Session 105: Hilary Duff

Summary

Therapuss with Jake Shane

Session 105: Hilary Duff (November 6, 2025) – Episode Summary

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Episode Overview

In this highly anticipated season finale, host Jake Shane welcomes actress and pop culture icon Hilary Duff for an intimate, lively, and deeply nostalgic conversation. The session delivers a mix of humor, vulnerability, and behind-the-scenes stories, tracking Hilary’s evolving career, personal growth, and the return to music after a decade-long hiatus. Fans of Lizzie McGuire, Duff’s 2000s films, and her new single “Mature” will discover fresh insights into Hilary’s teen stardom, motherhood, mental health journeys, and her ever-growing connection with fans.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflections on the Past and Season Finale Vibes

• Jake expresses deep gratitude to listeners for two successful seasons and his awe at landing Hilary as a guest ([00:10]).
• Emotional note on the podcast’s growth and his excitement for “bigger and better things” in Season 3.

2. Lizzie McGuire and the Making of an Icon

• Hilary shares candid memories of filming The Lizzie McGuire Movie and performing “What Dreams Are Made Of” ([04:23]).

  “I don’t even remember recording that song. But I will say now I love it… It wasn’t technically my song, it was a Lizzie McGuire song.” — Hilary ([05:09])

• Distinction between recording music for herself vs. for Lizzie McGuire.
• On the whirlwind of sudden fame as Lizzie:

  “One weekend, Lizzie McGuire posters appeared at all the malls... all of a sudden, I got mobbed.” — Hilary ([13:10])

3. Pop Stardom and New Music

• The 10-year gap between albums: Hilary felt ready to reconnect with fans and channel adulthood into her music ([07:52]-[09:10]).

  “I just felt like I had a lot of... I can finally fill in the blanks and I’m ready to share with people and connect with them on the level of now.” — Hilary ([07:57])

• The creative journey behind her new single, “Mature,” and the interplay of nostalgia and growth ([31:58], [32:01]).
• Discussion about touring in her teens, the challenges, joys, and why she’d approach it differently today ([34:57]).

  “I had very little training, but I had these songs and I was just gonna go for it… It was just, like, really scrappy.” — Hilary ([34:57])

4. Acting, Identity, and "Outgrowing" Lizzie

• On transitioning from Lizzie McGuire to films like A Cinderella Story and Raise Your Voice ([12:13]).
• Letting go of the Lizzie persona and the differences from her later characters, esp. her role in Younger ([22:56]).

  “Kelsey had this confidence that Lizzie never had… she was a little bit more beast mode.” — Hilary ([22:56])

5. Disney Channel Legacy & Mentoring the Next Generation

• The Disney Channel formula and Hilary’s exhaustion after intense schedules ([16:36]).
• Brief interactions with younger Disney stars like Selena Gomez and Demi Lovato ([18:03]).

  “It’s been so fun to watch all of them pave their way and watch the journey.” — Hilary ([18:24])

6. Motherhood, Growing Up, and Finding Community

• Parenting in an era of screens and short attention spans ([19:00]).
• Challenges of early motherhood, making "mom friends", and redefining priorities ([47:28]).
• The evolution of confidence, friend groups, and the importance of editing relationships as Hilary reached her thirties ([71:17]).

7. Celebrity Culture: Then vs. Now

• Nightlife nostalgia: clubbing pre-social media, when privacy felt possible and phones weren’t everywhere ([60:13]-[64:53]).

  “Now you can curate your entire life how you want people to see it. You couldn’t do that back then.” — Hilary ([63:01])

• Celebrity tabloid culture, paparazzi, and the impact of sites like Perez Hilton ([61:46]).

8. Candid Fan Advice: “Tell Me What’s Wrong”

• Hilary and Jake answer fan questions about relationships, friendship, and personal growth ([51:22] onward).
• Thoughtful insights on advocating for your needs, finding new friends, handling falling-outs, and dealing with unsupportive parents re: mental health ([55:53]-[77:56]).

  “Our nanny… will join a pickleball group or... just find some things that you like to do and go join a group and it will expand your life.” — Hilary ([55:23]) “It’s okay to edit. Sometimes you have to friend cleanse. It’s okay.” — Hilary ([71:18])

9. Mental Health and Generational Change

• Open discussion about OCD, mental health stigma, and the progress in how openly people share now ([75:33]-[80:14]).

  “Even just one generation ago, it was really tough for people to talk about their problems and their imbalances.” — Hilary ([78:00])

10. The Return: “Mature” and the Music Video

• Hilary describes the concept for the “Mature” video—meeting her younger self and themes of self-acceptance, growth, and nostalgia ([81:18]-[82:56]).

  “Being where I am now, it's really nice to send love back to yourself, you know, that's gone through whatever it's taken you to get wherever you are.” — Hilary ([82:22])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Not Feeling Cool:

  “Jake, we haven’t spent that much time around each other. I never feel cool.” — Hilary ([14:22])

• On Navigating Fame Young:

  “There was before, and then there was after. And was that kind of a tent pole moment… or did it take some time?” — Jake
  “It was instant. It was really fast.” — Hilary ([16:04])

• On Performing in Clubs Before Social Media:

  “No phones. Yeah. We used to spend three hours getting ready to go out… and we wouldn’t go out until like, midnight.” — Hilary ([60:13], [60:34])

• On Friendship and Editing People Out:

  “It’s okay to edit. Sometimes you have to friend cleanse.” — Hilary ([71:18])

• On Parenthood and Gray Hairs:

  “I'm really pissed about getting gray hairs... It's happening. It's crazy. And I'm just not ready.” — Hilary ([45:11])

• On Being Direct with Friends:

  “If I had to do that, I was like, you have to just own it and be like, ‘I can't show up for you in this capacity right now. It feels overwhelming. I need some space.’” — Hilary ([71:50])

• On the Power of Generational Openness:

  “This generation being so forthcoming about their struggles… is giving such a comforting space for people that... aren’t on TV or aren’t... It’s them not feeling alone.” — Hilary ([78:00])

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Important Segments (with Timestamps)

• Intro, Gratitude, and Hilary’s New Music (00:10–04:06)
• Lizzie McGuire Movie & “What Dreams Are Made Of” (04:23–06:41)
• Transition to Music, “Metamorphosis” Years (09:10–12:13)
• Stepping Outside Lizzie, “Cinderella Story” (12:13–14:47)
• Fame, Pressures, and Paparazzi Stories (13:10–18:40)
• Motherhood and Her Children’s Perception of Her Career (19:00–22:03)
• On “Younger” & the Unmade Lizzie Reboot (22:56–24:21)
• Touring Experiences & Granny Hobbies (34:57–36:56)
• Celebrity Culture: Then vs. Now (60:13–64:53)
• Advice Segment: “Tell Me What's Wrong” (51:22–77:56)
• Discussing OCD, Therapy, Generational Change (75:33–80:14)
• Making the “Mature” Music Video (81:18–83:22)
• Final Reflections and Takeaways (84:00–86:16)

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Warm, irreverent, and deeply honest—a mix of nostalgia, humor, and self-reflection.
• Jake’s enthusiasm, fandom, and empathy balance perfectly with Hilary’s relaxed candor and mature insights.
• The episode moves easily from pop culture memories to serious personal topics, keeping a breezy yet meaningful flow.

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Final Takeaways

• Hilary Duff’s journey mirrors the ups and downs of many who found fame young—her humility, humor, and clarity shine as she reconnects with music and fans, older and wiser.
• Listeners are treated to rarely heard “behind the scenes” moments from 2000s pop culture, plus valuable life advice.
• Jake’s “therapuss” approach draws out introspection, laughter, and genuine connection, ending the season on a high, heartfelt note.

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Key quote to sum up the session:

“It’s really nice to send love back to yourself… that’s gone through whatever it’s taken you to get wherever you are.” — Hilary Duff ([82:22])

Transcript

[A]

Hi, and welcome to the season finale of Therapists. I actually. I guess it's. What's it, November now? I guess it's really been almost a year since we started this season. And when I did Therapist season one, it took off in this way. I, like, had absolutely no idea would happen. And the same thing kind of happened for season two, which just kept getting bigger and more intense and more fun, and all these moments that were like dreams that I never thought would happen happened. I mean, in season two, we had Lord, we had Selena Gomez. I mean, we have Hillary Duff tonight. It's just. It's insane. It, like, really is so insane what this has become. And it's really and truly all because of you guys. Like, nobody else made this happen but you guys. And I'm just so grateful for the community we've built and, like, this platform you guys have given me. And I cannot wait to do bigger and better things in season three. I'm, like, sad that this is. Oh, that season two is over, but I'm also really, really excited to redo the set. And I always want to be better. I always want to get better at interviewing people. I always want to get better at keeping the conversation light, but also deep. Like, there's so much for me to get better on, and I'm so excited to have that opportunity in another season. It really, really warms my heart that the heart of this show, which is me and my best friends, has never changed. Like, you guys still love the friend episodes, no matter how big the guests get. Like, at the end of the day, I think what your guys's favorite moments from the show are always with my best friends, and it makes me so happy, and it makes recording these episodes with them so much fun. And I can't wait to do more of those in season three. I'm just feeling very grateful and very excited to do more in the coming months. Yeah, I don't really know what else to say. I was, like, I was out this weekend. I went to the LACMA gala, and I was, like, looking around, and I was like, I've never been to something, something as cool as this before. And all I kept thinking about was this podcast and you guys and how the only reason I'm there is because of that. And I was just feeling very grateful. And thank you so much to our sponsors of this season. It would not have been the same without you. Thank you, Bumble. Thank you, Seatgeek. Thank you, booking. Booking. Die. Yeah. Thank you, Celsius. Thank you, Cozy Earth. I love you Guys, thank you so much. Thank you for believing in me. Thank you for believing in this show. I cannot wait to see what happens next season, and I'm really, really excited for you guys to see the season finale tonight. It is with none other than the Queen herself, Hilary Duff. Her new single, mature is out November 6th. That's this Friday. It is incredible. I can confirm I've heard it the way I would describe it, it reminds me so much of metamorphosis, if metamorphosis grew up 20 years, which it literally did. The chorus is incredible. I mean, when Louise heard it, she almost passed out. She said she felt like she was, like, transported back in time, but it's like you're transported back in time, but you're also present, if that makes sense, because the content is so different. It's just incredible. I'm so excited for everyone to hear it, and I'm so excited for you guys to see the episode tonight. Hillary is a living icon. We got to Talk about the 2000s Lizzie McGuire. The Lizzie McGuire movie, a Cinderella story. Raise your voice. It was such an incredible conversation, and I'm so grateful that she was the season finale. So thank you, Hillary. Stream mature on November 6th, and I'll see you next season. I love you, pussies. Enjoy the episode. Oh, my God, I'm so excited. I'm gonna freak out. You already know. I had my movie marathon this weekend.

[B]

I really enjoyed watching that.

[A]

That was just the best experience of my life. I was literally every morning, I'd wake up and I would put a new one on. I would put a new one on, and I was in bed with my friend Cassidy all weekend.

[B]

And what did you order?

[A]

Like, what do you like, food wise? Like, I got pho.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I had. It was really good. And then I all. Yeah, I had pho, I think, like, twice this weekend. And I was really hungover. And I was finishing, obviously, the Lizzie McGuire movie. And obviously the final. Well, not the final scene, but the scene came on where, what, this. What dreams are made of. Obviously you perform it. And I looked at Cassidy and it was, like, the most unity I felt in, like, maybe 10 years. I was like, this song is actually poetic. I was also really high, but, like, it was fantastic. And I really. I did want to ask you, like, when you were making that in the.

[B]

Studio, was I really high?

[A]

No. No. Were you just like, were you like, holy, this song is amazing.

[B]

No, stop it very much. No.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah. Absolutely not. I don't even remember recording that song. But I will say Now I love it. And when I was filming the movie, I loved it. It was just. It was like a weird time. And it wasn't technically my song, it was a Lizzie McGuire song. So I think having like my music that I was recording, I forget the timeline, to be honest. I mean, I was literally 14 years old, I think.

[A]

Yeah, you were young.

[B]

So like, if I was like, hey.

[A]

What did I do at 14? I'd be like, I have no idea.

[B]

Yeah, there's some very big moments that stand out, obviously, like some of the, like being in Italy for Lizzie McGuire, but then the rest of it filmed in Vancouver. I could like barely remember any of that stuff.

[A]

So what filmed in Vancouver?

[B]

I don't know. I don't. It was like a song for Lizzie McGuire.

[A]

So you didn't think it like represented you? You were like, this is Lizzie.

[B]

Yeah, got it.

[A]

It's a banger.

[B]

And actually when I sing it now, I feel a lot of joy. I just think that there was like such a se. Back then of like me and my music and Lizzie McGuire, that, that song, like I didn't, I didn't really get to perform that song live. Cuz I didn't own it. Maybe. Or.

[A]

Oh, I was about to say. Cuz that was it. It was under Disney. It was. It was like Lizzie McGuire IP.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when you did your tour and you were doing Metamorphosis, you were just doing songs from that album. Interesting.

[B]

But if I would ever tour again.

[A]

Don'T play with me.

[B]

I think maybe I would be allowed to manage to sing that song somehow.

[A]

Some way on the floor, you'd have to scream.

[B]

Maybe, you know, just maybe like hypothetically.

[A]

You would have to scrape me off the floor with like a Zamboni. Like I. Oh my God, if I heard that laugh, I think I.

[B]

Wait, a Zamboni. Does that mean we're like in an arena?

[A]

Yeah, I think like if, like you're.

[B]

In an arena, if there's a Zamboni.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a big show.

[A]

Would you. You have done arenas?

[B]

I have.

[A]

You have. For Metamorphosis.

[B]

I liked your. Your casual cosmopolitan over there. Little cosmopolitan. How old is that? New or old?

[A]

No, it's very old. It's from. Well, not very old, but it's from like I think 2010. And. And it. And my friend Willa gave it to me as a gift.

[B]

Oh, I know it's off topic.

[A]

No, but you're obviously recording new music now, which I had the pleasure of hearing. Louise. I mean, she started crying.

[B]

Wait, what?

[A]

She Started crying. She said she felt like she was transported back.

[B]

Stop.

[A]

She's. It's actually phenomenal.

[B]

So sweet.

[A]

Thank you. Phenomenal.

[B]

You're so sweet. Thank you.

[A]

Of course. But it's your first music in 10 years, right?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What made you say, like, okay, now this is the moment that I want to do new music?

[B]

You know, it's always been, it was always going to happen. There's no, there's, there's no way that that was not going to be a part of my, my story. But I think living with the person that I live with, who's my husband, and just being 10 years removed from music and being 38 and just like arriving kind of like where I am in my life and I just felt like I had a lot of like, I can finally like, fill in the blanks and I'm ready to like, fill in those blanks and share with people and connect with them on the level of now. And you know, I've had a 25 plus year career and in an. And like, I, obviously it's taken a lot of twists and turns and ups and downs and all of those things, but I have this crazy like, connection with fans that like, I've known since I was 9, 10 years old and, and I just want to like, connect with them again now. And I think that we have gone through a lot of the same things, whether that's complicated relationships, anxiety, raising kids, divorces, trying to find yourself in adulthood, family drama. I mean, lots of, lots of topics that, you know, just felt like finally I felt safe enough and comfortable in my own family to step outside and open that part of myself up again and, and you know, like just being comfortable to say no and really not know what the capacity looks like of like, okay, I did used to tour arenas and I did do these big giant things when I was younger and now it might look a little bit different and that's okay, you know, which in the past looked a lot like, go work with this songwriter and right. Go fly to Sweden and do this thing, because this is what's working for this person. And that, you know, just. It felt a. It felt messy and, and still there was like big parts of me in there, but I just didn't really know my power yet.

[A]

When you.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

That made complete.

[B]

That was a very long answer.

[A]

No, but it made complete sense. Like, do you feel like when you were making your first few albums, like metamorphosis was that kind of like the path you were on? They were like, go work with this person. Go work with this person. And like, did you not feel like those encapsulated how you felt in that moment?

[B]

So Metamorphosis is a little bit different because I was very involved in that record. And that was a very big snapshot of, like, my life in that moment and entering me as a pop star.

[A]

How old you were? 15?

[B]

14, I think maybe I was 14. Making the record, turning 15. And that was a very big, like, me record. And I worked with a lot of the same people, which felt good and felt a little bit more like a creative journey that was like all in one house.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? And then. And some of my other records as well. I forget them. I forgot. I forget all the titles. One's called Hillary Duff, that was self titled.

[A]

One is called Hilary Duff.

[B]

Colon, I'm dead for you right now. You did such good research.

[A]

Breathe in, breathe out. Yeah, so that Most Wanted. Oh, so good. So good. No, it's not even. I didn't even need to do research. Like, I have been. I felt like I've been living with you in my household since I gained consciousness. You know what I mean? Like, I really and truly, like, I remember watching Lizzie McGuire as a kid, and then I remember watching the Lizzie McGuire Movie and then Cinderella Story and then, you know, like, everything. Material Girls, everything. Do you have, like, a favorite?

[B]

I loved Cinderella Story. I mean, I was like an angsty little preteen, like.

[A]

Or.

[B]

No, like, I was fully teenager, I think, filming that movie. So that was just like a good time for me. I felt like I was like, oh, I'm like, filming a cool movie. And, you know, I wasn't like, I was like, stepping outside of Lizzie McGuire. And that felt. That felt exciting. And I was starting to do music and so, yeah, I think that one.

[A]

Were you nervous about stepping outside of Lizzie?

[B]

No, I was so ready. I was so ready. And I, you know, I don't mean to talk about her as like a. I needed to. I needed a break from that, but I really needed a break from her.

[A]

You were 14, 15.

[B]

Yeah. And I feel like I was her. I'm not gonna pretend that I was, like, some amazing actress. Like, she was me. I was her. It was the same. You know what I mean? We were both, like, in the same exact element of our lives and time of our lives and. But she just became so famous.

[A]

You were. And you didn't expect that at all.

[B]

No, I. I'm such a, like, grubby little Texas kid that, like, I, like, I remember I'm also a Valley rat. Like, I grew up in the Valley. Once we got to LA from Texas, I was like an Oakwood apartment kid. You know, eventually we, like, got a condo, and that was a big deal. And we weren't, you know, living in the Oakwood apartments anymore. And I was just, like. I had, like, a scooter gang. And, like, I was just friends with, like, all the Burbank kids, right? One weekend, Lizzie McGuire posters, like, appeared at all the malls. And I was, like, meeting my friends at the mall, and my mom, like, didn't even think twice about it. And all of a sudden, I got mobbed at the mall. And.

[A]

And this was after the premiere.

[B]

I think it was, like, happening that week.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And someone who worked at the mall stuck me in the janitor closet and was like, call your mom to come and get you. It was crazy.

[A]

Were you, like, in that moment, were you. Were you like, this is so cool. Like, I. This is like, I. This is, like, what I've, like, been working towards and dreamt of. Or were you, like, I am so overwhelmed. What did I sign up for.

[B]

Jake? We haven't spent that much time around each other. I never feel cool.

[A]

Shut. Shut. Stop it. That can't be true. You and the Dodgers had a Cinderella story. I mean, my jaw, I'm gagged. I'm sitting there like, there's no one cooler in the diner. I'm like, there's actually never been anyone cooler. You don't feel cool?

[B]

Oh, my God. I mean, now I love. Like, I. I don't want to feel cool now.

[A]

Like, cool is not, you know, you're, like, past the point of, like, feeling cool. You know, that's like, in a teen. You didn't feel cool as a teenager being like, yeah, I'm Hilary Duff.

[B]

No.

[A]

What?

[B]

I don't think so. I mean, I think I had moments where I had a lot of confidence and then other moments where I was, like, out of body experience, you know?

[A]

Was that one of those out of body experiences?

[B]

Oh, yeah, big time. And I honestly didn't. I was just like, mom, can you come get me? Because there's lots of people at the mall, like, really excited that I'm here. Like, I've always been, like, shy. I don't. I'm, like, a hybrid of, like, shy and very talkative. But, like, you know, it's. I think it was just weird to have, like, so much attention. But I understood it, too. Like, I'm like, I'm an actor. I know I could assume this was going to happen, but it's not really what I wanted. The outcome. I wasn't. It wasn't the desired outcome.

[A]

Got it. Got it. And then is that the moment where you're like, the before? Like, there was before and then there was after. And was that kind of a tent pole moment of you where it was like, now this is after, and now Lizzie McGuire has premiered and everything has changed, or did it take some time?

[B]

It was instant. It was really fast.

[A]

And, like, I think that's the power.

[B]

Of TV in people's living rooms, you know? Right.

[A]

Because it was just on all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And do you. Was like.

[B]

I think I remember feeling cool. Like, even. Like, even Stevens was on and, like, all these other shows that I loved watching, and I was like. And there I am.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. But, like, I'm shy about it.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

I think I felt cool.

[A]

But it's crazy because Lizzie McGuire was only on for two seasons.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Did. Was there ever talk. Did they want to push it more? And you were like, I'm. I'm done.

[B]

Okay. So this was, like, always a complicated thing for me to understand as a, like, younger person is like, Disney Channel had a formula that they followed where they just ordered a certain amount of episodes, and that was what they did for their shows. That's like, they spent this amount of money, they had this amount of an order, and they stuck to that formula for all of those shows.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I never understood that. Like, it was. I mean, I think one year, we shot, like, 30 episodes in one year, and maybe the next one was, like, 35 episodes in one year. So that's when I'm like, I'm not like, oh, Lizzie McGuire hated her. I was just like, I had worked, like, you know, you were young, I was young, and it was just day, day to every day, every day. And I was in every single scene of that show. Pretty much. I was in the A story and the B story. So I was just, like, pretty tapped on her. But also, it was fun. I loved it. I loved it. I had the best time. But, yeah, that was like. I think. And then, like, Lizzie McGuire broke all of their records for the shows. And I think after that show, they were like, oh, we're changing this. And, like, the Hannah Montanas came and Wizards of Waverly Place and stuff. And I think maybe they shot more episodes of those.

[A]

They did. I think there was about three or four seasons of those.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did Selena or Miley or anyone in that generation ever come to you and be like, what Was this, like, for you? Like, did you ever mentor any of the them or was it just separate, separated?

[B]

It was always like, I can't remember exactly, but I know at some point, like, Selena and Demi both approached me at certain things, like years and years and years ago. Then they were like, you know, really lovely and really sweet and kind and telling me how much they love me and that kind of conversation. But I was never like, let me show you the way.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Which, thank goodness, because it's been so fun to watch all of them pave their way and watch the journey. It's been, like, insane. Like, what. What a ride for all of. All of the Disney people.

[A]

You know, it's crazy, though, that Disney Channel is not extinct now. But it's not what it was. Like, do your children, like, do they know, like, what they, like, understand, like, how big Disney Channel was? Or is it big for them still? Or are they, like, watching, like, streamers and stuff? Like, what are the kids watching?

[B]

So weird. Every night I put them to sleep and I'm like, let me tell you about how big I was in Disney Channel. The network I was on, it was big kids. No, they don't know and they don't care at all.

[A]

They're missing out.

[B]

Yeah, I'm more just like, negotiating iPad time. And, you know, they have like, the attention span of a gnat and that's that. No, I'm just kidding. They actually. My four year old Mei Mei loves a Cinderella story, and she's like, you know, can you put the one on where you're the princess, where you're the. With the big dress? And I'm like, yeah, but then she only wants to get to the end. And she's like, why do I have to wait so long for to. To see the dress?

[A]

Oh, she just wants, like, the rain and the. Everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My God. We spoke about this very briefly over dm. Were you not during filming, like, with the mask on? And Chad Michael Murray is like, who are you?

[B]

You're like, don't you love it?

[A]

Yeah, but aren't you like, isn't it.

[B]

Just part of movie history that you love?

[A]

And you're like, yes. But in that moment, were you like, hello? He might like, were you. Were you, like, clocking it in the moment? Like, he. He knows, right? Or were you just like, whatever? Like, it.

[B]

I think I was like, 16 and I didn't give a. Yeah. I was like, I've got to wear this mask on my face.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I wasn't really too invested in the creative at that.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Point.

[A]

Got it. Got it.

[B]

I'm so sorry if I let you down.

[A]

No, no, it's. It's okay.

[B]

Or the wardrobe stylist didn't make the right choice.

[A]

No, you know what? Like, that makes. That's the fun of it. You're watching it, and you're like, how does he not know?

[B]

You know?

[A]

But, you know, he is part of my favorite trope, and so are you. The unpopular girl works in the diner, and the popular boy and the whole popular group comes in, and the popular boy shows you attention. And you know what? You have worked in a diner in multiple films.

[B]

Oh, wait, what's the other one?

[A]

Raise your voice. You worked in a family restaurant.

[B]

A fact I did not remember.

[A]

She did, right? You did. Like, you. Do you feel like. Do you feel like maybe I should.

[B]

Have worked in a job?

[A]

Could you, like, if you had to, like, throw.

[B]

I would crush working in a job.

[A]

I think you would, too, because you do a great job. And I understand it's a movie, but, like, I've seen it now in two different, completely worlds.

[B]

This is. This is a little off topic, but I'm just hoping I find the thread. I like one of my husband's. One of the things he complains the most about me is I love to, like, meet a vacation friend, or, like, we'll go out to dinner, and I'll just, like, start talking to the table next to us. And he's like, hillary, come on. Why? Why, like, we get so little time. Why do you have to, like, bring this person in? Whatever. I think if I worked at a diner, I would be, like, social.

[A]

Yes. Well, that. Happy. That's the best quality of a diner waiter or waitress is that you know them.

[B]

Yeah. You know the order.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know, you're like, that familiarity.

[A]

You're like, yes, yes, yes, yes. Do you. Okay, so I was also watching younger. And do you.

[B]

Did you watch all of Younger?

[A]

I watched. I watched it when it was on the air. I watched for a few seasons, and then I was in college, and I.

[B]

Kind of like, oh, I'll give it to you. Fell off.

[A]

I fell off television in general, in college, I was like. I, like, lost myself completely, but I know.

[B]

I wonder if I would do that if I went to college.

[A]

Do you ever wonder, like, yeah, like.

[B]

What I would have been like in either middle school, high school, or college? Who would I be?

[A]

You didn't even. Lizzie McGuire was your middle school.

[B]

No, like, I was. So that was. That's, like, a secret. When like, the fact that I got a. Like, a locker as Lizzie McGuire, like, I felt like it was my own. And I was just like, this is when I got.

[A]

But you had, like, all your Burbank friends. Like, were they all in middle school being like, this is what middle school is like. And were you like, damn, yeah. Were you like, it's cool that I'm Lizzie McGuire, or both combination? Yeah, yeah, combo. What I was gonna ask about younger, though, was did that feel somewhat like a continuation of Lizzie's story in, like, a weird way, or was it to you two separate entirely Two separate stories?

[B]

To me, it was two separate stories because Kelsey had, like, this confidence that Lizzie never had. And Kelsey was, like, a little bit more, like, beast mode with, like, her career and, like, driven to, like, get ahead. And she was like a party animal and, like, sexually, like, free. And I don't feel like Lizzie are. Is any of those things.

[A]

But didn't you guys want to make Lizzie like that for the reboot? And they were like. And then, like, that's what happened, right?

[B]

Yes. I think that there was. There was, you know, just disagreeances on how far we could take her and what. Where she is, as, you know, she would have been when we were filming that, like, 30 or 31. And for me, I was that age, you know, and so I was just like, also felt so deeply connected to her as a character because we were the same. And I was like, oh, man. Like, we can't. We can't marry Tyler more her. That's not like. I don't know, it was like 20, 23. Like, you know what I mean? There's like, social media and, like. Like, we weren't. I wasn't trying to have her, like, wake up and do, like, bong rips or anything, but, like, she was a nor 30 year old, you know, so there was some things I think they just weren't, like, totally willing to.

[A]

And do you. Did you see her, like, do you think Lizzie and Gordo had, like, a thing post or do you think they stayed friends?

[B]

So I don't think they had a thing post. I think they had, like, maybe an almost thing post. I know, like, again, like, another swing at it that, like, didn't. Yeah. Devastating. Right. In my mind. This is my story.

[A]

You are Lizzie.

[B]

But I think that there was a thing with someone else that was just very quick.

[A]

And Gordo was like.

[B]

I think maybe it was like a thing with, like, in my mind, I like to think she had, like, a thing with Ethan Craft finally.

[A]

Oh, yes. You agree?

[B]

Totally agree. Yeah. Just a quick thing, like a. Like a. You know, like. Yeah, yeah. And he's always, like, there to pick up her pieces still, like. I know.

[A]

I mean, he.

[B]

It's really fun to play the what ifs. Like, I love to play it out.

[A]

But, like, you really don't think ever with Gordo? No. You know what you said. No, I agree. I agree, I agree.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was there ever conversation about taking Lizzie into high school and you were like, no, it was just like, junior high. She's done. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think that was the demo for the Disney Channel. Like, high school students.

[A]

And did you. When you were filming the. The movie.

[B]

So that. They had never done that. They had never done a movie, and.

[A]

When you were filming that and it came out. Because when it came out, it was major. Like, did you expect it to be as big as it was because Lizzie McGuire had been so big, or were you, like, still being like, wow, this is crazy.

[B]

I don't really recall. Like, it all was so big. That's all I remember is, like, it was all so big. It was also like, oh, this has never happened before. Oh, look at this. These numbers are this. You know, it was like, all this stuff that, like, I kind of understood but didn't really understand. And, like, I was also, like, a selfish teenager.

[A]

Right. Of course.

[B]

You know, so I. I had other. Other things to pay attention to, which I think was probably really healthy, that, like, my parents or my mom wasn't, like, basking in the. Yeah. Obviously, everybody loves success. Right? It was all great for business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I still, like. I think I was, like, getting my driver's license, and I was really focused on that.

[A]

Do you. When did, though, like, photographers and press start?

[B]

Like, around that time.

[A]

So, like, 2003. They, like. You were. That's when they started following you around and stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And do you remember feeling like, oh, I feel this. This feels weird at one point, and you feeling like this is getting more intense and this feels weird.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

I just remember having to, like, deal with paparazzi everywhere I went. So that was weird because. And my sweet friends. My. My friends would be like my bodyguard. I think part of it was, like, there was a tiny, tiny portion that was, like, kind of fun and exciting, of course. And then it got old really fast, and then we were all, like, really sick of it.

[A]

Well, because, like, at first it's like, oh, hi, photo.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

And then it's like, oh, no, you've. It's actually. You're Waiting outside my house. And you're following me everywhere.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's sometimes there's some paps around, but not like it used to be, like hordes of them, you know, and like following me around all day long. They love to do it to a pregnant woman, which is like the worst possible time to want to be followed around. And, you know, just every single location, every single stop you're making throughout the day, they're there and they're like driving crazy and they don't care and they break all the rules and they have no respect for you and.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But it has changed a lot.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Or people don't care about me anymore. I don't know which one.

[A]

People care. Do you hear how many people screamed when you came out as Sally with role model?

[B]

Yes, I did.

[A]

Like, that was. I want to say that was the most talked about crazy Sally. It was. Do you agree? People were like, no chance. And it was. What was that?

[B]

Like, that was so fun. Honestly. I had been listening to his music a lot and I was just cooking dinner for my kids. Honestly, it was like a normal night at my house. And I tend to not be in touch with my cell phone for like a few hours during that time. That's like a. That's peak craziness at my house is like 4:30 to like 7:30. And my husband calls the home phone. We have a home phone because we live in the canyon.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yeah. We have like, shitty service.

[A]

Oh, you have like a landline.

[B]

We have a landline, babe.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

We also have wi fi, but no.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just in case we got that line.

[A]

Wow. So he called the landline.

[B]

Yeah. And he's like, babe, can you please pick up your phone? Everyone's trying to reach you. You have to go be Sally tomorrow. And I was like, what? That's exciting. And I was like, I can't. I have too much to do tomorrow. And he was like, no, no, no, you're gonna go do it. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna go do it. And then I just like moved a bunch of shit around and dug my cowboy boots out of my closet and was on a plane like the next morning at 8am and it was fun. It was very fun. I also like, I'm from Texas.

[A]

Right. So it was like, felt full circle.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. And do you know I was the first ever Sally.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What?

[A]

Tucker didn't tell you? No, I was the first ever. Sally, stop. Swear In Houston.

[B]

What?

[A]

No, in Dallas. I'm so sorry. In Dallas. In Dallas. Because I was in Houston the next night, which is why I thought that. But still close by.

[B]

You were the first Sally. Yeah, I want to. I want to see the footage.

[A]

I'll send it to you.

[B]

I want to compare our.

[A]

Yours is much better, but. Because I didn't know what to do. But, yeah, I was the first Sally.

[B]

That's amazing. Are you guys friends?

[A]

Yeah. He's been on the show. He's great. But he. There was like. There was like a. He's been on the show twice. And so there was like, a rumor that the song was, like, written about me as, like, a. Obviously a joke, and I love attention, so I'm like, repost. Obviously, like, I want to reiterate the rumor. And I was like, oh, my God, you're in Dallas. I'm in Dallas. And he's like, do you want to come out and do something? And Sally was born.

[B]

Stop. You created it. This movement.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I've never had such a mix of people like, wait, who is Sally? Or holy. You're gonna be Sally.

[A]

Yes. It's a huge, huge thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's crazy, though, about concert culture that has changed drastically is bringing out people as, like, a show that never used to be a thing. Right. Because, like, what. What do you think, like, performing pre social media versus during social media? Like, what is the difference to you? Obviously, there's, like, very obvious differences, but, like, to you, what is the difference?

[B]

I mean, I think it's just a common theme in life now where, like, everything is filmed and, like, you're witnessing everything through your camera lens to get it on camera so you can, like, I guess, relive it again or. I don't know what. So you can brag about it or what? Like, that's. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's not just concerts. It's witnessing. And, like, I'm watching my kid do a thing at school, and instead of just watching it, I'm, like, watching it through my screen.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I think that's. That's the. That's the thing is just to, like, have it, I guess, or to catch the moment. Like, what's the. We're all a lot less present. One thing I'm grateful for is that I don't always have to go to the concert and I can see it on social media.

[A]

Got it. Got it.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, the highlights.

[A]

Yes. Do you want to talk about your single? Because by the time this comes out, it'll be Announced.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Mature.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where was the inspiration behind that? What was it like creating it?

[B]

Yeah. With Mature, it's. It's a really fun song and I feel like it's myself talking to my younger self about an experience that we had and just reflecting on it and being okay with it and having like, you know, a little, like, tongue in cheek moment with yourself and. And like accepting your past and like, being good with where you landed.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Does that make sense?

[A]

That makes complete sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like you can look back on a situation with more wisdom than you had in the moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, like, release the feelings that you have towards it. Do you feel like when you write a song, you release everything you have about that situation?

[B]

I don't think I release everything, but I think it feels good to talk about, like, it's just like sitting with a friend. Right. Like, anytime someone's meeting you where you're at or has had a similar experience, like, you feel instantly a little better about yours.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's what music does. Right. Like, you see yourself or feel yourself in music and that's why you keep listening to it, because it sees you and you see it.

[A]

Do you have a song in your discography that you recognize really resonates with your fans the most and, like, you feel very connected to them while performing that song?

[B]

Oh, that's a really good question. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to, like, dig into my. My disco. My disc. Disc.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do it for me.

[A]

Discography.

[B]

Discography. But I might text you later and be like, it's this one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There's a song that you might be familiar with. It's called Wake Up.

[A]

Might be familiar.

[B]

Okay. It wasn't a single, so I never know.

[A]

Wake up wasn't a single.

[B]

No, babe, that was just for me in the moment of my life and feeling like everywhere I went, I had eyes on me and everyone was like, talking about me. And whether it was good or bad, it didn't matter. It was just like performing that song was always, like, the most fun. I feel like I loved it and the audience was like, they're with me. And I, I. It's not like the most emotional one, but it was always. It always hit.

[A]

Did you like touring?

[B]

I really loved touring. I mean, I couldn't wait to get on stage every night, and especially in the beginning. I mean, I think one of my first shows was in Santa Cruz and it was like at a skate park and it was like 400 kids packed in standing room only, like, crazy. It was so much fun. I had no idea what the fuck I was doing. Like, zero percent. I was like, I don't. I barely know how to sing, but I'm having the time of my life.

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

I had, like, had very little, like, training, but I had these songs and I was, like, gonna go for it. So it was just, like, really scrappy. And I remember, like, just feeling like my eyes were wide open and I was just gonna, like, do the best I could.

[A]

Were you nervous?

[B]

Yeah, hell yeah, I was nervous, of course. But then quickly after that, I was, like, selling out arenas.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it was this wild thing. And of course I loved it. I had the best time. And then I got a little older and, like, it became a lot. Like, it became monotonous and there wasn't so many breaks. Like, I would tour and then I would go film a movie and then I would go back to touring and then I would make a record and then I would go film a movie and then it was just like, crazy. So I think after a while I really needed a break and I was just, like, burnt out and I was, like, tired of having people on retainer and being responsible for, like, tons of people's lives to float, you know?

[A]

Right. Do you feel, though, when you were on tour, because obviously when you were in LA or you were in New York, the press would follow you around everywhere. But do you feel like when you were on tour and you were going from state to state, like, it was almost like a break from that or not at all.

[B]

I think I'm more excited to do it now with. Because I'm like, who I am and I'm. I know what I like and what I. How I enjoy spending my time. And, you know, I. I wasn't like a formed person yet then, so I just spent a ton of time in my hotel room and in the venue and I just went from, like, bus to venue to hotel room to bus, venue to hotel. Like, it wasn't. It was really fun and amazing and then it got really old.

[A]

Yeah, it's a lot.

[B]

I taught myself how to knit.

[A]

While you were on tour?

[B]

Yeah, I have a lot of grandma, like, qualities as well. Like, I own chickens and I do sourdough. And I taught myself how to, like, crochet and knit and, you know, there's. There's a lot of, like, granny things happening. I love to go to bed early.

[A]

What time do you like to go to bed?

[B]

I like to be in bed at like, 9:15.

[A]

You know what? I also feel the same exact way about myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I put on my TV show. I go right to bed.

[B]

Yeah, I. I sometimes don't even put on the TV show.

[A]

Do you have a show you're watching right now?

[B]

I'm watching a show with Luca right now, which is really fun because now I have a 13 year old son and so we can watch like more adult things together. We're watching Wayward.

[A]

Oh, I've heard it's great. Is. Do you like it?

[B]

It's interesting. Yeah. There's still a lot of questions and I'm almost at the end, so I'm a little ready to like, when are.

[A]

They gonna wrap up the question?

[B]

But Toni Collette is genius. Yeah.

[A]

Speaking of Toni Collette, have you seen Hereditary?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I miss a lot of things. Having four kids, I miss a lot of things. Like, I'm scared you're gonna ask me what I'm listening to right now.

[A]

No, no, I won't. Don't worry. Don't worry. Do you like horror movies at all or no?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, then you can't watch Hereditary.

[B]

I've told you, I'm not old enough.

[A]

Right, of course.

[B]

I'm a baby.

[A]

Right. But if you ever do find yourself watching Hereditary, ask your husband if he's ever seen it.

[B]

He's.

[A]

He's not a horror person either.

[B]

We love murder. Love mystery, love murder. Don't love, like horror.

[A]

Okay, That's Hereditary.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And in a really twisted way, Raise your voice. Walked so Hereditary could run.

[B]

Wait, what are you saying right now?

[A]

Like, what I'm telling you and, like, you're going to. And you. If you watch Hereditary, you will understand what I am talking about.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

I was literally watching your voice and I was like, this is hereditary.

[B]

Wait, she goes to like a performing arts school and sings and what?

[A]

No, no, there's just like, certain things. I can't spoil Hereditary for you.

[B]

Okay, okay, okay.

[A]

But you'll just be like, I'm dead.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Literally, like, you know what I mean? Like Hereditary. Same shit.

[B]

I need to watch. Raise your voice again.

[A]

Same shit. I swear. I was like, oh, my God, Hereditary. I know. Whoever made Hereditary watch raise your voice before a fan. Yes. They were a big, big raise your.

[B]

Voice fan also just combined genres.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

I. I know it sounds crazy, but, like, if you get it, it is like. It is so specific. Whatever.

[B]

I believe you.

[A]

You talked about earlier, really enjoying connecting with your fans. Do you feel like acting, Connecting with your fans via acting? Connecting with your fans via Singing or connecting with your fans in other like business endeavors. It's all different types of connection for you. And like, which one do you feel like the strongest with?

[B]

Well, I have to say music, right? It's you just. You're so out there and like front facing on your. With your words and your terms and your way and you know, it's just, it's exposure way differently than like going and filming someone else's script. And I think that's why I need. I took such a big break. I wasn't ready. I wasn't like in a space to like be sharing like that, you know. But it is the best way to connect, I think. And it's the highest compliment. You know, when people are like, oh, your music, this, this, or just showing excitement for like what's to come. It's. It really makes me feel good and I can't wait to, to feel that again. It's been a really long time. I've missed everybody and I'm always greeted with such like, kindness really and truly. Like when Younger got put on Netflix, it had this like whole resurgence and people were so excited to find that show. That show was always like the little engine that could. I felt like people that saw it, loved it, but like, not too many people knew about it. But it was like this weird. It went on for like seven years, was just a very long running show, you know, and people loved it. But when it was finally on Netflix like a year ago or something, and everybody thought it was like this new show, it was really fun just to have everyone like fall in love with it over again. And then, you know, the Lizzie of it all is like, it's such a high paying compliment, you know, and it's also something that travels with me in a way that I have to like send a little care to myself because you know, one of the things that people constantly are like, hey, like, oh my God, you were my entire childhood. You were my entire childhood. And like, it's such a compliment. And then also I'm like here as a 38 year old woman and I'm like, it's okay, you're okay. Don't worry about it. Like, you've done other things that they like, but that one really stood out and that's fine.

[A]

Right? Right. Like you're like, well, what about my other stuff?

[B]

A little bit. Sometimes it, sometimes it feels like that. Like you're just like, oh man, am I ever gonna snag him again? You know, But I think that, that you know, this time around with music, finally, the pressure's off, and I get to just, like, fully be myself. And I don't care.

[A]

Because you're so happy in your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Did you get sick after the rain scene in A Cinderella Story?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I'm always sick if you can't tell. I'm. I think I have, like, a tough exterior shell, and I'm, like, a little. My weakened immune system is like eggshells. But I also have four kids that I'm coming. They're like, disgusting little germs kids. Yeah.

[A]

They are so germy. It's the craziest thing.

[B]

Yeah. I want to hear your take on that. Even though you don't have kids. Like, is. I. Does it go under, like, the dog food category?

[A]

Right. So for those that are unaware, Hillary was shocked when I said, I can't have a dog because.

[B]

No, I'm just shocked by the. Because I had to fill that in.

[A]

Because, you know, those bags of dog food, it's like a freezer bag of do food that people keep in their fridge. I think it is so nasty. It bugs me out so much. And, like, I understand, like, that is what's best for the dog. And I know I can't give my dog a good life because I cannot have that anywhere near me.

[B]

What about just kibble?

[A]

Well, but so. But obviously, there's a reason people aren't feeding their dogs kibble anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, they're feeding them these, like.

[B]

Yeah, human.

[A]

Wet. Like, it's so gross.

[B]

You definitely couldn't ever have slops out.

[A]

Of the bag in a way. I've never. And every time I look at it, I'm like, fuck.

[B]

Wait. I'm trying to think of, like, human food that we would eat that would, like, slop out of the bag. You don't mess with that either. Like, what would slop? Like, macaroni and cheese.

[A]

Oh, my God. Like, when people put spaghetti in a plastic bag and bring it to a picnic. Get out of my face.

[B]

Who's doing that? Who's doing that?

[A]

You've never seen someone do that. They, like, will be like, okay, I brought spaghetti, and it's in, like, a plastic bag. You've never.

[B]

I'm like, you are defriended immediately.

[A]

I. I agree. I hate picnic food. I hate it. I don't want to go on a picnic.

[B]

First of all, spaghetti is not a picnic food.

[A]

I also think so. I think so, too. But there are people that have been like, I brought spaghetti.

[B]

You're like, you brought the one thing you had in your refrigerator to bring an offering.

[A]

I hate potlucks. I hate potlucks. I don't want a hodgepodge of what everybody thinks is good.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What is fun about that?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Let's pick a cuisine and stick to it.

[B]

Okay. I understand your. Your enthusiasm around this. Like, you don't want to do the tour around the world of food.

[A]

No, I mean, I would if it was made by one person or like, you know what I mean? Like when everyone's like, I brought them. No, no, no, no. And I hate picnics. But you know what? This is a perfect segue into can't wait. Therapist.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As you can tell, I get very angry about certain things. What are you therapist about today?

[B]

I'm. I'm pretty therapist about my, my post nasal drip situation. My. My cough. But I was thinking about this and I was like, well, I'm pretty pissed about a lot of things right now. I'm really pissed about getting gray hairs.

[A]

I don't see a single.

[B]

It's happening. It's happening. It's crazy.

[A]

The first time ever. It's happening.

[B]

No, like, so when you're pregnant, you go through like, lots of hormonal changes really fast, right? So I started to notice, like, oh, that's so weird. But I was like, just because I'm pregnant. Well, now I haven't been pregnant for like 17, 18 months and these little babies are popping up and it's crazy. And I'm just not ready. I just don't like, feel ready. And it happens. I can't wait for you to call me one day and tell me it happens.

[A]

So I actually found a gray that summer.

[B]

And what did you do? Did you yank it out?

[A]

I freaked the out. I'm 25. I'm literally. I was. I was on vacation. I woke up and I was taking a selfie and I was like, wait. Something looked really off, really shiny and it was just. And I turned the camera and it was a gray hair. Yeah, it was the craziest.

[B]

Did you pull it out?

[A]

Of course I ripped it out of my hair.

[B]

It was like, you a few.

[A]

And I was like, it's cuz I'm so stressed out all the time. I know. That's what it is. It must be what it is.

[B]

It's like sabotaging. Like, nothing about me feels ready for that at all. And like, eventually when I feel like I'm like 45, like, I think I'd be down. I'm cool with like having that and being like, not. There's not one part of me that ever wants to be 25 again. Like. Like, I just. I hope you're having the time of your life, but, like, I did it. I'm good. Yeah, I know. No part of me wants to be a different age.

[A]

Did you enjoy your 20s?

[B]

Like, could you imagine you having a baby a year ago?

[A]

No, of course not.

[B]

I think going back to, like, our previous conversations about, like, touring and having so much at a young age. Right. A lot of excitement, a lot of success, a lot of all those shiny things. Once that got old, I was, like, so ready for something to be, like, tangible in mine. Like, I really was ready to have a baby. And I always knew I wanted to be a young mom. So as quickly as that, like, came about and I felt ready for it. I didn't know anyone that had babies. None of my friends had kids. I had to, like, one be me and then go, like, put myself out there in people groups of people that I didn't know to, like, find motherhood friends and, like, learn about how to be a mom and exist in that, like, capacity.

[A]

So.

[B]

And then I also got a divorce in my 20s, so, like, I had a lot of fun and I had a lot. I felt like I was, like, trudging or floating. Like, it was, like, a very weird combination of an experience for my 20s. But, yes, I had fun.

[A]

So you said you didn't know any other people that were moms. So, like. And I feel like a lot of people don't know, like, not only is having the kid hard and taking care of the kid, but then mentally how you are as hard as well. Like, did you struggle at all with, like, not being able to, like, find other people that were experiencing, like, having a kid and raising a kid? And what was that like for you?

[B]

Yeah, learning how to nurse a baby was, like, nuts. That's always, like. I feel like I feel like having a baby. There's always, like, a cross to bear, like, and it's. You're gonna, like, struggle either getting pregnant, staying pregnant, nursing, or in, like, labor or something. There's, like, gonna be one crazy thing that you didn't expect to happen. For me, it's always nursing. It's just hard. It doesn't come easy to me. It's like this pressure of this thing that you're supposed to be really good at, and it's. It's supposed to just all happen. And, like, you feed your baby and it's like, no big deal. And it's like, that is not how it goes down it's, like, painful. It's uncomfortable. Like, I don't know, it was just a. It's. Every single time it was hard for me, and it was like this thing I wanted to be really good at, but that was hard. And then. Yeah. Finding your place in your friend group again once your. Your priorities, like, change to be your baby and, you know, everybody's still, like, going out or just doesn't have those. Like, I mean, there's not much more that's a bigger responsibility than taking care of a human life. You know what I mean? It was like this really big thing. So. Yeah, but that was so long ago. I honestly can't remember the, like, big moments that were. That were a struggle. But I know that it was there and it happened, but I found my community and put myself out there and, like, figured that all out. But. But then, yeah, it was like being single and being a mom and I was still in my 20s, right. Which would, like, gave me this sense of empowerment, but also this sense of like. Like, it's weird to be single and be a mom and be me.

[A]

You know, you just had your fourth kid and do you. When you think about your fourth pregnancy and your first pregnancy, was there certain things, like, you were so anxious about your first pregnancy that you were like, oh, my God, I can't believe I. I was so anxious about that, or I was so scared to do that, or I was like, was there. Is there stuff that you learned along the way? Throughout different pregnancies.

[B]

There'S just an ease that comes around with each, like, subsequent one where you're just like, you know, this. You know that this thing happens, you know, these feelings, you know, it's temporary. I think that's the biggest thing for me is, like, I'm such a. I'm a pretty impatient person, so I want things like this, this, this, this, this, and. And you can't rush that process. You have no control over it. And so that's like the hard. The hard thing for me. But you just realize after you do it a few times, you're like, oh, yeah, this thing happens. My body's going to change. My. This feels like this. And, you know, it's. You realize it's a blip in, like, your whole life's journey. It's Is really like a snapshot in time, and it's. And it's quick and it's fleeting, and there's, like, beauty in it and. And, you know, also, like, hardships and bittersweetness.

[A]

Do you want to get into the Tell me what's wrongs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So do you know what?

[B]

I'm so excited about the tell me what's wrongs.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wait, you know about the tell me what's wrongs?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I've been on three dates with this man from Hinge, and he has not complimented me once. He was affectionate in bed, but not when we were talk. Not when we are just talking to each other. I want him to compliment me, but I don't want to ask for it. What should I do? Slash set.

[B]

This is so. I really relate to this because I think that, like, I don't. I'm not. I don't know if it's, like, my love language, but, like, I don't. You got to be able to, like, compliment in person and, like, face to face in, like, a normal setting, not just, like, in a. In a bed setting. You know what I mean?

[A]

Like, I struggle with this as well.

[B]

I feel like if you've had three dates, that's a lot of time with someone. Don't you?

[A]

Yes. I completely agree. I really struggle with, like, looking someone in the eye and being like, you look so good, and, like, taking myself seriously. Like, I get so uncomfortable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like you have to be in the bedroom to, like, pull or like. I think maybe he's just, like, awkward. But I think, honestly, I think her saying something, like, if somebody said that to me, I'd be like, okay. Then I feel.

[B]

I'm curious to know if she's complimenting him. You know what I mean? If she's complimenting him, it opens the door for him to be able to do the same.

[A]

Okay, great point.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I don't take compliments.

[B]

But also, if she's, like, serious enough about him, then she could just be like, hey, like, this is something that I kind of need. But also, it sucks to ask for what you need. You're like, can't you just read my mind? Don't you just know what I need?

[A]

Right.

[B]

I get in this thing with my husband, too. I love to tell him he forgot to tell me he loves me. And he's like, what? You're crazy. And I'm like, I said it first today and yesterday and the day before. And he's like, you're absolutely nuts.

[A]

Do you remember the first time you guys said, I love you?

[B]

Yes. It was at Pache. Have you ever been there?

[A]

I have been to Pache. The salmon.

[B]

Salmon's the best.

[A]

Best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he said, who said it? You said it?

[B]

Or he said it he drew it on the table.

[A]

Shut up.

[B]

Yeah. And I looked down, and I was like, I know. He's so cute.

[A]

He's the best.

[B]

He's the best.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, he drew it on the table.

[A]

Did you drew I love you in crayon?

[B]

In crayon? Oh, my God. I have it. I have it somewhere. I ripped it off the table and brought it with me. I was like, you're coming with me.

[A]

And were you like, I love you, too?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I very much loved him, too. I was very excited.

[A]

Did you get the salmon?

[B]

Always.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also, don't sleep on the snapper.

[A]

I've never had it.

[B]

Yeah, you have to get the snapper because I get tired of the salmon.

[A]

Okay. I was gonna say I'm tired of the salmon.

[B]

Go with the snapper, babe.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Should we go to Pachay?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

We don't have to.

[B]

I could tell you I love you for the first time with a crayon.

[A]

Would you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, cool. I really want that.

[B]

I would love to meet you. Apache.

[A]

Don't play with me.

[B]

But we're drinking some wine.

[A]

I would.

[B]

You can get flushed. I won't.

[A]

I know. I mean, be a tomato, but, yes, I will happily do that. I have been feeling isolated from my life and friends for about a year now, and I want to be more social again. However, I'm so scared and mad that none of my friends checked in on me or even asked to hang out because I just haven't been a part of any social scene recently. I want new friends, but I'm scared to lose my old ones. What do I do? Right.

[B]

Yeah, that's a lot.

[A]

Well, I think that if they were your friends only for social settings, they weren't your friends.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Which is something I learned in Covid.

[B]

I think this goes back to my theme of, like, not wanting to be in my 20s again, because social circles are just more complicated, you know, Friendships are, like, a little more. More fickle, it seems, when you're younger and, like, going out and, like, I don't know, people's needs are, like, at the forefront of their. Like, what they want to do is in the forefront, you know? So I don't know how old this person is, but, yeah. If no one checked in on you when you were having a. A season of your life where you were like, I need to be a little more, like, insular, then that's not a good friend.

[A]

It's a bad friend.

[B]

Yeah. This is gonna sound so dorky and mom, like, but our nanny Is the cutest. I'm obsessed with her. And she's like 25 and she goes and she'll like, join a pickleball group or like, you just have to like find some things that you like to do and go like join a group and it will expand your life instead of looking for all the same things in the same places.

[A]

I couldn't agree more. My roommate is a runner and she joined Venice Run Club. Met so many people she loves through running.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just.

[B]

And then there's like a common.

[A]

Right. When I worked in music, I was very passionate about working there. And I met so many people, like co workers. That became very. A huge part of my life. And like, that was my interest. My job was my interest. And that obviously isn't the same for any everyone. But like when I had that, because I was in school, I was like, I had this internship that became my full time job. But when I had that outside interest, it became everything to me. And I met so many people and we met at my music job and like everything. Yeah. And I think just having that outside interest is crucial. I think it's just harder in college. And I feel like she might be in college.

[B]

Right. I know. Because your world is like right there in front of you and it's hard to like get out of that.

[A]

It's so hard. Like so like in college, what I felt was like every. It's just like people who say college isn't like high school is, they're lying. It's the same shit. Like everything feels so important in the moment. And so that's why these people are like not speaking to you and they're going out all the time. Because in the moment, that night out to them is the most important thing.

[B]

Yeah. I think I was trying to say that before, where it's like what you want is right in front of you at that time of your life. Right. Like just the. Your one night's plans is everything to you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, and, and when you zoom out of that, it's so silly. But that's what like growing up is like. I try to tell my son that when like he has a thing with a friend or whatever. I'm like, this feels like everything to you right now. I want you to know that I'm like honoring that feeling because I understand. But it's just gonna go away next week or like in two weeks. It's gonna be like the next thing and. But it just feels so big.

[A]

Do you. Are there moments that you like, look back in your 20s and teens, and you're like, oh, my God. In that moment, I thought this was the end and the worst thing to ever happen. And now I'm like, it doesn't even matter. And I wish I could tell myself that, like, do you have those moments as well?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Of course. I can't. I mean, if you really wanted to, I could. I could pinpoint a few, but yeah, for sure.

[A]

What's one?

[B]

I mean, I think, like a really silly one was. I think just because I, like, grew up in the time of, like, scandal and like, them wanting to, like, catch you doing something, Everybody wanted to catch me doing something bad. And I remember I was crossing the street with my friend Marco and I was in front of Kitson and it was like when jelly bags were cool, like, see through jelly bags. And a paparazzi took a picture of me and was like, there's a condom in her bag. And I don't know if it was a condom or like a valet ticket. It was a square piece of paper in my bag. And all of a sudden I got a phone call from my mom and she was like, is there a condom in your bag? And blah, blah, blah. It was like this. And I just remember feeling like, like, I'm in trouble. I'm caught. I did something bad. And I was just like a normal aged.

[A]

How old were you?

[B]

I think I was like 17 or something. Like, I'm like, I don't know. It was a condom. I think I'm being safe.

[A]

You know what, though? I actually. When I. When. So there's the accounts like Getty Image Fan club. There's like, things that post, like, throwbacks like that. Apparently that was photoshopped.

[B]

Okay. So that's what I'm saying. I can't recall. I just remember getting the phone call from my mom and being like, shit, you know, like I was a normal teenager. Like, I did normal things. And so I think that, like, of course I don't recall it all, but I remember that being a big deal was.

[A]

Was trusting people hard for you back in that day because, like, people would, like, go to the press and stuff. Because, like, that's when, like, tabloids were everything, you know? And like, blogs were everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was like, did you have to learn who to trust?

[B]

Yeah, there was a few people that I was like, oh, I think that person's not trustworthy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I've always had a really good gauge of people. I think it's like a. A little talent that I have. Like, I. I Have really good friends. And I. It doesn't take me long to, like, figure someone out and. Or just, like, figure out that someone's not for me, you know? So I didn't run in, like, a huge group of celebs and stuff. And I think that was also very good for my health back then.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I wasn't, like, spilling out the clubs with, like, other teen stars and stuff.

[A]

Right. Did you ever, like, fill out the club?

[B]

Sure did.

[A]

Yeah. Was it fine? Like, what was clubbing culture like back then?

[B]

No phones. Like, no phones. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, like, a lot of the times people would, like, run me out the back door because, like, police would be, like, coming in.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It'd be, like, underage.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it was just fun. Like, it was way. We used to spend three hours getting ready to go out.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

Can you imagine?

[A]

No.

[B]

And we wouldn't go out until, like, midnight.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

I know.

[A]

We go out at 8pm Now.

[B]

I know. Which is dreamy for me if I ever have to go out.

[A]

But not for me.

[B]

I was so responsible, though. If I had, like, something to do the next day, I would still be up at, like, 7:30, like, right. Tidying my house.

[A]

Right. Like, and then would, like, in the day. So, like, there was no Uber back then. Would you, like, call a cab or have a dd?

[B]

Yes. Yes, call a cab.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And so the cabs would, like, wait in the parking lots of, like, the, like, Ledoux or, like. Yeah, yeah. Area or whatever the club was and what, Like. Yeah. And you'd have to just, like, get in the car and it would be, like, mobs of, like, paparazzi. Yes.

[A]

And they would. Would they, like, find you back outside as well? Yeah.

[B]

Honestly, I might pay a lot of money to have one of those nights and just, like, try to relive the feeling.

[A]

Was it like, I feel like a movie star? I mean, you were a movie star.

[B]

But no, I think I was, like, trying to be, like, just act normal. Just look normal.

[A]

Right. Like, even if you were, don't let.

[B]

Him catch you in a blink.

[A]

Right, right, right. And then would you. Was it like, sometimes you would go out, and then you would wake up the next day and all the tabloids. Like, you'd walk past the tabloid and.

[B]

You would see yourself not quite that quick turnaround, but, like, on Perez Hilton or something. Yeah. You could have, like, a dick drawn on your face or something, you know, by him.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, babe.

[A]

He draw dicks on people's faces.

[B]

Yeah. You don't know this. Do you guys Know this. You're all babies.

[A]

Wait, no. I knew he, like, drew stuff, but I didn't know he was that vulgar.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And he just did it. He just ripped it and didn't care.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Damn, dude. Did you let yourself get, like, offended by that or were you like, this is stupid?

[B]

I think it was a. It depended on the day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, sometimes you were, like, loved and sometimes you weren't.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think that this time around, I, like, a little bit bracing for that element because it's so nice to see the excitement, you know, But I just don't want to put too much weight on it because things change with, like, the tides so fast, and. And everybody has a platform to make a.

[A]

A.

[B]

A statement or a comment, and so it feels a little unhinged.

[A]

I agree. And what I was going to ask you, I was so excited to talk to you about was like, what do you think the difference is in celebrity culture back then versus now in terms.

[B]

Of like, oh, I have a big one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now you can curate your entire life how you want people to see it. You couldn't do that back then. So now people have, like, tick tock, Instagram. And you can, like, curate how exactly what you want people to see and know. And back then, people just assumed and it was like, you did. You didn't get to make up your own narrative like you do now.

[A]

And you can, like, also quickly respond to things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just be like, no. Yes. No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, was there ever times where you were, like, wanting to respond to stuff and you just. Just, like, couldn't because you didn't have the platform to do so? Like, you didn't have, like, the. You didn't have, like, a blog to be like, this isn't true, or like.

[B]

Yeah, but people, like, you still really can't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I guess do that now. Like, you can say it, but people are gonna, like, assume what they want.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or, like, there's endless, like, tick tock. People.

[A]

Digging. Yes.

[B]

A journey of whatever, you know?

[A]

Yeah. It's crazy. Exactly. Correct. That just, like, made my life, by the way, in ways like Ladoo. Oh, my God, Like, I could die.

[B]

Bottle service at ladoo. Stop dancing on tables.

[A]

Was it just amazing?

[B]

The. The music was so fun. That's what I used to remember. Oh, my God. Like, like, like 50 Cent and like, Nelly and, like, you know, like, it was like early 2000s, so it was like, like Ashanti.

[A]

Right. And once you were in the club, was it kind of like this sacred space because there wasn't camera phones and there was nothing. So, yeah, we are. We can do whatever we want.

[B]

Yeah. And you'd be like, oh, that's that person's table. That's that person's table. And then like, yeah, it was. It was really funny.

[A]

I think I would pay $2 million. $2 million flat for one night like that. Like, take me back in time.

[B]

Have me be like, we're going to hide.

[A]

Stop. What was it like at the OT location?

[B]

Okay. I was just a dance class with my daughter and this. I was talking to this old neighbor that I used to have and she was talking to this friend of hers and she's like, I have to tell you. I was like, you are so familiar to me. I can't get over it. Like, I know I know you from somewhere.

[A]

Right?

[B]

She was like, I don't. And she was like, I was the head. Head server at Hyde. And I was like, I'm dead on the floor. I was like, the original Hyde. And she was like, yes. And I was like, I can't. I can't with you. This is the best.

[A]

And Hyde was like the.

[B]

Hyde was the spot.

[A]

And it was just like, would you. What was the night?

[B]

It was this big.

[A]

Yeah. That was about to say it was very small, right?

[B]

This big. Yes.

[A]

And what nights of the week were you like? Hi. Night.

[B]

I can't really remember, but never a weekend.

[A]

Obsessed. You know that doesn't happen anymore. We don't. We don't do that anymore.

[B]

I feel like it was Thursday.

[A]

I'm sure it was. Life was more fun. Wow. How do I kindly tell my friend to shut the up about her new boyfriend? I was hanging out with her and a few of my friends and she was on FaceTime with him the whole time. She's just excited. I tried to tell her to get off and she just ignored me. That's annoying. Her whole entire personality is her boyfriend now. And I don't know what to do. Do I drop her? No. Or tell her to drop her boyfriend? Literally.

[B]

You can't ask her to make that choice.

[A]

Just be like, you are. You have boyfriend goggles on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, open your eyes. Touch grass.

[B]

Right. Touch grass. Go ground. Take your shoes off.

[A]

Take. But I know the reason I'm so empathetic is because I know that one, when I get a boyfriend, I will be that way.

[B]

You will.

[A]

Don't you agree? Like, it's going to consume me. I know that.

[B]

I feel. I feel for her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that sucks. And that's annoying. And you like Yeah, I feel like you need to just let her. Let her be excited and get that, like, initial stuff out of the way. That initial excitement. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

She'll come back to you.

[A]

She'll. Oh, they always do.

[B]

But the more annoyed you act like.

[A]

You'Re gonna push her away.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You kind of just have to let your friend do it and just be there for you.

[B]

But also, you can pull back from your friend a little bit. If, like, if every time you guys are hanging out she's just on FaceTime with her boyfriend, I'd be like, right.

[A]

I'm gonna leave and show her what it's like without you a little.

[B]

And then she'll be like, why are.

[A]

You hanging out with me? And then it's like, well, you're always on the phone with your boyfriend all the time.

[B]

Yeah. Be like, I miss you. I think if you come, come, like with your heart facing forward and you're just like, I miss you. And like, every time we hang out, I don't want to also be hanging out with your boyfriend on FaceTime.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Let's have some one on one time, please. Love you so much. Thank you.

[A]

Have you ever had a friend that you're like, I hate your boyfriend so much. And like, it was like, because. And you're like, how do I be a good friend to you and still hate your boyfriend?

[B]

Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah.

[A]

And how do you.

[B]

One of my best friends, she. He actually came. Oh. It just like, hit me that, like, this is gonna be it in the world. No, no, he came. He came to a holiday at our house and he had to leave. And as he, like, left, I, like, put my door on the back and I was like, no, absolutely not. No, it's over, it's done. Like, I hate the way he speaks to you. I hate the way he talks to you. You are not you around him. Like, absolutely no. And she was like. She basically, like, was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right, you're right, you're right. She was like, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done. I was like, whoa. That was just the most insane, crazy. I understand. It's not really happened to me before, but I understand how people could get wrapped in something, like, super unhealthy because of, like, an initial, like, spark that feels really good, you know? Wow. But yeah, that has happened and it's strange.

[A]

You handled it well, though. No, no, no, no.

[B]

I am. I'm like, very Direct.

[A]

Are you the one in the friend group that's like, are you like the mom of the friend group?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Do you feel like you help take care of everyone else and like you're the one that they come to with problems?

[B]

I think that a lot of us hold that space for each other, like to where we could come with problems, but I'm just very direct, so maybe a little bit too much sometimes.

[A]

What's your star sign?

[B]

I'm a Libra.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I need like balance.

[A]

Right? You're very peaceful. You're non. Like you don't fight with people.

[B]

I don't like to fight with people, but I don't like to like have like a rub with someone or, or something and then like not work through it. That drives me crazy. It like infiltrates every aspect of my life.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

So I need to like, handle my shit.

[A]

I, I fighting with like friends is like actually the worst feeling, I think. Of all time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of all time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the only thing that tops it is a friendship breakup. I think it is. I've never had like a real breakup, so I wouldn't know. But like, I, I just think they're the worst feelings on planet Earth.

[B]

Yeah. Oh. A friendship breakup could like possibly be worse than a breakup breakup too.

[A]

I mean, I've never had a breakup breakup, but I think so too.

[B]

Yeah. Do you both suck?

[A]

Suck and then like I suck too sometimes, you know, it's like a mixture of just that. Do you remember like, at what age you like looked around your friend group and you were like, okay, I feel stable in my friend group and my friends and my love life and my social life. Do you remember like, what, when you felt that?

[B]

Probably right around my 30th birthday, like my, my now husband came back into my life at that time. And I remember looking around the table at my 30th birthday and we were like, we had dated before, but broken up and gotten back together and dated and broken up and got back together. And I remember looking around the table at my 30th birthday and being like, like almost wanting to cry, but I was having like, just like a little private moment of like how grateful I was to see the faces that were there and like all that we had been through. Because a lot of like, it was just a mixture of, you know, really long standing, deep relationships, like 17 year friendships, 20 year friendships, and then, you know, and also new faces and like new, new friend. So old and new. Whatever. I don't know what I'm trying to Say it just felt really good. And I was like, I'm on a good path. Like, sometimes you have to like friend cleanse. It's okay to edit.

[A]

It's okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But you feel like a bad person when you're doing it because you're like, I. Why am I sitting in the seat that I get to go?

[A]

But also like, you feel like editing looks like sometimes it will take something like not showing up to like, like something that they will think is like very important. Like, do you know what I mean? Like missing something to like be like the were. Things are going to be different with us now. Like, this is. I don't want to show up for you in this sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you don't show up for them in that sense. And you feel like a piece of. But it is what you need to do and you know it's what you need to do.

[B]

Yeah. So the big boy way to have that conversation is to like have the conversation before. You just don't show up for them and be like, yeah, I, I had to, I had to do that once and I was like one, you just have to eat. You. You have to like, you have to just like own it and be like, I can't show up for you in this capacity right now. It feels overwhelming and blah, blah, blah, like I need some space. And you know, I've had to do it a few times and it's like I just, I always want my side of the street to be clean. You know what I mean? I don't want to make someone feel bad right by like my actions. I'd rather have a conversation about it.

[A]

I like really struggle with confrontation like that. I am like the least. I. There are certain people in my life that I can like say how I'm feeling too. There's like two or three people, her being one of them. And when I do say it, like, we have these great conversations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I really struggle and getting there is like pain. It's painful. It's painful. It really is hard. I would consider my sister in law one of my best friends. My issue is that her and my best friend since high school hate each other. Other. My sister in law seems to keep her issues to herself for the most part. But my friend can never hold back from telling me how she feels about her. I love them both so much, but it feels so immature. I am over it. What do I do?

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

I'm so invested in that.

[B]

Whoa. Okay. Her sister in law, so married to her brother.

[A]

Yes. Her. Her sister in Law married one of.

[B]

Her best friends, but her best friend and her sister in law hate each other.

[A]

Hate each other. Like, from a while ago. Like, have you ever seen that movie you again?

[B]

No.

[A]

Basically it's about this girl is getting married and her sister in law, they've like hated each other since like they were little. And I don't remember how that movie ends or how they get through it, but that's what I'm thinking about while I hear this question.

[B]

I feel like the problem is with the friend.

[A]

Right. Because the sister in law is like all good on my end.

[B]

Yeah. You think Making it easy for her, which is nice and classy because they're in the same family together. I feel like you got to talk to your friend and be like, I love you both. Like, I want you both in my life, but you're making this really hard for me. Can you find a way?

[A]

And what if she's like. And you don't get it?

[B]

Like, I wonder what it's about.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

Like, what? We need more info.

[A]

If you're seeing this DM me with more info, like, I will catch it.

[B]

I need to know, do they date the same person? Like, but how is her best friend asking her to choose between basically family?

[A]

Now see, that's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That to me is super selfish. And I agree with you in the sense that I do feel like it is on the friend. I feel it. It's just like a gut feeling I have where it's like that friend is being selfish and maybe that, oh my God. It's like giving bridesmaids. Have you seen the movie Bridesmaids?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, that's what it's giving.

[B]

Have I seen Bridesmaids?

[A]

Like, that's what it's giving. It's like she feels. Maybe she feels like she's losing you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's. And she's holding onto this drama as a way to hold on to you.

[B]

You can't. You don't need to like, be best friends with everyone in the group.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You just have to be able to be like, civil. Civil.

[A]

I was diagnosed with OCD at 25. Now that I'm getting the help I need to manage my ocd, I find myself feeling resentful towards my parents for not helping me when I was younger. I actually feel the same way. Sorry. They always joked and would say things like, you're so ocd. But never took it seriously. I was wondering if this is something you experienced and was hoping for some advice based on your Journey with ocd. I have really bad ocd, which is why they're asking that. Did you ever struggle with anything like that? Or my, like, my. Were your parents like, like, oh, like, was therapy normal for you and your family or was it taboo?

[B]

Taboo, okay.

[A]

And did you ever feel resentful, like this person feels or were you like, that's just how they were, you know?

[B]

Because, like, of course I think every kid feels resentful of their parents. I think you can have the best parents in the world and you feel resentful somehow, some way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is just like the, the course. You know what I mean? I think that you have to take this one. But also I will just say it's. It's not in defending the parents, but, like, that's just the way it was back then. Nobody was having these conversations. There weren't these words to like, identify anxiety and these like, conditions and not like, so much course of action to like, deal with them. And it wasn't normal to put your kids in therapy and it wasn't. You know what I mean? So I feel a little bad for the parents, but also bad for the kids because they, they, they need support and they need. Honestly, I feel like I sometimes do it with my daughter and I'm like, oh my God, Banks, like your hair. Like, she, she really struggles with her hair and needing her hair to be like, perfect. And I have to do it like three times a morning. And maybe that's like a little form of ocd, I'm not sure. But I need to, like, figure out my conversation with her around it because I noticed that if we don't acknowledge it, it gets bigger and worse.

[A]

So that's what happened with me. So the issue with my OCD was that my dad was very against medication and I needed it. I desperately needed it. Like, desperately, desperately needed it. And I don't have resentment towards that because to him, everyone being on Prozac wasn't normal.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Growing up, that wasn't like, everyone's not on Prozac now. It's very normal for everyone to be on, like antidepressants and anti anxiety meds because it is very helpful. And it still will still have conversations where he still thinks I shouldn't be on it.

[B]

Well, I think it's hard for that generation to think that there's like actual imbalances in their children.

[A]

100.

[B]

They don't think it's an imbalance. They think it's a problem.

[A]

And they think it's like, he would always be like, well, just stop. Just stop. Just stop. Which would obviously lead to me, like, retreating inwards with it and it getting worse and worse and worse and worse. And I don't have resentment, but, yeah, I do wish that I had been able to get on medication earlier. What I like to remind myself in when I feel moments like that is I try to, like, remind myself what I'm grateful for in my life right now and know that if I didn't have any of that, I wouldn't be here talking to you right now. Yeah, you know, like, that's what I remind myself. It's just, like, little things like that.

[B]

Also, first of all, that was a very sweet thing to say.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

But I also have to say that you and this generation being so forthcoming about their struggles in their life is giving such a comforting space for people that, you know, aren't on TV or aren't. They're listening and they're, like, in the midst of trying to figure out their life. And it's. It's. It's so simple to say, but it's them not feeling alone. You know what I mean? And even just one generation ago, it was really tough for people to talk about their problems and their imbalances or whatever it may be. So I'm really happy that you went through a similar. Similar struggle as him and, you know, can talk about it.

[A]

Yeah, of course. I think it's like, it's. I feel like with every generation, it gets more open. So, like, it's more open than the last, but the last was more open than the one before that. And I think, like, in 10 years, we're going to look back at this generation and be like, it's crazy that we didn't talk about X, Y and Z. So I think it's just about, like, learning, and everyone's learning and everyone's. I think one thing the phones have been helpful for is, like, people find these spaces online where they're like, oh, this other person's feeling the same way as me. When I had OCD as a kid, the only thing I saw, the first thing I ever saw that I was like, oh, my God, I have that. Do you remember Dr. Drew?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I select OCD Rehab with Dr. Drew on VH1.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Was the only thing I'd ever seen that I was like, oh, my God, that's what I have. And so that was the only way. So I gave a lot of grace to, like, my parents and people, because no one knew. No one knew, like, what that Was. And now there's online communities and people on Tick Tock. I learned stuff about OCD on Tick Tock all the time. So I think as time goes on, it'll be better and better and better. But, like, you know, but for your kids that are growing up now, like, like, hopefully they're going to be so comfortable speaking about whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They feel. Because the world around them is so comfortable speaking about it. Which is what I hope at least.

[B]

Same.

[A]

Yeah. And it's so good that you're even. Like, you when you're, like, doing the hair three times and you're like, wait, like, you have that thought that used to never be a thought. Like when I used to have to, like, go back and, like, do things like, four times or whatever. Like, my dad would be like, what the are you doing?

[B]

Yeah, it's hard because your life is busy and you're. As a parent, you just have to. Of endless things to think about. Like, you're. You're constantly, like, thinking about how to get through the day and how to get everybody what they need and where they need to be and all the things. You know what I mean? And then this, like, bump in the road happens, and it's, like, frustrating, but it's got to be even more frustrating for her.

[A]

Right? That's really, like, amazing that you recognize that. Like, amazing. Like, really. That's awesome. Before I let you go, I do want to talk about your music video, which is your first music video in, like, 10 years. Yeah. What? So can you tell us anything about that? The process behind it? What's it like?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So I worked with an amazing video director. Her name's Lauren Dunn. And we had a ton of fun. I mean, it was one of those crazy days where you, like, gorilla shooting where you're just like, oh, my God. There's not a single minute of the day to break.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But the concept is, like, quite simple. And I think when you listen to the song, you'll see the. The journey of the two me's meeting. I guess, you know, the. The girl who kind of had an experience and then me now watching her. And I don't want to say there's like, satire involved. It's really just like storytelling and like meeting. Meeting yourself where you. Where you landed and kind of like looking back on an experience and like, tying a little bow around it and being like, okay. And then there's like, butterflies that are big themes in my life since metamorphosis. And there's a little sweet butterfly moment in the video, which I really love, because it's just. I feel like being where I am now, it's really nice to, like, send love back to yourself, you know, that's gone through whatever it's taken you to get wherever you are.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know? And so I like all those little nods and those little, like, gifts that you can send back to yourself to be like, hey, like, it was cool we got here.

[A]

That is really beautiful. That is really beautiful.

[B]

Thank you. I mean, by the way, it's filled with, like, amazing lighting and glam and dancing and sparkles and all the. All the fun things. Like, she did some really cool camera trickery that I don't understand. But, you know, the concept was. Was just that, and I really loved it.

[A]

But I think the idea of sending love to your younger self is something my therapist tells me all the time, and I never listen to her. But you saying that just now, like, really resonated with me.

[B]

We're all so busy, and I think we're all so used to, like, recovering quickly from anything that happens to us in our lives, because life goes by so fast. So to just, like, nod to it and remember it and, like, give it a little bit of grace is important. And it could be with, like, the big things or the small things.

[A]

I'm really excited to see it.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And I'm really excited for everyone to hear Mature, because it's amazing, and I can't wait to, like, so happy you love it. Let's do it on streaming services. Like, it's so good. I'm, like, playing the beat drop in my head right now. Yeah, it's so good.

[B]

That makes me so happy. Thank you so much. I'm sending it to you today, so.

[A]

You can just please listen. Just listen to it. Also obsessed with your little Easter egg moment for your birthday post. Oh, I caught that. I caught that.

[B]

Did you hear that? He caught that.

[A]

I caught the Easter egg. So, Hillary, what did we learn today?

[B]

We learned that I have a cough.

[A]

We've learned that you have a cough.

[B]

A tickle in my throat. What did you learn today?

[A]

I learned on the surface level that pop star Hilary Duff is back. And, like, really, really, really back. And I'm really so excited for everyone to hear the new music and experience what I've been able to experience. And I also learned that talking to you and you being like, I don't remember some of this. I was 14. Like, and then you being like, do you remember your stuff at 14? It's like, oh, just because what you were doing was different than me doesn't mean that, like, we both weren't kids and we both don't have, like, universal feelings of just, like, forgetting some that happened when we were 15.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, just because your stuff is more immortalized in like. Like. Like online and in video, it doesn't make it any easier to remember. And I think that's what I learned today.

[B]

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, you said it nicely. Sometimes I can't quite always figure that out, but you said it nicely.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's what I was like. Oh, yeah, that makes sense that she doesn't remember what that was like. She was 15. I don't remember my day to day at 15 at all.

[B]

Okay. I learned today that I love having conversations like this. It's so nice to connect. Like, I know we met before, but we don't really know each other that well, and you're just a gem. And it's so, like, it's so nice to just have a conversation that takes, like, lots of trails. And it's like, human connection is what this whole experience is about. And so I loved it. You had a good time today? Yeah.

[A]

I mean, when you went to go pee, I looked at Louise and I said, this has been a dream come true. Like, this has been so fun.

[B]

Oh, my God. Truly, I'm. I was, like, so excited to come on.

[A]

I mean, I was so excited to have you. We have to do it again.

[B]

I would love to, and anytime. You're the cutest.

[A]

Love you. I'm gonna write I love you at Pache.

[B]

We're gonna have a Pache date.

[A]

We have to have a pot. And I'll get the snapper. Snapper.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Well, Hillary, thank you for coming on the show.

[B]

Anytime.

[A]

Do you want to give a little by Pussies.

[B]

Bye, pussies. Thanks for having me.

[A]

Oh, my God. You're the season finale. I totally forgot. What?

[B]

That is an honor. I'm dead.

[A]

This is the season finale.

[B]

The finale. Pussies.

[A]

Yes. This is it. What a season. This has been. This has been crazy.

[B]

Did you get a nice, long break?

[A]

I get, like, a few months off. I think I'm gonna take a few months and.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

Do my work on other shit.

[B]

Wish we could go to Ledoux.

[A]

Don't. Seriously. I told you I'd pay $2 million. And I meant. And I meant it. You were the most incredible season finale. Like, once we came to the conclusion that you were going to be the season finale, it was the mo. It was like a puzzle piece fit. And it just has been even more better than I thought it would be. And I thought it was gonna be amazing. And I love you, so thank you. See you next season, Sam.