A (7:36)

There's a lot, there's a lot to say about the Vuelta and we're gonna get a bit more in details about you know, the circumstances that surrounded this and this, this Vuelta. But I think my takeaway is that the big pre race favorite won the race. Jonas Wingergaard, he was the huge favorite. The big pre race challenger, Jaw Almeida finished second. And then the surprising third spot of Tom Pidcock. I think nobody expected him to be in third. And then, you know, I mean listen, at least there was suspense I think in, in during the whole race there was never a stage to say okay, now it's over. You know it was actually until stage 20 before stage 20 we still thought that there could be a change in the leader's jersey. So that was good for the race. And then also Spencer, one of my observations is that only seven teams won stages in this, in this Vuelta, you know, UAE won seven, seven stages. Seven stages for one team. That's. It's been a while. Opposite and Visma and Ineos each won three stages and then little track and Red Bull and Groupama won one. 17 teams did not win. 16 teams did not win a stage. So yeah, in a nutshell I think that's, that's it. And yeah, as you said, you know, Pedersen the expected winner of the, of the green jersey, UAE strongest team. Nice to see Matteo, Matthew Riccatello come, you know, into stepping a big step forward I think in his career finishing fifth in, in the, in the Vuelta and winning the white jersey, the young classification on the stage which was nice. And Jay vine, king of the mountains second year in a row. No, because he also won it last year and I think. But yeah, I mean I think that it's. I think everybody leaves the va and especially the spectators with a unsatisfied feeling I think because you know, we had these protests looming over the race during three weeks and we never knew, you know, when a stage was going to be Able to be held or not or whether it was going to be able to finish at the right place. And then, yeah, yesterday it all came to a mess in Madrid, where even 1500 extra police men couldn't control the situation. That was really a shame. And, you know, I really feel for the guys, you know, especially the guys who have been fighting for three weeks and, you know, you win a grand Tour, Jonas, you win the green jersey in Peterson, you win the king of the mountains, you win the white jersey, and you are not able to celebrate it. You don't have the podium. You know, this iconic picture on the Castellana in front of the post office building, which is a really nice building. It's a beautiful picture that everybody wants to have. And now I saw that they had. I mean, at the initiative of Visma, they organized, you know, an improvised podium ceremony on the parking lot of the hotel. That's really too bad. That's too bad.

B (11:01)

Yeah. I can't imagine I felt so bad for the writers yesterday. I mean, we'll talk. I have questions about why that stage even got started. Because you said 1500 police, but you look at the scenes, they needed a million police. There's just no amount of police that could have kept people off the road. It didn't seem totally safe for them to even go there. They probably just turned around and rode back to the airport, I guess. I don't even. Because they couldn't get to their team buses. But we'll talk about that later in the episode. I kind of want to talk about. I want to make sure we cover the racing before we move on to the sadness. I did. I was going through these stages, and I was thinking, wow, this. This racing was actually pretty good. But this race as a whole was probably less than the sum of its parts, because, as you said, you're. It was always looming over, like, is the stage gonna get canceled? Like, where's the finish line? Are they gonna be able to do this climb? I do think they probably overused the Uni Puerto stage profile. Seemed like that was every other stage, and I was just listing the winners there. It felt like half of those winners were one on rolling stages that finished on a final climb. Oftentimes not even you would say not difficult enough, too. Like, it looked on paper like it'd be tough, and then it's like, well, it's not. The juice isn't worth the squeeze, so no one's gonna make the race hard. And just. It felt a little like we were at Groundhog Day. Just the Same stage over and over again. I will say Jonas Vinagard, we should give this man some credit. People are saying we're too critical of him, but this guy wins his.

A (12:29)

I don't think we've been critical of him, Spencer. I mean, I think they're more critical. Some people sometimes read differently into certain comments. You know, like when we list, let's say Jonas is double to the France winner. You know, it's, it's logical that he wins. And then you say, yeah, you know, he's a pretty good writer. Which is a sarcastic way of saying he's damn good writer. And some people sometimes say, you know, you're too hard on Jonas. I don't think we're, I think, I mean, I think he's, you know, I think we're applauding him. I mean he's, he was the favorite and he, he was not 100% and still wins the Valta. It's an amazing performance.

B (13:11)

I mean, Sepkus said he was having trouble breathing in the second week. You're like, that's kind of a flex on your rivals. Like, yeah, I could barely breathe. I didn't get dropped at any point though, or lose any significant time. And I won the overall. But his last seven Grand Tour starts, this is not even finished. It starts our second. First, first, second, second, second, first. It's unbelievable. Has not finished off the second step of a podium at a Grand Tour overall since 2020, his first ever Grand Tour, which was the falter, oddly. But this guy is unbelievable. And I actually going back through and calculating that like where he took time, he really kind of won this race in the first few stages, you know, like he came in strong, pushed his advantage. He had a 38 second lead by like the first, you know, after those first two summit finishes. And then he, I, I do wonder if this is the Grand Tour where we finally put to bed like, oh, these gaps are small, but they'll get bigger in the mountains because they actually didn' get smaller in the mountains because that's the variables are less so you. If everyone's at roughly the same fitness, it's harder to open gaps. Really the, the fruitful areas to open gaps were those mild, ish, uphill finishes, high speed, uphill finishes, let's call them in Italy, outside of Torino in the first week and then couple of the time trials some time changed hands. But it was really like it, it was the Grand Tour of, of like fine margins almost. And I thought that's where Jonas kind of shined above the rest who are. But it was like very clear at this race, like, oh, there's a reason this guy wins a lot and almost never finishes.

A (14:47)

And also, Spencer, if you look at, if you look at the situation now, in hindsight, right. We, we. And I think it's logical that, you know, there's, there's one big favorite and people always are waiting until the big favorite cracks. And if the underdog can take, take it, I think that's natural reaction. But Jonas has been in trouble once. I mean, I, I wouldn't say really in trouble because I mean, he got dropped a bit, a tiny bit from Tom Pidcock, who was not his direct rival.

B (15:17)

Yeah.

A (15:17)

But other than that, he has never, ever, ever lost any time to Joel Almeida except the time trial, you know, and that was 10 seconds. So he had this under control, man. It was, you know, he did. He didn't have the, the condition and the strength to make a big difference, but he was never actually under pressure where it was holding on for dear life. That has never been the case. And I think we as spectators are trying to see, oh, let's see if now finally the underdog can make life difficult for the big favorite. But it actually has never happened whenever. I mean, I think the, the, the Angli Ru. I, I think is the hardest climb and he, but you know, he was never, ever on the, on the verge of getting dropped, I think.

B (16:11)

Yeah, yeah, that's a very good point. He did not get dropped by his main GC rival at any point going through, I actually was surprised. I made a great race. Right. To finish 116.

A (16:21)

How his best, also his best Grand Tour result ever. Let's not forget that.

B (16:26)

Yeah.

A (16:27)

You know, that's also one of the things we can say. Okay, Almeida, great rider, he's, he had a great season. He won three, you know, big one week stage races this year, had been on the podium of the Giro, but he's never been higher than third. And you just listed seven top two results from yours. So yeah, you know, it kind of logical. It's pure mathematics. You know.

B (16:52)

We'Re like, we're veering into American television of deduct, like reductionism of like there's winners and losers in sports and Jonas is a winner. But it kind of is like that. Like this guy just, he just wins. And Almeida was close, as you say. I mean, to finish second to Jonas, that's not finishing second to. All due respect, Simon Yates at the, at the Giro, this is like one of the best in the last two decades, stage racers but joelameda, is it fair to say, looking back on this felt that he's a defensive rider. And the problem is he was never in the lead. So he's able to defend very well, but he can only play defense against someone like that.

A (17:31)

But it's also, I think one of the differences between, for example, a Joao Almeida and let's say Italy Poga is in terms of rival for Jonas, is that Almeida is actually the ideal rival for Jonas because he doesn't have that acceleration. Whenever he wins or tries to make a difference, it's by riding his own tempo and really, really fast. And then he basically asphyxiates his. His rivals and has a good sprint. Right. Whereas Bogachar has his explosive and, you know, makes a gap and then can maintain the gap or even extend the gap. So I think that for. For Jonas in your. Almeida was the ideal rival. You know, obviously he made him suffer, but he was never dropped because Almeida is this type of rider. First he backs off a bit, he gets his tempo and he goes faster and faster and faster. And, you know, if Almeida's fastest rhythm will almost always be, if not ever, a good. A good rhythm for Jonas.

B (18:37)

Yeah. And he. He's kind of like a football team that go. They're amazing at defending and then they go one down and then it's like, oof. Now they have to try to play catch up at their grade.

A (18:47)

Also, we need to say also Spencer, you know, for. Let's not forget to. To props to. To Visma. They were short one rider very early in the race. So Zangle dropped out and then from mid. Mid race on Victor Campenaerts, who. Who actually got sick. And yesterday I heard I was at the race of my son and somebody told me there, who has a good relationship with Victor, that he actually went home out of precaution to not, you know, make the other riders sick, especially Jonas. So, you know, they did the race with the last part of the race with six riders, basically with two riders, I would say it was. And Von Bartlett, who, yeah, you know, did an amazing job. Amazing job to control this race.

B (19:44)

Yeah, I mean, I guess that fortune was in their favor because they didn't have to do anything on stage 20. But I frankly had forgotten they were down two riders by stage 20. They were so strong. And I was just gonna say I did feel like Visma does. They always make. They're very good at common sense. It's like they're a step ahead when it comes to, like, Victor going home early. That kind of makes sense like cost, cost benefit analysis. But this, this brings us right into our partner today.

A (20:13)

Common sense. Common sense. Spencer. Even to the extent that thanks to Visma there was a podium celebration of, of the Tour of Spain.

B (20:24)

So true.

A (20:24)

They, they, they even took that initiative.

B (20:27)

Mr. Pluga over there, he's, he's, he's got a, a head on his shoulders, always thinking. But this brings us into one of our partners, Ketone iq. Because team Visma bike uses the Ketone IQ products.

A (20:39)

The.

B (20:39)

One of the main products our favorite at the move is the Ketone IQ Classic shot. Helps with high performance energy, has 10 grams of ketones, a clean shot of energy with no sugar or caffeine. It helps and I think we saw this with Visma. It helps with recovery and it boosts athletic performance. Because of that, in a placebo controlled study with trained athletes, it boosted average sprint power by 19%. I need to use this by what, by the way, if I could get my power power up 19% in the sprint, I'd be cruising peak power by 13%. Cut fatigue by 10% and spiked blood ketones five times in just 20 minutes aided with faster recovery. And as, as Gabriel pointed out, our producer at the Tour, we, we can get a little bogged down in the afternoons. He was using the Ketone IQ Classic shot and reported not feeling that afternoon bonk. When you're, when you're sitting at the computer trying to get a bunch of shows out. And if you need a little bit more, they have the Ketone IQ plus caffeine with a hundred milligrams of caffeine with five grams of ketone, five grams of ketones and it just gives you a little bit more extra kick. So if you want to take your shot, get 20% off your order@ketone.com the move and use code the move at checkout to get 20% off. But Johan Visma was great. I, we were pretty critical. I thought the team we were most critical of was uae. Throughout this race we were often confused by their tactics. They finished with seven stage wins, second overall.

A (22:03)

Looking back, plus, plus the team classification plus the kom.

B (22:07)

Yeah team team. The most important one. We forgot that. But yeah, KLM teams looking back, I do kind of struggle with the, their like logic premises, but I think in terms of outcome this is probably the best outcome they could have gotten.

A (22:23)

Right? I think so. I think so. You know, I think you know, as we said in another podcast, Spencer, you know, you can talk about tactics and strategies all, all day long. I don't think that any other tactics would have changed the result. I just think that. And they probably don't care. Right. I just don't think it didn't look good. When, you know, you have one leader and then you have these, all these free agents running around and going for stage wins and then not being there the day that they had to be there. Would it have made a difference? I'm going to say no, it wouldn't have made a difference. And it's, it's probably also because, you know, we are here sitting behind our screens and looking at our TVs and, and judging and trying to analyze, but they know what the word and the value and the power numbers of the writers are. And maybe they knew all day, all the vuelta long, that it was going to be extremely difficult for Jaw Almeida to. To drop Jonas. Yep. Then on the other hand, you can say, okay, you know, in the case of uae, why should they care about seven stagements? Why should they care about the ko. The Kom. Why should they care about the king of the mountains? Let's try to win a Grand Tour with someone who's not today. Pugach. That would have been great. But hey, at the end of the day, man, it's a pretty good Vuelta for them, you know, second overall, seven stage wins. They, you know, they remain, you know, the strongest team by far, by far in pro cycling right now. And there's not much. I think it's, I think it's more. The criticism has been more about the behavior of certain riders rather than the tactics. And we don't know actually if the tactics were A, and then some riders said or did B. We don't know that. Right. I mean, I would think there was some kind of disagreement early on, but especially with Ayuso, you know, but that was kind of outside of the race with that press release. And, and then I used to going for stage wins and not being there when he needed to be there. But, you know, on stage 20, they were all there. They were all there. They all did what they had to do and there was nothing to be done against Jonas. So which other stages could have, could they have done something differently? You know, we're in, we're here to talk about, you know, strategies and what's good, what's not good. But if you, if, if you put it all together, it's, you know, you have to have the, the legs and that's. Sometimes it's a lot more simple than we try to analyze or overthink.

B (25:17)

Yeah. And I thought on stage 20, it almost was. It made me rethink what I was saying a lot of the times because they did everything right, quote, unquote. But then you even saw with like vine does this like death surge, which, with Pagachos there. What it does, I believe is it. It puts everyone behind over threshold, so they're. If they follow Pagachar, they blow up. Pagachar's better, so he's not blowing up and then he can drop them. But when you have Almeida and Vinegar stronger, that's only helping Vinegard. It doesn't have to. And if you look at it, one of his biggest gaps was on the stage where UAE worked really hard all day. So you can kind of. If you say they know this, they.

A (26:02)

Have got beaten by another teammate, but another Visma Visma was 1 and 2 and UAE did all the work, you know. So, yeah, we, we tend to overthink the, you know, the importance of, of certain, certain strategies. But yeah, I mean, we have to, right?

B (26:27)

Yeah, we have to. We wouldn't have a show. And then in retrospect, Jay vine going hard on stage 18 didn't really affect him. And that would have been pretty badass to win that time trial over Felipe Ghana.

A (26:38)

Yeah.

B (26:38)

I'm still looking back.

A (26:39)

Imagine one second.

B (26:41)

Yeah. But then just a couple of questions for you that I have bouncing around in my head. So Joel made it second. Very good race. His best Grand Tour ever. And Jonas, I think also the best.

A (26:54)

Ever result for Portugal in a Grand Tour in history. I think, I think there's one rider I know once he was. I know he was once third in the tour. There was a writer in the 80s, it's called Joaquim. Agostinho was a super, super strong rider. Unfortunately died very, very early in the, you know, in the last season of his career. He was in 39 or 40. He got. He crashed in the Tour of Portugal. I remember watching this as a kid because, you know, Agostinho was this super strong. He was. He was massive. I mean, if you Google him, you'll see he was not. He was like a rock. He was, you know, very solid, big guy, super strong. Third in the Tour. Sometimes was up there with Eddie Merckx and sometimes with Bernardino, I think in. In the, in the early 80s. And so I think this guy got second once in a Grand Tour. But it could also be that it's the first time that it's that somebody in Portugal is second in a Grand Tour. So that's pretty big.

B (28:03)

And so Would you say it's fair to say is the third best Grand Tour GC rider currently racing.

A (28:16)

Based on, based on current performance and recent performance? I would say yes. I would say yes. Then if you look at the results, I would say no because I mean I think the current, the current third best rider is probably should be Simon Yates because he won the Vuelta and he won the Giro and, and yeah, won the Tour and the, and the Giro. But Bernal is not anymore at the level he was before his accident. But I, I would say, you know, currently with, with and the potential he has, I think Almeida is probably the third best rider that.

B (28:55)

And that. Well, I agree.

A (28:56)

Yeah, well, no, no, sorry, I'm going to take that back. Actually. I think it's Primos.

B (29:02)

Oh, I think it's. Yeah. Wow, man.

A (29:07)

How fast do we forget?

B (29:08)

We do, we do forget. I think though. And I don't, I don't know what was going on at the Tour, but it's kind of hard for me to. I don't quite know what the future holds for Primos.

A (29:17)

Well, I mean, listen, Primos, the Tour, I don't think we can just. Primos on the Tour. He, he went all in for the Giro, crashed. Unfortunately. Primos crashes often, but if you look at his Palmares, I mean come on, he's one. Well, did he win four times or five times the world. Four times. No.

B (29:34)

How many times did it. Roberto.

A (29:36)

Four times. He won the Giro once.

B (29:38)

I think he's one. Four times.

A (29:40)

I'm not, I don't. Yeah, I think it's four. Yeah, he's equal with, he's equal with Roberto Heras now.

B (29:46)

I guess the prem. I guess I should have quite questions. You know, let's say these guys are all lined up for the Tour next year on different teams and you have to pick 1, 2, 3, like the finish order. I might put Almeida above primos like in 2026.

A (30:04)

Well, yeah, yeah, I, I agree.

B (30:08)

It's tough. It's not obvious. The more I think about it.

A (30:10)

I mean listen now Almeida is second now, beaten by the second best stage racer in the world. And he had a great team around him. So you know, and he, he, I would say also it's difficult to judge Spencer because I don't think you can say that Almeida had an ideal preparation to the Vuelta because he crashed really, really hard in the Tour de France and it took a long time for him to recover from the injuries. Broken ribs or you know, bruised rips or whatever. So. But anyway, who had an ideal preparation? Jonas Didn't. Because he was tired from the Tour. Pitcock, you could say Pidcock maybe had the best preparation, but it wasn't. It was not. It was not. His season wasn't focused around the Vuelta. His season was focused on the classics. Then he did some mountain biking, then he did the Giro.

B (31:08)

You know, it's actually. Yeah.

A (31:09)

Who was. Who had the best preparation here? That's. And that's the typical situation always of the Vuelta. The Vuelta is the. The second or the third chance for the people who haven't been able to be successful in their main exam earlier in the season.

B (31:27)

And. Well, okay, that takes me to my next question. Preparation. I thought Pitcock, yeah, it actually aligned pretty well for him. But someone else that I thought would be better prepared, that was not. Why are you so like. So he crashes out of the. Didn't. Yeah, he crashes in the Giro, leaves with a bee sting. But his knee was clearly bothering him. He has all summer to prepare for the Vuelta. The team says he's a co leader with and then shows up, gets dropped on the first mountain stage, and then says, well, I'm not prepared. I'm not a leader.

A (31:57)

Yeah, I think, I think logical explanation for that, Spencer. I think it was never the plan. It was not the plan for Almeida for Ayuso to do the Giro. I think I saw somewhere earlier in the season a statement from uae and I would suspect that things were still. I'm going to say more or less. Okay. We don't really know. Right. What the situation was between UAE and. Are you. So I think there's two different things there. In with Iuso, there's the situation between the team boss and riders and Ayusu, and then there's a situation. Machin Ayusu, which is a good relationship. So I think for Machin, it's also really difficult. Martin is the sports manager. Right. But. But in the case of Ayuso, UAE put out a statement sometime that they said they wouldn't have their young riders do two Grand Tours in one season. So it was not the plan. And I think while Ayusu was. So he abandoned the Giro, he didn't do the Tour. And it was initially the plan that Pogachar would do the Vuelta. And Pogachar, I think, decided probably in the last week of the Tour that he was for sure not going to the Vuelta because he was sick of it.

B (33:20)

Yeah.

A (33:21)

And then I think it came between as a negotiation that I also would do the Vuelta. See how it goes in the middle of all these Negotiations for him to leave the team. You know, he was not prepared, end of story. You know, not physically and especially not mentally. His, his, his mind is already.

B (33:41)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (33:43)

Next year, which by the way, is going to be a little trek. I saw that he's on the verge of, I mean, it's not official, but I think we can say it here with pretty high certainty that he's going to sign with little track for five years.

B (34:00)

Didn't you say, why do these guys.

A (34:01)

Do these long contracts? I think I just, just, I am blown away. It's, you know, why would you sign five years? If you're dealing with writers, with agents who as soon as something doesn't go right, they look for an out. I mean, this. I think there's, there's enough precedence now. You know, there's Remco who leaves early on his, on his contract. There's a, there's contracts being broken, like legally. In Belgium, autobrokes and Maxim Van Gils terminated their contract legally. So why would you sign five years? I mean, five years is a long time.

B (34:42)

And so if, let's say you're right, so you're going little trek. It's the. And I said, I think at the start of the Volta, maybe this was a private conversation, that the vault is extremely predictive of the next year. So Vinegar's great, right? We knew he was great. But Almeida looks, ooh, like this guy's. He's building confidence. He's getting better. He's got second. Tom Pickock, that guy could be a GC podium contender for a while. Jai Henley is back. Matthew Ricatello is turning up. Julio Pelizari looks fantastic, sixth overall in his second Grand Tour of the year.

A (35:13)

As a 21 year old.

B (35:15)

21 year old Seth Kuss looks great. Felix Gall looks great. Tired from the Tour, still finishes eighth. Mateo Jorgensen, tired from the Tour, finishes 10th. Not what he wanted, but he, he's good. He could podium a Grand Tour. It's actually like not. Doesn't look great if it's becoming a crowded market. If you want to go be a GC leader somewhere, like, there's a lot of good writers. Like think about Jai Henley.

A (35:36)

See, yeah.

B (35:37)

See the 4th, 5th. If you think of a Remco Evanopole. Where do you even stand on the gc?

A (35:43)

Red Bull and Simon Yates.

B (35:44)

Yeah. So it's, it's tough living Lipowitz yet coming up. So, man, that's that talk about not remembering stuff. Lipowitz, third at the Tour de France. Wow. But Mike the thing I was going to ask you the last question before we move on. Will Joao Mehta win a Grand Tour in his career?

A (36:04)

I think he has it definitely in him. I think he can win a Giro, he can win a Vuelta, Tour de France. It's different. And, you know, as long as he's on uae, he's not going to win the Tour when, When Boracha goes for it. But listen, he's up there with the three, four top riders in GC and for, For. And he seems to be, he seems to be a great teammate whenever Pogacha is there. Seems to get along really, really well with Bogachar. So I think he can win a Grand Tour next year, maybe the Giro. Why not? He was up. He was third already.

B (36:42)

Yeah, yeah. I think he, if he's healthy at the Giro this year, like that's, that's the race, he probably would have won that type of Grand Tour where it's not Pigaja or not.

A (36:53)

But, you know, another guy I really, I really want to touch a bit on, on Tom Pidcock. Spencer. I think nobody would have thought that he would be third in this Vuelta. Not even himself, not his team. I think, you know, they, they would, they were trying for AGC top 10, maybe top five, third position. The way he held on. He had a few difficulties stages, but he did not crack at all. And so my question is, now, you know, what's next and what's the future for Tom Pitcock in terms of stage racing and grand Tours? This was a hard Vuelta. You know, this, the competition. I mean, look, I mean, Vingegaard, multiple Grand Tour winner. Almeida now multiple Tour de France Tour Grand Tour podium, Henley Grand Tour winner. He's up there with these guys. So will we now see Pitcock make a shift in his mind and try to see where his limit is in Grand Tours? And I think he kind of hinted a bit this could also obviously be the, the, the, the high, the high of the moment. But after the state, after the race, he said, yeah, you know, I mean, I, I now, I now start to think that maybe I can win a Grand Tour one day. Which I personally think Pidcock is one of the biggest talents in cycling. It's just a matter of him focusing purely on stage racing. And I think if he does one or two seasons focusing on stage racing and long climbs and recovery, this guy, if there's one guy who can add his name to the elite of the few big ones, the big three, the big four, whatever, I think it's Tom Pidcock.

B (38:46)

Yeah, I agree. I actually think this is going to help them in non Grand Tour goals. I do want to talk about that on the other side of the break, but in terms of gc, Tom Pitcock, very good. Getting third here. Here. Here's something I didn't quite realized until I looked at it. Wrote it all down. So he's not. He's on Q 36.5. That's probably the first obstacle. And you think like, well, they're well funded team, they're good. What's the problem? Do you know how many of the last nine Grand Tours, how many of those were won by teams that are not Visma or uae?

A (39:21)

Of the last nine? So that's the last three years.

B (39:25)

Yeah.

A (39:27)

Well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna guess none, right?

B (39:29)

One. And it's because you don't. You don't remember it because it's. Primo's on a different team on Red Bull.

A (39:34)

Yeah, Primo's on Red Bull. Yeah.

B (39:36)

Visma's won five of the last seven Vueltas. And then one of those is a fake Visma, because Primo's won one of those and then Renco's the other one. Like, it's actually. And then this rivalry between. You think of the rivalry as between Vindegaard and Pagachar, it's actually really between Visma and UAE because, you know, they've won what, Visma's won five of those nine. UAE's won three. All those are Pagatra. But if you go back to the Giro this year, that was Visma versus uae, Simon Yates versus Isaac del Toro, and then at the Vuelta, Vinegard versus Almeida. So it actually is like, I didn't quite realized how good this rivalry was, but also that the Grand Tours are just won by the same two teams. It's kind of shocking to see.

A (40:21)

Yeah, yeah, it's quite impressive. Yeah.

B (40:24)

But let's take a quick break and then I do want to talk about Tom Pickock, and I think this sets him up for World Championships quite well. Everybody. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I drink AG1 every day because I was tired of taking supplements and wanted a single solution that supports my entire body and covers my nutritional bases. Every day. I would needed better gut health, a boost in energy, immune system support, and I'm terrible at taking vitamins, pills, and frankly, eating. Eating my greens, if I must admit. Every morning I come down, I have my AG1 canister in the fridge. I got my little AG1 mixer. I just dump it in with some water, shake it up, drink it. I'm on the treadmill and I'm feeling great and giving my body the nutrition it craves. And all you have to do if you want to try ag1 yourself is head to drink ag1.com themove to get a free welcome kit, including a bottle of vitamin D and five AG1 travel packs. That's a 76 value when you first subscribe. That's drink ag1.com themove and. And AG1 has leveled up even more with their AG1 next gen. It's an upgraded formula that's been clinically proven to increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times, all for the same price of less than $3 per day. So remember, head to drink ag1.com themove for 10 off. Okay, Johan, you're talking about Tom Pitcock finishing third. I think a break, personally, I think a breakthrough ride for this guy just to get through a race. It was talking about I use. So, like, I don't like that he. You know, once you sit up and you're not in the gc, it's hard to transform back into a GC rider. Well, Pidcock did that because now he's proven, like later in his career that he can ride for GC in a great tour. He's still young, but he actually, well, he's the same age. What's funny is, like, all these guys are roughly the same age and we're talking about. People talk about Pagacha retiring and I'm like, well, he's the same age as Remco and Pidcock. Basically, like, yeah, I don't think he's going anywhere anytime soon, but I think we're talking about the GP Montreal that we watched this weekend. Fantastic race. Both Quebec and Montreal. Like, I would say put American, if you could even say American bike racing exists anymore. Like, those two races look fantastic and are doing great, but Brandon McNulty won. Taddy Pagar kind of let him win. They crossed the line together at Montreal. But we were saying we're really reaching here at this point, though, what we're saying, Pagacho did not. I don't think he looked as strong as he did last year at these races before he won Worlds in Zurich. They're going to Kigali. And the race is in two weeks, less than two weeks, unless I'm mistaken. And it's at altitude at 5,000ft. Who amongst these people? I don't know if anyone looks incredibly well Prepared. Except I think this Vuelta is like perfect preparation for Tom Pick.

A (43:18)

It's also not altitude training. They have been at altitude a bit. But listen, I think Pidcock is somebody that for the world championships needs to be reckoned with. You know, it's obviously not. Nobody can say with this form that this course is too hard for Pitcock. There is no way. I mean, it's perfect for him. Yeah, it's even actually, I think it's great because the climbs are. There's a lot of climbing, but it's a lot of repetition. So the climbs are not extremely long. Maybe two, two and a half kilometers max. I don't know, I haven't really analyzed the course, but it's not like mountain passes, right? It's not super, super long climbs. So listen, in this form, man, I think Bitcock could be a rival for. I mean, normally, listen, Pogacciar has an almost identical trajectory compared to last year. Won the Tour, I think last year, finished the Tour with more energy than this year. But then he started back in Quebec and Montreal, Quebec, he tried to win, finished seventh and then Montreal, he won dominantly. This year he did the same. He tried to attack once, didn't work. Finished further down yesterday, attacked at exactly the same lap as last year. Two laps to go. Then, you know, Brandon McNulty dropped Quinn Simmons and you know, stayed there at 15 seconds until Pogachia waited for him. It's difficult to say, you know, he's up there. He's at that close to that level, is he? I think it's more a mental and freshness case than physical condition. But, but he won't win every year. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's bike racing, you know, it's not a guarantee everybody thinks is going to show up at the race and he's going to win whenever it's hard. I mean, he won't win every year and, and maybe this year he doesn't win and somebody else will win. And that person could for sure be Tom Pidcock.

B (45:29)

Yeah, I mean, worlds is the weirdest of all the races. I, I quite like it because it's just, it's strange, right? Even think of Flanders. Fantastic race. Little. It's become formulaic, you know, it's like we know exact. Everyone knows exactly when they have to expend a certain amount of energy. Worlds, I mean, they just like cook up a new route every year and then even when they cook it up, it's kind of ambiguous. I'm looking not A lot of information about this route. I don't think anyone's recond it. There is one longer climb, 6k long at 7% in the middle of the road.

A (46:00)

That's not on the local laps. That's in the middle.

B (46:02)

No, that's on the extended lap. And those local laps, you know they wear people out. Like think about Scotland. Who would have thought Glasgow and the.

A (46:10)

Distance, Spencer, I mean World championships is. What is it, 260? 270 basically.

B (46:14)

270. Oh I'm seeing. Is it correct? 5,000 meters of climbing? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

A (46:20)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's 5,000 meters climbing.

B (46:23)

I think it's over. It's like 5,300. That's a lot of climbing.

A (46:26)

Yeah.

B (46:27)

But I think what Pitcock is held him back in years past is like not having that depth sometimes and you know it's a great writer and he would kind of get burned off in these harder races by guys like Pagacha but guys like Pigachar, Katie Picacho, there's only one. But I think man coming out of this Vuelta he looks robust, he looks very fit. I would not write him off for worlds.

A (46:50)

Another, another observation Spencer is it's a shame that Jonas Vingaard is not going to the worlds.

B (46:58)

Yeah, this is, this is a great.

A (46:59)

Course for him too. I mean yes, it's true that Jonas is not famous for great performances in one day races. I think he only won one one day race in his career actually don't.

B (47:14)

Really small one day race. It's not World tour. It is. I believe it's one of. Remember these early season French races.

A (47:23)

The name the Drone Classic.

B (47:25)

I think that's the only one.

A (47:26)

But that's obviously also because I mean it's not because he can't win them, it's because he just doesn't focus on them and he just not motivated for them and he knows that his strength is in, in stage races. But it would be great to see Jonas and, and today and Primos is going. Let's not forget about Primos. Careful with Primos in the worlds.

B (47:53)

Is Primus been altitude training?

A (47:56)

I don't know but he's for sure. I mean he's. It's possible if he's not prepared. He wouldn't, he would. I don't think he would be a candidate himself to go to the world.

B (48:05)

So I think he has a house at altitude in the Alps too. So he, he might actually be out there correctly preparing when no one else is.

A (48:14)

Yeah, yeah. So yeah it's. I Would. I would love Jonas to see him, but, you know, I mean, he's done the Tour, he's done the Vuelta, and the Vuelta, he carried a bit of illness, looked like, okay, good enough to win, but not dominant. So I can also understand that at some point, you know, you. You say, hey, I don't want to drag this on for another two or three weeks, you know.

B (48:40)

Yeah, it is a shame. I wish he was doing it. He's doing European Championships, you see.

A (48:45)

What. That's not. That's weird.

B (48:47)

That's.

A (48:47)

That's weird. That. Yeah. Where is the. Where are the European Championships?

B (48:51)

They're in France. It's. These are not. These UCI run races are not so easy to find information about. It does not list the location of it.

A (49:04)

Anyway, listen, the European Championships, it's. That's an artificial event.

B (49:09)

It might be in. Where is. In French Lemberg. Is that a thing?

A (49:14)

No, French Limburg.

B (49:15)

No, no, it's. So. Wow. Where is it? Prevas. Is the Prevost.

A (49:21)

That's in France. Okay, it's in France. But, yeah, I mean, the fact that we don't know. The fact that there's no information about it, it's an event that is there to keep the European Cycling Federation alive, which isn't needed. You know, it doesn't need to exist. The European Cycling Federation, it's just another one of those administrations that's there for the sake of existing. But, I mean, not saying, okay, when you have the European jersey as a writer, you're the European champion, you know, which is nice. But there's other continental champions, you know, there's the American. There's the. The. Is it the American or the Pan American champion?

B (50:10)

I don't. I don't want to comment on.

A (50:11)

There's the African one. There's the. There's the Asian one. I mean, nobody knows who they are.

B (50:19)

I would say not necessary. I don't think they add to the grassroots growth, the sport or development, but they're there nonetheless. I. I guess if he thought he could win, he would probably go. He must not.

A (50:30)

Well, I mean, you know, I mean, it could be that we see Jonas next year, being riding around all year long in the European champion jersey. Why not?

B (50:41)

Yeah.

A (50:43)

When is it? Actually?

B (50:44)

It says 10-1-5, 5, so.

A (50:47)

Wow, that's late.

B (50:49)

That is late. Can that be.

A (50:50)

Good luck with that. Good luck with that. With that date and getting a proper competitive field at the start, you know?

B (50:58)

Well, that is kind of weird, actually. Now that it is October 5th, I feel like it didn't Used to be that late. It's clearly a well run event that we know a lot about.

A (51:08)

It's an artificial event that's there for the sake of existing. It means nothing.

B (51:15)

Yeah, there's. There's quite a few of those.

A (51:17)

Yeah.

B (51:18)

Speaking of. And then, I mean, it's sad. I wish she was going. But it's also not that close. Like if you were like, hey, do you want to go to Kigali and Rwanda? Did I just finish the Tour in the Vuelta? I might say I'm gonna pass on that.

A (51:30)

Yeah, it takes, it takes extra preparation. Need to be there on beforehand, you know, I mean, there's not that much time difference with, with Europe, but it's this, it's. I mean, it's time difference for the guys who come from Canada. Not that I'm, I'm gonna assume that Bugachar and the U. I mean the Europeans who went to Canada, they didn't even take the time to adjust to the time zone from there. It's just better to do the races, get it over with and get back and stay on the European time zone because it fits better for, for Africa.

B (52:07)

Yeah. Picacho is like, you come back from Europe, you're waking up at like 4:00am, you're like, I'm just a 4:00am guy now. This is when I wake up. 8:00pm comes around.

A (52:17)

We didn't. I think we have to, we have to, we have to talk about it, you know, but about the Vuelta, these protests, man. Yeah, it's.

B (52:26)

What a shame, what a shame for.

A (52:27)

The Vuelta, what a shame for the riders, what a shame for the sport of cycling that this has happened. And you know, and I know that people are sometimes careful of, you know, like it seems that if you, you cannot have an opinion about it or you're getting judged as whatever pro Israel or pro this or pro that. I just think it's bullshit, these protests at these races. We've said already beforehand, cycling is accessible, the most accessible sport there is on the public roads during a very, very long distance, uncontrollable. But man, this has gotten out of hands here in Spain and you know, no stage yesterday, no podium. I'm sad for the riders and whoever wants to protest for any cause, they can do it in a different way. They, you know, they did put the, the safety in danger many times of the riders.

B (53:37)

Oh yeah. Think of the bottom of the climb on stage 20.

A (53:40)

Yeah. And yeah, and then, you know, then you have, I mean, I live in Spain and the president of Spain, Pedro Sanchez, coming Out with a statement like, you know, he's. Yesterday he was somewhere at an event in Andalusia and I saw his speech and actually I was watching it in the car and my son said, you know that. He says, he says, this is not true. This is. I, I said, no, this is true. And he said, no, this is AI. It's not possible. Then when we came home, I looked at the speech. It's true. The guy said, today we had our National Tour of Spain finishing. And this is the president of Spain. National Tour finished. Great job by the riders. We respect the riders. But I really applaud all the protesters who were present and applaud the Spanish people. I mean, this is crazy, man. I mean, like, it's goes beyond the, the, the problematic of what's happening in, in Israel and, and Palestine and Gaza. This was political. This was a political instrument used by the politicians here. Because if you look at who was there, I'm going to say the majority of the people were protesting, didn't know what they're protesting for. They just were there for the sake of protesting for anything. And that's what's, you know, what's so sad. So let's hope that this doesn't go any further in other sporting events, but I'm afraid that cycling is the most vulnerable sport and that this will be repeated in the future. So, yeah, I mean, don't want to look too far ahead, but, you know, the Spanish people now or the, the, the, these people who have organized these events, they've seen now it works. Do you remember where the Tour de France of next year starts?

B (55:44)

Yeah, I believe it starts in Spain. It's Spain. Well, and even outside of the Spanish people, these specific protests. Mikhail Kiakoski correctly said today that like, well, now the model's proven that if you want to draw attention to anything, you can shut down a bike race because there's.

A (56:06)

I read this interview of one of the sport directors of Israel. Premier Tech is Spanish. He's been there for a long time and he gave an interview that, you know, he, I don't know, I think he's from the Basque country. I'm not sure, but I think he's from the Basque country. And, you know, he had already given certain interviews because, you know, he gave his testimony what they were enduring during the race and he said, you know, we just want to do our job. You know, the poor guy had to abandon the Vuelta in the last week and go home to his family because his family at home was getting threatened for, for, for Their, their father and their, her husband being at the Vuelta, at directing a team.

B (56:55)

It's. Yeah, it's terrible. And they have these writers on like the team. It's not obviously not fair. And then, I don't know, the Spanish prime minister came out today and said, well, if Israel was banned from sport, none of this would be a problem. That's the simple solution. But I, I don't know if, I mean, setting aside just all of that, I don't even know sports.

A (57:17)

What, what will sport change to the, to the, I mean, listen, I mean, again, you know, people are careful to say what they, what they think because with the. I have absolutely. I mean, I don't have any fear of getting canceled or criticized. I just say, you know, do it in a different way. Don't go protest at a bike race or at a sporting event. It's, it's, and I, you know, it's, it has nothing to do with the core of the problem. That's, you know, that's clear to me.

B (57:48)

And what do people want? Do they want Israel Premier Tech, the team to go away?

A (57:52)

Well, what is that going to change? What is that? First of all, Spencer, let's not forget for the people who don't have any background, the team Israel Premier Tech is. First of all, it's not an Israelian team. It's a Canadian team. Right. Or well, it used to be Canadian.

B (58:12)

They are now, I believe, registered in Israel.

A (58:15)

Are they? Okay, I didn't know.

B (58:17)

I think we, that that's easily changed. But, you know, but it's, there's no.

A (58:21)

But it's a private person who, who invests money in a sports team who happens to be Canadian. Israelian. Right, Whatever. I mean, you can be in favor of the guy or against him or whatever. You know, he can like him or not like him. But let me tell you something, and I don't, I don't want to go in too much, you know, problems or controversy, but if we would x ray the majority of the teams in pro cycling and we just, this is just cycling. Let's, let's, let's just not think and talk about other sports which are much bigger. If, if for the sake of, or the principle of, of fairness and you know, and whatever happens, there will be a lot of teams left in the pro peloton. Let me tell you. There's. Every organization has its pros and it cons and I think, okay, they, now they made the decision though Israel is not in the name anymore. So obviously that's for a reason. At the end of the day, it's a team and they have a license. There's nothing against this team that can prohibit them from participating. As far as I know, there's, for the moment, nothing against any Israelian sports team, not even the national teams in any sports. They're participating everywhere. So why would you focus your energy and anger at a cycling team in the Tour of Spain? This is what I don't get.

B (59:52)

Yeah, a lot, lot to chew on there. But let's just. So this. I'm worried about the future. I'm worried about next year. Like, can any races happen? But, well, let's just say this. Let's say ASO goes to Israel, Premier Tech goes to Sylvan. Adams says, hey, man, we can't. This is not good. We can't have this. They come to an agreement. The team is registered in Canada. It's called Premier tech in 2026. Just hypothetically, are people okay with that? I would assume no. Right. And then it's just like, well, what, what do you want them to do? Do you. Do you just want them to go away? And then. I don't even think that would help, Johan, like, if there's no Israel, Premier Tech next year at the Tour, do we still have disruptive protests? Like, is Tour of Flanders going to get shut down? I'm concerned about all these races now.

A (60:35)

My, my question is, Spencer, all the shit that has been made here by these protesters, and I, I repeat, the majority of the protesters don't even know what they're protesting for. They're there because they are part of a movement in Spain and they just want to disrupt whatever they can disrupt. What will this change to the core of the horrible problems that are happening in that part of the world? It will change nothing.

B (61:12)

It's a drop in the ocean, I believe. Yeah, I guess we're applying logic to something where there's not logic. I have the same frustration, but here even I'm not going to say their name. But there's a team, another team in this Vuelta that's owned by the richest person in Israel. No one's protesting them. Also, there is a major Spanish soccer club sponsored by the richest person in Israel. Not sponsored. Owned by and like co owned. Co owned and do. Like, there's no protesters blocking their bus from going to the games. It's just. I don't fully understand why cycling. I guess it's easy. I guess it's an easy mark would be.

A (61:48)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Too bad. So Bad. I mean, listen, I mean, it was a great race, but I think everybody leaves with a really sad and bitter taste that, you know, it didn't have to end this way.

B (62:03)

Yeah. And I, I was confused, like, why did they even start this, this final stage? Obviously they couldn't. And then Daniel Fried thought, had a good perspective on it where it's like, well, the, the actual people working at the race, like the organizers are like, they're stressed, they're working their butts off. Total nightmare for them. Right. And they're like, not even in a frame of mind where they can even make balanced decisions because they're fried out. Also, we, we, we crap on the UCI a lot on this podcast today. I cannot believe this statement. This statement just came out as we are recording, but this is just an excerpt from it. Where this is, I guess from David La Partienne in some respects, because he's the president.

A (62:43)

My good friend David.

B (62:45)

Yeah. Our good friend in this case, actually on his side. But we regret that the Spanish prime minister and his government have supported actions that could hinder the smooth running of a sporting competition and in some cases express their admiration for the demonstrators. This position is contradictory to the Olympic values of unity, mutual respect and peace. It also calls into question Spain's ability to host major international sporting events. Like that is pretty serious. Like, but, I mean, does the vault of run. I don't. What happens to the vault the next year, Johan? Is it, do they move it to another country? This is a big mess that they've created.

A (63:24)

Yeah, yeah. No, I, I, I, I, I think this is just the beginning. Well, you, you, you need, I think you need to look at it, you know, in other countries, are these kind of protests actually even possible? Is the, the authority force able to act differently? You know, I think there's no fear factor here. The police was there, but they're not allowed to do anything. So it's a lot easier for the protesters to basically make a mess and, and, you know, make sure that nothing that the riders, I mean, the amount of times they jumped on the road and I mean, blocked the riders, touched the riders. I, I read some testimonials from, from riders on other teams, even Kofidis or whatever they, they were called, insulted, spit on, called murderers. I mean, this is crazy. Got out of hand.

B (64:19)

It is out of hand. It is great. It makes no sense. You're like, I don't, as far as, I don't think Bob Jungles is pulling any strings at the international level, but yet he's the one getting stopped on the angrily. I mean, we're one trip away too from that guy. Was going to go into the peloton and take down multiple riders going like 45k an hour. But yeah, the Tour de France, let's keep an eye on that. I'm quite curious to see what they do because that could be a problem if they start it as planned in Barcelona. But we'll keep our pulse on that. I did see the tour route comes out October 23rd, so I'm quite curious to see what that is. We'll be doing a show on it. Anything else, Johan, before we take off?

A (65:02)

No. When is our next show? Is it the Worlds?

B (65:05)

No, you and I will be back on Friday.

A (65:07)

Oh.

B (65:08)

I regret to inform you with our weekly show the Movie, which is one of my favorite shows that we do.

A (65:12)

Good. Yeah, Looking forward.

B (65:14)

Thanks. Thanks, Johan. And we'll speak soon.

A (65:16)

Okay, thanks. Bye.