Session 115: Dan Levy

Summary

Therapuss with Jake Shane – Session 115: Dan Levy

April 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Therapuss with Jake Shane features Emmy-winning writer, actor, and showrunner Dan Levy (Schitt’s Creek, Big Mistakes). Returning briefly to Jake’s signature playful therapy format, the episode explores introspection, the creative process, realities of the entertainment industry, and candid mental health talk. The conversation is rich with humor, empathy, and honest sharing—not only about creating beloved TV but about self-doubt, community dynamics, and life’s small indignities. The episode also includes “Tell Me What’s Wrong,” where Dan and Jake dispense advice to listeners.

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Key Sections & Timestamps

• Pre-interview Banter (00:27–10:56)
• Interview with Dan Levy Begins (10:59)
• Faith, Comedy, and Representation in “Big Mistakes” (11:47)
• Schitt’s Creek Origins & Reality TV (18:42)
• Housewives, Reality TV, Cultural Phenomena (22:41)
• Artistic Integrity, Pressure & Hate (32:05–50:19)
• Creative Leadership & Making TV (53:04–59:49)
• Cultural Impact & Audience (59:49–63:21)
• Advice Segment: “Tell Me What’s Wrong” (67:01–88:17)
• Episode Wrap-Up & Reflections (88:19–89:14)

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Detailed Summary

1. Pre-Interview Banter: Group Therapy with Alice

[00:27–10:56]

• Jake and friend Alice recount their recent trip to Japan—hilarity (farting in the face), minor travel disasters, Muji obsessions, and Coachella planning.
• Their sibling-like dynamic highlights codependency, planning mishaps, and an ongoing joke: “We aren’t happy unless we’re upset together.”
  • Quote (05:17):
    Alice: “We aren’t happy unless we’re upset together…we can be again.”
  • Quote (06:03):
    Jake: “Every day, it was a toss up whether she would walk down to breakfast or not.”

2. Enter Dan Levy – Warmth and Stage Setting

[10:59]

• Dan is introduced (“the man, the myth, the legend”), promoting his new Netflix show, Big Mistakes.
• Immediate comfort between host and guest:
  • Quote (11:12):
    Dan: “Yeah, I feel completely comfortable.”

3. Faith, Comedy, & Thoughtful Representation

[11:47–15:46]

• Jake praises a moving line from Big Mistakes:

  • Quote (12:04):
    Jake: “You had this line: ‘God is perfect, but the people that interpret him are not.’ I thought that was really beautiful.”

• Dan insists on respectful comedy:

  • Quote (12:12):
    Dan: “The last thing I wanted was to make religion the butt of the joke…I think it’s lazy. I really wanted his relationship to faith and God to be real.”
  • He consulted a gay pastor for authenticity.

• Collaborating with Rachel Sennott to create a “brother-sister situation” for the show—Dan wanted authentic female perspective:

  • Quote (14:17):
    Dan: “I really wanted like a female voice to speak to the reality of…this character…I didn’t think it was appropriate if I just, like, created this woman and didn’t have the nuance.”

• Future of Big Mistakes:

  • Quote (15:59):
    Dan: “I have the final image of the show, many, many seasons down the line.”

• Jake’s elevator pitch:

  • Quote (16:07):
    Jake: “It’s kind of like Sopranos for gay people.” Dan: “That’s the highest compliment I’ve gotten so far.”

4. The Anatomy of a Hit: Schitt’s Creek Origins & Reality TV

[18:42–22:37]

• Dan’s reality TV background inspired Schitt’s Creek—what if the wealthy families “lost it all?”

  • Quote (19:47):
    Dan: “I was really preoccupied with this idea of showing what would happen to these families…if it all went away.”

• The show’s slow build:

  • Quote (32:18):
    Dan: “I don’t think it really took off until we had finished season six.”
  • He emphasizes the importance of narrative “foundation laying” for emotional payoff.

• Transition into reality TV talk: Hills, Laguna Beach, and the skill of Housewives stars like Kristin Cavallari and Lisa Rinna.

  • Quote (22:22):
    Dan: “When you’re doing that world, you gotta understand what game you’re playing…she was there to stir the pot.”
  • Quote (24:22):
    Dan: “Lisa Rinna is the Kristin Cavallari of Beverly Hills Housewives.”

5. Cultural Impact: The Slow-Burn Hit & TV’s Future

[32:05–36:38]

• The “instant hit” culture is at odds with how great TV develops:

  • Quote (33:33):
    Dan: “You can’t expect an audience to cry for a character when they just met them. That comes with time.”
  • Quote (34:32):
    Dan: “If we were on an actual network, we would have been canceled immediately.”

• Lessons from Schitt’s Creek, Breaking Bad, The Wilds, and Industry:

  • Great shows need time, freedom, and network support.

6. Hate, Insecurity, and Criticism—Especially From Within

[46:55–49:38]

• Dan reflects on the perils of media attention after winning awards, the feeling of being ready for backlash:

  • Quote (47:33):
    Dan: “At some point, there’s a tipping point where the media decides, ‘Okay, they’ve had enough.’”

• The pain of critique from within your community:

  • Quote (49:16):
    Dan: “Man, when was the last time a gay person set a record at the Emmys? Why are we not celebrating that?”

• Jake adds:

  • Quote (49:38):
    Jake: “The most specific hatred I get…is from another gay guy. It hurts more than anyone else saying anything to me.”

• Dan responds with empathy, linking it to a sense of competition within marginalized communities.

7. Artistic Integrity—Advice to Creators

[51:30–59:49]

• Dan’s creative philosophy:

  • Quote (51:44):
    Dan: “You just have to shut [the noise] out and care about the story you’re telling…If you earn it, that choice…even if it goes against expectations, it’s the right decision.”

• On not pandering:

  • Quote (53:46):
    Dan: “You gotta, like, fight for the things you believe in.”

• Letting your work be what you want:

  • Quote (55:26):
    Dan: “The show has to be exactly what you want it to be. Otherwise, you’re gonna go to bed and think, gosh, if I had only held out…”

8. Audience, Anomalies, and Letting Culture Catch Up

[59:49–63:21]

• The impossibility of predicting what culture will love:

  • Quote (56:33):
    Dan: “The threat of losing what you have by making some kind of mistake is an illusion.”

• Why Canada takes risks:

  • Quote (60:40):
    Dan: “Because it’s a smaller market. You can take risks.”

• On Toronto and Canadian culture—Jake and Dan reminisce about “Maple Leafs games and Tim Hortons” (61:22).

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9. Advice Segment: “Tell Me What’s Wrong”

[67:01–88:17]

Highlights:

• On insecurity about looking worse than your partner:
  • Dan (69:00): “My best friend gave me…the greatest piece of relationship advice: Would this person run to you?…If they wouldn’t, then they’re not right.”
• On “greening out” on a date (vomit story):
  • Dan (71:17): “The minute you assign a smell to a person, it’s over.”
• Karaoke-related ick:
  • Dan (74:03): “I find people who are game for karaoke to be infinitely charming. It shows a complete ease in the relationship to self…that’s incredibly attractive.”
• On roommates with a public sex kink:
  • Dan (82:58): “I’m radically honest. I don’t need to hear you moaning in your bed with your boyfriend. Shut the door.”
• Dating apps are “hell”:
  • Dan (85:03): “You have to go in [the apps] knowing that it’s one in a thousand that will pique your interest.”
• On learning you have narcolepsy as an adult:
  • Dan (86:02): “As someone who doesn’t sleep that much, it sounds kind of great…”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Creative Process:

Dan (51:30): “The minute a writer’s room starts to think about what the audience wants, they lose the plot.”

On TV Tastes and Time:

Dan (33:33): “You can’t expect an audience to cry for a character when they just met them. That comes with time.”

On Success and Backlash:

Dan (47:33): “At some point, there’s a tipping point where the media decides, ‘Okay, they’ve had enough.’”

Jake (49:38): “The most, like, specific, like, hatred I get, if I encounter it, it’s from, like, another gay guy. And it hurts more than anyone else saying anything to me.”

On Relationship Advice:

Dan (69:00): “Would this person run to you?...If they wouldn’t, then they’re not right.”

On Karaoke and Self-Acceptance:

Dan (74:03): “It shows a complete ease in the relationship to self. You are open to humiliation and embarrassment, and I find that incredibly attractive.”

On Artistic Courage:

Dan (55:18): “You can’t control anything outside of [your creative choices]…the show that you’re making is exactly what you want to make, because opinions aside, that’s all you have at the end of the day.”

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Final Reflections

[88:19–89:14]

• Jake and Dan express mutual admiration and gratitude.
  • Dan: “I would be more than happy to be a sounding board if you ever need…that was some of the best advice I’ve gotten so far. Ever.” (88:39–88:49)
• Dan’s closing lesson:
  • Dan: “It’s okay to call out a lie…There was something in me that had to proclaim, ‘I lied to you.’ And I felt better. And I felt very comforted by this conversation in a variety of ways.” (88:52–89:11)

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Takeaways

• Be honest—about your insecurities, mistakes, ambitions, and needs, to yourself and to others.
• Fight for your creative vision; don’t pander or anticipate the audience’s opinion prematurely.
• Great art and connection take time, faith, and courage; “let culture catch up.”
• Self-acceptance and vulnerability—whether in the writers’ room, on stage, or singing karaoke—are unexpectedly magnetic.
• Community support, not competition, should be the focus among marginalized or creative groups.

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This episode combines hilarious storytelling, deep creative wisdom, and candid, relatable therapy for both feelings and art. For television fans, creators, and anyone navigating the mixed messages of success, insecurity, and community, it’s a must-listen—or a must-read.

Transcript

[A]

Refreshing Wild cherry cola meets smooth cream.

[B]

The treat you deserve.

[A]

Pepsi Wild cherry and cream. Treat yourself.

[B]

Okay, Alice is here.

[C]

Hey, everyone.

[B]

Alice and I just got back from Japan together.

[C]

We did? I don't think we're fully recovered yet.

[B]

In what sense do you mean?

[C]

You know, we, like, didn't really do

[B]

it right at all.

[C]

No. And like, I kept telling you and you didn't believe me, and now I'm just like having like some post trip depression about it.

[B]

Like, what do you wish we did?

[C]

I think we could have done a lot more planning.

[B]

What was your favorite memory of me on the trip and your least favorite, like, the most angry. You were with me.

[C]

Okay. We're in Kyoto.

[B]

Huh?

[C]

It was my. It was my, like, down day. Like, I didn't want to do anything. I need to be left alone. What were you doing? And why did you fart on my face? And it was just CG had to break us up. No, I actually had to take a minute. It was. Do you remember that?

[B]

I just remember.

[C]

Oh, and should we talk about the tick tock? What Tick tock In Kyoto.

[B]

Oh, yeah, when I tried to make my tick tock.

[C]

That was just horrible.

[B]

I tried to make the Phoebe Bridgers day off in Kyoto and I kept trying to get a shot of what was it. I was trying to get your shot. And. And.

[C]

But then it was Ali shot and then it was back to me and I kept being like, just, I don't want to be in it.

[A]

I just.

[C]

I just don't.

[B]

And then we had to separate again.

[C]

And then CG was like, really just, like, handling the entire thing. She was like our like, group trip leader. And then also, like, just trying to keep the peace between all of us. But she was. She was like on my side.

[B]

She did demand quiet time when we were skiing and I got back to the room.

[C]

Yeah, that was bad. So that was definitely like the worst day because that. But why did you fart in my face for fun? It wasn't something like, we don't have that type of relationship. That's why.

[B]

Yeah, I think I was just like, manic, to be honest. I had just come from Toronto and then we were in Tokyo and then we're in Kyoto and like, like, it was true.

[C]

Brother, sister, like, annoying. This is when you first got there and, like, you know, like, you're really

[B]

excited to see each other.

[C]

Yeah, we were like, we were bouncing up and down. And then the next day, like, Jake was set on getting a Birkin.

[B]

No, I was not set on getting a Birkin. We were set on getting Alice a Birkin instead. Do you want to know what Alice did?

[A]

She spent.

[B]

You'll never believe how many hours. Four hours

[A]

in a Muji.

[B]

She spent four hours in a Muji. She showed up to dinner with two suitcases full of stuff from Muji. And I. I didn't really know about muji, but then I was in Boston and I passed a Muji, and I was like, why did she care to go to Muji in Japan for four hours? She kept texting me hour to still year.

[C]

Just wooden spoons.

[B]

That's all.

[C]

You buy so many wooden spoons.

[B]

Have you used them? Where are they?

[C]

Nope. You know, I've taken them out of the suitcase, but they're still, you know, like, they feel too good to use from Muji. So when you got your Birkin, that was a really big highlight because, like, we could all just, like, breathe. Like it had happened. Like, he made it.

[B]

But no, it wasn't my mission. It was not like, it was a

[C]

super, super high high. And then, like, just. It was tears from that.

[B]

No, that's not true. I. I was actually. I was looking for you. Huh.

[C]

And you just stumbled on the perfect.

[B]

I. It was. What was I supposed to do? And then I ran. And where were you? You were at a craft store. And then. Do you remember the photo? Face down.

[A]

No,

[C]

in the corner.

[B]

I was too afraid to put anything in the bag. And so. The Birkin was face down on the floor for two days straight. And Alice was like, you have to put stuff in it. And then we got on the train for. Okay. I would actually say the low of my trip. Was that the fight? That. Is that when Ally and I fought.

[C]

Oh, yeah, that was bad. What did. I kept. What did I keep saying to you guys?

[B]

You're being children. You're being children.

[C]

I said, why aren't you embarrassed? Yeah, you're embarrassing yourself. Ali goes, how can I embarrass myself in front of you guys? I was like, you're embarrassing.

[B]

Are we? You know, I. I would like to bring up this time. Oh, Alice and I have a real problem.

[C]

Please go ahead.

[B]

We, as some might describe it, actually, those closest to us would describe us as such. Are miserable people.

[C]

Miserable. The most unhappy it gets.

[B]

And like, we. When's the last time you felt joy? We aren't sleeping. Doesn't count because I know you were about to say when you got back from breakfast today and went back to bed.

[C]

You don't get it. We aren't happy unless we are upset together. Yes. Like we can be again. Like, we had been planning this Japan trip for months. So excited.

[B]

Here's the thing about Alice and I will go to a new place. For the first four hours of that new place, we'll say we'll manage. We've been waiting our whole lives for this. Like, this is where we're meant to be. This is why we were so unhappy before. Four hours later, we got. Alice starts threatening to book flights home. When we were away this summer, I'd wake up every day and Alice would send me a screenshot of a flight that she had put on hold for the following day and would just say, I'm leaving.

[C]

I'm leaving, period.

[B]

And then every day, it was a toss up whether she would walk down to breakfast or not.

[C]

It was like those long, long stairs. It was like, would I make it?

[B]

Sunglasses on and her flip flops. And she'd walk her tote and she'd walk in and sit down and we would just be finishing and then.

[C]

And then the meal would start again. You know, like misery.

[B]

Misery.

[C]

We. We aren't happy unless we're upset.

[B]

But you know what our plan is?

[C]

What is it?

[B]

Married, kiss on the cheek, Houses that connect underground. And that's it. What's.

[C]

What's are gonna be our matching.

[B]

We have matching Birkins walking down the aisle. What else was on our list? Tokyo misery. Coachella predictions. You know, you actually know you came on this show.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

And we gave Coachella predictions before. So you're coming. You're coming on Saturday.

[C]

Naive about our Coachella predictions.

[B]

Are you coming Friday? Are you coming Saturday?

[C]

If I can get out of my work situation, I will be coming on Friday. No, I'll be coming on Thursday. If not, I will be there, like Saturday evening.

[B]

Okay, so if you're there Saturday evening, like, you're missing Cat's eye.

[C]

No, I need to be there.

[B]

Who's your bias?

[C]

You.

[B]

Really? Mine is Laura. You know, this intro is actually for Dan Levy for Schitt's Creek. I'm surprised you've seen that show. You actually rarely watch or consume television.

[C]

That was one of the only shows I watched. I don't watch TV shows. I can't concentrate, and I would rather be on my phone.

[B]

Okay, but you want to know a random show that Alice did watch?

[C]

Oh, my God. I always have to tell about this movie I watched the other day.

[B]

What movie?

[C]

With Rachel McAdams. And is it Dylan O'? Brien?

[B]

Send help? Yeah.

[C]

Yes. Have you seen that?

[B]

No.

[C]

Hey, we need to watch it. It Is hysterical.

[B]

Wait, really?

[C]

It's a horror movie.

[B]

But is it funny?

[C]

Like, what did you think?

[A]

I actually really liked it.

[B]

Yeah, it's great, Dylan. Brian's greatness. Did you see it in theaters? You went to a movie theater?

[C]

No, it was on Apple tv.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I was about to say that would have been a really big deal. Okay, Coachella predictions.

[B]

Coachella predictions. I predict that you're gonna come Friday or Thursday night.

[C]

I thought we were gonna talk about, like, what's gonna be the most tears. What, are you gonna hit your freak out?

[B]

My freak?

[C]

When do you think you're gonna leave? How soon do you think you're going to the festival? Like, I want to know. I think who's going to be the.

[B]

Friday is going to be my day. Friday is going to be my day. It's Cat's eye, Calvin Harris disclosure. Like, yeah, Sabrina. Sabrina. Like, it's going to be like, Friday is going to be one of the best days ever. Saturday, it's Bieber, so it's obviously going to be amazing.

[C]

But what else is on Saturday?

[B]

The Strokes. Who I need to see.

[C]

Yeah, that's your bet. You've been doing this since you're like 17.

[B]

You don't think I really like the Strokes?

[C]

Of course you don't, Alice.

[B]

You don't think so.

[C]

Come on. Like, it's you.

[B]

What do you mean?

[C]

Like, okay, yeah, like, you're Bonnie Bear.

[B]

You know I like Bon Iver.

[C]

So you think Friday's gonna be your best day?

[B]

Saturday will be amazing. After Saturday though, I'm tapped.

[C]

No, it's done.

[B]

Okay, so what if you had to describe. If we had to describe each other in one? Like, like, what is like our weirdest thing that we have? Like, I like that you have to sit. Like, you know when you're sitting, you're like, oh, he hates cold food.

[C]

Oh, this is your. Your half. You have to guess.

[B]

My favorite thing that we do though is when we, Like, We stopped speaking in Japan and we only started speaking in inside jokes. Love you so much. Oh, we can't tell them about our sync ups.

[C]

That's just for us because it will jinx it.

[B]

Well, every time we sync up, something goes bad. No, it's not bad. It's. You know what it is? You're upset. I'm happy. I'm upset, you're happy. But world is at peace. When we are both upset about the same thing. When Alice and I are both upset about the same.

[C]

It's electric.

[B]

It is like. And we go back and forth for like, Two hours. Like, no one is safe.

[C]

No, no.

[B]

Like, we go there. Like, it's.

[C]

We go to the dark place, which is our happy place. Maybe.

[B]

I think so too. But Alice has watched Schitt's Creek. It's one of the two shows she's seen.

[C]

I'm obsessed. It's so good.

[B]

Well, after we finish Dream Academy, I'm watching it, so we'll watch it.

[C]

Okay. Period.

[B]

Tonight we have on Dan Levy, and Alice has made her second intro appearance.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, wait, wait. Alice really needs PR to all the company. To all the companies watching. To all the companies watching. Like, just make your play.

[C]

Listen, like, my DMS are off now. They're open. Please, I will take anything.

[B]

Please send Alice pr. She'll post it. She really wants.

[C]

I don't really know how to post things, but, like, I'll help her.

[B]

So that. That's it. Okay.

[C]

I love to yap. I'll tell everyone all about it.

[B]

All right. Enjoy the episode, Alice. I love you.

[C]

I love you.

[B]

Say bye, pussies.

[C]

Bye.

[B]

Hi, pussies. Welcome back to Therapists. Tonight we have on the man, the myth, the legend, Dan Levy, whose new show, big Mistakes, is out on Netflix April 9th.

[A]

I'm so happy to be here.

[B]

I'm so happy to have you here.

[A]

It's so cozy in here.

[B]

Do you feel. Do you feel as though you're comfortable?

[A]

Yeah, I feel completely comfortable.

[B]

Okay, cool. Yeah. How are you?

[A]

I'm so good. My sister says to say that she embarrassed herself in front of you. I want to say a couple of years ago, she came up to you and said she thought you were really funny, and then she kind of walked away.

[B]

Wait, why is that embarrassing?

[A]

Because I think she was in, like, she didn't even think about what she was doing at the time. I think she just, like, grabbed you and complimented. Which ultimately, is not a bad.

[B]

That's not a bad thing.

[A]

But I think I left feeling like, did I need to do that? Good.

[B]

I don't mind good. Well, I want to hear about big mistakes.

[A]

I'm just so happy to talk about it.

[B]

It's amazing. There was this one not to spoil. Well, it's not a spoiler, but you were in bed with your boyfriend, and you had this line that I just thought was so moving, where you said, God is perfect, but the people that interpret him are not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I thought that was really beautiful.

[A]

Thanks. You know, like, when you're in a comedy and you're trying and you're playing a pastor.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The last thing I wanted was to make religion the butt of the joke. I think it's easy. Easy. I think it's lazy. And I really wanted his relationship to faith and to God to be real.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we worked with a gay pastor to authenticate the scenes that we were writing in the church and make sure that, like, at no point was Christianity ever going to be the butt of the joke.

[B]

Right. And it wasn't.

[A]

No, it never was.

[B]

It never was. I thought. I was so moved by it. I was in. I watched it. We were. We were. We're on a road trip from Boston to New York, and I watched it, and I stopped everyone in the car, and I wouldn't shut up about it for, like, an hour. I thought it was just so.

[A]

Thanks. Well put. It's so nice to, like, have people watch something that you've just been, like, working on for a year. And no one really, like. None of my friends, none of my family, like, knew what I was doing.

[B]

They know you well.

[A]

You like squirrel away.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And I don't really like talking about work that much, so when I'm with my friends, we're not talking about. I'm not, like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I wrote a great line. Do you want me to read it for you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's not what it is. So it's nice now to, like, have the show be on its way out or, I don't know, like, when.

[B]

Well, it's about to. It might be out.

[A]

Okay. And have people see it. That's, like, the greatest thing. And, like, what you made.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes you don't like what you made, and you have to talk to people about it and find creative ways of, like.

[B]

Has that happened to you before?

[A]

I think I've been lucky in the sense that it sort of hasn't.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But friends of mine have had to go on, like, full press tours and just be like, yeah, yeah, no, this is. Yeah. Learned a lot, and we're having a great time.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How did you and Rachel Senate meet?

[A]

We met on the Idol.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

We were shooting a lot of scenes for the Idol that I thought, like, whoa, is this going to be, like. Like a really dark comeback?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because it had the potential. There was, like. It had the potential to be incredibly satirical, but I didn't know, like, so you're shooting so much, and it's A lot of. It's improvised, and you have no idea really what. What. What the tone of the show is. So there were scenes that were really funny. Rachel was hysterically funny. So when I Was like, coming up with this show. I. It's a brother sister situation. I don't like writing, especially knowing that this was gonna be like brother sister through the whole show. I really wanted, like, a female voice to speak to the reality of the lived experience of this character. I didn't think that it was, you know, appropriate if I just, like, created this woman and didn't have the nuance that it would take for a female perspective to kind of lend itself to this. This woman. And so I went to Rachel with the, like, little idea and said, would you create this with me? And she said, yes. And we kind of worked over zoom for a long time and then wrote the pilot and then sold the show. Well, it's so great.

[B]

And did you. I could hear Rachel in. In Taylor's, like, when Taylor speaks, I can hear Rachel.

[A]

I think that was the fun thing about finding Taylor was we had to find someone who was going to kind of walk into this part and not just be doing Rachel.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and, like, as soon as Taylor put herself on tape, it was clear that her interpretation of the character was going to be something different.

[B]

Are you guys planning on continuing it for another season?

[A]

Because I hope so, because I. My plan is many seasons for this show. I have a big. I know how the entire season. I know how the entire series ends.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. I have the final image of the show many, many seasons down the line. I know exactly the image I want to end on.

[B]

It's kind of like Sopranos for gay people.

[A]

That's right. That's exactly. That's the highest compliment I've gotten so far.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That is the.

[B]

Can we.

[A]

Some. Someone needs to take that and clip it.

[B]

Clip it, Clip it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what I felt that I was like.

[A]

That filled me with so much joy, I can't even tell you.

[B]

Oh, yeah. But that's what I. That's like, if you had to elevator pitch it. It's Sopranos for gay people.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yes. You live outside of the city.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're an organized crime.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

You're gay.

[A]

Completely incapable of handling any kind of criminal pressure at all.

[B]

Right. But I think. I think your character gets better at it throughout.

[A]

Well, that's the goal.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, the idea would be that these people didn't know that this crime would actually help them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's the end goal, I think, is that, like, if it never crossed their path, maybe they wouldn't have found parts of themselves that they.

[B]

Well, yes. Well, Taylor's Care. Well, yeah, I'm gonna stop spoiling. It's fantastic. It's fantastic. It's really fantastic. I watched it in one day.

[A]

Thanks. The whole thing?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The whole show?

[B]

Yeah. Yes, I did.

[A]

That's the craziest part, though. To me. You spend 13 months making a show gone in four and a half hours.

[B]

Yeah, I watched the whole thing in one day. Oh, well, I couldn't stop. I was. I was very invested.

[A]

You're like, I think one of the only people I know who has watched the whole show.

[B]

Well, it's not out yet.

[A]

Well, I know they haven't got it yet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's so nice to hear that you watched it.

[B]

Yeah, well, it's lovely. Speaking of, I was like, do I tell him this? Do I not tell him this?

[A]

No, you obviously. What is it? Tell me now.

[B]

I am on my first ever watch of Schitt's Creek. Great.

[A]

Why would you.

[B]

Because I was so ashamed that I hadn't seen it.

[A]

Yeah. But you know what? I sometimes feel like when things are things, I always.

[B]

I so intimidated.

[A]

Well, it's intimidation. But I also have this, like, relationship to, like, big cultural moments where I'm like, I'm sure I'm gonna go there. I don't need to be involved in this conversation right now. Let the dust settle. Then I'll jump in when I have a relationship to it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think that's how we have to watch things. Yeah. We can't be pressured into watching things.

[B]

That's how I feel about, like, Survivor as well. Or like, other, like.

[A]

So where are you in shits now? I'm literally. Oh, you are.

[B]

It's so.

[A]

It just keeps getting better.

[B]

Picked you up from the Amish farm.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

We just picked you up from the Amish farm.

[A]

It's so good. Oh, thanks.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

It's just. It was a joy to make and I. I find that, like, now I get fed clips and things and I'll always stop and watch it. Like, it's so sweet.

[B]

Did you pitch it to your dad or did your dad? Yes. Okay.

[A]

I had the idea. I had worked for a long time on the Hills.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

Yeah. Like, bts, no, front of camera. Hosting the after show for the Hills.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And what was that like?

[A]

It was standing on a. On a platform on the pool of the Roosevelt Hotel saying, welcome to the after show. This is the series finale of the Hills. Every season finale, we would host, so we were involved in the. We became like, very involved in the, in like the show. So I got to see a kind of like, perspective on reality television. The lives of, like, wealthy young people. So when I left, like, hosting tv, I was really preoccupied with this idea of showing what would happen to these families that we've come to, like, know and love, who are like, really well to do. What would happen if it all went away? What would the behind the scenes look like?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that's where the idea for Shits came from was like, living and breathing in reality TV for eight years of my life. And we started with Laguna Beach. We did the whole thing.

[B]

You did Laguna as well.

[A]

City. I'm shocked they didn't ask me to come and host the reunion for Laguna. Yeah.

[B]

Would you have done it 100. I thought you weren't like, I thought you didn't enjoy doing.

[A]

I didn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I still have love for, like, what got me here.

[B]

Thousand.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, I, I, I. Every day that I was hosting television, I knew that this was not in my bones what I was meant to do. And we still had a good time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's still like, who I am. But I saw that reunion and I was like, interesting. No one thought to give. Give me a call.

[B]

It would have gotten more eyeballs had you.

[A]

I don't know. I mean, is it even out?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Anyway, I think so. Oh, okay.

[B]

I, I was never a Laguna kid. I was a Hills kid.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I was a Hills kid. I really liked the Hills. And I'll never forget the series finale when they pull back the green screen. Because why?

[A]

Honestly, in my opinion, wrapped up the whole show. Because even working on the, like, the after show, part of the struggle that we had was the Hills cast was up to their antics in the press.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like US Weekly was reporting.

[B]

Yes, they were me.

[A]

Were. Could only speak about the relationships that were on the show, which happened months prior because they would shoot way in advance.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So we were in conflict with some of the MTV creatives because we had to adhere to the narratives that were going on in the show.

[B]

And you couldn't talk about the press.

[A]

The press. It was all people could talk about. But no, we couldn't talk about it.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. Do you have a favorite moment from the Hills?

[A]

What does she say? It's a Lauren Conrad line.

[B]

Oh, I'll. I forget, but I want to forget you.

[A]

The black mascara tear streaming down the face. I mean, it was, it was cinematic.

[B]

It was cinematic. That and when. Forget whose wedding they're At. But it's Lauren's last season. And Kristen pulls up to the wedding.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And Lauren gets up. Oh, my God. Like, that was cinematic.

[A]

Kristin Cavallari is a star.

[B]

A star.

[A]

She knew exactly what she was doing. She played the game perfectly. She was also, like, really fun to work with because she understood why she was there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Do you know what I mean? Like, when you're doing that world, you gotta understand what the game you're playing. And she would always come and do our show and was so like, gave us everything we wanted because she knew she was there to stir the pot.

[B]

She like, she knew how to play reality miles ahead. Yeah.

[A]

She knew exactly what was going on.

[B]

She's doing what the Housewives are doing now.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Do you watch Housewives?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What's your favorite?

[A]

Salt Lake City.

[B]

Of course. It's the greatest. But I've been watching.

[A]

I've been watching Beverly Hills.

[B]

You have?

[A]

I love Rachel Zoe.

[B]

I know. I love Rachel Zoe.

[A]

Rachel Zoe project was one was should have been drowning in Emmys.

[B]

Yeah. Well, what was it when they wasn't there like a flood and it was like Oscar week or something and all the clothes got wet.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there was always a problem. There was always, always, always, always a problem. And somehow she pulled it off.

[B]

So this season of Beverly Hills is good, you're saying?

[A]

Is it as good as like Rinna.

[B]

No. Right.

[A]

It'll never be as good as Rena ever.

[B]

Or like, what's my favorite? When Erica Jane. I forget there are some other place. And she has these. These bangs.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And she's waiting for the to cross the street.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she goes, do you remember that? Do you remember that?

[A]

Erica Jane is one of the great cast members.

[B]

One of the great her. Rena. I mean, really and truly, I think early Beverly Hills with the Richard sisters are just.

[A]

Well, it's perfect television.

[B]

That's real.

[A]

The. The Rinna line delivery with Denise Richards with the like, you are so angry.

[B]

Oh, my God. I just got. My toes are curling like. She's so good.

[A]

She should be egot.

[B]

Egot.

[A]

Just from that. Rinna's line deliveries were so extraordinary. I would like lift out of my

[B]

body when Ken gave the buddy back and she goes, thank you. Yeah.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

The whole.

[A]

Anyway, I love Lisa Rinna.

[B]

Me too. I love all. There's always the Lisa's on the house.

[A]

Lisa Rinna is the Kristen Cavallari of Beverly Hills Housewives.

[B]

What a great comp. That was biblical. What you just said that was biblical.

[A]

She knew exactly what she was doing and knew when to get out.

[B]

She got out at the perfect time. Now give me your thoughts on Salt Lake.

[A]

I just don't understand. I think because my life is so boring, I look at these reality shows and I'm like, how could. I mean, these are real life.

[B]

And have you seen the cast interact in person ever?

[A]

No, I've never seen them in person.

[B]

They fight. Ah, yeah. But Lisa Barlo is like, that's my girl. Yeah, I know Lisa Barlo. That's my girl.

[A]

She's very unbelievable voice.

[B]

She's very important to God. Like, very, very.

[A]

And you can't. I mean, the casting. How do they find these people? Like, what it.

[B]

I. I think they go. I think Andy is now going to these. Like, he's not doing the big cities anymore. He's going to, like, more niche.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Areas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they're doing Rhode island, which is apparently fantastic.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I'm sat. And I'm ready.

[A]

Well, Potomac. Salt Lake City. Like, you know, you're getting into Potomac. You're getting into niche markets.

[B]

Do you watch Traders?

[A]

I watched the Celebrity UK Celebrity Traders.

[B]

How was that?

[A]

Lovely.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Really, really fun. And I've been meaning. Anyway, this is a whole conversation about, like, how I don't know how to download the Peacock app anyway. You don't? Well, sort of. It's like, you need to. I think I did. And then I. There's a password. And I have never figured out that I don't want to reset a password.

[B]

I mean, that. That's hell, by the way.

[A]

You open the. Buy it.

[B]

Yeah. You open the gates of hell and you have to log into a streaming service on your television.

[A]

Nope, Won't do it.

[B]

You know who makes it real easy? Netflix. To actually say it's the easiest one.

[A]

It is the easiest one. Very rarely do I ever have to reset.

[B]

No, Never.

[A]

I don't even think I know my Netflix password.

[B]

You don't, because you don't need to.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Because they make it easy.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

They make.

[A]

Easily accessible.

[B]

Easily.

[A]

Click, click, click, click.

[B]

Scan the code.

[A]

Click, click. Press play.

[B]

Press play.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What are you watching right now? Besides.

[A]

Besides Beverly Hills.

[B]

Yeah. Just like, in general.

[A]

Love Story.

[B]

Me too. It's amazing.

[A]

No, it's like, it's. I think what's brilliant about Love Story is they captured a time that people are so nostalgic for. I think it's why everyone's starting to dress like Carolyn Bessette. Kennedy again and jfk.

[B]

Like, do you remember that in real time?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't remember the impact of. Of that, like, cultural moment. I was too young.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, it's major. And I love seeing, like, a Calvin Klein store from the 90s. I want to buy all those clothes.

[B]

I've been wearing Calvin Klein because of it lately.

[A]

I was shopping vintage Calvin Klein in Japan a week ago.

[B]

I'm so jealous of the way you did Japan.

[A]

You were just there, though.

[B]

I was just there. I did. We did Tokyo, Kyoto, and Niseko.

[A]

Oh, you okay? You skied?

[B]

I skied one day, and then my. I was in too much pain, and I said, I'm done. Okay, I'm done. But Tokyo, I think, might be my favorite place in the entire world.

[A]

It is my favorite place on the planet. I go every year to, like, reset my brain.

[B]

Do you go alone?

[A]

No, I go with friends always.

[B]

And. Do you.

[A]

And often the same friends. And I think it's one of those experiences where, like, it's so. Did you go by yourself?

[B]

No, I went with my friends. Yeah.

[A]

It's great. And it's. It feels like you're having, like, such a rare experience with your friends. Like, you go there. Everyone's now going to Japan, but even still, you go and feel like nobody's experiencing the joy that we're experiencing.

[B]

It's just the way of life there. I feel like streets are clean. The streets are clean.

[A]

I will say this. The impact of the girls scene when Shoshana lands at the American airport after living in Japan, and she is looking around like, what kind of hot trash mess is this situation? Nothing has encapsulated the sadness of returning from Japan more than that scene.

[B]

And, you know, they have one of my favorite needle drops of all time in that scene. It's. God, what is it? It's Past Lives by Borns.

[A]

That's right, Pat.

[B]

It's. It's so, so good. And you have a great needle drop in Big Mistakes. You have a Robin song.

[A]

Oh, yeah. We have a. We have a couple great needle drops that, like, if, you know. You know, like, also the Sleigh Bells needle drop in episode two.

[B]

It's phenomenal.

[C]

That's.

[A]

I mean, that's the fun thing for me, it's all about playlists. I put playlists together when I'm writing. I put playlists together.

[B]

You really?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Who were you listening to when you

[A]

were writing Peaches and then asked her to score the show? And she said, yes.

[B]

Thank you, Seatgeek, for Sponsoring tonight's episode. And what a perfect time because festival season has officially begun. I am making my way to the desert for Coachella yet again. And it really reminds me of how special festival season is because you it. There really is no festivals bring this sense of, like, so many different genres of music together. And to be able to be there and to see that and to see multiple artists you love in one day I think is so, so unique and special. We have many, many artists we love on the festival circuit. We have Tate McRae headlining Lollapalooza. We have Adela at Lollapalooza, Sabrina at Coachella. Charli XCX is back on the festival circuit. Olivia Dean. Like, there's so many people to see and more. So there's so many people you might not know that you can fall in love with. My favorite experience ever, like, I think is one of the most, like, highs you can feel is falling in love with an artist as they're performing their live show. That happened to me with Blue Tiger. SeatGeek makes it easy to get tickets to these festivals because you can use code therapist for 10% off. Not only that, if you click the link in the description, it will download the app and automatically add the code therapist for 10% off. In addition, there are so many people going on tour. Adela and Demi Lovato are going on tour together. Ariana is going on tour. And Sea Geek makes it easy to make sure you're getting a good deal because when you go to get a ticket, it's rated on a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being not the best, 10 being the best. So you can tell if the money you are spending is worth the seat. You can get tickets today on the site or in the app. Use code therapist for 10% off. Thank you, Seatgeek, for sponsoring tonight's episode. And I hope everybody who wants to or maybe hasn't been yet has a beautiful festival season and you can do that using SeatGeek.

[A]

I couldn't be more excited for people to watch the show because the. The score that her and Nora put together is so, like, singular and great and cool and nothing I could have ever thought about.

[B]

It's just. It really makes the show for me. It made the show so much cooler. Her score.

[A]

Well, yeah, I'm not a cool person, I think. Well, I'm not fishing for compliments.

[B]

Well, I think you're pretty cool.

[A]

Thanks. But not like that. Like, I'm. I. I could never do what she does. And I think part of the great thing about making things is that you get access to people who are, like, cooler than you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you bring these people together and you hope that the combination of all of these different perspectives will make something special. And in this case, it really did.

[B]

Did you feel that way about Schitt's Creek? Because Schitt's Creek didn't really take off until season three. Right.

[A]

I don't think it really took off until we had finished season six.

[B]

Would you think so?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I remember writing and writing the final episode of Schitt's Creek, just as I was sensing culture was, like, into it.

[B]

It's very rare that that can happen these days.

[A]

We had no interference because people don't.

[B]

People cancel shows after one season now.

[A]

Oh, they have no shows would have been canceled after three episodes.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

Yeah, I think it was so strange. Like, the choices were really strange. It wasn't a fast paced show. You have to kind of sit back and, like, get into it. And also so much of the show is foundation laying. So, like, that first season is ultimately setting up, like, who these people were in order for us to earn who they become. And we're now so obsessed with, like, if it doesn't hit in the first 48 hours, like.

[B]

Right. Burn in hell.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You.

[A]

I felt so grateful to, like, be able to tell a story because part of it, Part of why I think people love Schitt's Creek is you earn the emotional turns.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Never a point where we're asking an audience member to, like, care where we haven't earned that emotional turn.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you got to lay the foundation for that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can't expect an audience to cry for a character when they just met them. That comes with time. But time is the hardest thing to find now in entertainment.

[B]

How did you feel as though you got lucky enough to have those seasons before it took off?

[A]

Well, we were just lucky in the sense that we had a network in Canada that really needed us and we had a teeny, tiny, teeny, teeny, tiny network in America that needed us.

[B]

What network was it in America?

[A]

It was called Pop tv.

[B]

That's what shit's crazy.

[A]

It was the former TV Guide network.

[B]

I remember TV Guide.

[A]

That's right. It was like a. It was a standard definition, like, like, grid of what television was on tv. It wasn't. By the time it flipped over to pop and we were on tv, we were in standard definition in most homes when, like, standard definition when people were an easy. We were in. Yeah. Your TV was hd we were like. It was like watching an episode of Sex in the City.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We just found a spot that, like, we found places that wanted us, and that's how we were able to stay on the air. I think if we were on an actual network, we would have been canceled immediately.

[B]

It's so crazy to hear that, because when I. When I think of a show like that that takes time to grow, I also think of, like, Breaking Bad. Breaking Bad didn't take off until season three. Season three, season four. And it's like, if only we gave that same grace to all these new shows coming out.

[A]

I think you have to believe in people. That, to me, is like, we've lost that relationship between creators and the space to, like, try things because it's such an immediate. Like, if it doesn't hit instantly, it's done. But think about how many. Think about the potential of how many shows or, you know, I don't know. That just didn't get the chance because God forbid their first season be still trying to figure out what it is like, the Wilds.

[B]

Have you ever seen the Wilds? No. It's Sarah Pigeon. Oh, yes. And it's. It's. I think it was only on for two seasons. And. And that third season, because the first season was the girls were stranded on this island. The second season where these boys were stranded on this island, and the third season was going to merge everyone, and it got canceled before they could do it. I know.

[A]

I think Industry is the same way.

[B]

I mean, talk about my favorite season four of industry. I am not caught up yet. Is it amazing?

[A]

What?

[B]

No, I. I'm not caught. Wait, are they on season five right now or four? No, four. Yeah. I'm not caught up.

[A]

You haven't seen the last season of Industry.

[B]

I have not. I'm waiting to.

[A]

I don't want to bring shame into this room.

[B]

No. Well, it's here already.

[A]

I don't want to bring it in. I don't want you to feel it.

[B]

Is it that good? Because I watch seasons one through three, and she's seen it twice last season

[A]

with Industry, Episode two of the last season.

[B]

Oh, I've Heard. I've Heard, I've Heard, I've Heard is

[A]

one of the most. It's masterful episodes of TV I think I've ever seen. You think Emmy time, If it's not me time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I will be out there with a sign boycotting justice for industry. The cat. Also, you're dealing with, like, a young cast of actors that are in there, like, Just crushing.

[B]

Yeah. It's electric.

[A]

It's. It's also, like. It's the hottest TV on tv.

[B]

I know.

[A]

It's so hot.

[B]

I'm like, wow. I want to hook up with people and, like, do drugs and dance.

[A]

Harrington, are you out of your mind?

[B]

Doesn't he turn, like, slightly, a little bit?

[A]

Yeah, they, like. Yeah, they go there. Ish.

[B]

That's gonna.

[A]

Not enough for me, but.

[B]

Yeah, that's gonna send me into psychosis.

[A]

It really. I. I was alone when I watched it.

[B]

I was. That was like.

[A]

I couldn't be with anyone when I watched that episode.

[B]

That's like. When I watched. He did Rivalry and, like, I remember life preheated rivalry and life post. And my friend. My best friend, who's gay, called me and said, because it was, you know those two weeks in winter where it's, like, December. It's like, between New Year's and Christmas, and, like, it's just a very, like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No man's land.

[B]

No man's land. He said, jake, just like, maybe I would. If you could watch. He did Rivalry after New Year's. I really think for you, like, you would.

[A]

You would.

[B]

You would need that. Like, just, like, you can't be. You can't watch this and then be alone.

[A]

I see.

[B]

And I. And I did.

[A]

And he was more concerned about the aftermath of my mental health.

[B]

And Louise calls it the great crash out of 2026.

[A]

It was everyone's great crash out.

[B]

I think it was. It was. I think I was put into genuine psychosis.

[A]

Okay. It's fun. It's definitely fun to play with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I had a really good time with the, like, romance and shits. We. We had some, like, real. You're about to find out.

[B]

I know. I'm so excited.

[A]

We had a great time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Would you. Did you guys do a lot of improv in that show?

[A]

No.

[B]

In Schitt's Creek, you didn't do a lot of improv.

[A]

We would improvise, like, maybe the. The way into a scene or the way out, but we would never, like, the scenes were written.

[B]

Do you. What was a scene that you remember that, like, Catherine, like, made you break break?

[A]

It was the very first episode that we were shooting, and I think at one point, she. She's. She's lost a tennis bracelet.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And she's screaming around the motel room looking for a tennis bracelet. And again, we didn't know. When Annie and I walked into that room, we didn't know what she would do. So we walked into the room. And at one point, she starts screaming and she opens a drawer trying to look for this tennis bracelet. And I guess there had happened to be a light bulb from, like, a crew member that was switching a light bulb out. So it just, like. It wasn't a planted prop. It was just something she found. And she pulled out this light bulb and started screaming at the light bulb. And if you go back and watch that episode, you can see. See that I'm doing, like, what's that Bill Hader character on SNL where he's just, like, constantly. Which one? Stefan. Stefan. I'm Stefaning through that entire scene just because I couldn't. And then it got to a point where it's like, I think it's funny that characters find other characters in TV funny.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I started just leaning into the fact that, like, if I find this funny.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

Then maybe David found this funny. And maybe the audience gets to, like, have a bit of a. Is it the actor or is it the character? But I think it's like, we laugh at our friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So much of comedy, you notice that the characters themselves don't think that the other person is. What they're doing is funny. So there was this added layer for all of us where I just started saying to people, like, if you think it's. If you're gonna laugh, laugh.

[B]

Right. Just laugh.

[A]

Your character will find it funny.

[B]

Wow. I think that's what really has helped make the show so unique, because that actually is something I picked up on. And that's why when you said you don't break, I'm like you. Because I feel like sometimes when I'm watching.

[A]

No, it's a cheat if you. If.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

If. If breaking is part of your character, then you don't break.

[B]

My favorite thing.

[A]

I also just totally lied to your face when I said I don't break that often.

[B]

I know you did.

[A]

It was a lie.

[B]

I know you did.

[A]

We're getting around to the fact that I just lied, and I am reconciling that.

[B]

No, it's okay. My thing with lying is if you say you lied, then it's not a lie anymore.

[A]

Well, I also think it's like, sometimes you say something you believe were the case, and it's a lie.

[B]

Oh. Because you weren't speaking like a true liar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're speaking like a true liar.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I just lied.

[B]

Yeah. And that's okay.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

And that's okay.

[A]

I feel accepted.

[B]

That's why I told you I was on my first watch of shit, I called Louise and I said, louise, I'm so anxious that I have not seen this show in full. And she's like, I think you should just tell him that you're on your first watch of it. So that's me doing this right now, 100%.

[A]

But I also don't.

[B]

I know you don't care. Yeah, but they will.

[A]

Will they?

[B]

I don't know. Yes. People ride for that show. Like. Like, that show is like. When I bring up Schitt's Creek to people, they're like, that show has gotten me through the hardest times of my entire life. Like, I've never seen such passion around a show before.

[A]

I think it was. I mean, came to life in the pandemic. And it's about a family that's forced into living in small, close quarters with each other and essentially into a kind of quarantine. So I think there was a combination of, like, the show dropping at a point when people themselves could see bits of their own relationships in it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I do think that the circumstance, as unfortunate as it was, helped a layer of connection exist that might not have been there had the show been out when there wasn't.

[B]

Yeah. The pandemic.

[A]

Global plague.

[B]

The pandemic. It's so weird thinking about the pandemic, because in parts, I'm like, it's. It's weird to say I'm grateful for it.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[B]

But in, like, a weird way, I kind of.

[A]

Oh. There were days where I was like, this is heaven. I mean, it wasn't. Obviously.

[B]

Right. It was.

[A]

But as an introvert.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who likes to spend a lot of time at home.

[B]

You're an introvert.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Wow. I did not hear that about you socially. Okay. I had. I've never in my life had real social anxiety. And the other night I went out.

[A]

What does that feel like?

[B]

I felt like I was walking into a room.

[A]

Oh, this is the other night when you did experience social anxiety.

[B]

I was wondering what it feels like to not. You're just kind of like.

[A]

Like, if someone said, I'm at a party. Yeah. And you didn't know anyone at this party, you wouldn't think twice about. Like, when I arrive at this party, I need to instantly know where those people are so that I don't have to. Like, what if people look at me walking into this party and be like, who is this person? Why are they here? So that's what goes on in my mind.

[B]

So those thoughts exist for everyone, but for people without really intense social anxiety. I think the thought is more passing than concrete, right? So, like, I have that thought, but then I just do it.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

As opposed to the other night. I was looking around and I was like, I need to get the fuck out of here.

[A]

Anyway, it was a party, right?

[B]

And I walked into the room and I was fine for most of the night. And then all of a sudden, everyone was dancing, and I was looking at each group of people dancing. And how many people were there?

[A]

Set the scene?

[B]

Like a hundred. And I. And I couldn't be like, Yeah, I couldn't be like, I don't like which group do I dance with? And I was too, like, conscious of my own being that I was like, you know what? This is the first time I'm really experiencing the social anxiety that people speak of. I have to go home.

[A]

I also give you credit for having more than one group that you could dance with.

[B]

No, but I couldn't. I don't think I. I mean, I could have. I could have walked up and been like, hey, it's me.

[A]

I feel like you of all people can do that.

[B]

Really? Well, yes, I think short and unassuming.

[A]

No, I think you're incredibly charming and people want to be around you.

[B]

Wow, thank you so much.

[A]

Well, you know that.

[B]

No, I. Some. I really don't. Sometimes.

[A]

Okay. Sometimes I really.

[B]

No, I really. I really. Sometimes you do that. I really feel very annoying sometimes. Did you. Have you ever felt that way in your life?

[A]

I feel annoying every single day.

[B]

I really feel. And then it's hard when people online are like, no, you are annoying. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. So read one comment. You'll see people, like, saying the nicest things. And then one comment that speaks to a thought you've actually had, and you're like, that's it. That person with an anonymous. Yeah, bot.

[B]

They got me. They got me.

[A]

They know exactly who I am.

[B]

It's that scene in Girls where Lena Dunham says, everything you could have possibly. You could possibly say to me, I've said to myself already in the last 10 minutes. And that's. That's. But I. And I really felt that the other week, like, I was reading stuff and I was like, oh, I feel that way.

[A]

I also think that the press cycle at this point is such a tornado that if. If something works, like, for shits.

[B]

We.

[A]

We were. I mean, you know, you get into the kind of cycle of. Of people wanting to talk to you because your show's a hit, and then the more you talk, the more you speak, and then the more you speak, the more you're aware of yourself speaking. And then by the end of it, I was so kind of embarrassed of the level of exposure that I had.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That it's almost permanently scarred my relationship to, like, myself in a way. A lot of the therapy that I'm doing is like, no, you're not embarrassing.

[B]

Was there a moment that really stuck with you?

[A]

No, you had a moment, but it. You can see it happen. Like, someone goes from, like, making something that's cool that catches on. Then there's the, like, photo shoot cycle, where suddenly it's like, a million photo shoots, and now we're whatever. Then you go through, like, a cycle of talking about your work, and when you talk about your work and people pedestalize your work, then you start to talk about the, like, how profound your work is, which you've never thought about before. Then you start to talk about, okay, well, like, I guess I am doing something important. And then when the dust settles of all of it, you're like, what a clown.

[B]

Really?

[A]

You feel for me, at least? Yeah. I think I walked away from when the Emmys happened. And we. We want. I mean, I said it in my Emmy speech, which breaks my heart.

[B]

What'd you say?

[A]

I actually said when I won my last Emmy of the night. Can't believe. I can't believe. That's a sentence.

[B]

That was awesome.

[A]

I think I said. I. I apologized for just being. Because I was so aware that this was the moment when people were going to say, okay, they have too much.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I was aware of it in real time. And it's one of the big heartbreaks was the fact that culture or the way that we respond to people's success can sometimes be vicious after a certain point. It's like you see it with people. It's like, we lift them up, we lift them up. We lift them up, we lift them up. And then at some point, there's a tipping point where the media decides, okay, they've had enough.

[B]

Why do you think that is?

[A]

Because you can't. The balloon can't stay afloat forever.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just how this works. And I think I remember in that moment feeling insecure. And then I heard a conversation that was happening publicly. There was a podcast that happened where someone was saying, like, that I didn't deserve all that I got. And I thought, again, it's that moment of, like, oh, someone sees me.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it took me a long time to realize I did deserve what I got. And Also, I was hearing this from another gay person, and I thought, more than anything else, if I win, you win.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I get to make more things, you get to do more things. The more that culture sees us succeeding, the more they want to give us things. And it's very shortsighted because it's like, this is a hit. Let's recreate it. But I remember at the time thinking, like, damn, okay. I mean, it's a. It's a. It's a take. You're entitled to it.

[B]

Gays are really hard on.

[A]

But, like, man, when was the last time, like, a gay person set a record at the Emmys?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Why is. Why are we not celebrating that? And I'm not asking people to, like, blindly support my work, but I always think when there's a real success that is part of the community, like, that is a win for all of us.

[B]

I also find that, like, the most, like, specific, like, hate hatred I get, if I. If I encounter it, it's from, like, another gay guy. Yeah. And I really. I don't know what it is, and it really. It hurts more than anyone else saying anything to me, and I don't know why.

[A]

I think it's because we're still under the. It's like, a lot of my, like, actress friends say that some of the. Some of the worst moments in their lives where they felt the worst came from other women. And you look at a cultural stance, like, I think it's a cultural thing. I think we are indoctrinated to believe that there's only so many spaces for people who are not straight and white and male.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so everyone else has kind of grown up with this sort of belief that, like, if I happen to make it, it's against the odds, and I don't want to lose that.

[B]

And you've taken the spot that could have been mine.

[A]

I have to believe that it's a part of that, which is why I have a lot of empathy for it, because I think, well, this is all part of the culture being marginalized is this belief that, like, I'm going to start to feel insecure if someone like me succeeds and it's not me.

[B]

Did you bring any of that insight into creating big mistakes and your character and big mistakes?

[A]

No, I. No, I. I just. For me, it's always about, like, tell the story, focus on the story. It's. It's what worked for me on shits. I never thought about the audience. I never thought about other people's expectations. I think the minute a Writer's room starts to think about what the audience wants, they lose the plot.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I think a lot of times what the character wants and needs is not what the audience wants for the character. And it's hard to keep the noise out.

[B]

How do you practice that?

[A]

You just have to shut it out and care about the story you're telling. You know what I mean? Like, you know more about the story you're telling than anyone else. You know why a character should do something or say something or make the decisions they make? Because it's a guttural, instinctual thing. Like, so for an audience who's like, gosh, I really hope they stay together sometimes it doesn't benefit the character for them to stay together. It benefits the audience. But if you earn it, that choice, I mean, we made some decisions on shits that I think went against audience expectations, but I have to believe they were the right decisions.

[B]

Right. It's like, I mean, this is so, so minor, but it's like when they were looking for David and I thought he was going to be in New York and he was on an Amish farm.

[A]

No, he's too scared to be in New York. He would never have gone.

[B]

But I would assume that they were going to New York.

[A]

No.

[B]

And he is.

[A]

He did not have the savvy to get to New York. Unfortunately, him and his like Helmet Lang Mohawk hoodie could only get so far again.

[B]

They. They got somewhere.

[A]

They did get somewhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I just like, thanks for saying that because I am working on a show for the first time. Okay.

[A]

Oh, wait, you're working with Paul Briganti?

[B]

I love Paul. Yes.

[A]

Paul is the greatest of all time.

[B]

I know. He's amazing. He's amazing. I met him on a commercial shoot

[A]

and like, couldn't be nicer, couldn't be more generous of spirit.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he's such a cheerleader and a champion for like, ideas that he loves. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And he. The way we got to making the show was I was like, basically very self deprecating in, like my life and my experience. He was like, this is so funny. This is a show. And now my worry is that all I can think about is what people are going to think of it.

[A]

You can't.

[B]

I know. And so you just saying that just now, here's the key.

[A]

You got to come out of the experience with closure. And the only way you can win is if you do, if you make exactly what you want to make. Because at the end of the day, if people don't like it, fine. But the biggest heartbreak is if you compromise your idea and dilute it to the point where it's accessible to people or you've made concessions for whoever's making it, like, you can't get that back. You can't get the idea of, like, when you put your head on. On your pillow at night. The show has to be exactly what you want to make it, like, what you want it to be. Otherwise, you're gonna go to bed and think, gosh, if I had only held out, if I had only fought more, maybe it would have been different. You gotta, like, fight for the things you believe in because that's.

[B]

That's it, Right. Have you ever had that experience? Yeah, of course.

[A]

You have it all the time. I think that's part of making tv. You're, you know, in. In a creative process with people. They have the things that they want to be worked in. You have the things that you want to be worked in. I also have a real, like. I don't like pandering. And I think we're in this. We're in a culture now where, like, nobody has faith in the audience. Everyone believes that we are, like, on four different screens, and maybe we are. I don't want to make TV for someone who's not watching my show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I want to make TV that makes me feel good and makes me laugh because there, again, there's closure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've made the thing you want to make great. If it works. If it doesn't work, that is outside of the world of you making the show you want to make. So shut the doors and make sure that the show that you're making right now is exactly what you want to make, because opinions aside, that's all you have at the end of the day.

[B]

I know. I think for me, the. What I get scared about is because I came up on the Internet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the in and like, cancel culture is so, like, like, like pariah based. That, like, I'm so scared that if someone hates what I do and that they hate something I've said or hate something I do, that I will lose my whole job and I'll lose everything. And so that's why I constantly think about, like, the audience is because I'm like, well, number one, I care if they like it because I care if people like me. And number two is I'm scared if they don't like it and they don't like it enough that I'll get in trouble and I'll lose everything.

[A]

Well, that I appreciate Your thought processes. It is practically impossible that that would be the case. You will never lose your job. You're too good at your job to lose your job. It's about protecting your idea. People like what they don't know that they want think about anything that's broken in culture. You could not have predicted it. There's no algorithmic sort of math equation that could have led to any of the things we have come to really, really love. I've been there. I know exactly what you're talking about.

[B]

You do?

[A]

The threat of, like, losing what you have by making some kind of mistake is an illusion.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

I think so because I think if you actually believed that, you would be pedestalizing your ego in a way that is unhealthy.

[B]

Okay, so I'm a little stupid. So what do you mean by pedal?

[A]

Like, meaning? I don't even know what that means. I was just like. I mean. Well, no, I do. You would be prioritizing your. You would be putting your ego on a pedestal being like, I care about what people think of me. I care about this being a success. I can. All of those things are fine, but they can't be what drives you through this show. Right again. Everything that I have loved has been an anomaly, including my own show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Nobody in America wanted to make Schitt's Creek. We took it out to every network, every streaming service. No, no, no, no. Across the board.

[B]

Even with Catherine attached.

[A]

Oh, yeah, wow. Nobody wanted to make it. So we made it on our own up in Canada with no intervention of Create a People's. Well, the first 10 seconds have to be really, really action packed because you have to rope your audience in. We were free, and all we did was make a show we wanted to watch and wanted to be a part of. That's it. You can't control anything outside of that. And it worked. And now people are wanting to make. What's the next Schitt's Creek? Yeah, it's not about what the next Schitt's Creek is. It's about prioritizing people whose ideas are good and not being scared that they're not mainstream enough for an audience to understand. Let the audience catch up. Because the act of an audience playing catch up with something you're making only builds stronger ties to the thing that you're making.

[B]

It just like, I feel like all goes back to, like, if you believe in something and you believe it's good and you don't seem to. Don't seem bothered by other opinions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People it's like, I always relate it to when you find someone annoying. You meet someone, you're like, this person is so annoying. And then you're with them for like a few days, and then the next day they're still annoying, but they're still doing the thing that annoyed you. But they haven't changed. Like, they haven't changed based on the fact that you think they're annoying. So then you start to respect them and then you start to appreciate them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, that's how I feel it. It is with culture and people in culture.

[A]

Yeah. You have to just know that you made the show you want to make. That's it. That's it.

[B]

Well, thank you.

[A]

And you should fight tooth and nail to make sure that you preserve whatever it is you want to make.

[B]

I will.

[A]

And there is. There should be a line that you draw in terms of if someone says, well, what about. Could we just. You have to know where the line is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because once you cross that line, it become. It doesn't become your show anymore. You're making something else for other.

[B]

For not myself.

[A]

Who knows.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who? I don't even think they know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're making television for an audience that nobody know. I mean, no one could have seen heated rivalry coming.

[B]

Right. And that. Another. Think about that pitch. Yeah.

[A]

And now everyone's like Gabe Butts kissing.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

It's not about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was the idea. And the idea was not something that anyone wanted to make outside of Canada.

[B]

Canada's always with it. Well, they. They.

[A]

Because it's a smaller market. You can take risks.

[B]

You grew up in Canada, right? Toronto.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you. Do you miss it?

[A]

I do miss it. I was just back there.

[B]

It's wonderful.

[A]

I saw you wearing a maple leaf. Maple leaf jersey.

[B]

We were where?

[A]

How did we.

[B]

I was on. It was filming something, and they brought all the cast to a Maple Leafs game. Maple Leafs game during the blizzard. Like, do you remember the blizzard that just happened? So it was like, oh, my God. It was like, honestly, like, looking back at it, one of the best times of my life. Like, we were like walking outside in this blizzard to this Maple Leafs game. I felt like I was in heated rivalry. And then, like, I was, like, talking to this guy. I'm so male centered. So the fact that I was, like, in conversation with a guy while this was all happening.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Bliss was bliss.

[A]

Yeah, it was bliss. Bliss.

[B]

And I love Canada. I love everyone. So nice there. Tim Hortons.

[A]

Tim Hortons rulers. What crueler.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

It's a donut.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's like a twisted sort of. How do you describe a crueler. It's like a twisted donut, but it has a different consistency.

[B]

You Canadian, too?

[A]

Well, you know, I love Canada honorarily, I guess.

[B]

Now, Canada is the best. The food's great. People are great.

[A]

Yeah. Toronto's great.

[B]

Toronto's great. It's where they went in the Handmaid's Tale when everyone was being held captive here.

[A]

That is right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Haven.

[B]

It was.

[A]

It's.

[B]

Canada is a safe haven. This episode of Therapist is brought to you by booking.combooking. yeah. Well, as I said in SeatGeek, it is festival season, which means you might be traveling. It is also summer, so you are hopefully traveling if you are able to. And booking.com makes traveling as easy as possible. It makes the basis of your trip, which is finding a place to stay and finding a place to sleep easy, especially if you are traveling with a group. Everybody has different preferences. Like, some may want a pool, some may want walking distance, some may want a tub, some may want a shower. And you can put all that in. And booking.com will help you find the perfect place or hotel for your stay. It also can help you, like, fully round out your trip if you need to rent a car. Like, whatever you need. Booking.com has it. As I've said a million and one times, it has really helped my travels. I know me and my friends are planning. Planning summer trips right now, and we are using booking.com because we are all very particular in where we like to stay and what we need. And I've said this before, but when I was on tour, Matt would literally, like, we'd pull up to a city and Matt would book it on booking.com he would have our preferences, find a hotel and book it. And it really just, like, takes away that anxiety from exploring a new place. So it, like, almost allows you to fully immerse yourself into where you're going because you don't need to worry about where you're staying because booking.com has it covered. Find exactly what you're booking for at booking.combooking.

[A]

yeah.

[B]

Book today on the site or in the app. Dan, what are you therapist about today?

[A]

I believe there should be one flight

[B]

a day

[A]

that does not have children on it.

[B]

Yeah. And so, like, what do you mean by that? Please don't. No, I. I agree. I agree. I see.

[A]

Listen, I love children. I would just. I. I think. And this has. I understand the plight of a. Of parents with young Kids. My sister has a 3 year old. Totally understand not being lacking in empathy for parents. I think there should just be one.

[B]

We matter flight a day. Yeah.

[A]

Where if you are spending your hard earned money on an airline seat that you don't have a screaming baby beside you. I'm not saying take them off the airplanes. I'm simply saying. Or even one a week. I'll take one a week.

[B]

Give me. I preferred your one a day.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like the concept of having. And this is again, I feel like people are so this is a real hot button issue.

[B]

Oh, believe me, I know.

[A]

So let me preface that. Or I guess I've already said it. I love children. Children. Give me one flight.

[B]

One flight. I mean I was on a flight,

[A]

especially a long haul. If it's an overnight and you're spending the big money and all you want to do is sleep or you're on a. On a red eye.

[B]

And my thing was I flew Saturday morning from New York to la. Yeah. And I. When I have a morning flight, I'm doing that tonight.

[A]

And I'm on a red eye to New York tonight.

[B]

Well, I don't sleep before like my morning flights. Like if I, if I have. I had a.

[A]

Of course. Because you have to. Anxiety of getting up.

[B]

Yes, yes. The anxiety of getting out all night. And I was like, you know what? Well, that's where we differ.

[A]

But I understand the anxiety.

[B]

I was shaking back and forth apartment like desperately trying to keep my eyes open because I was so tired. But I knew that if I closed my eyes, I wouldn't get up.

[A]

Well, there's also nothing more terrifying than missing a flight.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or running through an airport.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I wish it on nobody.

[B]

Hey. So the airports right now are hell. I get to JFK at 8am People.

[A]

What time's your flight?

[B]

8am People with. People with kids, like, please let me through. I'm like, oh my God, I'm in. Like they're trying to get into the bunker.

[A]

End of the end of the world.

[B]

It literally felt like the end of time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's Hunger Games.

[B]

It is Hunger Games. But I got on the flight. I'm finally. I'm like, I haven't slept. I had the Paul McCartney show that night and I was like, I need to be. I need to sleep this entire flight so I can fully experience and not be tired. I close my eyes screaming, baby, that's it.

[A]

The whole flight.

[B]

And I said, why?

[A]

I at one point had a child doing this on the chair.

[B]

Well, that's just disrespectful from the parent.

[A]

The parents are sitting right beside me, and I'm now looking at this kid, looking at the parents, looking back to the kid, looking back to the parents. And finally I just said, are you gonna do something? I feel. I mean, I feel great about everyone having kids. I do not want them for myself.

[B]

I don't know if I do. If I do, I do want to. A boy and a girl.

[A]

Oh, wow, you're really committing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

See?

[B]

Adorin Annabelle. We've predetermined the names Theo for short and Anna. Anna. My friend's name. Growing up, my. One of my best friends names was Anna Annabelle, and we would call her Anna B. Oh, I thought it was so chic. Yeah. And Theodore just feels like a Kennedy name.

[A]

Right. So you're raising royalty.

[B]

That's what I hope to do, yes.

[A]

Okay, Understood.

[B]

Okay. So I don't know if you've seen this show before, but we do a section called tell me what's wrongs, where the pussies submit questions and we give them advice.

[C]

Great.

[B]

Are you down for that?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

My girlfriend is totally out of my league, and it's finally starting to catch up to me. We've been dating for 15 months now, and I think she's starting to notice that she could do a lot better. Looks wise help. I know. It's like a. You just have to have confidence. Blah, blah, blah. I don't want to hear that. I need active steps to prevent a breakup.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Well, that was honest.

[A]

That was honest. And from an outsider's perspective, if your partner is starting to realize that they're better looking than you, and that is, to them, a form of currency. I hate to break it, but it's not the right fit. I don't want that from a partner. I don't want to be in a relationship where that's fear based.

[B]

I think that whoever this person is, their. Their lack of confidence is making them see things that are possibly not there.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Is what I think. And then maybe those are. Like, Sometimes I've had to reconcile with the fact that I'm having these fears because those are my values.

[A]

Real.

[B]

You know what I mean? I'm like. I've been like, well, this person's gonna leave me because I'm not attractive enough. And then I'm like, but they've never said that or showed that to me. I'm thinking that. Because would I do that? Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Like, so what are your steps for this person? Then help. What kind of help?

[B]

Just help.

[A]

Like just general help.

[B]

Just help. Okay. Like sit with what. Like how. What I just sat with. I would journal.

[A]

Right. And honestly really determine whether it's in your head or a real life thing.

[B]

It's just a little awkward because this person can't go to their partner and be like, do you think I'm ugly? I would actually really start to note. But they can smell it off of you. They can smell.

[A]

My best friend gave me the greatest piece of relationship advice that changed my whole life. And it's very simple. And he asked me one question. I was in a one of many toxic relationships. And he said, would this person run to you?

[B]

In what?

[A]

Doesn't matter. Not walk. Run. Would this person run to you? Because if they wouldn't, then they're not. Right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think that sums it right up and it is the just he's just not that into you theory. I think we all know what we're dealing with deep down. And you can fight and fight and fight and fight for somebody that you're trying to win. But if that's the dynamic you're.

[B]

You've lost because then once you win, then you're unhappy with that.

[A]

Find the person that will run to you. And it's hard to accept that because so often we date people who wouldn't and hope that we can change them.

[B]

Yeah, you can.

[A]

It's tough.

[B]

You know what I prescribe?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know the song Old Money by Lana Del Rey?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where she says, I. I'll run to you. I'll run to you. I'll run. I prescribe that. Are you a Lana fan? Yeah. Oh, yeah. How excited are you for the new album?

[A]

I'm excited for every new album. Again, a singular voice. She's not pandering to an audience.

[B]

Ever. Never. She created a whole genre.

[A]

She has a she. She's carved her own path.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's why we love her.

[B]

I mean, I think some younger people today don't really realize the heat she took when Born to Die came out.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It was like Enemy number one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like she was enemy number one.

[A]

Yeah. It is a legacy that has made opened windows and doors for so many people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She doesn't care.

[B]

Yeah. I prescribe Lana Del Rey.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

I took too many edibles with this really hot guy I'm trying to cuff and ended up greening out all over the inside of his car like projectile vomiting. Sad face. How do I get out of the vomit zone with him? Idk. What to Do. He was expectedly very grossed out. And unfortunately, I don't know if there's a. A comeback from that.

[A]

Here's what's tough for me. I have a real tough time with smells.

[B]

Oh, my God, me too.

[A]

And the minute you assign a smell to a person, it's over.

[B]

It's over. Whether that breath being bad, whether that be a fart.

[A]

It's exactly it.

[B]

It's over. And I'm sorry. And I. I could not agree with you more. I've struggled with that since I was a kid.

[A]

So let's just hope that the partner has not assigned that smell to this person.

[B]

Right. Maybe.

[A]

I think that's the only way that they can get through it.

[B]

I. You know, I actually have found a new scent recently.

[A]

Do tell.

[B]

It is called another 13 from Leilabo.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then they also have this new one. I'll.

[A]

Did you. When you were in Kyoto, did you get the lolabo Kyoto exclusive.

[B]

What?

[A]

So La Labo has a. La Labo has a Kyoto. As they do also have a Tokyo exclusive scent.

[B]

I have to go back to Japan.

[A]

You have to go back to Japan.

[B]

Me and my best friend Alice were like, I think we up.

[A]

I have a real great itinerary that I can lay.

[B]

Yeah, that would.

[A]

But they have a Le Labo is great.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But so I've been using another 13 I've also been using. I'll send it to you. This new perfume. It's their newest scent. It's unbelievable. It starts with an L. Okay. It's called Levant. It's. It's unbelievable.

[A]

Someone brought me back the Tokyo called Gayak Gigaic.

[B]

G, A, I, C. Oh, got it, got it, got it.

[A]

Not G, A, Y, dash, I, C,

[B]

K. I thought it was. I thought you said gay in.

[A]

That would be. That's tough. That's a PR nightmare. But no. Yeah. I've been using Molecule.

[B]

What's Molecule?

[A]

Molecule One.

[B]

Is that Leilabo?

[A]

No, it's its own thing and it's like. It doesn't smell like anything, but it mixes with your pheromones and the. The like people who. So it's. It changes with everybody who wears it.

[B]

So it makes you.

[A]

God, I hope so.

[B]

Okay. Help. Is this an ick? I was on my fourth date with this guy and it's been going really well. We were at this bar and it was karaoke night, and he had maybe one too many drinks. He got up there to sing shallow, trying to get me to duettle with him. I was so embarrassed and didn't go up. So he just drunkenly sang both parts poorly. Very poorly. Do I push through it? I actually think that that is endearing. If I saw. If I was on a date with the guy and he's saying both parts privately like no one else was watching. And I didn't see other people get embarrassed by it as well.

[A]

Do you like to karaoke?

[B]

I tried the. Yeah. Yes and no. I'm actually like the songs. I want to karaoke. I don't know well enough. I did. It's all coming back to me now.

[A]

Stunning.

[B]

And I realized mid song that there's parts of it.

[A]

You didn't know that I was parts of it. That's a. That's a tough.

[B]

I'm. There's video of it and it was really embarrassing. But, yes, I do like karaoke.

[A]

I find people who are game for karaoke to be infinitely charming.

[B]

Yes, I agree.

[A]

It shows a complete ease in the relationship to self. You are open to humiliation and embarrassment, and I find that. I find that incredibly attractive.

[B]

That's hot for you.

[A]

There are people who are like, no, I could never karaoke. Why?

[B]

Yeah, why?

[A]

Let's get into it.

[B]

Why do you think?

[A]

Why? Because I think they are terrified of breaking the seal of an aesthetic or a look or a vibe.

[B]

And then like, if that's a partner.

[A]

Do you.

[B]

Are you just an aesthetic partner?

[A]

I could never.

[B]

Yeah. What's your karaoke song?

[A]

I love. Duet. Mariah Carey. Whitney Houston. When you believe I love. Or. Or One sweet day.

[B]

Is that the Boys to men song?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And that's the one of the longest running number ones of all time. Right?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I see. And people don't think I know my stuff. I know my stuff. Well.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, those are two good ones. And then Purple Rain, when I've had a lot to drink.

[B]

I think my karaoke song is anything Taylor Swift.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like a. But I. If. If we're belting here, probably Ari something with Ari. I'm a. I'm a very big Ari girl.

[A]

Dangerous Woman is a great karaoke song.

[B]

You know what else is a good karaoke song that I've never done, but I know it would be good Meaty.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just because media.

[A]

That's also the thing about karaoke is you leave the karaoke room and instantly think about the songs you should have sang. Yeah.

[B]

Should I. We should go karaoke.

[A]

I would love nothing more.

[B]

Should we do that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Where are you based? Here in New York.

[A]

Here in New York now.

[B]

Me as well. Okay. So you just.

[A]

We'll go to a place. We'll go to Koreatown in New York and do a private room.

[B]

Yep, done. Private room.

[A]

Never public.

[B]

Never public. So are we the problem of people. We can't do karaoke public because we just. Like, I don't.

[A]

Public is for showboats, Right? Public. Or for the people like. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like go to the Philippines, right, if you want public karaoke. Because you will hear voices you have never heard before. Unbelievable.

[B]

I mean, voices. Have you ever heard Charisse?

[A]

Yeah, of course. You know the clip of Sharice being pulled on stage with Celine Now, I think at one point, Shareese was pulled on stage by Celine Dion to finish a song.

[B]

And did they do a great job?

[A]

Obviously they did a great job.

[B]

I mean, Pyramid stands the test of time. That's a karaoke song. Pyramid by Sharice featuring Ayaz. Of course. Right. It stands the test of time.

[A]

Of course it does.

[B]

I know you low key. Have beef with European Wax Center. I need to share. One time I was there getting everything done down there, and they burned my, like, so bad, I had to go to the hospital and get it checked out. It was insane. So safe to say we have major beef with them and refuse to ever go back. So my beef with European. I'm so sorry that happened to you. My beef with European Wax center actually isn't with their services. I actually find their waxers. Have you ever been.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay. So I actually find their waxers to be quite lovely. My beef with them is that I think something very wrong is going on there.

[A]

But the services are good.

[B]

The waxers are lovely. Do you know if you are. Do you know if you are nine minutes late? You're done. You cut you out of the nine. Why nine? There's two.

[A]

That's kind. I mean, that's a move.

[B]

It's very.

[A]

And honestly, in Los angeles, everyone is 10 minutes late.

[B]

I went to the wrong one. I went to the one in Westwood instead of the one in Santa Monica. And I called them. I said, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. You know, I didn't think European Wax center was back to back to back. Did you have to pay? No, they, I, I, they. I said, oh, my God, I'm on the way. They said, okay, great. But if you're not, if you get here at 109, you're. And I said, what? And then I got there and there was two.

[A]

That speaks to me.

[B]

Yeah. There was two people working the desk, and there was one waxer which I found very confusing. And then when you leave, they say, well, you know, you can't leave without the serums.

[A]

And I said, the serums for the

[B]

waxed part, for ingrown hair. But not only do they have a serum, they have wipes. They have body wash for ingrown hairs. Yes. And it feels like I am just. It feels like lube labeled as ingrown hair serum. Yeah, I would. I just would like to say I

[A]

feel like I need to get a wax.

[B]

You should go and get back to me. Just get like a. Some. Like some. Some random part wax and just. But just for the experience of experiencing a European.

[A]

Whether it's.

[B]

It is very. It's like the back rooms. Something's wrong.

[A]

Maybe I need to go for research.

[B]

You just do. Go. Go for research.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's very strange there. So I. I see you.

[A]

I once in. In a long time ago, used to relax my hair.

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

Like, you'd like, apply. You'd like, apply a chemical treatment and then.

[B]

Do you have curly hair?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, you. I didn't know that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, it's straight right now.

[A]

In old age, it straightened itself out. But, like, at the time, I had very, like, frizzy, curly hair and they burned all the way around my scalp.

[B]

What did you sell?

[A]

No, because my place of employment at the time had a working relationship with this salon and they didn't want to ruffle feathers, so I just had burnt scalp for.

[B]

Anyway, life is so unfair sometimes.

[A]

It's tough.

[B]

My girlfriend forgot our anniversary. We've been together for three years and she's always doing shit like this. Never my birthday. Not yet, at least. But stuff like our friends and my families, et cetera. I'm genuinely really upset about it, but I'm trying to keep my cool. How do I react to this in a smart way? I'm far too angry to do anything right now.

[A]

Ooh, this is hitting a deep, deep wound for me.

[B]

Is it really?

[A]

Yeah. Well, I wouldn't call it a wound. I guess I have no problem if someone forgets my birthday. Nothing. No, no problem.

[B]

When is your birthday?

[A]

August 9th.

[B]

You're a Leo, and you're telling me that with a straight face?

[A]

I'm a double Leo? Scorpio rising.

[B]

And you're telling me that you don't give a fuck when somebody forgets your birthday?

[A]

No, because I forget everyone's birthday.

[B]

Okay, so you give yourself.

[A]

I love my friends dearly. I am not a birthday person. I celebrate my birthday every 10 years. I'll throw a big party every 10 years.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

I'll give myself that kind of time in the sun every 10 years. Me turning 43.

[B]

I get it. Really? Did you.

[A]

Do you.

[B]

Do you like your 40s?

[A]

It's been. It's been conflicted.

[B]

Did you like your 30s?

[A]

Loved my 30s.

[B]

That's what everybody.

[A]

Clarity that comes in your 30s is like someone lifts a weight off your shoulders and you can breathe again.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What?

[A]

Like you stop caring. And also you start to see your friendships for whether they are valuable or not. The minute I turned 30, I looked around and was like, this person's not making me feel good. And then now every time I see them, there's something I walk away feeling weird.

[B]

Wow. People love their 30s. I didn't know when sex. I didn't know when sex in the city, they were all 30. Well, I never. I've never.

[A]

You want to talk about, like, feeling up watching, like, Bridget Jones's Diary, and she's much younger than me. Like, like, that's a head, right? You. It. You. I. You feel like a dinosaur when you say, like, I still feel like nothing has changed. Like, I don't know what 43 is. I don't feel 43. But what is 43? I don't know.

[B]

I don't know now.

[A]

I guess it's different.

[B]

Did you.

[A]

I'm this. It's the same brain as when I was in my twenties. Ah, isn't that just like, I care less.

[B]

Did you go through a Saturn return?

[A]

A Saturn return is ultimately just aging, but we have to believe I will put everything into the stars.

[B]

Are you in? Are you in? You.

[A]

So you're not astrology, but I'll believe any. It's. I'm. Yeah, I'll believe whatever anyone tells me. And double Leo Scorpio rising as hell.

[B]

That is crazy. Well, I'm a Scorpio. Double Gemini. Yeah. Bad. Really bad.

[A]

I say, wow, as if I really know it's bad. But I do know that Gemini's tough.

[B]

The Geminis are tough. I think my roommate has a kink for public sex. Whenever she brings a guy home, she always leaves her bedroom door open or is extremely loud. Our walls are thin, and we live in a tiny NYC apartment. What do I do?

[A]

Leaving your door open while you're having sex when you have a roommate is wild.

[B]

I think you're right on the fact that she does have the kink and she wants you to hear.

[A]

Absolutely. There's something going on there. It's deliberate, for sure. Oh, I would be the I was. I've lived on my own for a long time and that's because of. I mean, I've never had that kind of situation, but I'm radically honest.

[B]

You're good at confrontation.

[A]

Yeah. I don't need to hear you moaning in your bed with your boyfriend. Shut the door.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And actually, while we're at it, do you have to be so loud?

[B]

Right?

[A]

I'm watching tv.

[B]

Right. So just an honest conversation.

[A]

It's begging for an honest conversation.

[B]

Yeah. She wants you to have.

[A]

She wants you to have the conversation.

[B]

I'm trying to think if there's like

[A]

a show wild move.

[B]

Isn't that. Isn't that crazy? It reminds me of like in Bridesmaids when Rebel Wilson's character is like always doing wacky at home. You know what I mean? And Kristen Wick has to be like what the is.

[A]

Unless she's just one of those people that like, genuinely doesn't give a about other people.

[B]

There could be that. Well, then you might need to move out at the end of your lease.

[A]

Unless you like it, right? Maybe if you like it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I've heard people having sex and I've been like, okay, great.

[B]

I've been in hotel rooms and I've been like, yeah, sounds like they're having fun.

[A]

Yeah, they sound hot.

[B]

It sounds hot. And. Yeah, and it sounds like they're having fun.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And that's human.

[A]

So now I actually almost take it back. It depends on who's having sex, right? It depends on who it is if your roommate's good looking and their partners. Really. I mean, not that looks matter, but in this case it kind of does. Let me fantasize in that case. If you're going to leave your door open.

[B]

Exactly. But yes, they do have a kink. And you should probably say something. Every single dating app is literally hell on earth. I match with the most unhinged, horny, gross losers that all just want to come over and hook up with me and then never talk to me again. Even if there's a date involved. I know that's still the end game. What are better alternative ways to get myself out there?

[A]

I wish I could say I have no answer. Meet someone in person. But we're all so conditioned to not do that that I don't.

[B]

You gotta just have to have faith in a higher power that some.

[A]

I definitely went through phases where I would get so bored by the apps and so sort of disheartened that I would stop and then I would go back. You kind of have to assume that it's one in a thousand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's being generous.

[B]

Yeah. You just.

[A]

You have to go in. Being like one in a thousand will pique my interest.

[B]

Also, like, if you don't do it, you're not gonna find the one. Like, you have to kiss a few frogs.

[A]

100 to find your prince.

[B]

You have to. It's just. It's just how life works. And you don't. And, you know, if. Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

I would. Yeah. I wish we could go back. I do think there is nothing more romantic than meeting someone in real life and having a connection.

[B]

It's beautiful. I just found out I'm narcoleptic at the. At age 28. For years, my family and friends just thought I was lazy, uninterested, etc. Oh, wow. I always felt driven and motivated, but I cannot stay awake during the day. For the life of me. This is how I feel. I was talking to a doctor randomly, and he was like, yeah, dude, that's narcolepsy. Now I have all this medicine and stimulants. I need to take fml. So what do you need help with?

[A]

Is that his question?

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's it.

[A]

He doesn't. He's just telling us that he's narcoleptic. As someone who doesn't sleep that much, it sounds kind of great.

[B]

Yeah, I.

[A]

It. I. I've had such a horrible sleep schedule.

[B]

Have you really? Like, how many hours you get a

[A]

night, but it depends how many hours last night. Six.

[B]

Yeah. You feel well rested. You feel.

[A]

I love that in 20. 26. 6 hours of sleep is like, you're winning.

[B]

No, you are. Do you have an eight sleep?

[A]

What?

[B]

Oh, Dan. It tracks your sleep, your snoring, your rem.

[A]

I don't know if I can deal with that level of confrontation at this point.

[B]

Yep, I get that. I understand.

[A]

I've been falling asleep to. I've been falling asleep to different sounds because I think when you're traveling a lot, it's nice to have a consistent thing to listen to. And my therapist recommended this, like, erotic sleep app.

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

The subchapter in this sleep app is you falling asleep in different people's places.

[B]

Will you send this to me?

[A]

Yeah. So I've been falling asleep to, like, Marcel's cabin in the woods, and it's like, someone typing at their computer, and you're, like, lying down with, like, the rain falling out.

[B]

So you literally pretend like you have a boyfriend a little bit. Send this.

[A]

It's just. It's the joy of, like. It's like when you're a kid, not to sort of conflate this light erotic app with, like, my own childhood, but it's like, when you fall asleep knowing that your parents are, like, moving around, there's, like, a comfort of knowing that someone is awake.

[B]

Yeah. I'm gonna have you send this to me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I'm gonna try it tonight.

[A]

But now as an adult, it has, like, a kind of erotic twist to it. And someone will, like, talk to you for the first two minutes.

[B]

Like, say what?

[A]

Say, like, I'm trying to remember. But it's like, some. You can, like, choose, like, a Scottish voice who's gonna talk to you and say, like, you've had a really rough day. Like, take a sleep. Take a. Take a nap. I'm gonna, like.

[B]

What is this app called?

[A]

I'm gonna, like, paint. And you'll hear them, like, painting. What is it called? I can't remember. I'll get you. I'll get you as soon as this is done. Okay.

[B]

Well, that was the last. Tell me what's wrong.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Well, Dan, what did we learn today?

[A]

We learned so much.

[B]

Dan. I really feel so grateful to have spoken to you.

[A]

Likewise. What a spiritual conversation.

[B]

That was really beautiful. I really took in what you had to say.

[A]

Good.

[B]

I learned.

[A]

And, like, as you make this show. Yeah. I'll give you my contact information.

[B]

Please.

[A]

I would be more than happy to be a sounding board if you ever need. Need.

[B]

Well, that was some of the best advice I've gotten so far. Ever. So I really, really appreciate it.

[A]

Thank you so much for having me.

[B]

Thank you for being here. What did you learn today?

[A]

It's okay to call out a lie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In front of someone you've just sort of spent time with.

[B]

Yes. It is okay.

[A]

And it's. It's. You gotta call it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There was something in me that, like, had to proclaim, I lied to you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I felt better. And I felt very comforted by this conversation in a variety of ways.

[B]

Me too. I feel I'm leaving this feeling about Amazing.

[A]

Bye. Don't miss The Devil Wears Prada 2 in theaters. Meryl Streep, Anne Hathaway, Emily Blonde, and Stanley Tucci are back.

[B]

In light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility. I did not hire you. And all I need to do is bide my time until you fail on May 1st.

[A]

Icons.

[B]

I'm going to make something of this job.

[A]

Rain, may the bridges I burn Light my way forever.

[C]

I just love my job.

[A]

Get tickets now. The Devil Wears Prada 2 in theaters May 1st. Directed by David Frankel. Radio PG 13 may be inappropriate for children under the 13th of.