Is Jonas Vingegaard the Best GC Rider Right Now? & What Is Paul Seixas' Market Rate? | THEMOVE+

Summary

THEMOVE+ Podcast Summary
Ep: Is Jonas Vingegaard the Best GC Rider Right Now? & What Is Paul Seixas' Market Rate?
Date: March 13, 2026 | Host: Lance Armstrong (not present in this episode), Spencer Martin, Johan Bernal

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Overview

This THEMOVE+ episode dives into the latest action from the professional cycling stage races Paris-Nice and Tirreno-Adriatico, with a particular focus on Jonas Vingegaard’s current dominance, the explosive emergence of riders like Isaac Del Toro and Paul Seixas, and the generational dynamics defining the general classification (GC) landscape. The hosts combine granular race analysis with hot takes on the business of cycling, notably contract speculation around promising young talent.

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Key Discussion Points & Race Recaps

1. Current State of the GC Hierarchy (00:55, 45:31, 45:51)

• Spencer and Johan’s Top GC Picks: If the Tour de France started Monday, today’s GC pecking order is: 1) Tadej Pogačar (“He’s the best in basically everything,” - Johan, 45:51), 2) Jonas Vingegaard, 3) Isaac Del Toro (though Del Toro is noted as an emerging force rather than an established podium lock).
• Generational Shift: The discussion centers on whether rising talents like Del Toro, Pelizari, and Seixas are truly closing the gap to the “big two,” or if Vingegaard and Pogačar are simply operating at another level.

2. Tirreno-Adriatico Highlights & Analysis (03:52–27:00)

• Mathieu van der Poel’s Stellar Form (04:10, 05:54):
  • Wins two stages in dominant fashion, signaling readiness for Milan-San Remo.
  • “There was a moment… where Del Toro attacked on the top of a climb and man, [van der Poel] was on that like, unbelievable.” — Johan (05:54)
• Isaac Del Toro Maturity (12:03, 14:49):
  • Manages the race with veteran guile, taking the leader’s jersey through perfectly timed efforts.
  • “Whatever he needs, he takes… Like the maturity and ability to manage a race is just blowing my mind.” — Spencer (14:49)
• Pelizari’s Breakout (17:06):
  • Demonstrating explosiveness and climbing prowess with major team backing.
  • “He’s matured… He gets the confidence of the team. Even Primož Roglič was working for him today.” — Johan (17:06)
• Mateo Jorgenson’s Consistency (14:20):
  • “He’s just looked so strong, like, comprehensively strong.” — Spencer (14:20)
• Roglič’s Declining Dominance (18:21, 18:46):
  • No longer the undisputed early season opener, possibly signaling a changing of the guard. “Not Peak Primos anymore. The young guard is coming.” — Johan (18:46)
• Wout van Aert’s Return (22:13–24:44)
  • Looks in good condition, but positioning errors and recent crashes are holding him back tactically.

3. Paris-Nice: Vingegaard’s Utter Domination (29:00–44:00)

• Unprecedented Winning Margin (29:03):
  • “He is leading more than 3 minutes, 22 seconds. I've never seen that at Paris Nice before.” — Spencer (29:03)
• Red Bull-BORA-hansgrohe’s Team Strength (32:04, 41:14):
  • The Van Dijke twins and Martinez work as a disciplined unit to all but guarantee the podium.
• Vingegaard’s Strategic Thinking & Clothing Innovation (39:30–42:53):
  • Vingegaard uses reverse rain jackets and custom-cut bib tights (idea from Victor Campenaerts) for mid-stage removal and warmth.
  • “That’s the race. Nobody waits for nobody.” — Johan (37:05)
  • “He doesn't seem the kind of guy who cares what it looks like. He just wants to be warm and fast.” — Johan (42:16)
• Analysis on Goodwill and Race Etiquette (37:05–38:25):
  • Red Bull's relentless tactics even after crashes spark mild debate, but are largely seen as ruthless professionalism fit for today’s peloton.

4. The Paul Seixas Question: Contract Value & Future (50:21–58:00)

• Market Frenzy Speculation:
  • “It could be conservatively five years, 50 million euros.” — Spencer (54:01)
  • Johan’s conservative take: “Maybe I’m out of it, but I would pay him 4 million.” (53:55)
• French Tax Reality (51:58):
  • Decathlon (his current team) faces high French employment taxes, requiring huge budgets to match international rivals.
  • Decathlon’s second sponsor, CMA CGM, is vastly wealthy (“five times bigger than Decathlon,” per Johan at 52:47), so “the money’s not a problem.”
• Progression vs. Proven Results:
  • Seixas’ hype is compared to Pogačar’s trajectory, noting the intoxicating allure of unknown ceiling.
  • “You can probably say that Seixas right now is on a higher level than Pogacar was in his first year. But at the same time, Pogacar won three stages at the Vuelta in his first year and finished third.” — Johan (58:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Van der Poel’s Form:
  “Mathieu van der Poel is very, very ready for Milan San Remo.” — Johan (05:54)
• On Modern Training and Peloton Level:
  “If you produce what you did two, three years ago in Strada Bianche, you're not in front.” — Johan (08:29)
• On Staying Warm for Paris-Nice:
  “That was the plan. The only thing is that… Jonas never found the time because the race was on and it never slowed down. So he rode with that bibs over. Yeah, it's not gonna become a trend, Spencer, that kind of fashion.” — Johan (40:32)
• On Vingegaard’s Ruthlessness:
  “That's the race. Nobody waits for nobody.” — Johan (37:05)
• On Paul Seixas’ Market Value:
  “People cannot control themselves around this guy. Four million euros. That's not even what Remco is making.” — Spencer (53:49)
• On Talent Proving and Hype:
  “The problem with proving yourself is then you know, and then you lose the magic… Paul Seixas can be anything you want him to be because he's not raced a Grand Tour yet.” — Spencer (58:00)

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Detailed Segment Timeline

• 00:55 – 03:52: Tour of current GC standings; introduction to key storylines and major stage winners.
• 03:52 – 12:10: Tirreno-Adriatico review — Van der Poel’s stage wins, Valgren’s comeback, time trial surprises.
• 12:10 – 22:20: Stage race GC battle: Del Toro, Pelizari, Jorgenson, Roglič. Deep dive into “killer instinct” and emergence of new leaders.
• 22:20 – 27:00: Van Aert’s recovery and positioning issues, classic form analysis.
• 29:00 – 44:00: Paris-Nice: Vingegaard’s dominance, Red Bull’s tactics, adverse weather adaptation, innovative clothing, team strategies.
• 45:31 – 50:45: The big question: Who is the world’s best GC rider right now, and are we seeing a new hierarchy?
• 50:45 – 59:39: Paul Seixas: contract speculation, hype vs. results, French financial realities, and the dynamics of the transfer market.
• 59:39 – 64:45: Ayuso injury update, INEOS's new title sponsor, business model of top teams.
• 64:45 – End: Financial arms race among big teams, perspectives on Seixas’ potential, final thoughts, preview of Monday’s recap.

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Analysis & Takeaways

• Vingegaard’s Massive Margin at Paris-Nice signals ominous Tour de France prospects, but hosts caution against over-indexing on early season domination.
• Decathlon’s War Chest and French tax pitfalls reveal the high-stakes, globalized economics now shaping talent retention and rider salaries.
• Paul Seixas’ Meteoric Hype underscores cycling’s age of “next big thing” fever — with heavy financial and narrative investments before Grand Tour proof.
• Old Guard vs. New Wave: While riders like Roglič remain relevant, the new generation is rapidly learning how to win — and manage — major stage races.
• Fashion or Function? Vingegaard’s bib-stripping weather hacks might not make Vogue, but in pro cycling, warmth and innovation win cold, rainy races.

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For Fans & Newcomers

This episode provides a vivid, insider snapshot of today’s racing and business landscape: who’s peaking, who’s fading, and what’s at stake both on the road and in the backroom contract wars. Whether you’re tracking Milan San Remo favorites, betting on GC futures, or just curious about how pro teams think and adapt, this conversation is a packed, lively deep-dive.

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Next episode drops Monday — expect more wild plot twists from the world’s most unpredictable sport.

Transcript

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[Spencer Martin]

Where do you like if you had to rank the sports top GC riders like currently right now, if the Tour de France starts started on Monday, who do you think are the best GC riders right now?

[Johan Bernal]

Well first of all there's today Pogachar. He's the best in basically everything. And then I mean if you look at it for me personally, quality wise, the two guys who are now leading Tirreno and and Parinis are the next two. I think that's the top three. Del Toro probably even in the Tour when he has to work for today he probably won't finish third. But you know, quality wise, I think he's up there.

[Spencer Martin]

Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with the Ohan Berniel. We are going through the news and racing recaps of the week the past week in professional cycling. We have Perry nice running right now. Jonas Finnegaard dominating the field. And we have Torino Adriatico with Isaac del Toro taking the race lead from Julio Pelizari. Johan, I'm just going to run through the stage winners really quick. It's, it's pretty jarring because the last time we spoke on Saturday, Tede Pugacher had ruined professional cycling. Everyone's up in arms. This is boring. A mere few days later, Pagacha is old news. It is now Jonas Finnegaard Sport get, get out of the way Tata. You're done. You're washed up. But if we cast our minds all the way back to Sunday the day after Strabianchi Luke Lamperti American who we called out actually I think two weeks before, a week before as having two top tens at the opening weekend. Amloop and Kerna win stage one. Max Cantor win stage two. Team time trial Stage three won by Ineos Grenadiers slash Kevin Vlon because it was kind of a this goofy time trial, team time trial where you take individual times and remember that because that's going to come around at the tutor fronts. Jonas Vinegard win stage four. Terrible rainy day. He just dominates everybody. Pretty interesting with Red Bull pulling him long the whole time. Stage five yesterday Jonas Vinegard. It's nice and he says I can win on, on nice days too. Just drops everybody rides away solo. Extends his lead. Harold Tejada on XDS Astana wins today. Kind of a good interesting move. But then before we talk about that Toreno Stage 1. Felipe Ogana wins the individual time trial to start the race. Matthew Vanderpoel win stage 2. Tobias Lund Anderson on Decathlon wins stage 3. Matthew Vanderpoel wins again stage 4 yesterday. We should talk about that. That was kind of an interesting select group at the end. And then Michael Valgrin on EF today winning ahead of Isaac del Toro and Matteo Jorgensen. His first win since 2021. Johan, I believe he, he's had a lot of injury issues un. Unclear to me. But yeah, what, what are all the issues he's had and then I assume this is got to be a major win for him.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, I mean Michael Valry, let's not forget this is an ex winner of Amstel Gold race. Was also. Did he win AM Gold?

[Spencer Martin]

I think he did 2018.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. Didn't he also win at News Blood when he won?

[Spencer Martin]

Yes, that same year and he was

[Johan Bernal]

third in the world championships in Leuven also. Yes, I do remember. So yeah, he had a crash. I do remember he had a crash really. I mean career and threatening crash. They kept him on the team. He actually I think one year he went down to the development team of EF and then occasionally raced some, some races with, with the World Tour team. But. But yeah, I mean he's, he's, he's back. I think he was top 10 in Strade Bianche if I'm not mistaken. Or he was up there in the final at least. So yeah, I mean he, you could see. I mean he was from a breakaway. He dropped a la Philippe on, on his terrain. Of course we you know Alaphilippe is, is not the a la Philippe anymore. We know from his, his prime time but, but still it's Julia la Philippe. So really nice victory. But yeah, Tyrino has been really interesting. Spencer, you know the time trial first Ghana wins. No surprise. We were looking at you know what, what the GC riders would do. I think Except Karapas, who did a terrible time trial. Everybody else was where we expected them to be. And then, yeah, Mathieu van der Poel, man, two stage wins. That first win was, was very impressive because there was some gravel and some uphill at the end. And he was the only guy of his stature up there with all the climbers. And, and he won. He won against Pelizari and El Toro. Difficult to win for him, but he did win.

[Spencer Martin]

Hard fought victory.

[Johan Bernal]

You rarely see him win like this, but you know, he, it shows that he was on the limit. He was on the limit. But, but yeah, and then, and then, yeah, yesterday's victory was, was even more impressive. You know, he went the way he. There was a break, I mean, there was a break first, then he caught the break and there was a select group with all the GC riders and some sprinters. But man, when he took off, that was, I mean, I thought when he left it was 300 meters to go, 300 meters to go was headwinds. And so that was really impressive. So I made a little note that said Mathieu van der Poel is very, very ready for Milan San Remo. Not just because of that sprint, but there was a moment in yesterday's stage where Del Toro attacked on the top of a climb and man, he was on that like, you know, like unbelievable. So I think it looks good for him. For Milan San Remo. There's, in my opinion, only one rider who can beat him as Vaccar and he needs to drop him. We've already seen that in the past. It's not easy to drop Van der Poel on the climbs like Milan San Remo. And I do think that his condition right now is probably a bit better than last year's condition. Last year he did. Also, Tirino didn't manage to win a stage. Now he won two already and he looks really, really powerful and comfortable. Now the question is, you know, how much better is Pugacha than last year? I have an impression that he is better than last year. So actually I know he's better than last year. Little side note, as you know, we know we, we were at Strade Bianche for four days on this trip and we did the Gran Fondo on Sunday. And so in the morning when we went to the start, I ran into Mauro Jannetti who was there. He didn't ride, but he was there. So I stopped and talked to him a little bit. And he did mention that what they've seen in terms of numbers from Pokhacha is an improvement compared to last year. So it's not the same level. It's better at the same time. I also know that the rest of the peloton is also better than last year.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, we looked at. I think you said on the show, you're like, oh, I bet he's about the same as last year. And then, oops, should have checked the Velon account because they had his power numbers from Strada and he was 40 watts higher than last year. I would say, though, he was away with.

[Johan Bernal]

That's to take with a grain of Salt. I think 40 watts is. That's a. That's a big. That's a big improvement. But he is better. He is on a higher level. I did speak with other people from teams after Strade Bianche, and they said that the riders say that the peloton has risen the level again, so that most of the riders are on a higher level. If you produce what you did two, three years ago in Strada Bianche, you're not in front. That keeps getting higher and higher.

[Spencer Martin]

Have we calibrated these power meters? Can this be true? I mean, Tom Danielson had a theory that, like, everyone's trained the way they're training. They get better and better. Like they're stacking training. And then back in the day, you know, you'd be good and then people would take like three months off and then would fight to get back where they were the year before that. Maybe that wasn't the best way to be training to improve every year. Kind of an interesting theory. We should say stage four. We kind of glossed over this, but Matthew Vanderpoel was there. That was an elite group because Mateo Jorgensen went to the front on. It was a final climb. Shortish, final climb. Mateo gets the front and he's a little out of the GC because he's currently. He was sitting fourth at the time he crashed. You mentioned Vanderpoel winning the. The. The stage two uphill finish on the gravel, electric, super exciting. But Mateo was right behind Vanderpoel crash. So he lost a little bit of time there, but he gets to the front and absolutely destroys the field. The guy looks like he's in incredible shape. And then, yeah, as you say, Del Toro attacked over the top. Vanderpoel marked him. And then Mateo just got back on the front and held the race together until the final kilometer. Really, really impressive from both Mateo to do that and then Vanderpoel to be there. It is kind of interesting to me. Do you Remember? So last year you said Matthew Vanderpoel doesn't win any stages here. And then obviously has an amazing spring win. San Ramo wins E3 wins the Bay third at Flanders. Do you remember 2021? Matthew Vanderpoel or Matteo Van der Poel? It's what I always want to call him because that's what George calls him. Matthew Vanderpoel has one of the most impressive Torino Adriaticos I've ever seen. Remember, it's like the 55k solo breakaway in front of Pagacha.

[Johan Bernal]

And then he.

[Spencer Martin]

He has one of his worst springs of his career. Spring Classics. Is there something to this? Where. And today, to be fair, he did. He did sit up. He didn't like, fight. He probably could have fought.

[Johan Bernal]

He tried. He tried at first, and then when he saw that it was really too hard, he just didn't insist.

[Spencer Martin]

So you can almost see him metering his effort. Um, I assume that's what he's doing.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, I mean, listen, I mean, if you won, if you. So he won at News Blood, right? He wins two stages now, basically. The rest of the Tyrino, he can just cruise and just, you know, monitor his condition and make sure he recovers. And he's fresh from Milan, San Remo. I mean, there's. There's no pressure on him anymore now. I mean, if he gets another opportunity, he'll take it, but I don't think there's any more opportunities because tomorrow is a super hard stage, probably the hardest of the whole.

[Spencer Martin]

Do you think he could be fighting for the GC here if he really wanted to?

[Johan Bernal]

No, I don't think so. Not with this, not with these guys. I mean, there's. He could be top 10, but he can't be top three. I don't think so.

[Spencer Martin]

And we should say the GC is after stage five. Isaac del Toro taking the lead. I don't know if you noticed this. Del Toro sat up yesterday, didn't get a time bonus. Pill has already gotten second and got a time bonus. Pretty clever there.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But Del Toro is now in the race league because he attacked. Also. Del Toro, he just. Whatever he needs, he takes. He's like, oh, I need 20 seconds. Let me get 20 seconds. In a half a kilometer on a climb, Del Toro is leading. Pelizar's second at 23 seconds back. Mateo Jorgensen, who followed Del Toro today, is now third at 34 seconds back. Roglich fourth at 44 seconds back. Looks pretty good. Julia Ciccone fifth at 105 back. So as you said tomorrow is the mountain state, the toughest mountain stage, pretty hard finish. 3.3.2 K, 9% average to the finish.

[Johan Bernal]

They do that climb three times, Spencer. I think if I look, if I look correctly at the point, it's like

[Spencer Martin]

a big old loop they do in the last.

[Johan Bernal]

It's very hard. They do a horse category climb in the, at the beginning of the stage already. But, yeah, I mean, I think Del Toro has this, you know, unless he has an off day. Funny, actually, to see that, you know, he. I wonder what the atmosphere is there in their, in their building, you know, so he basically kills his neighbor, his, his first neighbor in uae, Tiberi, and now he kills his other neighbor, Peliziari, in Tyreno. They seem to get along very well. You know, it's, it's race, but it must be, it must be strange to basically have the race, you know, and try to take the leader's jersey away off both of your neighbors and your training partners, because they train together, you know, they live together, train together, have the same agent. They're on three different teams. And yeah, Tiberi was in the lead and looked on his way to victory in uae, Del Toro didn't let that happen. And now, I mean, we could, I mean, it was not decided because it was only two seconds, but, man, what a writer. Man, what a, what a killer. You know, the guy just knows how to win races. You know, I mean, he didn't win today, but I think he's gonna win. He's gonna win this. And, yeah, I mean, he just, he dropped everybody. And then Matteo Jurgensen was first dropped and came back and then actually drove it, you know, to, to, to get on the, get on the podium. Uh, so Jorgensen is definitely in good shape. Very good shape.

[Spencer Martin]

He's not going to win Paris. Nice, I think, for the third year in the row. But he might be better. I mean, I've been so impressed with him this week. I, I, it sounds goofy because he's in third place, but without that crash, and he's just looked so strong, like, comprehensively strong.

[Johan Bernal]

Very, very powerful. Yeah. And yesterday, let's not forget yesterday, he, he did all the work for wout. Yeah, right. With the stage, you know, so, so, yeah, he's in really, really good condition.

[Spencer Martin]

One thing about Del Toro that, yeah, he didn't win today, but almost that really impresses me is what, 22 didn't have great GC success until the Giro last year. He's not really experienced stage racer. It just kind of feels like he's picked it up. Like he can meter these efforts so well today. Just do. He just does what he needs to do to take the lead, to take a little chunk. Doesn't over do it. Doesn't take too many risks. Let's like Valren wins. That's fine. I'm second. I'm now in the race lead. I'm going to go into tomorrow. Like the maturity and ability to manage a race is. It's blowing my mind watching him get better at it by the day.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. Now he looks like a really seasoned professional. I mean, he is already a seasoned professional, even if it's only his second year. But the guy doesn't make many mistakes. You know, like, you could say yesterday was maybe a mistake, but you know, it. It was two seconds.

[Spencer Martin]

I would say the mistake was, did you see me kind of grabbed Christian by like his neck and I think he was like, hey, man, you're going to attack inside the final game. We're going to win this. He probably should have just had him leading him out for the podium, right?

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, maybe he already knew it wasn't going to come down to seconds. You know, if you look at today and then especially tomorrow, you know, those stages are really, really hard. You know, look. Look who's. Look who's back. Spencer. Look who's back after an absence.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, Bobby.

[Johan Bernal]

Mr. Bobby's back. You know, he. He wanted. He just said he wanted to come on screen and say hi to our listeners. You know, I know, I know everybody loves Bobby and we've gotten comments that they want to see him again, so here he is. Hey, Bobby, what do you think of Parini Centiriono Adriatico? What do you think? It sounds like he doesn't care.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, we'll get to Parry. Nice. His thoughts on Paris might match mine. That's not been my favorite race to watch. Yeah, well, and we should say, I mean, Del Toro, we're. Well, at the end of this episode, we'll talk about the greater state of things. But I also think Julio Pelizari, I've been really. I've been impressed with how explosive he is. I knew he was a good climber. I did not know he could ride like this.

[Johan Bernal]

Listen, he definitely made a big step forward in the off season compared to last year. He's matured. You know, he's. He gets the confidence of the team. I mean, even Primo Roglic was working for him today whenever he could, he hardly could. But whatever he could, he could. He did something and so, yeah, he's establishing himself as, you know, one of the. One of the leaders. He had Jay Hindley working for him in. In at some point, ex Tiro winner. So definitely. I mean, if you think about where he was two or three years ago, wasn't he on Bardiani?

[Spencer Martin]

He was on Bardiani two years ago, yeah. That's when he got caught. Remember he got caught by Pagachar?

[Johan Bernal]

Oh, yeah. And then Pogacha gave him his glasses. Right? That's him, right?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, that's him.

[Johan Bernal]

He come a long way since then.

[Spencer Martin]

I know, Yeah. I mean, he's really. I know we talk about a lot about Paul Seychelles and Del Toro, but he's another guy with circle. Like, very good stage racer and learning

[Johan Bernal]

quickly and also, you know, like making step by step program. He didn't come like to the front, like straight and straight ahead, but you can see that the guy's improving and he's super strong. Super strong, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

How do we feel about. So Roglic is in fourth. I think he's looked pretty good, but I will say like 20. Like, think of peak Primos. He used to just show up at these early season stage races. I'm going back through his seasons right now and just win. You just win the first stage race. Boom, easy done. The last few years, it's not been so automatic. And I wonder if this is a waning of his ability or this is

[Johan Bernal]

not Peak Primos anymore. We have to, you know, we have to accept it. You know, the young. The young guard is coming and Primos is still there. You know, he has the experience. You know, he's in Fort now and we've hardly seen him. Right. He's there.

[Spencer Martin]

But.

[Johan Bernal]

But yeah, I mean, I think he will also accept. That's funny, actually. I just saw an interview of Primos from the day before the start. I mean, the guy is just something else. So there's this. This journalist and by the way, you know, I'm gonna say it here, Eurosport, you guys need to do a better job by picking these guys who interview the writers in English. I watched both Parinis and Tirreno and it is not acceptable. Some of the guys, when they're really on the limit, they just finished and they don't understand the question because the guys speak very bad English. There's one French guy and one Spanish guy. I don't know who it is. But they need to do a better job, man, at picking guys who speak proper English. Anyways, the guy asks Primos, you know, about the Climbing of today, the finishing climb. And he said, yeah, because, you know, 20, 23, you won here. He said, ah, which climb? I don't know. Yeah, I don't remember. Oh, that's the climb, huh? Oh, it's pretty hard, huh? The guy just doesn't remember. He did not remember that was the climb where he won the stage. Normally, no, bike riders are pretty good with photographic memory of places or stages they've won. Of course, Primos has won a lot of races.

[Spencer Martin]

It's like 100 race wins.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, I mean, I've had conversations now during our time there in Tuscany with Johnny Buno and, And especially with Chipolini, man, the detail that Chipolini certain. I mean, Cipollini won a lot of races. More than a hundred, more than 100. I don't know how many, but definitely more than a hundred. There's certain details that he, he, he, he tells me that. I said, wow. You know, it's, it's, it's, you know, really in their mind, like, you know, like burned in their mind, you know, they, they know all the details. So anyway, Primos is a bit different, you know, Sometimes I don't think, you know, sometimes I don't think, you know which stage it is.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, that's true. He's a website, by the way, with Merch. It's very funny. Like, the way it's written, like, he's a legitimately funny person. I think that tries to pretend to be boring. I was debating with Bradley Wiggins if. Do you think Mark Cavendish can remember every one of his Tour wins or has he won so many Tours stages he's forgotten them?

[Johan Bernal]

No, the 30. He will remember them for sure.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Some people, it's. It's freakish almost how well they remember certain races, certain details.

[Johan Bernal]

Details, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, anything else on Toreno before we go to Paris? Anything else that stuck out to you?

[Johan Bernal]

No, not really. Not really. I mean, we're. We'll see tomorrow. Tomorrow is the decisive stage. So I say, unless Del Toro has an off day, which is possible. We saw today Tiberi had an off day. No, he was.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. It's gotta be sick.

[Johan Bernal]

You'd think. Yeah, yeah, he had a really bad day.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. Like, shockingly bad, I think. What, what about Webinar? What have you thought of him at this race?

[Johan Bernal]

I think, I think Bernard is in good condition. I think he. I saw a few interview interviews of him also. He was disappointed yesterday, you know, to not be able to win the stage. I Think he, I mean, he, he admitted he made a mistake by wanting to close that gap and then vulnerable, you know, just blew by him. But he's, he's okay with his form. I did speak with some staff members there at the start of Strada Bianche about Walt and they said, you know, that he needed Strade Bianche and, and Tyreno to really get to the top of his form. So it looks good. He's, he's, you know, he's there, you know, he's there when like yesterday on the climb he was there. He was suffering, but he was up

[Spencer Martin]

there when there's GC guys getting dropped, like Richard Camp has dropped.

[Johan Bernal]

And also I think it says a lot that, you know, Jorgensen was setting the tempo and dropping almost everybody and he was setting the pace for a while. So yeah, yeah, I think he's, he's where he has to be in terms of his, his race form. Don't know what that's going to be for Milan San Remo. I do see, I do see that he had this issue in Strada Bianche and a little bit also in the gravel stage of Tirino. I keep seeing these like, problems with positioning at the entrance of a critical point, which is obviously something for, for is very important and for the classics too. So that's something we've seen from vote, you know, and it's only normal after so many crashes. It's kind of, you know, logical that you, you think twice before you have to rub shoulders and elbows and knees with and heads with everybody else to have to fight for your place at the entrance of a critical moment in the race.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, like stage two. He was climbing really well, but he just started. If he starts in a better position, maybe he's with Vanderpoel. I noticed. I remember Roubaix last year. He was really struggling with putting himself in the spot he needed to be in. We'll see, man. We'll see how that goes. I wouldn't read too much into. I wasted a lot of time reading a lot into Torino performances and then

[Johan Bernal]

they, condition wise, I think he is where he has to be.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, no, I agree. I think he's looked, I mean, the man had surgery on his ankle not that long ago, so.

[Johan Bernal]

And then got sick before the opening weekend. Yeah, then he did the Grand Prixame had a puncture, I guess, in the final. So this is basically his, his first competition.

[Spencer Martin]

Do you think he looked a little in the final yesterday? A little too, like. Let me close these gaps for you, Matthew. I, I. Let me get out like it. It's a little overeager, perhaps.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, I, I think, I think that was he. Yeah, he definitely made mistakes there. You shouldn't have. You shouldn't have done that, especially knowing that. Well, it was Ghana. Know who attacked. Yeah, it was Ghana.

[Spencer Martin]

Ghana. Yeah, Ghana looked pretty good. So. But a little bit of a potential preview of the final straight at San Ramo. Something to think about as we get excited for that.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And then do you have something else on TRO before we take a quick break?

[Johan Bernal]

No, I think we've covered everything. SPENCER ON okay, let's take a quick

[Spencer Martin]

break and then we'll talk. Pary. Nice, everybody. This episode is brought to by hims. You've got places to be. Sitting in a waiting room for hair loss treatment is not one of them. HIMS makes expert care accessible on your schedule, so you can skip the line and focus on feeling like yourself again. HIMS offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients that work, including chews, oral medications, serums and sprays. HIMS can help since Dr. Trusted ingredients like finasteride and minoxidil can stop further hair loss and believe it or not, even regrow hair in as little as three to six months. And HIMS thinks you shouldn't have to go out of your way to feel like yourself, which is why they bring expert care straight to you to your door. With 100% online access to personalized treatment plans that put your goals first. No hidden fees, no surprise costs, just real personalized care on your schedule. So for simple online access to personalized and affordable care for hair loss, ED, weight loss and more, visit hims.com the move that's himss.com the move h I m s.com themove for your free online visit today. Featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information. Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. Everybody. This episode is brought to you by Gusto. Small business life means hustling and figuring it all out a lot of times on your own. But you don't have to spend your evenings guessing at tax forms or tracking down onboarding docs. Gusto handles all of that so you can spend your time on the parts of your business that you actually love. Like for me, watching pro cycling, breaking it down, writing about it, talking about it. Gusto is an online payroll in benefit Software built for small businesses. If you own a small business, you're going to want Gusto. I have a small business beyond the peloton, and I was struggling before I got Gusto. And when April gets closer, I still still feel the anxiety I used to feel while running my business without Gusto. Have I withheld taxes? What do I owe? Have I broken the law? I hope not. Well, now payroll runs are automatic. Taxes are handled, and there are no out of the blue surprise payments. Just unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price. And all the stuff that used to be annoying offer letters, onboarding, direct deposit. It's all baked right in. The other big thing, peace of mind. When you're running a small business, the last thing you want to do is wonder if you messed up a form or missed a payment. Gusto just makes it feel handled. If you're tired of admin work creeping into your nights and weekends, Gusto is honestly one of the easiest upgrades you can make. I cannot recommend it enough. I was spending a lot of my nights and weekends just worrying about, have I withheld taxes? Well, with Gusto, I don't have to worry about it. So try gusto [e-mail] the move get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll. @gusto.com the Move that's G U S T O dot com the move okay, we're back. Johan. I would say the. Usually the maybe more prestigious race of the two, but the one I've not enjoyed as much between the two this year. Perry Niece led by Jonas Finnegaard. I. I think the largest. Let me pull up his margin of lead here. It is. Unbelievable. He is leading more than 2 minutes, 3 minutes min. 3 and a half minutes, 3 minutes, 22 seconds.

[Johan Bernal]

Wow.

[Spencer Martin]

I've never seen that at Paris N before.

[Johan Bernal]

No. Par is a race usually won by very, very small margins. Yeah, that's. That's pure dominance. Pure dominance. Definitely, you know, showed up. I remember, Spencer, you. A few weeks ago, you, you know, you looked at the program, I think before he added Paris N, you said you were worried about Jonas Vingegaard, if he could get ready for the Giro. I'm asking you today, are you still worried?

[Spencer Martin]

I don't know. I don't know. Not quite sure we've seen enough from them. I think I have so many messages in my inbox of like, can Tada keep up? I'm like, I'm not quite ready to go there yet, but I think we could like, auto sim, the Giro I don't even know if we need to race it. Like, this guy looks unbelievable.

[Johan Bernal]

He looks strong. He looks strong. Very strong. Certainly shows that, you know, he's ready. I mean, it shows that he was definitely preparing the season to start really well at uae, then had to cancel it because of that crash on training. And then when they decided to add Paris, Nice. It's because they knew he was ready, otherwise he wouldn't race. But yeah, I mean, very, very dominant. I mean, first of all, Lamperti wins, then what's his name? Kanter wins and then Ineos wins the time trial. That was the, the team time trial. Spencer was interesting. Ineos winning. It's been a while since they won a team time trial. Yeah, I think quite a while. So that was a really, really nice win. Of course, you know, if you have guys like Darling there and, and Kratkovsky and, and what's his name?

[Spencer Martin]

Kevin. Kevin.

[Johan Bernal]

But yeah, that's how they win before little track. But for me, the most impressive performance of that day. Spencer was down.

[Spencer Martin]

That was wild.

[Johan Bernal]

From, from decathlon. That was insane. You know, he was, he was by himself the last five kilometers and he beats Visma.

[Spencer Martin]

You've only finished 11 seconds behind Ineos.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, that was crazy. That was crazy impressive.

[Spencer Martin]

He said. Did you see his quote? He said it. I don't know if this actually mathematically is true. He's like, oh, no, I, I thought it was easier because I didn't have to go so slow with everybody else.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, that's a bit over the top, I think.

[Spencer Martin]

Could be something to it, I guess.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, well, he's a, he's a great time trialist. You know, he did win, he did win the time trial in the Giro. No. If I'm not mistaken.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he won a stage last year.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. Dutch champion several times already. Great time, Tris, but still, Deon has a great team. They had the best intermediate time, by the way. And so, so, yeah, maybe, maybe, I don't know, maybe Neos beat it.

[Spencer Martin]

But at the time, was that on purpose, you think? Like, did they. Was that a tactic? Like we're going to go out here? I'm just.

[Johan Bernal]

I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean, but the guys were just exploding left, right and center. It was crazy. So. So, yeah, that was the most impressive performance of that day. And then Spencer, we have stage four. Unexpectedly, you know, the whole peloton blows apart with the wind. We had crashes, you know. Are you sure? Crashes out McNulty and McNulty crashes also, right? McNulty crashes. Is he still in the race?

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, that's a good question. I mean, that was like unlike anything I've ever seen. Yeah, it was. First of all, it really motivated me to have you hook me up with another way to watch races because not only could we not see anything because there was everyone's in black rain jackets, there's water on the camera in the US we're going to, to commercial every 10 seconds. Like I can't figure out what's happening in this race. Yeah. Okay, let's look at the start list. Brandon McNulty also, you're not going to believe this, but the splits from that time trial ineos 15 seconds faster than decathlon at the T1 and Dan Houl is actually faster than an ineos to the finish. Three seconds faster than the second half. That's crazy. Brandon McNulty is not here. No, no. So, yeah, Red Bull was on the front and I've never seen so many. It was like the whole field was just disappearing because everybody was crashing out behind them.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, I mean, it was crosswind and then there was a downhill and then there was the crash. Unfortunately, the yellow jersey. Ayuso, who was one of the co favorites. Right. Of Parinis, crashed out and had to abandon. So. But then we saw Red Bull doing an amazing team performance and finally, there were four riders. There was the two Van Dyke brothers and Dani Martinez and Jonas Swingegaard. So Jonas just sat on, didn't take a pull and nobody asked anything. They just kept going. I mean, you could look at it both ways, right? I mean, you could say, oh, why do they do this? But at the same time, I kind of think it was okay to do it because they, they were assuring the podium, which, you know, they, they. I think they know, they know that Martinez is not going to beat Vingegaard. No way. You know, with the stages that were still ahead. So by them pulling so hard, I mean, Martinez also didn't pull. They took, they kept taking this time and they basically. Unless, unless Martinez cracks and they basically assured second spot or third spot, you know, so in a race where there's a big, big favorite being the next, the, the, the best of the rest is kind of a small victory. And it's been a while since we've seen Danny Martinez in the front of

[Spencer Martin]

a big race, it's big for Martinez to get second here. I mean, that's a big result. I would also say I know people don't like it and it Looked weird. I was, I would say during the race, I was like, what are they doing? Have one of the Van Dyke. Why are you doing this? The more I think about it, I think it's the right. I think if you just viewed it as what, let's increase our chances of winning this race, I think this is the right move because if something happens to Jonas, this is what we've been saying, like just race for a second. These guys are so good. You're not going to beat them. If something happens to them, then you win. So I think that's just the. From a Game 3 perspective, they're doing the right thing. Even if it looks odd.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. Yeah. And still I don't think, I don't think the only thing I don't understand, Spencer is, I mean, yeah, I mean when Jonas went with, what was it a kilometer ago? Maybe 700 meters, maybe kilometer to go or something. Yeah. If Martinez couldn't even react, he was. He could barely stay with one day.

[Spencer Martin]

I know. He could barely beat his teammate.

[Johan Bernal]

So you must feel that you must have communicated with your teammate. Hey, I'm done. You know, I'm cooked. I can't get out of the saddle anym anymore. It was an incredible hard stage with the rain, the cold, the speed. But at the same time then, okay, what else could they have done? Right? So if one of the van Ders would have attacked, Jonas would have followed and then dropped him.

[Spencer Martin]

There was dropped him and he's in a worse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If they try to get Q with it, Martinez gets dropped earlier and is in worst position. Yeah. So yeah, you're right. They needed that worked out perfectly because Martinez was so screwed. He just had to get as close as possible to the finish. Also, Van. Do you know who the Van Dyke twins used to be on a team with Visma? Jonas Vindergaard. Yeah, it's a little secret reunion there. Quick question for you on this. I personally like, I liked the way they raced. I think that was good. Is this going to burn any goodwill? Like there was all these people crashing and they're just like, see ya, we're out of here.

[Johan Bernal]

Oh, I mean, that's the race. I mean, because they were pulling already. They were on the front already. So obviously they knew there was wind, it was rainy, you know, dangerous downhill. If you're as. As a team, if you're already taking action and the action was planned and it was clear that this was, you know, planned already. If they crashed, you know, then that's, that's it you know, I mean, you could maybe 15, 20 years ago, you could say, you could have said, okay, well, you know, but in today's cycling, that's just not the case. Nobody waits for nobody.

[Spencer Martin]

It is a little funny to me that even in the recent past stages have been neutralized at Pary Nice that are similar to this stage, and then this somehow is not neutralizable.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, it's because it was individuals who crashed. There was no massive. There was not a big group of people crashing. There was two here, three there. Okay. It happens to be the race leader. But there was not like 10 or 15 guys going down all at once. And especially if the race is on, it's difficult to stop that, to make that decision. If it's because of a bad corner or something, or you could say, okay, it's the parkours and we have to take this into account. But this was on a straight road because of the speed, the wind, whatever it was. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And Ineos, I know we're going to get to what people and I know everyone wants us to talk about the bibs. We're going to get there in a second. But.

[Johan Bernal]

Oh, the vineyard guard bibs.

[Spencer Martin]

But before. So Ineos gets totally screwed here because Kevin Vuklon misses the split like before the TV coverage comes on. He's not that far back. He's like 40 seconds back. But Oscar Onley's in the front group, so they don't chase. Oscar Onley crashes, has to change his bike is some reason not allowed to then draft back on. Maybe because the group's too small. And then they lose that him in the front group. And then they miss their chance to chase back on. Like, really bad luck there for Minos. Yeah, but, yeah. And we're treated to the site. We get near the end. Jonas, who clearly is very skilled at riding in cold weather, dressing for cold weather. He's kind of disrobing for the final climb. And he noticed he had this like, rain jacket on backwards. That's a guy that knows what he's doing. And then he. His bibs are off and then he puts his bib straps back on and it's over. His jersey kind of looks like Borat. Do you, do you know the story behind this? I was confused.

[Johan Bernal]

I do know the story behind it. I, I heard it. So it was a plan, an idea of our good friend Victor Campena.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, this had you see this and you know Campinarts has something.

[Johan Bernal]

So what they did, what they did is this. They must have decided this in the bus. When they saw the weather company Arts came up with this idea and Sanyona said, you know, I want that. So they. Basically what happened is so he got a lot of clothes on, right? So he had a rain jacket on top of his race jersey and then on like backwards. And then on top of that he had like a bigger jacket. And so Kampenaerts cut the chamois out of the long bibs to not have to not ride with two shams. And the idea was. The idea was to at some point in the race maybe take it off, you know, maybe take it off on the bike or whatever. And they cut. They. So they cut it in front and they cut it in the back so

[Spencer Martin]

he could like superman it off, right.

[Johan Bernal]

Basically strip it off, right. So you could basically break it and get it off. That was the plan. The only thing is that, you know, Jo Yonas never found the time because the race was on and it never slowed down. So he was. Then he took his top off and then he rode with that pips over. That was. Yeah, yeah, it's not gonna, it's not gonna become a trend, Spencer, that, that, that, that kind of fashion. I don't think, I don't think anybody will take that as an example. But listen, they stayed warm and that might be the key to the victory because Danny Martinez was. Was he riding long pants? I don't think so.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't think so. Everybody looked like they were frozen except the.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. And. Well, actually, you know what? I saw somewhere that Red Bull had special skin suits for that stage to ride in the rain. So special material, like waterproof skin suits.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting.

[Johan Bernal]

They didn't look like they. I mean, the Van Dyke brothers. I mean, okay, they're big guys, they're Dutch. You know, they. They've used to, you know, they're used to ride in cold weather. But they didn't look like they were called these guys. They were going.

[Spencer Martin]

They were flying. It actually looked like they. It looked like they were riding in a different weather condition than everybody else. And there could be something to that. I. It shows you. I think it's a crime against humanity. At least the fashion that they committed. But pretty interesting. And it shows an innovate like a level of innovation like let we need to stay warm. How do we stay warm? And they came up with a solution. I think more teams should think like that. I think a lot of teams don't do it because you think, well, it's going to look goofy. We can't do that. But clearly it Worked.

[Johan Bernal]

I don't think Jonas cares too much about what it looks like. He doesn't seem that kind of guy. He just wants to be warm and safe and fast. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So he's rewarded for, for that. I still have doubts. If you could rip a bib tight off, that was the side of the road, I think.

[Johan Bernal]

I think so, Spencer. Because if you look, they cut it like, they cut it all the way, like as low as possible, front and back. So the, the, the, the, the plan was to just rip it, rip it off and then just basically take it off as a leg warmer.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I guess you just rip it in two and then. Yeah, it's pretty interesting.

[Johan Bernal]

That's something that only company Arts can come up with. I mean, the guy's just, you know, very innovative. You know, he just always thinks about details. But it worked, I would say when

[Spencer Martin]

he got signed to that team. I'm kind of a weird signing. I don't really see it. And then, dude, it's really paid dividends.

[Johan Bernal]

He's on an unbelievable level. Like yesterday's stage, the work he did there.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

And setting that pace, you know, while he was, I mean, and the guy gives it all, like when he pulls off, he just goes in parking mode, just standing still. But I would say 50% of the climbers are dropped already when he, when he, when he pulls off.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, he's incredible. And he's giving them, he's coming up with their, with their warming technology on the bus in his spare time.

[Johan Bernal]

The last guy to lead out, Jonas in the, in the team time trial.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Yeah, man. He's a very, very useful rider. Very good rider for them. Let's take another quick break and then I have a few questions for you about what this all means, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem like they want to keep my money too. After years of overpaying for wireless, I finally got fed up with crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees, and free perks that actually cost more in the long run than I was getting and switched to Mint Mobile. Now I'm saving tons of money every month and my service is even better. So stop paying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. Mint exists purely to fix that. Mint is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data, an unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Bring your own phone number too. Activate it with an EIM in minutes. So easy. And start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. So if you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] the move that's mintmobile.com themove upfront payment of $45 or 3 months 5 gigabyte plan required. New customer offer is first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra cement Mobile for details.

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[Spencer Martin]

Okay Johan, we're back. So we just went through the races having all of this in mind. Where do you like if you had to rank the sports top GC riders like currently right now, if the Tour de France starts started on Monday, who do you think are the best GC riders right now?

[Johan Bernal]

Well, first of all there's Tadepogachar. He's the best in basically everything. And then if you look at it for me personally, quality wise, the two guys who are now leading Tirino and and Parinis are the next two. I think that's the top three. Del probably even in the Tour when he has to work for today he probably won't finish third. But you know, quality wise I think he's up there.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I, I agree with you. I think today number one and, and by today I mean today. But I think his name is actually Today and Jonas number two. I think this has been a big week. Maybe it's not a surprise. I thought that we would see the shifting of generations where one of you so would be beating Jonas.

[Johan Bernal]

We won't know. Right. But I personally don't think. I mean this the level Jonas Wingergaard is on right now, I don't think there's anybody else except Bogachar who can, who can, you know, match that or get better. I don't see for the moment I don't see Ayuso. I don't see Belizari or Uglich or, or Del Toro. Jonas is still a step above those guys, I think.

[Spencer Martin]

What about. No, no, no, I agree. I agree with you. I think this is been, this has been the biggest week anyone's ever had to announce that they're going to get second at the Tour fronts Because he looks.

[Johan Bernal]

He looks really good again. You know, if you're in second position and something happens to the leader, then you win.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, it's true. Like, it's like why I like Red Bull's tactics so much at this race, because I think it's not a bad way to think about it. If he just shows up the Tour ready to get second, he could win because.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, I mean, let's. Let's not forget his main goal is the Giro, Spencer. And you know, if he wins the Giro, he will. He will have won all three Grand Tours before.

[Spencer Martin]

There's a super select list on the

[Johan Bernal]

three Grand Tours yet. Right. So that's definitely a goal for Jonas. And then. And he says that usually in the second Grand Tour, he's better than in the first one. I don't know about that because I think. I think that in the Vuelta, I mean, he won the Vuelta, but he was not as strong as in Tour. In the Vuelta.

[Spencer Martin]

No, no. Actually, that Vuelta, looking back, that is super impressive because he was not. Well, probably didn't have great preparation and he just kind of punched out a win. Yeah, that. I think I read that at the time, I was like, ooh, Jonas is fading. These young guys are coming fast. But it's like he just was not at his best. And he still figured out a way to win. He looks incredible. I. I don't know. I would say, who knows? Because he didn't go to altitude after the Tour last year. If he really. If he wins. To say he wins a zero takes his Tour preparation really seriously. I think. Yeah. Maybe show up better.

[Johan Bernal]

So we have to put everything in a context. Right. You look at the competition also. Right. So I mean, if, If Jonas doesn't win this, I mean, he has. He should win this because with all due respect, you know, Donny Martinez and who's. Who's in third now?

[Spencer Martin]

Man, it's somebody. How did I forget this? It's Danny Martinez, Jorg Steinhauser.

[Johan Bernal]

There you go. You know, it's only logical. He wins and he destroys everybody. Right.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, I guess the way he loses is. It's the. Remember, Roglich got.

[Johan Bernal]

Had these, like.

[Spencer Martin]

It was like these bad patches of luck where. Yeah. If you're winning Perry Neeson, it'd crash horribly on the last day. That's the only way that he doesn't.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, but I mean, like, quality wise, he's. He's a level above everybody else.

[Spencer Martin]

Like, maybe more than one level.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah. And if you look at the competition, you know, it's Two levels above Danny Martinez and York Steinhauser. So is it George? George? George?

[Spencer Martin]

I. I don't know. I mean. Okay. I don't think it's Jet. Probably not George. So I agree with you. I think it's today. Jonas Del Toro, top three stage racers right now. But it's probably safe to say Paul Seas pretty good. Gonna be up there. Yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

Never done a ground tour yet, so we'll see.

[Spencer Martin]

Did we?

[Johan Bernal]

I think, by the way, it looks like it's more and more confirmed that he is absolutely doing the Tour de France.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I think he kind of has to.

[Johan Bernal]

They haven't announced it, but you can read in between the lines from interviews from the general manager that he is. He's on for the Tour. So that's going to be interesting.

[Spencer Martin]

And yeah, that is interesting. I. So he's out of contract at the end of 2027. He's not talking contract extensions with Decathlon right now. He said he wants to.

[Johan Bernal]

I think it's only logical, Spencer. I mean, like, I saw his agent there at Tireno. I didn't talk to him about, say, Charles, but if you have a good agent and you have a guy like Paul Seychas, you just sit and wait and let the offers come and then use it. I mean, most likely he's going to stay with Decathlon. I mean, I think he should stay there because that's a French team. They have the, you know, they have the resources. They're going to build everything around. And they are already now a really good team. Like a really good team. That's like a different team from what AG2R was in the past. Right. So I think it's. It's just a way to just increase the price. If he has offers from UAE and ineos and whoever else has big pockets, Red Bull, then he can still stay at Decathlon, but just for much more money.

[Spencer Martin]

Here's the problem, though, and I have a couple questions for you. So I've spent the last few days going through French employment taxes.

[Johan Bernal]

Correct?

[Spencer Martin]

Correct. If, let's say you make a million dollars a year. If let's just say that's what Paul Sechasse makes, he's gonna make more than that. A French company like Decathlon has to pay him 1.5 million, basically because they pay so much in employment taxes. So they have to pay 50, a 50% premium on rival teams to sign their own rider. Is there a chance that they. What's to stop them from going and registering in Switzerland? Do you think they're going to do that.

[Johan Bernal]

The team?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, the team. No, no.

[Johan Bernal]

French company. No. They're never going to go to Switzerland. No. So they just have to increase the budget, Spencer. And let me tell you, let me tell you, decathlon is huge. But the second sponsor, was it called cma?

[Spencer Martin]

It's like a shipping company, right?

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, I checked the numbers. It's five times bigger than decathlon.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting.

[Johan Bernal]

Annual turnover. It's huge. Interesting. So the money's not a problem.

[Spencer Martin]

So speaking of money, what's this guy going to go for? 20, 28? Rolls around. What's his contract? What's it going to take to sign him?

[Johan Bernal]

I mean, it depends what he does, right? I mean, we still need to. Wait.

[Spencer Martin]

Let's say he. Let's say he got signed right now?

[Johan Bernal]

Right now?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

I don't know. I mean, I think right now probably 4 million.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, no, no, it's gotta be more than that.

[Johan Bernal]

No, no, no, I.

[Spencer Martin]

Honestly, Johan, I think if he was on the market right now, I think he would make more money than Tade Pugachar. People cannot control themselves around this guy. People are out of their mind. 4 million euros. That's not even what Remco is making.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, look at Del Palmares. That's not.

[Spencer Martin]

It's not about Palmers. It's about future expected, future return.

[Johan Bernal]

I know, I know, but anyways, maybe I'm out of it, but I would pay him 4 million.

[Spencer Martin]

I think it's going to take an offer of.

[Johan Bernal]

No, it's going to take more.

[Spencer Martin]

It's going to take a hundred million dollar offer. I think like 10 years. 100.

[Johan Bernal]

Are you watching?

[Spencer Martin]

Dude, these, these salaries are spiraling out of control. Like Juana, you so just got a 10 million euro transfer fee.

[Johan Bernal]

Okay, well that's. He doesn't make threat. He doesn't make 10 million. He probably makes 3 million.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, it goes into the same, like just the same package. So Seychas will. Will not, he'll not leave mid contract. So yeah, it's going to take a sock of money to get them away from decathlon, I think. Yeah, I. I mean, I would say conservatively, I think it could be conservatively five years, 50 million euros. So I think so. No, dude, this people can't control themselves around this guy. Okay, well, hey, listen, I've never seen

[Johan Bernal]

good for him, but that makes no sense economically in the, in the business model of cycling. No.

[Spencer Martin]

And well, if he wins the Tour this year, you could be talking 100 mil a year. Sky's the limit.

[Johan Bernal]

So Spencer, he's not Going to win the Tour this year.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, what? Well, okay, well, probably not. But let's say what if Pagachar and Jonas get hurt?

[Johan Bernal]

Okay. Then there's still others he hasn't beaten yet.

[Spencer Martin]

I think you think more highly of the others than I do.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, listen, the guy is obviously super good. My, my question is how much can he still improve? And he's super good, you know, already he's top of the world right now. So even if he doesn't improve, he's fine, you know, he's up there. He will improve because of experience, getting more endurance, you know, knowing his body, knowing the races. But I think the margin of progression is limited. Well, we've said it before, you know, if you, if you compare him with the 19, 20 year old Pogachar, it's a completely different story. And let's not forget Pugach when he was 20, he won the Tour de France unpolished, completely unpolished. And Paul Seychas is super polished.

[Spencer Martin]

The thing though about Sechas and improvement, I have concerns about the improvement as well. But we're watching a guy just dominate Toreno Adriatico and that guy got dropped off Seychelles wheel after Seychelles pulled him around at Strada. He's already. Well, Seychelles pulled Del Toro around. Yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

Did he get dropped or did Del Toro just not dispute the third place, the second place?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Johan Bernal]

I did.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, you know, a lot of ultra competitive people do.

[Johan Bernal]

You know, I rewatched the images, Spencer. I mean, I'm not sure, but maybe Del was completely out of gas. But let me tell he didn't try very hard. And Pogat and Sechelt did not attack. It looked to me like Sechas was surprised that Del Toro wasn't there anymore, which is possible. You know, you can completely be dead and say, okay, you know what?

[Spencer Martin]

But

[Johan Bernal]

yeah, listen, let's, you know, we can debate about this forever. Secha is the real deal. You know, he's 19. He has his future in front of him. But there are other writers who have proven already much more. And Sechas will probably prove the same, but he hasn't yet.

[Spencer Martin]

The problem with proving yourself is then you know, and then you lose the magic. Like Joelameda. We kind of know what he is.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And so we. It's hard for us to imagine something amazing where Paul Seych can be anything you want him to be because he's not raced a Grand Tour yet. So maybe he's better than Pugachar. That's part of the intoxication that's why you should sign big deals when you're a young athlete before people get your money.

[Johan Bernal]

You can probably say that Sechas right now is on a higher level than Bouchar was in his first year. But at the same time, Pugachar won three stages at the Vuelta in his first year and finished third. We'll see. What I mean, you can't compare the Tour de France with the Vuelta.

[Spencer Martin]

People see ample areas better than Pogacha in 2019. But the thing that you're pulling at. That's right. Is, well, Pogacha got a lot better between 2019 and 2020. Can like compulsory Picacher got a lot better between 2025 and 2026. Can say shots keep improving. Yeah, that's the big question. Where is Juana? You. So after this, to me, this is a little. Gotta be deflating for Lidl Trek and him came in with a lot of expectations.

[Johan Bernal]

Bad luck. I mean, you can't. You can't fight against bad luck. I mean, if out you crash out. I mean, we won't know.

[Spencer Martin]

Do we know how long he's out?

[Johan Bernal]

Not very long. He does. He hasn't. He doesn't have any major injuries. He has not. Nothing broken or. I. I expect him to. I don't know if it was on his program, but he could be back for Catalunya now that he missed out on. Is it on his program?

[Spencer Martin]

It's not Bass country is. Oh, boss.

[Johan Bernal]

Pretty.

[Spencer Martin]

He looked pretty hurt. I guess they didn't release anything.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, yeah, I mean, listen, he has no major injuries, apparently. So it could have been, you know, the shock of the moment and feeling really horrible and not being able to ride your bike. It is possible, right? I mean, nobody can feel from a distance what they guys. These guys feel after hitting the ground. And it's a combination of, you know, physical pain and then mentally seeing everything escape. And I think it's reassuring to know that there's no big injuries. Nothing broken, nothing. No, nothing. Thorn and it seemed that everything was going to be okay. I think next week he's back to

[Spencer Martin]

training normally and then it's all for the Tour. Right? That's the big, I guess, the age and then the Tour de France. So someone sent this question in and I think I have an answer in my head, but I want you to answer it. I don't remember saying this. This is from Angel. Angel, however, maybe. Angel.

[Johan Bernal]

Angel. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So I don't remember saying this. He was saying after Pugachar lost, that must have been 20, 23 in the tour, second year in a row. We were saying Jonas is just a better GC rider. It kind of. I guess the proof at the time was that Jonas was better. Pagachar maybe was never going to win the Tour again. And then, of course, Pagachar goes on to completely retool himself as a writer, hit a second apex, is now better than ever. Is it possible for that Jonas is doing this right now? And if not, why not?

[Johan Bernal]

Yes, yes. But he's not going to be all of a sudden better than Togachar. But listen, I mean, I hope he is on a higher level and that we see a great battle. You know, that's what we want. You know, we don't want the Tour to be decided after the first mountain stage and then basically know the result as a spectator. You know, as a team director, I've been in that position quite a few times and I kind of liked it. But as a spectator, I don't like it too much. Let's hope that that's the case, that Jonas has stepped up and it looks amazing. I'm curious to see the analysis of power numbers and times and stuff to see what this really means, because as we said, we need to check who he's racing against.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, I also think people are pretty taxed by the just. It's always hard racing at Pyrenees, you know, with the weather. I don't know if you're getting the

[Johan Bernal]

world's hardest power numbers. It's not a nice race. I never liked parinis. It's not a nice race. It's always miserable. Tomorrow they're talking about alternating or canceling part of the stage because snow is coming in. So we're not probably not going to see a big mountain stage tomorrow.

[Spencer Martin]

Which actually goes to show you why Jonas is so good. You know, like, doesn't leave it the chance. Just like, let me get time when I can, because I don't know what's going to happen later in the race. I would also just a couple facts. Jonas is 29 years old right now. When Pagatra lost the Tour for the second time, he was 24. And we didn't know it at the time, but he also wasn't as professional as he is now. So we changed his program. Andy just physically got older and got closer to his peak. Yeah, I don't think Jonas is a growing boy. I think he's. He's probably at his peak and he is getting to an age when we see people to stop winning. The biggest races. It's hard to win races over 30 in pro cycling. I'm not, not that he's going to be bad. I just, I don't know if he's going to keep. He's not going to make a massive jump, most likely at that age.

[Johan Bernal]

No. I mean he can improve a bit, but not massively. No.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

So I think you also need to know, know Spencer, that, you know, it has not been easy for Jonas in the last two years. You know, he had some issues with crashes and injuries and this year, again right into training. But yeah, I mean, if he can stay healthy and not crash, then he should have, you know, a really good preparation for the Giro, which I expect him to win. And then we'll see how he recovers from the Giro and how he set the Tour de France. It's the same like today, last year, two years ago. Right. When he won the Giro and then the Tour.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. Just. It's simple, just like that. This does actually remind me of 2023. I don't know if you remember this. He wins Ogre and Camino, he loses Pyrenees, actually wins Bass country, wins the Dauphine and wins a Tour. So actually he reminds me of that writer, the 2023 early season, Jonas. Yeah. Well, thank you. Anything else, Johan? Before we take. Oh, also we should say INEOS Grenadiers new co sponsor. New title sponsor.

[Johan Bernal]

Title sponsor. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Company.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Is. Are the figures public? The.

[Johan Bernal]

Well, I mean I've seen somewhere that I read, I read an article that Jim Ratcliffe, the owner of ineos, the company and the owner of the team, is willing to give away the naming rights. He's still gonna finance the team. It's not like INEOS has something to sell to people, to consumers. Right. They don't have a product to sell. So he's going to keep financing the team, but let this new title sponsor in for five years. Reportedly it's a $100 million euro pound deal over five years. So 20 million per year. So this is an extra 20 million to the budget. I don't know if INEOS is going to decrease their financial support to the team, but it's definitely. I mean, I'm surprised, I'm surprised. I mean, I think two years ago or even last year, I think I, I think on a podcast I said I expect INEOS to gradually wind down.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Bernal]

And just let the team go and not the case. So it looks like starting at the Tour de France already, the team is going to be called Netcompany Total Energies. It's going to be difficult to get used to it.

[Spencer Martin]

I just got used to ineos. I'm still stuck on Team Sky. What happened guys? It's actually weird that it's going to take a lot of work to get used to that. It gives them a lot more financial flexibility. A lot more. And financial flexibility for what end? To what end, you may ask? Well, there could be a pretty talented GC rider coming available at the end of 2027.

[Johan Bernal]

There's already a few French riders there. There's. There's Vauquelin, there's Godon, there's Axel Laurence. There's another one, I think so they could go for Paul Seychelles when they

[Spencer Martin]

have two, these two big sponsors, Net company, big Danish company and then Total Energy.

[Johan Bernal]

And then Total Energy is French big after os exas. I do think however that the financial resources of Decathlon and what's it. Was it cma? No. Is it CMA or cgma? Cma.

[Spencer Martin]

I think it's cma.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah, they're up there. They're up there with INEOS if they want cma.

[Spencer Martin]

Cgn.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

See it rolls off the tongue.

[Johan Bernal]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

It's a huge shipping company.

[Johan Bernal]

Everybody said Mekathlon. Nobody, nobody talks about the second sponsor but they're huge and if they have to, they will step up to try to keep those hs. So it's going to be an interesting development. I expect him to stay there in 2028.

[Spencer Martin]

All right, you heard it here first folks. But this also just gives ineos. Instead of asking for Jim Ratcliffe for a bunch of money to fund the team now they're kind of self sufficient. If they need extra money to sign a generational talent, they can. But it, I think it just gets them running on like smooth.

[Johan Bernal]

With your prediction, Spencer, there's not going to be much left of the 20 million. If you think that that Seychelles is going to be paid 10 million per year.

[Spencer Martin]

Did you see what people are losing their minds. What was. Who runs the Groupama team? Mark Madio, Mark Medio. He's. I think he said we've not seen a Frenchman this dominant since he know. Is he forgetting that Frenchman just won double world championships not that long ago?

[Johan Bernal]

Spencer Mario needs to tell his story, you know, so he, he always plays into what people want to hear. So he's, you know, he's a dinosaur.

[Spencer Martin]

I thought that was kind of a little alive. Philippe Erasure, pretty, pretty decent French writer who, I mean he took the tour by storm in 2019. Come on, guys, let's see Paul Seychelles start a tour before we declare him better than Alaphilippe. All right, Johan, anything else before you take off?

[Johan Bernal]

That's it. We'll see each other on Monday, I guess. To recap, Tireno and Parinis.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes, we will be back on Monday to something's going to come up. We think this is straightforward, but something will happen that will have us talking hopefully about something on Monday. But I'll see you then.

[Johan Bernal]

Okay, thanks.

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