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- [00:00]
A
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B
Business it's logical I think Cajarural is the first available team in the rankings. So based on that I think ASO made the logical choice and I assume.
- [00:41]
C
They'Re going to go to the Giro with Dylan Gronnevaggen now, which when they signed Gronnevagan I thought well they must be going to the Tour. They must know and he could maybe win a Tour stage, but I think he has a much better chance of winning a Giro stage. These Giro sprints are a lot softer Tour sprints, especially if your team is not the best competing against the best leadouts in the world at the Tour. Yeah, the Giro is different. I mean he could realistically win a Giro stage, which would be massive for that team. That would make their season. Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bernal. We are going through the last week of cycling news. The season started kicked off it started Johan and the races are coming thick and fast. We've got Jayvine won the Tour down under but that feels and broke his wrist in the process. That feels like a lifetime ago. We have the Saudi Tour going on multiple races in Valenciana, the Mallorcan Challenge, Mallorca races going on. We will try to recap the highlights of those as much as we can. Little bit of news on Trudeau France Wild cards picnic personnel may be in financial trouble as well as Jonas Finnegaard crashing during training. But Johan to take it back all the way back to the Tour down under. If you can remember that Jayvine wins after we did our last show. The corkscrew climb had already happened. We predicted Walonga Hill was was announced as not happening. We predicted Jayvine would win easily. I would say the big thing we didn't see coming is that Jonathan Narvaez's teammate would crash on it. It was probably only two hours after we finished recording last seriously hurt. His back seems to be out for quite a long time so he did not get second. JVI J. Vine won by a massive margin over I believe Marshmid with Harry Sweeney getting a surprise third place. It was. I looked it up. It was the biggest margin of victory at the 200 Tour Down under in 19 years. So pretty good result for Jay Vine. Not the outcome he was looking for, holistically, I assume, because he hit a kangaroo on the final stage, finishing stage impressively, and then found out he had a broken wrist. But what were your thoughts on Jay vine winning that race?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I just found out actually just a few hours ago, Spencer, that Jay vine broke his wrist. I. I didn't know. Yeah, obviously we expected him to win, you know, after that demonstration on Corkscrew. And, yeah, UAE seems to, you know, they seem to be in great shape, but they seem to have a lot of bad luck because Narweis crashed hard. He was not the only one to crash. I think there's another rider out with an injury or a fracture even.
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C
It was multiple riders from that race that they lost during the race.
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B
Guys, Three guys. And then Jay Vine. I mean, yeah, it's down under, but, man, this. I think this is a first, right? In a. In a race, hit by a kangaroo. That's like. Yeah, that's pretty unique. It was actually on camera, there was two kangaroos basically jumping in the peloton. These. I mean, this is not like a dog, you know, these. These animals are massive. They're big.
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C
They're powerful, too.
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B
Yeah, it's not that they come running to the peloton. They jump. They come from, you know, above you. Yeah, it was panic. Unfortunately, Jay vine crashed. Made it to the finish. One dude and under, I think. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I saw an interview from him after the. After the race. He didn't seem to mention anything.
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C
He didn't mention anything at all.
- [04:17]
B
His wrist. And so finally, yeah, a fracture. I'm going to guess it's not. It's not a huge injury, but it required surgery.
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C
So.
- [04:29]
B
It. It's better to, you know, obviously it's a shame for Jay vine because he obviously started the season in great form. I'm. I'm going to guess he was good. He was. His ambition was to build up on that in the early races in the season, to have a few more results now. We'll see. We'll see what it, what it does. I mean, a wrist, it's not great. You can't hold your handlebars. Then again, you know, if we look back a few weeks ago, Walt Von Art broke his ankle, had surgery. And so this is a new generation, right? New generation of athletes. They're back straight away. Fortunately, nowadays there's a lot of technology to ride indoor different platforms where it's basically, you know, you can simulate training nowadays. So he's not going to lose a lot of condition. He may lose some races. Obviously, if you have a broken wrist, you need a few weeks, three, four weeks to heal. Right? So yeah, that's definitely going to be against, you know, against his ambitions, what Jayvine had at the beginning of the season, but still the first big race, the first World Tour race, if you win that, it's already, I mean, especially in him as an Australian rider. To win that race was, was on his, I think, I guess it was marked in red in his objectives list. So. But yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I don't know uae, they do have a lot of riders because I saw in, in Alula also some crashes of UAE writers. It does, it is, of course, listen, it's bad luck, you know, it's, you can't, you can't do anything against it. I mean, there's nothing you can do if a kangaroo all of a sudden comes out of the sky. I mean, sort of speaking, there's not much you can do. Right. But yeah, it shows that, you know, it's a very dominant team. They were, they started in amazing fashion, you know, dominating the, the, the first big, big stage race, I would say. And, and you know, it can be all over in a second. So that's why we need to, you know, we need to comment on the, on these shows and, and take it week by week. You can't look too far ahead, you know.
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C
Well, yeah, unless, but then unless they start introducing kangaroos to France, it's still, it's Picacho is maybe going to win that. Do you know how many riders ua finished, had finished the Tour Down Under? This is crazy. Three riders. Holy smokes. Jonathan Narvaez, Miko Berg, Stock Langet. Sorry, the way they put these names, it's Stock, vengen, langen, also DNF'd. And Juan Sebastian, sorry, Vengen, Stock, Langen, Juan Sebastian, Milano, all DNF'd. So they had three riders finish. One of those riders had a broken wrist. That is a bit of bad luck. Also, these races have been crazy hectic. You mentioned the crash at Saudi Tour. You know, it was like 106 kilometer. You know, these descents, these big desert descents, they're just these wide open roads. You can go so fast on them and you think, wow, I hope I don't crash on this. And there was a crash. Yeah. It is bad luck. They also, we should say they're having bad luck. Some crashes. They also lead the world or they lead the sport in wins so far this year in UCI points and J Vine has more pro wins than any other writer in 2026 so far. So still off to a pretty good start, you'd say.
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B
Yeah, and you know, they, they obviously have a great roster of riders so. But they will have to re reinvent their, their schedule a bit because you know those four riders who didn't finish, I don't know which other writer had also an injury or broken bone.
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C
So they're all pretty important riders. Yeah, yeah, that is the problem.
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B
You need to shuffle around a little bit and, but anyways they have, they have a very deep roster so maybe, you know, they, maybe they're gonna have to start one of the races with six riders or something. But ultimately I think they're going to be fine.
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C
I have a piece hopefully coming out later today that it goes through the points lost and gained each off season and for the second straight off season, UAE has lost like more points than almost any team and they still project to be the best team this year by a massive margin. So they can seeming like. What's weird is every offseason they're getting worse because they're shipping out great riders and they still continue to get better because the riders, they have step up and improve so they'll probably be okay.
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B
They're also, they also, they have a great development program. Yeah, I've heard, I've. I've even heard that they're looking at starting a junior team also or at least a collaboration with a proper junior team. So it's always the question, right? I mean, if you're part of such a great team, it's normal that some riders who reach a certain level leave to other teams to either have a more protected role, salary wise I don't think salary wise I think it's hard to compete with uae, but still. But then it's to be seen how these riders perform. You know, once they're in another role and have responsibility and stress and they need to deliver. You know, I've seen riders leave there and in many teams, which this is the case where when you're on a star studded team and guys leave sometimes it's basically at the end of their career just for, you know, another or the last big contract that sometimes happens. But I'm not worried for UAE at all. I mean even they have, if they have lost points, points wise, they're Going to make up for it.
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C
Yeah. I mean, I would say Navarre Navarros is. I mean, is he even going to race this year? He has broken vertebrae. We don't know. Does he? He is, yeah. Pretty important writer for that team if you think about the Tour last year. Yeah, he was key. So it there, like his loss is a big deal. Vine will recover. He's slated to do this year. To tell you, I think my. My crazy big brain thought is this is actually good for his hero because it focuses now him now to Repeat for the 0. Put money on it right now. Jay, vine wins this year. To tell you, someone messaged me and they're like, he's good, but does he have the killer instinct to win? Like, he's the. He has more wins than anyone else this year. He's pretty good at winning. Better than a lot of other writers. But. Yeah, I'm kind of joking there, but I do think jayvine could have a good Giro, though, partly because now he has to focus on it because he can't race for a while. I. Stepping away from the Tour down Under, I mean, I just to. I don't want to gloss over this, that Narvaez injury is a big deal for them, but think about someone like Brandon McNulty. That guy wasn't in the Tour team for years. They can just pull him off the bench drum in the Tour de France. So they do have some options that other teams.
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B
They have many options.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Well, look, if even. Even last year, Spencer Narvais was, I think, in two occasions, like the last guy to set up Pugach, right?
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C
Yeah, like in key moments normally, but.
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B
It'S normally not his role. I mean, he. He stepped up because they lost Almeida. Almeida was supposed to be that guy. So he stepped up. He's. Narvis has never done that before in the high mountains. He's never been there at the last. At the last man. He knew he had to step up. He did it. So, I mean, if. If the roster is normally the way it should be, Narvaez would probably be the fourth last guy. There's probably two other guys. And then Pugachar, you know, of course there will be. There will be del Toro, I guess. Almeida is not doing the Tour. No. This. This.
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C
No, no.
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B
They still have Adam Yates. They. I mean, they have many other. Other writers. I mean, Jan Christen, I don't know. Jan Christen's probably not a Tour of France rider, or at least not with Pogachar in the team. He's probably not enough domestique for that in my mentality. But. And they have, they have many guys who, who can do that.
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C
Yeah, I think they'll, they'll manage. Don't weep for uae. They'll be fine. The Saudi Tour is underway. I would say it's the Saudi Alula Tour, so I would imagine it's happening in Alula Tour. The region of Alula looks incredible. We're not getting paid. We're not getting paid by Lulu to say this. I was stunned by the scenery. It is more impressive than I thought. This, this is justifies why you do a bike race in a region like this because I wouldn't know it existed but Jonathan Milan wins the first two stages. The first stage was incredibly hard, broken up. It was, you know, echelon's like a kind of a breakaway, kind of two pelotons but stays away. Wins the first stage, Milan wins the second stage. I was thinking this guy's going to be unbeatable in all the sprints. Summit finish on stage three where Giannis Vassard wins from Tudor, a 27 year old Swiss rider who I, I don't think I'd ever heard of. But it was an impressive summit finish. When you said he's 50, 56 kilos which, which explains why he was so good on that summer finish. But then today, stage four in the bunch sprint, I thought Milan was a shoe in, but Matteo wins on XDS Astana. Like it was a really. Milan kind of had a, it was a little bit of a bumpy. He had to move around quite a bit but he had a clean line to that finish and Matteo just came right out of his slipstream and won the stage. Really impressive win from him.
- [14:12]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a nice win. I mean, I think you're right. I mean I couldn't see exactly what the wind was doing, but the wind obviously plays a big role there on those finish stretches. You know, I think it's very strange way of racing in Alula Tour. If you look, you know, there's a lot of straight roads and then you see these riders now and then getting off all the time. Like the asphalt is like a bit higher than you have sand on the side. You see them constantly off and on the, on the road it's dangerous and they're lucky. It's not a big peloton, you know, it's not a huge peloton. I think there's like 115 riders of which, you know, there's some, there's some continental teams, not even pro teams. So these Guys are obviously in the, in the final of the race. They're, they're just hanging on for dear life. And it's a battle between 40, 50 riders, but still it looks dangerous. And yeah, I mean, we also. That crash, Spencer, two days ago on that downhill, as you said, 106 kilometers per hour, that was, that was scary. I mean, we've seen those. That ua. UAE guy from the development team, I forgot his name. I think it was an Italian guy. He had downhill.
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C
No. Yeah, his. He had no skin left on his buttocks. Yeah.
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B
I mean, imagine going down at 100k an hour.
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C
Uh, no.
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B
And, and then there was, there's a Belgian guy, Lawrence Rex, I think. Lawrence. Lawrence Rex from Sudal Quickstep. He has three broken vertebrae from that crash. So, you know, it's, it's a high pace to pri. High price to pay to, you know, for a race like this. But, and also, Spencer, what I really want to point out is the, the, the really great start and amazing presence of our new American team, Modern Adventure. You know, I mean, they, they're, they're starting in this race. It's their first race, I guess. I don't know if they did another race.
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C
I think it's their very first race. Yeah. Which is a hard race to have to be your first race.
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B
They are, they are very, very proactive. They take initiative. They're a few times in the top 10. I guess today they had a guy in the top 10. American guy, not American.
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C
I get. Well, I guess technically American. North American. Riley Pickerel, who is Canadian.
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B
Oh, he's Canadian. Okay.
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C
And really good. Right. I was actually surprised they got, they got him from Israel Premier Tech. I didn't understand why they didn't renew his contract, but really good pickup and pays off already.
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B
Yeah, yeah. But especially the visibility of the team, I think is the, the takeaway.
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C
Yeah.
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B
You know, they're, they're present, they're in the front. They're taking initiative. So. Yeah, that's, that's really nice to see. And you know, also the, the organizers must be very pro modern adventure because they, they got a nice invite for the Tour of Catalonia, which is, you know, big world tour race in Catalonia. They, I think they have some kind of a base in Girona, I think. Yeah, that would make sense to have them there. That's obviously a bigger race, a high level race and it's going to be a bit different in terms of, in terms of results, but great start for the team, man. I have to say. It's, it's nice to see.
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C
It is really good to see. Yeah. They're very visible. The bikes look great. Those factors. Yeah. What's crazy is I was thinking that's the only team with factor bikes this year and they. So this is really super Arrow bike they're on and then they're the only one that has it. So it's kind of an interesting factor.
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B
Is also sponsoring the. The women's team, Human Powered Health, I think.
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C
Oh, interesting. I didn't realize that.
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B
Yeah, I think so.
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C
Quite. We won't, we won't get into. We won't get into like today's, Today's news of factors. Sponsorship changes for 2026. But they have like very drastically changed their. Their sponsor situation. I think they had David Miller come in and take over marketing, so.
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B
Oh, okay.
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C
Making changes there. Yeah. Super. Kind of an interesting decision, but curious to see it seems like they're streamlining things and, and as we'll get into later in the show, lot of pressure on the bike industry, a lot of financial pressure, which could explain some of the changes we've seen. So also there's just a lot of racing that's been going on. There was two races in a. Near the Costa Blanca, maybe on the Costa Blanca in Spain at last weekend. Michael Matthews wins the first one. And then there was the Classica Communicat Communitat Valenciana, where if you look at. If you start to look closely at these routes, it left, right in front of like a lot of team hotels for their training camps.
- [19:13]
B
Yeah.
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C
So you'd like, oh, okay, I see what's going on here. And then Dylan Groenevagan wins. The significance of that, other than Dylan Groningen being happy that he won a race that he's on Unibet Rose Rockets. So I believe it was the first race of their season that you. The new. They're like new and improved Unibet Rose.
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B
If the race of Michael Matthews was.
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C
The first one, then I guess, yeah, they must have been there.
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B
They were there. Yeah. It was their second race. But anyway, great way to start the season, you know.
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C
Great way. Yeah.
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B
And also for. And it's been. It's been a while since he won, I guess. And then for him to win on that new team, for their confidence and for the, the team's confidence in Grune, it's. It's great if you can straightaway deliver, you know, because it's. I mean it was a star signing and it's a. It's not a cheap contract. So I guess you know both Grune and the team must be extremely happy with that win.
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C
And the big news that came out, I saw it yesterday in a French paper that they're not. I thought they were a lock for the Tour. They're apparently not going to the Tour. Kahu Raw's going instead. Let's leave that. Let's go. Let's talk about Mallorca really quick and then we're going to come back to that. I have some thoughts. You. You're going to explain to us why this happened. I have some thoughts why that actually could be good for them to not go to the Tour. But there's the challenge. Mayorca going on Challenge. My work is a little confusing because it's a stage race. It's happening every day. You do not have to. It's not really a stage race though. You do not have to compete every day. Is that correct? Johan? You can pick and choose.
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B
It's been like this for a very long time. I remember back in my days when I was riding at Onse, we could. It was five days and you can. We were there with the whole team. We had our training camp like a week before and then some guys did three races. Some. I mean, I have a picture somewhere. I'll see if I can find it. We. I think we raced like with 20 guys. One stage. You could. The whole team could race, you know, so.
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C
Oh wow. That's kind of cool.
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B
Back then it was training races and there's no gc. There's no gc. Every day it start. There's no time. It's not on time. Right. So you can skip a race. Nowadays they also use these races to have riders on the development teams join the World Tour teams or the pro teams. For example, I saw Lorenzo Finn who was the world champion under 23 and. And he was the world champion juniors. His first in his first race he straight away rode with. With the pros in the team time trial yesterday.
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C
No.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Interesting.
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B
And so it's. It's a bunch of one day races and it's a nice system. I think it is a nice system. It's very, you know, it's. It's a great opportunity to try out different riders during the five days.
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C
And the big. The thing that stuck out to me most from this. Well, Antonio Morgato, I believe that's his first name. 1A stage looks great. This is a guy that I think is really good. Another guy in UAE that they seem to have just developed.
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B
We talked about him I think two years ago on the Upper comer show. I think.
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C
Yeah, we have an upper coming show on on Monday. We should talk about him again. He's gonna be good. But they had more. I mean I'm checking his age. He's only 22. That's crazy. You know he got in 20, 24. He was top 10 at Flanders, fifth at Flanders. So he would have been. I think he was not. I don't even know if he was. Was he 20 or 19 at the time? Yeah, it.
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B
I.
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C
Well we'd have to check. Still super impressive. But he went to stage and then there's a team time trial on. It's that all these stages have names like Trofeo Cecil was the team time trial. I thought, well ua UAE is going to be shoo in for this. But this is the significance of this is there's a team time trial, first stage of the Tour de France. So what a lot of teams did like Red Bull is they brought Remco Evanopol and Florian Lipowitz who are going to both be on the Tour de France team. Probably to have them just try out. You know, it's important to get reps. Team time sh. Team time trialing together they win the stage. Movie stars second. Kind of a surprising result. J Cola third, UAE fourth. And then Remco wakes up today, says I wanna, I wanna maybe win another race. And he just, it was pretty impressive. They, it was a hilly like mountainous stage. He just rode away from a group that included Morgato and. But he crested the Col de Soler and it was like 50k to the finish and he just kept piling on. It was like a two minute gap by the, by the finish line by himself. Pretty impressive result.
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B
Yeah, I mean it was all planned like this obviously because they, they did the call the Sawyer from the backs, I mean from the long side from Sawyer coming from.
- [24:24]
C
So yeah, like from the ocean big.
- [24:27]
B
From the big road. And then you know you have a bunch of switchbacks and Red Bull was setting it up. Remco just attacked and just, you know, rode away from everybody. It shows that first of all he's in great shape. I think, I think for Remco this is a dream start, you know, to state the first two races, two wins on his new team. This is great for the team, you know, riders and staff to you know, okay, say okay. We have this new star rider. He shows up, races twice, wins twice. This is the dream start. Right. Of course, you know it's too, it's. It's challenge of Mallorca. It's not. I mean, the. The whole peloton is not there, but still, it's. A win is a win. Winning is. Is difficult. And the way, especially the way he rode today was quite impressive. I mean, those climbs, obviously, in Mallorca are like the ideal terrain for Remco. They're not super steep. They're rolling. You can. High speeds. To me, it looked like. Obviously. Listen, he was. He was. He went all out, but it looked like he was on a training ride. Obviously, he was not, but, you know, he. He did. I think. I think he's. He's very happy with his start at Red Bull. I mean, what. What else can you wish for? You know, I mean, there's a lot of talk in the off season about this transfer. You know, a lot of people around him. This team of super experts, scientists that he was supposedly lacking at sudok quickstep, they're all behind him. I was surprised, actually. I mean, it's. It's. I mean, listen, it's a bit ridiculous in my opinion, but. But it's. That's what happens when you have these resources. But if you. If you see Remco arrives, I. I don't know how many staff people have counted. I mean, there's. There was guys there. There was guys there who was, you know, from the staff, and they. There was no time. There was so many people. There was no time for some of them to congratulate him because they. There was just no space. So many people around him.
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C
You know, that's a. Definitely a new trend. A lot of these teams, it's an arms race for staff. How much staff can you hire? Yeah, yeah.
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B
But anyways, listen, it. It seems to work there, so off to a great start. So that's. That, you know, I mean, it's better than starting on the wrong foot and having to catch up with, you know, your form or your race strategy or whatever is not on point. They seem to be on point with everything. So that's. That's obviously, you know, a great thought for him and them.
- [27:04]
C
It's. Yeah, it's big for Remco and it's. It's maybe even bigger for Red Bull Bora, because this was a big swing they took, and it's starting off as good. It's also a home race for them. Kind of like.
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B
I think they are the only World Tour team that kept. Stayed loyal to Mallorca. There's been. There's been years where there was a lot of teams, and I think they're probably the only one who Stays there. They did all their training camps there, so. So yeah, they know, that's for sure.
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C
Yeah. So let's take a quick break for some to hear from here, to hear from some partners and then we'll get into. I want to you to explain to me why Unibet Rose Rockets is not going to the Tour, why Kahu Raw is going instead. And we're going to get into some financial issues at Picnic Post and across the bike industry in general. Okay, Johan. So I was shocked to see this news that I thought Unibet was a just a shoe in for the Tour because I was looking at the rankings, I thought, well, the Tour is not going to invite a Spanish Pro Conti team because I don't even know if I ever remember that happening. But no, they're not, they're not going. Kahoot is going instead. But because of the way the Vuelta sets up their wild cards, there's three essentially. There used to be, I guess four, but now there's three viable second division Spanish teams that can go to a Grand Tour as a wild card team. That's Kahu Rawl, Burgos, BH and Equipo Kern Pharma. The Vuelta only gets two invites every year, so they invite two of those three, one gets left out. So for the Vuelta this year it's going to be. Yeah, and Burgos. So Kahural was not, is not going to the Vuelta. That left them with, if they want to do a Grand Tour, they can do the Giro or the Tour. I thought they were going to go to the Giro. No, the Tour invites them instead of Unibet. I guess Tetima Rose Rockets is what they're called now. And now Unibet's going to the Giro instead as the wildcard team. Why? Why is this happening?
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B
Well, as you said, Spencer, there's this, I mean, there seems to be this rotation in Spain. So Burgos and Kfarma were not invited last year because Cajar went. And I'm, I'm thinking, I'm thinking that Husk also was there last year.
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C
Yeah, yeah, I remember them there. But then now I look at the rankings and you have to be in the top 30.
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B
Exactly.
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C
To do a Grand Tour and they're not in the top 30.
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B
Yeah, so they're out already anyway. They were going to be out anyways. Even within the top 30. They were going to be out anyways because they had their spot last year. I mean, listen, they left Ken Pharma out last year and the year before they had won three stages in the world.
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C
Yeah.
- [29:55]
B
So that's the system. So already Cajarural was not going to be at the Vuelta. The Vuelta and the Tour are owned by the same company, right? It's aso. So the fact that Cajarural is not at the Vuelta is an advantage. But the main reason is very simple. Spencer, from off the top of my head, I think in the rankings they're 25th Team Arkea is out and Inter Marche is out. So they're 23rd. So they are the first team of all the wild cards. A part of the automatic wild cards. Also the Tour starts in Spain in Barcelona. Cajarural is a. It's a team with a lot of history. They're around for a very long time. The company Cajaral is a very powerful company in Spain. It's a bank with a lot of history. Also probably some political power. There's been some lobbying behind the scenes for sure. So I'm not surprised. I think it's the logical, straightforward choice. It's the first team that was available for all the wild cards. And then, yeah, I think everybody got caught up a bit in the hype of the Rockets. Rose Rockets or whatever. What are they called now? The Rose Rockets.
- [31:25]
C
Yeah, Rose Rockets. And they have a very. For people that don't know, they have a very active and popular YouTube channel, which is how they funded the team.
- [31:33]
B
For a long time initially. Yeah. So I think that's. That's a bit the. The unhappiness on with the fans on social media because it is a very popular team. But then I saw. I saw one of the directors of the. Of ASO saying that. And on top of that, they made a strategic decision, I think two years ago to actually register as a French team. It's a French team, Unibit Rose Rockets. Like French license. But the identity is not French. It's the identity. It's a Dutch team. Right.
- [32:07]
C
Well, and I look this up, legally, you can't be a Dutch team and have a gambling sponsor. So that's also part of the reason change to France.
- [32:16]
B
Okay, okay. But so, yeah, I think the hype was, okay, let's have the rockets to. To the Tour of France. But I'm not surprised, man, I'm not surprised. Listen, I think, obviously, listen, hats off for what these guys are doing, right? They started from. From everybody was saying, how are these guys going to start a team? And three years after they are in contention for. To the France spot, which is already amazing on itself. Now they don't get it, but they did some really nice signings. You know, they signed Grunebig and they signed Walt Pouls. They signed Victor Lafay.
- [32:52]
C
Both of those guys won Tour stages fairly recently. All three of those guys?
- [32:58]
B
Yeah, three of them. Yeah. But. But yeah, I think it's just they're gonna have to wait for another one or two years. And I think they took it really. They took it really in a nice way. You know, obviously they're super disappointed. Everybody wants to be at the Tour de France, but honestly, I think. I think another year or another two years would probably be better for them to consolidate. Consolidate the team more and, and have. Have more. More a deeper team still to go to the Tour de France. And they're gonna get there eventually if they, if they stay around. And there's no reason to think why they wouldn't stay around. So it's just, yeah, they're gonna have to be in the waiting room for another year at least. So. But I think, I think it's. It's logical. I think is the first available team in the rankings. So based on that, I think ASO made the. The logical choice.
- [33:56]
C
I, and I assume they're going to go to the Giro with Dylan Groenevagan now, which, when they signed Gronnevag and I thought, well, they must be going to the Tour. They must know, and he could maybe win a Tour stage, but I think he has a much better chance of winning a Giro stage. These Giro sprints are a lot softer than Tour sprints, especially if your team is not the best competing against the best leadouts in the world at the Tour. Yeah, the Giro is different. I mean, he could realistically win a Giro stage, which would be massive for that team. That would make their season. Yeah.
- [34:27]
B
And they have, you know, la can win a Giro stage. Kubies Wild Pools still win a stage from the breakaway. Kubik or what is this? Kubis.
- [34:36]
C
Lucas Kubis. Yeah, he's really good.
- [34:39]
B
That guy's really good. So they have a bunch of riders who could win a Giro stage. And I think actually it's kind of the next logical step, right? I mean, straight away to the Tour de France. I think it's a bit too much wishful thinking, honestly, if you're really honest.
- [34:55]
C
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
- [34:57]
B
You know, I mean, for example, okay, they have this new sponsor, Rose Bikes, right. It's an online bike manufacturer, but that brand doesn't even make time trial bikes. You know, they, they. I mean, they were open about it. They made an agreement with Ridley and They bought Ridleys and they painted them within the rose colors. So that means that they still have some work to do. Right.
- [35:24]
C
I know another. I know a team that went to the Tour that time trial bikes did pretty well.
- [35:30]
B
Yeah. 25 years ago.
- [35:35]
C
I love that. The Trans. It's so clearly light speed. Titanium bike.
- [35:41]
B
Yeah, that was. Yeah. Trek was not happy about that. Let me tell you.
- [35:45]
C
It's like that picture is everywhere in the US too.
- [35:48]
B
Yeah, I know.
- [35:49]
C
If you really look closely, Spencer.
- [35:52]
B
And it was such a bad paint job. It was such a bad thing.
- [35:55]
C
Did you have a Dave Bolsh paint that the night before? Really?
- [35:58]
B
Like it was like spray painted. Like, you know, like it was. It was crazy. It was unbelievable. Yeah. So for the listeners, you know, it was Lance in the first tour in 99. He rode a light speed bike. Time for a bike painted, you know, plain blue with like strange Trek stacker stickers on.
- [36:18]
C
Looked like someone like drew Trek on.
- [36:21]
B
No, I know. I was thinking it was stickers, but it was, it was actually. It was very ghetto. Very ghetto.
- [36:28]
C
Pretty funny. But. But this, this does make sense. Yeah, I think we. I got caught up in hype too. We were a little too excited. This is better. I think this is better for them in the long run. I think you're right. It's funny story about Kahu Raul. It's a big team, historic team. You would know this team. There was a race in Boulder and my friend was in the front group and there was a guy from Kahu Ral and he attacked and he didn't go with them. And the guy stayed away and won obviously. I was like, why didn't you follow him? I didn't even know what that he's like. I didn't know what that team was like, what, what is that team? I never heard of it before. Like they're pretty good, man. Like maybe, maybe follow them.
- [37:03]
B
No, but I mean like historically, like even in the. I would say in the 80s, they already had a team. I mean Pedro Delgado was on that team. Marino Lea was on that team. It's that team. I mean that sponsor has been around for a long time and obviously then they went. They were out for a bit, then they came back. But it's a super powerful company in the Basque country, so in the north.
- [37:30]
C
Is it. It's a bank. Is what bank?
- [37:31]
B
Yeah, is like. It's like a. A savings bank. It's the bank of like the. It's little banks but it's super powerful.
- [37:40]
C
There's a lot of banking tradition in the north of Spain. Like Santander. Yeah, it's from. Must be from all the shipping throughout the years, I guess. But that's another podcast for another day digging into Spanish banking and how that relates to aso. But other news that came across our desk, I thought this was super interesting. So we've been talking for a long time. Why did picnic post SNL sell Oscar Onley? They allegedly got 6 million euros to sell Onley to Ineos. Very good writer, got 4th in the tour last year. And we were discussing it more like, wow, this is a big risk. You know, this is what they do. They sell riders mid contract. They get money for it. How long can this playbook work? This is a little aggressive, but the money in sports sub stack. And I don't. I could not find accredited author on this, which would make it. Which would. I guess you should take it with a grain of salt. But if you read this piece, they do have a lot of documentation. It doesn't look like they made this up. Someone did a lot of research when they were doing this. The headline is they lost 19.5 million euros over the last three years. And if like, you can't really lose money as a cycling team because you don't have any assets, you don't really make any money. So if a sponsor's giving you $10, you should spend 9, maybe save a dollar for the next years, maybe maybe spend 10 and try to run it again next year exactly the way you are. But they're losing money like, and they're apparently 14.6 million euros in debt. So that would also explain why they need that money from the Onley sale. And this, this person, this journalist listed out the 2024 budgets for teams that have to declare they have to file reports basically with their government. Visma's first at 52 million euros for 2024. Picnic is last 11.7 million euro budget. And you might think, well, that's a lot of money. Well, that's a lot less than 52 million. And the thing that's expensive for running a cycling team is the salaries. So just for an example, Visma spent 63% of their budget on salaries. Decathlon 59%. Those are pretty good numbers. Picnic spent 134% of its budget on salaries. So it's spending far more than it's making. Just paying people their salaries. That's not a good spot to be in.
- [40:10]
B
But first of all, Spencer, how, I mean, my first question would be, how is this possible? How can you spend 130 of what you don't have. So I've always had questions about this team. And you know, it doesn't. I mean, never really made sense to me that. Because I know the sponsors that came and go. If you look at the history of that team, you know, they had sponsors. Some people didn't even know that they existed then. They change sometimes in the middle of the year. I mean, there must be some kind of sponsor or wealthy individual behind because, I mean, it's a while ago. I'm not gonna be right saying it's 10 years ago or 15 years ago. I don't remember how long ago, but I remember one year this team started the season and they didn't have a sponsor and they made up this strange name like 4i something. 4i. A weird formula. Like a formula. Whatever it was, it meant nothing. Yeah.
- [41:21]
C
Yeah.
- [41:22]
B
Was it for.
- [41:24]
C
Yeah.
- [41:26]
B
If you go through the history of the team, you'll see. And then it became Argos Oil or something. And the Argos deal also seemed to be like just a front for whatever it was.
- [41:40]
C
Argos, Shimano for a while.
- [41:41]
B
But before that, before that was it. There was a time it's called. There was a 4 in it. It was just a number like 4x or 4i. Whatever.
- [41:52]
C
It's not on the. Okay, is it it 4i or something?
- [41:56]
B
Yes, something like that. Yeah. So that was not a company. That was just something and you know, awaiting the, the, the, the arrival of a sponsor. So. But in the meantime, people have to get paid. So there must be some kind of funding behind that is not public. Otherwise it's just not possible. I mean, the proof is. I mean, if you have 11 million and you spend 130% on that, on salary, that's not the total budget because you have operation costs, you have a lot of other running costs. So it's probably 150, 160% that you need to run the team. So I mean, Nowadays, Spencer, with 11 million, you can't be in the world tour. It's impossible.
- [42:40]
C
No, no, it's impossible.
- [42:42]
B
So I said, you know, I've always. I never understood how that team worked. But now if I see those numbers, then, yeah, I mean, what is it? $19 million.
- [42:53]
C
19 million? Yeah, €19 million in losses over the last three years. Okay, so the way that the dollar is devaluating by the second, that could be $100 million by tomorrow. We don't know. But we got to start getting paid in Euros, Johannes. But.
- [43:11]
B
Well, you're fine, but not good for me.
- [43:15]
C
I had a deal a few years ago where I was getting paid in British pounds. And it's like you can get a 30% raise just on the changes in the way the currency is trading. It's kind of interesting, but the article suggests that. I'm just going to say the articles suggest that DSM and the CEO of DSM is covering these losses. That's their, their best guess whether it's DSM or not. You're right. It's got to be somebody. It's same thing with Visma. Someone's covering that.
- [43:50]
B
There was considerable over the years. I mean, I'd love to. I'd love to do the math one day on all the riders with contracts that left that team. That's in the millions.
- [44:05]
C
Oh yeah.
- [44:06]
B
Many millions that were, you know, income that was not accounted for initially. So, you know, we all know who I mean. Oscar only left now. I mean, now it's clear also they could not have kept him. They just could not have kept him. Right, because a guy who's fought in the tour wants a raise. They couldn't give him the raise. They couldn't commit for multiple years. Let's not forget also, Spencer, that this article, I haven't read it, but it makes sense because if we go back to a few months ago when the World Tour licenses were attributed, they only got it for one year and they revised for the next two years because they didn't have any financial guarantees for 27 and 28. So it kind of all starts adding up and starts to make. Yeah, starts to make sense now that they definitely in financial trouble.
- [45:01]
C
I mean, they must have been shopping him during the tour that he was getting forth because there's just no way they could have kept him.
- [45:09]
B
Yeah. And then. Yeah, you know, look at, look at. I mean, okay, Bardet, Bardet retire. So that was a big salary. Oscar only changes teams, plus they get a big bonus for his sales. I mean, they need to do these kind of things and they didn't get anybody of a, you know, considerable salary to. To. In. In the. In the place. Not. Not of only. But also not for Borde. So they're getting cheaper and cheaper.
- [45:40]
C
Yeah. And we. We'll keep people informed of this. I thought this was a pretty good piece. Thank you, money and sport for publishing it. I would, I would get. You're right, someone's covering this, but it just made me wonder, are they going to try to sell this license at some point and get out? Was the on the sale part of the unraveling of this the thing is.
- [45:58]
B
Selling something that is not very successful is not easy. You know, they're in the World Tour. The only, the only way they can be. They can stay in the World Tour if, if somebody comes in and guarantees financially 27 and 28. But then, you know, who, who are they going to sign? Right? I mean who, which big names? They, they almost need to have writers from their development program step up and score points to remain in the World Tour.
- [46:28]
C
Yeah.
- [46:31]
B
I think it's not, it's, it's, it's not. I mean they got third today. Today, you know, in the, in the Alula Tour. You know this guy, it's funny, funny signing. Actually. This, this guy was a, a Cat 3 rider and he got second in the World Championships gravel. The guy who up third today in, in Alula, what's his name?
- [46:55]
C
His name is. It's Fritz, but I like to think it's Fritz.
- [47:03]
B
I think this guy, if I'm not mistaken. I hope I have the right guy. Let me, let me just check.
- [47:08]
C
No, he got second. He did get second of World Championships last year.
- [47:12]
B
Yeah. So nobody. He was, he was a basically, you know, a club rider. He was on beat cycling. They are, they're like, they're not, they're not pro team, you know, they're like third category team. And so I mean these kind of guys obviously are interesting. They. They're cheap and, and they score points. But you know, they're going to need a lot of Fritz guys to, to score points and, and, and remain. Remain in the World Tour with the points.
- [47:42]
C
I mean this guy must be a massive engine. He got second at a CEU Tour time trial last year and won the Dutch Gravel Championships. I mean he gotta be.
- [47:51]
B
And second in the world.
- [47:53]
C
Second in the world. And he beat Tibor del Grasso in the.
- [47:56]
B
Yeah, he was, he was the guy who could stay the longest with Florian Vermeers.
- [48:02]
C
Yeah, so he's clearly. But that's what this team is really good at is like they pull rabbits out of. But they are pushing this to the limit. The way they're shedding and then asking people to step up. There is a breaking point at a certain point, but now we know it's out of necessity. They don't. This is not a measured.
- [48:20]
B
And also Spencer, I fear for, I fear for them because, you know, now that it's known that they're in financial trouble, this is a, this is a snowball effect. You know, it's obviously not great for the motivation of the guys. You know, they're they're gonna be now in a situation where, okay, am I going to get paid next month? Right. Because we are not the only ones who are reading this article. And now that we're talking about it, they're obviously going to know about it, too. I mean, not everybody reads the substack articles, but this is going to be copied on other outlets. So this is not great for the team and for the atmosphere of the writers and the staff. And once this atmosphere starts to be doubts and everybody's talking to each other, it's difficult to stay focused, motivated, and to perform. Yeah.
- [49:07]
C
And I was talking to Kevin Vermarca. Vermark. Vermarca. Who came from picnic to uae and we were kind of. I don't know if we had this conversation public or private, but it's like, that's kind of a weird move. You go from being a leader to now you're a worker. But I was talking to him at their training camp and he. He didn't say anything specifically, but you could sense he was so much more relaxed and, like, almost relieved to be off that ship and to be at a team. Where you're at this, everything just exudes wealth around the UAE team. And that has to have been a big reason, like, I'm just going to go to this team. I know that. I know the check's going to clear every month and I don't have to worry about it anymore. And you're right, it's going to make it really hard to sign riders now that this is public.
- [49:52]
B
Yeah. For sure.
- [49:54]
C
Before we take off. Jonas Vinegard crashed in training earlier this week. He was. I. I wish I'd done a little bit. They're calling it an amateur rider, but I have questions about if it could truly be an amateur. Was following him on a descent. It sounds like he was trying to push it. This is all. The person who was behind him wrote a Strava post about this.
- [50:17]
B
Yeah.
- [50:17]
C
That apparently he was pushing it to drop the guy. The guy comes up to him, you know, later on the descent, he is crashing his face, which is not good. It's never good to crash on the descent if you're, you know, just for your training and stuff. But he crashes. And then we have a question from a reader about it. Before you respond, I'm just going to read this question and it's going to kick us into this conversation. This is from Alec. Alex says, I saw Jonas Vinegar crash in a descent in training today. It looks like some fan and we'll come back to that term fan was following him and Jonas may be pushed a little harder than necessary leading to the crash. My question for you guys is why are these riders required to wear their team jerseys on training rides? It seems like there's a bunch of pseudo paparazzi fans like Johan and I that just want to follow the pros everywhere. This has to be annoying for the guys as well as occasionally more dangerous. I know that team jerseys have sponsors on them, but for training rides, who really cares? I feel like riders would be happier being anonymous and basically just wearing like black kit. Like when people used to train with Ferrari when they weren't supposed to and they'd wear blacked out kits. Curious about your thoughts and if there are any rules where you could do this. But I would say first thing, Johan, first. These fans, and we've been these fans before, you know, these writers writing styles so well, even if Jonas is in a blacked out kit, we would know who it is. And a lot of people know, I.
- [51:32]
B
Mean, especially, I mean, I think he seems to have some kind of property in the south of Spain. No. Because he's there often.
- [51:40]
C
Yeah.
- [51:42]
B
So yeah, whether he's in the visma or in a normal. And not a kid, you know, the cycling fans know that they. He's there.
- [51:50]
C
Yeah.
- [51:50]
B
You know, you know, and on top of that, if you see a guy pass, whether it's on a Servelo bike or a time trial bike or, you know, you can. The style, you can see the style. I mean, you can see, okay, this is, this is a pro and there's not that many riders there in Andalusia. So all the guys who ride bikes know that Jonas is there for sure. I think it's a question of. And also I think we have to take it with a grain of salt whether Jonas was pushing it or not. I don't think so. I think it's just an unfortunate crash. I mean, these guys don't push it to drop cyclotourists or even amateur riders. They don't push it, they just do their thing. Who have even a well trained amateur, they can only follow until the pro rider decides, okay, know I'm going to push it a bit harder now.
- [52:45]
C
Well, that's what I was going to say is the moment they want to push it, 99% of people can't stay with them.
- [52:52]
B
Yeah, you dropped. So I, I think, you know, what I take away from it is that Jonas's reaction was probably okay. He was obviously disappointed and pissed off that he crashed. It's definitely not the writer the. The writer who tried to follow his fault because he was not even there. So he was. He only saw him in the corner and he went to check on him if he was okay. And Jonas was, you know, disappointed and pissed off, probably first of all with himself.
- [53:22]
C
I, I've got to say. And then I've been this guy before where you crash and people try to help you and you're so pissed with.
- [53:29]
B
Yourself, you know, you don't want anybody to make pictures because, I mean, you know, a rider who crashes on training, a professional rider, it's like, okay, you feel. You feel like a dumbass, you know, because you say, okay, you know, So I would take it with a grain of salt. Usually, I mean, I see, you know, there's some influencers. I mean, we met our Ukrainian friend in Calpe. Rides with the pros all the time. You know, the pros know these guys, you know, usually these guys who film and make videos. First of all, they know the riders, they're friends with them. They ask for permission. I know, for example, our Ukrainian friend, he always asks for permission to ride with them. They usually have no problem. And if they say no, rather not, then, you know, they respect the, the guy who. Whether they have to do exercises or they don't want to be filmed or whatever. Right. So what I think is the most dangerous is, you know, like you real, real cycling tourists who are there and all of a sudden they see these guys coming, they take out their phone and they want to take a selfie. You know, our film a little, that's dangerous.
- [54:38]
C
But.
- [54:38]
B
But I would say in 90 of the cases, the guys who want to ride on the wheel of professionals, they ask for permission. And usually the pro guy will say, you know what, it's fine as long as you don't follow me until my garage door, you know, at my house. But it's no, I think in this case, yeah, it's. The guys don't really mind because they all know that once they are in their zone and they have to do their intervals, you know, there's nobody can follow them. Not even very well trained amateur riders. It's impossible to follow a top professional.
- [55:22]
C
I mean, if you go to Artem's YouTube page, it's super interesting. He'll do the Zone 2 rides with. With Pagachar, and he puts his power on the screen. I mean, he's doing artemis, probably doing 350 watts. Yes. On these zone two rides, there's a limit to how long any. And on the downhills, I mean, Jonas Vinegaard, he's not known as like a daredevil descender. He would drop me so fast on a downhill if he wanted to, you.
- [55:46]
B
Know, like, I'm not professional rider.
- [55:49]
C
Yeah. It's like on downhills even, like the UAE team camp was kind of on the side of a hill mountain, and it was not a steep climb, but the way they would start their rides, you would. You get dropped so fast.
- [56:03]
B
Yeah.
- [56:04]
C
You just. A normal person can't stay with them. So I don't know if it's a epidemic going around that people are crashing these rides and you could imagine it being a problem a certain way.
- [56:16]
B
Yeah. What we can say in, in the case of Jonas, it's definitely not because it's overpopulated with amateur writers who want to make selfies of professionals. Because he's training in Andalusia. If you go to, you know, Benidorm, Calpe, Altea, that's different. It's. It's becoming, it's. In my opinion, it's becoming a problem. For example, if you go to Colderat nowadays, it is. It's an infestation of bike riders and the professionals for some, I mean, they're gonna. Ultimately, they're gonna go away from Kolerat because it's becoming too much. And you can't really do what you have to do because you have to navigate between all the riders who want to go up there.
- [57:01]
C
Yeah, yeah. I got to go to Mount Lemmon. That'll be the next spot. Well, Johan, do you have anything else to add before we take off?
- [57:11]
B
I think we've covered most of the news, Spencer. We'll be back very soon. On Monday. No, with our up and comer show.
- [57:18]
C
Monday with our up and comer show. So let's. We got to get those lists built over the weekend. That's a very important show every year. And then we should try to check in on our up and comers from last year, how. How they panned out.
- [57:29]
B
Let's do that. Yeah, let's start the show with that and then. Yeah. Okay.
- [57:34]
C
All right, Johan, well, I'll see you soon. And. And we'll be back for the move plus at the end of the week as well. So we'll talk to everybody soon.
- [57:40]
B
Okay, thanks, Spencer. Okay, bye.
- [57:49]
A
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