Who Will Win the Pogačar/Evenepoel/Vingegaard Clash at Euros? | THEMOVE+

Summary

THEMOVE+ Podcast Summary

Episode: Who Will Win the Pogačar/Evenepoel/Vingegaard Clash at Euros?
Date: October 3, 2025
Host: Spencer Martin
Co-host: Johan Bruyneel

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep dive into the late-season cycling calendar, focusing on the upcoming European Road and Time Trial Championships and the fascinating clash between Tadej Pogačar, Remco Evenepoel, and Jonas Vingegaard. The hosts also cover recent race results, standout performances (notably by rising stars like Paul Magnier and Isaac Del Toro), transfer news, and big-picture questions on team relegations, the value of certain championships, and the ever-shifting dynamics in pro cycling.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recent Race Highlights and Analysis

CRO Race & Paul Magnier's Emergence

• Magnier, at just 21, is praised for his sprinting—compared to Tom Boonen, though hosts caution that's a "big ask" ([03:33–04:42]).
  • Johan: "He makes me think a bit about...maybe Tom Boonen, that kind of rider."
• He has already stacked up 13 wins—a massive tally for his age ([08:11]).

Brandon McNulty’s Key Season

• Dominant win in the hardest stage at the Tour of Croatia with a 1:40 margin ([05:00–06:27]).
  • Johan: “Brandon McNulty was the best junior in the world. There was nobody even close to him. And, you know, finally he gets to a point where he has the results that everybody was expecting from him.”

Montreal—A Showcase of UAE Team Unity

• Pogačar and McNulty ride for fun, with Tadej waiting up for his teammate to share the glory—showcasing Pogačar’s leadership ([06:27–08:07]).
  • Johan: "That's one of those things that prove he's the real leader of the team and why everyone is so willing to work for him."
  • Spencer: "Stuff like that goes a long way...with the general public."

Munsterland Giro—The Sprinters’ Classic

• Jasper Philipsen claims victory over Arnaud De Lie, with Milan’s crash affecting the outcome ([09:01–11:46]).
• De Lie’s form resurgence tied to spending time on his family’s farm—a heavy volume (20 hrs/week) that seems restorative ([12:20–13:43]).

Team Points, Relegation, and Wild Cards

• In-depth analysis of team rankings and possible movements between WorldTour and ProTeams, with particular focus on Cofidis’s struggles and potential shakeups for next year’s Tour de France wild cards ([13:31–18:03]).
  • Spencer: “To go from a YouTube team [Tudor/Titama]...pretty impressive.”

2. European Championships — Preview and Critique

Time Trial — Evenepoel’s Total Domination

• Remco puts on a clinic, winning by 43 seconds over Ganna in 28 minutes ([18:46–20:11]).
  • Johan: “He's the best time trialist in the world, bar none. There's no discussion."
• Evenepoel’s position and aerodynamics described as “mind-blowing” and “optimized like no other” ([21:06]).
• Debated possibility of Remco breaking the Hour Record—track experience cited as key challenge ([22:02–24:26]).

Mixed Relay Event — The Problem with Meaningless Races

• Only seven national teams entered; lack of public/participant interest; European Championships’ existence questioned ([25:16–26:58]).
  • Johan: "Why does this thing even exist? Nobody wants to participate."
• Critique of overlapping scheduling with key international events, creating diminished fields ([25:16–28:02]).

Road Race Preview: Pogačar, Evenepoel, Vingegaard Showdown

• Course is described as brutally hard; “has Pogačar written all over it” unless Vingegaard produces a surprise ([31:16–32:07]).
  • Johan: “They do three times a climb of 7km, almost 7%, and then three laps with a 1.6km at 10%. Last time up, 6.5km from the finish. This has again Tadej written all over it.”

Team Strength and Participation

• Many nations not sending full squads; Great Britain not represented ([29:11–29:13]).
• Notable: Skill disparity among some participants; smaller cycling nations field unknown names ([29:13–30:09]).

3. Classic Season Reflections & Upcoming Races

Scheduling Disadvantages for Traditional Classics

• Emilia and other late-season Italian one-days lose prestige and star power due to their placement after Euros and Worlds ([33:06–33:36]).

Del Toro as a Favorite for Emilia

• Rising UAE star Isaac Del Toro is picked to win—"UAE wins anyway, just with another guy" ([33:41–34:33]).

Vingegaard and Lombardia Uncertainty

• Debate over why Vingegaard isn’t doing more one-day classics; question marks over his Lombardia participation ([34:37–35:16]).

4. Transfer Rumors & Team Dynamics

Kian Uiterbroeks Saga

• Young Belgian leaves Visma for Movistar, third team in as many years, after contract break. Discussed as possibly "hard to work with" but undeniably talented ([40:22–42:29]).
  • Johan: "At 22, already on your third team and having broken your contract twice, it's not a good sign. He’s a talent, that’s for sure."
• Tidbit: Victor Campenaerts reveals Kian is dating new women’s world champion, making for insider gossip ([39:22]).

Israel-PremierTech's Future Uncertain

• Pulled from Giro dell’Emilia amid safety concerns; sponsors Factor and PremierTech issue statements over branding and registration in current political climate ([49:15–51:25]).
  • Johan: “Adams has no chance. He has to change the name and he has to change the country of registration.”
• Broader point: Teams with wealthy patrons can disappear if owners lose interest; rider and agent decisions hinge on this uncertainty ([51:23–53:15]).

5. Listener Questions — Notable Discussions

Is Pogačar’s 2025 Season Better Than 2024? ([54:19–56:39])

• Comparing Pogačar’s different possible combinations of wins, the hosts reflect on how “winning Flanders and second at Roubaix in his first ever attempt” may make this year even more impressive.

Is the End of the Season Too Climb-Heavy — Shutting Out the Classics Stars? ([58:29–59:31])

• Wout van Aert and Mathieu van der Poel have little incentive to push late in the year given race terrain.

9+ Grand Tours on One National Team ([60:04–61:18])

• Slovenia’s Worlds roster lined up with 10 Grand Tour victories—a possibly unprecedented scenario for a national squad.

Could ASO Design a Tour to Give Evenepoel a Shot at Yellow? ([63:16–67:11])

• Hosts agree: "In Grand Tours, after a week of racing, Pogačar is almost at the same level as the best time trialists." The maths doesn’t favor Evenepoel, even with longer or more time trials.

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Memorable Quotes

• On Pogačar’s Leadership
  “That was a really nice gesture of Tadej Pogačar…proves he's the real leader and why everybody is so willing to work for him.” — Johan, [07:31]
• On Evenepoel’s Time Trialing
  “He's the best time trialist in the world, bar none.” — Johan, [20:03]
• On Unheralded European Champs
  “Why does this thing even exist?... Fifteen spectators, seven teams. There was nobody there.” — Johan, [25:28]
• On Upcoming Euros Road Race
  “This has again Tadej written all over it, and Jonas probably tries to follow him.” — Johan, [31:58]
• On Pro Cycling’s YouTube Beginnings
  “Pretty impressive launch from a YouTube channel (on Tudor/Titama's rise).” — Spencer, [18:20]
• On the Transfer Market
  “At 22, already on your third team…broken your contract twice…must not be easy to work with him.” — Johan, [42:29]
• On Israel-PremierTech’s Issues
  “Adams has no chance. He has to change the name and he has to change the country of registration. That's the only way…for the team to continue.” — Johan, [51:25]
• On Grand Tour TT Gaps
  “Tour de France, Remco is probably the best climber I've ever seen him, and finishes nine minutes back from Pogačar.” — Spencer, [65:06]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Montreal/UAE Team Tactics: 01:10, 06:27
• CRO Race & Brandon McNulty: 03:33–06:27
• Discussion on Young Winners: 08:11, 09:01
• Munsterland Giro Sprint/De Lie: 09:01–13:43
• Team Relegation Scenarios: 13:31–18:03
• European TT Champs/Remco: 18:46–24:53
• Mixed Relay & European Champs Critique: 25:16–28:02
• Euros Road Race Preview: 31:16–32:07
• Isaac Del Toro / Emilia: 33:41–34:33
• Vingegaard & Classics Schedule: 34:37–35:16
• Kian Uiterbroeks Transfer: 40:22–42:29
• Israel-PremierTech Drama: 49:15–51:25
• Listener Qs on GT Wins, Pogačar’s Season: 54:19–56:39, 60:04–61:18
• Evenepoel at the Tour — Math Doesn’t Work: 63:16–67:11

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Notable & Entertaining Moments

• The hosts openly roast unknown riders filling national squads for Euro Champs.
• Discussion of how spending 20+ hours a week on a farm can revive a pro sprinter’s form (Arnaud De Lie).
• Light-hearted banter about suffering up Côte de la Colmiane on a TT bike and the relativity of professional vs. amateur speed.
• Anecdote of Uiterbroeks’s secret relationship with the women’s world champion, revealed via Victor Campenaerts.

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Overall Tone

The episode is insightful but relaxed, full of sharp analysis, dry humor, and frank assessments of pro cycling’s quirks—both strategic and structural. It’s a lively, detailed insiders’ conversation that brings both expert knowledge and personality to every topic.

Transcript

[Johan Berniele]

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[Spencer Martin]

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[Johan Berniele]

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[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, Pogachar obviously wanted to use that as his test for the. For the worlds. And then when you saw that McNulty was. Who was it with him? There was. I don't remember. Quinn Simmons. Oh, it was Quinn Simmons with him. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniele]

When McNulty got rid of Quinn Simmons, you know, he decided to wait for him and the two of them right to the finish. That was a really nice gesture of tadepogacha. Right. I mean, I think that's one of those things that prove that he's the real leader of the team and why everybody is so willing to work for him.

[Spencer Martin]

Everybody. Welcome back to the move. Plus our weekly technically off season show. We're starting a little bit earlier this year, even though we still have the season running. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniele. We are going to be talking recent racing, some upcoming racing, including Sunday's European Championship road race, which features kind of an odd but exciting showdown between Tate Pagacha, Rimko Avnopol, Jonas Vinaard, a couple recent transfers. And at the end, we'll get to a few listener questions. We are live on a private YouTube stream, so if you're a member, you can watch us live and you can ask questions into the chat and we will answer them at the end of the show. Something we're trialing. We'll probably try to do it more and more, hopefully going on at the Tour friends next year. So welcome to that experimentation. Johan. Not a lot of major racing to talk about, but we've had the crow race going on, which is being dominated, at least in the stage wins by Paul Monier and GCwise Brandon McNulty. I'm at a point where if Paul Manet, like Paul Manette. How many wins does this guy have this year? Like 12 wins?

[Johan Berniele]

It's. No. Yeah, I think. Yeah, but probably 12. I actually went over it yesterday with my. With my son. I don't. Yeah, I think 12. But he's. He won a race. He won a race very early in the season. I think the first race he did in the. And then it. I don't know if he has been sick or injured, but it took him quite a while to win his second race. And then he just, you know, I think it was probably in June and he just kept winning and winning and winning. So, I mean, I have to say he's impressive though. He's 21 years old. He is. He has so much power. And yeah, he makes me think a bit about. I would say maybe, maybe Tom Boonen, that kind of writer. You know, big praise. He's. Well, yeah, I mean, he's strong. I mean, Boonen was also, when he was 20 or 21, he was already very strong. But I think to be like Tom Boonen, it's. That's a big ask, right? I mean, Flanders, Ruby world champion, but.

[Spencer Martin]

Probably one of the. One of, if not the best cobbled rider of all time.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, but. But no, listen, the guy's really, really fast and yeah, I mean, he won three stages here. Did he not win four stages? What race was it of Slovakia?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, he won the first four stages of Slovakia. Only lost one of the stages.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. So no Yeah, I mean, very, very impressive rider. And then. And of course, you know, in these kind of races, like Slovakia and like Croatia, they do have a pretty solid team around him, which ensures basically, whenever it's a stage that's appropriate for a bunch print, it is actually a bunch print and he rarely misses it. But today was different. Today was, I think, the hardest stage of the Tour of Croatia. And Brandon McNulty was head and shoulders above everybody else. That was a hard climb at the end. He does have a strong team there also with Tim Valens doing the lead out on that climb and he attacked and it was game over. Brandon McNulty won the stage with 1 minute 40, I think, on. On the second rider. What a season for Hatton, for McNulty. You know, he won the Tour of Poland, was topped in the Giro, just recently, won the race in. In. In Canada with the blessing of Dale Po Gachar. But you had to be there. So, yeah, I mean, finally he gets to a point where. Let's not forget Brandon McNulty was the best junior in the world when he was junior.

[Spencer Martin]

I think forgot about that.

[Johan Berniele]

He was the best junior in the world. There was nobody even close to him. And, you know, finally he gets to a point where he has the results that everybody was expecting from him.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, you say that last year, 2024, he was ninth overall in wins. Like, he actually won a lot last year. We didn't really notice it. Won this race, won the Crow race. He's defending champion. I have to imagine he wins again. Going to be hard to overcome. A minute and a half deficit with two stages left. I believe one of them a sprint stage. Very good rider still. I was on a group ride yesterday. Boulder cycle sport. Group ride Thursdays. Gotta be out there. There was a lot of heavy hitters, but I was talking with someone on that ride and like, the Montreal win was just for fun. If you think about it like, Pagacha was up there by himself. And then McNulty bridged up to him. Pagatra waited for him and then pulled him to the win. Like. Like those guys are just having fun at this point. It's not like that wasn't even a necessary racing decision.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, Pogacha obviously wanted to use that as his test for the. For the Worlds. And then when you saw that McNulty was. Who was it with him? There was. I don't remember. Was Quinn Simmons with him? Yeah, yeah. When. When McNulty got rid of Quinn Simmons, you know, he decided to, you know, Wait for him and, and the two of them right to the finish. That was a really nice gesture of, of Tadepogacha. Right. I mean, I think that's one of those things that prove that he's the real leader of the team and why everybody is so willing to work for him.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes, I, I think stuff like that goes a long way.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

With the general public. That resonates with people a lot in the moment. I kind of roll my eyes at it. I'm like, all right, whatever. Like he's a gun teammate. I'm just watch. Probably watching too much cycling. But for casual viewers, it's so impressive. You know, it's all people talk about on Palmonier. So I have up the list of winners. Like this is the winner ranking list for this season. Tadipagach our first 17 wins down season forum. If you can believe it, quite a few fewer wins than last year. Tim earlier second 15 wins. Mads Pedersen 14, Isaac Del Toro 13. Fifth place Paul Manier, 13 wins. Wow, that is really impressive for 21 year old. And then you look even further down. Matthew Brennan. What? He's also, he's 20 years old. He has 12 wins, 12 rows.

[Johan Berniele]

Wow. Yeah, he just turned 20. No, he was 19 for a long time this season.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. Well, what was it? It was his Perry Roubaix debut and he was at the front for the first few hours. But moving on from crow race, we had the main event of the day, the Munsterland Tour. This for some reason was, I believe it was televised, start to finish. Oh yeah.

[Johan Berniele]

I woke up when I saw that. I said, wow, why, why do they do this?

[Spencer Martin]

It'. I, I love the region. I, I personally enjoyed seeing it. But I woke up, I turned it on. I thought, why am I watching the beginning of this race?

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, Spencer. Well, imagine somebody who has to commentate that race from start.

[Spencer Martin]

I was thinking about that. I got an offer to comment. I won't say the race to commentate a race. And I was you, it's something you think you can do until you're put in the position to do it. And then you think, what am I going to say? 4 hours on end, but Jasper Phillipson wins over Arno Deli. Really impressive win. I, I was watching it and I thought for sure Dele had it. And then Philipson comes around. It's a kind of reminder. It's silly to say because he's probably the best sprinter in the world, at least in Grand Tours, but he, he can correct course when things aren't going perfectly and to come around a rider like Dele is not easy. So yeah, I was impressed.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. And there was, you know, I mean there was a lot of really good sprinters, you know, so Jordymas was there was Jonathan Milan there?

[Spencer Martin]

I thought he, I thought I saw him on the start line.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, Merlin was there but he crashed. So that's obviously something that would have been different but I mean without the crash of Merlier, still Philipson with his team, the way they control this race, he won last year also Philipson, he. So he was the defending champion coming off the form of the Vuelta and you know, I think it's, you know, he's the, I think he's the fastest sprinter right now. If you, if you look at pure sprinters, maybe a close one with Merlier. But the Lee, I mean, let's talk a little bit about the sprint of the Li and his end of season. You know, he's, he's winning a lot of races. He, he won, he won a race in France. No, a few days ago and then I think he's up to seven, seven or nine wins already now. Also with his whole beginning of the season, you know, basically no results. How many, how many wins does he have?

[Spencer Martin]

So he had three consecutive wins before this race. Yeah, two of them in Belgium, one of them in France. One is stage a renewal tour just this season he has 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 wins, which is very good season. Yeah, I, I should, I know Jonathan Milan on the start line, but little Trek only started seven riders. So maybe he was supposed to start and then dropped out. And also some teams only have six riders. Like Visma started six riders. Some teams have eight riders.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So I'm not quite sure what's going on.

[Johan Berniele]

I think the Lee. It's difficult to say. I mean, have you seen, have you watched, have you looked closely to the sprint? Did you see that? He always has some kind of issue. I don't know what it has to do with his power on the bike. I don't know what it is, but do you see that his back wheel skipped with like 50 meters to go. I think he, he hit a, he went over a bump or went into a little hole in the, in the road and so it was a close one. I don't know if that would have made a difference. But the Lee is obviously he got, he got his form back and I've heard on Dutch commentary that he had to change a lot of things that, you know, he went back to his old fashioned way of doing so you Know, you know, the Lee's family, they're farmers so he lives on a farm and his, his favorite thing to do is being out on the farm with the animals, with the cows, you know, and, and so I mean I don't know if it's true or not, but apparently he, he spends at least 20 hours a week on the farm with the animals.

[Spencer Martin]

That seems like a lot of time.

[Johan Berniele]

I mean if that, if it seems to work, it seems to work. He's, he's having a really, really good second part of the season.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that, that. I will say if you go to European farms, they always seem much more idyllic and nice than, than a North American farm where if you were out there for 20 hours a week you might have wind burn that would never come off your face. But you know, it's interesting about Delee. Same number of wins as Jasper Phillipson. Both have seven wins. I guess it just shows you, you know, because Merlier has more than double the number of wins as Phillipson this year. But it just shows you like Philipson can just rise up for the big moments, you know, like not be having a great season and then just, I'll just rattle off a tour friend stage win with. He could also crash out of the Tour which was his main thing. And then I'll show up to the vault and I'll win a couple stages. It's really impressive the way he can just rise to the occasion. You were saying Merlier might be up there with him. I would say Merlier's second and third week of Grand Tours are not on par with Phillipson. That's probably the difference between them right now. Anything else from this race that stuck out to you other than you got to see a lot of it?

[Johan Berniele]

No, no, no, that's it, that's it. You know, it's, it's. I mean we all knew it was going to be a sprint and I think you know, the favorite one so Philipson Delhi and then Pavel Bittner was third. I think he's on picnic. Picnic post Nl I think. No. Yes.

[Spencer Martin]

Who was in relegation danger at one point and then now has kind of quietly shut the door on any challenge. So. Impressive.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, I mean speaking of that, the relegation is, is Cofidis. Yeah, they're, they're Now I think 200 something points behind. You know, I mean because of the bad situation I think they're in. They just fired their, their current general manager Cedric Vassar and they brought in a new rider, a new GM who was responsible for the look Brand the bicycles and the pedals. I don't know if they can turn it around but it doesn't look really. It doesn't look good for coffee this because if you study a bit more in detail the classification of the team. So if you take the ranking of the last three years which is what decides who's in the world tour and not for the moment they're out and you know, x gets the 18th spot and then if you go to the ranking of this year, I don't think they are in the first three. At least not in the first two.

[Spencer Martin]

Lucky for us. Johan. I spent eight hours on planes going back and forth from a place recently so I had plenty of time to tally this all up and think about every possible scenario. But let's assume Uno X is promoted so that will. Or yeah they'll be promoted. So the teams that would be promoted are Israel, Premier Tech, Unox and Lotto. So then the wild card teams for next year. Not wild cards. The Automatic automatically invited second division teams would be Tudor Q36.5 and KOFIS. So if Kofus is not promoted or they don't hold their spot they would be third but just barely above Total Energies. So they have to like. Even if they get relegated, they have to sprint through the end of the year.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. What's their, what's their advantage on Total energies?

[Spencer Martin]

It's about 300 points. So it's about.

[Johan Berniele]

Because it's most likely going to win the Tour of Langkawi. Yeah, they, they want. I don't know what, how many points there are there. But so, so yeah that's interesting and that.

[Spencer Martin]

But it even gets more interesting. Just wait. So let's say Toadile is not in the top three. That means there's two wild card slots to the Tour de France. Toadle, who is going to lose their sponsorship at the. I don't know if you saw that end of 2006.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

So they will be a wild card team to the Tour next year even if they're not in that top three because the top three second division teams get automatically invited. That leaves. Do you know who then would be the last wild card team to the Tour de France?

[Johan Berniele]

Titama.

[Spencer Martin]

Titama Rockets.

[Johan Berniele]

Wow.

[Spencer Martin]

Unbelievable. Yeah, that, that is mind blowing.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And that explains the Dylan Gronovagan signing. Yeah, all kind of comes into. Comes into like focus when you really think about that. I mean to go from a YouTube team.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Pretty impressive launch from a YouTube channel. That's really impressive. Anything else on the race? Oh, I can't believe we almost glossed over this. The other major race of the week, European time trial championships. Straight off the plane from Kigali, Rimco, Evanopole shows up and just absolutely destroys everyone on what we were thinking was maybe a course that wasn't even that well suited for him. What'd you think of that performance?

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, I mean to beat, I mean he did, he, he did beat people. Ghana. So that's obviously always a challenge on, on a course like this. But you know he's, he's in super shape. Impressive. You know, I mean if you look so. And then the third guy, this Larson, Nick, is it? Nicholas Larson.

[Spencer Martin]

Nicholas Larson on the third division team.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, yeah. Who goes to Titima by. Who will ride for Titima by the way, next year. But yeah, I mean the same, the same thing happened, you know, like even a pool catching Stefan Kung, who is a multiple European champion time trial, that was obviously the image of the, of the time trial European championships. But yeah, if you look at even a pool's Palmares now in the last year, you know, he is the only one who's ever so he's gold medal in the Olympic time trial, gold medal in the World championships time trial, gold medal in the European championship stamp and gold medal in the Belgian ships Belgian championship stamp trial. So yeah, he's the best time trial in the time trialist in the world, bar none. There's no discussion about that anymore now.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean it wasn't even particularly close. He beat Ghana by 43 seconds on a 28 minute course.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Where does. Here's a question for you. So Evan. Nepal. That would mean he has every championship he possibly could have, right in the time trial. There's nothing left. Yeah. So let's just say he's better than Ghana, which I think is fair. Where does Ghana go from here? Like what does he focus on next year? Time trials? Does he double down on the classics? Like where do you see Ghana's career?

[Johan Berniele]

Ghana can still win every single time. Flower, even a pool is not present, you know, in the Giro. And I mean it, it, he can win time trials, but you know, even a pool is just, I mean. And again, Spencer, I saw some pictures, you know, frontal pictures. There is just no. If even a pool has a decent day, I'm not gonna. It doesn't even need to be a super day. If he has a decent day and it's a fast course, there's no way anybody can beat him. He is so arrow.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniele]

That frontal surface is just mind Blowing the way this guy is able to, you know, put himself in that position, you know, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna again, again get people who criticize my, my, how you say, applauding even a pool. But you know, I'm sometimes very critical about Remco also. You know this. But, but yeah, I think we, we.

[Spencer Martin]

Have our fair share of criticism about Remco, but it's just, you know, for.

[Johan Berniele]

If you look, he does have the power, he's an amazing athlete. But if you look the way he's able to optimize his position on a time trial bike, nobody else can do this for like half an hour or one hour. And by the way, I think I, in one of the former podcasts, I think I said that he was thinking about the hour record.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I was just thinking about that.

[Johan Berniele]

Not. Not true. Not true. He's not, it's not on his mind.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, Ghana is what would be. I, I'm also, I agree with you. I think you couldn't create physically a better time trialist because of just how arrow and powerful he is. And he's a good athlete. You know, he almost made that. He was almost like a Belgian senior international player, which is very hard to do in soccer and football, the real sport. But. So he's clearly a good athlete. But what would be the downside of chasing the hour record? Is it just the preparation? Like all the time and money you sink into that.

[Johan Berniele]

It's a lot, you have to put a lot on the side. You know, it's, it's a big project. Plus, let's not forget he go, he, he's going to be on Red Bull now and he has Dan Bingham there, who was the tester for, who actually broke the world record first before people Ghana and then prepared the whole plan for people Ghana when he was still on ineos. I think the big, the big issue with, with Remco and, and the hour record and the disadvantage. He has a huge disadvantage compared to people Ghana. It's, it's on a velodrome and it's different. It's different, different riding. It's you, you have to be able to ride the track because the technique riding on a track is something that is super, super important for the hour record. And I think Ghana is, is a big specialist of the track and Remco has never ridden the track.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, I could, I could see that. Yeah, he's, he didn't grow up on it late comer to the sport. I mean, I was even riding with like A world class former, I guess world class track rider yesterday. And just the way they can kind of generate power from seated positions and time things, it's. I guess it's just a skill you build up over a long period of.

[Johan Berniele]

Time that it's a different pedaling style, Spencer. It's a different battling style. And even if it's, you know, individual in time trial position and low on the track, you still have the technique of the corners and you know, coming out of the corner faster and it's, it's different and so it would take a lot and the bar is extremely high. I mean is it, is it 57 already or 56 points? I don't know.

[Spencer Martin]

What the hour record is it also I didn't thought of this. Bradley Wiggins pointed it out. The track is not flat. So you're, it's not like you're just riding around as fast as you can.

[Johan Berniele]

Like you're using, there's, there's, you use the, the, the little, you know, there's a little dip after the corner. How much is it?

[Spencer Martin]

Can it get it. It says. I don't know if this is true. This is what chat GPT says 56.8km.

[Johan Berniele]

That's correct.

[Spencer Martin]

That's just pretty fast. I mean for our American listeners, that is going to be like 35 miles an hour for an hour. Just try to go hold that. No drafting or anything. Really impressive. But. So this weekend we have two, two big races. One, I kind of feel bad for Giro del Amelia. This is tomorrow, Spencer, to come back.

[Johan Berniele]

On the European Championships. I just want to, I mean, I have to get this off my chest, you know, European Championships. And I think that the, the.

[Spencer Martin]

The.

[Johan Berniele]

The, the race that illustrates us the most is, you know, the, the mixed relay. Why does this thing even exist? You know, it's like mixed relay. So we saw it already on the World Championships. Personally, I think, I think the discipline is, is, it's, it's, it's not. I mean it means nothing. I mean nobody wants to participate. You know, the big writers don't want to participate. The European Championships mixed relay. There were seven teams at the start, Spencer. Seven teams. So you, you know, France, Italy, Switzerland, Germany and then Luxembourg, Ukraine and Estonia. I mean, where is everybody? I mean, if, you know, and then if you look at that, that, I mean, and then what do we have, 15 spectators? There was nobody there.

[Spencer Martin]

This takes me to a bigger question also. We're like in the meat of the cycling season. Like points are being, the points battle is like at full Tilt. We have races, like coming thick and fast and you expect people to target this. It makes no sense. On a larger question, how does this make any financial sense? The European Championships, does it make money from the region, paying it? Like, why do they even run this thing?

[Johan Berniele]

Well, I mean, first of all, I think it's, it's also one of the, you know, it's a justification to exist. You know, you have, you have all the national. I mean, you have all the national federations. Right. Why does there even have to be a European federation?

[Spencer Martin]

That's a very good point.

[Johan Berniele]

You know, it's a, It's a justification to exist. You know, that's what they. But the UCI rules over the national federation, so why. What does the European Federation do? Nothing. It means nothing. Plus, I think in this case here, you know, to have the European Championships one week, in this case here, the, the, the, the time trial three days after the World Championships makes even less sense. Makes no sense. I mean, it's impressive also, what. Even a pool. Did you know, he did the World Championships time trial. He did the road race. And on Sunday and on Wednesday, he's already racing in France and wins the time trial. But that's hard, man, on the, on these guys. You know, you need to be in top shape. You cannot get sick. It. It's asking a lot of your body. I think this year the European Championships and the European Federation, they're very fortunate that Pogacha participates.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniele]

And, and that Jonas Wingergaard participates. That's. That's the first. I think it's his second one day race. No. Or something. Or his.

[Spencer Martin]

When is the last.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, he won one day race. And so that may be the reason why he participated. Because it's in that area.

[Spencer Martin]

It's.

[Johan Berniele]

It's there.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, because he lives right there. Yeah, you're right. I didn't think about that. No.

[Johan Berniele]

But the race he won.

[Spencer Martin]

Oh, the race. He also probably was over there.

[Johan Berniele]

Was over there.

[Spencer Martin]

I think he can also just drive there from his house too.

[Johan Berniele]

Probably. Probably. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Wait, hold on a second. What race? What one? Did he win the drum class again or something?

[Johan Berniele]

So that's. Yeah. So it's over those climbs and so. Yeah, I mean, the race, the race on, on Sunday, it's. It's a hard race. The field, I would say, is not that great. I looked quickly. I saw, for example, Great Britain is not even sending a team.

[Spencer Martin]

I couldn't find them. I was confused about that.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. If you look at the start list. But the thing is, also, Spencer, that this One of those races. Okay. Slovenia sends a full team. They have Pogachar, they have Mohoric, they have. But there's guys on here. There's guys on almost every single country that I have never heard of. Thailand Finkst from Slovenia. Never heard of him. Anzishkok. Never heard of him.

[Spencer Martin]

These poor guys are just getting roasted on the move. Plus sorry, but do start lists matter anymore? I guess would be a unnecessarily hot.

[Johan Berniele]

Take question because Switzerland sends Niels Brun. Never heard of that guy. Valentin. Valentin Darbale, Arnaud Tondo.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, never look at the German team.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Have you heard?

[Johan Berniele]

So.

[Spencer Martin]

Kind of actually an interesting guy on the German team, Antonio schiffer. So he's 26 years old. He's on a team called Bike Aid. It's a club level team. This guy was in the Zwift Academy. He went to the Alpecin team camp, goes to Vismano Alpin passed on him because they didn't like his personality. Super interesting little documentary about it. And now and then he goes back and he's racing at like basically the local or local pro level. And then now he's going to Visma next year, which Visma does have a very good track record of picking up. Think of B. Bart Lemon just picking up older guys who fit into the system really well. Johan, if everyone's just getting nuked from 100k out, does it matter who's in the race?

[Johan Berniele]

I mean, it's going to be the same with, with, with. If you have, if you have today and you have Jonas and you have Remco, you have Almeida. Almeida. Show are you. So Paul Sayas. I mean those six riders are top of the world, right?

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. So it's going to be a good.

[Johan Berniele]

Race, but it's hard, man. I mean, I checked the course. It's, you know, it's. It's not. It's 202 kilometers or shorter, but it's 3400 meters of elevation of which the majority is in the last 140 kilometers. And they do three times a climb of 7 kilometers, I think almost 7%. And then they do three, three laps with a climb of a shorter climb, 1.6 kilometers, but 10%. And the last time they go up that climb is six and a half kilometers from the finish. So this has again today written all over it. And Jonas is probably going to try to follow him. I don't know if that's.

[Spencer Martin]

Tade has ruined race previews because we could have just played white Noise there. You know, it doesn't matter what the course is. I could just tell you that he's probably going to win.

[Johan Berniele]

Well, yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah, it depends what he has done. Right. Between the Sunday and Sunday trip back home. I mean, he doesn't have to do much, but yeah, it's a one. So you depend a lot on the form of the day. Right.

[Spencer Martin]

And I mean, he's got still his business to do. He's got a monument next week that he. That he kind of has to win if he want.

[Johan Berniele]

He.

[Spencer Martin]

He's third of all. He's third overall in monument wins and he needs to start closing down on Mercs and diplomac fast. So he's got work to do the thing. But the thing at the. The sad thing is this is a zero sum game. So all those names we said are names that would usually be at 0del Amelia. Like the last past winners of that race were Pagachar, Roglich, Inrik, Mass Roglich, Vlasov Roglich and those. I believe all those guys were targeting Lombardia in those years because it's the week before Il Lombardia. It is in.

[Johan Berniele]

It's.

[Spencer Martin]

It's what. What town is this? I'm blanking on the town. It's like a fantastic finish. The Tour de France had the climb there. That's where Picachar attacked Jonas and Jonas followed him and everyone freaked out. What is this climb called? It is the San Luca climb in Bologna.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But the sad thing is this race is losing out on all these riders because now the European Championships decided to park itself the day after. So now we're getting a diminished version of what.

[Johan Berniele]

I mean, we are. I mean, it's EAS Del Toro is going to win.

[Spencer Martin]

How do you feel if you're not UAE in the modern peloton too? It's like, well, the best rider's not there, but they're still going to win the race with this other guy who's amazing.

[Johan Berniele]

So Isaac Del Toro. Could be. Could. That's tomorrow. No, Emilia. So it could be. What is it number? The win? Number 14 of the season.

[Spencer Martin]

For Del Toro? Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think he has that many.

[Johan Berniele]

It'll be close. I think it's.

[Spencer Martin]

It's.

[Johan Berniele]

I think he has to be right.

[Spencer Martin]

13 wins. Well, you're right. So that would be his 14th win, I guess. Yeah. I didn't. I'm like, well, I don't see him at 14 because he hasn't won it yet. He probably will win it. I think you're right. What we saw last week was really impressive. So are your picks Del Toro tomorrow, Pagatra on Sunday?

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Spencer Martin]

I. I am. I do find it curious that Jonas is doing Sunday. It's exciting. I wish he would do more one days in general.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. And then the question is, you know, will you. Will Jonas do more races? Will he do Lombardy, for example?

[Spencer Martin]

Is he not currently on the start? He definitely should do it.

[Johan Berniele]

See, that's something I don't understand, you know, I mean, like, does he does the European Championships? Obviously he thinks he has a chance to win because of the course he does have a chance to win. But. But then at least, you know, do a few more races to finish the season.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. The. A monument. It's what is probably the second he plays two monuments that he could win realistically, it would be Liege.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

You got to start him. You got to start him, Jonas. What are we doing? But like, I mean, who's to say Picacho doesn't. What if he falls? He wanted maybe stubs his toe in the hotel room the night before. Yeah. You don't know what's going to happen. You got to show up.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

He probably would still win even if he broke his toe the night before. I think it would matter. Maybe we should. Let's take a quick break actually, Johan, and then we'll get back to some recent transfers. If you don't have anything else to say about these races.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

We'll be right back, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Quince. As the weather cools, I'm swapping in pieces to my wardrobe that actually get the job done. Warm, durable, and built to last. And Quince delivers every time with wardrobe staples that carry me through the season. Quince has all the types of staples that you'd actually want to wear on repeat. Like 100 Mongolian cashmere from just $60. Classic fit denim and wool outerwear that looks sharp and holds up. I've personally got my eye on their Italian wool peacoat. It's perfect for those cold, bolder mornings. And I want to elevate my fit for those school drop offs. And by partnering directly with ethical factories and top artisans, Quince cuts out the middlemen to deliver premium quality at half the cost of similar brands. I've personally been shopping on Quince. I can vouch for it. It is great products at a great price. I got myself some worn stretch jeans, and they've been amazing. I'm wearing them on my commute in the morning to drop my kids off at school. They look fantastic, they are comfortable on the bike and I cannot recommend them enough. So if you're looking to refresh your wardrobe with timeless staples, check out quint.com themove you get free shipping on your order in 365 day returns. It's also available in Canada now too. That's quince Q-U-I-N c e.com the move remember, free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com themove hey everybody. This episode is brought to you by Gusto. When I first started my beyond the Peloton newsletter, all I wanted to do was break down professional cycling in depth for people that wanted to understand the sport better. I didn't want to calculate tax withholdings and all the other things you have to do when you're running a small business. Well, I quickly realized I was far out of my depth and probably violating multiple IRS rules. So I got Gusto so I could get back to focusing on the nitty gritty of pro cycling and let the business be taken care of by Gusto. And what is Gusto, you might ask? Well, besides being my guardian angel, it's an online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one remote, friendly, and incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. It offers automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, commuter benefits, workers comp 401k, you name it. Gusto makes it simple and has options for nearly every budget. It's quick and simple to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast and you don't pay a cent until you run your first payroll. So try Gusto [e-mail] the move and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free [e-mail] the Move that's G U S T O.com themove try it out right now. So there's been a few transfers and transfer rumors. One is Mikhail Kievkoski going to Q 36.5, but we read Daniel Benson thinks he's going back to ineos. So I thought he was going back to ineos. I thought I heard that earlier this year. I'd be surprised frankly, if he leaves. He's got a pretty good situation at ineos. I don't really know why he would leave except for money and I don't know who INEOS would pay if not for him because he's one of their best writers even at this advanced, not advanced age, veteran age. Another writer, Kyne Utterbrooks, if this sounds familiar, he was like the darling.

[Johan Berniele]

By the way, Victor Campenaerts revealed not knowing, but he did an interview after the world championships of women that Kian Huertebroek's girlfriend is actually the new world champion women, the Canadian Magdalene.

[Spencer Martin]

Really?

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, yeah. So I saw an interview in on Belgian TV and company Arts. They asked him a question. He said, yeah, you know, based on, based on what you saw from the women's race, what do you think? You know, what happened in the road race for the men and surprise winner and company. I said, yeah, well, not a big surprise for us because you know, she came training with us because she's the girlfriend of Kianoita Brooks and, and she was super strong and you know, so that's how it became public that they're a couple.

[Spencer Martin]

Interesting. Well, maybe that explains the team change. I don't, I don't know how to explain this because I was, I was.

[Johan Berniele]

Really surprised to read that out of the. I don't know if we very well kept secret, Spencer, you know, no rumors, there was nothing about it. And yeah, the. Brooks signed for four years with Movistar.

[Spencer Martin]

In the middle of his contract while.

[Johan Berniele]

He still had a contract for next year. So yeah, it's clear that. And I saw a quote from Richard Plugger saying that, you know, they have different objectives and that obviously. So Visma agreed to break open his contract and let him go. I don't know if that's. If there's a fee attached to it or not. I would guess a small fee. But, but obviously. Listen, Keanuita Brooks is a big talent. He's been dominating the categories he was racing in the youth, won the Tour de l', Avenue, came to Red Bull. I think he finished 10th on top 10 in his first Vuelta and then left unexpectedly also on a contract still with Red Bull to Visma. They had a battle about that. So Visma obviously paid to get hurt. Brooks out of his contract with Red Bull and now after two years doesn't finish his three year contract with, with Visma and moves to another team. I didn't really know what I have to think about it, Spencer, you know, at 22, already on your third team.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniele]

And having broken your contract twice, it's not a good sign. It's, I mean, you know, he's a talent, that's for sure. Something tells me, and I have absolutely, I Don't know the guy personally. I just go off what I read and. And what I see is that it's must not be easy to work with him.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, essentially, that's what Red Bull said. It was, I believe, departing team manager Rolf Aldeg, after he left, he was. I don't want to put words in the man's mouth, but he kind of expressed like, it's gonna be nice not to work with him again. I believe he said something like that on the record. But he. So he gets eighth at the 2023 Volta already. It was kind of weird because he. If you remember, he was mad at Vlasov for getting seventh. And if you're a team manager, they were on the same team, both on Bora. And I had two riders fighting over seventh and eighth. I would be livid. I was like, what the hell are we talking about? Like, both of you guys, I don't care. I don't care. Get on the podium, win. Or like, let's not fight about seventh and eighth. So right then I thought it was. And it's like, why would Vlasovan work for you to finish a spot ahead of him when he's trying to get his own contract on the team? But he leaves and goes. He is a terrible 2024. And I thought the whole conversation around him in 2023 was a bit odd. He was like being covered as though he was the next great, like, Belgian Tour France.

[Johan Berniele]

But the thing is, let's. You know, in his defense, he did have that. An issue with one of his legs, with one of the arteries. I don't know if he had surgery or not, but.

[Spencer Martin]

But obviously I don't remember either.

[Johan Berniele]

He had. He had that typical issue with, you know, numbness in one of the legs. And I do remember that he was out for the majority of the season in 2024. And then he came back in Tyrano, did one or two good stages, and then he had it again. I still see the images when he crossed the finish line and he was. He was devastated, you know, saying, okay, this, you know, obviously super disappointed. He had the same issue then he was out of competition for a very long time. And I think he came back end of July, beginning of August, and then won the Tour de La. Very impressive. Then there was another stage race, second.

[Spencer Martin]

I mean, he's been very good since coming back second at Czech Tour.

[Johan Berniele]

Czech Tour, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And then fifth Tour of Slovakia. I hand up. Did not watch the Tour of Slovakia. I can't speak to his performance there, but Then World Championships, at a certain point, he was the only Belgian rider in the front chase group.

[Johan Berniele]

No, there was that. The moment. The moment Pogacha goes on the. The Mount Kigali. It was Pogacha Ayuso. I don't know who else was there. There was another guy. And then. And then. Than Kian. Because when. When Remco.

[Spencer Martin]

I think Paul Seychelles was the other guy.

[Johan Berniele]

Was it both?

[Spencer Martin]

I think so.

[Johan Berniele]

It could be. I don't remember.

[Spencer Martin]

Wait, wait. No, no. Who was it? Oh, boy. Oh, it's gonna drive me nuts.

[Johan Berniele]

I think it was Jan. Kristen.

[Spencer Martin]

Yes, that's who it was.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. And so looked good. And. And, you know, then he stayed up there for a bit, and then he kind of helped Remco a bit also to come back. So. So he's. He's at a good level. Obviously. This was in the making already for a while, this transfer. Right. Because it's not something that he. They have decided now after the World Championships. Anyway, we'll see. We'll see. You know, maybe that's what he needs for his career. I don't know. Movie star can definitely use a really good rider for gc. And so. Yeah, I don't know if that's the right choice, but we will see. We'll see.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, it's. It's. I mean, Movistar needed to sign somebody.

[Johan Berniele]

He better learn Spanish. I have to. He better learn Spanish. But I think. I think he actually, if I'm not mistaken, he lives in. I think he lives in Girona. So it looks the worst place to learn. Sure. Was that.

[Spencer Martin]

It's a terrible place to learn Spanish. You're in Catalonia. Everyone speaks English.

[Johan Berniele]

To me, Iter Brooks looks that kind of. I mean, he's. I think he. He's pretty good at. He's a smart guy. I think he's gonna learn Spanish or he speaks Spanish already.

[Spencer Martin]

I would say even the bigger. The bigger, I think culture shock would be going from a team that made their own software program to help you eat to, I assume, just like, unsup, no supervision. Well, at Movistar.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Get on your local group ride, show up. Ready to race. Nah.

[Johan Berniele]

But I think a guy like Oyterbrucks, I think he has everything under control himself. He's that kind of smart and meticulous and obsessed guy.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. And you could honestly see that maybe not working that well at Visma, because if they're telling him what to do, he thinks he knows what to do. Maybe that didn't work that well.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, probably.

[Spencer Martin]

I was Just gonna mention. Oh, we, I think we should, we. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something. We're not gonna give any commentary on it. I think it's weird if we don't say it. So Israel Premier Tech is not going to be racing tomorrow because they were disinvited to Giro del Amelia. They also, after being disinvited to that race, uninvited, they're pulling out of three other, you know, it's these three almost consecutive. My camera's going crazy. Three consecutive Italian one day races leading up to Lombardia next week. I assume they'll be at Lombardia. I don't really know why the situation would be better there versus this because they were pulled out of Giro del Amelia. I, I kind of don't hate the logic. The organizers are saying it's not safe to have them there. Probably the Volta could have made the same decision, but I don't know why the situation would be better next week. I assume they can't pull them out because it's a World Tour race. Is that right?

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, normally Lombardi is not in a position to, to do the same thing. Even if they, as far as I understand, Emilia made the decision because they, they're under pressure from the region. Who's afraid of, of protests. Lombardy is not, is not, not able to do that because Israel Premier Tech have an automatic invitation and actually obligation to participate.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, you're right.

[Johan Berniele]

Well actually no, they don't have. No, because they're not, because they are an automatic invite. But if you're a World Tour team, you cannot say I'm not going. Israel could potentially say they're not going, but the organizer is not in a position to say you can't come.

[Spencer Martin]

Remember this during COVID like some teams had, all their riders had Covid so they left a race and then RCS tried to sue them for leaving the race.

[Johan Berniele]

You get a fine from the UCI for not finding a team.

[Spencer Martin]

And then on top of that, if that wasn't bad enough, Factor and factor came out with a pretty, I would say damning statement. Basically saying this is just bad business. We can't continue to be involved with you if you don't change your name. Premier Tech said the same thing. I'd assume they also want them to change their country of registration. I still don't see Sylvan Adams backing down. And I frankly, if they change the name to Sylvan Adams Cycling Academy, I don't know if that would help that much either. So I like what, what happens. Johan Like Binyam Girmais signed there for next year.

[Johan Berniele]

I don't think. I don't. I don't think it's signed. I. I don't think it's. I don't know. I don't know, man. If I would be Binyam Girmai or his agent, I would. There's other places where Binyam Girmai can sign. I would say future is more secure because Israel Premier Tech, they'll probably make the best financial offer, given the climate we're living in right now. I think that team is not secure. You know, you don't know if the team can participate in certain races and the continuation and the future of the team is not assured, in my opinion.

[Spencer Martin]

I agree. The factor thing kind of rattled me because that once you have your sponsors saying, we don't want to be involved.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Then you. You start to run out of options.

[Johan Berniele]

No, no. Adams has no chance. He has to change the name and he has to. He has to change the country of registration. That's the only those. He will have to, you know, make good on those two things for the team to continue. Because even if, let's say, a factor. If factor decides. Okay, you know what? This is too risky for us. It's damaged in a brand we're not sponsoring anymore. There's no other bike brand who's gonna sponsor the team.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, no one's picking that up.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And in fact, even if you tried to race with other bikes, people might ask you not to do it and, like, send you a cease and desist.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Like, even if you bought your own bikes.

[Johan Berniele]

Well, I. That. I think that's a bit far. Far stretched.

[Spencer Martin]

But.

[Johan Berniele]

But still, I mean, listen. I mean, ultimately, I think Adams is in a. In a. In a position that he could say, you know what? We don't want any sponsors. I'm just gonna pay everything myself. That's a possibility. But still, he will still face the same problems they had. And it's unfortunate because, you know, the team has nothing to do with. With the situation of Israel and Palestine. But. But still, it's not. I know riders who were there and have left, and it's, you know, they're. They're pretty happy that their future is secure, you know, by the way, speaking of. Speaking of, have we already. Do we already know where Derek G. Is gonna write finally next year? It's not been confirmed, right?

[Spencer Martin]

No. And that's like our brains got erased from our brains. Right. That was the big. That was like the big controversy for the first few days. Of the Volta. And I don't think I've heard a single thing about it of you.

[Johan Berniele]

But it's going to be. It's going to be. It has to be ineos. I mean, there's no way Derek G made. And his agent made that decision not. Not knowing where he was going to be.

[Spencer Martin]

It has to be any.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, yeah. So it's. It's going to be ineos.

[Spencer Martin]

We don't have to get into this right now. Maybe this is an off season talk topic. I was going through INEOS financial statements. That's another team that might not be secure. I guess that's why that's what Toad is for, to come on and take.

[Johan Berniele]

Some of the financial burn or they. They're secure. The.

[Spencer Martin]

The company is losing a lot of money. Like a lot of money.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, but.

[Spencer Martin]

And you know, rich people, that's the thing about Adams. It's like, yeah, technically he could afford it. But you know, you know, moneyed people yell no.

[Johan Berniele]

Once they. Once they get tired of it, that's. It's a little toy. Once they get tired of it, they throw the toy away and they buy another toy. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And it gets old real fast. Anything else before we go into story time? Question time?

[Johan Berniele]

I think we've covered most of what we had to talk about. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Okay. Well, David Brown in the chat. Thank you, David, for joining us and asking this. I think this is a pretty good question. Said last year you said Taday's year was arguably the best ever. Assuming he wins Lombardia is the Tour + World Championships + 11123 in Monuments with less overall wins, better the same or not as impressive of season. I mean, finishing below third in a monument is pretty impressive in itself.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. I mean, Tour de France World Championships. So monuments would be what? So he won Liege. What else did he want?

[Spencer Martin]

Well, are we penciling them in? Let's pencil them in for Lombardia. Just for the. Yeah, for this exercise.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. Because here it says one one, one. So which other monument has he won?

[Spencer Martin]

This is embarrassing. It's because he wins so much we forgot he won Flanders. Johan.

[Johan Berniele]

Oh, damn. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

And then, yeah, he got third at San Remo and second. Second at Per Roubaix. Yeah, that alone. I don't know how many seasons there's been like that with those finishes in the final.

[Johan Berniele]

Well, you know, you'd need another Grand Tour, right? You know, like you need the Giro zero Tour World Championships.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah. So last year already.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah. And then, I mean, listen, it's. It's up There with the best ever. You know, it's up there with a mark. Season or no, listen, it's, it's. It's amazing. I, I can't say it's the best ever. I don't have the stats, but I think, I think it's pretty close.

[Spencer Martin]

Well, and he didn't do Flanders last year, so I, My personal opinion is, I don't think as a society we've digested how impressive Pagachar winning Flanders and getting second at Roubaix in his first ever attempt behind Matthew Vanderpoel is. Yeah, I would almost say this season might be more impressive. Especially, you know, like, you know, we all know the feeling. You show up to the Tour, everything's firing, you're winning, it's great. But the show up and everything was not firing on the same levels this year. Like, they lose Almeida right away, the course was a little goofy. It was tough course and it was really unpredictable. And then to kind of settle into what he settled into in the last week and still win that dominantly and then come back and win world championships again, that's really impressive.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, listen, it's amazing. It's an amazing rider. He just, you know. Yeah. And I think, I mean, then we, if we forget about. If he's also European champion, for example, you know, add that to the list. Oh, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

The way we talk about that title is we, we never are not talking about the European Championship jersey. I think we went through the winners. I don't even think I could tell you who has it right now. Is it Tim earlier?

[Johan Berniele]

It's Tim earlier. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. I mean, it's. It's a young race. It's. The first time was in 2016, so there's no history there. But. No, I think it's this year, obviously. Listen, the guy who wins this year is going to be an amazing, strong rider. Yeah. You know, not. I'm not saying that. I mean, because there are championships that are won by sprinters. You know, we have. But in this case, we had Merlier, we had Jacobsen, we had Divyani, we had Nizolo. Those were all sprints. Right. And then we had Laporte. We had Sagan, who was the first winner. We had Matteo Trentin and we had Sonny Corbrelli. I think those are all the winners of all the. Of all the European championships, if I'm not mistaken. And Alexander Kristoff. So. So it's been very sprinter heavy.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah.

[Johan Berniele]

And it's fine. You know, I mean, a sprinter is is also entitled to. To. To win the championships. But usually you want the champion of a whole year to be like a GC rider. Right. Or, you know, like a guy who dominates cycling. Sprinters dominate sprints. And so it's not been often that the world champion, for example, has been a pure sprinter, except whenever it was a course. But, you know, usually, I mean, we had Sagan winning in a sprint, we had Cavendish winning in a sprint. We had Cipollini. You know, not that many sprinters win the world championships, right?

[Spencer Martin]

No, like the Cavendish Copenhagen year. I mean, here's a question for me. I'm slipping one in. That is the end of the season too. Climb heavy because we've think how good Vanderpoel and Vanart are. They've essentially bagged it. Like Vanderpool's at the Ryder Cup. He's out in LA doing hipster group rides because there's nothing left for him for the rest of the year.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

It feels like the schedule has gotten too. It's shifted to too difficult.

[Johan Berniele]

And also, Spencer, I mean, in. In the case of Vanart and Vanderpool, you know, let's not forget they were prime in. In. In March and April. That's their focus. Then they. Yeah, okay, with Pugach. And then they did the Tour. Vanar did Giro in Tour, by the way. And so it's difficult to be still on. On. On your highest level at the end of the season, especially when the courses are. Are not ideal for you.

[Spencer Martin]

And I guess they are both going to race cross, right?

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, but it's going to be less and less, I guess.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they'll be. This is now their free time almost. And then, yeah, they'll have to ramp back up in the off season. Here's another question from Rafa. These are good questions, people just throwing in good questions. So one thing no one seemed to call out about this previous World Championships was the fact that the Slovenian team lined up with nine Grand Tour wins, among them with Roglic and Bogachar. Has that ever happened before in the history of cycling?

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, that's. I don't have those stats, but that's. Yeah. I mean, so today has won five and Primos has won four, right? Yeah. Did Primos win four or. Or five?

[Spencer Martin]

Four vlotas.

[Johan Berniele]

How many. So did he win four times the Vuelta or three times the Vuelta? Primos.

[Spencer Martin]

Wait, hold on a second.

[Johan Berniele]

I think it's 10 in total.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, because he has four Vueltas and.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, five and five. Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Wait. Yeah. Taday. Is five. So that's 10.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Holy smokes. I mean, and this person even expands it out to trade teams, but can you even. Astana, they had Lance and three Contador.

[Johan Berniele]

Oh, three. Yeah. With the G. Yeah. And the Giro and the Vuelta. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

At the end of 2009. Nine. It would have been 10.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But man, on a national team, I don't think that's ever happened. Right.

[Johan Berniele]

I mean, it's not difficult. Difficult to imagine. I don't think so.

[Spencer Martin]

It's funny, we did totally gloss over that. I didn't even think about it until I got this question.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, no, it's. That's. Yeah, that's impressive.

[Spencer Martin]

And that is impressive.

[Johan Berniele]

And for a country like Slovenia with 2 million. 2 million people in it.

[Spencer Martin]

And, you know, and you know what's crazy about Slovenia is like, the NBA season's getting ready to start here. The odds on MVP for the NBA is from Slovenia. Like, it's not like they're just pumping.

[Johan Berniele]

By the way, great boost for the European Cycling Federation and European Championships. European Championships next year. Slovenia. In Slovenia.

[Spencer Martin]

But get this. World is in Canada. So they've. I guess it's the same as flying back from Kigali, kind of. But you got flies back about.

[Johan Berniele]

They have to do something about the dates. That's just.

[Spencer Martin]

I know.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

Because presumably for Gotcha is going to go for the Worlds next year on a course that suits him, and then.

[Johan Berniele]

He'S going to fly back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

We should go to that. That'd be kind of fun. Slovenia, European Championships. Okay, last question.

[Johan Berniele]

Maybe I may be in Slovenia for another event, you know, where, you know, I'm collaborating with a new event. It's called Everesting, which is basically, you know, doing the amount of vertical meters on a bike equivalent to the Everest, which is what is 8,800. And so we're looking at maybe. Maybe an event in Slovenia. We had. We just had the World Championships Everesting in Sicily on the Mount Aetna two weeks ago, so. Won by a good friend, Jack Burke, by the way.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Johan Berniele]

He. Yeah, he won. He's world champion Everesting now. And so the purpose is to expand that over a few new events. And so Slovenia is on the list of one of the potential places to. To do the Everest thing on, actually one of the climbs, which is one of his favorite training clamps when he was young.

[Spencer Martin]

What's the climb?

[Johan Berniele]

I don't know the name. I have it written down, but I don't. I don't Know the name?

[Spencer Martin]

I did there. There's a big, not a, it's, it's pretty big mountain pass. That's like half, it's like cobbled in the corners. It's very cool. But I wonder if that's the one. But yeah, shout out. Jack Burke did it in like seven and a half hours and I would say Aetna not even the best time because you know there's like a lot of science that goes into fast ever stream time and Aetna, I would not pick that if I was trying to go for the world record. That's a very fast time on that climb. So this is from Pat and Bend, Oregon. Looking at Remco's dominance in the world championships and Euros in the time trials, do you think it's possible ASO could design a route that allow that aligns with enough recent tours but has enough time trial distance that Remco could take yellow to Paris or is time trialing in weeks two and three of the two are too much of a different animal. We can't expect him to take two minutes on Pugachar. I think I got bad news for Pat. I think he might need 25 minutes on Pugachar.

[Johan Berniele]

So maybe not 25 minutes. But you know, I agree it's, it's a big difference. Time trials in as a one off event and then in ground tours. Remco is going to take time on Bogachar in time trials but not much, not, not enough. So yeah, I don't see, I mean I, I don't think I, I don't see ASO changing their route in favor of a time trialist. You never know. But I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's going to be enough.

[Spencer Martin]

So 2024, Remco is probably the best climber I've ever seen him in his career at the Tour. Do you know how far back he finished from Tadipogacha in that race?

[Johan Berniele]

Close to 10 minutes.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, 9 minutes 18 seconds.

[Johan Berniele]

So by the way, I was speaking of the Tour and that time trial man, I mean I was just last week in, yeah. In, in Provence, in, on the French Riviera and Monaco and Nice and so one of those little, little rides we went up, I went up the side of Coldes like the steep side. Right. I could not believe how steep that was.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, so steep.

[Johan Berniele]

And, and you know to go up there with your time trial bike, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy actually. Spencer I mean, and you know, you know, you've done this a few times. You know, if you see these guys flying up there and then you go there with your bike and you struggle to make it to the top on your smallest gear and said, how fast are these guys going? It's crazy.

[Spencer Martin]

It is crazy.

[Johan Berniele]

How slow are we going?

[Spencer Martin]

No, that can't be. That can't be it.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

I say this.

[Johan Berniele]

It's both. It's both.

[Spencer Martin]

It really helps actually fan, you know, because you can say things, you can think things. But I had the opposite experience where I rode it before them and I wrote it and then I did the descent, which I don't find to be an easy descent into nice. And I thought there's no way they can do this on time trail bikes.

[Johan Berniele]

No way.

[Spencer Martin]

And then I'm there for the event and they're doing on like ripping up that on time trial bikes. It's mind blowing. It's good to remember how good they are.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

But the stage seven time trial of 2024, I was at this race actually. It was, it had some climbing, but it was pretty fast, pretty flat. 53k an hour, about 25k long. Evan A. Pol gets 12 seconds on Pagachar. So let's say that's a hundred kilometer time trial and he gets the same amount of time what he was he getting like 48 seconds or something on Product Jar like here. Just make sure that even if he gets two minutes.

[Johan Berniele]

Spencer. So this level of, of Pogacha now and the level of Remco last year, which I agree he was probably the best, it's not going to be enough.

[Spencer Martin]

So they would need roughly like what, like 10, 100 kilometer long time trials. The math, it starts to get a.

[Johan Berniele]

Little, it's not as exponential as that. But listen, I mean in the Grand Tours, you know, after a week of racing, Bogacha is just almost at the same level as the best time trialists. Doesn't matter is top three.

[Spencer Martin]

Yeah, yeah. And that's what we talked about the last few weeks is standalone time trialing is so different. Gotcha. Remco and a Grand Tour aren't that different of time trialist. So no matter what the route is, it could be difficult for it to match up. We have been going for a minute. Do you have any. That's the end of the questions. Do you have anything else before we take off? Johan?

[Johan Berniele]

I think that's it. Spencer. I think we've covered most of it.

[Spencer Martin]

Nice of Jay Clark says five in the comments about I assume Primo's Roglic's Grand Tour wins. Yes.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

That Prima is pretty good writer. We kind of forgot about him, but I assume he'll be at Lombardia.

[Johan Berniele]

He'll be at Emilia.

[Spencer Martin]

He will. He could. Yeah. Actually, no. Now I'm excited to watch it with Del Toro and Roglich. We'll see what happens. But will be. Thank you everyone for joining live. We'll try to be doing this every week during the off season. And we'll be back next Friday, not with a movie move plus, but with an outcomes for Lombardia. And then we'll have a breakdown after that race on the move.

[Johan Berniele]

Sorry, Primus. Roglic is not at Emilia. Just checked.

[Spencer Martin]

What? Yeah, Primus. Is he doing anything else?

[Johan Berniele]

I don't know.

[Spencer Martin]

Wait, he's at. Is he at.

[Johan Berniele]

No, he's not at European Championships either.

[Spencer Martin]

But he's going. Wait a second, hold on.

[Johan Berniele]

He's not on the start list.

[Spencer Martin]

He's not. Wait.

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah, I don't understand it either. But.

[Spencer Martin]

Wait, are you looking at pro cycling stats?

[Johan Berniele]

Yeah.

[Spencer Martin]

2025 Giro del Amelia. I see Red Bull. Bora has Gian.

[Johan Berniele]

Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. My mistake, my mistake. Okay, I. I was looking at this vibe.

[Spencer Martin]

That's what I thought.

[Johan Berniele]

Okay.

[Spencer Martin]

And we'll be back next week.

[Johan Berniele]

Okay, thanks.

[Spencer Martin]

All right, talk to you later.

[Johan Berniele]

Bye.

[Spencer Martin]

Whatever team FI is on has a chance to win a championship.

[Johan Berniele]

I'm Christina Williams, host of the podcast in case you missed it with Christina. Christina Williams. The WNBA playoffs are here, and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind the scenes moments you won't find anywhere else. It's really, really hard to be the champions, but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the new challenge that we have. So listen to in case you missed it with Christina Williams, an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and entertainment on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.