Is Van der Poel's Current Level High Enough to Challenge Pogačar This Spring? | THEMOVE+

Summary

THEMOVE+ Podcast Summary

Episode: Is Van der Poel's Current Level High Enough to Challenge Pogačar This Spring?
Date: March 27, 2026
Host: Lance Armstrong (absent for this episode)
Panelists: Spencer Martin & Johan Bruyneel

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Episode Overview

In this installment of THEMOVE+, Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel dive deep into the latest in the pro cycling world, focusing on Mathieu van der Poel's dramatic win at the E3 Saxo Classic and evaluating whether he can realistically threaten Tadej Pogačar in the upcoming Spring Monuments. They dissect key races, tactical dynamics, rider form, and broader trends, offering informed analysis, historical context, and thoughtful predictions for the sport's biggest one-day events and stage races.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recap & Analysis: E3 Saxo Classic (E3 Harelbeke)

Van der Poel's Performance

• Spectacular Solo Win: Mathieu van der Poel attacked from long range ("about 60k to go, 65k to go" - Johan, 03:47), holding off a strong chase and winning despite clear signs of exhaustion.
• The final kilometers saw a suspenseful chase: "He was caught, basically caught inside the last kilometer by a three-rider chase group. They didn’t close the last meter though. And Vanderpoel rode away for the win. Pretty incredible racing." (Spencer, 02:27)

Physical Limits and Recovery

• "I’ve never seen van der Poel so empty and exhausted and having to recover for such a long time after the race. That was everything he had." (Johan, 01:12, 10:04)
• Concern about how deeply van der Poel had to dig and if he can recover in time for upcoming Classics: "Normally, I would say after today’s performance, van der Poel will not be fully recovered on Sunday." (Johan, 02:16, 10:51)

Assessment of Strength

• Discussion spurred by van der Poel’s tenacity yet visible limits: "He’s not strong enough right now, though. That’s the problem. Like the Mathieu van der Poel we saw today is not good enough [to beat Pogačar].” (Spencer, 06:07)
• The physical toll: "That’s the thing also with these guys, you know, they don’t race a lot, but when they race, they empty every single thing they have in their body and they need this time to recover." (Johan, 01:58, 10:51)

Notable Moment in the Finale

• The chase group almost caught van der Poel in the final kilometers but hesitated: "10 meters before they got him, they started to look at each other. Mathieu just went." (Johan, 04:56)
• Tactical mastery: "There was a moment... he looked back and he made it seem like he was going to sit up. And that's the moment when they hesitated, and that’s when he went again." (Johan, 20:25)

Quotes from this Segment

• “If you can win E3 Harelbeke and not be on a great day, that’s pretty good.” (Johan, 14:58)
• “The moment he goes, I think it’s okay to work with Van der Poel. Maybe a little bit less than... I mean, I would say Van der Poel does two thirds of the work and you do one third of the work.” (Johan, 15:46)
• “Any other rider would have been caught, but, you know, this is Mathieu van der Poel. Right.” (Johan, 19:32)

2. Can Van der Poel Challenge Pogačar This Spring?

Comparison & Skepticism

• Pogačar’s dominance is the elephant in the room. Both hosts question if van der Poel's current level is competitive: “He’s not strong enough right now though. That's the problem.” (Spencer, 06:07)
• Powerful historical observation: “We saw him get dumped by Pogačar on a much easier course at Milan-San Remo than they're going to race at Tour of Flanders.” (Spencer, 06:07)
• Bruyneel opines, “Who is strong enough to beat Pogačar right now?” and floats the idea of Pogačar sweeping all five Monuments this year. (Johan, 06:33, 07:03)

Race Dynamics & Tactical Evolution

• “Vanderpool, when Pogačar is there…has to race differently. He cannot go on these big attacks. He needs to try to follow, which sometimes in van der Poel's case is an advantage...” (Johan, 09:08)
• Historic context: While van der Poel can dazzle with solo attacks, against a rider like Pogačar, energy cost and tactical nuance matter more than ever.

3. Other Noteworthy Riders and Teams

Mads Pedersen

• Admiration for his resilience after a collarbone and wrist fracture: “It's impressive. He's there. It’s impressive. He's racing. It’s impressive he did 14th in Milan-San Remo. He's going to be there in the final of Gent-Wevelgem and Flanders and Roubaix, I think.” (Johan, 21:19)
• But uncertainty if it's enough for the win: “I fear that he's gonna hit his ceiling now… usually when [a rider] kinda stagnates.” (Johan, 21:19)

E3 as a Predictor for Flanders?

• Many E3 winners have gone on to win Flanders, but: “What never has been done is somebody winning Flanders who has won Omloop.” (Johan, 23:49)

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4. Volta a Catalunya Analysis

Jonas Vingegaard's Dominance

• Jonas Vingegaard "destroying everyone," especially with his stage 5 win (mountain-top finish atop the 19km-long Coll de Pal).
• Bruyneel: “Today he was impressive. Today he was really in control… there was no competition for Jonas today.” (Johan, 40:33)

Remco Evenepoel's Struggles

• Tactical error: Remco left his team in a crosswind section, attacking solo with Vingegaard on his wheel, which the panelists viewed as a blunder. “You should be looped in on that. He leaves [his team]… How does he not? He should be looped in on that.” (Spencer, 36:37)
• Consequence: Remco crashed, lost time, and his climbing was exposed as no longer elite. “We have enough data to tell us Remco Evenepoel’s no longer an elite climber. Like, what has gone on here.” (Spencer, 41:46)
• Bruyneel: “Right now he’s not in the top three or five best climbers...for the confidence, that’s obviously not great. And it's also not a coincidence anymore. It’s recurring.” (Johan, 42:19)

On How Racing Has Changed

• The physical level in the pro peloton is higher than ever: “A rider’s 20-minute power has gone from 330 watts to 400–70 watts higher in 9 years… now he's at the level of peak Sagan (2016) and almost doesn't win any races. That's how much it has changed." (Johan, 49:27)

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5. Team & Rider Trends

Ineos Grenadiers' Resurgence

• Ineos has 13 wins already: “Best start in a long time for that team.” (Spencer, 59:56)
• Dorian Godon praised as an unsung, highly effective new signing: “One of the best pickups they’ve had in a long time.” (Spencer, 32:03)

Future Grand Tour Talent

• Felix Gall’s consistency is noted: “Quietly doing very well, like below the radar...I’m shocked at how consistent he has become...” (Spencer, 53:55)
• Discussion over whether young French climber Paul Séchan should ride the Tour for experience or skip it for now.

Sprint Teams & Tour De France Invitations

• Heated debate over the exclusion of flashy new team Wanty-Titamä from the Tour de France vs. the perennial French wildcard Kakal Rel: “You cannot have your first Grand Tour as a team be the Tour de France...It's for their benefit not to be.” (Spencer, 58:26)
• Dylan Groenewegen’s resurgence highlighted: “He won his last three sprints, his last three race starts...” (Johan, 57:28)

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6. Memorable Quotes & Tactical Wisdom

• "There was a moment…he made it seem like he was going to sit up. And that's the moment when they hesitated, and that's when he went again.” (Johan Bruyneel on van der Poel’s tactics, 20:25)
• “He’s not the most aero rider to be solo for 40k like that on the flats. It's very hard for him, especially with the chase group that strong, working together that well." (Spencer Martin, 11:17)
• “We have enough data to tell us Remco Evenepoel’s no longer an elite climber…It’s obviously a problem, you know?” (Spencer, 41:46; Johan, 42:19)
• “If you can win E3 Harelbeke and not being on a great day, that’s pretty good.” (Johan, 14:58)
• “If he doesn’t perform the way we expect [in the Tour], everybody—‘oh, you know, he's 19, he needs to learn...’” (Johan, 55:46, on Paul Séchan)

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Important Timestamps

• E3 preview & van der Poel’s attack – 02:27 to 04:56
• Van der Poel’s limits & recovery concern – 10:04, 10:51
• Is Pogačar unbeatable this spring? – 06:07 to 07:17
• Final kilometers: E3 chase group analysis – 17:24 to 20:25
• Pedersen’s comeback & Classics form – 21:19 to 22:42
• Flanders and E3 win crossover – 23:32 to 23:58
• Volta a Catalunya Remco tactical errors – 32:03 to 38:25
• Vingegaard's control on the summit finish – 40:33
• Remco’s mental/tactical questions – 44:59 to 47:58
• Level of modern pro cycling – 49:27 to 50:01
• Ineos resurgence & Dorian Godon – 59:56 to 60:24

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Conclusions & Predictions

• Van der Poel is a generational rider, capable of jaw-dropping feats even on subpar days, but right now, his current level may not be enough to challenge Pogačar at Flanders or Roubaix unless something changes or Pogačar falters.
• Pogačar is clearly the man to beat, with the physical and tactical edge to win any Monument should luck be on his side.
• Remco Evenepoel faces both tactical and physiological challenges—his mentality and his team’s direction are called into question, especially for Grand Tours.
• Ineos is having a resurgence, benefitting from new talent acquisition and a broader approach to winning.
• The physical level of WorldTour racing continues to rise, favoring those who can combine immense power with mental resilience and tactical cunning.

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For listeners craving the inside scoop on Spring Classics, and especially those pondering the tactical chess game between van der Poel and Pogačar, this episode offers rich, sharp, and unfiltered wisdom straight from cycling’s inner sanctum.

Transcript

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[Spencer Martin]

But then Vanderpoel, it was his worst spring ever, I believe. Or like worst spring since he became good. Yeah, I think he was like so drained from that performance.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean then, then another thing also Spencer, after today's, you know, obviously great, great win. Right? Spectacular win. Unbelievable. He, he, he really went to get that. That's that victory with, with everything he had. You know, I've never seen van der Poel so empty and exhausted and having to recover for such a long time after the race. That was everything he had. Now question, how is he going to recover from this Sunday? Is it's on his program. Yeah. He will race in my opinion.

[Spencer Martin]

2050k long. Right? It's.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it's longer. I mean I don't know how long it is, but it's longer than 241.

[Spencer Martin]

That's like monument distance.

[Johan Berniel]

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you know it takes out of you, you know, I mean they, these, that's, that's the thing also with these guys, you know, they don't race a lot but when they race, they empty every single thing they have in their body and they need this time to recover. Normally. I would say after, after today's performance, Van der Poel will not be fully recovered on Sunday. Everybody.

[Spencer Martin]

Welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel. We are breaking down a busy, a busy week, a busy day of racing. Johan, we have stage five of Volta Catalunya happening today. Jonas van der Gard destroying Everyone showing us why he is still the second best stage racer in the sport. And Matthew Vanderpoel winning E3 Harold Becker. Harold Becker, if that's what this race is still called. We're never quite sure what it's. I guess it's technically the E3 saxo classic. It's kind of like a miniature Tour of Flanders. Done on Friday before again Wevelgem nine days before the Tour of Flanders, but won by Matthew Vanderpoel. Not in the fashion we would have thought. It was technically a solo win. But he broke away from a long way out after the time Berg and then was bridging up to groups, was solo from about. What is that? 40k to go. And was caught, basically caught inside the last kilometer by a three rider chase group. They didn't close the last meter though. And Vanderpoel rode away for the win. Pretty incredible racing. Let's just start with E3 because it's fresh. It's fresh in my mind because that's the one that just finished. What were your thoughts from this race, Johan?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean a trailer. A trailer until the very end, as you say. Spencer. Matthew V. Poel left whoever he was with. You know, there was an attack on the Tyenberg from one of the Van Laker brothers, I believe.

[Spencer Martin]

Ten Van Dyke.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. So they bridged up to a group and then. Yeah, I mean surprisingly Vanderpoel left quite early there. I personally think, you know, if he would have kept Van Dyke with him for a while, they probably have been smarter. But anyways, he, I guess his attack was about 60k to go. 65k to go. That's a, that's a long way. And you know, especially in, in Harlebeek, you know, once the hilly zone is finished, it's still quite a while. Yeah, at least 20k I think. So. You know, usually you would say Yavon Pool has this right. But you know, he showed he's human, he still won, which is, which is incredible actually. I, I, I wouldn't have bet a dollar. With 5k to go, I thought that he was done. And then finally, you know, these four guys was it, it was Florian Vermeers, Strand Haageness. Who was the other guy?

[Spencer Martin]

It was Stan De Wolf, who was one other guy.

[Johan Berniel]

Abraham. Yeah, Abrahampton.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep.

[Johan Berniel]

So, you know, I mean really strong guys. Really strong guys. And so yeah, I mean they got him and 10 meters before they got him, they started to look at each other. Mathieu just went and. Yeah, I mean it also takes a really, really strong guy And a class guy to keep going like that physically and mentally especially because you know, everybody would sit up, you know, would say, okay, I'm done. You know, after such a long ride. So this is the third time he wins this race. I think he has never been off the podium. He was third, second and three times first mini Tour of Flanders. It's normally the general repetition for the Tour of Flanders. You know, he looks like he's ready. Right. The consequences of the crash in Milan San Remo seem to be okay. Although he did say in a pre race interview that it was quite painful. It didn't. It was not going to hurt his performance, but it was, it was annoying bothering him. So he's ready. But you know, there's one problem this p. That's the problem for Mat Vanderpoel for the future, for the next races. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And it's not a theoretic. He's won it in the last three years, by the way. Third year running all solo. The, the problem is not theoretical. We saw him get dumped by Pagachar on a much easier course at Milan Sanremo than they're going to race at Tour Flanders. Today was an incredible win. I still can't believe he won that. As you said. I would not have bet any money on that. He's not strong enough right now though. That's the problem. Like the Matthew van der Poel we saw today is not good enough.

[Johan Berniel]

Who is strong enough to beat Bogachar right now? I mean, okay, there was Pitcock who followed him in Milasa Remo. I think without the crash, Bogaccia goes solo on the Tipresa and makes it to the finish without the crash. So, you know, we'll see. I mean usually normally Palacha is going to show up at his next races. I don't know what his next race is. His next race to the flowers.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I was going to talk to you about this. He's only doing monuments. It's like I've never seen.

[Johan Berniel]

Here's a thought, here's a thought. And it's very doable and possible that Pogacha actually wins all five monovates in one season.

[Spencer Martin]

That's what I said in our previous show in December and you said, oh, no way. Impossible.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well it's, you know, the way, of course, you know, like listen, Flanders and Roubaix are in Flanders. I mean the problem with Flanders and Rube is that there are external factors. Yeah. Which are sometimes difficult to avoid. You know, he already won. In my opinion the most difficult One for him to win Milano after a crash. So what can stop him? You know, Flanders normally he'll win again. I think. No, he also has a super strong team. We saw today, for example, Florian Vermeers was unbelievable. That, I mean, that performance was incredible, Spencer, because when they started the broadcast, Florian Vermeers was in the back after mechanical way way out of race, off the race day actually, and comes back and then finally is still on the podium. So, you know, we know that they have a strong team. So yeah, I think Flanders normally, you know, okay, you can also say last year. If you look at Flanders, last year did drop Vanderpool, but Vanderpool also crashed into a Flanders last year and apparently he was. He was bothered by that, hurt by that. So we'll see. You know, I think we have to. I think we. I'm trying to talk in that. In that way to keep the hopes up a little bit. Right. Because otherwise it's just going to be the whole year we just saw. But you know, I, Yeah, I, I don't mind.

[Spencer Martin]

I would like forgot you to win every race. That might not be everyone's opinion, but we just saw a guy win E3 in a 40, 42k solo breakaway and we're talking about how he doesn't stand a chance in a monument. It's kind of. It's a little ridiculous. I, I think when I said Pagacho is going to win all five, you said, well, the big problem is San Ramos, so that's out of the way. I do think Roubai is a big problem, is a tough nut to crack. It's not a. That's not a guaranteed win.

[Johan Berniel]

And then the change also is Spencer, you know, Vanderpool, when Pogacha is there. Vanderpool will and has to race differently. He cannot go on these big attacks. He needs to try to follow, which sometimes in van der Poel's case is an advantage because we have seen sometimes van der Poel do this incredible show, you know, like go away and then finally sometimes not make it or fade away or almost, almost not make it. You know, I remember there was 1 stage 1 cento Adriatico also that where he did that well, he almost got

[Spencer Martin]

caught by Pagachar and Pugachar sat up

[Johan Berniel]

and gave him the stage.

[Spencer Martin]

But then Vanderpoel, it was his worst spring ever, I believe. Or like worst spring since he became good. Yeah, I think he was like so drained from that performance.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, then another thing also, Spencer, after today's, you know, obviously great, great Win, Right. Spectacular win. Unbelievable. He, He. He really went to get that. That's that victory with, with everything he had. You know, I've never seen van der Poel so empty and exhausted and having to recover for such a long time after the race. That was everything he had. Now question how is he going to recover from this Sunday? Is. Can we. It's on his program. Yeah, he will race. Can be for him, in my opinion.

[Spencer Martin]

50k long, right? It's.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it's longer. I mean, it's. I don't know how long it is,

[Spencer Martin]

but it's longer than 241. That's like monument distance.

[Johan Berniel]

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you know, it takes out of you. You know, I mean, they, that's. That's the thing also with these guys, you know, they don't race a lot, but when they race, they empty every single thing they have in their body and they need this time to recover. Normally, I would say after. After today's performance, V. Poel will not be fully recovered on Sunday.

[Spencer Martin]

No, I would say not. And we, I think we were talking about this off mic recently is he's not the most arrow rider to be solo for 40k like that on the flats. It. It's very hard for him, especially with the chase group that strong, working together that well. And yeah, maybe that does give an advantage when Pagadra is around because then he's not solo by himself. Presumably we should say I'm old enough to remember when W. V. Matthew Vanderpoel and Tad epicar were the three, like lead group at this race in 2023. It seems like. And I grew up, this was a big race when I grew up, like the big set piece before Flanders. It seems like it's getting less popular maybe because of what we just said, you know, no Pagacha. No, no van Art today. Because I'd assume they don't want the fatigue. They want, like, what are they doing that's not this race? Like, what's the thinking here?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean, also, I mean, avoiding risk. I think, you know, these, all these races, they involve a decent amount of risk for crashes. I don't know, actually. I mean, listen, I mean, Pagachar I can understand because he has so many different goals throughout the season where every time he shows up, he needs to be 100. I. I don't really understand why Walt Van Aert was not at the start today. But then again, you know, I mean, it's the combination of Harlebeke and, and. And gentle game Is not an easy one, you know, and then especially because the week after it's Flanders and the week after it's baritube.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. I'm wondering if they're modern, like if modern science is telling them maybe it's not a good idea to do two classics in three days.

[Johan Berniel]

Potentially. I think, I think before, if. I think before Harle Baker was. I. I don't know if it was. I think it was on a weekend. I mean, they shifted the calendar there because normally. Normally again, Wilhelm was in between. In between Flanders and Paris. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But yeah, it was the Wednesday in between.

[Johan Berniel]

Midweek. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

So once they changed that, you know, they kind of played around with some dates for the. For the races. But. But yeah, the combination Friday, Sunday, Harlebe Harlebeek is a hard race, man. It's a very hard race.

[Spencer Martin]

It's basically the Flanders course just like slightly inverted.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it's a flounders course. And then, you know, it's nervous, it's windy, it's 206k. Yeah. It's not easy especially.

[Spencer Martin]

But anyways, by yourself.

[Johan Berniel]

Great, great win by. By Vanderpool. You know, I have to say though, you know, I don't know what you were thinking, Spencer. I kind of had a little bit of doubts that he was not on a great day when he went solo. It took him forever to close those 40 seconds with those six guys in the breakaway. And you know, there were strong guys there, but, you know, it took a very long time. It took a lot out of him. Um, normally I would. I would have thought, you know, he's gonna just close this in a heartbeat. And it took him, I would say probably like 20k to. To close that gap.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Cause he dumps the chase group, he jump dumps D G2 at 64k to go. Catches the breakaway at 42k to go. Yeah. Or 45 rides away with 42. Took him a long time. Another thing I was. It's funny you mentioned this. I have this in my notes on the Tyenberg. He's not the one attacking. It's Tim van Dyke. So right there. That's a little odd, isn't it? Like when have you seen Vanderbilt? And he sits in the wheel for a long time, like 3 or 4k. It was. I was shocked at how patient he was being. But maybe it wasn't patience. Maybe it was.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, listen, Spencer, you know, if you can win E3 Harlebeke and not being on a great day, that's pretty good

[Spencer Martin]

solo for 42k here's a question for you. Let's say you're in a group with Vanderpoel.

[Johan Berniel]

A.

[Spencer Martin]

You want to be in front. You want to be stand a wolf. That guy's in the early breakaway. He's getting, what, fourth on the day? Like, that's impressive. That's where you want to be. You want to be ahead of Vanderpoel. Let's say you're Tim van Djka in that group. Should you be attacking? I understand attacking. You get up and over the climb. Should you be pushing with Vanderpoel on your wheel? Why would someone do that?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I mean, I was surprised to see him dropped straight away. You know, that was a surprise because if Van Dyke has already had some good results, you know, he was second in at News Blood.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Behind Vanderpool. He was. He was stopped in, I think, K or another. He was up there in all those races. So I was surprised to see him. Yeah. Dropped straight away. I mean, the moment he goes, I think it's okay to. To work with Vanderpool. Maybe a little bit less than. I mean, I would say Van der Poel does two thirds of the work and you do one third of the work. That would be. But he looked really strong. I mean, that. That attack on the tie in man was quite impressive from Mandejke. So I think he may have thought, you know, I'm on a great day, I'm just gonna go for it.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, I was surprised when I thought there was something wrong with my feet because Vanderpoel, I was like, why are they not showing the riders behind him? But he just ridden off the group. And then Tim Van Dyke, who I agree looked stronger with 70k to go, was dropped by 64k to go. It's like, whoa. Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe he did think that was his day and he was the stronger writer. Very good writer, though, we should say, super impressive. Other impressive writers. Mads Pedersen kind of starts mixing it up after the queremont with like 60, 35k to go. Mrs. Them. He's stirring the pot. But then he misses the. The counter move. We have Per Straw, Per Strand Hogness from Visma, Norwegian Jonas Abrahamsum from unox, another Norwegian. These Norwegians are taking over all of sports, by the way. Like, we have to do something about this. Florian Vermeesh. And then they catch Dan De Wolf. But that. That group was so strong. That was super impressive. I know they biffed the win, but super impressive chase from those guys.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah. And that's also, I mean, that's also the reason why it was so difficult for van der Poel to stay away. You know, those were four. I mean, the Wolf did a turn now and then. I mean, logically, he's been out there the whole, the whole race. But those other three guys are big, big, big engines. So, yeah, it's still. I still can't believe he won, man. The way it looked at 1k to go, that was just crazy.

[Spencer Martin]

They were. He looked like they're going to swarm him. Let's say you're a director. We saw your friend Christoph Rudof. He was. He was yelling instructions at Vanderpoel. I don't know what he was saying. Probably, go, go faster. Go as fast as you can. But that group gets right to the back wheel of Vanderpoel. What would you have done in that group? Because I was thinking, I don't quite know what I would do here.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, that's the problem. That's the problem. Why they were hesitating because once you catch him, it was still a kilometer. So then what? Right. So who. Somebody's gonna attack? I mean, normally I would say, I would expect Abrahams to attack. So they were waiting for that. Then on the other hand, Vermeers knew that. That Haagenussen is faster than him and the Wolf was tired. So, you know, I could. I can understand that there's this moment of hesitation, you know, when. When I don't know who would have won. Probably. Probably the. The Visma guy, right? Haageness would have won because Abraham. I mean, it's also. After such a long chase, you know, these guys don't have much left to. To attack. Right. It's basically whatever you have, you just sprint to the line and, you know, so I think, I think there was one clear favorite in those four, which was Haage. And then that's probably also the reason why nobody wanted to collaborate with him. When the moment was there to catch

[Spencer Martin]

Voel and Verme is on the front, he does not close the gap all the way because A, he's probably concerned about what you're saying. Hogness was on his wheel. He's going to outsprint him. And then he's thinking, as soon as I close this gap, Jonas Abrahamson's attacking. Right?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Like, we all know what would have happened then. So it's not quite as easy as it looks. Watching it, I was saying, what are these guys doing?

[Johan Berniel]

But. Well, yeah, I mean, I've seen a lot of critics, criticism on social media, people who are, I mean, really like, respectless criticism. Like, really? I mean, yeah. I mean, a lot of people have never ridden the bike and, and don't know what it is to be in the final of a bike race. I agree. It was, it was, you know, within reach, very within reach. But, you know, these things happen. And especially if you have a guy like van der Poel. I mean, any, any other rider would have been caught, but, you know, this is Monty van der Poel. Right.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, then he. Because he's like, just a second, maybe a second, two seconds off the front, and it flips so fast from, oh, you're about to be caught to like, whoa. Let's reframe the conversation. You were off the front.

[Johan Berniel]

Like, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Matthew Vanderpoel, a foot off the front. That guy's gone. You know, like, he didn't thought like, oh, I have a gap. I just have to accelerate.

[Johan Berniel]

There was a moment, Spencer. I mean, maybe it was the way it looked on tv, but I was you. It was a moment like he looked back and he, he, he made it seem like he was going to. He was sitting up.

[Spencer Martin]

I know. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

And that's the moment when they hesitated, and that's when he went again.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, we'll talk about it later in the show, but same thing with Jonas Vaard. These guys who win, you know this. I don't know if anyone's an artist. The same few riders win every race in pro cycling. They're very strong, but they're also operating, like, at a different level on the tactic side. Like, these guys are the composure and the ability, like, to read the race and think, oh, I'm gonna, like, look like I'm gonna sit up, and then they're gonna sit up and then I'm gonna ride away. Like, that's not normal. That's pretty impressive to do that on the fly.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, for sure.

[Spencer Martin]

Anything else about. What do you think of Mads Pedersen? He missed the move. He was chasing a lot.

[Johan Berniel]

He's. Listen, he's, he's, he's up there. You know, he's. I personally think it's cool. Probably going to be, you know, he's, he's catching up. He's. He's in time trial mode to get really to back to 100%. That doesn't some. Most, most, most likely. It tends not to work because you, you, you, you progress really, really fast. They say, oh, wow, I'm amazing. And then you kind of stagnate. He comes from, you know, this collarbone fracture with surgery, wrist fracture with surgery. I mean, we've We've all seen the images. Him on the rollers, having to rest both of his arms. You know, it's impressive. He's there. It's impressive. He's racing. It's impressive. He did 14 Milan San Remo. He's going to be there in the final of again Wavelengam and Flanders and Rube, I think. But will it be enough to be at his best? I mean, I hope it for him, you know, I, you know, he's a very likable guy. Really great, great bike rider. But I fear that he's gonna hit his ceiling now. And when he thinks he's gonna keep improving, then it's usually when he kind of stagnates. So I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Listen, it's, it's incredible where he is right now. So anybody with, you know, six weeks ago he was on the floor in, on the ground in Welter Valencia with broken bones. So you know, these guys are not normal, you know. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And he has a bad race and finishes ninth at E3. So pretty good, pretty good little comeback here. I, I, I am shocked at how strong he looks like that. That was pretty impressive today. We'll see what he, I don't think he's gonna, he had like remember that 50k solo breakaway at Get Mobile Gum last year? I don't think that's gonna happen again. But no, I, I'm curious to see also Get Webblegum is no longer called Get Mobilgum. What is it in Flander?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it's called in Flanders Fields or something. In Flanders Fields.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And then the, it continues but I can't like even get it to expand.

[Johan Berniel]

Well, listen, Spencer, it's had wavelength.

[Spencer Martin]

It's got like the Dauphine is the Dauphine.

[Johan Berniel]

It's like the Dauphine is going to be the Dauphine. You know, it's, you know, the same thing like Grand Prix E3 Harle Baker is going to be Grand Prix E3 Harle Baker, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

So what's the historic crossover between. Because I always say about Amloop, it feels big in the moment and then you've almost forgotten it by Flanders. What's the historical crossover between E3 winners and Flanders winners? Is that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Many, many. Now what never has been done is somebody winning Flanders who has won umlop.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Isn't that weird?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. So yeah, you know, Thunderpool can, I mean it's going to be hard to beat but hey, there's circumstances, you know, that you never, you never Know, in. Especially in Flanders and Roub, there's a lot of things that can happen outside of being the strongest on the bike.

[Spencer Martin]

I still can't believe Fogach is doing s. His. His schedule is Sremo Flanders Rube. That's like. I don't think I've ever seen that.

[Johan Berniel]

And then Amstel and Liege.

[Spencer Martin]

No, I don't think he's doing Amstel. He's not crazy.

[Johan Berniel]

He's not doing Amstel.

[Spencer Martin]

Okay, that's. That's a fool, Aaron.

[Johan Berniel]

That makes more sense.

[Spencer Martin]

Has he ever won Amstel? No. Right?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

What year would he have won it?

[Johan Berniel]

Two years ago?

[Spencer Martin]

He didn't race it. He did. Strada Sanremo Catalunya, Liege.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, well, three years he won. He. I'm sure he won. I'm still 100. Sure.

[Spencer Martin]

Okay. 20, 23. He won Amstel.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

Because he did Flanders. He didn't do Roubaix. That was the difference. Yep. Yeah. So he never needs to go back to Amstel gold again. Yeah, that's done. But this is crazy. It's Flanders, Roubaix, Liege, Romandy, Swiss Tour de France. Wow. Yeah. Wow. That is a serious. That's a not messing schedule in green.

[Johan Berniel]

I guess there's. There's altitude.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep. Going altitude after Liege, it's altitude till.

[Johan Berniel]

Till Romandy. And then between Ramandy and Dauphine, between Romandy and Tour Swiss.

[Spencer Martin]

Altitude, I guess probably more altitude.

[Johan Berniel]

I.

[Spencer Martin]

They did seem. I. They did seem a little down on altitude. They said they're going to try to do less altitude in 2026 than 2025. They weren't totally sold on it. I. I would actually be really interested to know what his exact protocol is. How much he's sleeping on altitude, 10 at home, and how much, you know,

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, you can do altitude at home also, right?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. So I think that's. That's, like the new trend.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Anything else on E3 before we go to Catalonia?

[Johan Berniel]

Oh, that's it.

[Spencer Martin]

All right, let's take a quick ad break, and we'll be back to talk about Catalonia.

[Johan Berniel]

Everybody.

[Spencer Martin]

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Clinically proven to reduce wrinkles, fluoride firm skin and improve elasticity. Lightweight, absorbs fast and delivers visible results. And the third step, the easiest one, the one I like the most, the moisturizer, the hydro layer. I just put it on, I just showered. It's lightweight, non greasy, locks in moisture all day. Gives a healthier, more energized look. I love the steps. That's why I use Caldera Lab and I feel. I just feel better after a shower. I feel ready to podcast and this is a small habit with big Results. Go to calderalab.com themove and use code the move for 20% off your first order. That's calderolab.com themove and use Code the move for 20% off your 1st order. Okay Johan, we're back. We've traveled from the rainy the rainy fields of Flanders over the Pyrenees Volta Catalunya. Been a weird race so far because it's been cagey and we've had not cancellations but shortening of stages. So stage one was like, like this classic uphill KG sprint won by Dory Dorian Godin. Very good sprinter for INEOS this year. Stage 2, another uphill sprint won by Magnus Court. Really impressive. Stage three won by Dorian Godin from Ineos. Stage four, another sprint. Ethan Vernon because the summit finish was called off because of gusty winds at high. I. I've been in gusty winds myself at high altitude and I totally get why they did that. And then, and then today stage five, stage three by the way, was the stage that rim Cobina Pole decided I'm just gonna ride up the front of the peloton with Jonas Finnegaard in my wheel and I'm gonna pull him around and then I'm gonna crash in the final roundabout, thus negating any work. I just did. Stage 5, really tough. Some finish like 19k long. Cold, cold. DePaul. Is that what this is, Johan? It's like 19k. 7% average. I had a feeling that it was going to be just like a show for Jonas and it was. He attacked. Felix Gall is launching the attacks earlier. Jonas Finegaard goes and he doesn't, you know, he's not like a Pagacha, where you're like, oh, my God. He's. He's launching, but he just kind of grinds you down. And by the Finish, he finished 51 seconds in front of golf, 101 in front of Lenny Martinez, who finished with Florian Lipowitz, who is now the GC leader on Red Bull because his teammate rem Klevnopol finished 138 back. The GC is now Jonas Van Der Gard first, Felix Goll second, Lenny Martinez third, Florian Lipowitz. Valentin Perry, Pancha Remco Evanopole. And Jonas Vinegard has almost a minute lead on second place, Felix Gall. What were your takeaways from this race?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well, for starters, Spencer. So we. We went through the. The winners of those sprints, you know, I think logical. You know, Godo was super strong. He already showed this in. In Paris, you know, Great, great addition for Ineos, man.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, this guy, huge pickup. Like one of the best pickups they've had in a long time.

[Johan Berniel]

Wins races, Wins races, you know, Wins races. Magnus Court, that was, you know, it's been a while since we've seen Manus Court win a sprint, and that was. And then go down again. So the first three races were won by the mustaches of the peloton, right? Yeah, yeah. Above stage three, Spencer. I have, you know, this, this. This attack of Remco going away on the flat and then Jonas following him. I. I didn't like that, man. I think it was clear that Red Bull had a plan. They all knew there was going to be crosswinds in the final. They were super organized. You know, they were all in the front. They broke the peloton, if I'm not mistaken. Almeida was in the back.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't know if there was anybody else caught, but Almeida was definitely in the back. So, you know, at that point. And also, and also Visma was there with three or four guys. Ineos was there with four guys also, I think. So, you know, at that point, you say you have to. You have to make the assessment what's the situation. We got rid of one rival, but, you know, we are not the super favorite here unless you think you are the super favorite. But, you know, you cannot not say that if Fiona Finger Guard is in the. In the race. So, you know, when that happens, you need to keep relying on your team, you know, and keep the team together and try to take as much possible time, first of all. And then also when you stay with your team in crosswinds, you stay out of trouble because a lot of things can happen in crosswinds. You can off the road, you know, like, so that was kind of undoing everything the team had done before. And. And, you know, they. Yeah, they may have. They might have made it to the finish without that crash and it could have been a stage win. But, you know, is that really worth the effort? Because they went. How long was it? Was it 20k, 25, 28k?

[Spencer Martin]

Man? Yeah, it's a long time.

[Johan Berniel]

You know, that kind of effort when you're there to try to be up there in GC and. And, you know, especially with the three. I mean, ultimately it's going to be only two mountain stages, but initially three mountain stages. That's not. I didn't like to see that, you know, so you can say, well, Remco is impulsive. You know, he feels great. Okay. You can say, okay, yeah, in the moment of. In the heat of the moment, you do that. But I don't understand why from the car there has not been a callback. Say, remco, okay, you're ahead, but your big rival is with you. You know, if we think this is going to go the way we think it's going, it's going to normally, because I think Remco, usually when he gets into a stage race, especially coming off one month of altitude, he's normally always super good. So that was in their mind, right? Remco's good. He's going to be first or second in Catalonia if. Then if you're away with your big rival and you see that the big rival doesn't work or works a little bit, you just don't push it. You go back to your team. Go back where it's safe. It's safe there with you.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, your big rival is not working as hard as you because they're in your wheel.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, but I don't understand. I mean, I don't understand why from the car there was no instruction to say, remco, back off. You know, this is not going anywhere. We're not here to win a stage we're here to try to win the Catalunya, right? Because at this point in his career, what difference does it make if Remco wins a stage in Catalonia? No, nothing. No difference. It's either he wins the GC or he doesn't. That's the only thing that counts. So I blame the direction from the car to. To. To not have said or ordered or maybe whatever has been said, maybe Remco doesn't listen. I don't know. You know, I'm not there. But. But I feel like there's not been a clear instruction from the car to. To assess the situation and call him back once he. Once they saw that Jonas was there. But he shouldn't have gone, for starters. He shouldn't have gone by himself. You know, if you have a plan to split the peloton with the crosswinds, you stay with your team, man. That's the way you're gonna make the most difference.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes, I agree. I agree. He shouldn't have gone. He shouldn't have gone. He shouldn't have gone. With Jonas's wheel. Let's even think about this. This is what really starts to worry me. So his team has a plan. They execute the plan perfectly. Has he not been listening? Does he not know, like, what's going on here? How does he not. He should be looped in on that. He leaves them. Let's say he rides away solo. Let's just.

[Johan Berniel]

Wow.

[Spencer Martin]

Works out perfectly. Remco, you're so strong. You're unbelievable. Also, Jonas, man, Jonas is operating. That guy knows what he's doing, right? He's on his wheel. He's. Remco's yelling at him. He's working a little bit, but he's working enough to keep Remco working. So, like, Yonis is like Kaiser Sosa in this situation. Like, he's putting Remco where he wants him. But let's say Remco rides away. Just play this out. Okay? Well, all Jonas is there with his big, strong team. That's not a problem. And you know what? They just have to wait for UAE who's chasing behind, because now Red Bull's not going to push the pace. And what would Remco gain? 2 seconds plus.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, because also Spencer with the attack of Remco, right? What he accomplished, actually, is that the UAE guys who were dropped came back,

[Spencer Martin]

came back and pulled.

[Johan Berniel]

There were more people, you know, in the peloton to. To work. So that was not a move I liked. Agreed. You know, listen, we would probably have been saying Differently. If they make it to the finish and Remco beats Jonas in the sprint, we would have said, oh, you know, amazing. But still, in the long run and the big picture of the GC of Catalunya, it's not a smart move.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, and you open yourself up to events like the event that happened when he crashed because you're on the limit, man. You're not thinking right. You've been pushing 550 watts for the last 20 minutes and you make a mistake in the final roundabout and then you.

[Johan Berniel]

I still don't understand why. I mean, we, we, you know, it's, it's very unusual, you know, to. It's. It's bad luck, obviously. You know, he said he was on the hoods and then he, at the moment he went to the drops, he must have hit a hole or something.

[Spencer Martin]

A journalist went to look at that stretch of road. No hole. I saw that.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, it was not a big hole. There was, there was a, there was a, there was a tiny little crack. But listen, it can happen, you know, I think it was actually also a tiny bit of a speed bump just before the roundabout or something. It can happen. Right. Listen, if they make it both to the finish, even, even when Remco would have been pulling all the time, I still think he would have won the

[Spencer Martin]

sprint because you don't think they would have gotten caught. Those guys were closing in fast, man.

[Johan Berniel]

No, no, no, they wouldn't have gotten caught.

[Spencer Martin]

What, what do you think the final gap is? 1 second, 2 seconds to go down?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Insignificant. It's a chore. Plus, you know, bonuses. But you know, the bonuses, you need to take the bonuses on your big rival, you know, and you know that.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, it's not a 10 second bonus, it's a, it's a four.

[Johan Berniel]

Anyways, it's, it's easy for us to say this now, this criticism about stage three, knowing what happened in stage five. Right.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, well, that's my question. It's this. Did he know this was coming and he was looking for a stage one?

[Johan Berniel]

I don't think so, man. I think, I think Remco was, went in with confidence. I mean the proof today, they were taking the initiative of the race. Red Bull, they, they drove it on, they, they drove it on the, on the second last climb. They went fast in the downhill. There was crashes in that down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so I think, I think personally that, that Remco was. And the team had confidence. I mean, you know, and until you're not there, until you I mean, they probably also saw parinis where Jonas won, but was not super impressive. You know, we talked about that, right, that he was able to drop.

[Spencer Martin]

They listened to the podcast. They shouldn't have.

[Johan Berniel]

But today he was. Today he was impressive. Today he was really in control. Yeah. Knew perfectly what he was, what he was doing. And, yeah, there was no competition for you and us today.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, also too, I mean, weird race because stage four rolls around, you have Tom Pickock up there picking up time bonuses, and it kind of reminded me of like in war generals, but like, hold tight and for. It makes the enemy nervous and the enemy starts to make mistakes when they don't need to. All of this is just unnecessary. We have a massive stage fin summit finish on stage five. Forget about the time bonuses, forget about attacking. Stay fresh for that. And Jonas is just watching these guys burn matches. Like, you look at Pitcock yesterday, he's frying valuable matches for little tiny time bonuses. And usually I'm a time bonus guy. In this case, maybe. Maybe hold back because there's a big challenge coming. We have a problem, though. At this point, we have enough data to tell us Remco Evanopolis, no longer an elite climber. Like, what has gone on here. This is what, like the seventh consecutive stage race that this has happened in.

[Johan Berniel]

It's obviously a problem, you know, I mean, this, this, this season, it's the second time he gets a big blow, Right? So for the confidence, that's obviously not great. And it's also not a coincidence anymore. It's recurring. Right. So, yeah, as I said, you know, I expected Remco to be at the level of Jonas for Catalonia because, you know, history has shown that when he gets back from altitude training camps, he's always at his best, you know?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

I mean, the way this sport is evolving, man, right now he's not in the top three or five best climbers. You know, you can see that the guy, I mean, he can climb, but he needs to ride his own tempo. Right? And that's obviously not possible with. Especially with Jonas and with today, you know, so. So, yeah, I mean, he wasn't able to follow Felix Gal or Lipowitz or Lenny Martinez or, you know, so, yeah, it's. Yeah, I'd be worried. I'd be worried.

[Spencer Martin]

What's the plan inside of Red Bull?

[Safeway/Albertsons Advertiser]

What?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think, you know, the. The worst they can do now is panic, right? And say, oh, you know, let's just. I would, you know, lower the Expectations take the pressure off and you know, he's a great rider. You know, he can generate a lot of power, he's going to bounce back at some point. But if that's enough to be a candidate for the podium in a Grand Tour, that's different. Although Grand Tours are different than one week stage races. But as we said already, Spencer, you know, it's also not a coincidence that Remco, with this huge potential, you know, huge talent, has never won one of those seven one week races and he's again not gonna win it. Right. So yeah, it's, they need to get back to the, to the drawing table and, but you know, calmly, you know, no panic and just, you know, I would not obsess. I'm not obsessed about, about the Tour at all. I mean there's, they can't obsess about it because right now there's not enough data to be focusing on him going full gas for the Tour de France as the only GC rider of Red Bull. But maybe slowing down a bit and lowering the expectations could be a good thing. And then sometimes all of a sudden when nobody expects it, you're there. He is very strong mentally. We know that. He writes with a lot of temper. You know, that's also not great to be a stage racer. We could see it again, right? You know, like this, this getting wound up and you know, yelling at Jonas and you know, that's not great. You know, I mean, it takes, and I mean his, his character and his temperament, which is great and people like to see it, but takes energy.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, it does. I mean, I was just gonna ask you, like, you know better than anyone, stage racing is a mindset. It's, it's, you know, like a goalkeeper in hockey or soccer. They're weird. They're just like, it's, they're weird people. It's a, it's not normal. It's kind of like stage racers. Stage three showed me though. It's like I just don't know if this guy, setting aside the climbing, the physical, the physical whatever's going on there, I just don't know if he mentally understands the, like the assignment on stage racing. Like he's out there yelling at Jonas, riding away like that's not really how you want to stage race. And it kind of shows you why he's never won a big seven one week race.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, listen, let's not forget he won the Vuelta and he was third of the Tour. We said we have to say he, he can, he, he can do stage Races, you know, I mean, what's weird

[Spencer Martin]

is though, he won that Volta. How, how can he have won a Grand Tour and never one of these one, these one week races are far better for him. That's what I don't understand.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, in theory those one week stage races should suit him perfectly. You know, I also think still that, you know, because you tend to see more and more in modern cycling that even those one week stage races, that they kind of see them as five or six, six one day races after each other.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

I still think that you need to race differently. You know, you can't on stage 3, you can't go out with 30k to go and just go full gas. And then if you, if you know that there's three big mountain stages, that's just not the way to do it. Unless these guys are super human and they just recover and the day after it's like they didn't race before. But you know that that's not, that's not true.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, yeah, we saw proof that that's not true. I mean he didn't lose that much time. He loses 1:30.

[Johan Berniel]

Oh, you know, you know, listen, the, the, the, the, the guy who, who, who breaks all those rules for example, is today Pogachar. I mean we've, how many times have we said, you know, why does he do this crazy shit in, in, in, in the Tour? And now he goes, when, when he doesn't, you know, but yet he's so strong and recovers so well that it doesn't really matter. But you know, well, he goes, but

[Spencer Martin]

he makes sure he's away. Right. Like Pagacha would never just pull with a rival tucked into his wheel pocket. Yeah, like that, that, that starts like. Are you paying attention? Is the question I would have if I was working on that team. Like what, what are we doing here, man?

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, no, I, listen, I, I, I don't think we should blame Remco too much. You know, I blame the team direction to not have taken the decision. You know, Remco, what the hell are you doing? And get back with your team. Those are, that's the two sentences that they should have said. You know, what are you doing? That's stupid. And go back with your team.

[Spencer Martin]

You know, I think it's a writer, a writer led peloton currently. I don't know if probably. Yeah, but that shows you, I mean there are teams where people talk like that to writers and they tend to do pretty well. Like the team we saw today win E3. Question about the VTA 2022. That's a long time ago now, almost five years ago, he wins the VTA. Is he a worse climber than then or is the climbing level higher than then? Because he was a pretty good climber when he won that vta.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I think it, the head level has gone up. I'm pretty sure his numbers are the same or better than then.

[Spencer Martin]

I, I would agree. Same thing. Like, you know, I have, I have.

[Johan Berniel]

Let me tell you a little story. You know, I don't know if I can say then I'm not going to say the name because anyway it's not, it's not a huge rider, but it's a pretty good writer. You know, one won already quite a lot of races. So I got this information. This guy turned professional 9 or 10 years ago and when he turned pro, I mean he's a tiny guy. Small guy doesn't weigh a lot. So his 20 minute power was 330 watts when he turned pro. He's won races through those nine or ten years quite a lot. And now nine years later, his 20 minute power is 400 watts for 20 minutes.

[Spencer Martin]

Wow.

[Johan Berniel]

70 watts more.

[Spencer Martin]

Whoa.

[Johan Berniel]

Now they did some research and he's, he's now at the level of peak. Peter Sagan in 2016 and almost doesn't win any races. That's how much it has changed.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, let's just take this, this person who is small. So let's just say they're 58 kilos, 330 watts when he turned pro, that's like 5.7 watts per kilo for 20 minutes. That's really good. Back in the day, people don't remember, but that was good. Now it's close to seven.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Isn't that wild? Yeah, but like someone did an overlay of like Derek g. Racing the 2015 Tour de France is like riding away from everybody at his current power numbers. If you just dropped him in there. But yeah, the level has gone. I think you're right. I think Remco is probably a faster climber than he was in 2022. It's just the level is, is higher now. Why he's not. There's probably many a million reasons why. He's just. Maybe his body's different than other people. But it is kind of funny. You're like, you can time trial so well. Just pretend the climb is a time trial and ride up. Let's see what happens.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well, yeah, it's still, I don't know. I don't know if there's also A mental aspect to it, you know, the moment, the moment he, he's kind of. I don't know. I mean, listen, I don't know Remco personally at all, so I, I can't say. But you know, what I would do is, you know, I would. Obviously we. There's no doubt that he's an amazing athlete. Right. His palmares speaks for itself. You know, like so many times world champion, double Olympic champion, you know, won all those races. Something needs to change. I would go back to a little bit more relaxed, more feeling wise, you know, not super, super obsessed with the numbers and just, you know, back off a little bit and see how it goes. And especially I would say put less stress on yourself, you know, put less pressure on yourself because I think that's. Remco is so ambitious that he is probably the one who puts the most pressure on himself. And you know, it's. That tends to be the case with champions. Right. So it's easier said than done. Of course you can't change the way somebody is and thinks. Right.

[Spencer Martin]

But

[Johan Berniel]

yeah, they need to, they need to change strategy with Remco. I would more from a human and mental point of view. I think they need to change.

[Spencer Martin]

Well after this, it's a bunch of one days. Amstel, Flash, Liege. He's going to be great at those, right? He's a great one day racer. I would say better, a far better one day racer now than a stage racer. And then you have the doan. The doan is the one. Like that's his big test. Like he could, he could turn this all around if he wins the doan.

[Johan Berniel]

But yeah, why not? Listen, I mean a champion, you can never write off a champion. You know, he's done it in the past, he's still relatively young. The thing is, you know, they need to find something for him to get out of this circle. Now it's. He's in this, you know.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Blow after blow. When it really, when he expects, first of all, and everybody expects him to be up there with the best and right away from the best, something needs to be done. I don't know what that is, but I would start with taking things a little bit more relaxed and doing it more like the natural or feeling way, you know, not so much. Okay, I do this and I do this and you know, everything's so regulated that at the end, you know, and I understand certain things need to be done, but you need to find the balance. And so, you know, you can have all the best scientists and experts and Aerodynamic specialists and engineers and nutritionists and around you. But at some point it comes. It. It gets too noisy. It gets too noisy. There's so much going on that, you know, these guys are still human beings, you know, and. Yeah, I mean, that's just my thought.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, he's got to stop yelling at Jonas. That would be my first piece of advice. Don't make Jonas mad. Don't yell at him. Remember, he did that at the tour in 2024.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

On the TWA stage. And then he was yelling at Primos at this race in 2023. 3. It's like, let's not make these guys mad. You know, the, the anti Remco who you barely notice. Felix. Goal. Sitting second. Second overall at this race. Quietly doing very well, like below the radar. Fifth at UAE Tour earlier this year. Last year, eighth at the Vuelta, fifth at the Tour, fourth at Tour of Switzerland, fifth at Tour of the Alps. You know, he's never really on the podium, but he's. I'm shocked at how consistent he has become since. Remember we were criticizing him. I think it was the 2024 Vuelta. He was all over the place

[Johan Berniel]

also. Spencer.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he was eight. Eight at the Vuelta this, this last year. Yeah.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And then the year before the Vuelta was like. It was one of the most inconsistent performances I'd ever seen, to the point of being confused and been very consistent since then. I mean, quite impressive writing from him.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, yeah, listen. I mean, great result. Climbs really well. I mean, he was already really good in. In UAE on that hard climb also, you know, he was the guy who started it. The attacks today again, right? Yeah. Looks like he's in for a great season. And doesn't go to the Tour, by the way. Goes for the Giro.

[Spencer Martin]

Yep. All in for the gir to tell you. And then the Tour, I guess, is Paul Seychas and Matthew.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Although I heard it's not been confirmed. It's not been confirmed. They're going to decide after the Ardennes Classics, but. But I think he's going to do the Tour. Say sh.

[Spencer Martin]

You probably should send your best rider to the Tour de France. Rule of thumb.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, well, depends if you're 19 years old, I would, I wouldn't.

[Spencer Martin]

I kind of agree. Someone said to me, why not like, what's the reason not to like? Is it mental, physical?

[Johan Berniel]

Nothing that can. There's nothing that can go wrong for Paul Seas right in the, in the Tour. I mean, if he, if he doesn't perform the way we expect, you know, everybody. Oh, you know he's 19. He needs to learn. It's going to be a great learning experience. So. Yeah, no, I, I think he should do another, another Grand Tour first. I would send him to the Vuelta.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, you're reminded that you're leading in perfect to this. So Dylan Gronnevagan, he's on Unibet Rose Rockets who were not invited to the Tour and people are upset about this, especially the younger, hipper crowd is not happy.

[Johan Berniel]

I don't understand why people are upset about this.

[Spencer Martin]

I would say, can you can't have your first Grand Tour as a team be the Tour de France?

[Johan Berniel]

Well, I mean, you can't. You, you can, but you know, I mean, it's, it's.

[Spencer Martin]

Has it ever happened before?

[Johan Berniel]

Team is three years old and they have hyped this up so much that everybody was assuming that it was going to be normal. But then if you look at the standings, there's a team that's better than them in the standings. It's Kakaral. You know, you can also say, yeah, why does Kakaral go to the Tour?

[Spencer Martin]

But, well, somebody.

[Johan Berniel]

Why would, why would Titama go to the Tour? Okay, they're the hip team, they're flashy, they're, you know, it's a different approach. Great. But you know, at the end of the day was in front of them in the standing, so. Plus, you know, Tour starts in Spain

[Spencer Martin]

might have some business with aso. It's.

[Johan Berniel]

It's a nice period. Yeah, it's. It's not the first time, by the way, that Kahadural is in the Tour de France, right? You know that, right?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I know that because you told me on a previous podcast. I did not know that otherwise, but we should. Gronovagen's won his last three races. His last race was, was fake, remember? It was at Bruges de Pana. It's not Bruges de Pon anymore. It's Bruges de Brugia. It's much safer, much better race. He beats Jasper Phillips in pretty freaking impressive performance. And what a pickup this guy has been for.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I, I did not see that one Comic Spencer. I thought, you know, like he had, you know, he was not at his best at Jayco. He comes from Jayco, right? Yeah, he was not as his best there, you know, for, for two or three seasons and couldn't really, you know, win. But man, the way he sprints now and the way the team is working around him also in the lead out to those sprints is pretty impressive. So, I mean, he won his last three sprints, his last three race starts, and he's actually.

[Spencer Martin]

Do you, do you remember his last Tour win? It's not as long ago as people think.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, I know, I know, I know. He was on, he was on jco.

[Spencer Martin]

No, jco. Yeah, he won. I believe it was their only win in 2024.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Last year. He's on JCO as well.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. But still, you know, he's never, he's not been at this level for a while and. Yeah. And also first World Tour win for Titama, so, you know, that's obviously a great step in the right direction, but. Yeah, I mean, I don't think they should be in the Tour. Although you could say. Well, with grune wig. And now, you know, he's back with sprinting with these guys. But, you know, sprints in the Tour are different. That's a different game. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, I almost think it's, it's for their benefit not to be.

[Johan Berniel]

It is. Well, they, they go to the Giro,

[Spencer Martin]

they go to the zero, and they could do very well.

[Johan Berniel]

They could prove it there, you know, so. And they're probably going to do well.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, they're going to. I think they could crush the Giro d' Italia style. Sprints can suit them really well. I think it's, I think it's a blessing this guy's not to go to the Tour for them.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

For this year also. Do you know, so the, the team in first and win rankings right now, not, Not a shock. It is UAE with 17 wins. Do you know who is second and how many wins they have?

[Johan Berniel]

How many, how many wins has UE?

[Spencer Martin]

17 wins.

[Johan Berniel]

17.

[Spencer Martin]

I don't think that counts. Del Toro, even though technically his national championship wins should count.

[Johan Berniel]

Who's second?

[Spencer Martin]

They're not far back.

[Johan Berniel]

It's not Ineos.

[Spencer Martin]

No, it's in Aos. 13 wins.

[Johan Berniel]

Wow. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Best start in a long time for that team.

[Johan Berniel]

Wow. That's impressive. That's a great, that's a great change. I mean, there's been seasons they didn't win that many races.

[Spencer Martin]

Two years ago, I don't think they weren't even close to that many races. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something to keep an eye on. I, I, I mean, Gorian Dorian Gon, one of the best quiet pickups you've seen in a long time. That, that is, that's pretty impressive today.

[Johan Berniel]

Also, Spencer, what we, we did mention also we, we've been hammering on, on Remco, but big disappointment. Oscar, only you Know, he. He should have been up there. I don't know if he had a problem or not, but he was definitely not in that crash.

[Spencer Martin]

Only and Almeida both.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Okay.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, I guess we don't. I don't know. I couldn't tell you if only was definitively in the crash or not. But. Yeah, he finishes two and a half minutes back. Not great. What's weird is he's been good earlier this year. That's what I don't fully get about what's going on with Oscar Onley this week. Another wait. So we have Almeida and then like enrich someone like Enrique moss. He finishes 13th, 145 back today. Like, is he just totally out of the Grand Tour podium game at this point because of guys?

[Johan Berniel]

100%. Yeah. Also ending. Moss comes back from a big injury. Yeah. He had. Last year. He had a problem in his leg. Like a. How do you call that? Like a thrombosis. They call like blood clots in the. In the legs.

[Spencer Martin]

He missed the last half of the season, basically.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. And so he comes back from far. So let's give him some credit. But anyways, you know, Andre Moss is out of poem contention for sure in this peloton.

[Spencer Martin]

For sure. And that's why UD Brooks is there and Movistar. I gotta try something. Right.

[Johan Berniel]

Pretty well. Pretty well. Yeah. He did right. I did well. He was with Remco.

[Spencer Martin]

No, he was with. Yeah, well, one second behind. Yeah. Basically with Remco.

[Johan Berniel]

Also comes back from, you know, a wrist fracture, elbow fracture in, In Valencia, by the way.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. And then his first race back was Milano Torino where he was really good.

[Johan Berniel]

He was up there. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Florian Lipowitz, fourth today. You would not say it's not a bad performance, but that's. He's. He's gonna have to improve, obviously, to. To continue to get on the podium again with the Tour this year.

[Johan Berniel]

For sure. For sure. You know, like, I. I have the impression he was a bit. A bit better last year at this point. I think he was second or third in Paris.

[Spencer Martin]

No, he was second in Berry. Nice. Yeah, Very good.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Fourth, the Basque Country.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah, but, you know, he's up there. He's up there. You know, it's steady. He's steady. You know, so listen, it's going to be extremely difficult for Lipovitz to repeat that podium. Right. But, but listen, I mean, he's one year stronger, quietly progressing and he, you know, he's always there, he's steady.

[Spencer Martin]

It's going to be hard for him to repeat the podium because Felix Skull is going to be on that podium the way he's right.

[Johan Berniel]

No, he's not. Because he's not doing the tour.

[Spencer Martin]

So, I mean, that shows you they might. And because what's the alternative? Felix Gall goes to the Giro and then they don't send Paul Seychelles to the tour? That doesn't make any sense.

[Johan Berniel]

No, no, they're gonna. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

The decision must have been made.

[Johan Berniel]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, Johan, do you have anything else before we go?

[Johan Berniel]

No, I. I need to run, Spencer. I have a. I have a dinner in Madrid. So it's, you know, late. Late Spanish dinner, typically.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, late. These. These dinner times are insane over there. But have a good dinner. We'll be back at the end of the weekend for and final day of final, I guess two days of Catalonia. But thank you for joining us and we'll talk soon.

[Johan Berniel]

Okay, thanks, Spencer. Okay, bye.

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