Session 100: Kerry Washington

Summary

Podcast Summary: Therapuss with Jake Shane

Session 100: Kerry Washington
Date: October 16, 2025

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Overview

This milestone 100th episode of Therapuss with Jake Shane features acclaimed actress Kerry Washington. The conversation is an energetic, heartfelt blend of nostalgia, behind-the-scenes revelations from Scandal, reflections on acting, insights into personal growth, and a look ahead at Kerry’s new projects. Kerry and Jake's chemistry radiates throughout, making for an episode that’s both funny and profoundly introspective—a true celebration of the show's journey and its thriving community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflecting on 100 Episodes & Community Impact

[03:19–09:00]

• Jake opens with deep gratitude, sharing how unexpectedly the podcast has transformed his life and forged a vibrant, supportive community (“It’s all you guys, that I’ve been able to make Therapuss…”).
• The team and close friends join in, reminiscing about favorite moments from past episodes and highlighting the collaborative, familial spirit that built the show.
• A playful segment features team members (Louise, Nolan, Manny, Will), and a call to Tucker for their top Therapuss memories.

2. Kerry Washington’s Scandal Stories & Career Highlights

Shooting "Scandal"

[10:01–28:00]

• Kerry reveals the behind-the-scenes logistics of iconic Scandal episodes, including a secret trip to the Bahamas while on maternity leave, and how the show pioneered Twitter-based fan engagement.
• Memorable fact: The first hospital scenes were shot on the Grey’s Anatomy sets (“All the hospital scenes in the Scandal pilot were Grey’s Anatomy sets!” [28:48, Kerry]).
• The rise of “TGIT” and Scandal as an appointment-viewing, social media-driven phenomenon.

Cast Camaraderie & Working Culture

[15:15–22:00]

• Kerry reminisces about the close-knit nature of the Scandal cast: “We go through a rocket ship like that with someone... you just have a different kind of trust.” [19:17, Kerry]
• Last day of shooting was surreal; no one took off their costumes as if to delay the goodbye.

Memorizing the Monologues

[22:14–25:49]

• No improvisation was allowed; Shonda Rhimes demanded word-perfect delivery.
• Kerry's techniques: recording her lines to listen on repeat, and writing them by hand.
• Joe Morton (“Rowan Pope”) is cited as having a photographic memory.

Groundbreaking Representation & The Real Olivia Pope

[29:51–34:45]

• The importance of Olivia Pope’s Black female lead status and eventual willingness to explicitly address race in episodes like “The Lawn Chair.”
• Judy Smith, the real-life inspiration for Olivia Pope, still works and is a sounding board for Kerry.
  Notable quote: “A person is not defined by their worst choice on their worst day.” [31:11, Kerry]

The Emotional Complexity of the Characters

[34:45–45:30]

• Kerry discusses moral complexity in crisis management, the white hat metaphor, and real-life implications of political storytelling.
• Jake and Kerry agree even the Scandal administration felt preferable to present-day American politics.
• Social impact: after 2016 election, people tweeted for “Olivia Pope to fix this”; Kerry highlights the real-world power of engaged citizens.

3. Personal Growth, Memoir, and Family Revelations

[54:59–61:00]

• Kerry opens up about learning as an adult that she was conceived via sperm donor—sparked by an invitation to appear on Finding Your Roots.
• The revelation transformed her relationships with her parents and inspired her memoir, Thicker than Water.
• Notable quote: “After playing Olivia Pope, I was finally ready to be number one on the call sheet of my life.” [61:02, Kerry]

4. On Saying Goodbye to Olivia Pope

[61:46–63:28]

• Kerry was “ready” to finish the show: “I wanted to go out before people—before other people were done with her.”
• Scandal taught her about leadership, family, producing, hiring, and firing—life skills gained from being at the center of a creative machine.

5. Deep Dive: Scandal Fandom and Memorable Moments

[63:28–74:06]

• Jake recounts his repeated Scandal rewatches and “living” at OPA.
• They laugh about the show's wild storylines (Tom and Cyrus!) and music choices (“The Light” is especially moving—“I'm going to walk down the aisle to The Light,” Jake, [68:05]).
• Kerry talks about on-set secrets (like hiding her pregnancy) and her early days at Spence school, where Gwyneth Paltrow and Jennifer Lopez both played roles in her youth.

6. New Projects: Wake Up Dead Man & The Prophecy

[74:06–77:20]

• Kerry teases the third Knives Out film, Wake Up Dead Man: “A little bit darker... gothic... smarter and funnier... there's no way in hell you will guess the ending.” [74:06, Kerry]
• Discusses her audio series, The Prophecy (Season 2), and producing Imperfect Women (Apple) and Animals (with Ben Affleck).
• Calls for more LA-based productions to support local creative communities.

7. Advice Segment: “Tell Me What’s Wrong”

[77:54–85:55]

• Kerry and Jake field audience-submitted dilemmas about friendship breakups, peaking in your 20s, social media comparisons, and reconnecting with exes.
• Kerry’s wisdom: “You always have room to peak again, but it might mean shifting your perspective on what you’re chasing.” [78:15]
• Practical tips for making new friends: lean into your interests and passions.

8. Bonus: Scandal Script Fun & Improv

[97:53–101:21]

• Jake asks Kerry to read Sabrina Carpenter lyrics as Olivia Pope (in character, to Fitz!)—a playful, memorable moment that delights both host and audience.
• Closing catchphrase: “It’s handled.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “When I started this podcast, I felt like it was going to be so difficult to make my own name in this industry... The community you guys helped create was so welcoming.” – Jake [00:39]
• “We didn’t bring a lot of people... our line producer was steaming clothes!” – Kerry, on the secret Bahamas shoot [10:54]
• “The reason [Oprah] started watching Scandal was because it’s the only thing anybody was talking about on Thursday on Twitter.” – Kerry [14:19]
• “A person is not defined by their worst choice on their worst day.” – Kerry, on Judy Smith [31:11]
• “I want people to embrace their inner Olivia Pope.” – Kerry [35:24]
• “When you go through a rocket ship like that with someone, you just really... have a different kind of trust.” – Kerry [19:17]
• “No improv allowed at all. Shonda has a few rules... you have to say what is written.” – Kerry [22:58]
• “After playing Olivia Pope, I was finally ready to be number one on the call sheet of my life.” – Kerry [61:02]
• “You always have room to peak again, but it just might mean shifting your perspective on what you’re chasing.” – Kerry [78:15]
• “Do you ever think down the line you guys would do some type of reunion?” – Jake
  “I feel like there’s a universe where there could be a Scandal movie...” – Kerry [77:20]
• “Would you read something as Olivia Pope?” – Jake
  Kerry reads Sabrina Carpenter’s “man child” lyrics as Olivia, culminating in laughter and applause. [98:03–101:21]

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:39: Jake’s heartfelt introduction; 100th-episode gratitude
• 03:55–06:32: Favorite moments from team members
• 09:01: Kerry arrives; mutual admiration and fun “Puss University” riff
• 10:01–28:00: Scandal deep dive—production anecdotes, Twitter impact, cast closeness
• 22:14–25:49: Memorizing the dialogue—Shonda’s non-negotiable scripts
• 31:11–34:45: Real-life Olivia Pope; Judy Smith’s influence and moral lessons
• 61:46–63:28: Letting go of Olivia Pope
• 74:06–77:20: Kerry’s new projects—Wake Up Dead Man, The Prophecy
• 77:54–85:55: Advice segment—audience “Tell Me What’s Wrong” dilemmas
• 97:53–101:21: Olivia Pope reads Sabrina Carpenter lyrics

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Tone & Language

Jake and Kerry’s banter is warm, fast-paced, and peppered with inside jokes and self-deprecation. Kerry is open, wise, and playful, while Jake’s enthusiasm and fandom add authenticity. The episode’s language is energetic, intimate, and genuine—making listeners feel part of the Therapuss family.

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Final Thoughts

This 100th episode is both a nostalgic Scandal masterclass and a candid exploration of what it means to show up for yourself, as an artist and as a person. Kerry Washington shares not just secrets from her most iconic role, but personal insights about family, honesty, and embracing your own agency. The episode is a gift to fans of both Scandal and Therapuss, distilling a decade of iconic television and podcasting into one celebratory, laughter-filled, and moving conversation.
“It’s handled.”

Transcript

[Kerry Washington]

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[Jake]

They've got the best gifts.

[Kerry Washington]

My holiday shopping hack. Join the NordicLub. Get an extra 5% off every rack purchase with your Nordstrom credit card. Plus buy it online and pick it up in store the same day for free. Big gifts, big perks. That's why you wreck.

[Jake]

Hi, pussies, and welcome to the 100th episode of Therapist. It's actually so crazy that we are at 100 sessions. You know, when I started this podcast, I felt like it was going to be so difficult to, like, make my own name in this industry that has been so crowded over these past few years. But I'm so. I feel so, like, grateful and lucky that because of literally you guys, it's all you guys, that I've been able to make therapists or we have been able to make therapists into what it is. And I can sit here in this room and interview people I've looked up to since I was a kid and talk to my best friends and read questions from you guys and call you guys and just. It's become this thing that I never, ever thought it would be. With this 100th episode, I'm just, like, feeling very grateful, especially for you guys for watching every week, giving me feedback and helping me be better at this really is what I'm feeling grateful for. For the 100th episode, we have the one and only Kerry Washington, aka Ms. Olivia Pope. If you know me, you know, Scandal is literally one of my favorite shows of all time. And it was kind of a no brainer when we were talking with Kerry Washington about doing therapists, that it just the 100th episode felt so right for her because Scandal has been such a huge part of my life. It has, like, joined me on so many different eras of my life, from when I was in eighth grade to when I rewatched it during COVID to when I'm rewatching it now. Like, it's just been with me throughout my life. So to have her be here for the 100th episode just felt very full circle for me. She is here to not only talk about Scandal, which we do, but also talk about her new movie, Wake Up Dead man, which is out December 12th on Netflix. I'm very, very excited to see it. I love the Knives out series. Just. I cannot believe we're at 100 episodes. I've been able to do so many things I never thought possible because of this show. I was able to tour and meet you guys. I never thought I'd be comfortable enough to get on a stage for an hour or two hours and just talk. And this show, like, talking to you guys through this show every single week has made me comfortable. And the community that you guys really helped create was so, like, welcoming of, like, all of, like, my accomplishments and even flounders and, like, flounders.

[Louise]

The second that came out of your mouth, I was like, no way. He keeps going.

[Jake]

But, yeah, like, really and truly, I am so grateful for the show, but more importantly, I am so grateful for you guys. I cannot wait to see what the rest of the season brings us and the next season. And I just. I love you guys. If there is anything you guys want to see going forward, the show is what it is because you guys have a voice, and I'd love to hear what you guys think. And in honor of the 100th episode, I'd like to ask everybody who's in the room with me right now their favorite moment of therapists so far. And that is Louise, Nolan, Manny, and Will.

[Louise]

My favorite moment from all of therapists so far is when we talked to Lea Michele, but specifically when she snatched.

[Jake]

The cards out of your hand and said, let me read these. Yes, that. That. That moment. I was like, I'm not going to ask her about the reading, but I hope that she, like, does some of the tell me what's wrongs. And she did. Leah, Michelle, I love you. Okay, Nolan, what was your favorite moment? I have two things. Okay. I have a favorite moment, but then I have a favorite thing about doing this show. A is how much I've been. It's just, like, how much I've been able to travel over the past two years and, like, me being in my early 20s and everything, just being able to bounce around and do a show that people in my generation and age group connect with so much has just been so cool, and it's just been such a wild ride. Oh, no, Lynn. And then you, role model and you switching places. Oh, yeah. That was. That was good. That was good. Louise Wallows.

[Louise]

When he said yogurt, that was sick.

[Jake]

He was dead serious. Oh, my God. Happy belated Cold. It was just his birthday.

[Louise]

Oh, cute. I also really loved having Audrey Hobert on.

[Jake]

Yes. That was a great episode.

[Louise]

It was. I love how I keep just trying to say my favorite.

[Jake]

Sorry.

[Kerry Washington]

Sorry.

[Louise]

It was such a great episode. I feel like, you really got to learn more about her right when her album was coming out, and it just made you connect so much with the music and the lyrics, and she's just such a star, and I loved it, and I feel really honored that we got to have her here.

[Jake]

And.

[Louise]

And that was a really great episode. I also love Matt Rogers, my soulmate.

[Jake]

I love him. Yeah. Well, what happened? What was your favorite. What was your favorite moment of Therapist? My favorite. Do you watch the show? I have not. I haven't. Noah back was my favorite. You were there for that? Yes. So what was your favorite moment that you weren't there for? No, I've listened to. I haven't listened to any of them yet, but, like, that I watched the clips. So what's your favorite therapist moment? Anything Cassidy Brown said that was my favorite therapist moment.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Louise]

Oh, can I say one more?

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Louise]

The Kerry Washington promo has been so fun today to see the audience reaction to it because it's been such a tent pole of Jake, period, this year that, like, seeing all of that come.

[Kerry Washington]

To life is really good, right?

[Jake]

Yes. It's like, people know how much that show means to me and how it mean how much it means to everybody.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

And I love when, like, a. Like a video that we work hard on, like, as all of us, like, hits.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

I think we should call Tucker and ask him his favorite moment of my show.

[Louise]

Good idea.

[Jake]

So it's my 100th episode of therapists, and I'm just calling you're on camera, if that's okay with you. And I'm just calling to ask what your favorite moment of my show has been. What.

[Kerry Washington]

What show?

[Jake]

They are post my show.

[Kerry Washington]

Therapist.

[Jake]

What? Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

What is the show called?

[Jake]

It's called Therapists. You were on it twice.

[Kerry Washington]

Is it on Hulu or something?

[Jake]

Is it like a sitcom? It's a podcast. Yeah. You don't remember that? You are. You. You don't remember? No, I do so many, I can't even remember. Oh, okay. Favorite moment is just. I love.

[Kerry Washington]

Because you always get into mischief on.

[Jake]

There, and so I always like that kind of those moments. Okay.

[Kerry Washington]

And you're like, I wonder why this.

[Jake]

Thing happened, and I wonder if it's because of this or something.

[Kerry Washington]

I like it when you problem solve on there.

[Jake]

Okay. Thank you, Tucker. Hi, brother. Brother.

[Louise]

Hung up.

[Jake]

Well, with that being said, Happy 100th episode of Therapists. I love you pussies more than anything in the entire world. This show would not be what it is. We without any of the wonderful guests that have been on, including my best friends, Brett, Julia, Peyton, Alice. It wouldn't be what it is without Nolan, our incredible producer, Louise, Manny, our incredible booking team, Jen and Alex, Zach, Matt Harley, who does all of our creative and helps design the set, along with Interwoven, who brings the vision to life, Will Cassidy. Sorry, everybody. That is a part of my life is a part of. And that includes you guys. Thank you guys for writing in every week. Thank you guys for watching. Thank you guys for just everything, for supporting me and letting me figure this show out as I go. I feel very, very lucky. And I love making you guys laugh more than anything. So I hope I can continue to do that. So thank you, guys. I love you. Tense up forever. As always, to submit a Tell Me what's Wrong, go to passthatpost.com and click Tell Me what's Wrong. Leave a name and number if you're feeling fancy and enjoy the 100th episod. Love you, pussies. Are you ready?

[Kerry Washington]

Yes. I. I want a degree from Puss University.

[Jake]

You're a professor?

[Kerry Washington]

I have an honorary degree.

[Jake]

No, you're a professor. You are a professor. Are you ready?

[Kerry Washington]

I'm ready. Are you ready?

[Jake]

No. Quite frankly, no. And I think it is time I tell you that this is actually the 100th episode.

[Kerry Washington]

God, what an honor. That's a big deal.

[Jake]

Thank you.

[Kerry Washington]

The honor is all congratulations.

[Jake]

Well, thank you. But the honor is all mine.

[Kerry Washington]

Like.

[Jake]

And before we begin.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes.

[Jake]

I got you a bottle of Dubilet.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my goodness. That's so cute.

[Jake]

I got you a bottle of Dublay. You do not have to drink it, but it's just for visual effects.

[Kerry Washington]

I can't believe you did that.

[Jake]

Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

I don't know if I even knew that that was a real wine.

[Jake]

So the Dubilet. The 94 Dubilet is not a real wine. Which is the wine you and Jake drink on the island while you're standing in the sun.

[Kerry Washington]

Of course.

[Jake]

But.

[Kerry Washington]

My God. Should I pour some? Will you drink some? I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna drink any, but will you? Okay, good.

[Jake]

Wait. I'm gonna switch out and.

[Kerry Washington]

And we'll just stand in these lights instead of in the sun. So I was just talking to my daughter last night because she's doing this project for school where she had to talk about the first time she was ever on a plane. And I told her it was when she was three months old and I was just coming back from maternity leave, and we flew. Flew to the Bahamas to film that episode of Scandal. And she was so tiny, and I had to bring her with me. I was freaking out because Shonda called me while I was on maternity leave and was like, you're gonna start the season in a bathing suit. And I was like, what? And. And. And. And that was it. That was my daughter's first time on a plane. Was we secretly flew to the Bahamas so that nobody would know where in the world Olivia Pope was. And we shot this episode in a day on this little, tiny, private island, and she was so itty bitty, and. And then we flew home.

[Jake]

Wait, so that was actually shot in the Bahamas?

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, we shot that on a secret little island in the Bahamas. We flew on a private jet so that the fans wouldn't know where Olivia Pope was. And we. We shot that episode with a skeleton crew. Like our. Our line producer, who's usually, like, the big head honcho in charge. She was, like, steaming the clothes and holding the props. And because we didn't bring a lot of people with us, it was like our dp, the actors, our director.

[Jake]

So a skeleton crew is like a.

[Kerry Washington]

Waste, tiny version of a. Of a crew.

[Jake]

Right, because that was. Right.

[Kerry Washington]

I guess. So you would know better than me.

[Jake]

Well, like, you know.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes. If I was having. If I had my season four, it was. Yes, that's right. Because I.

[Jake]

Because season three, you don't get on the plane.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh.

[Jake]

At the end of season three, you're like, put me on the plane.

[Kerry Washington]

Got it. Okay. Thank you.

[Jake]

Okay, so let me just collect myself.

[Kerry Washington]

So exciting.

[Jake]

So do you. Okay. So that was, like, the height of Scandal, though, because I remember buying season one, episode one on the. It was the free itunes episode of the week. The pilot.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jake]

Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

Wow.

[Jake]

And then I. The end of the season one was only seven episodes.

[Kerry Washington]

That's right.

[Jake]

And then you guys. Is it true you guys didn't know you were gonna get renewed or not?

[Kerry Washington]

I had no idea. I was in New Orleans shooting Django, and my producer on the film, Pilar Sivone, who's now my producing partner in Simpson street, she was watching the show, and they were, like, voraciously, the cast, the producers watching the show, and I was like, I don't know. Going to get another season. And then we aired. Yeah. So we aired while we were filming Django, and by the end of Django, I knew that I was coming back because that was the movie that never ended filming. By the end of filming Django, I knew we were coming back for another season. And there was this one weekend where I Had to do reshoots for Django in between shooting the second season of Scandal.

[Jake]

And did you know? Because I remember, all of a sudden, everybody. Because I went to. I. I went to school in New York City. Everybody in New York was watching Scandal.

[Kerry Washington]

And, like, where did you go to school, Calhoun?

[Jake]

You went to Spence?

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right across the park.

[Jake]

Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay. Amazing.

[Jake]

Great school. Where in New York did you grow up?

[Kerry Washington]

I grew up in the Bronx. I went to Spence, and I really? That's so funny. You know, I was already living out here at the time, actually. I think season three of Scandal is when I was like, oh, my God, I live in LA now. Because I had moved back to New York before getting Scandal.

[Jake]

Oh, really?

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah. I had moved back to New York to do a play on Broadway and was living on the east coast and really loving being back in New York. And then I read this script and was like, oh, my God, I love this so much. And I went back and did the pilot, and then we did those, you know, seven episodes. So you're like, I don't live here. But once we were in season three, I was like, oh, no, I live in LA now.

[Jake]

Right. Because those. Those initial seasons were long. Yeah, long.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah. 22, I think.

[Jake]

And you guys turn them out, too. Yeah. Like, it was like, one after another. Do you remember, though? Because I remember a Scandal being one of the first shows. Tgit. Thank God it's Thursday.

[Kerry Washington]

For those of you who didn't know what that.

[Jake]

It was Shonda Night on ABC night.

[Kerry Washington]

We went Gray's. Scandal had to get away. Yeah.

[Jake]

It was my night. And. But I remember Scandal being, like, the first show that took off on Twitter. Yeah, I remember, like, every. That was, like, the Twitter show.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes.

[Jake]

So do you remember a time in season two where you were like, not only are we getting a season three, but everybody is watching this.

[Kerry Washington]

I feel like the moment that became clear for me was I was sitting in OPA and. And we were doing. I was doing an interview with Oprah Winfrey for a show. She had that time on her network. I think it was called, like, Life Class or something like that. And she wanted to come to set for the interview, and she wanted to, like, be on the elevator and walk down the hallway, and then we sat at the conference room table together. And she said to me that the reason she started watching Scandal was because it's the only thing anybody was talking about on Thursday on Twitter. And I was like, oh, like, that was a turning point for me where I was like, oh, oh, oh. This is a moment we're in, like, a zeitgeisty cultural moment, right? Yeah. And it's interesting because appointment television was just disappearing because of DVR and. And Hulu. So people were starting to not watch shows when they first came on. So Twitter was actually how we remained appointment television because you could watch the show whenever you wanted, but you couldn't be in the conversation any other time but that time on Thursday. And you might get spoilers if you. You know, if you waited.

[Jake]

Well, you would. I remember I would, like, not go on the Internet. When Scandal would air, we would have.

[Kerry Washington]

To warn our directors, because we know we would shoot all week. But on Thursdays, you know, first we were on at 9, and then at 10 on Thursdays. If you were directing us at that time, it was impossible because we'd be doing a scene, but anytime the director would say, cut, we'd all be tweeting and, like, barely paying attention to the scene, because we were so committed to our audience and so committed to the. The gladiators that we just. We could not. Not be present for tg. So we used to say, like, can we just take an hour break? Like, can we move lunch to when the show is on? And they were like, no, we have to, like, follow the union rules about when to shoot. But we were always tweeting in between every take. I remember actually, like, praying, saying to my husband, like, I cannot go into labor on a Thursday. Like, I can't. I can't do it. Like, I can't. I can't do it to the show. I can't do it myself. Like, I will be tweeting all through labor. And he was like, oh, my God, no.

[Jake]

Like, because you're a gladiator.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Wait, so do you. Do you remember what, like, what was the most hectic episode on Twitter where you were like, holy shit. Like, it was just like. Like, the discourse was crazy, and, like, people were shook.

[Kerry Washington]

It was really fun to try to predict that. And now, you know, we have a show on Hulu called Reasonable Doubt. That is show run by Ramla Muhammad, who. I love Ramla so much. Ramla was a writer's assistant on the first season of Scandal, and then she rose up through the ranks. And then when I went to go do little fires everywhere, I brought her with me. And now Reasonable Doubt is her own show.

[Jake]

Oh, wow.

[Kerry Washington]

But she carries that Scandal culture with her in her head. And when she's writing episodes, she thinks about what are the moments that people will tweet about or will post about? Like, what are the memes? What are the gifts? Like, what are the shockable moments that will make people talk on social media? And she has that just so ingrained in her from the Scandal years. And it's brilliant because we used to sit around and guess when people would go crazy. I remember getting, like, when Fitz was shot, words out of my mouth. First of all, that was insane. I just. Like, we all knew that was going.

[Jake]

To be crazy because it was just. First of all, the episode's called Happy Birthday, Mr. President, if you're unfamiliar. No, like, I'm a gladiator. Like, I remember watching that in real time and, like, holding on to my couch and being like, what the just happened?

[Kerry Washington]

So crazy.

[Jake]

Anything can happen in Shondaland.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes.

[Jake]

So, like, you, we didn't know if he was gonna die or not.

[Kerry Washington]

So true. And also, that's what was going on in television in general at that time. Like, I remember right before or right around when we did our pilot, the first episode of Game of Thrones aired. And I remember when Sean Bean's character died on Game of Thrones, all television actors were like, oh, shit.

[Jake]

Right?

[Kerry Washington]

Like, anything's possible. You are never saved. Josh Molina in our cast, who played our Attorney General, he would always flip to the back of a script to see if he died at the end, at every table read. Cause he was like, I just need to know. I just need to know. But. But it was really exciting to see. You know, it's that thing about sometimes you don't know how much something means to you until you're gonna lose it. And so I think to see people's fear about Fitz being on the edge of his own mortality was really, really. I felt bad, but also, like, really. It was so juicy and good to watch the panic.

[Jake]

Also, just, like, Shonda knows how to, like, take something crazy and then make it even crazier.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes.

[Jake]

Like, when you got up on the press podium and told everyone that Fitz was fine.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

And I was like, wait, but he's in the hospital.

[Kerry Washington]

Which is lying.

[Jake]

I was like, wait, he's literally in the hospital? And who was that? Was Sally, the vice president at the time.

[Kerry Washington]

I. You would know better than me, but I think so.

[Jake]

I think it was Sally.

[Louise]

Yeah.

[Jake]

And are you guys. You're all still close? This guy.

[Kerry Washington]

It's pretty insane. I mean, I was just texting with Bellamy this morning. I know that, like, what. Katie and I are doing double dates with our husband in a week or two. Like, we. We are all very Close and very supportive of each other. And really, I think when you go through a rocket ship like that with someone, you just really. You have a different kind of trust, you know, because you've really survived something and you've committed to each other through a difficult time. And so on the other. I know it may sound weird to call it a difficult time because it was such a blessing, that show, but it just turned our lives upside down, and it was unknown. Maybe it was unknown, uncomfortable, more than was it. It was difficult because it was also amazing. But having lived through that change, it just made us all so much closer.

[Jake]

Right. What was the last day of set like?

[Kerry Washington]

The last day of set was surreal. I remember my parents came to town because they wanted to be there. My parents are and were. Were and are very close to the cast and crew and all of us. We never made this decision. Like, we didn't articulate this decision. But no one took their costume off that day. You know, at the end of the day when you're acting, you, like, take your costume off and you hang it up in your trailer and then you go home. But it was almost like, if I don't take my costume off, maybe it won't end.

[Jake]

Right.

[Kerry Washington]

And. And so we all stayed in our costume that day, and nobody went home. We just kept, like, collecting by the monitors until the very last shot of the night. And so I have video of, like, all of us, like, 40 people standing around the monitors watching the very last shot of the show and just, I think, being so filled with gratitude and awe for what we were given the opportunity to create together. It was really, really special. And we all went home in those clothes and kept them and. And kept each other in our hearts.

[Jake]

Do you remember what the last shot was? No.

[Kerry Washington]

I knew you were going to ask me that. I knew. I know I was in it. And we were in OPA because we were gathered around. So there was that office, you know, in opa, There was the. The office that was, like, not Huck's office, but after Huck's office, but before the conference room.

[Jake]

Over Steven's old office.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes, well done.

[Jake]

That. That Harrison and Abby fought over.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes, exactly.

[Jake]

And they said that the office behavior.

[Kerry Washington]

That's. Oh, my good lord.

[Jake]

No. Like.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, so that's it.

[Jake]

I can teach a crash course.

[Kerry Washington]

Whenever we were shooting in opa, if we weren't shooting in that office, that's where Video Village was. And Video Village is where you gather and watch the monitor so you know what's happening. And usually my dog at the time, Josie was on a couch in that office, and somebody was holding her, and we were watching the monitor. So that's where we gathered for the last shot. Oh, it was so, so special. And Shonda was there, of course. Spouses, parents, kids, dogs, everybody was there. It was really, really magical.

[Jake]

I am just. I've been dying to know, how did you guys memorize? I know, I know it sounds like a silly question. You all had so many monologues each episode.

[Kerry Washington]

So true. Like Joe Morton. Especially Joe Morton.

[Jake]

Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

And like, Bellamy had some beast Bellamy.

[Jake]

I was like, how are you? Yeah, what's going on?

[Kerry Washington]

I know she's incredible. She's a phenom.

[Jake]

But I was like, how are. I know it sounds silly. I feel like it's asking a dancer, how do you memorize a dance every day? But, like.

[Kerry Washington]

Which is also a good question, right? Yeah.

[Jake]

But, like, how did you. Would you go line by line? Like, how did you memorize? Like, were you. Would it be a little bit of improv? How did you do that?

[Kerry Washington]

So no improv aloud.

[Jake]

What?

[Kerry Washington]

No improv aloud at all. So Shonda has a few rules. She's an incredible collaborator. She's a wonderful leader. But one of the things she says is, I don't care how you say it, but you have to say what is written. So that is sometimes means we. There's something in a crew called a script supervisor. And they have a lot of jobs, but one of the jobs is to watch the words and to make sure that the actors are saying them. And sometimes our script supervisors would come in and say, you said, but. And it's supposed to be end. Like, it was real specific. Very specific. And I was really lucky because I had done so much theater. And when you're doing something like Shakespeare, like, if you don't get that right, like, the iambic pentameter is off. So you have to get that stuff word perfect. And I had done a play on Broadway with David Mamet, who's very similar. Like, every word has to be word perfect. And I really feel like working with Mamet because he directed the play that I did. It was called Race. It's where I met my husband backstage on Broadway. And that. That experience of working with Mamet and having to be so word specific night after night, I think really prepared me for Shondaland in a. But everybody has their own tricks. Somebody like Josh Molina, God bless him, I hate him for this, but he just has a photographic memory.

[Jake]

No way.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah. When he can look at it once or twice, and know it word perfect. It's disgusting. But it's also been really helpful for him because he's come up through, like, the West Wing World and Sports Night and other shows with other show writers where people are really, really specific. For me, I had this system where I would do two things that helped me the most. One is I recorded all my lines. So I would read through every scene between three and five times. My assistant, and record them, and then I would listen to it. Like, I would listen to it while I did the dishes, while I was walking the dog, while I was driving to work, while I was in the shower. Like, I would just be listening to my lines all the time. And the other thing I would do is write them out, because writing them out helped me be super conscious and aware of every word. I've heard another trick after the Scandal years that I've used, which I really, really love, which is to actually memorize the verbs. Oh, it's so interesting because the verbs actually tell you what's happening, right? Like, you're gonna remember the names of people, you're gonna remember the places, but it's like, did they go or did they come? Did they cry or did they laugh? Did they. Like, the verbs is the. The verb is what people are actually doing. So that is a great through line to help you. So I've done that since then. But you know who taught me the listening to your lines. This is so funny. I was at a dinner in New York after I got the role, but hadn't started shooting the pilot. And I was with Rosie Perez, who had done a lot of Broadway. And. Oh, this. Actually, she. This was before Scandal. This was when I was about to do my first Broadway play and I was trying to memorize Mamet. And Rosie Perez had done a play that I love called Frankie and Johnny at the Clair de Lune on Broadway. And she taught me that trick of listening to the lines.

[Jake]

And that was very helpful.

[Kerry Washington]

That really worked more than anything. But I would always look like I was crazy because I'd be walking my dog in the morning talking to myself, right? Like, yeah, that was how I did it.

[Jake]

And you guys shot in L. A?

[Kerry Washington]

We did. And we didn't go to DC until the finale of the show.

[Jake]

What?

[Kerry Washington]

All of the DC that you see is green screen CGI until the very final episode of our show. Shonda flew the whole cast to D.C. and we actually went, like, after hours to the African American Museum of History and Culture, and we had an incredible time. I went to college in D.C. so I got everybody drunk, and we drove around in chauffeured cars to all the monuments at night, because the monuments at night are phenomenal. And. Yeah. And we shot those scenes in the finale of the show, the last two episodes of the show in dc.

[Jake]

Wow. When you and Cyrus, like, sit on that. What is that monument that you and Cyrus sit on in. In your final conversation?

[Kerry Washington]

It's the Lincoln, I think. Yeah.

[Jake]

And that was green screen.

[Kerry Washington]

That was green screen. We were actually on a stage for that one with steps in a green screen behind us. But for a lot of, like, the Rose Garden stuff, we were in Pasadena and at the. What is those. Those gardens in Pasadena. Called those.

[Jake]

Huntington Library.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, so we were at Huntington Library for a lot of that. We shot downtown la, like, outside the Museum of Natural History, downtown USC area. For some of the Rose Garden stuff. Yeah. Downtown L. A was D.C. like, when I'm coming out of my apartment building and all the reporters are there. What? That's the end of, what, Season two, too. Thank you. That's in Koreatown.

[Jake]

What? Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

An apartment building in Koreatown.

[Jake]

What do you think, like, the most iconic scene is, besides, like, if you want me, earn me.

[Kerry Washington]

If you want me, earn me is good?

[Jake]

Of course.

[Kerry Washington]

I mean, I think the very first time in the pilot, when she hears sweet baby.

[Jake]

No.

[Kerry Washington]

Extraordinary. That was such good writing. Because for me, when I was reading this pilot, I was like, oh, this is good, this is good, this is good. And then I got to this sweet baby moment, and literally, through my script, across the room was like, oh, my God. Like, we're so. Like, I'm in. Like, I have to do this show. What do I have to do to be in the show? I want to be this woman. This was written for me. I have to do this.

[Jake]

It is the greatest moment. I'm pretty sure you're in the hospital with Quinn. And she goes. She keeps going on and on about how he called her sweet baby.

[Kerry Washington]

And then it goes into slow motion.

[Jake]

You said. What'd you say? She said she got her a dog. You said, no, no, no, no. What did you say? She said, sweet baby. And you don't even say anything to Quinn. You just turn around and walk out.

[Kerry Washington]

Do you want to hear something fun?

[Jake]

Please.

[Kerry Washington]

So, because that was our pilot, we didn't have sets of our own yet, and, you know, we weren't going to pay for sets of our own. So the Oval Office we got from some movie. I'm trying to remember, there was a movie that had just had a White House Scene, and we just borrowed their sets. All of the hospital scenes in the pilot of Scandal were shot on Grey's Anatomy sets. No way. So that scene was on a Grey's Anatomy set.

[Jake]

What a good omen.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, it's true.

[Jake]

What was it like when you guys did the crossover with how to Get Away?

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my God. That was so cool. So that episode was also the Scandal one, not the how to Get Away one. The Scandal crossover was written by Ramla Muhammad, that writer, Reasonable Doubt. So she's the responsible for that whole, like, you know, scene in the beauty salon where I'm like, let me reintroduce my.

[Jake]

Myself.

[Kerry Washington]

That whole Jay Z moment, which also is. So that's. That's why we have a show called Reasonable Doubt, because she's a small Jay Z fan. So I. I loved every moment of the crossover because, you know, in this business, we talk a lot about kind of how women are often put in silos or pitted against each other or made to feel like competition. And we shared. We graciously shared tgits. We celebrated it together. We did promos together, all three of us. But that moment, to really be like sisters and create those episodes together was so, so special. And to get to do it with Ms. Cicely Tyson, who, like, neither Viola or I would have the careers we have today if it wasn't for Cicely Tyson and her, like, walking that path ahead of us and really leading the way. So it was really special to be able to work together and to kind of help each other shine. Right.

[Jake]

You know, did you take any, like, lessons from the show? Like, would you ever think in your real life, okay, what would Olivia Pope do?

[Kerry Washington]

Yes. I still think at times, what would Olivia Pope do? And I. So Olivia Pope was inspired by a real woman, Judy Smith. And I. I do still have a relationship with Judy Smith, and I call Judy at times, and I'm often asked to refer people to Judy.

[Jake]

Judy's still working.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes.

[Jake]

Okay. I was about to have a lot of questions about Judy.

[Kerry Washington]

So Judy's amazing. And I. Yeah, so ask me your question about Judy, and then I'll. So.

[Jake]

No, no, no. Please, you first. Please, you first.

[Kerry Washington]

I'll forget. What are your questions about Judy? She's amazing.

[Jake]

Like, is her life. Is she like. Yeah. Like, it's pretty crazy like this.

[Kerry Washington]

So she's always quick to tell people that the character is inspired by her but not based on her, because she's like, I never slept with the president.

[Jake]

Right.

[Kerry Washington]

So Judy has a very. Like her is not messy. That's the biggest difference between Judy and Olivia, is that her personal life is lovely and sane. And, you know, Olivia Pope is a little bit of a mess, which is one of the things we love about her.

[Jake]

Love.

[Kerry Washington]

So. But Judy is. Yeah. I mean, she has told me such insane stories about situations that she's been in with CEOs, with politicians, with people in the fashion business, in the music business. Yeah.

[Jake]

And is it like, does it ever, like, is it ever hard? Because often we see, like, you know, Olivia, it toe the line, like, with her morals. And, like, I feel like that's like, a common motif in scandal, is like, she's gonna be able to fix it, but at, like, what cost?

[Kerry Washington]

Yes.

[Jake]

Does Judy ever feel that way as well?

[Kerry Washington]

I will say she taught me a lot about learning to be open minded about perspective and to really challenge myself, to come from a place of less judgment and more curiosity, which is something I'm still always trying to do in my life and at work. But to really, like, not assume that you know what's best and who's best, but to be open to each person's humanity and that a person isn't. A person is not defined by their worst choice on their worst day. Right. And I think that's also a big lesson that we're trying to learn when we talk about criminal justice reform, is that, like, people make mistakes and people should be allowed second chances to the extent that we feel like they can rehabilitate and grow. And so Judy really taught me a lot about that. About, like, having the courage to lean into gray areas and not feel like you have to sit from your safe perch of, like, I know what's good and I know what's right. That life is often more complicated than we give it permission to be.

[Jake]

That's beautiful.

[Kerry Washington]

It can be. I think also sometimes, like, shit is just fucked up and you need to call it right. Like, yeah, sometimes, like, you just need to be like, no, that's wrong. Like, certain things are wrong and bad. And I think for me, it was hard when I felt like I didn't agree at times with Olivia, but I feel like for the most part, she really did always try to make choices, even though they were complicated ones, that were for the betterment. Betterment of humanity and for democracy.

[Jake]

You know what I've been thinking about? That is so. Well, it's not funny, but it's crazy. I'm like, I would rather have the Fitzgerald Grant government.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my God.

[Jake]

Than the one we have now, without question. And there was B613. There was, like. It was like a dynasty somehow. Melly was president. I'm like. It was, like, incredibly corrupt, but I would literally, like, choose it any day over today. And what. What was that like when. Because scandal was still airing when Trump became elected. What was. How did you guys deal with that in your story of scandal?

[Kerry Washington]

I mean, I feel like that's more of a question for the writers room, but as I was listening to you, I was thinking there's a little part of me that just hopes that. I mean, first of all, thank you. Because I feel like you have single handedly brought scandal back into the zeitgeist. Like, you have been our biggest champion, our biggest gladiator. And I'm so grateful that so many people are enjoying the show because of your encouragement and your enthusiasm and your devotion and your love. And I'm so, so grateful. And I feel like one of my dreams, one of my wishes is that people who are watching the show.

[Jake]

Fall.

[Kerry Washington]

In love not just with Olivia Pope and with Olitz or O. Lake, whichever way you go, but that they become a little bit seduced with the idea that we could have a government where your voice matters, that they become a little bit interested in the idea that these people make decisions that really do impact your life, that the people that we put in office matter because they do have an extraordinary amount of power and say. And I guess, you know, for me, I feel like in the. I tell this story a lot, but in. After the election in 2016, Olivia Pope was trending because people that next morning were like, olivia Pope has to fix this. Oh, no. Olivia, save us. Right? And I was like, oh, that's so funny. And then I was like, I don't know that this is okay, because she is an imaginary character on television. And the reality is every single one of those people who was tweeting that they have so much more power than Olivia Pope because they're real. Right? Like, you're real. You can vote. You can register to vote. You can volunteer for a politician that you believe in. You can donate to a cause that matters to you. You can encourage your cousin or your sister or your mother or your father to vote or to understand an issue more deeply, to be more open minded and more inclusive. You have more power than these imaginary characters on television. And I want people to not just fall in love with Olivia Pope, but in the way you have. Like, I want people to embrace their inner Olivia Pope. Like, I want people to understand that you. You. Each of us has the power to be the Olivia Pope in the story of our lives and our communities and our families. And to answer your question before, like, if anything, I do sometimes ask, what would Olivia Pope do? But more often, I'm grateful because she taught me that, like, she playing Olivia Pope taught me that. That I could have more agency and more voice in my own life, that I could not be afraid to step into power and to understand the places and the spaces where I had influence and to not be afraid to use it and to be that. To wear the white hat in my own life, you know, wearing the white hat.

[Jake]

Well, you are so active in getting people out to vote. When did you get involved with that? Like, was it during Scandal? Was it after?

[Kerry Washington]

So I'll tell you a really funny story. There's this great organization called the Creative Coalition that has for many, many years fought for increased funding for the arts and humanities. Are just protecting funding for the arts and humanities. And way before Scandal, Tony Goldwyn was a co president of that organization. And I met Tony doing that work. We used to walk up and down the halls of Congress talking to representatives and senators about the importance of museums and the importance of after school programs for the arts and the importance of literature and really, like, arts and humanities. So we would be like, in these meetings with politicians, years before scandal, walking around D.C. together. So Shonda thought of Tony for the role of the president on the show, because Tony Goldwyn actually directed one of the very early episodes of Grey's Anatomy.

[Jake]

He directs?

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, he directed a Scandal. Several episodes. What? Yes. Now you'll have to go back and see that. So also. No, that's. I'm so happy. I can actually tell you something. I feel like you've just been teaching me about my show.

[Jake]

I know, I know.

[Kerry Washington]

So he. I'll tell you something else about that. But. So when Shonda was thinking, like, what actors have, like, a level of gravitas, a level of, like, executive power, like, who do you believe could be in charge? She thought of Tony because she mostly knew Tony as a director and running those spaces. And so she knew he was a great actor, but she thought of. She thinks of him as somebody who's in charge. So she offered the role to him based on their relationship from him directing at Gray's, which is amazing. And I knew him from our D.C. advocacy days, so kind of getting in a room and doing all this political talk together was not new for us.

[Jake]

So you guys have been friends forever.

[Kerry Washington]

For a really long time.

[Jake]

And did you know, like, Shonda before as well?

[Kerry Washington]

I didn't I never. I had not met Shonda. I was a huge fan of Shonda's. And when I read the script, I told you I read it, and I was like, oh, my God. I feel like this was written for me. The tricky thing was that there were, like, 40 other actresses who felt the same way, who were like, I need this role. It was written for me. And so it was a highly coveted role in Hollywood. Everybody I knew was reading for it. I mean, from, like, age 16 to 60, there were so many people who wanted this role, who were fighting for this role. And of course I was gonna audition. But in Hollywood, there's this whole thing about, like, if you audition, it means you have less power. So a meeting is fancier than an audition. So how it was set up was I was gonna meet her first, and then if the meeting went well, I agreed I would read. I mean, I didn't care about any of this. I was like, I'll run craft service. This is the most amazing show ever. But I. But I was like, I'll do what my team says to do. So I went and met with her, and I remember getting off the elevator and the wal. Shonda land. And I was like, oh, I don't know if this is gonna go well like this. I don't know if I want to, like, move into somebody's land. Like, it just felt so extra to me. And then I walked in, and I met her, and I think within two minutes, I was like, I'm obsessed with this woman. Her brain, her charm. She was so intense. But so I felt like I. I like this person, and I had so much immediate respect for her. And then I. Then I was in trouble because, like, I was like, now I really want this role. And then I read for it, and I. It came down to, like, four of us tested for the network, which is like, you make your deal, and you go in and you read for the. For the network and the casting director, Linda Lowey, who is Jeff Perry's wife. That was our casting director.

[Jake]

No way.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes. Yes. And then, yeah, I remember I was sitting at a restaurant in Manhattan beach with my then boyfriend, now husband, and I got the call that restaurant no longer exists, but it was a Mexican restaurant called Mucho. And I got the call that it was mine, and I couldn't believe it. I was beyond myself.

[Jake]

Do you remember that final audition you did and what you read?

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, of course. We did two scenes. We did the scene where I helped Stephen pick out the ring, that Huck brings the rings, and Then we did the bench.

[Jake]

Be normal.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, Be normal. Oh, my God. I never would have remembered that.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

And then. And then the bench scene where I say to the intern, like, get a. Get a new car. Get a house. Like, all the things where I read her right before it's handled. That scene. Yeah.

[Jake]

Speaking of Steven, I remember he. He wasn't. He didn't come back for season two. Where do you. I know you. You're not Shonda. You're not in the writers room. But, like, in your dream world, like, where do you think he would have gone in Scandal world if he had stayed?

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, wow. Well, I love where he wound up, to be honest with you. I mean, I never expected that.

[Jake]

I forget it every time.

[Kerry Washington]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry to spoil your third time watching, but when he appeared in that episode and saved Olivia's life, I just thought, well, this is the way that you heal this moment.

[Jake]

It was perfect.

[Kerry Washington]

Give him closure. Give us closure. Like, I just. I loved every moment of that, and it really did allow me, he and I, to reconnect and have some peace about it. It just. It was really, really so special. I love that. I love that the writers did that for the show, for him, for us, for the fans. It was really such a great surprise.

[Jake]

I remember it was. That was. Besides. Happy birthday, Mr. President. I remember just being like. And that, for some reason, like, really killed me inside, because it makes you think. I think it was season three, four, and it makes you think, like. Like. And imagine if he was in that office this whole time.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah. Because he's such a great guy and such an extraordinary actor. And it is fun to think. I would love to see some fan fiction on that.

[Jake]

Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

I have to say, another episode that. Okay, great. Standing by. Another. Speaking of departures, another episode that kills me that I can never rewatch is the Harrison funeral.

[Jake]

Oh, I mean. I mean, that was just. And, like, no one shows up. It's devastating.

[Kerry Washington]

It's devastating.

[Jake]

I mean, because that's. When OPA just falls. You go to the Bahamas, Harrison's dies, and it's. How do we even get back there? And Quinn. God bless her.

[Kerry Washington]

God bless her.

[Jake]

That's everyone back. And she was the last person added to opa.

[Kerry Washington]

I know. Who is Quinn Perkins. Yes. Yes.

[Jake]

Besides, who's a great addition to opa.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

We love the most morals out of anyone.

[Kerry Washington]

It's so true. And I love that he comes out of that, like, activism. That. That lawn chair episode was so extraordinary also. And, you know, it was interesting for me, I always think about that Lawn chair episode, and that's where we met Marcus, and I love that he joined our show. That episode was so important because I think for the first few seasons, it was so powerful that there hadn't been a black woman as the lead of a network drama in almost 40 years. And so in many ways, we stayed away from race. We would sort of dip our toe into talking about race, but we sort of just. The fact that Olivia Pope existed and sort of walked with her blackness in the worlds that she was in was enough of a statement. But as the show went on, I think the writers felt more and more emboldened and encouraged to explore some of Olivia's position on race and politics and injustice. And so I think the lawn chair is also a really, really special episode.

[Jake]

I remember. I remember that episode also as, like, one of the moments where, because up until then, Olivia would kind of do whatever the job required.

[Kerry Washington]

That's right.

[Jake]

And I remember in that episode, you some. It switched. Yeah, switched.

[Kerry Washington]

And I choose morality over professionalism.

[Jake]

Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

Just. It was a real moment.

[Jake]

Do you remember the reaction to that episode?

[Kerry Washington]

I remember people being really moved and. And shocked and. And very moved. You know, we were in a moment, as a country where those conversations were bubbling. And so I think people were. People were always really delighted whenever we stepped into territory that was in any way taboo. And I do remember those moments. I remember. I remember those moments as our gladiators, our audience, feeling permission to be more honest, more bold, more able to communicate in truth. You know, it's like I had one of the. I think the first on camera abortion on television, on network television.

[Jake]

Wait, that was one of the first.

[Kerry Washington]

I think it was the first. I think characters have had abortions, but to actually watch a character in that moment had never happened before. And I remember we. We had our table read on a Thursday that day, and Shonda had been going back and forth with the powers that be at ABC about whether or not they were gonna allow that scene in the episode. And she was like, I'm not gonna allow the episode to be aired without that scene. So we were all like, I don't know if Scandal's coming on tonight. Like, kind of freaked out. But she was so steadfast about, like, when she. She didn't want to shy away from things that were uncomfortable for people or controversial because she felt like that's who this character is. That's who this woman is.

[Jake]

You guys. Tonight's episode of Therapists is sponsored by the one and only Popsicle. For the past, like, I want to say, maybe year or two years, I've been doing popsicle reveals with my best friends, and I infamously only like the cherry flavor and I oftentimes don't get it. So Popsicle gave me an all cherry Jake Shane Popsicle box. It was quite literally one of the greatest things that has ever happened to me. And we did a giveaway where 500 people won the all cherry box. Unfortunately, now the giveaway has closed. But it was so exciting. You guys loved it. I loved it, My friends loved it. Everyone loved it. It was so fun. So I'm so excited that we are partnering with Popsicle for Therapists because it is just infiltrating every part of my life as it should. Popsicle ice pops are so nostalgic for me. I think that's why I loved doing the popsicle reveal so much because I was, like, reminded that I had free will as an adult and I could just order popsicles and have them whenever I wanted. You know, I used to have to ask when I was a kid. So we are gonna do a fun little game today on Therapist. We are gonna do Smash or Pass Popsicle Edition with some of your favorite nostalgic childhood items. I'm gonna hold up an orange if it's a pass and obviously a cherry if it's a smash, which I will pull with 100 success rate from my Jake Shane all cherry box. Keep in mind I'm being dramatic. I don't hate the other flavors, but I obviously just love cherry the best. Okay, you guys, I'm obviously going hands free for this game because I'm double fisting popsicles. So Louise is gonna read some of the childhood nostalgic items and I'm gonna smash or pass.

[Louise]

Okay, school field day.

[Jake]

It depends what age. I would say ages under 12. Smash. Ages over 12. Pass.

[Kerry Washington]

I don't care.

[Jake]

Unless it's overnight. If it's overnight, pass. Or smash.

[Louise]

The used book fair.

[Jake]

The used book fair. Smash. That is the first time I ever stole something. I stole an entire thing of book fair CDs and video games for my computer from the Scholastic used book sale.

[Louise]

After school sports.

[Jake]

After school sports. Pass. Unless it's volleyball. Smash.

[Louise]

Trading cards at recess.

[Jake]

Trading cards at recess. Pass. Sorry, I don't care.

[Louise]

Classroom pizza parties.

[Jake]

Classroom pizza parties. Pass. I hate pizza.

[Louise]

Glow in the dark, stars on your ceiling.

[Jake]

Glow in the dark, stars on your ceiling. Smash. I think those are fun. Smash. Because I've been quite negative.

[Louise]

Instant messaging.

[Jake]

Instant messaging Smash. I love AIM and I chat.

[Louise]

Do you want to give, like, a story about it?

[Kerry Washington]

No.

[Louise]

Okay, awesome. Collecting stuffed animals or keychains?

[Jake]

Okay. Collecting stuffed animals. I still do that. So smash.

[Louise]

Summer sleepovers.

[Jake]

Summer sleepovers. Smash.

[Louise]

Okay, the last one is going to.

[Jake]

Be I'm on the edge of my seat and my pop Popsicle.

[Louise]

The last one's going to be first with first flip phone.

[Jake]

First flip phone smash. Unless everybody else had a touch screen phone. Pass. Okay, I gave you my hot or cold takes. What throwbacks would you add to the list? And is it a cherry or an orange for you? Thank you again, popsicle, for sponsoring tonight's episode. I can't express what you mean to me. Do you mind if we play, like, a little scandal game really quickly?

[Kerry Washington]

Of course not.

[Jake]

Okay, so I wanted to play Kiss, marry, kill with scandal motif.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my God.

[Jake]

So, okay, there's three Kiss, Mary, Kill, Jam in Vermont.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay.

[Jake]

Wearing the white hat.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, God. Okay.

[Jake]

You can't take command.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh. Oh, kiss me. Kill. I think the white hat is Kiss, the jam is Mary, and you can't. You're so cute. And you take it. You can't take command would be kill.

[Jake]

God.

[Kerry Washington]

I mean, Mr. Pope. So do you know the story? Okay, so Joe Morton is one of my acting heroes. He did an independent film by John Sayles when I was a kid, really young, called Brother from Another Planet. It was an independent movie. Nobody saw it, but my parents were like art people, art house, movie kind of people. And that movie was on in my house. And I loved Joe Morton. And they. We knew him from other stuff, from theater. So he's literally the first guest star that I called home about was like, mom and dad. You're never gonna believe who's on the show. But I did not know who Joe Morton was playing on the show. I did not know he knew because he had an offer at the time to also do a play on Broadway. And Shonda was like, I need you to come play this character. And he was like, I don't know. See who this character is or where they're going. And she said, you're going to be Olivia's dad. But no one can know, not even Carrie. So Joe Morton shows up at our table, read. I'm freaking out. I call home. I'm like, you guys, Joe Morton's on the show. This is so cool. And I never get any scenes with him. All his scenes are these cryptic scenes with Cyrus Bean on a bench or Jake on a bench, like, having these weird rendezvous conversations. And I'm like, I hope we get a scene together one day, he's like, so literally, it's not till I read that episode where I get at the table read with my cast, where I get in the car and he's sitting there, and I look up and say, dad, question mark. That was the moment that I found out that Joe Morton was playing my father.

[Jake]

Was everyone, like, gasping?

[Kerry Washington]

Everyone was freaking out.

[Jake]

Oh, my God.

[Kerry Washington]

And we did a show. We did a live table read at the Paley center before the episode aired, or maybe the night that the episode aired, where we read that episode out loud. And I remember because, oh, my God, there were so many amazing, amazing people in the audience, but one of them was Debbie Allen, who directed episodes of Scandal and who actually choreographed the dance sequence in the episode that I directed. But everybody, when we got to that line at the Paley center, went crazy. Like, people were jumping out of their seats, like, throwing stuff. And we also didn't know. Like, even though at that point I knew he was my dad, we went to Shonda, and we were like, well, what's our relationship like? And she was like, we kind of haven't figured it out. So I. When we shot the end of that episode, I said, Dad, 150 different ways. We have me being like, dad, dad, dad. Yeah, like, every version of dad, because we were like, we don't know where it's going. So that was really exciting. And then I was like, oh, I think I'm gonna have some scenes with him. And then I got to just spend the next few seasons working opposite one of my acting heroes and learning from him every single day.

[Jake]

What do you remember what you learned from him?

[Kerry Washington]

I mean, one of the greatest things I learned from Joe was to not be afraid of your anger. And there's also a real elegance to the way that he works. It taught me a lot about where Olivia Pope comes from, but it really taught me about, like, just what elegance looks like, what it sounds like, you know, because no matter what emotion he had, he never left his elegance behind.

[Jake]

Right?

[Kerry Washington]

So beautiful. He.

[Jake]

He had some of the greatest monologues in that show.

[Kerry Washington]

Greatest, Greatest.

[Jake]

But what'd he say? Come hell or high water? And to be clear, I am the hell and the high water.

[Kerry Washington]

Well done.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

I mean, he said that thing that black families have been saying to black kids forever of you have to be twice as good to get half as much. And people were freaking out on the Internet because that's, like, people. Something that, like, only black people said to each other. And he just, like, put out on blast into the culture, which was so incredible. Yeah. He had so many amazing. He taught her everything about wine. You know, he's. It was really fun to get all that back and that relationship. And, you know, I wrote in my own memoir, Thicker than Water, that I've always had a really complicated relationship with my dad. And I think it was really powerful for me. I didn't even know at the time. Like, I have all these notes in the margins of my scripts being like, boy, what. What am I working through? Because I really believe characters come into your life to teach you things. And so in the scenes with Joe, I was always like, what am I working like? What is the dad stuff that I'm working through? I can't really put my finger on it. So it's so interesting to me that after show ended, the kind of world of me discovering more about my relationship with my dad not being my biological father and all of that. That. That, like, unfolded after the show ended.

[Jake]

That all unfolded after.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, right after we wrapped. Yeah.

[Jake]

Do you mind if I ask you about.

[Kerry Washington]

No, please do. Yeah.

[Jake]

Okay.

[Kerry Washington]

Can you imagine? I wrote a whole book about it. I'm like, I'm not taking questions. No. I mean, there's.

[Jake]

You know what? Like, sometimes people want to just put stuff out there.

[Kerry Washington]

That's true. And that's you asking. No, no, no. You can. I feel like you can ask me anything.

[Jake]

Well, my God, I love you. You found out about that through a show, right?

[Kerry Washington]

Yes. Another show.

[Jake]

Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

I was going. I had. I was friends with Skip Gates, who is a professor at Harvard who has this show, finding your roots on pbs, where they research people's ancestry. And I had always wanted to be on the show, but I never had time because we were always shooting, we were always filming. And when I wasn't filming Scandal, I was either making a movie or getting married or having a baby. Like, that's what all my off seasons were. And when scan. He read in, I don't know, he read online somewhere that it was going to be scandals, final season. And he called me and was like, you can finally be on the show. Will you come do it? I said, absolutely. I was so excited because I just knew that my parents were going to be thrilled to find out more about who they were and who I am. And. And so I. I told my parents that I was going to be doing finding your roots. And my mom was like, oh, that's good. And I was like, that didn't sound authentic. And my dad. Dad basically started having panic attacks, and I was like, what's happening? And so I actually. I was like, you know what, dad? Maybe you should talk to Skip Gates, because you guys are kind of of a similar generation and, you know, kind of older black men. Like, maybe he can help you navigate whatever fears or concerns you're having. And so my parents actually told Skip before they told me. My mom was like, hey, let's just say, hypothetically speaking, that Carrie. We used a sperm donor to have Carrie. Is that something that would show up on the show? And Skip was like, 150% and you should tell her. And they were like, we can't. We can't tell her. But he helped convince them to tell me.

[Jake]

And how did you initially, like, take that news?

[Kerry Washington]

I would say I was talking about it with my younger daughter recently. I was telling her. I think I've had all the feelings about it. Like, any feeling you could possibly have on, like, a chart of feelings that they have at school. Like, I have had those feelings about this. Initially, I think I was shocked, and then, really, weirdly, I was, like, relieved, because I always knew that there was something. It's like that. The Princess and the pea thing, you know, at the danger of referring to myself as a princess, like, I always, like, knew that there was. Was something off in the relationship in our family, but I couldn't put my finger on it. So to get that news was like, oh, okay, right now maybe we can start being, like, real in this family.

[Jake]

And did you notice, like, a change in your relationship with your dad? Like a. Like a lighter weight was. A weight was lifted off?

[Kerry Washington]

I would say with my mom, things changed immediately because my mom and I had always had this secret between us that was really, in many ways, protecting my dad. And so we, like, immediately fell into a new kind of intimacy and lightness. And it was as if I sort of talk about it in the book, as if, like, a veil got lifted between us. For my dad, it was a little more complicated because he. He, like, really didn't want to talk about it or deal with it. He kind of didn't want it to be true and didn't want to acknowledge it publicly and just, like, wanted to ignore it completely, which I was like, we're not doing that. Right? So it was. It had its challenges, for sure, moving forward.

[Jake]

And what was it like writing the book?

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, writing the book was really helpful because I really feel like I wrote the book for myself, to make sense of all this, to kind of go back through my life with this new framework and understand myself and My family more clearly. Like, somebody gave me a key to unlock my family, and now I wanted to go back in and sort it through. So the book was really helpful and really healing. And, I mean, in many ways, and so many people have said this to me. My dad is the hero of my book. You know, he's. He is the guy who, like, despite what biology says, he's my dad. He's always been my dad, and he loves me so hard. He's never wanted to entertain any thought other than that. And I'm so lucky that I had people in my life who loved me so much that they, like, not just prayed and hoped for me, but, like, did something. I mean, when I was born, it wasn't like, today we both have so many friends who use sperm donors who, like, go and look through a binder and, like, pick out what color eyes the donor has and where they went to college. And, like, this was the wild West. Like, this was. My mom doesn't know anything about the donor. She was like, I just want him to be black and healthy. And really, she says, you know, I. They wanted him to be black just so that nobody knew that my dad wasn't. My dad wasn't my biological father, but it was the Wild West. She. You know, she just, like, went to an office when they said there was sperm there, and that was it. She didn't know where it came from. She didn't know anything. So it was. It was. It was really great for us as a family for me to write the book and then for us as a family to kind of get to live in that truth. And my dad is in such a different place about it now. Now. Wow. Yeah.

[Jake]

Congratulations. I feel like you've also helped so many people in so many families.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, thanks.

[Jake]

It's true. Like, you know, sharing your story like that, like, definitely makes it so much less taboo.

[Kerry Washington]

But I think it's funny. It's like I had spent so much of my life dedicating myself to being these other characters, and I think one of the reasons why acting was something that I gravitated towards is because I was looking for myself. I was looking for the answer to that question of, who am I? And it would be like, am I this person? Am I Chenille from Save the Last Dance? Well, a little bit, but not fully. Am I Olivia Popal? A little bit, but not fully. And it was almost like this character and this show was so groundbreaking and just changed and shifted history and culture so much that it was finally, like, when this was over, I had the courage to really get the information of who I was.

[Jake]

Right.

[Kerry Washington]

It was wild. It was like, okay, you've now, like, stop looking for your. For yourself in these other people. I think also because I had been her for so long that it was when that show ended, I really was ready to re examine and ask myself, who am I now? So there was, like, this space in my life for taking on a new character, and that new character was me. It was like, now I think I'm ready to be number one on the call sheet of my life, because she had taught, really, Olivia Pope taught me what it. She taught me that I was capable of being the lead, of having my name on that door, you know, of like. Like being the center of the story. And so now I was ready to be the center of the story of my real life.

[Jake]

Right. And what was it like saying goodbye to Olivia Pope?

[Kerry Washington]

You know, I was ready. I don't. I know. I feel like that's often not people. What people want me to say, but I was really ready. Remember, Shonda came to me, and she was starting to feel ready, and she was like, you know, I kind of. I either have, like, one more longer season or, like, two more shorter seasons. And we talked about it, and it felt like the two more shorter seasons would be better for fans, better for us, better for everybody to be able to say goodbye. And it felt like it was time. It felt like we had told all the story we could tell with her, and I wanted to go out before people, before other people were done with her, so I was ready. But I definitely missed her. And. And I felt like I always will feel so grateful to her. Like, she gave me so much. I mean, she gave me my career. She gave me my production company. In my scandal years is when I learned so much about what it means to be part of a family. And I mean that in both ways. Like, I had never been part of a project that went on for eight years. Right? Like, so to be in a. In a creative family in that way, but also in those years and the stability of that show is when I got married and started having children. And so I really. I just learned so much in that time. I became a producer in that time. I made some of the best friends in my life in that time. I. I learned how to hire people, how to fire people. I learned how to. You know, there was just so. There was so much that I. That I learned and that she gave me that I'll just forever be so grateful.

[Jake]

I mean, it is literally My comfort show. I've seen it three times. I watched it during COVID I watched it while it was live on television. And then I was with my friend, and we were going through Netflix the other day, and we were like, oh, and Scandal, obviously. And he was like, I've never seen Scandal. And I was like, okay, well, if we're gonna do this, we are doing it.

[Kerry Washington]

Like, I get jealous sometimes when people haven't seen shows that I love. I get jealous because I'm like, oh, my God. God. Like, you get to live through that for the first time. Like, when people tell me they haven't seen Game of Thrones or even just more recently. Like, I love the Penguin. When people tell me they haven't seen.

[Jake]

Penguin, I've seen it.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my God.

[Jake]

I know.

[Kerry Washington]

So good.

[Jake]

She just won for it, right?

[Kerry Washington]

And she so deserved. So incredible. So, so good. Yeah. Like, I. I get really, like, excited for people when they haven't seen shows that I love because I'm like, oh, you are about to get on a ride.

[Jake]

Oh, do you. What do you. What are you watching right now?

[Kerry Washington]

What am I watching right now? I was late to the pit, but just finished and am obsessed.

[Jake]

Okay.

[Kerry Washington]

I can't wait.

[Jake]

Episodes in, and then I started my Scandal rewatch.

[Kerry Washington]

No, no, no. There's room for both. You must. You must come back.

[Jake]

But I'm, like, an employee right now. Seriously. Like, I'm like, do you promise me.

[Kerry Washington]

You'Ll go back to the pit?

[Jake]

I promise I will go back to it. But, like, right now, like, I am, like, hourly pay. I'm paid hourly at OPI. I am clocked in every sing from 9 to 12. Like, I. Oh, my God. Unfortunately, like, I have a job. So, like.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay, well, when that's done. When that gig is done. Yes, please. It's really, like, the Pit is fantastic. It's so, so, so, so good. Yeah. That's a show I love. I love the studio. I thought that was great.

[Jake]

Still need to see.

[Kerry Washington]

So fun. So fun. So I feel bad. I feel like I'm. I'm getting you behind on the things that you watch.

[Jake]

You're getting me. Like, I need. I. Okay. I need to watch this, and I need to watch this.

[Kerry Washington]

It's lined up. You'll get to it.

[Jake]

Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay, good.

[Jake]

Yes. Before we finish our Scandal talk, cuz I feel like I. I have to ask you about your new projects as well.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes. Thank you. You're so sweet.

[Jake]

Do you. Who do you believe was better to Olivia Pope? Oh, Jake or Fitz? Because rewatching this as a 20 time.

[Kerry Washington]

Tell me, tell me, tell me.

[Jake]

As a 25 year old, obviously when I rewatched it when I was 20, I was like.

[Kerry Washington]

Like, literally, he's magic.

[Jake]

And then I'm like, wait, why are you like actually a horrible gas? You're horrible. He literally like, horrible. Like, I'm like, wait, you are the biggest gaslighter I've ever seen in my entire life. So all Jake wants to do is just be like, I will give up everything right now for you.

[Kerry Washington]

So interesting. Right? But also Jake has this like violent temper thing that people often call out.

[Jake]

And then also you see the way. Does he way he treats other people in his life.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes.

[Jake]

And it's weird. It's like very, very broken when he's married to Vanessa.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

And he just ruins Vanessa.

[Kerry Washington]

Ruins.

[Jake]

So you're like, oh, okay. If you're gonna treat them that way.

[Kerry Washington]

What stops you say that you won't do that to Olivia.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

I mean, I feel like she just needs a healthier option.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

But I also love both those actors and I thought both of those relationships were so dynamic and interesting. And interesting and complicated and real. Like, like, I, I don't know. I. I think both men really love her. I just think everybody on Scandal needs a lot of therapy.

[Jake]

A lot.

[Kerry Washington]

Do you have or therapists?

[Jake]

Well, everyone's welcome. Do you have a favorite needle drop from Scandal? Because I told you before mine was. Yeah, Sam Cook.

[Kerry Washington]

I hadn't remembered that. That's so good. What is the episode? Because you'll know. I think Ain't no mountain High Enough. Do you remember that? And it's like a. It's early and there's like we're going in at. We're in the apartment where. I feel like I remember liking that one a lot.

[Jake]

Will you. You know what else I love? Witches. When do they do Everyday People.

[Kerry Washington]

That's a great one.

[Jake]

That is like.

[Kerry Washington]

That's also a great one.

[Jake]

Season two.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay.

[Jake]

I forget when, but I remember being like, I need to like, look at my. Can you look at the Scandal playlist and start reading me off some. There's also like, like, oh my God. There's this one. It's not the original. It's like a cover of this one song.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah. Shonda was so hands on with the music. It was so powerful and important to the show. But I think also the light. I mean, I still get chills when I hear it sometimes.

[Jake]

Like, I'm going to walk down the aisle to the light.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, that's super sweet.

[Jake]

It's seriously like it. When you hear that, you're just like. You melt.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah. Because that one minute, I mean, that was one of the. That was one of the really incredible things. When it said in the script, they sit there for one minute, and then I think in the actual script, it said, not a TV one minute. An actual, real time, real world one minute. And I was like, we're never gonna do that on television. We're never gonna actually sit there for one minute. And we did. We did. We sat there for one minute of the. Was so special.

[Jake]

Can you imagine telling Olivia Pope in that moment? Like, yeah, so this actually isn't going to work out right now. No.

[Kerry Washington]

That would have been so bad.

[Jake]

Yeah. Because, like, in that moment, you're like, oh, he chose her.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah. But that's the roller coaster we sign up for with these shows.

[Jake]

Can I tell you the most random plot line that I was like, in what? No, in what world?

[Kerry Washington]

Yes, of the many. Which one?

[Jake]

I want you to. Okay. Say Tom and Cyrus. What?

[Kerry Washington]

That was interesting.

[Jake]

I'm like, wait. And also, Michael, respectfully, why are you mad that Cyrus is cheating on you? This is arranged.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my God. I love it. It was a lot. It was a lot.

[Jake]

It's just.

[Kerry Washington]

It's just. Was a lot to track, too. But that was. I feel like Shonda loved to just challenge us, Challenge our notion of what's possible, what's not. Yeah. But I even remember. So we were. I had been doing all these scenes with Cyrus Bean. Jeff Perry, who. Okay, so here's the story of how Jeff Perry got on the show. Shonda Lynn. Lynn. Linda Lowy, who had been working with Shonda for many years. She cast Gray's Anatomy. She was moving offices. Shonda Lynn was moving offices, and Shonda was in Linda Lo's office, and Jeff Perry was helping his wife move.

[Jake]

Right.

[Kerry Washington]

And Shonda saw him carrying a box, and she was like, oh, my God, That's. That's so sad. Linda was like, what's sad? She was like, that actor. He's like a Chicago actor. I love him. But now he's moving people. Like, that's what he's doing for money. Linda was like, no, he's my husband. And Shonda was like, he is. I love him. He's amazing. Put him on the show.

[Jake]

There was no auditions for Cyrus. It was just Jeff Perry.

[Kerry Washington]

That's it. Jeff Perry.

[Jake]

No one else could have played Cyrus.

[Kerry Washington]

No. But then we're shooting. I don't remember what episode number, but I'm shooting a scene with Jeff Perry. And they hand out the scripts for maybe the third or fourth episode of the show. And we're shooting one episode, but we get the scripts for the. And I start, like, reading it when I can in between takes, and I get to the line where Cyrus's husband opens the door, and I'm like, you're gay.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

So I'm sitting with him doing the scene. At that point, he didn't know he was gay. So we're sitting, doing the scene, and I looked at him, and I was like, jeff. And I. He said, yeah. I was like, I know something about you that you don't know. He was like, what? And I was like, I can't tell you, but you have to read the episode immediately. It was so fun. It was so exciting.

[Jake]

That was one of the most devastating love stories on Scandal, truly, Because Cyrus never chose his morals.

[Kerry Washington]

I know.

[Jake]

Did he have them?

[Kerry Washington]

Well, there's a good question. Like that fight scene between the two of them, the naked fight scene.

[Jake]

Oh. Where he's stripping.

[Kerry Washington]

He's like, I love that.

[Jake]

Because he can't even talk to his husband without being like, are you wearing a wire?

[Kerry Washington]

No trust.

[Jake]

No trust.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Zero.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

[Jake]

Please tell me about the new Knives out movie and The Prophecy Season 2.

[Kerry Washington]

You're so sweet. I'm. Yeah. I'm so excited. So on the Simpson street side. So I started my production company during these Scandal years. I did a film for HBO called Confirmation, and that was our first film. And now we have so much exciting stuff going on. We have reasonable doubt on Hulu. We have this amazing audio series called The Prophecy Season 2. It's this very cool, like, supernatural thriller where I play a woman. Basically, the idea that was first pitched to me, it was during COVID when we were all feeling like, what is happening in the world? And this brilliant writer, Randy, was like, okay, what if the stuff you read in the Bible isn't actually stories about the past? What if it's prophecy about what's to come or stuff we're living through right now? And so I play this character who cannot get pregnant, but suddenly finds myself pregnant. My name is Virginia, for Virgin Mary, middle name Mary. And there's like, this. This scientist in London who works with lions who said he's Daniel in the lion's den. And, like, a character named Jonah who gets swallowed whole by a whale. Like, all these weird happenings. So that was season one, which you should catch up on because it's David Oyelowo and Daniel Day Kim and Lawrence Fishburne. Like, incredible cast. Season two. The adventure continues. I'm now on the run with this baby from this like crazy cult leader type character played by Giancarlo Esposito. And to lay hills in it, it's really, really fun. And I love doing audio series because you get to just like close your eyes and drop into a world and you can listen while you're running or doing whatever.

[Jake]

And what's it like creating that audio series as opposed to filming a show? I mean, I know it's visual versus.

[Kerry Washington]

Audio so great because you don't have to sit through hair and makeup. You can just like show up in your pajamas. And for me, there's something about that that actually leads to this very pure performance. Like, I feel as though I've done some of my best acting in this series because you're not thinking about where is the camera and how do I look or any of that. You're just like dropped into this alternate reality in a booth in this like cocoon of creativity. So it's very pure, very raw, right? Yeah. And then nice Knives Out.

[Jake]

So I've watched the first two. I love those.

[Kerry Washington]

Me too.

[Jake]

They're excellent.

[Kerry Washington]

I feel so lucky to be in the Knives out universe. To be in this Wake up dead man movie is so fun. The cast is extraordinary. Andrew Scott and Josh Brolin and Josh o' Connor and Glenn Close and Mila Kunis. I mean, just like Jeremy Renner, his first movie back after his big accident. Like, it's just an incredible. And of course, Daniel Craig.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

I was like, he's amazing. He's our fearless leader. I love the filmmaker, Rian Johnson. I love the cast. This, this iteration of the film is like a little bit darker. It's a little bit like gothic in a way.

[Jake]

It's.

[Kerry Washington]

It's so cool. So like smart and funny and gripping and like there's no way in hell you will guess the ending.

[Jake]

You never do.

[Kerry Washington]

You never do. Which I love.

[Jake]

Where did you guys shoot it?

[Kerry Washington]

We. What's weird is, okay, so the film takes place in upstate New York, but we shot it in London. Cuz it's just so much cheaper to shoot overseas right now, which is sad. We have to do something about that in the state of California.

[Jake]

Production to Los.

[Kerry Washington]

We really do. I just shot two projects here which I'm really proud of of. So my company, Simpson street, we have a new series that we just finished shooting for Apple called Imperfect Women with me and Lizzie Moss.

[Jake]

Wow. Congratulations.

[Kerry Washington]

Very exciting. So that'll be out next year. And then I did a movie with Ben Affleck called Animals. So those two things shot in la and I'm so grateful, but we just have to bring more work back here.

[Jake]

I feel like, especially after the fires as well, there's just, yes. This big push, especially from like the, the, the, the cast and crews to be like LA was once such a hub for production.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

And I feel as though maybe it got lost in like I, I've recently learned this that like every location has an agent. Like you have to go through an agent to get a location. Is that true?

[Kerry Washington]

Well, the biggest thing that's, that's sort of forced the shift is finances. It always comes down to money and it, there's just, just so many more incentives in other states and countries to shoot. So we just have to work on getting more of those incentives here in LA so that people can work and be with their families. That's the big thing is that we have so much talent here in Los Angeles and a lot of that talent is constantly being flown to other places or just out of work. And so we don't want to sort of squander our creative community here. We want to provide work for people to do what they do well and chase excellence while still being able to be home for dinner.

[Jake]

Right. And also I feel like a lot of people don't know this and I recently learned it, but a lot of the time when you work on a set, the cast and crew comes from the surrounding area because it's work for that area.

[Kerry Washington]

That's right.

[Jake]

So if you're not shooting in la, a lot of the people that work in costume and cast and crew.

[Kerry Washington]

Unemployed are unemployed. That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah. So I'm really, I'm excited about all the stuff we have going on. I cannot wait for people to see Wake Up Dead Man. It's just like, it's so fun to be part of a movie like that. To be in a thriller, a mystery murder thriller and to be part of an ensemble. Like honestly, I've said this in other interviews, it gave me Scandal vibes, you know, to be, to be back with a set of actors where like every, if you show up to do a knives out movie, you're not looking to be the star. You're like, I want to be part of a team of badass talented people who want to create something special together. And that was how we always worked together. Scandal. Like we were never. We didn't compete for attention, we didn't compete for press, we Weren't. We were so supportive of each other. We used to get together on the weekends to rehearse scenes. We used to get together at each other's houses to watch episodes, because when an episode actually aired, we were just tweeting, not watching it. All we were doing was looking at Twitter and responding to people so we would try to watch the episodes beforehand so that we knew what we were even tweeting about. We were so close, and it was really fun to be in another ensemble gamble like that again.

[Jake]

Right. Do you ever think down the line you guys would ever do some type of reunion?

[Kerry Washington]

It's funny. I've thought about it. I mean, obviously, it's up to Shonda. I don't know if we have it in us to do, like, a series, of course, revisit, but I think it could. I feel like there's a universe where maybe there could be a scandal movie, but I don't know. I don't know. I. If it would have to happen, you know, before I'm like, it's handled, right? Like, you want to be, like, sometime in the near future, So I don't know. I don't know. It's a good question, though.

[Jake]

Okay. I want to do the tell me what's wrongs, and so the tell me wrongs are the pussies right in and they tell us what's wrong.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay.

[Jake]

I'm scared. I peaked in my 20s.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, no.

[Jake]

I'm 34 and have fairly normal but good life. However, I've been feeling very bored these days, and everything is very repetitive. My 20s were so much fun even into postgrad, as I traveled all the time and had no idea what the future held. Is this just a funk, or am I not doing enough to feel fulfilled?

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my goodness. I think you always have room to peak again, but it just might mean shifting your perspective on what you're chasing. Right. Like, for me, I feel like my. And my priorities have shifted in life, so I don't think I've peaked in my career. I feel. I still feel like I have room to grow and magic to create and exciting things to be a part of. But I also see my peak differently now. Like, now I'm chasing more than just a cover of a magazine because I've done a lot of those, and I don't think I was ever chasing that actually, per se, but. But I feel like I'm more ambitious about all of my life. Like, it's not just this one thing. Like, I. I want to be as ambitious about my marriage As I am about acting, as ambitious about my kids as I am about social justice. Like, I want. I want to be able to be ambitious about all those things. So maybe the peak just looks and feels different at different times in your life and you can peak in different ways, but it's like you don't want to get caught in that thing that people always talk about Michael Jackson, like, being so depressed because he could never get back to that initial first feeling of having that huge, huge album. And he was always chasing those numbers. It's like, don't try to repeat what it was in your 20s. Like, find a new peak. Find. Find what it. What, like, the best of you looks like and feels like now.

[Jake]

And I feel like it's hard with social media.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Like, I do it all the time. All I do is compare myself and it's.

[Kerry Washington]

First of all, that's insane because you are one of one. So you can't compare yourself with other people because you're like, you're the best you there ever is going to be, Jake. And like.

[Jake]

Well, thank you.

[Kerry Washington]

Right. But I hear you. It's hard. It's hard.

[Jake]

It's just I've really, really been trying to get off social media lately and it's become very, very addicting, especially for my generation. And I think, I assume what this person is going through is like, seeing all their friends probably doing similar stuff. I mean, whether that be on LinkedIn, whether that be on Tick Tock, whether that be on Instagram. And I think there's a certain piece in. Obviously it's not realistic to just shut it off.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

But to have moments where you can just, like, be present. And I know that's rich coming from me because I'm the least present person in America, but I think that is the only way to find a new peak and to find it is to really get off that for a minute.

[Kerry Washington]

What do you say to yourself when you find yourself in. I have a girlfriend who calls it compare and despair. Like, when you're in compare and despair, what do you do to shift it for yourself?

[Jake]

I really have been struggling with it. I don't have, like, a way yet. Oftentimes if I'm. I like to, like, repress. So I'll put on tv. So I like, throw myself into Scandal or whatever show I'm watching and just live in that world. Or I.

[Kerry Washington]

All.

[Jake]

I don't know what I do. What is. What does your girlfriend do?

[Kerry Washington]

That's a good question. She is a firm believer in turning off the. The socials which you already said. But I think. I think coming back to you, what you said about presence, I think sometimes, like, connecting with people in real life can be an antidote to the compare and despair that happens online, because when you get together with this friend who you're watching with or just people in your life who really know you and love you, like, it's important for me to remember that there are people who love me today, that I don't have to be somebody else to earn that love or to earn likes or follows or whatever. Like, I have people who are down for me as who I am right now in this moment. No makeup, lashes off. Like, just who I am.

[Jake]

You know, that's what I try to remind myself, as, well. And I also. I was thinking about this. When I. When I really get in those things, I'm like. I do try to be like, oh, my God. Okay. If I was who I am comparing myself to be, I wouldn't be anywhere near what I'm doing today.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

I wouldn't be here with you.

[Kerry Washington]

Your unique experience is yours and yours alone.

[Jake]

I wouldn't. Wouldn't. Yeah. I wouldn't be talking to you. I wouldn't be living with my best friends. I wouldn't be. I wouldn't know her. I wouldn't know him. Like, I wouldn't. So in those moments, I'm like, I am only here because of how I've. Because of who I am.

[Kerry Washington]

Like, I like who you uniquely are.

[Jake]

I wasn't trying to be anyone else when it. Like, when it happened for me. And so that's actually what I always remind myself. I'm always like, you wouldn't even have these opportunities that you want that you're not getting. Like, let's say I don't get an opportunity, and I'm upset about it. I wouldn't even have a chance to get that opportunity had I not been myself up until that very moment.

[Kerry Washington]

That's right. That's right.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

That's beautiful.

[Jake]

So that's what I try to remind myself.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Thank you.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes. I feel like that's what Olivia Pope would say. Like, what do you have? What are your gifts? Like, that's what you have to do to be focused on.

[Jake]

Yeah, that's. That's what I remind myself.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Well, on a less somber note, my roommate spoiled scandal for me before I started the last season.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, no.

[Jake]

Okay.

[Kerry Washington]

Rude.

[Jake]

They didn't mean to, but I need to know how to proceed so I don't murder her.

[Kerry Washington]

Deep breaths.

[Jake]

I would say that there Is so much that happens. Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

There's so much nuance. Yeah.

[Jake]

Tgit. Which was a moment. Right. So every Thursday, something crazy happens.

[Kerry Washington]

Crazy.

[Jake]

So while something might have been spoiled, not everything. The journey is what's important in Scandal.

[Kerry Washington]

Look at you. I know.

[Jake]

Like, oh, my God.

[Kerry Washington]

I love it. I love that. He's right.

[Jake]

Yes. And also, it's my third time watching Scandal.

[Kerry Washington]

And you're still loving it.

[Jake]

And I'm still working at opa. Like, I'm still here.

[Kerry Washington]

I love that so much. Yes.

[Jake]

I'm still here. My friends were. My friends were so toxic that I had to move colleges. Now I'm a sophomore and have no friends at this new school. My last group of friends were so manipulative and repeatedly would make the guys I liked or dated leave me. Oh, my God. I'm a little.

[Kerry Washington]

Not friends.

[Jake]

Yeah. Those were absolutely not friends. I'm a little scared to make new friends. So what's a good start in terms of getting out of that shell?

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, maybe focus on an interest. Right. Like, I think figure out something that you're passionate about. Whether it's like an intramural team or a hobby or a choir or a fitness class, whatever it is. Like, but try to lean into your interests. Like, where are the places that help bring out the best parts of you? Places where you go and you feel good because you feel interested. And that'll make you maybe feel more confident about getting to know the other people who share that common interest.

[Jake]

I. I agree too. I think at that point it's like, focus. I remember I met the greatest people in my entire life once. I, like, locked into a career path or something that I was passionate about.

[Kerry Washington]

Because you had something in common and a shared sort of.

[Jake]

That's how I methodology and like, that's how I met everyone that I am with every single day is by, like, locking into this thing I was really passionate about, which was music. And I, like, met everybody that is still in my life today. And it's all because, like, it's like, you know, it's like choosing yourself. Like, not cheesy.

[Kerry Washington]

No, that's.

[Jake]

But like, you know what I mean?

[Kerry Washington]

That's right. You start with choosing you and figuring out, like, what are the things I like about me? Who do I want to be? What do I. What are the spaces I want to be in? And then you'll find yourself with like minded people. Yeah. I love that.

[Jake]

Yeah. My ex texted me on the death anniversary of my grandfather. We have not spoken in over a year. And he said Thinking of you today. You know who that's given? Fitz. How the do I respond to that? The issue is I've been missing him lately. And you know who that sounds like? Olivia.

[Kerry Washington]

I mean, I guess I would ask, why did you break up?

[Jake]

Like, right. Sometimes we don't have context.

[Kerry Washington]

Right. Because. I don't know, maybe you guys should be giving it another go. I don't know. It's hard to say. I feel like it's. You know, you don't want to make blanket statements of, like, if you have an ex, they have to stay an ex. That may or may not be true.

[Jake]

You know my favorite scene in Scandal ever, actually, every time I re. Watch it, I have full body chills. Every time. You are back from standing in the sun with Jake.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

And you are going. You. You're handling something. And you are. You are like, you're back as Olivia for the day.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay. Just for the day.

[Jake]

And you're in a building and Fitz is leaving a room, and you guys make eye contact and your hands pass each other.

[Kerry Washington]

It's like in a big rotunda with, like, marble floors. Right.

[Jake]

He's nearly touched. And I just remember I was with my best friend Peyton, and we. Because she. By the way, I would be remiss to not speak about my friends who also are obsessed with this show.

[Kerry Washington]

Shout outs to the friends. The Gladiators used to.

[Jake]

Peyton used to wake up every morning before work to watch because she. When Olivia got kidnapped, she couldn't go to bed until Olivia wasn't kidnapped anymore.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my God.

[Jake]

So she stayed up until 6am and.

[Kerry Washington]

Then went to work. Oh, my God. Yes, I do. I remember that scene. My favorite thing about that scene is the look on my face and on Tony Goldwyn's face after we pass each other. It's like not quite a smile, but a little bit of, like a warmth and like a. Yeah, you. And it's. What's exciting is not even that the fingers touch, but, like, the space between the fingers. And it's very well shot, tangible, very well directed.

[Jake]

What is your favorite Olit scene?

[Kerry Washington]

I think Vermont is for Lovers is an incredible Olitz episode. That's when he comes to Vermont in the helicopter.

[Jake]

Oh. And Melly's like, charlotte, where is my husband?

[Kerry Washington]

I think that's it. I think that is the episode that Ava DuVernay directed. Wow. And I remember when. So she and I, after that, did the commercial for Apple. There was like, a huge Apple music commercial that we did during the Emmys with me and Mary J. BLIGE and Taraji P. Henson. And when we shot the commercial, Ava was like, now, when we worked on Scandal, I remember you had, like, a side. Like, you had, like, a good side and a bad side. And I was like, oh, no, girl. Like, that's not me. And she was like, no, no. I remember. I remember specifically having all these conversations that there was a specific way I had to shoot you. And I was like, ava, I don't know what you're talking about. And then she came back to me later that night, and she was like, oh, I remember what it was. And I was like, what? She was like, you were pregnant, and we couldn't show it. So we're, like, trying to shoot these love scenes of me and Tony Goldwyn making out, but we're shooting them, like, from here up. Like, bust up, because we couldn't show my belly. It was insane. But, yeah, that was the side we couldn't show was my belly.

[Jake]

Were people like, what was it like working while pregnant? But. And in the sense of, like, everyone was watching and, like, no one knew you were pregnant.

[Kerry Washington]

I mean, you did after a moment, because I was, like, hiding behind boxes and briefcases and chairs and lamps. It was really wild because I begged Shonda to make Olivia Pope pregnant. I was like, I'm gonna be growing wider and wider, and I'm gonna be, like, not doing an Olivia Pope walk strut down the hallway. I'm gonna be, like, waddling down hallways. It's gonna be so weird. And she was like, you have to figure it out. Like, olivia Pope cannot be pregnant. She was like, I love that. Like, she was so supportive of my pregnancy. Literally jumped up and down in my trailer when I told her. She. She was so happy for me, Threw me the best baby shower ever. Like, she was just an incredible boss around that issue. But she was like, olivia Pope can't be pregnant. I'm so sorry for both my pregnancies, and. And I didn't really understand it at the time, but when I became a mom, I got it. Because Olivia Pope is, like, a superhero. She's always the most powerful, most confident. Like, despite the rooms where she's occasionally made vulnerable by fit hits, she is a superhero. And there is an inherent vulnerability in becoming a mom where suddenly your heart is walking outside your body, and especially for being the mother of a black child, where your heart is outside your body and vulnerable to all these systems that your child is up against. And I got it. I was like, that's why Olivia Pope can't be a mom. Because she can't be that vulnerable for anybody in any circumstance other than hits.

[Jake]

Right?

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Wow.

[Kerry Washington]

It was really an intense realization for me.

[Jake]

And was it ever, like, hard to do, like, night shoots while, like, you were like.

[Kerry Washington]

I mean, I. I often were. We often worked 16 hour days at Scandal. I mean, it was really. We worked really long days. So we tried to, toward the end of my pregnancies, keep it to, like, 13 hour days. 12. 13 hour days. But, yeah, I worked all the way through, and I refused to be out of my heels. I was like, I can't walk in flats. I'm Olivia Pope. So I remember my doctor was like, like, take off the heels. I was like, no.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

No.

[Jake]

Do you know who I am?

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah. Exactly. Is my name on that door? So I can't.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

I really. I. I work. I did. I worked through my pregnancies, and I really. It taught me a lot. It taught me how to take cat naps, you know, like, cuz you. You're so tired and. But it was great. It was really. I. I had a working mom growing up, and I really respect working moms. I respect staying at home moms, too. But I. I really. I enjoyed. I think I enjoyed my pregnancies more because I was working and getting to spend my time with the people that I love the most. Right. Yeah.

[Jake]

I totally forgot to ask you. We both grew up in New York.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes.

[Jake]

You grew up? Where in the Bronx did you grow up?

[Kerry Washington]

So I grew up Central East Bronx, like, near Castle Hill Park, Chester. Not far from where Jennifer Lopez grew up. Actually, we went to the same boys and girls club.

[Jake]

Well, wasn't she a substitute dance teacher for you?

[Kerry Washington]

She was.

[Jake]

She was. What was that like?

[Kerry Washington]

So we both had this beloved dance teacher named Larry Maldonado that we loved, love, loved. And Jennifer is just a little bit older than me, so she was in, like, the big girls group. And when Larry got sick and went to the hospital, she used to teach. So she was like 16, 17, and I was like 9 or 10, and she was teaching these classes, and I. So I. You would think I was a better dancer since I learned to dance from JLo, but she was an incredible teacher.

[Jake]

Wow. And when you were talking about the choreographed dancing scandal, were you talking about when Olivia gets kidnapped when you're looking at Jake and you're like, dance with me?

[Kerry Washington]

No, that one we just freestyled. But the episode that I directed was Katie had just. Quinn had just had the baby. And there's a scene where she and Papa Pope, I think, are like dancing in a living room.

[Jake]

I vaguely remember this. I don't remember season seven, but I know that.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah, yeah. So there's like a dance in a living room, right? It's like an electric slide vibe.

[Jake]

I remember that. Yeah, I remember that.

[Kerry Washington]

That was Debbie Allen.

[Jake]

And yeah, to Spence.

[Kerry Washington]

I did.

[Jake]

Wow. And so what train did you take to school?

[Kerry Washington]

I took the number six.

[Jake]

Okay.

[Kerry Washington]

On the six. Like Jennifer Lopez all the way to Gwyneth Paltrow World at Spence.

[Jake]

And do you. Do you keep in touch with anyone?

[Kerry Washington]

I do. I mean, I. I have to say both of those women, because I knew them, obviously in very different contexts, but both Gwyneth Paltrow and Jennifer Lopez have been extraordinarily supportive throughout my career. And just like, real guides and just, like, friendly and kind. I mean, just recently, I. Because, you know, Gwyneth is like the queen of wellness and all the things. And I was like, you need to introduce me to this doctor. This was, like, two weeks ago. So she put me on a text, said, with this doctor, and was literally like, this is my friend Carrie. I've known her since she was in the seventh grade when she was a senior in high school. I was in the middle school. I was in the seventh grade. And so we did one play together because the year that she was a senior, she played Queen Titania in Midsummer Night's Dream. And the middle schoolers were allowed to audition to be the fairies in Midsummer. So I was a fairy the year that she was doing in senior. And so. And also we had an acapella group. We. I think we still have an acapella called Triple Trio. And so I was going into high school, I. Or I. To audition for Triple Trio. The exiting seniors were at the audition, so I auditioned for her to get into Triple Trio. We never sang together on Triple Trio, but I had to audition for her.

[Jake]

Wow.

[Kerry Washington]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Wow. I feel like. Do you remember, like, any of the spots around Spence that you would go to that are still there?

[Kerry Washington]

I don't know how many of them are still there. I feel like Jackson Hole closed that. I'm not sure. Is Jackson Hole still there on 91st? There's a few locations.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Kerry Washington]

I don't know if that one is still there, but Jackson Hole was our main hangout. And then, I mean, we used to walk around. I used to go to the Met all the time when I was really depressed because I love museums. But also we just, like, used to walk around the corner to Nightingale if we were smoking because we wanted. If people. If we Were smoking. We wanted people to think we were Nightingale girls, not Spence girls, so we wouldn't trouble weed.

[Jake]

Both.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes. Yes.

[Jake]

Wow. Okay. So I was in high school during, like, the vaping era.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, wow.

[Jake]

So no one knew what. So we could do it in school. And I would go to the bottom.

[Kerry Washington]

Floor at Calhoun, the big TV school.

[Jake]

The big. Yes. No walls. We had no wall. No walls.

[Kerry Washington]

So I did a summer. I did a summer study course at Calhoun, and it was like Columbia University had a summer studies program in American studies, but we did it at Calhoun. And I was like, this is such an interesting place.

[Jake]

And so were you, like, such a good school? How is. It's great. But were you, like, how.

[Kerry Washington]

How do you focus? How did you focus?

[Jake]

So you actually don't. I. I remember they were like, this is going to teach you how to drown out white noise. Obviously it didn't, but, like, I have some of the. I actually recently just went to my high school advisory reunion last week.

[Kerry Washington]

Oh, my gosh. That's so sweet.

[Jake]

With my. My English teacher was my advisor.

[Kerry Washington]

I pray that my kids have the kind of, like, warm feelings about the places that they go to school that I have about Spence.

[Jake]

I just remember there was something about kind of growing up in New. I don't know if it was to New York, but there was almost like this really respect thing with teachers and students that was like, I'm going to see you as, like, capable of making adult mature decisions, and like, I'm going to respect you based on that.

[Kerry Washington]

Yes. An inherent respect. Like, we weren't treated like infants. We were treated like young people, but people, you know, people who were learning. And I feel like the kinds of educations that we got are so special because we. I wasn't just taught facts. Like, we were taught how to learn. We were taught how to. To be curious, how to be inquisitive, how to absorb information and process it. So there's just a. A. A different way of engaging, even with something like Scandal. Like, I hear the way you talk about it, the way you see it, the way you take in the big picture. It's. That's a. You just. I love your mind.

[Jake]

I love your mind. Well, Carrie, what did we learn today?

[Kerry Washington]

We learned that I am obsessed with you and adore you, and I'm very grateful for you and how much you love our show.

[Jake]

And I just love everything you do. I. I just think you are incredible.

[Kerry Washington]

Thank you. And we learned that Jubilee is real.

[Jake]

Jubilee is real. I'm Googling, like, 94 Dubilet they're like, so. Actually, Shonda Rhimes made that up, but Dubile. The actual wine is real.

[Kerry Washington]

That's so cool.

[Jake]

I have. Would you. Okay. You can say no.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay, thanks.

[Jake]

Would you?

[Kerry Washington]

Because you're making me nervous.

[Jake]

Read something as Olivia Pope.

[Kerry Washington]

I can try. You don't have a while. It's been a while, but I can try.

[Jake]

Okay, cool.

[Kerry Washington]

I would say no to most people, but for you, I feel like I have to. Is it from the script?

[Jake]

No, it is the lyrics to Man Child by Sabrina Carpenter.

[Kerry Washington]

Well, that's better. I love Sabrina Carpenter.

[Jake]

Just, you know, maybe like, verse one into the.

[Kerry Washington]

Literally, in the car this morning, there was another artist on the radio, and I was like, oh, she has Sabrina Carpenter vibes. And my daughter was like, oh, I hear that. My son was like, no way. We had this whole argument about who knows Sabrina Carpenter more. And I was like, I saw her live, babe. My son was like, yeah, but you only went because Gracie wanted to go. And I was like, no, I want to go first. And then. Anyway, so we had a whole Sabrina Carpenter morning. So this is perfect.

[Jake]

Into right there. If. Yeah, yeah. No, like, if. You know, you. I forgot. You have to read it. Okay, Go, go, go, go, go, go.

[Kerry Washington]

Give me some context.

[Jake]

So I would say you are talking to Fitz.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay, I'm talking to Fitz. That's helpful.

[Jake]

He has fucked up. Up.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay.

[Jake]

And we're done. And he's up. In a sense that it hasn't hurt you.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay.

[Jake]

In, like, directly.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay.

[Jake]

But you're like. This is not the person I fell in love with.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay, good. If we do a Scandal movie, can I submit you to direct? Because that was fierce direct.

[Jake]

Acting like school. I would love to be an opa. Internet.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay, here we go. I'm gonna try. You said your phone was broken. Just forgot to charge it. Whole outfit you're wearing. God, I hope it's ironic. Did you say you're finished? Didn't know we started. It's all just so familiar, baby. What do you call it?

[Louise]

Full potty Jo.

[Kerry Washington]

I wish I had a hat. A white hat to wear.

[Jake]

I almost got one and then I forgot. I was just too excited.

[Kerry Washington]

But also, it wouldn't fit over the pony, so it's okay.

[Jake]

And I would just like to say yes, this might go down as my all time favorite therapist episode. The 100th episode. Living Legend.

[Kerry Washington]

Kerry Washington, you're so sweet. Can I. Before you close, will you read the second verse as Olivia?

[Jake]

Yes.

[Kerry Washington]

Okay, thank you. Because I feel like you're so much closer to her right now. It'll help me. Yeah, you're giving your fit responding I'm fit? Yeah, you're responding now why so sexy?

[Jake]

Wait, hold on, hold on Take a.

[Kerry Washington]

Moment take your time Take your time.

[Jake]

It'S not easy why so sexy if so dumb? And how survive the earth so long yeah if I'm not there it won't get done I choose choose to blame your mom Maya Pope man child why are you always coming running to me yes my life won't you let an innocent woman be or in this case president Never never heard of self care Half your brain just isn't there he would never say that to Olivia. Yeah man child why are you always come a running Taking all my loving.

[Kerry Washington]

From me good.

[Jake]

And ladies and gentlemen, Kerry Washington.

[Kerry Washington]

Thank you so much.

[Jake]

So just give a bye bye.

[Kerry Washington]

It's handled.