Session 119: Kacey Musgraves

Summary

Podcast Summary: Therapuss with Jake Shane – Session 119: Kacey Musgraves

Date: May 7, 2026
Guest: Kacey Musgraves
Host(s): Jake Shane (“Poppy”), Louise
Episode Theme:
A deeply introspective yet light-hearted conversation with Kacey Musgraves, exploring songwriting, mental health, relationships, personal growth, attachment styles, creativity, aliens, and more, all while reflecting on her music and its connection to real life.

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Main Theme & Purpose

The episode centers on host Jake Shane (Poppy), co-host Louise, and guest Kacey Musgraves navigating all things personal and creative: how Kacey writes about the ordinary, how her music becomes a touchstone for listeners, and the complex, tender realities of fame, friendship, and growth. Audience advice and therapy-style segments translate these broader themes into everyday issues.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mental Health & Medication Journeys

[00:57-03:15]

• Louise candidly shares her struggles with depression and anxiety, discussing medication changes and therapy.
• Poppy and Louise bond over experiences with meds (Wellbutrin, Luvox) and honest conversations about needing support and normalizing the ups-and-downs of mental health care.
• Quote:
  • “I don't know. I've just been twisted up here.” – Louise [01:13]
  • “Maybe it's time to start meds again.” – Poppy [01:24]

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2. Admiration for Kacey Musgraves’ Songwriting

[03:23-04:00, 11:35-12:42]

• Poppy and Louise gush over favorite Kacey songs: “Butterflies,” “Space Cowboy,” “Rainbow,” “Deeper Well,” and “The Architect.”
• Kacey is praised for her unique talent turning the mundane into profound observations.
• Quote:
  • “Kacey Musgraves sings simply about the world as if she's the first person to notice, and you're the first one she's telling.” – Poppy [11:45]

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3. The Magic in the Mundane

[12:09-14:21]

• Kacey explains her approach to songwriting—drawing inspiration from everyday life rather than grandiosity.
• She details how “Oh, What A World” emerged from feelings of being in love and seeing everyday magic anew.
• Discussion about songs like “Happy & Sad” and their relatability: the feeling of waiting for “the other shoe to drop” even in joyful moments.
• Quotes:
  • “I find a lot of awe in the human experience... it always hits me in the most banal, mediocre life moments.” – Kacey [12:12]
  • “Sometimes that happiness is almost so beautiful... Like, it brings you to tears because you're like, do I deserve this?” – Kacey [14:56]

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4. Reconciling the Past & Personal Growth

[15:31-16:31]

• The hosts and Kacey discuss how twenties are often about re-examining upbringing, values, and whether to make changes.
• They reflect on topics like deserving happiness and self-acceptance through therapy.

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5. The Impact & Controversy of “Follow Your Arrow”

[16:09-19:29]

• Kacey recounts releasing “Follow Your Arrow” and label concerns over its LGBTQ+ inclusivity.
• The song faced backlash and was banned by country radio, but she stands by its realness and importance.
• Conversation about the history of “outlaw” country music and supporting the marginalized.
• Quotes:
  • “They were just definitely like, yeah, no, this is gonna... go down in flames… it honestly made me want to do it even more.” – Kacey [16:34]
  • “Country music... is a genre built on storytelling. ...I just feel like it’s a natural fit that it would include real life.” – Kacey [17:00]
  • “‘Follow Your Arrow’… the song ended up getting banned by country radio.” – Kacey [18:47]

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6. Writer’s Block & The Creative Process

[19:35-21:11]

• Kacey shares her method: ideas are collected in her phone’s notes app, often as single lines she returns to later.
• She emphasizes the importance of living life to refill creative reserves.
• Songs often start with titles or snippets and develop in their own time.

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7. The Song ‘Coyote’ and Attachment Theory

[21:12-24:41 & 53:01-56:03]

• “Coyote” is explained as a metaphor for repeated patterns of being attracted to emotionally avoidant people—mirroring anxious/avoidant attachment dynamics.
• Kacey and Poppy dive into attachment theory, how childhood shapes love styles, and seeking secure attachment.
• Quotes:
  • “A coyote is like this beautiful creature, but they're like... they're nearby, but they don't want to get close. ...If you get too close, you might get bitten.” – Kacey [23:01]
  • “I think you're an anxious attacher.” – Kacey, to Poppy [53:04]

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8. Aliens, the Supernatural & Life’s Mysteries

[25:29-33:06]

• Kacey passionately discusses her experiences with UFOs, her Instagram dedicated to sightings, and her belief in something beyond what we can see.
• Debate about whether government/AI could be involved in controlling what we see/believe about aliens.
• Quotes:
  • “There was just two silent, massive balls of fire... slowly... flying above the neighborhood.” – Kacey [29:04]
  • “Once I started noticing it... probably around 2012, it just took off…” – Kacey [26:48]

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9. AI & Authenticity in Music

[32:12-33:13]

• Kacey is not threatened by AI in music, as she believes authentic human experience can’t be replicated by machines.
• “Part of the who of music is that it came from a human’s experience.” – Kacey [32:22]

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10. Saturn Returns, Journaling, and Weed

[33:24-37:23]

• Kacey discusses her tumultuous Saturn return, journaling for self-reflection, and her evolving relationship with weed (no more wake-and-bakes, but still dabbling).
• Writing under the influence, its impact, and sharing funny ideas from her “high notebook”.
• Quotes:
  • “One of the things I wrote down is ‘but do aliens believe in me?’” – Kacey [37:36]

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11. Friendship Breakups & Healing

[38:20-40:35]

• Kacey wants to explore the intimacy and pain of friendship breakups in song, finding them sometimes deeper than romantic splits.
• Louise relates, referencing Deeper Well lyrics as healing.

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12. Back on the Wagon & Patterns in Romantic Relationships

[41:00-43:35]

• Discussing “Back on the Wagon,” Kacey unpacks the narrative of believing someone has changed, being in love with potential, and realizing people usually are who they are.
• “I've been the girl a lot where I'm like, hey, I can make your life better... can I just get an equal?” – Kacey [41:37]
• Advice: People only change if they deeply want to; pay attention to patterns and red flags.

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13. Healing, Presence & the Afterlife

[44:37-45:26]

• Kacey encourages the beauty of being present, seeing everyday moments as heaven, and cherishing the actual lived experience.

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14. Therapuss Advice Segment: Audience Questions

[64:49-75:59]

• Friend homewrecking: Should you drop a friend who “homewrecked” another friend’s relationship? Kacey emphasizes compassionate honesty and warns about repeating patterns—people need truth-tellers but also support in hard times. [65:16]
• Single at 29 / Pressure to Find Love: Kacey & Poppy both advise letting love happen organically and focusing on self; for Poppy as a gay man, peer support is especially important. [67:36]
• Navigating Jealousy in Marriage: A listener’s husband’s female friends. The hosts discuss boundaries, ego, and whether relationships with these friends are worth the conflict. [71:48]
• Boyfriend stealing underwear: Humorous, non-judgmental take: is it “mutually beneficial”? Does it bother you? Set boundaries if needed. [73:05]
• Aspiring songwriter with little support: Kacey shares her own story of never having a backup plan, encourages pursuing the dream even if it’s not everyone’s primary moneymaker, and emphasizes sticking with passion. [74:12]
• Quote:
  • “If it’s like a burning desire that you have, you have to see it through.” – Kacey [75:29]

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15. Personal Favorites & Reflections

[76:22-78:49]

• Kacey’s favorite songs: “Hookup Scene” and “Slow Burn.”
  • “I feel like I'm at home in my dead center whenever I'm playing that song. Always.” – Kacey on “Slow Burn” [76:51]
• Behind-the-scenes lyric discussion: “Sun’s going down, but in Beijing they’re headed out to work.” Just literal—a meditation on time zones and life happening elsewhere.

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Memorable Quotes

• “She makes the simple things so extraordinary.” – Louise discussing Kacey’s lyricism [03:25]
• “When I made Golden Hour...I had no roadmap other than just what made me feel really good... And it ended up really connecting.” – Kacey [58:05]
• “The hope is that something that was really important to you lasts... it’s really trippy to think that the things you create are gonna outlive you.” – Kacey [80:01]

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Notable Moments & Highlights

• [11:45] Review that captures Kacey’s essence as a songwriter.
• [16:34] Recounting the backlash and ban of “Follow Your Arrow.”
• [23:01] “Coyote” as metaphor for avoidant partners.
• [26:48] Revealing her Instagram documenting UFO sightings.
• [32:22] Statement on the irreplaceability of human experience in music.
• [37:36] Reading out “high thoughts” as songwriting prompts.
• [41:37] "Back on the Wagon" and being the fixer in relationships.
• [76:51] The comfort and meaning of “Slow Burn.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:57 – Louise’s struggles with mental health
• 03:23 – Favorite Kacey Musgraves songs
• 11:35 – Kacey’s approach to songwriting
• 16:09 – The impact of “Follow Your Arrow”
• 21:12 – The story behind “Coyote” and attachment styles
• 25:29 – Alien encounters & the supernatural
• 32:12 – AI & authenticity in music
• 41:00 – “Back on the Wagon” song analysis
• 64:49 – Audience advice: homewrecking, relationships, insecurity
• 76:22 – Kacey’s favorite lyric and song (“Slow Burn”)
• 80:01 – Reflections on legacy and timelessness

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Tone, Style, and Takeaway

The conversation is confessional, breezy, and studded with self-deprecation and humor. Kacey, Jake (“Poppy”), and Louise are frank about insecurities, heartbreak, and the messiness of life, but uphold a grounded optimism and deep curiosity about emotions, creativity, and connection—offering both entertainment and genuine wisdom for fans and new listeners alike.

Final takeaway:
Kacey Musgraves remains an artist who captures the extraordinary in the ordinary, creating music—and moments—that resonate both as comfort and compass for anyone traveling the winding road of life.

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Stream Kacey Musgraves’ new album, Middle of Nowhere, out May 1st!

Transcript

[Kacey Musgraves]

Focus features in Blumhouse Obsession.

[Louise]

When I have a crush on a

[Kacey Musgraves]

guy no one knows. Be careful.

[Poppy]

I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Who you wish for?

[Poppy]

Obsession is 96% fresh on rotten Tomatoes.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I love you so, so, so, so much.

[Poppy]

It's blood soaked nightmare fuel. What kind of spills you put on her? You have been warned.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Obsession. Rated R under 17, animated without parent

[Poppy]

only theaters May 15 with special engagements in Dolby.

[Louise]

Hey. Hi. Do you want to touch my crystal?

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Louise]

It gets rid of it, encourages trust and builds positivity and exerts healthy emotional release.

[Poppy]

Okay, you need. I don't know if I want that.

[Louise]

Wait, you totally need that.

[Poppy]

Well, we have Casey Musgraves on the show today.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yay.

[Louise]

That's our fave.

[Poppy]

Did you just buy this Yesterday?

[Louise]

I was crying and I walked into a crystal shop.

[Poppy]

You're not well.

[Louise]

No, I'm really not.

[Poppy]

Are you okay?

[Louise]

No, I'm really not.

[Poppy]

Why?

[Louise]

I don't know. I've just been twisted up here.

[Poppy]

Why?

[Louise]

Not seamless, like of many things.

[Poppy]

You're just depressed.

[Louise]

Majorly. Well, maybe it's time to start meds again.

[Poppy]

Yeah, I've been screaming it from the rooftop for months.

[Louise]

No, I took meds for like five years and then I stopped.

[Poppy]

Well, cuz Wellbutrin was giving you a panic attack.

[Louise]

It was making me so anxious.

[Poppy]

But that's. I'm pretty sure that's like a common thing people have.

[Louise]

Really?

[Poppy]

Yes. My psychiatrist is trying to give it to me and I'm like.

[Louise]

Well, it's like a stimulant.

[Poppy]

So you're the. Why would you need that?

[Louise]

Right. So it just like wasn't helping my anxiety at all.

[Poppy]

So I'm pretty sure it's for depression.

[Louise]

Yeah, I mean, you can treat it for both and I have both, so. But So I stopped. I mean, nobody here cares about this. And then I'm gonna. I'm gonna have to start again soon because I'm just like. You're not bumpy.

[Poppy]

Yeah, but I'm on Luvox.

[Louise]

What's that?

[Poppy]

It's for ocd, I think. You have that.

[Louise]

You think I have ocd?

[Poppy]

You think about the same thing consistently and you can't drop it.

[Louise]

But I don't have like, rituals like you.

[Poppy]

Well, it can manifest in different ways.

[Louise]

Right. I probably have everything, honestly.

[Poppy]

Probably. What's your favorite Casey song?

[Louise]

Well, I have to think about it.

[Poppy]

You love butterflies.

[Louise]

Love butterflies. Love Space cowboy.

[Poppy]

Space cowboy.

[Louise]

You showed me that.

[Poppy]

I showed you. Space cowboy.

[Louise]

Space cowboy. I think Space cowboy rebroad it to my life.

[Poppy]

I think that's my. Right now. That's my favorite.

[Louise]

But like Rainbow.

[Poppy]

Oh, you love Rainbow.

[Louise]

Rainbow was the best.

[Poppy]

I talked to her.

[Louise]

And Justified. I like that song.

[Poppy]

Oh, you love Justified.

[Louise]

Mar.

[Poppy]

When we listen to Deeper well in the backyard.

[Louise]

In the backyard. What is that other one we love?

[Poppy]

Come to me and drop your bags. What's like, you'll be fine and I'll help you unpack. Nothing to be scared of.

[Louise]

But what's the other one? The.

[Poppy]

Your.

[Louise]

The architect.

[Poppy]

We love the architect.

[Louise]

Because like, really, she just says things and you're like, damn.

[Poppy]

Yeah, that's what I told her. I really? Yes.

[Louise]

I just said I started simple and you're like, wow.

[Poppy]

Because she. I said, I think she was put on this earth to like, just write about the world, right?

[Louise]

And like the simple things that, like, you're like, oh, damn.

[Poppy]

She like, never thought about that. She makes the simple things so extraordinary.

[Louise]

Deeper well is like the best song I've ever heard in my life.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Louise]

It's like when that came out and you were like, put it on right now in the car.

[Poppy]

I was like, I think Casey writes, like, as if it's a bible for how to live life.

[Louise]

Thousand Percent Merry Go Round is the greatest song of all.

[Poppy]

Greatest word play of all time.

[Louise]

Like, of all time. Trish showed me that song, like, years and years ago. Yeah, it's just so we have to

[Poppy]

see her on tour.

[Louise]

Have to.

[Poppy]

Okay. So I'm obsessed with Happier Grocer.

[Louise]

Really?

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Louise]

What do you get there?

[Poppy]

The chicken, the gluten free turkey wrap? Oh, I have it every single day.

[Louise]

I still, by the way, like, I know that I grew up here and like, I've lived here now for like eight months. I have no idea where I am ever. Have you had the smoothies from Happier?

[Poppy]

No. Are they good?

[Louise]

Yeah, Kennedy really likes them. I've only had one once, which you know what you need to try?

[Poppy]

What?

[Louise]

Tom's Juice.

[Poppy]

Really?

[Louise]

It's that good?

[Poppy]

What do they have?

[Louise]

And you like juice, by the way. You always want juice.

[Poppy]

What do they have? What do they have?

[Louise]

Am I wrong? Like, don't you always want, like some type of refreshing drink?

[Poppy]

No. What do they have? But, like, do they have snacks?

[Louise]

No, just juice.

[Poppy]

Nothing else? No food, just juice. What do you guys.

[Louise]

The store is the size of this.

[Poppy]

Do they have smoothies?

[Louise]

Just juice.

[Poppy]

Okay. And is it good?

[Louise]

It's amazing.

[Poppy]

Okay, well, I'll get it after.

[Louise]

I'll get it in a little they have kiwi juice.

[Poppy]

Ew.

[Louise]

They have watermelon juice I had this morning.

[Poppy]

Okay.

[Louise]

They have. Well, he calls it coconut juice, but it's coconut water. They have orange grapefruit. They have mango juice, which is insane. Sorry, Just spit everywhere.

[Poppy]

I saw

[Louise]

they have passion fruit juice, but it's literally $10 for this bag of juice.

[Poppy]

So the passion fruit is less juice than the other juices.

[Louise]

It's, like, small for some reason.

[Poppy]

Okay, continue.

[Louise]

Kiwi. Did I say that yet?

[Poppy]

You. That was the first one you said, which did not tickle my pickle.

[Louise]

Well, it's amazing. So, like, I don't know.

[Poppy]

They have four juices.

[Louise]

A million different juices. Like, just go with me one time.

[Poppy]

Okay. Do you like my haircut?

[Louise]

Yeah, I do, actually. I was noticing it.

[Poppy]

Okay.

[Louise]

I just fully lied. I didn't notice at all.

[Poppy]

You didn't notice my hair was chopped?

[Louise]

No, I don't notice.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Boys cuts.

[Poppy]

Yeah, that's. That's valid.

[Louise]

Do you like my hair?

[Poppy]

Yeah, it looks great.

[Louise]

It's so long.

[Poppy]

Louise and I are getting aqua gold facials tomorrow.

[Louise]

I want that. I got micro needling, like, a month ago, and I thought it made my skin look amazing.

[Poppy]

At the Brightwood Clinic.

[Louise]

At the Brightwood Clinic. I didn't get mine at the Brightwood Clinic. I got mine with Ally.

[Poppy]

And she gives you your whole thing.

[Louise]

My whole thing?

[Poppy]

Well, your skin looks great.

[Louise]

I get a facial with her once a month.

[Poppy]

Huh.

[Louise]

And then we just recently did micro needling and PRP under my eyes.

[Poppy]

What is the can Bright would do. PRP under my eyes. But you.

[Louise]

You're gonna be a little bruised for, like, a few days.

[Poppy]

No, I can't have that.

[Louise]

Yeah, no, it, like, honestly took me out of commission for, like. Remember when I got to Coachella, my eyes were, like, low key black and blue.

[Poppy]

No, I don't remember that at all.

[Louise]

Well, there was, like, black and blue, like, on this one eye, and it had been, like, a week.

[Poppy]

That was the best Coachella of all time.

[Louise]

Oh, my God, it was so fun.

[Poppy]

I've never had.

[Louise]

I haven't been able to, like, really go out since because I was, like, so down bad for. I don't think you understand. Like, you didn't hear one word come out of my mouth on Sunday, did you?

[Poppy]

Oh, my God. No, I didn't.

[Louise]

I literally couldn't speak.

[Poppy]

Do you remember I got a Benadryl iv?

[Louise]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

What did I say?

[Louise]

You guys, this was actually the most insane thing I know. Like, all of you, like, I've never experienced Anything like this. So Bev was over and we got IVs, and Jake was like, I want the Benadryl, but I feel like you get Benadryl in your IVs every time I do. Something about this was different. He. She puts the Benadryl push in. All of a sudden, he starts speaking nonsense. Like, actual nonsense, like words that didn't exist. He started, like, mumbling and jumbling. Whatever goes, you need to help me upstairs.

[Kacey Musgraves]

He dives into bed.

[Louise]

I don't hear from him for the next 24 hours. You woke up at like 5pm the next day?

[Poppy]

No, I did.

[Louise]

Or you went to bed, it was like 6pm and you didn't wake up until, like, 11.

[Poppy]

I started seeing people.

[Louise]

It was super scary.

[Poppy]

I'm coming out with my. With my own skew of cache gummies, and I have them here.

[Louise]

I'm so excited. I mean, holy.

[Poppy]

Yeah, they're good, right?

[Louise]

This is the best. By far.

[Poppy]

By far.

[Louise]

Respectfully, of course. By far. And this one, it's amazing. It's amazing. And it still has like that marshmallowy thing that the wild and free ones have, but it's like the taste of the rainbow kind of one and sour.

[Poppy]

Mm. Oh, hell, that's really good.

[Louise]

Well, me and Casp had drinks.

[Poppy]

Huh?

[Louise]

And we had four martinis each.

[Poppy]

Oh, that tick tock you sent me of the martini killed me. Oh, my God.

[Louise]

It was disgusting. It literally looks like green dish.

[Poppy]

It said, you're having the worst day of your life. And this is the martini you get. It's in a plastic cup and it's

[Louise]

like dirt water green. And it's the Beyonce sound that's like. So now what are you going to say to me? That you.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Whatever.

[Louise]

Anyways, we have four martinis each, so obviously I'm drunk. Like, blackout. Then Cass invited a few people to join us, and we were so fucked up. Honestly, like, really, really drunk.

[Poppy]

Like, would I have had fun?

[Louise]

Yeah, you would have had fun. Then Peyton shows up alone. Honestly, no idea where she came from. She just bond.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Louise]

Ryan also sp. Bonds out of nowhere in a tuxedo.

[Poppy]

Huh.

[Louise]

With our vlog camera. And he vlogged his entire.

[Poppy]

Did you watch it yet?

[Louise]

No, I haven't watched any of the footage yet. But he apparently said he sat down at the table and took the camera out of his pocket and was just like, hey, everyone put the camera down. And everyone's head snapped and was like, are you vlogging?

[Poppy]

Because, like, why would Ryan vlog?

[Louise]

When we went to the nines to Dance a bit.

[Poppy]

Was it dancy?

[Louise]

Yeah, it was really crowded.

[Poppy]

Don't they, like, play piano there?

[Louise]

No. It, like, turns into, like, fun vibes. Like, it's like, not jazz bar. It's like a DJ and tables.

[Poppy]

Oh. Oh, okay.

[Louise]

Then we left. We on a limo. We went to Times Square and like, I looked at my phone and it was like I had had, like, at least seven drinks at this.

[Poppy]

Why? What do you do in Times Square?

[Louise]

I don't even know.

[Poppy]

I don't know how they do it.

[Louise]

I get over. I've already had a full day yesterday. They're all like, they still have Lola's over them. Their mascara is running down their face. I'm like, oh, my God. I've literally entered the gates of hell.

[Poppy]

What? What? Like, what else should we talk about? You're depressed.

[Louise]

You just glitch.

[Poppy]

No. Yes. You're depressed. You're going on meds. We love Casey.

[Louise]

Love Casey. When is she going on tour?

[Poppy]

Did she announce that yet? I think she did.

[Louise]

I'm so sad that we missed her weekend to.

[Poppy]

Me too.

[Louise]

I would like to go to weekend

[Poppy]

to get to better than it always is. And it's like, weekend two is always just a little more chill.

[Louise]

Yeah. And like, I could do some chill next time.

[Poppy]

No, I had so much.

[Louise]

But, like, I will say, like, the only issue about Coachella for me is, like, I can barely do one day of Coachella, let alone two. Like, I will never make it to day three, ever. Okay, well, love you. I'm so excited for this episode. I'm definitely going to listen to this one.

[Poppy]

Oh, yeah. Real quickly, Julia and Peyton tried to give me for not watching their vlog the other day.

[Louise]

I didn't try to give you shit. I just said watch it because, like, you're going to think it's really funny you don't watch.

[Poppy]

Watch my show.

[Louise]

I know. I actually thought about that as I said it. I was like, wait, he doesn't want to watch. Cuz, like, I don't.

[Poppy]

Do you have extensions in right now?

[Louise]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to tell you. It's so long.

[Poppy]

They look really amazing, right? Your dog died.

[Louise]

Oh, he did?

[Poppy]

Are you okay?

[Louise]

Well, that's definitely adding to my depression.

[Poppy]

I think so too.

[Louise]

It definitely is.

[Poppy]

Well, maybe he died and his dying wish is for you to get on meds.

[Louise]

Maybe. Maybe.

[Poppy]

Can I say, though, every time I'm worried about a situation, you handle it so much better.

[Louise]

No, I handle the situations that, like, don't deserve to be dramatic very poorly. And I handle, like, very dramatic situations

[Poppy]

well, Julia, me too.

[Louise]

It's. It's just us.

[Poppy]

It's just us. We're the same.

[Louise]

We are.

[Poppy]

Okay, well, I love you.

[Louise]

Don't want to be. I love you.

[Poppy]

I love you. You were saying, though, right before this, we're like, I am so scared because you were, like, overanalyzing it that, like, it's boring. You were scared of it being boring.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

There's actually, like, this quote that I wanted to read you that I think just, like, describes it. It was a review of Golden Hour, but it describes, I think, how you write and your storytelling just entirely. And it says, casey Musgrave sings simply about the world as if she's the first person to notice, and you're the first one she's telling.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, I like that.

[Poppy]

Yeah, that's. And I think that is, to me, the beauty of your music, because you describe these feelings with such simplicity that are so hard to figure out.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I think, like, I find a lot of awe, like, in the human experience. And for me, like, I do feel, like all the inspiration that I find is usually within the most mundane. Like, it's like, in the everyday. Like, for me, it's not like this grandiose, far reaching, poetic, like, sense of something. It's like, it always hits me in the most, like, banal, kind of, like, mediocre, like, life moments. And I feel like that's where, like, so much of the beauty lies, you know, of being a human or have.

[Poppy]

What. What song do you remember that hit? Like, do you remember a moment that was so mundane that hit you and you're like, oh, this. This song came out of that.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I mean, so many of them. Like, I feel like I write my best when I've had a lot of time to just, like, live life and. You know what I mean? And I'm not really, like, on any kind of, like, time, time constraint. I can just kind of, like, live life and let the ideas, like, build back up. But, you know, like, oh, what a world. Like, that was one of them.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

HE BREATHES DEEPLY I have to.

[Poppy]

Where were you when that idea struck?

[Kacey Musgraves]

I mean, I think I was probably somewhere in Nashville, but I just remember, like, I. I was, like, falling in love. I was in this place of extreme wonder and, like, you know, rose colored glasses. And I was also, I think when you fall in love, you, like, you're. You see the world in this kind of refreshed, new, beautiful light again. You know, you're like, oh, My God, there's, like. You forget, like, they're shooting stars out there. There's.

[Poppy]

Right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Jellyfish that glow. Like, there's, like, bioluminescence. Like, we live in a trippy world and we just get so here, you know, that we kind of forget the magic exists.

[Poppy]

Oh, what a world indeed.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's a crazy world, too, though, y'. All.

[Poppy]

Yeah, really. It really is. But I think you're like. You make real music. And I don't want this to just be me compliments you.

[Kacey Musgraves]

No, I think that it should be. I have three beverages now over here, which I do love that we both

[Louise]

were on the creation.

[Poppy]

I know. And you know what? It came to me. I was like, right. Literally, right before you came, I was like, oh, I'm just gonna order one.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

And then you walked in with one, and I was like. And that's.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And that's all.

[Poppy]

That's the mundane and that. Yeah, that's the mundane. But your song, that really, I would say, like, describes that for me as happy and sad.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. I feel that all the time because

[Poppy]

I never knew how to express that feeling. Everyone, I would be like. Everyone would always be like, you look. Look around you. Life is so good. I'm like, I can't because I'm. I'm so scared of it becoming bad again and having it hurt that much

[Kacey Musgraves]

harder or knowing that, like, happiness is fleeting. The good doesn't last forever. Like, even the most beautiful thing dies or. God, it's so, like, morbid sounding, but it is true. And it's hard to not get caught up in that when you're experiencing such a high because you're like, oh, is there a low that's gonna be next?

[Poppy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's real. And sometimes that happiness, it's, like, almost so beautiful that you're like. Like, it brings you to tears because you're like, do I deserve this? You know what I mean?

[Poppy]

That's how I feel all the time.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

How have you learned to understand that you do deserve it?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, I mean, therapy, I think, getting older, like, you realize you're like, I do deserve this thing that I really am working hard towards, or I do deserve to be in a really reciprocal, beautiful relationship, you know, like, and I can, like. I can, like, stand in that and say, like, I deserve that. I do. I feel like, you know, I mean, everyone does, though, you know, I feel

[Poppy]

like your 20s, at least for me right now, are a lot about, like, reconciling. I don't know if you felt the

[Kacey Musgraves]

Same way, like, reconciling with, like, who

[Poppy]

you were, how you grew up.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, totally. It's that exploration period of, like. Or you're examining kind of, like, the building blocks of who, like.

[Louise]

Or.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. Who you are and why. Why are you like that? You know what I mean? Or maybe, like, how your parents are or, like, how your childhood was, and it's your chance to, like, examine that, and I think, like, make changes or, like, you know, decide. Is that. Is that actually how I do I align with this?

[Poppy]

Right?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Poppy]

I wanted to talk to you about follow your arrow because that was actually my first introduction to you when I was in seventh grade.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, wow. Damn. Okay. Where's my cane? I definitely need the eye cream at this point.

[Poppy]

No, I heard it, and I never heard. I just had never heard a country singer sing about gay people before. Like, when you put. Was there any hesitation to put that out, or were you just, like, fudge it?

[Kacey Musgraves]

I mean, mostly just, like, fudge it. It's interesting because I wrote that song that was, like, I think, the last addition to that record, and I remember bringing it into the label, and I was like, so here's the album, and I'm adding the song. And, yeah, I mean, they were just definitely like, yeah, no, this. This is gonna. You're gonna be roasted for this. Like, it's gonna go down in flames. And here's all these reasons as to why, like, you shouldn't put this out. And I just. It honestly made me want to do it even more. Like, don't tell me that I should. You know what I mean? Like, that's reverse psychology. But, yeah, I was just like, okay, well, then if it goes down in flames and it's be. It's for something that I really, truly believed in. And, you know, like, when you really look at the bones of country music, like, it's. It's. It's a genre built on storytelling. You know, it's real stories. And, you know, at least that's my favorite kind of country music. So I just feel like it's a natural fit that it would include, like, just parts of real life. Like. Like the. Like, historic country music talks about stuff that's, like. It's typically sometimes left of center. It, like, talks about heartbreak and just things that are. You know what I mean? Like, can be a bit painful or very real. You know what I mean? And so I'm kind of like, this is country to me, to, like, talk about.

[Poppy]

Gay.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Gay as hell, yeah, pretty much.

[Poppy]

But that Was. And I think that that's what you've done for a lot of people. You've really helped translate. I feel like for a long time, people thought country was this very. Almost sort of specifically.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Right.

[Poppy]

Very straight thing. And you were kind of like, no, yeah, country can.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Can hit somebody, like, in their heart, and you don't have to be, like, living on a farm and, like, you know, to appreciate it or whatever. And I feel like one of the best compliments that I've ever received, like, in my entire career is that, like, you know, someone said basically what you said of saying, like, I always felt like country music was this party that I could. You know, I grew up in a small town, and I always identified with country, but I just felt like it was a party that I was never invited to. And hearing your music made me feel like I was finally invited to the party. And I was like, okay, that's. That means so much more than any, like, you know, radio chart number or, like, you know. But, yeah, the song ended up getting banned by country radio.

[Poppy]

Did it really?

[Kacey Musgraves]

And, yeah, I'm like. It's just funny. And, like, I saw something about this the other day about, you know, there was an article about, like, liberal and more the. The conservative people in country music or whatever. And I think people tend to forget that the idols that we have from country music, like, we're thinking, like, Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Loretta Lynn, like, they were outlaws. Like, they. They were liberal. Like, Loretta Lynn was out here singing about birth control when it was, like, a very controversial, taboo subject. You know what I mean? I think we just forget that there is a large part of country music that we love that is very outlaw, and that means speaking up for the marginalized, like, subjects and things, you know?

[Poppy]

Yeah, a thousand percent. And I think you've done that so beautifully.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Thank you.

[Poppy]

I feel like I've heard you talk about this before, but, like, how do you deal with, like, writer's block and stuff? Because I feel like you've. I've heard you speak about this before.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I just, like, I really try not to force it. I mean, and the writing process is different for every single person. Some people probably write, like, every day. Like, I can't even imagine that. But, like, in my phone, I have. In my notes app, I just have, like, a running little basket of little ideas and song titles and things like that. And so, like, I feel like as I'm living life and kind of, you know, just getting to experience, like, just being human, then naturally, I'm just Inspired. Oh, that's a song title. Or like, I see something somewhere or like a thought comes to me and I'm like, okay, that's a twist on a. A thought or a lyric or something. And I put it in my notes app and then I just kind of come back to it later when I have time. Like right now I'm promoting a record. Like, it's, you know, there's all this inertia around that I don't really have the creative need to start a new song. I have some ideas, though, that I'm like, I really want to write that. And they'll just. It's almost like it finds the time to be.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Written or something.

[Poppy]

Are any of the songs on the new record. Can you remember a time where you wrote it down in your notes app? And it became. Then all of them.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, all of them. I mean, and I. So I have this never ending, like, note document that goes. I mean, it's years long and occasionally I'll email it to myself. So if I'm like, God forbid to lose this. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, I have references to all the ideas in there at some point. You know, they usually start out as a song title and then. Yeah. And then I figure out what is the. How can I flip this? Or what is the angle of this?

[Poppy]

Right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Poppy]

I loved Coyote.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, thanks. It's kind of a creepy little number.

[Poppy]

It's creepy. It's creepy. What is. What is it? Because I'm like, listening to it. I'm trying to figure out what it. What it's about. What is it about to you?

[Kacey Musgraves]

A large part of. Of healing, getting older and kind of getting into my, like, 30s is figuring out why am I attracted to emotionally unavailable people. Like, emotionally avoidance. Like, if you know about the attachment

[Poppy]

theory, I'm vaguely familiar.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's like, you know, we all, for different reasons, have these attachment styles that we're kind of like we were hardwired with, like, from childhood or whatever. Like, there's several different types. Like, secure attachment is the goal. Right. But you can be anxiously attached, an anxiously attached person, or an avoidant attached person. And that kind of dictates how you kind of move in relationships and how you. The choices you make, the people that you choose. And it's just interesting. Like, typically, I would say when I'm like, not secure, I'm. I like air on the side of the anxious attached person. And so I've typically chosen people that are avoidant. So there's always like a chaser in a Relationship. Typically in these imbalances, there's like a power struggle, right? And someone's like the one pulling the other person closer, trying to advance the relationship, like, you know, desperately wanting that closeness. And then the other person feels the avoidant, feels suffocated by closeness.

[Poppy]

And the anxious attachment is the person pulling.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And the anxious attacher feels like, oh, my God, this person's gonna leave, you know, or I'm gonna do something and it's gonna ruin this relationship or whatever. And it's funny because the closer that the people, the, the two get, it just like the, the pattern just keeps going and the other person starts pulling out because they're like, oh, I'm gonna. I'm gonna feel claustrophobic in this. Like, there's a whole thing about it. But, like, like somewhere along the way, that person was hardwired with the thought that, like, to be really loved and to be close means that I lose my autonomy, I lose my freedom. And so I don't. I push it away. You know what I mean? And I've always gone for people like that. And so, you know.

[Poppy]

Oh, oh, so you're. Okay.

[Kacey Musgraves]

So this is like.

[Poppy]

Sometimes I'm like, I'm slow, so I

[Kacey Musgraves]

think I'm just like, no, no, no, you're speaking biblically.

[Poppy]

I'm like, no, no, no, you're.

[Kacey Musgraves]

No, no. Well, it was a long ass point. The Adderall has not kicked in yet, but, like, I'm circling to like, I saw a couple coyotes on my property one day in Nashville, which is strange to see him in the daytime. And I saw there was two, and I was like. Because I was like, what is that? And have these little. These knocks. I got my knocks out and I was just like, oh, those are some coyotes. And I was like, okay, that's a song title. There's something in there. A coyote is like this beautiful creature, but they're like. And they kind of edge on, like, city's edges. They like, they're nearby, but they don't want to get close. And if you get too close, like, you might get bitten. You know what I mean? Or whatever. Wow. It just kind of reminded me of, like, being in a relationship with someone who is, like, terrified of closeness. Basically, I'm just like, likening this. It's. It's sort of a metaphor, you know what I mean? Like, being in, you know, seeing this. This person that you're attracted to and that you want closeness with, but, you know, they just. They just kind of can't give it to you. You know, and so that's just kind of where the song came from. But in a sense, in general, just kind of examining, like, what is it in me that's picking that type of person.

[Poppy]

Right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Several times over. And like, why. Like, why am I attracted to that? You know what I mean? It's. There's so much to it. It's really interesting. You should read.

[Poppy]

Have you.

[Kacey Musgraves]

You should try reading.

[Poppy]

I really should. I got 12 pages into my book last night and I fell asleep.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, that's honestly the best. We were talking about, like, taking supplements to sleep. Put a. Read a page.

[Poppy]

Lorazepam.

[Kacey Musgraves]

No, just. Just read. I feel like it'll put you. Put your ass to sleep so quick.

[Poppy]

It really did last night. I was like, oh, but it was giving me anxiety. I was like, I got to put this down.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Put the book down.

[Poppy]

Put it. Put it down.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Better than a doom scroll, though.

[Poppy]

Doom scrolling is the bane of my existence.

[Kacey Musgraves]

But like, yeah, it's like, let me just ingest all this shit right before I close my eyes. Yeah, great idea.

[Poppy]

It wakes me up, though. It like. It, like. It, like. No, like when I'm doomscrolling. Like, I try to do it as, like, a form of reading, but it just. I'm never going to sleep.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, no. I get in the craziest wormholes at night. Like the other day I was like, oh, yeah, I really should go to bed. Let me look up all the different types of aliens there are apparently in the universe.

[Poppy]

Do you believe in aliens?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, I really do.

[Poppy]

Okay, can you tell me why? Because my mom is, like, such a skeptic and I'm really, really similar to my mom.

[Kacey Musgraves]

You are a skeptic as well?

[Poppy]

I believe I, like, take what my mom says. Kind of. Like, I really like, when she says something, she says it with such, like, conviction. Conviction that I'm like, oh, you're right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

So do you feel, in general. This is interesting. I want to know, like, do you feel like the world is life, existence is where you can all see where you can see it? Or do you think that it extends past that? Is there a. Is there a supernatural side that you feel like exists that you can't see? Or you do you feel like it's more so just this is what it is. It's right here in front of us, or it's not.

[Poppy]

I think I'm like, this is what it is. Because I can't wrap my head around the fact that they're being more to that. Yeah, it's like, hard for Me, I'm such, like a facts person.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Like, literal.

[Poppy]

Yeah. I'm like, well, what do you and I. And like, do you believe? Like, when there's like, flying saucers over, like, do you believe those are alien ships? Like that.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I guess you haven't seen the Instagram I just created for my weird sightings.

[Poppy]

You. Oh, you believe in this?

[Kacey Musgraves]

I'm done. No, like, okay, let me just check the follower count because, guys, there's. Apparently there's a lot of believers out there too. So night before last, I was like. Because I really do have really interesting, unexplainable things that I see all the time for years. And I was like, I'm gonna freaking start an Instagram page for this. So I did, and it already has. It has 25.1000 followers. It's just funny that we're talking about this because I literally, the other day, there was all these, like, all these news pickups about the fact that I had posted these videos of these orbs that are lights, these really strange lights that me and my. One of my managers saw on a plane the other night. And I'm just seeing weird stuff all the damn time. So it just, like, finds me, I swear. But also, the more you look for it, the more you see, you know, And I feel like once I started noticing it, like, probably around like, 2012, it just took off. I've seen the crazy. Like, if I really did tell people, like, all the things that I've seen, they'd be like, she's. Lock her away. Like she's batshit.

[Poppy]

What's the craziest thing you've seen?

[Kacey Musgraves]

I mean, lots of different, like, unidentified flying things. And it started in Mexico, like, back in, like, 2012, and I was with other people, was not high, was not drunk, nothing. And that was just this whole crazy thing that I can't even wrap my brain around, like, what it could have been. And then literally four days later, I was back at my house in Nashville, me and my boyfriend at the time, and we were like, watching Family Guy. It was like 10pm and we were out on the screen porch, and I. Out of the corner of my eye, kind of above the neighborhood, I saw these two massive balls of fire that were like. It looked like flaming suns. Like, at first I thought, oh, is that something on fire? But I like, we ran down the street and looked, and, yeah, they were just two silent, massive balls of fire that were just sort of slowly, silently kind of floating, flying, like, above the neighborhood. And we, like, followed them to the end of the street. And then they just disappeared. And I was like, okay. Like.

[Poppy]

And you had someone with you to be like, I saw that too.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. And that same person was at the first sighting. And then since then it's just been like, oh, wow. The weirdest stuff.

[Poppy]

Yeah, I'm not looking hard enough.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Like, I was thinking about this one yesterday as I was flying in. But I. One time I was flying in to California. I can't remember if it was LA or if it was like what city it was, but it was daytime. I was flying solo. I was like, by myself. I mean, it was on a commercial plane, but there was. And there were other people, but it was like not a packed flight. And I had the road to myself and I was just like looking out the window and maybe about 10 yards away from the plane, just floating like out there was. I can just describe it as like, it was like a cobalt blue color, like spinning top. It looked like a spinning top and it was maybe about the size of like a small car. And I was like, is anyone else seeing this? Like, it made me feel insane. And it was just, just there was no lights on it or anything. It was just a spinning blue top. And I was like, what the hell?

[Poppy]

Do you have a photo of it?

[Kacey Musgraves]

No, I didn't. No. A lot of these things I don't have photos. I think I was just like, when you see something like that, you're like, holy. But the other night I did catch a bunch of videos of the ones that like me and my manager Bobby saw on this plane ride.

[Poppy]

Wow.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And they were unreal. Like there was just no way you

[Poppy]

can just like there's no way we're alone.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I just. I don't know. I mean, I'm just constantly like, I don't think that we are alone. I think that would be kind of wild and also kind of maybe a little bit sad. But I'm just constantly torn is like, does the government know? And they're just hiding it. But also like, do we trust anything the government says anyways? And they're going to use it as an Epstein files distraction anyway. So like, but I'm like, but do they know? Because the public would. There would be a mass freak out. Religion would collapse. Like, you know what I'm saying?

[Poppy]

Like, yeah, I guess so. Right?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

Did you watch the Age of Disclosure?

[Kacey Musgraves]

I haven't.

[Poppy]

Okay. I haven't. I watched.

[Kacey Musgraves]

What is it?

[Poppy]

Okay, so it's this movie. I think it's on Amazon and it's with a bunch of ex government employees. So my dad, my dad is like, you. And he's like. And he's like, it is the most insane thing. And then my mom is like, they are disgruntled ex government employees. So that's how my mom views it. And she's like, they like, they're just angry that they like aren't working with the government anymore and are like, you know what I mean? So I'm like, oh, who do I believe? I guess I have to watch it. But I'm so easily swayed.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I mean, the problem is is that now AI exists. So even if I had like the most clear, amazing, high res footage of like the most unbelievable thing, nobody would believe it anyway. So, like I kind of have this thought that like was AI floated out there? If the government does know some shit and they like knew or I don't know we're aware of, think more things coming to light. Was AI pushed out to just kind of keep us confused so the real stuff could hide amongst the fake stuff and nobody knows what's real. You know what I mean?

[Poppy]

Oh God, that thought is so scary of like not knowing because AI becoming so. It. It is becoming real. Real, real.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, it is.

[Poppy]

How has that impacted the music scene for you?

[Kacey Musgraves]

It hasn't gotten into my world at all. I mean, I don't with it, but like, also I'm kind of like, does anyone actually think AI music is good?

[Poppy]

No.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I feel like part of the who of music is that it came from a human's experience. Right. And it's relatable that way. Like anyone can churn out. Or any machine could turn out like ear candy that is like engineered to be like, liked. But I don't think it has the same value. Right. Because it. There's no struggle behind it.

[Poppy]

No machine can churn out golden hour period. No machine could ever turn out Golden Hour ever like it. That. Oh my God. Can we talk about Golden Hour?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, sure.

[Poppy]

That album has like really gotten me through some, but not even just romantically, just living life.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It was a comfort album for you.

[Poppy]

It was just like, this is it almost to me feels like a bible for how to live life.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, I love that.

[Poppy]

And then pairing it with deeper well as well, which I also like. I love that I'm about to go through my Saturn return.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, hang on.

[Poppy]

What? Oh God. What do you mean?

[Kacey Musgraves]

It can get rough, but you'll be better for it.

[Poppy]

How was your Saturn return?

[Kacey Musgraves]

It was rough. Divorce, I moved houses. Like. Yeah, it was intense. It was, it was intense. I really do think there's something to it for sure. But it does make way for, I think maybe more authenticity, more room kind of clearing, you know, so. Yeah, but just have his annex on hand or something. Yeah.

[Poppy]

I actually did want to ask you about your relationship to weed because I

[Kacey Musgraves]

thought you were just gonna say I did want to ask about your relationship to Xanax. I. Which. Do you have one? I mean, sometimes you just need a chill pill. I really do feel like it is.

[Poppy]

My brain is so all the time that I need something to just shut it off.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Maybe try meditation.

[Poppy]

Do you meditate?

[Kacey Musgraves]

No, no, no. I. I do sometimes, but not as much as I used to do it twice a day.

[Poppy]

But I've been journaling.

[Kacey Musgraves]

That's good.

[Poppy]

Journaling. And I've been journaling the golden hour.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Really?

[Poppy]

Yes.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, I love that.

[Poppy]

Yeah. Because it makes me like, think about, like the simplicities of life and like finding just like writing. Because I feel like I journal to write about things that I would normally forget. I'll never forget interviewing you this day, but I'll. Or talking to you this day. Yeah, but I'll. I won't. Like, there are moments where I'm like. And then I asked her about aliens, not knowing that she had just created an alien. And like.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

Little things like that.

[Kacey Musgraves]

The nuances of like all the moments that.

[Louise]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

You kind of skim over later. Yeah, yeah. I've been journaling for years for that reason because I feel like when I'm an old ass lady, I'm going to be like, wow, I had an interesting life.

[Poppy]

You do have an interesting life.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I do. I really do.

[Poppy]

But I did want to ask about your relationship with weed because on deeper. Well, you said I used to wake and bake.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

Roll out of bed.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I know. It was, girl. It.

[Louise]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I don't know why at one point in my life I was like, let me get as high as possible before I do anything.

[Poppy]

I feel that I really. I was that way. And then I took a nine month break and now I'm back on the wagon.

[Kacey Musgraves]

You are?

[Poppy]

I am.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I kind of am too, a little bit, to be honest.

[Poppy]

Okay. Really? Because Rhinestoned.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. Which you can get rhinestoned in a lot of different ways. You know, pick your poison. But yeah, like, it's funny, everyone was like, she doesn't smoke weed anymore. I was like, I never said I didn't smoke weed. I'm just saying I don't hit a gravity bong right when I wake up. That was made out of a 2 liter and you put it in a water bucket. I don't need to. Whatever. It's fine. But, but yeah, like here and there. I've been kind of like dabbling again. Maybe not. I'm not these people that do like the shatter and the wax and. Damn.

[Poppy]

I don't even know what you just said. What is that?

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's so. It's just a method. It's a form of. Oh, it's like a condensed, very like, concentrated form. And it will, like, It'll send you. Yeah, it will send you to like. Yeah, but anyways. Yeah, but just like a chill. Like, I'm a one puff girl.

[Poppy]

Really.

[Kacey Musgraves]

We're taking one puff and then if you cough. Oh, you're.

[Poppy]

You're done.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's. I'm going inward. Yeah, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna get non verbal after that. So I just, you know, a little bit. Let's, you know, just take the edge off. I think it makes me nicer.

[Poppy]

I. I think it makes me nicer too. But then I think the come down of it, I. I reach a little bit of mania.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, really?

[Poppy]

And that's why I had to stop. Because for these like 20 minutes, I would have these like, like grandiose ideas and like. Like those ideas being like, literally like the dumbest things in the entire world.

[Kacey Musgraves]

If they were like, kind of genius

[Poppy]

to me at the time, they were. But then the mania, I would get so paranoid. It caused such paranoia that I was like, I need to know.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It does. Yeah. Yeah. I don't like that. Or anxiety. I'm like, just anything. Let's mitigate the anxiety. Anything to just get that out.

[Poppy]

Right, right. And that's what. Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

But, yeah, anyway, a little bit of dabble.

[Poppy]

Have you written any of your songs while high?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Little seeds of ideas come from. Come from being high. I think I wrote some down the other day, actually.

[Poppy]

Let me see what. I would love to hear this.

[Kacey Musgraves]

We'll see what I have. Don't hold your breath. Well, one of the things I wrote down is but do aliens believe in me?

[Poppy]

Really Think about it. That's it.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And then I also put wow.

[Poppy]

Separate the presence of greatness.

[Kacey Musgraves]

But then this is another one I wrote down the other day. I had a dream that I wrote a song called I Wish I was my boyfriend.

[Poppy]

I love that.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I wish I was my boyfriend.

[Poppy]

Oh, please keep going. This is like.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I feel like I do want to write a song though. And it's like it has yet to be written, but I think the breaking news has finally broken me. I think there's a song in there anyway that.

[Poppy]

Yeah, there's a song in there. Wow, that is really beautiful.

[Kacey Musgraves]

But I have a shitload of things in here. Doesn't mean it's should all be said, but maybe there. Oh, this was one. I kind of feel like. I feel like maybe. I don't know if this is more of a girl relatable idea, but, like, writing about a friend breakup.

[Poppy]

Oh, no, no, no. I. I relate.

[Kacey Musgraves]

There's something about, like when. Like you. When you pivot in a friendship and, you know, you have to let go of. Of a friend specifically. I feel like in female relationships, I feel like female friendships get. They're so intimate that it's almost Sometimes more. And not in a sexual way. It's just. It can be more intimate than like a romantic relationship with, like, your boyfriend or whatever. Like.

[Poppy]

I don't know. Friendship breakups suck.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's almost like you're losing a sibling in a way or something. Yeah, it has that same kind of feeling. It's like. Yeah, like a soul sister or whatever.

[Louise]

That's.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's. It's really not. Not fun. I don't like that feeling, you know? But I mean, also friendships, I think are meant to ebb and flow and I don't know, people just kind of. It's not like on purpose sometimes, you know.

[Poppy]

You actually have a lyric that I listen to sometimes when I think about my friendship breakups and it's like it's on deeper. Well, it's some. When things lose their shine, it's natural. When things. It's.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's.

[Poppy]

No regrets, baby. I just. I just. Yeah, maybe it's natural when things lose their shine. And for that. That lyric for me is kind of so healing because it's like things are supposed to thing. You can't be shiny forever.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

And I know for you that might have been about a relationship or whatever, but for me, the way that I listen to it and I take it is I do listen to it and think about, like, friendships past and.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. You know, and you never know. Things can circle back around with people. Like sometimes you just need to pause if it's. Don't force it. You know what I mean?

[Poppy]

I think it's hard. I just think it's like lonelier than a breakup because friends are like family.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It is. There is something. There is something different about it. And that's. I think just what I wrote down on my phone is like, there. I don't know that I'VE heard. Maybe there is a song out there, but, like, a song about breaking up with a friend. You know what I mean? Like, I'm sure there is, like, every single.

[Poppy]

There might be, but there's not a Casey one. And I, like, I need that.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Okay, well, we should co Write it.

[Poppy]

Oh, don't, Tracy. Seriously. Because I will follow up. Because I will follow up and you'll be like.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I'll be like, God, why did I say that? Why did I, like, offer that?

[Poppy]

No. Before we started recording, we were talking about the transition from dry spell to Back on the wagon.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

And Casey was like, someone commented, oh, my God. Like, because back on the wagon is not what you would think it's going to be.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I saw some comment that was like, when the track list came out, and it was like, in my mind, it was some girl, and some girl was like, wow, can't wait to see the transition from dry spell to back on the wagon. And I was thinking, oh, they're gonna get got. And that girl was you.

[Poppy]

It was me. It was literally. I remember commenting that. Being like. Like, I remember being like.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I was like, I can't wait for them to see. And then. Yeah, that was literally you. I had no idea it was.

[Poppy]

It was me. So what is Back on the Wagon about to you? Because you say he's back on the wagon.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Right.

[Poppy]

Break it down for me.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Sure. Basically, I think it's speaking mostly to the character that I have been in my relationships in different forms, like, throughout the years. And I've been this, like, hopeful girl when I pick somebody who, like, you know, everybody's on their own healing journey. But, like, I'm just tired of being like. I think a lot of women pick men that they have to, like, helping the man improve their life, like, in so many different ways. And, like, for once, I'm just like, can I just get an equal? You know what I mean? And I've been the girl a lot where I'm like, hey, I can, like, make your life better and I can help you, and I can do this. And, you know, the guy's like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna change. Like, I'm gonna. You know, And I'm. I'm just like this. Maybe it's not being naive and being young and just being like, they're gonna change. Just kind of being, like, in love with someone's potential and being like, oh, but they're gon butter guys. Like, he said he's different now. He's back on the wagon. He's not you know, drinking anymore, doing this anymore. He's. He's gonna be. He's. I swear, like, he's totally changed. He's. He's back on the wagon, guys, like.

[Poppy]

And it's like your wordplay is some of the most clever in the game.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Thank you.

[Poppy]

Because you would think back on the wagon means he's drinking again, but you're like, actually, he's on the mend of being a better person.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I swear. He's back on the sober wagon. He's back on the. Yeah, I've changed.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Or whatever. And it's like, I've been that girl so many times. It's like, girl, he's not. He's not, you know, he's. This is who he is right now. For the most part, people are just who they are, you know, Unless they just really want to have a personality overhaul. And that's really hard.

[Poppy]

Do you believe people can change if

[Kacey Musgraves]

they really, really want to, but they have to really want to. And it has to come from. It can't be someone else's idea.

[Poppy]

But do you think, like, the basis of who that person is? My grandma always says no much.

[Kacey Musgraves]

What? That they can't. That they can't change.

[Poppy]

Like, who they are is who they are.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I think grandma's right on this one. I think mostly. But I will say maybe sometimes. Like, there are these hard lessons that you need to learn sometimes in life. And sometimes you gotta kind of maybe gotta hit a rock bottom to really see the gravity of, like, oh, all right. Like, I gotta like you. If you don't hit the rock bottom, you may not see that you have to change. But most times someone is going to be who they are. So, like, when they show you a first time, fudgeing, pay attention. If they show you a second time, just no.

[Poppy]

Are you good at cutting people out?

[Kacey Musgraves]

I have gotten that way. And not to be like, ruthless or like, you know, sometimes I feel like in this modern age, people can be too much. Like I'm cutting them off. Like they, you know, her. And I think people have to have room to be human also, because nobody's perfect. But, like, if, you know, if you're not being valued, well, like, why are you sticking around somewhere? You know what I mean?

[Poppy]

And I think your music does a really, really good job of showcasing that.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Thanks. I mean, like, what a wild trip it is, right, to. To be human and to be alive. And, like, we really don't know if there's anything else after this, you know, I like to believe that they're like, in the. That there is a lot that to it that we can't see. But I just think there's so much magic in actually being, like, right here and being alive. And, like, you brought up Deeper. Well, but, like, Heaven is the song on that record is. Is kind of about that. It's like, you know, people talk about, like, a heaven, you know, or this. Like, when I get to Heaven, it's. And it. To me, it was like, in that moment where I was in my life, it was like. No, heaven was, you know, the walk I went on this morning or, like, you know, the flower that somebody picked and gave to me that I put in a little vase of water. It's like. It's wearing my favorite, like, tattered T shirt. It's, you know, it's like Heaven is in the moments where you're actually. You're still alive for, you know.

[Poppy]

Yeah. And I also feel like you can hear it in other songs as well, like the Architect, where you're like, what does this mean? Please, someone tell me.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. Like, can someone tell me what's going on?

[Poppy]

Yeah. God. Wow. Thank you, Depop, for sponsoring tonight's episode. Episode. If you noticed, I've been wearing more vintage stuff, which I've spoken about. It is because I've been using Depop to help curate my own personal style, which I feel like I have always been lacking. For tonight, I am wearing Casey Deeper well merch that I found on Depop. Like, I love. I always talk about it, but I love merch so much. Like, I love old merch as well. Like, old artist merch from, like, an old album or an old tour. And Deeper well, might not be old, but it's not the current album. So finding stuff from past eras I think is so cool. Depop is a fashion resale marketplace where personal taste has real value. It's the easiest and most rewarding place to sell fashion. You can list your first item in less than five minutes. It is so easy. There's also no seller fees, which means more money in your pocket. It is really, it truly such an authentic vintage shopping experience online. This shirt, like, that I bought from Depop means something to me and it obviously meant something to the seller. So it really makes for such a personal experience and shopping and, like, you can use other people's personal styles and passions to help curate your own, which I think Depop is just incredible at. Also, I've been talking a lot about a spring reset and, like, there's no better place to hone in on your personal style for a spring reset for clothing than Depop. Because at the end of the day, clothing is art, and art is made by people. So, like, I know it sounds cheesy, but these people selling this art, like, it obviously means something to them, so it really is so helpful in, like, I know when I'm buying something on Depop Depop, I'm buying it because I like it, not because it's just for sale. Like, I'm buying it because I've scrolled and I've looked, and that's the thing that I like, and I want it. Download the Depop app now and start listing today. Thank you again, Depop, for sponsoring tonight's episode. Thank you, Poppy, for sponsoring tonight's episode. And this season, as you guys know, there is no soda in this world I love more than Poppy. You also know my favorite flavor besides Shirley Temple is always cherry limeade. So that's why I always have one with me. Poppy is a better for you soda with prebiotics and 5 grams of sugar. And that's why Poppy has become such an integral part of. I feel like everyone's lives. I see it. It's so crazy seeing the rise of it for the past few years, because I use. It used to be so I used to have the hardest time finding them in convenience stores, and I literally find them everywhere now, and I just feel like that's a testament to how good it is. Also, I am, like, on my own fitness journey, so having being able to, like, have soda and not feel bad about myself after, which is something that, like, I've just struggled with personally, like, is a game changer for me. Like, I die for Poppy. Like, if, you know. You know, when I was posting videos back in 2023, like, 17 times a day, I was making up random jingles for Poppy and just, like, it was like, so the fact that they're, like, now sponsoring the podcast is just. It feels so correct. Poppy soda's back, but so much better. Well, Casey, what are you therapist about today?

[Kacey Musgraves]

What if it's nothing? I don't know.

[Poppy]

It can be nothing. It doesn't have to be anything.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Pissed. Like, as in I'm pissed off.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

What's yours?

[Poppy]

Mine is. Missed my workout.

[Louise]

Oh.

[Poppy]

And I'm trying to, like, be like, it's fine. It's fine. It's not fine. You actually want to what my real one is?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Poppy]

It's so shallow. You're gonna be like, literally, like, in the interview, I posted an Instagram dump

[Kacey Musgraves]

and you forgot one picture.

[Poppy]

I just, like, didn't feel like it did. It did what it needed to do. Louise was like this. Louise said to me, this isn't giving what you think it's giving.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Isn't it? Isn't it weird how some just don't.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And you're like, ew, what was that?

[Poppy]

I. It's like, I love. I, I am also pissed about the fact that I'm entering this era of wanting to curate my life again.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, yeah.

[Poppy]

And I felt like I was out of that for so long, and I feel like I'm entering.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

And I like where it's like, I want to be seen as cool and like, cool boy.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Well, maybe the curation is the, in the uncuration.

[Poppy]

It is.

[Kacey Musgraves]

That makes sense.

[Poppy]

It is. And like, I found. And I was that for so long, and that's when I connected with the most amount of people, is when I

[Kacey Musgraves]

didn't care about, when there wasn't a curated.

[Poppy]

But now I'm back to curating because I feel, I wonder what that is. It's that I feel physically attractive again. And I am. I, I like my, I like my body. And I'm like, that's awesome.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It.

[Poppy]

It is awesome. But I'm, I'm having more too. Yeah. But I'm like, I'm, I'm. I'm starting to fall into that trap that I once fell into where it's like, once I like my body or I like my appearance, now I have to behave a certain way or act

[Kacey Musgraves]

a certain way or misbehave.

[Poppy]

Like, do you know what I mean? I'm like, it all stems from, like, this deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper insecurity that I have that it's like, maybe I, I don't know what I'm trying to say. It's like I'm falling into this era where I, I, I'm happy to present myself physically to the world again because I felt for a while very insecure and unattractive and in a, in presenting myself.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

These new insecurities kind of come about again that are, like, over. But make sure you look like this. Make sure you look like this. Make sure you look like this. And I think that's. If that makes. I think that was a lot of word vomit. But if that makes.

[Kacey Musgraves]

No, but it's interesting that you're saying in a roundabout since sense that the newfound security is also for some reason, giving you insecurity.

[Poppy]

Yes. I don't know. Why.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Why? Well, maybe because, like, you're feeling yourself and you're feeling the urge to, like, put yourself out there again. But with that does come some opinions, Right. I don't know. And is there, like, a fear of that?

[Poppy]

I think it's a fear of, like.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I'm your therapist now.

[Poppy]

No, please. I. And honestly, this is like my. My dream. I think it's like. I think I'm so. I think I'm still insecure is what it is.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I mean, aren't we all? Jesus Christ. For me, it's a rotating. It's like a rotating door of. What are you gonna feel today? Some days I'm like, yeah. And then some days I'm just like. I'm the fugliest.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Person I've ever.

[Louise]

Scene.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And I. Like. It's. Body dysmorphia kicks in. You know what I mean? It's real.

[Poppy]

It's real.

[Kacey Musgraves]

No, it's real. Like, I literally have that.

[Poppy]

It's like. I think it's. I'm not as. I think. What it is is that the base I thought I've created is not as secure as I thought. It's like. Like, it's literally like plain Tetris or not Tetris. What's the Jenga? Jenga?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Poppy]

It's like Jenga.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's like anxiety game.

[Poppy]

Yeah. It's like the base that I thought I had isn't as powerful as I thought because all it takes is one night out where I'm feeling good, and then a man will be, like, flirting with me, and then I'll see him flirting with someone else, and then everything just completely 180s.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I think you're anxiously attached.

[Poppy]

Okay.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I think you're an anxious attacher.

[Poppy]

What is it? Okay, can you explain?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Okay.

[Poppy]

Please.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I need make it that. Yeah, no, no. It's really interesting. There's a book and these psychologists studied. Probably gonna butcher this myself. But they studied, like, the way that it could be, like, even how much your mother or your caregiver, whoever, like, picked. Picked you up and loved on you physically, like, as a. Like, how much did that happen? Or were they not in the picture? Or, like, there's probably so much psychologically that goes into it. Like, were you left to cry it out versus being like, there's probably so many. You know what I mean? And how your parents showed you love, how you were responded to, shaped how you crave love and give love. You know what I mean? How you give and receive. And so, like, the goal is to be a securely attached person. So no matter, like, how the other person is regulated or not. Like you're standing firm and your secureness in the relationship knowing that like what, however that other person behaves has nothing to do with you. It's how it's, it all has to do with them. Right.

[Poppy]

Wow.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And that's, and, and that's the goal is to stand firm in that. You know what I mean? But every, usually most people sway to one side or the other, so either anxious or avoidant. And it's, it kind of just speaks to like how you view connection, I guess. And so like an anxious attacher just really wants that closeness and they have this deep seated fear that they're either not good enough or that the person's going to leave or the relationship's just gonna like fall apart.

[Poppy]

You know what I mean?

[Kacey Musgraves]

And so they hold on tighter and they, maybe they control more or they like, you know, maybe they create issues that aren't there. You know what I mean? Like, hey, you didn't call me back. Like it's worst case scenario thinking they didn't call me back for six hours. They must hate me.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

You know what I mean? You know, did I do something wrong? Did they hate me? Whatever. And then the, the flip side of that is the person who feels very like suffocated, kind of trapped or claustrophobic by deep connection, maybe they have a deep fear of being rejected if someone really sees who they are. So they push. I do think that there is a hybrid which is, yes, I don't know how to help you, but yeah, but Normally it's interesting. 2. Avoidance. Don't usually get into a relationship together because there's got to be, there's this like, almost like this, this mathematical need for like a push and a pull in a relationship. And so usually it's the anxious, the pursuer and then the person that's backing off and it makes the other person pursue more and then, and then it just kind of like does that. But yeah, it's really, really an interesting theory. You know what I mean? And the book is really helpful and it speaks to like if you're anxiously attached or if you're avoidant. Like here's kind of like how you can sort of like move more towards like a securely attached. You don't want to be too far on either side.

[Poppy]

I feel like I hear this a lot in your music. The one you're telling me about this I'm like, I'm thinking of songs, give or take. Her.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh yeah. Nothing to be scared of.

[Louise]

Oh, nothing.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I know that one Hurts.

[Poppy]

No, that one for me when I first. I remember actually exactly where I was. I was in that back area smoking a joint Love with my best friends. And the chorus to Nothing to be Scared of or nothing to be scared of came on and we all just like, took a moment. Come to me.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

And drop your bags.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

I will help you unpack them. Like, I've never that. Because that's the goal. That's all I.

[Kacey Musgraves]

We all have the baggage. Like, we all come to relationships carrying luggage from previous places. And. Yeah, you just gotta be with the right people that will help you go, okay, you have this. Well, I have this. Let's. Let's put it away. You know what I mean? And it was me just really trying to convince the person that, like, subconsciously it was a song kind of for to them in a sense, saying, like to an avoidant person saying, you. You have nothing to be scared of. Like, it's. I'm here. Like, I'm not. You know, like, love is not something to be fearful of. And then that person broke up with me over text, so it meant it was all for nothing.

[Poppy]

You know what, though?

[Kacey Musgraves]

But the songs, the song were there, so.

[Poppy]

Wow. I like, love hearing you talk about the story behind those songs because, like,

[Kacey Musgraves]

a lot of real life, it's it.

[Poppy]

But that's the magic of you. I, like, really feel like I'm in the presence of greatness right now.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, my God.

[Poppy]

No, I. And I. I'm sorry, I really don't want to make you feel weird or anything, but, like, I really feel like I'm in the breath. I like, genuinely feel like I'm in the presence of like, one of the greatest songwriters of my life. Of our life, because ours. You speak your experience without fear of. And I think. Did that change for you a little after Golden Hour, after you felt a little more seen publicly?

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's. That's an interesting question because, like, you know, I make all the music because it makes. It does something for me. It's therapeutic for me. Right. And it's just a cherry on the. On the cake that, like, other people connect with it, right? And then something happens, like album of the year. And out of all the music that was made, I mean, for whatever reason won that title. And that was extremely life changing for me. And it can be freaky because, you know, you can go. You're at. You're at a fork in the road there when something like that happens because you can either go, okay. Like, I feel validated in the fact that when I made Golden Hour. It was unlike any other record I had previously made, that it was very different than. Same trailer, certain pageant material. And I felt like I was kind of going out on a limb a bit, like, with the style of it. But I felt like it was really special to me. And I had no roadmap other than just, like, what made me feel really good. And then it ended up really connecting. And I think there's a lot to what makes an album, like, really land. It's, like, a lot of time and play, like, right time, right place, the climate in the world just supports it for whatever reason. And you can go, okay. I feel really validated that people really connected with this. I'm gonna keep doing that. You know what I mean? I'm gonna keep, like, my. I'm gonna. My only compass needs to be what makes me feel good and what feels authentic to me. Because ultimately, that's one. That's what's going to keep connecting. Right? But you can. It can also, admittedly, give you a little bit of, like. Oh, like, now people. Do they really expect another golden hour.

[Poppy]

Right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

You know what I mean? And I think it's interesting because, you know, golden hour happened. And while I was at, like, this really high, like, high point in my, like, creative life, I was at a really low point in my personal life, my love life, you know what I mean? Coming out of that and going through a divorce and then writing Star Cross, which was, like, a record that I had to make as a creative. And I was in this really intense, kind of visceral place in my life. And the music sort of reflects that. It's like. There's a lot of, like, electronic elements. It's kind of harsh at times. It's very layered and affected. And I think a lot of people were, like, thrown off by it because they really wanted another golden hour. That's what they were expecting. And it was a total pivot. And I would like to think that I have the fan base that if they maybe. If they don't, like, totally love the album that I put out, maybe they can at least respect the fact that I didn't just turn the same goddamn thing in or try to recreate it, because you can't recreate that magic twice. It's gonna sound fake.

[Poppy]

Right?

[Kacey Musgraves]

You know what I mean? You could probably get similar, but it'll just eventually start sounding like you're creating the same thing over and over, and you're gonna sound like a pigeonholed. Like it's not going to have that Fresh that life to it. You know what I mean? And so, anyway, justice for Star Cross. That's all I'm saying.

[Poppy]

I love Star Crossed.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I love Star Cross, too.

[Poppy]

Did you feel that? Was that pressure really hard for you to deal with, though? Like, after everyone's like, okay, Golden Hour, part two, here we go. Or were you, like, it was annoying

[Kacey Musgraves]

to me that people. I don't think they got it. I really don't think that they got Star Cross. But I also was just like, I really don't care. I mean it. I loved making that album, and there was so much, like, beautiful cosmic synergy through me and that and that album and making it and just the imagery and where I was at and the storytelling and then, like, the. The whole. The movie that I got to. The Star Cross movie that I got to make with it. I mean, it's something that I'm really proud of. So, like, I don't really care if you don't get it. Like, it feels good to me, but I just think it's more so about what people were expecting. You know what I mean?

[Poppy]

Right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

But, like, I really love when an artist takes a chance, and if I don't love their, you know, new record or whatever, I'll catch them on the next one. I'll be like, whatever. Like, you know what I mean?

[Poppy]

Wow. I love that you just said that. I feel like in today's culture, with Twitter and stand bases and. And how fast the news cycle goes,

[Kacey Musgraves]

people like, kind of your. What is it? I want to say they. They make your worth to them or your importance equal to how much they connect with. With your latest creation.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And that's not really, like, what it should be about, I feel, but they put so much weight onto, like, did I connect with this? She's done. I'm. I'm off of her.

[Poppy]

Right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

You know?

[Poppy]

Right. And it fell off, but it's. You fell in love with that person because that person wrote music as a person and like, you just so happened to.

[Kacey Musgraves]

To converge.

[Poppy]

Converge at the same time. Yeah. Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And relate to. And, like, it's okay that you don't on this one. Maybe you'll love the next one, you know? Yeah. It's interesting.

[Poppy]

Yeah. I've never heard it laid out like that, but that is really what I think is going on in our.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. Like, if you think about, like, I'm trying to think of an example just like any, like, Weezer. I'm just trying to think of, like, any band that I've, like, loved for a Long time. Or, like, I'm just trying to think of, like, any, like, Patty Griffin, any songwriter, whoever. Like, they might put out a record and not be. I might, like, really love it. And then, like, their next one, I might be, like, it's not really for me, but I can still respect who they are and respect that. Hey, they tried something different.

[Poppy]

I think a perfect example is Brat by Charlie xcx. It came at the perfect. The perfect time. It was just the perfect storm of, like, this harsh. I feel like we were so. And I think we were trapped by Covid longer than we thought.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, are we? Yeah, that. I. I know. I'm like, was that a wormhole? Like, did we. I saw some theory. It was like, did we all actually die during COVID And this is hell? No.

[Poppy]

Sometimes I think if I'm driving in a car and I almost get hit by a car, there's a parallel universe in which I did get hit by that car.

[Kacey Musgraves]

There probably is.

[Poppy]

Yeah. Right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

No, it's trippy.

[Poppy]

It's trippy.

[Kacey Musgraves]

We probably don't want to get on the subject of quantum physics, because then we'll be here forever, and you'll be like, I'm never ever going to talk to her ever again.

[Poppy]

No, I just won't understand. I'll have to go sentence by sentence. Where the. Tell me what's wrong. They're over by uk. Oh, it's the envelope right there.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, yeah, that's right. Let's look at these.

[Poppy]

Oh, do the honors. Do the honors, please. Do the honors. I wish you could stay here forever.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I know. Sleepover, please.

[Poppy]

Oh, my God. Sleep over with Casey would be the best man in my life.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Honestly, that'd be a fun, like, series or something. Or, like, not serious, but, like, a little, like.

[Poppy]

You've now sprouted an idea. Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

We're gonna bake cookies. We're gonna braid each other's hair. Yes. We're gonna play board games. Smoke weed, smoke. We're gonna do a Ouija board. Are you. You're probably not into that.

[Poppy]

I'll. I'm into whatever you are into.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Okay, so do I read these or do you?

[Poppy]

Please.

[Kacey Musgraves]

My close friend Homewrecked. Homewrecked is in all caps, by the way. My close friend homewrecked a relationship with one of my close friends and is confused why I won't stand up for her. It's a town scandal. We've been friends for years, but this may be the end. For real. As someone in a relationship, I don't want to defend her and condone the behavior. Am I allowed to drop her? I feel like she needs a little help since everyone's ganging up on her. But it's not a good look.

[Poppy]

You know, I think you might be the problem in the sense that you're viewing this friendship as a look thing. Like, you're like, it's not. She's saying, like, what. What do you think?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Think I've been friends with some homeworkers before. It's a conflicting place to be in. And you're. Because you're like, oh, why are you making bad choices like that?

[Poppy]

But just because they made the bad decisions doesn't mean they need to lose you.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, that's true. Maybe they need some truth teller. But see, yeah, maybe they need some truth tellers. Here's my question, I guess is, can you be truthful with this girl and really, like, tell her what maybe she doesn't want to hear, you know? Because that's a real friend. Not just. I understand. Not just walking out because somebody did something embarrassing. But if, maybe if this is a pattern for this girl or whatever, then I think it does speak to a larger character. And, like, do you want to be friends with someone like that?

[Poppy]

Right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

But also, I guess that's her business. Right?

[Poppy]

Like, it's so not black and white. It just. You need more context on her friendship because she's probably feeling, I'm in a relationship. There's probably that underlying feeling of, would she home wreck my relationship?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Right. Yeah. Like, what is her moral? Where are her moral standards?

[Poppy]

Like, how far could she go?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Right.

[Poppy]

But I would say it's. It's very hard to drop someone. It's not hard. It's very. When someone's at their lowest, sometimes I do believe that you kind of just have to let them hold on to you for a second as they get their standings.

[Kacey Musgraves]

That's true. Like, maybe sometimes you have to give someone a place where they can maybe be their shittiest version of themselves and still receive the love, you know?

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

But at the same time, I mean, ever. There's a line for everything. Right? But that's a toughie.

[Poppy]

It's a toughie. I prescribe home record by Somber.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, do you have this.

[Poppy]

Do you have a song of yours that you would have them listen to?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Maybe not dry spell.

[Poppy]

Not dry spell. Maybe deeper.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Well, yeah, let's go inward.

[Poppy]

Yeah, let's go inward. Let's go inward.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Okay. Do you want to read the next one? Okay.

[Poppy]

I'm so hyper fixated on being in a relationship. As I'm 29 and never had a boyfriend. Me either, but I'm 26. I put myself out there, but I'm so insecure that I over that I always just overcompensate and make a fool of myself or shut down entirely. What can I do to take the pressure off this ticking clock?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Well, I do feel like it's a cliche, but it's really, really true that the moment that you really kind of stop caring and you like stop wanting something so bad is kind of usually like in terms of relationships and love, it's kind of when it finds you. Yeah, that's like kind of what happens to me is like when I feel like when I'm not looking for it at all, then like, there it is.

[Poppy]

How do you stop looking? Is it fake it till you make it?

[Kacey Musgraves]

I think maybe just focusing on yourself and your interests and like, I feel like if you, you know, put yourself in positions to where like you're, I don't know, whatever it is that you like to do, like you, you just keep pursuing you, you're gonna maximize your chances of running into someone that is very like minded and that you might find a lot of common ground with and it won't feel like this like forced thing that you're like, not sure of. You know what I mean?

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

But yeah, nobody likes to try hard. Like, that's like. I feel like someone can spot that from a mile away as someone who desperately want. And it kind of gives like vibes of like, oh, you know.

[Poppy]

You know what that reminds me of is your song on your upcoming record, Loneliest Girl.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, yeah, it does.

[Poppy]

Or Space Cowboy.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But like Loneliest Girl specifically, it's like I made a lot of peace during this album time frame. I made a lot of peace with like being on my own and being single. And it was the longest single period that I've ever had. And I used to be kind of like really terrified to be alone. And I dropped that with this. I was like, wait, it's kind of awesome. Like I kind of started to really prefer it. And just as I was really starting to like, prefer it is when I like met somebody and I was like, okay. And then you're kind of conflicted there because you're like, I've been really valuing my like, sovereignty, my like freedom. My me.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

You know, and now I have this and now. Yeah, but I think after you have been like single for a while and you find the value in that and the Confidence in that, Then you're able to kind of just put things back in your life or put things in your life that, like, really only add. You know what I mean? So I don't know. What would you say to that person?

[Poppy]

I am that person.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Okay. You wrote that card.

[Poppy]

I wrote. I wrote it. I would say, for me, I think it's different being gay, and I think.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Why do you think it's different?

[Poppy]

Because I didn't get to have those experiences of crushes in high school that the way most straight people would.

[Kacey Musgraves]

You mean being, like, closeted and being.

[Poppy]

No, no. Just being gay. There weren't many. It's like you're in a class. I was in a class of 60 kids, and, you know, it was girl like boy, girl like boy, boy like girl.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

And for me, it was like, well, if there's one other gay person, you should obviously go for them. And I think having.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And you were like, not about it.

[Poppy]

Well, it just wasn't for me, and I think that's a tough feeling. And I have a group of gay guy friends that have changed my life. And I think finding for me the way that I have really, like, that has therapized myself, is surrounding myself with. With Will, Travis, and Charlie, who are my best friends, and, like, being like, I feel this way. Like, do you feel this way, too? And they're like, yeah, I also feel that way.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

I'm just, like, feeling not alone in the fact that it's okay that I haven't had all the experiences that my girlfriends have because I'm a girl's guy

[Kacey Musgraves]

at the end of the day.

[Poppy]

Like, I was raised around women. Like, all my best friends are girls. But to have those gay guy friends for me has really been, like, probably pretty validating. Very validating. And it's made me more confident because I think, like, also my gay guy friends are like, you would. They're, like, the most beautiful people in the entire world to me. And, like, for them to also be like, I feel that same way. It's very validating.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, I totally. I totally get that. I'm glad you have that.

[Poppy]

My husband is friends with two girls from childhood who definitely hate me, and I also definitely dislike them. Not to mention one of them used to have a fat crush on him. I brought this up to him subtly, and he told me he'd cut them off if I really wanted to. But I don't want to be the reason anyone loses friendships. What do I do do?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Why do they hate her? I guess they're just being.

[Poppy]

Have you ever experienced that?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Not really, but it'd be really hard to not be like, fine, then cut them off then.

[Poppy]

Yeah, fine then.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I don't know. I mean, like, I don't know. What would you say to that?

[Poppy]

Like, I would say your husband is putting you in a tough place. Yeah, by being like, if you want me to, I will. He offered it. Just do it then.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It sounds like he offered it. And so maybe my question for him is it doesn't sound like the relationship. His friendship with those two girls, which is that weird anyway, his. It sounds like it wasn't that stable or worth keeping to begin with. If he was so easily able to be like, well, I'll just cut him off.

[Poppy]

Right. Well, then, okay, maybe he likes the validation from one of them. They used to have a crush on him.

[Kacey Musgraves]

He loves being in the middle of it. It's an ego thing for sure. Okay, so wait, he's the problem.

[Poppy]

He's the problem.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah, That's.

[Poppy]

That's.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Glad we cleared that up.

[Poppy]

I've been talking to this guy, and he's been stealing my underwear. I've caught him twice now. The first time, he was joking about taking them after we hooked up. And then when he left, I looked on the floor and realized it wasn't a joke. We texted about it, and he was like, I wasn't joking. Then I was like, okay, that's maybe semi normal. Idk, I'll look past it. But he did it again. I don't know. For me, I'd be like, that's sweet.

[Kacey Musgraves]

What is she getting out of this?

[Poppy]

I don't know. But for me, I'd be like, oh, my God, he wants my underwear.

[Kacey Musgraves]

He can venmo her.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Like, I don't know. Like, okay, 300 each pair, right? What? Like, what are we. Like, it has to be mutually beneficial, right?

[Poppy]

I. For me, I'm such, like, a weirdo. I feel like that I'd be like, oh, my God, Louise. Like, he keeps taking my underwear.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Like, but, like, is it weirder if he asks you if he can have them? Because I feel like probably the thrill is, like, taking them. You know what I mean? For him.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I'm not speaking from personal, but yeah, I'm like, I don't. It is weird, but I. Well, I don't want to. Kink shame.

[Poppy]

Right.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I don't want to. Yeah, but, like, what. What is she getting out of it?

[Poppy]

Thousand.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Okay.

[Poppy]

This is a beautiful one to end on, I think. I love singing and songwriting, and I've done it my whole life. I'm getting to a point where if I want to continue, I need to make some things a reality. It's very clear that the people in my life don't believe in me or just flat out don't care, which is fine, but it doesn't help. I'm really considering giving up on this and going back to college for something else. But I can't help but not let this dream go when I think about moving on. Any advice?

[Kacey Musgraves]

It sounds like they're not that good.

[Poppy]

You think?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Chase the dream girl. I know. I'm just kidding. I really don't know what to say. I don't know to say, like, can we hear the music?

[Poppy]

Right? We would have to hear the music.

[Kacey Musgraves]

We have to hear the music. But like, who's not caring? I mean, I don't know. Like, I didn't really consider if I was even good or not. I just never had a backup plan. I was just like, I'm doing this. I didn't go to college. I was like, no. Like, it just was in my mind. I was like this. No, this is what I'm doing. And I just kind of dealt with everything like along the way. So like I, I was really lucky, I will say, like, in having my family's support from a very early age. It was like, like almost too much. It was like, oh, let's load up the minivan and go state to state. And like then my whole childhood kind of became about performing. So I kind of have the, the opposite thing, which I'm really glad that I had it now because it's like quite literally made me who I am. So that would be really sad to feel like you don't have your, you know, your people's like, support. But I mean, if it's, if it's like a burning desire that you have, I mean, you have to see it through. You gotta, you gotta, I think like you have to give it your all knowing that you did. So you know what I mean? Like, you can say I, I've really tried this important thing happen to me. Or maybe it just like shape shifts along the way and if you have to have a different source of income, I mean there's a lot of people who have, there's a lot of creatives that have some form of a job that pays the bills that maybe isn't soul fulfilling. And then like they find a way to do that soul fulfilling thing. And maybe it's not the thing that's the breadwinner, but it's Like. But it's. There.

[Poppy]

Be a starving artist, but there.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah. Eat ramen.

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Yeah.

[Poppy]

Well, can. Before I let you. Let you go, can I ask you what your favorite song or maybe a lyric. Can I ask you what your favorite song or maybe like a fairy tale favorite lyric that you've ever written is?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Why are you doing this to me?

[Poppy]

I. I just. I. I have to.

[Kacey Musgraves]

That's a toxic question.

[Poppy]

I know, but I have to. Something you're most proud of.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, man. I relate to all of them for so many different reasons. I mean, like, I don't know why Hookup scene just came to mind. I, like, really, really love that song so much. I think ultimately, maybe Slow Burn, I think it feels the best. I feel like I'm at home in my dead center whenever I'm playing that song. Always.

[Poppy]

My favorite line from that song, obviously, is, sun's going down, but in Beijing, they're headed out to work. What do you mean by that? Me and. Me and Manny, who I work with, debated every single day.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Really?

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

It's not like a deep.

[Poppy]

I know.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Coded thing.

[Poppy]

I know this one isn't. So what do you. What does that mean to you?

[Kacey Musgraves]

It literally just means what it means. It just means they're going to work and I'm over here. Like, the sun's going down in Tennessee. And like, over there across the world, people are like, it's a different day, and they're, like, going to work and starting their next day. And, like, I'm over here and it was very, like, stream of conscious. Like, I wasn't putting a lot of thought and, like, it just was. It just, like, kind of came out, you know what I mean? Because I was just picturing. I was sitting on my porch in Tennessee and picturing these people around the world like. Like, doing their thing over there, you know, it's like the world just keeps turning and. Yeah.

[Poppy]

And you're all right with the slow burn.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And I am all right with a slow burn and.

[Poppy]

Oh, God, I love that song. That's that album. Everything you do is just brilliant.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Thank you.

[Poppy]

Casey. What did we learn today?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Don't homewreck.

[Poppy]

Don't home.

[Kacey Musgraves]

That was one. What did you learn? Anxious Attachment.

[Poppy]

I learned about the attachment styles. I learned about UFOs. About UFOs.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I've learned that a podcast can be extremely comfortable and really fun.

[Poppy]

That's what you learn?

[Kacey Musgraves]

You can ask my team. I don't really, like, do a lot of podcasts.

[Poppy]

And you had fun doing this?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Oh, I'm like, Not leaving.

[Poppy]

I really don't want you to go.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I told you. We're having to sleep over it, so.

[Poppy]

I'm so glad that that was your takeaway. I feel I. My takeaway was, like, meet your heroes, because they're going to tell you exactly what you thought of that. Like, exactly how I envisioned. How you envision your work is what. How you see it.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Well, that makes me feel good because it makes me feel like my vision was received, you know?

[Poppy]

Yeah.

[Kacey Musgraves]

And that. I love that.

[Poppy]

I think you were put on this earth to write and sing songs, and I'm so grateful I got to talk

[Kacey Musgraves]

to you about it, guys.

[Poppy]

I really. I, like, really am. Like, I think, like, you are just. I could talk about how brilliant you are for hours on end.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I mean, are you all hearing this?

[Poppy]

Yes.

[Kacey Musgraves]

He said it. He said.

[Poppy]

And I think your new album, Middle of Nowhere, is so, so, so incredible.

[Kacey Musgraves]

That makes me feel good because I was, like, nervous. I've been nervous. I'm like, is this boring?

[Poppy]

No, it's not boring. But that goes back to the quote that I read you at the beginning, which is that you make the things in life. I think the. The most beautiful art is when you make something so unextraordinary, extraordinary. And that is what you do with your music.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Thank you.

[Poppy]

And you do such a wonderful, incredible job of doing it.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Thank you so much. I feel so uplifted right now. Like, no one can crash this high.

[Poppy]

No. And as they shouldn't, because I'm gonna

[Kacey Musgraves]

be coasting on this for weeks.

[Poppy]

Yeah. I'm so glad. No, but really deserve it. Like, your music does that for a lot of people. It's timeless. At the end of the day, it's timeless music.

[Kacey Musgraves]

I love that compliment.

[Poppy]

It's. It really is.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Thank you. Because, I mean, you know, the hope is that, like, something that was really important to you lasts and still either matters or feels really good in 10, 20 years or however long. You know what I mean? Like, it's really trippy to think that, like, the things that you create are gonna outlive you. You know what I mean? Isn't that creepy?

[Poppy]

Yeah, that is creepy. Do you think about that often?

[Kacey Musgraves]

Sometimes I'm kind of like. Like, that's so weird. Like, when I'm dead and gone, like, there's gonna be, like, a little trace of me out there, you know? Weird.

[Poppy]

But it's so timeless, and that's why it will be there.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Well, thank you.

[Poppy]

And stream Middle of nowhere out May 1st.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Like, and subscribe.

[Poppy]

Do it all.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Bye. Thank you.

[Poppy]

Love you, Casey. Thank.

[Kacey Musgraves]

Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho. Look for that rooftop dinner. Those sandals that can keep up with you. And hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling, Ross. Work your magic.