Session 66: Lucy Dacus - Therapuss with Jake Shane

Summary4 min read

Therapuss with Jake Shane – Session 66: Lucy Dacus

Release Date: April 10, 2025

Introduction

In this engaging episode of Therapuss with Jake Shane, the renowned singer-songwriter Lucy Dacus joins host Jake Shane for an intimate and introspective conversation. The episode delves deep into Lucy's creative process, her latest album, touring experiences, personal philosophies, and offers heartfelt advice on listeners' dilemmas.

1. Celebrating "Forever's a Feeling"

Lucy Dacus' fourth studio album, Forever's a Feeling, takes center stage in the discussion. Released on March 28th, the album has been lauded for its rich exploration of love and nostalgia.

Themes and Inspiration: The album intertwines themes of love with reminiscing about past relationships. Lucy explains, “[04:44] 'Big Deal' and 'Angles' are standout tracks, each encapsulating different facets of love and memory."
Collaboration with Hozier: A highlight is the collaboration on the song "Bullseye". Jake praises, “[35:07] Bullseye is my favorite because your voices blend so beautifully with Hozier’s.”
Creative Process: Lucy shares insights into her songwriting, noting, “[17:26]’Lyrics over melody’ is my mantra. The lyrics have to remain paramount, ensuring the story shines through the music.”

2. Touring and Performances

Touring is a significant part of Lucy's life, and she discusses the highs and lows with Jake.

Favorite Performances: Reflecting on past gigs, Lucy fondly recalls performing with boygenius at Gunnersbury Park in London, “[06:44] …we had fireworks, and it was like a dream come true.”
Emotional Challenges: Touring isn't without its challenges. Lucy shares, “[21:34] Some nights are tough, and I need to let it out by weeping in a corner. It’s a part of the process.”

3. Songwriting and Personal Insights

The duo delves into the intricacies of songwriting and personal growth.

Lyricism: Lucy emphasizes the importance of lyrics, stating, “[17:26] Lyrics have to be king at all moments. They drive the song’s meaning and emotional resonance.”
Personal Growth: Discussing grief and gratitude, Lucy reflects, “[30:39] Losing loved ones early on made me super aware of temporality and the importance of gratitude.”

4. Music Preferences and Inspirations

Both Jake and Lucy share their favorite artists and albums, revealing their diverse musical tastes.

Lucy’s Favorites: “[45:30] My most listened-to record is I Need to Start a Garden by Haley Hendricks. Her voice is one of the most beautiful I’ve ever heard.”
Jake’s Favorites: Jake expresses his admiration for artists like Ryan Beatty and Nina Simone, highlighting their impactful songwriting and vocal prowess.

5. Astrology and Personality

A brief segment on astrology sheds light on their personalities.

Signs and Traits: Lucy identifies as a Gemini Moon, while Jake shares, “[12:07] I’m a Gemini Moon and Gemini Rising. I’m so talkative, but sometimes my social battery just burns out.”

6. Advice Segment: "Tell Me What's Wrong"

The heart of the episode features Lucy and Jake addressing listeners' personal issues with empathy and practical advice.

Handling a Difficult Roommate: Jake shares his predicament: “[67:12] Me and my roommate keep getting in fights because I like to sleep freezing and she keeps the thermostat at 75.” Lucy suggests, “[67:26] Maybe switch off nights or use personal heaters and fans to compromise.”
Navigating Situationships: Addressing Jake’s question, “[61:00] I’ve been in a situationship for two years and can’t seem to get out of it,” Lucy advises, “[62:56] Embrace self-respect and self-awareness. If it’s not meeting your needs, it might be time to move on.”
Dealing with Ghosting: Reflecting on Jake’s experience with ghosting, Lucy provides insightful perspectives, “[66:57] Ghosting can sometimes reveal more about the other person’s inability to commit than about you.”

7. Renewable Energy Debate

In an unexpected twist, Lucy passionately discusses her stance on renewable energy.

Skepticism on Renewables: “[52:18] I think renewable energy is a hoax. Solar panels last only 25 years and necessitate lithium mining, which is terrible for the environment.”
Environmental Concerns: She elaborates, “[53:33] Hydroelectric power disrupts natural habitats, and wind turbines can harm wildlife and make land unusable for farming.”
Call for Real Solutions: Lucy urges for genuine environmental solutions beyond current renewable methods, expressing frustration with superficial efforts like recycling.

8. Personal Stories and Reflections

The conversation is peppered with personal anecdotes that humanize both hosts.

Meeting Ariana Grande: Early in the episode, Jake shares his excitement about meeting Ariana Grande, describing the encounter as “[00:51] the most incredible night.”
Dreams and Nightmares: Both discuss their emotional experiences, including Jake’s nightmare about his tour manager, highlighting the pressures of public life.

Conclusion

Therapuss with Jake Shane – Session 66 offers a candid and enriching conversation between Jake and Lucy. From the depths of songwriting to the challenges of touring, and from personal growth to environmental concerns, the episode is a testament to the therapeutic power of open dialogue. Lucy Dacus’ revelations about her new album and her thoughtful advice segments provide listeners with both inspiration and practical insights.

Notable Quotes:

Jake Shane [35:07]: “Bullseye is my favorite because your voices blend so beautifully with Hozier’s.”
Lucy Dacus [17:26]: “Lyrics over melody is my mantra. The lyrics have to remain paramount, ensuring the story shines through the music.”
Lucy Dacus [30:39]: “Losing loved ones early on made me super aware of temporality and the importance of gratitude.”
Lucy Dacus [52:18]: “I think renewable energy is a hoax. Solar panels last only 25 years and necessitate lithium mining, which is terrible for the environment.”
Jake Shane [21:34]: “Some nights are tough, and I need to let it out by weeping in a corner. It’s a part of the process.”

Stream Forever's a Feeling

Don’t miss out on Lucy Dacus’ latest masterpiece, Forever's a Feeling, available now. Discover the depth of her songwriting and the beauty of her melodies by streaming the album on your favorite platforms.

Note: The timestamps correspond to the transcript provided and highlight key moments in the conversation.

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Transcript667 lines

[00:09]
Jake Shane
Hi. Welcome back to Therapists. This week we have on Lucy Dacus. She just released her new album, Forever's a Feeling. It's amazing. She's amazing. I was so honored and happy to have her here, but aside from that, we had a very exciting week. Last week I announced my guest spot in Hacks, which is my favorite show. I'm so. It was literally, like, filming with them was like, the best. Best days of, like, the best day, few days of my life. Like, it was like, seriously the most rewarding. Like, I felt so, like, proud of myself and, like, I don't know, like, grateful. It was just amazing. I'm so excited for you guys to see it. Like, it was. It's just the best. We're going to the premiere tonight. And I also met Ariana Grande, which was amazing. Had to process it for a few days because, like, I walked in and I didn't think she was going to be there. Like, I knew she was going to be at the event, but I didn't think she was going to be there that early on. And I, like, looked to my right and she was there. And, like, my heart, like, fell into my stomach and I was like, you know what I mean? And I, like, didn't really know how to. She's, like, actually the nicest person ever. I actually can't believe. I still really can't believe that I met her. But her. Her whole team, Courtney, like, they were so welcoming and so lovely. Like, I. It was the most incredible night. Like, being able to tell someone who means so much to you, like, how much they mean to you is, like, the best feeling in the entire world. I'm binge watching the leftovers right now. It's amazing. Carrie Coons in it. I started watching it because of White Lotus and someone was like, Carrie Coons also in the Leftovers. And also Justin Thoreau is, like, the hottest person I've ever seen in my entire life. I'm on season two as of right now. Season two, Episode four Outstanding, you guys. It's my new addiction. It's my new addiction. You have to watch it. I'm trying to think of anything else that I've been up to. I've been listening to a lot of Bon Iver. You love, huh? Don't you?
[01:58]
Lucy Dacus
Love?
[01:59]
Jake Shane
Yeah. I just got. I mean, I've. I. I've listened to them in passing, but I just really got into them.
[02:04]
Lucy Dacus
Which.
[02:05]
Jake Shane
What's your favorite album? Right now I'm on Bon Iver. Bon Iver. That's really good. 4 Emma Forever Agos. Well, yeah, but that. That one I had listened to prior, but Bonnie Vere, Bonnie Bear, I actually am way into. And I like their new stuff. I like their new stuff a lot. I think it's great. I'm excited for that album. I think it comes out this week. April 11th. Yeah. Yeah, I'm super excited. I think I go. I think I'm going to. Oh, my God. I think. I know. I'm leaving for Coachella tomorrow night. Just get me to the desert. I just gotta go. I gotta go. I gotta go now. I've been thinking about it. I have no. I have one T shirt and that's it. I have one T shirt for it and that's the only thing I bought. So let's just hope for the best here. I'm excited to go and be with everyone and just dance and see Charlie XCX and Lady Gaga. But yes, Lucy Dacus is on tonight's episode and she is amazing. Probably. She probably got me the most calm I've ever been in this room, which was awesome. But I'm such a fan of her and such a fan of boy genius that it was so cool to have her here. I don't know if you guys remember, but like one time I was behind boy genius on a red carpet and I looked so gagged. If somebody can find that photo, let me know. It's really funny. Stream Forever is a feeling out now. It's incredible. My favorite song is big deal and I also love angles, which I know is a single and a very basic answer, but I really do love angles. Like I hyper fixated on that song for a few days. You can see if I'm coming to a city near you by going to passthatpost.com, clicking Live with Jake Shane and checking out the dates. And to submit a tell me what's wrong, go to passthatpost.com click tell me what's wrong and tell me what's wrong. Submit a name and number if you're feeling fancy and enjoy tonight's episode. Love you, pussies. Hi, pussies. Welcome back to therapists. Today we have the one, the only, lucy dacus. Her fourth studio album is out March 28th. It's called Forever is a feeling and it is so incredible. I loose welcome Lucy Dinkus.
[03:57]
Lucy Dacus
Thank you very much.
[03:58]
Jake Shane
I love your album.
[04:00]
Lucy Dacus
Thanks.
[04:01]
Jake Shane
It's amazing.
[04:02]
Lucy Dacus
Thank you.
[04:03]
Jake Shane
How long has it been in the works for?
[04:04]
Lucy Dacus
I guess I started writing songs in 2022 and then recording. I recorded while we were touring as a boy Genius. And then. Thanks. Me too. Yeah. It's been, like, I guess, kind of a long time coming.
[04:20]
Jake Shane
They sent it to me. I was listening to it. I was like, I feel like this is a love album.
[04:25]
Lucy Dacus
You felt correct.
[04:26]
Jake Shane
Okay. I was like, I feel like your feelings are. I feel like this is about love, but I also feel like it's a bit about reminiscing, especially on, like, Bullseye with Hozier.
[04:37]
Lucy Dacus
What was that, like, my life leading to the song or him being on it?
[04:41]
Jake Shane
You know, I realized I didn't get into specifics with that question.
[04:44]
Lucy Dacus
Well, I'll tell you everything. Yeah, I actually. Yeah, I wrote it about. Basically when you get to the end of a relationship and you're like, everything's great about you. It's just not happening anymore. Like. And I thought it'd be great if two people shared that sentiment instead of one person being like. And bye. It's, like, more powerful if both people can be like, I appreciate everything we were able to give each other, and we're walking away. And Hozier is just the best.
[05:14]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[05:15]
Lucy Dacus
His voice is so good. His songwriting is so good. I feel that he's under. He's, like, selling out huge shows, and yet I find he's underrated.
[05:23]
Jake Shane
He's so underrated.
[05:24]
Lucy Dacus
He's kind of underrated.
[05:25]
Jake Shane
He's so underrated. There's this line on that song that I love where you talk about you're moving out and you're looking through old stuff, and you find your partner's old things, and you can't figure out if it's. If you should view them as, like, a gift or, like, something that you should get rid of.
[05:41]
Lucy Dacus
It hurts.
[05:42]
Jake Shane
Yeah. I've never had that feeling, but I am sure. Thank you.
[05:48]
Lucy Dacus
If it comes around, then, yes, you'll know.
[05:50]
Jake Shane
Did you guys record that song in studio together? Did you, like, send him an open.
[05:54]
Lucy Dacus
Verse and we did not. I wrote it, so I sang the whole thing myself.
[05:58]
Jake Shane
Oh, wow.
[05:59]
Lucy Dacus
He liked it. And then he basically just sang on top of mine and then added all these beautiful harmonies, and he was just in Ireland, you know, being busier. Yeah.
[06:09]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[06:10]
Lucy Dacus
Being far away. So.
[06:11]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[06:11]
Lucy Dacus
I wish we had done it in person. We were trying for that, and then it didn't work out.
[06:14]
Jake Shane
I'm sure you guys will perform it in person.
[06:16]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, I hope so. There's no plans right now, but there's, of course, a heart and intention towards that.
[06:22]
Jake Shane
Of course.
[06:23]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[06:23]
Jake Shane
Are you planning on touring the album?
[06:25]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[06:26]
Jake Shane
I'm so excited.
[06:27]
Lucy Dacus
I'm so excited, too, actually. It's like weird doing press and having little songs come out and people aren't hearing it. And it's all digital and the shows are actually the thing.
[06:39]
Jake Shane
Of course.
[06:39]
Lucy Dacus
Like, that's like the reason to live, right for me.
[06:43]
Jake Shane
Do you have, like, a favorite show you've ever performed?
[06:45]
Lucy Dacus
Boy Genius at Gunnersbury park in London. We had like, fireworks and I got to make out with everybody in Muna except Naomi, who declined kissing anyone so proper. Yeah, it. Yeah, it was so awesome. That was just like a dream. Like, you. Do you ever have moments where you're like, this is my, like, flash forward 15 years from childhood.
[07:13]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[07:14]
Lucy Dacus
Like, I'm a kid just being like, daydream.
[07:16]
Jake Shane
Right.
[07:17]
Lucy Dacus
And then you're like, I'm. I'm actually doing that.
[07:21]
Jake Shane
I feel like I have that feeling sometimes, but I try not to feel it because when I feel it, while it brings me such gratitude in the moment, it also brings me such sadness because I feel like it doesn't feel like you thought it would feel like what it would feel like. Do you know what I mean?
[07:37]
Lucy Dacus
I would say often, and then I hope for you some moments that are like, this is as good as I thought it would be.
[07:42]
Jake Shane
I think I just need to overcome. And like, I feel I have such bad anxiety. So, like, if I can push through that and like, feel it. But there's like, yeah, there's. There's moments like when I toured the. The show for the first time, I felt that a lot. When I would, like, come out on stage, I got my first standing ovation. So that's when I was like. That was like. That was. Yeah, that was my real I made it moment.
[08:06]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[08:06]
Jake Shane
What was your, like, I made it moment?
[08:09]
Lucy Dacus
What's interesting is I never wanted any of this, so I never, like, dreamed about it that much. That's like a weird thing to say. I want it now. I love it. But I was like, in school, furniture, photography and. And film, and then just working in Richmond at a photo lab and kind of just enjoying my life. My rent was $190. Like, I was skating. It was okay. Like, right? I. I was so present and I'm like, I had goals generally to, like, live a life I could be proud of.
[08:42]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[08:43]
Lucy Dacus
But wasn't working towards, like, and I'm gonna achieve this. Like, I had like, short term goals of, like, in three months, I want to have finished a music video to show my friends or like, just like, more personally oriented goals. And then this just kind of like, started to pay my bills and I was like, okay, I'll get on this ride and I'm still riding. So I guess your original question is, like, when did you feel like you made it? I don't even know what it is.
[09:16]
Jake Shane
Right.
[09:16]
Lucy Dacus
While I'm making it. Yeah. Which is kind of fun because that means it could change and I won't be disappointed. Hopefully it's a really good outlook. Yeah.
[09:26]
Jake Shane
You said you never like, wanted any of this, but then so were you just like making music kind of for yourself and like putting it out and did. Did something just click and work?
[09:36]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, kind of for myself. And then to participate in like my hometown's music scene. Like, my friends made music and I was just like, cool. That's what, what we do.
[09:45]
Jake Shane
And are you still close with all your friends from your hometown?
[09:48]
Lucy Dacus
I mean, not all, cuz like, things happen. And also I was just talking to my friend. Like, I don't like, really get to be the person that I want to be while I do music because I'm so disparate, which means I get to like, have a lot of cool relationships that all stay a little more shallow.
[10:05]
Jake Shane
What do you mean by that?
[10:06]
Lucy Dacus
I don't know. Like, I don't know how much you travel. Like, you just travel so much that like, you can connect with people deeply just if two people are willing.
[10:15]
Jake Shane
Right.
[10:15]
Lucy Dacus
But kind of like the community. Community oriented, like staying really in touch with what people are doing and what you can be doing for them and like kind of like passive time instead of active time.
[10:30]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[10:31]
Lucy Dacus
It's harder to come by when you're moving around so much. So I'm wondering if there'll be a part of life where I'm a lot more still.
[10:37]
Jake Shane
I think there definitely will be. And I feel like it's like I. Do you ever feel like in the parts where you're still, you like, yearn for the parts that are like you're moving and then when you're moving, you're like, wait, I want to be still.
[10:49]
Lucy Dacus
Never satisfied. Of course.
[10:50]
Jake Shane
Right?
[10:50]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[10:51]
Jake Shane
Actually, Phoebe has this lyric, and I know the ad where she says, I, like, romanticize a quiet life. There's no place like my room. And I was not to be so dramatic, but I would listen to that on tour all the time because I was like, I know all I want is my room. But then the second I get back to my room, you're like, what's next? What's next?
[11:08]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, it's good to romanticize your own life, I think.
[11:11]
Jake Shane
Do you romanticize your own life?
[11:13]
Lucy Dacus
I feel like every Piece of furniture I get in my house is like my new family member, and I'm like, I miss my bookcase.
[11:19]
Jake Shane
Right.
[11:20]
Lucy Dacus
I miss my coffee table, and I miss my record shelf. And I can just go. I can go missing easily. I do not have problems missing things. I'm missing everything all the time.
[11:32]
Jake Shane
When's your birthday?
[11:34]
Lucy Dacus
May 2nd.
[11:35]
Jake Shane
You Taurus?
[11:35]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. What are you?
[11:37]
Jake Shane
I'm a Scorpio, but I love Taurus.
[11:39]
Lucy Dacus
But that's. We're sisters.
[11:40]
Jake Shane
Yeah, we are sisters. My mom's a Taurus.
[11:42]
Lucy Dacus
My mom's a Taurus. Really? Yeah. When's your mom's birthday?
[11:46]
Jake Shane
May 8th.
[11:47]
Lucy Dacus
Okay.
[11:48]
Jake Shane
When's your mom's birthday?
[11:49]
Lucy Dacus
May 19th.
[11:50]
Jake Shane
Close enough.
[11:50]
Lucy Dacus
Shout out Sandy.
[11:51]
Jake Shane
Shout out, Helene.
[11:54]
Lucy Dacus
But, yeah, I. I love Scorpios. I mean, y' all really keep the world mysterious and gorgeous, so.
[12:01]
Jake Shane
It's funny you say that. I actually feel like I'm the least mysterious person on planet Earth. I think that's my Gemini. Are you, like, into astrology?
[12:08]
Lucy Dacus
I'm Gemini Moon. So I hear that.
[12:10]
Jake Shane
I'm Gemini Moon and Gemini Rising.
[12:11]
Lucy Dacus
Oh.
[12:12]
Jake Shane
So it's like, I.
[12:13]
Lucy Dacus
So you got to be like.
[12:14]
Jake Shane
Like, I'm so talkative.
[12:15]
Lucy Dacus
You need to see all sides of things. Yeah.
[12:17]
Jake Shane
But then there's moments where I'm like, my social battery is just shot, and I'm like, I need to be alone.
[12:21]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[12:22]
Jake Shane
You know what I mean?
[12:22]
Lucy Dacus
Get back in your shell.
[12:23]
Jake Shane
Okay. So you were in Richmond, Virginia. You were in school to be a photographer.
[12:28]
Lucy Dacus
I was in school. It was a vcu. Arts. Very good art school. And I was studying photo film, and I just didn't. They, like, took away my scholarship randomly, even. I was like. And then when I went. I think it was a hoax. Honestly. Conspiracy theory. They gave me, like, a really nice scholarship that made me choose to go there and then took it away and wouldn't schedule a meeting with me to talk about it. Gave me no reason. And then I. It was like, I think it's kind of a hoax.
[12:55]
Jake Shane
Like, the scholarship was a hoax.
[12:58]
Lucy Dacus
I think it basically, like, it seemed like the people were trained to not respond. Respond. And I was like, cool, I'm leaving. Like, I don't want to be in debt.
[13:07]
Jake Shane
Right.
[13:08]
Lucy Dacus
Please. Like, I don't got the money for this.
[13:10]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[13:12]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. And then got. Yeah. Photo job. And I know. So I used to know so much. Like, all these cameras I would know, and it's just, like, out of my brain. Sometimes it comes back. But do you.
[13:24]
Jake Shane
You still take photos and practice photography?
[13:27]
Lucy Dacus
I got back into taking, like, Film photos, which is really nice. And I was the guy at the party, like, taking photos of everyone and, like, doing the big upload on Facebook, like, tag yourself, you know, whatever. And that was nice because it, like, gave me something to do with my hands and a purpose in social space. But also it, like, makes moments fake in a way. Like, it was like, oh, I'm capturing the moment instead of, like, living it. And that got kind of annoying. But I'm finding a good groove now with my little tiny camera.
[14:01]
Jake Shane
Yeah. Do you. So people always used to say, or what I've always heard is, like, that people, photographers, love to be behind the camera. But then you started to be the one in front of the camera. So, like, what was that shift like?
[14:15]
Lucy Dacus
Awful. Not fun.
[14:18]
Jake Shane
Really?
[14:18]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. Oh, my God. I just saw your post University.
[14:21]
Jake Shane
Oh, you like it? It's all my fake diplomas.
[14:24]
Lucy Dacus
Doctor of Psychology. Being in front of the camera. Not as fun.
[14:30]
Jake Shane
Really?
[14:30]
Lucy Dacus
Really not as fun. But I don't know, it's just, like, part of the job. So you have to, like, figure out the best case scenario in each situation. I have had fun.
[14:41]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[14:42]
Lucy Dacus
Doing shoots. I mean, my thing is, like, as long as people are kind of. You can kind of get through whatever.
[14:49]
Jake Shane
Do you feel like with, like, boy genius, like, you kind of have. It's more fun because you have, like, your friends and the support system around you.
[14:55]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, for sure.
[14:56]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[14:57]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. And we were being so stupid.
[14:59]
Jake Shane
Right.
[14:59]
Lucy Dacus
And, like, I have the power to be stupid if I want in my life, but I think just, like, the music is so sincere that it would be weird if I was stupid all the time.
[15:11]
Jake Shane
I mean, all of your music is so sincere, but is there a song that's so personal that, like, you have trouble performing it ever?
[15:19]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, there's songs I have to take breaks from.
[15:22]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[15:22]
Lucy Dacus
Or even, like, live in a set. I'll, like, turn to the band and.
[15:25]
Jake Shane
Be like, really Skip.
[15:27]
Lucy Dacus
You know, there's a song called Thumbs that's kind of hard. That's about wanting to kill my friend's dad. There's a song Please Stay, about trying to convince my friend to live. Those are definitely some of the bigger ones. I wonder if there are any on this record. There's some love songs. And I could see if I was, like, fighting with my partner, I'd be like, not today. Or it would be a great reminder that I actually love them.
[15:58]
Jake Shane
Do you have, like, a favorite song on the record?
[16:01]
Lucy Dacus
I like Limerence, which is already out.
[16:03]
Jake Shane
I love Limerence.
[16:04]
Lucy Dacus
Thanks.
[16:05]
Jake Shane
What does Limerence mean?
[16:07]
Lucy Dacus
It Means being in love with the idea of somebody or, like, wanting their affection. Basically, like being obsessed with getting the love from someone.
[16:18]
Jake Shane
Oh, I'm about to listen to this song with a whole new meaning. I'm so excited to listen to this again right after this.
[16:23]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, it's like not. It's not about actual love. Limerance is like kind of like a. A category of romantic obsession, I think. Suppose I gotta go. I gotta go hit the dictionary again. But it. Yeah.
[16:37]
Jake Shane
Okay. So I'm very. Actually very excited to listen to this after. I love ankles.
[16:43]
Lucy Dacus
Thank you.
[16:43]
Jake Shane
I love ankles. Does your. When you. Is ankles about the partner you're with right now or is it. Did they love it?
[16:51]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[16:51]
Jake Shane
When you are like in the studio and you're making music like that and you're like, I know this is going to be the first single. Or do you not think about it like that? You kind of think about it more like a project and yeah.
[17:01]
Lucy Dacus
Everyone else tell you no idea. I mean, after it's over. I have opinions, but like, I'm just like, per song, what needs to happen? Or even like per line, what needs to happen to make it hit? Because the. The lyrics can't be like, secondary to anything. It's kind of my rule. Like, the lyrics have to be king at all moments.
[17:21]
Jake Shane
Okay. So lyrics over melody for you.
[17:24]
Lucy Dacus
Well, I write the lyrics in the melody at the same time.
[17:26]
Jake Shane
Okay.
[17:27]
Lucy Dacus
But then when it comes to any production, it's gotta, like, keep attention on the meaning. Sometimes we'll do very cool stuff and I'm like, it's too distracting. We. You lose the plot, basically. And we can't do that extremely cool thing.
[17:44]
Jake Shane
Some, but sometimes it really makes the song and you do this cool thing in your music. You do it with the last song on the record. And you also do it in Night Shift where the complete vibe of the song just changes and it becomes this, like, kind of arena rocky production. And I just think it's super cool.
[18:01]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. I was worried on the last song that might be my favorite one. And it is. It is so different from Night Shift, but it does end in this, like, kind of payoff. I was like, oh, I wonder if people think like, I just only do that. No, but I think you've earned it by the end of the record. But yeah, that one is very special to me.
[18:22]
Jake Shane
Night Shift, I was with. What? You remember when I was telling you I was like, I was walking around London and I was listening to your music all day. It was. Night Shift was on repeat. What is Night Shift About. Because normally I'm like, I can really understand a song, but sometimes. Sometimes it's so above my pay grade intellectually that I'm like, I don't get this. What is Night Shift about?
[18:42]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, my God. I'm like. I feel like it's pretty contrary. Like, Night Shift is about. Let me remember the song, like, basically being. Being out of a relationship with somebody that was cheating on you and then trying to see other people and it's. It doesn't feel good. You see them again because they want to, like, be forgiven and ultimately, like, just about getting past it and being like, I am not going to feel as bad as I do right now eventually.
[19:17]
Jake Shane
Wow. Okay.
[19:18]
Lucy Dacus
And I'll have new people that I'm in love with. And. Yeah.
[19:24]
Jake Shane
Wow. It's really beautiful. I really love that song. Do when you. Were you anticipating the success of Night Shift when you put it out or not at all?
[19:32]
Lucy Dacus
I can't. You can't anticipate anything. And it's also been, like, a slow burn. I mean, people always, like, liked it, but I feel like it kind of, like, reaches new audiences and, like, making the music video for it five years after it came out was a choice. So much fun. And, yeah, I love playing that when it shows still. And, like, some songs feel old to me, and that one just feels like it's still relevant.
[20:01]
Jake Shane
Right, Right. I love. I also love your song Hot and Heavy.
[20:05]
Lucy Dacus
Thanks.
[20:05]
Jake Shane
I love it. My. I like. I love when you can just like, really dive into someone's discography and, like, really find so many new. And I was in the car with my best friend, Will. I was like, turn it up. What is this? He's like, hot and heavy.
[20:17]
Lucy Dacus
Amazing.
[20:18]
Jake Shane
Oh, it's amazing.
[20:19]
Lucy Dacus
I love to hear it. I always forget, like, obviously people are having their own special little interactions, but I'm not there.
[20:27]
Jake Shane
Right?
[20:28]
Lucy Dacus
So I'm like, that doesn't exist.
[20:30]
Jake Shane
Is that one of your favorite parts, though, about putting it now is, like, knowing that everyone is going to have their own experience with the song.
[20:36]
Lucy Dacus
It is. It is sweet. You gotta, like, hope for the best, that it'll reach the people that it does. That's the thing is, like, people that aren't into it will skip it, and the people who are into it will let it into their life. And that's. That's just how it is.
[20:50]
Jake Shane
Right.
[20:51]
Lucy Dacus
It's the shows, though, that really matter to me. Like, all the compliments and, like, accolades are, like, I can see through them and, like, discredit them. Like, anyone being, like, I love your record. I'm like, you have to say that because I'm in front of you.
[21:04]
Jake Shane
Right.
[21:05]
Lucy Dacus
But knowing lyrics and like, you can't fake it. You have to have spent time learning the songs.
[21:12]
Jake Shane
100 so when you see these people like screaming the lyrics back or like, like, it's so rewarding.
[21:17]
Lucy Dacus
Thank you for the brain space.
[21:18]
Jake Shane
Right, Right. Oh, that's so awesome. Do you find Tauren easy or because you love the show so much but is you. We were talking about traveling and how that's hard. Do you find that aspect difficult?
[21:35]
Lucy Dacus
It can be hard sometimes. I would say it's usually fun just because I love my band. And then there are days where you have like full breakdown and you have to like weep in a corner of a green room and put a pillow over your face and just let it happen. But that kind of happens. I don't know about you, but that just happens whether you're on tour.
[21:58]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[22:00]
Lucy Dacus
You just have to like scream into the avoid and think that life sucks and then you remember life is awesome. And that's just. That's just the. The way that it is.
[22:10]
Jake Shane
Right. I. That actually happened to me yesterday. I had like a full episode for like 20. Well, I don't cry because I'm on meds that don't let me cry. Oh, yeah, no, it's. It's fine. I've actually like. I like think I'm gonna go down on them just because I think. I don't know, I want to be. I've. It's cooling of crying.
[22:27]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. But this isn't about avoiding crying. I do think some people think it is. They imagine just like, just avoiding fear of emotionality.
[22:36]
Jake Shane
Right.
[22:36]
Lucy Dacus
And. Yeah. But I hope, I hope you do get to cry soon.
[22:40]
Jake Shane
Me too. Me too. The last time I cried was. Oh my God. Everyone listening is like, we've heard this story a million times. September 2019, outside of Macaroni Republic in downtown LA.
[22:53]
Lucy Dacus
Okay, well, I'm sure that that was necessary at the time.
[23:00]
Jake Shane
It was. And I weirdly called my dad and he was like, hello. Like, what do you do?
[23:06]
Lucy Dacus
I was about to say, do you like him?
[23:07]
Jake Shane
I love my dad. But like, he was just like, what the are you calling me? I was so drunk.
[23:12]
Lucy Dacus
Okay. Yeah.
[23:13]
Jake Shane
And I was like, oh my God, I gotta stop. I gotta stop. Yeah, it's.
[23:17]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, it'll get you.
[23:18]
Jake Shane
It'll get you. Alcohol just always brings out the emotions in me.
[23:22]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, it always brings out the throw up in me.
[23:25]
Jake Shane
Yeah. We were talking about that before in college when I used to take shots. Okay. So it's weird. It's happened to me three times in my life. I'll take a shot and just immediately throw up right after. Yeah. And, yeah, it's. It's not enjoyable, but that's only happened three times. But you were telling me it happened to you after a glass of wine.
[23:45]
Lucy Dacus
Just one glass of wine. Recently. I just, like, don't drink that much. If I ever do, it's like an Amara. Anybody had a Mara Amara's Nice.
[23:53]
Jake Shane
Sounds classy.
[23:53]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. So, like, every couple months, I'll have an Amara, but I'm no. I'm no party girl. Um, at least in that way.
[24:01]
Jake Shane
Right.
[24:01]
Lucy Dacus
And I have had. I think 2023 was probably the most I ever drank in a transitional time.
[24:09]
Jake Shane
Well, I just feel like 2023 was also, like, you put out the boy genius record and the Grammys, and everything was happening all at once.
[24:18]
Lucy Dacus
Life was changing.
[24:19]
Jake Shane
Life was changing.
[24:20]
Lucy Dacus
And there are nights. It's just really scary. I. I'm scared of, like, losing my memory. And the nights that I've been like, I don't remember what happened. Feel like little, tiny death, you know?
[24:33]
Jake Shane
Yeah. I also hate having. When people have to tell me what happened.
[24:38]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, my God.
[24:38]
Jake Shane
It's just. That was what my nightmare last night was about.
[24:41]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, no.
[24:42]
Jake Shane
And it was the weirdest nightmare ever. I was on a reality show, and my tour manager, Matt, told them, put the. Put. Like, I was super drunk at the club, and Matt said, put cameras up. Like, put, like, record him and how evil. And I woke up, and we got in the. I got in the biggest sight with him in my dream. I'm the type of person, I can't separate dreams from reality.
[25:06]
Lucy Dacus
Like, I mad right now.
[25:08]
Jake Shane
I woke up a little pissed. Yeah, I woke up.
[25:10]
Lucy Dacus
I've had that before. I have dreams that people are mad at me, and I'm still a little like. Like, I had a dream that one of my band members basically was like, all of us actually hate you, and you're, like, so bad at this, and the music sucks, and, like, everyone's afraid to say it because everybody. You're paying people to be here, and, like, you pay everyone really well. So, like, nobody can be honest with you. And, like, it's just this hope, like, fear. Just fear. And then I. The next day, luckily, I told him about it, and he, like, will still apologize for it. Oh, how sweet is that? He didn't even do it. But he's like, I'm so sorry that your brain did that. And I Don't think those things.
[25:49]
Jake Shane
And I love you. Matt could never. Matt would be like. Yeah. Camera's up. Oh, my gosh. So you love your band?
[25:59]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, I do.
[25:59]
Jake Shane
So it's really fun to tour with them.
[26:01]
Lucy Dacus
It's so much fun. I've missed them. Even through Boy Genius, I've missed them. And we've gotten. We live all over the country. One of us lives in Ireland. New band member Phoenix lives in Manchester. Ooh, and ooh.
[26:14]
Jake Shane
I really want to go to Manchester.
[26:16]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, she's so great. And she's Greek, so I. She's a British accent to me, but she's a Greek accent to my British friends.
[26:22]
Jake Shane
Interested?
[26:23]
Lucy Dacus
I just. I don't have the discerning ear.
[26:25]
Jake Shane
Does she have a Manchester accent?
[26:27]
Lucy Dacus
I don't actually know that either.
[26:29]
Jake Shane
Manchester accents.
[26:30]
Lucy Dacus
Like, a new one, please.
[26:33]
Jake Shane
It's like. It's like child. Like. Like, you know, like. Like, chop check. Like, that's like. That's like a Manchester accent.
[26:42]
Lucy Dacus
You say chav check.
[26:44]
Jake Shane
You've never. Are you on TikTok?
[26:46]
Lucy Dacus
No.
[26:46]
Jake Shane
Okay. So, I mean, I have one, but.
[26:48]
Lucy Dacus
I. I don't scroll on it, to be frank.
[26:51]
Jake Shane
Back in the day, there was, like, this, like, chop check. And it was like, a Manchester girl trend. And there was a song that was like, have a lot of faith in me, love. And, like, they would do all their makeup.
[27:01]
Lucy Dacus
Like, what you just did.
[27:02]
Jake Shane
Yeah. It's all I need. Yeah. Do you remember that? Yeah. It was awesome.
[27:07]
Lucy Dacus
Most of my friends in Manchester are Dolls, that dj. And I want to go, like, dance. I want to go to the club and dance with my Dolls in Manchester.
[27:19]
Jake Shane
That sounds amazing.
[27:21]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[27:22]
Jake Shane
To me also, like, club culture and nightlife culture is so much better in London, I feel like. Because I feel like here, everyone's iPhone's up.
[27:33]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[27:33]
Jake Shane
And, like, I'm very. And I feel like the culture there is more, like, less judgy and more like everybody's in their own body feeling the music. And I've actually noticed that just as a viewer and watching concerts, like, online. Like, I remember there was this one concert, and I think it was Summer Walker, and I think she was performing in Hyde Park. I forget what it was, but the crowd was just screaming the lyrics back. I was like, oh, my God, you don't hear that here.
[28:06]
Lucy Dacus
Because everyone's like.
[28:08]
Jake Shane
Like, I remember I was at a Phoebe show in 2022, and she did Motion Sickness. And I was not crying because, as we know. But I was like. I was. I was crying. I was, like, moving in my emotion of Crying, like, I just felt so overwhelmed by the.
[28:23]
Lucy Dacus
You were just going, like.
[28:25]
Jake Shane
I was like, with no tears, essentially, and. But I was so moved by it. And then I remember looking around and everyone was like. I was like, oh, I hate it here.
[28:34]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, yeah, that's sad. I'm always heartened by people who are feeling things, obviously.
[28:40]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[28:41]
Lucy Dacus
Like. Yes. That is how it is.
[28:43]
Jake Shane
That is how it is.
[28:44]
Lucy Dacus
Stop pretending.
[28:45]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[28:46]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[28:46]
Jake Shane
Do you have. Sorry, this is like a 180. But do you have a favorite. A favorite lyric on the album or any favorite lyrics?
[28:54]
Lucy Dacus
I like on Forever Is a Feeling, the title track, there's a bunch of lyrics that I really like, which actually was a song that at the. Towards the end of recording, I was like, I have all these bits and bobs that never got made into full songs. And I just kind of stitched them together. So it's a lot of my darlings in one.
[29:14]
Jake Shane
Oh, that's awesome thing.
[29:17]
Lucy Dacus
But I like the bridge of that song a lot. It's like. I'm not gonna say all of the lyrics, but there's. I will say a lyric from Lost Time, like the last song, which kind of sums up the whole record, which is like, nothing lasts forever but let's see how far we get. So when it comes my turn to lose you I'll have made the most of it but you can't cry, so.
[29:38]
Jake Shane
No, I can't. But I'll feel it. Okay. That's really beautiful.
[29:42]
Lucy Dacus
Thanks. Yeah, that's just how I feel. Like, just make the most of the connection that you have and like, sayonara. If it stops.
[29:53]
Jake Shane
Do you. Did you. Was that something you, like, learned over time? Like living in the moment and appreciating everything around you? Or has that always kind of been your mindset?
[30:04]
Lucy Dacus
I definitely hold on to it more now. I just think as you get older, temporality is so obvious and when you're young, it is harder to actually.
[30:14]
Jake Shane
Right.
[30:14]
Lucy Dacus
Learn. And I like, as a kid, had people close to me die. And I know a lot of people in their straight up 30s that have never experienced grief. Like, what? Like, which is like, kind of cool because I'm like, you're gonna get around to it for sure.
[30:31]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[30:31]
Lucy Dacus
But I think having a little bit early on in life just like, has made me super aware of that always impending state of being.
[30:40]
Jake Shane
Right.
[30:41]
Lucy Dacus
And so the flip side of grief is gratitude. Right. Like, I'm very grateful for what I have because I know it will be gone either from straight up death or just choice. Like, things will change.
[30:59]
Jake Shane
Yeah. And have you. Is that. Did that grief kind of lead you into writing, or were you always a writer and a creative?
[31:08]
Lucy Dacus
I feel like I've always written and not usually about grief, though. I remember when I was really young, there's a really sweet home video of, like, I held a concert for my family after my grandpa died. And I played guitar and I was like, I wrote this song for. For Grandpa and I without Fred. It, like, holding any of the strings down, like, just open strings. I went for, like, minutes, like, the exact same, like, plucking the six strings in a particular order. And all the adults are like, thank you, Lucy. Like, that's so sweet. Like, and wanting it to be over. Um, so I. Maybe. Yeah, I guess I have had, like, a connection to, like, music is kind of, like, acknowledging things that matter.
[32:01]
Jake Shane
Right.
[32:02]
Lucy Dacus
Whether that's celebration or grief or whatever.
[32:06]
Jake Shane
Whatever.
[32:07]
Lucy Dacus
Whatever. Is that Manchester?
[32:08]
Jake Shane
Yeah, it is Manchester. Whatever.
[32:11]
Lucy Dacus
Whatever. Yeah.
[32:13]
Jake Shane
Do you remember, like, the first song you ever wrote?
[32:15]
Lucy Dacus
I have always, like, written little bits and bobs and there are older songs in this, but the first song I ever wrote that I, like, recorded on GarageBand and, like, showed to friends is called Purple Breeze. And it's like, Purple breeze, take me away Like, I have no reasons to stay I'm willing to leave today like.
[32:37]
Jake Shane
It'S actually really moving.
[32:40]
Lucy Dacus
We're gonna overcome these meds here. It's just very juvenile and sweet, and you gotta start somewhere.
[32:49]
Jake Shane
You do have to start somewhere. Forever Is a Feeling was. So you said that was one of the last tracks you wrote for the album. Because it was everything kind of put together, kind of like when you have, like, left, like, leftovers in a fridge, kind of making what you have. But so did you come up with the name for the album after that song?
[33:07]
Lucy Dacus
One of the bits was Forever is A Feeling.
[33:10]
Jake Shane
Oh, okay.
[33:11]
Lucy Dacus
Just. I had that written in a note. Like, that's just something, I think. And so it went into the song and then it became the title.
[33:21]
Jake Shane
Are you nervous to put the album out or excited or just kind of.
[33:24]
Lucy Dacus
Like, I'm so nervous because, like, I. I really put so much of myself into it, and you can't control how people react. And so, yeah, I'm really nervous. I just hope to the people that. I just have to think about the people that might get something from it and think that that is important for some reason.
[33:50]
Jake Shane
Do you have a song that you're most nervous about? And on the flip side, do you have a song that you're most excited for people to hear?
[33:56]
Lucy Dacus
I'm A little nervous about Big Deal, but I'm also very excited. That's like, the first song that I sing on.
[34:02]
Jake Shane
She loves Big Deal.
[34:04]
Lucy Dacus
That's the thing is, I'm like, why did we not make that a single? I might talk. We will put it out next week or something.
[34:09]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[34:09]
Lucy Dacus
Like, I kind of feel like, why? Like, that is one of the. The ones that I like the most. But then it's the first song, so I'm like, people are gonna have to hear it anyways. But it is. Thank you for liking it. But, you know, there's some, you know, for those paying attention, you know, super fit. I put some just personal details in.
[34:32]
Jake Shane
There that they'll catch on.
[34:34]
Lucy Dacus
Yes. And then what I'm really excited about, I mean, it could just be the same answer. And then. Yeah. The title track is. Is kind of interesting. It's, like, a little bit weird. It's like, not really one genre. A lot of different things happen. Maybe it's a little more poppy than I usually go for.
[34:53]
Jake Shane
I love it.
[34:53]
Lucy Dacus
Thanks.
[34:54]
Jake Shane
Maybe that's why.
[34:55]
Lucy Dacus
Wait, do you have a favorite?
[34:56]
Jake Shane
I love Forever is a Feeling.
[34:58]
Lucy Dacus
Cool.
[34:58]
Jake Shane
And I love Ankles.
[35:00]
Lucy Dacus
Ankles.
[35:01]
Jake Shane
And I love the. I love the closing track, Last Time. Yeah, I love Last Time. And I. Actually, my favorite is Bullseye.
[35:07]
Lucy Dacus
That's.
[35:08]
Jake Shane
Bullseye is my favorite. Just because I love. You and Hosier, like, trade verses so beautifully. And then when you come together on that second chorus together, like, your voices blend so beautifully. And as I was telling you, I love that lyric about, like, clearing out your house and moving. And I think a lot of the album is so present. Ankles is so present. I. Tell me if I'm wrong. I feel like forever. The feeling is so present. It's all like. It's a love record. But I. Oh, I thought it was really beautiful that with love comes reminiscing and nostalgia. And I thought that it was just, like, really explained beautifully on Bullseye. And I just thought your voices sounded so good together.
[35:44]
Lucy Dacus
That's so sweet.
[35:45]
Jake Shane
It's true.
[35:46]
Lucy Dacus
Very heartening.
[35:47]
Jake Shane
It's true. I really, really loved Bullseye. And. Yeah, I just. I don't know. I. I love. I love a duet.
[35:55]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. There. There's not that many. There's features.
[35:59]
Jake Shane
Right. But, like, that's a true.
[36:01]
Lucy Dacus
Fully a duet.
[36:02]
Jake Shane
That's a true duet.
[36:03]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, it's like old school.
[36:03]
Jake Shane
Yeah. It's kind of like. Well, when you write with Boy Genius, like, do you guys all write together or do you. Do you come with a song? One day someone else comes with a song. One day. How does that.
[36:16]
Lucy Dacus
Some songs we write totally separately and then just, like, harmonize on or hand, like, you take this verse or whatever. Other songs someone will bring a bit, and then we'll all work on it. Julian's more often the one that will be like, I need to go away for a couple hours and we'll come back with something. Whereas I'm like, well, it could be this or this or this or this or this. And Phoebe will kind of like, Rolodex through them and be like, this one's the closest. Give me more options.
[36:39]
Jake Shane
Right?
[36:40]
Lucy Dacus
And I'll be like, this or this or this. But there's not, like, one way that it happens. And, yeah, for me, that's more like working on assignment than my music, which I don't have, like, any method other than, like, do it when it's happening.
[36:57]
Jake Shane
Right.
[36:57]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[36:59]
Jake Shane
Do you. How did Boy Genius come together?
[37:03]
Lucy Dacus
Phoebe opened for Julian. I opened for Julian on the same tour. She struck up friendships as both of us and talked us up to each other. And then Phoebe and I met and. And then we all wanted to hang out. They had a tour that they were gonna go on that they, like, wanted help selling tickets, which is so funny now to think about. And so they, like, had me open, and then we were like, well, let's do a song together for this tour we're gonna do. And then it was six songs in a band, and that was 2018, and it just, like, was a way bigger thing than we thought it would be. And then we went off to do our own things. We're like, we'll probably get back together. And then Covet happened. And. Yeah, it just took, like, years and years to actually get back to it.
[37:53]
Jake Shane
Right. Do you have a favorite song off.
[37:54]
Lucy Dacus
That album of my own? I really like True Blue. And we're in love. We're in love. I feel really good about of. I love Anti curse. I love Letter to an Old Poet. Everybody really brought, like, such good stuff. Emily, I'm sorry. Is such a good.
[38:13]
Jake Shane
I love Emily, I'm sorry. Yeah, I love Cool about it too.
[38:17]
Lucy Dacus
Cool about it's good too about it.
[38:18]
Jake Shane
So good. I just love that lyric. Once I took your medication to know what it's like and now I have to pretend like I can't read your mind. I love that lyric.
[38:26]
Lucy Dacus
That.
[38:28]
Jake Shane
Yeah. Like, damn.
[38:29]
Lucy Dacus
That's. That's the thing about when, like, when Phoebe brings stuff, I'm like, you done it again? Yeah. It's like. Yeah. I'm often, like, blown over by the she has to say.
[38:41]
Jake Shane
Yeah. Do you have anything that you are therapist about?
[38:46]
Lucy Dacus
Let me think of a good one.
[38:47]
Jake Shane
Like, for me today. My bladder is really small.
[38:50]
Lucy Dacus
Do you need to pee a little? She should go pause. This is your show. Come on.
[38:56]
Jake Shane
That was a good segue. Yeah, it really has to be. Is that okay?
[39:00]
Lucy Dacus
Yes.
[39:01]
Jake Shane
Okay. I'll be right back. You ruminate on that therapist.
[39:04]
Lucy Dacus
Okay. Yeah. I'm actually going to check the note on my phone.
[39:06]
Jake Shane
Okay. This episode of Therapists is brought to you by booking.combooking. yeah. Sorry. Nolan told me I have to keep the mic away when I do that. Now that I'm not on tour, I don't need to book hotels or anything right now. However, I'm going to New York in a few weeks, and you bet your ass I'll be using booking.com to book me a stay. Because booking.com makes it so easy and so quick to book your perfect stay. Okay. You put in all the things you need. So I want a gym if I want a terrace if I need walkability, which we know I need because I don't drive. Whatever I need for wherever I'm staying, you put it in and they show you the list of hotels or rentals that have it and you book it and it's easy. You could also book a car on it. They offer everything so you can, like, really fill out your vacation on it and make it easy and accept easy and accessible. Like, booking.com is really just about, like, making everything, like, easier for you. Like, it's just so much easier. Like, when we were on tour, I remember I would say, like, we would show up to these cities and we wouldn't have a place booked and then we'd have, like, instead of scrambling, we would just put it in and find somewhere and click it and book it on booking.com. and I'm not even just saying that. We really did do that and it was the easiest thing ever. It took away so much anxiety for me. I get the worst travel anxiety. But, like, knowing that, like, booking.com will help me find a place to stay, just like they will always have a place to stay for me that meets all of my criteria and all of my needs. Like, it takes such a weight off of me when I'm traveling or where I'm go when I'm going somewhere. Um, it really is just the easiest and most efficient way to book travel, in my opinion. So find exactly what you're booking for on booking.combooking. yeah. Also special thanks to Alo Moves for sponsoring tonight's episode. As you guys know, I love the Alo Gym and when I'm on tour, I obviously can't go, but I used Alo Moves because they have like my favorite instructors. Like they have Laura who teaches me Pilates and I was able to go to the gym wherever I was and do the class. And I know it didn't feel like I was. It felt as close to the Aloe Gym as I could possibly get without actually being there. And you know, you can choose from like beginner to intermediate to like a 5 minute class to a 20 minute class. Like they have all the. They have a million and one options for whatever you need. And like, it really just like is like the Alo gym on the go. Honestly, I know that like I look like an idiot sometimes when I work out, but if you want to look like an idiot with me, you can download Alo Moves and have the same instructors I have and do the same things I'm doing and we can look like idiots together. But really Allo Moves was my like lifesaver on tour. I just have so much trouble working out like within with me in my own head. So Alo Moves makes it feel like I'm with a trainer that I'm comfortable, that I'm comfortable with or it just makes it gives me a third party of someone telling me what to do. So I feel like there's a start time and an end time, which there is. And like they're like there's a certain amount to complete as opposed to just like leaving it open ended. Oh, also, and this was very important for me on tour. They also have an Art of Sleep series. This completely transformed my sleep schedule like entirely. Sleep is like equally as important as a workout. So even if you're not looking for a workout, Alo Moves has something for you. The Art of Sleep series seriously changed my entire sleeping. It's so hard for me to sleep on tour and this really saved me. This was like, this was really, really helpful. Reset your personal wellness routine with Alo moves. Go to alomoves.com now and use code therapists for an exclusive 30 day free trial and 20% off an annual membership. That's alomoves.com code therapists aloves.com code therapists thanks Alamos for sponsoring tonight's episode. Love you guys. Are you. Were you a little monster? Are you a little monster?
[42:43]
Lucy Dacus
I'm getting there now. I mean I've always loved and I remember, so basically, yes. But I feel like people are more like, they know everything. Whereas everything I do know delights me, but I don't know everything. Got it in the music videos are the best ones.
[42:59]
Jake Shane
They're the best ones. They're the best.
[43:01]
Lucy Dacus
She is the one doing it.
[43:02]
Jake Shane
She is.
[43:03]
Lucy Dacus
And some of them. Yeah. Anyways, the first time I saw Lady. I've been asking people, do you remember the first time you saw Lady Gaga? And the first time I saw it, she was a guest star on Just Dance the T or Dancing with the Stars. She was so it was like when Just Dance came out, it was promo for the song Just Dance.
[43:21]
Jake Shane
Huh.
[43:22]
Lucy Dacus
And it was just on my TV suddenly with my parents, like, in our house. And I forget. I was like, you know, a single dig Age, right? And my mom was like, what is this? This is terrible. I don't even. I can't even tell what she looks like. I like, what is this voice I get? What are the words? It's. Turn it off. Like, just terrible. And I'm just sitting there, like, eating it up, like, seeing for the first time, basically, which I feel like a lot of people I know have similar. It's so fun. Do you remember when you first saw Lady Gaga?
[43:52]
Jake Shane
Okay, so I. It was. It was just dance. I don't remember the first time I ever saw her, but I remember being in my mom's bedroom and I was playing the radio and Just Dance was on. And I remember. All I remember is this feeling of, like, I want to hear that song again and again and again and again and again and again for the rest of my life. And then I didn't know. And I remember trying. I think I tried calling in, being like, please play Just Dance by Lady Gaga. I think I was, like, 8. And then I remember the first time, though, I saw Poker Face. It was very recent. It was very. It was shortly after that, I was in my neighbor's, like, addict area, and she was like, lady Gaga has a new music video. It's called Poker Face. And I just remember seeing that and being like. I just remember being like, okay, there's before and after now.
[44:42]
Lucy Dacus
Yes.
[44:43]
Jake Shane
And then that's how I felt with Lady Gaga. And I was the. I still am the biggest little monster. I love her and I just. But my parents never let me see her live when I was a kid because it was so. But she did.
[44:53]
Lucy Dacus
So what?
[44:54]
Jake Shane
It was so, like, on the nose and graphic and like. Well, I get what they meant. But then I remember going to my friend's house and watching the Fame Monster on hbo because she did, like, A concert special. And I remember being like, okay, like, I wouldn't want to sit here as a 10 year old and watch this with my mom.
[45:09]
Lucy Dacus
No. Yeah. You got to find it on your own time.
[45:11]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[45:11]
Lucy Dacus
Have that moment.
[45:12]
Jake Shane
But I just remember being, like, loving her. And I love that album. That's one of my favorite albums of all time. The Fame Monster. I love every song on that album. Do you have a favorite album of all time?
[45:24]
Lucy Dacus
Of all time ever? I guess I should just say no because so many just came to mind.
[45:30]
Jake Shane
Well, what came.
[45:31]
Lucy Dacus
And also, like, most listened to is maybe not favorite. Though my most listened to record is probably I Need to Start a Garden by Haley Hendricks.
[45:40]
Jake Shane
Okay.
[45:41]
Lucy Dacus
Who's a friend and a sweetheart. And I listen to it on planes, like, every plane ride. And I fly, like, too much because some tours, like, you have to fly in between every freaking date. And so I have listened to that so much. And she's an unsung hero, I think. Or some people are singing, but more people should be singing. Yeah, she's a hero. She's like a folk icon to me.
[46:07]
Jake Shane
I'm excited.
[46:08]
Lucy Dacus
Songwriting.
[46:08]
Jake Shane
Never heard it. I'm excited.
[46:10]
Lucy Dacus
Just one of one of the most beautiful voices.
[46:12]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[46:13]
Lucy Dacus
Sweet people.
[46:13]
Jake Shane
I'm excited. I'm trying to think of, like, other albums that I'm like, front to fucking back. Like, this is my shit.
[46:20]
Lucy Dacus
This is like a lame answer. But there's a Nina Simone compilation album. Like, compilation feels like a cop out. But there's this. It's like her love songs that I listen to, like, all the time. All of the time.
[46:34]
Jake Shane
She's amazing.
[46:35]
Lucy Dacus
Bobby Sifra, the singer in the song, is, I think, one of the best records of all time.
[46:39]
Jake Shane
Sorry, who?
[46:40]
Lucy Dacus
Laby Sifra. He was. He's still alive, but his career was mostly in the 70s and check my work on this, too. But I think he's like a black gay man and was writing songs about women because the label that he was on wanted that. And they were like, don't write songs about men. And he was like, this is killing me inside.
[47:02]
Jake Shane
Right.
[47:02]
Lucy Dacus
And I think he got dropped, but he started writing about the men that he loves. And the way he writes about love is so, like, profound and simple and, like, his voice is so just clear and, like, of nature. I don't know.
[47:18]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[47:19]
Lucy Dacus
And like, like, I read you were.
[47:20]
Jake Shane
Meant to do this.
[47:21]
Lucy Dacus
Yes. Yeah, I read, like, a very sad article about how he and his longtime partner, they both started seeing another person for many years, which is. No, really good. They were all in love.
[47:34]
Jake Shane
Okay.
[47:35]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. Which. Good. I love hearing stories like that. And both of them passed in a short amount of time. So now he. He's like he said in the article, the rest of my life is grief.
[47:46]
Jake Shane
Oh, God.
[47:47]
Lucy Dacus
And I think of that rings in my head so much. But also it's clear that he has loved so much. It's weird to talk about someone I don't know. I guess that's what. Like this. This is like me. Like, that's what you do in culture. But I. I've see him so much as a. A person that has just gone through a lot, but also seems to me like a great lover.
[48:11]
Jake Shane
Yeah. I'm excited to listen to everything you.
[48:13]
Lucy Dacus
Just told me about. So good.
[48:15]
Jake Shane
I'm excited.
[48:15]
Lucy Dacus
I'm trying to think if there's something like, per your taste that you just revealed. If there's something like. You have to listen to this.
[48:21]
Jake Shane
Please. I would love it.
[48:23]
Lucy Dacus
I don't know if you'd like Jenny Hval. Do you know Jenny Hivel?
[48:26]
Jake Shane
I know the name.
[48:27]
Lucy Dacus
She's like, I think Norwegian or Swedish. Sorry. I love Sweet Stars, but it's, like, very thick. Do you know Mitsky?
[48:35]
Jake Shane
I do know Mitsky.
[48:36]
Lucy Dacus
Mitsky is the best. Love her. Love her. And one of her favorite artists is Jenny Hval, and she's very, like, thinky, and it's like electronic and it's weird.
[48:47]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[48:48]
Lucy Dacus
And like, some of the songs are like experimental sound pieces, and then other ones are absolute bops.
[48:55]
Jake Shane
So I love that.
[48:56]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. I. I'll just listen to an album through and be like, okay, I'm getting a few bops. I'm getting a few think pieces.
[49:02]
Jake Shane
Right.
[49:03]
Lucy Dacus
Enjoying.
[49:04]
Jake Shane
Yes. I love. I love finding an album that. Because I have such a short attention span that I can listen to through and through. I think one of those for me is Calico by Ryan Beatty.
[49:14]
Lucy Dacus
A gorgeous voice.
[49:15]
Jake Shane
Like, so gorgeous.
[49:19]
Lucy Dacus
Or not.
[49:19]
Jake Shane
Or maybe. Yes.
[49:26]
Lucy Dacus
God. It went away.
[49:27]
Jake Shane
It went away. But I love Calico by Ryan Beatty.
[49:30]
Lucy Dacus
Good. Yeah. Yeah. Really beautiful voice.
[49:34]
Jake Shane
I just love every. I love, like, gay love songs. So, like, I love Frank Ocean. I love Ryan Beatty.
[49:43]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, yeah. Blonde. We're talking about best records. What?
[49:46]
Jake Shane
How are we not talking about Blonde is the. I remember listening to that. I think it was my scene or my junior year in high school, and I was in, like, this area. I was in the north fork of Long island, and it was. There was, like, a lot. It was, like, very calm. Like, it was like bays and, like, a lot of trees, a lot of forests. And I remember being like this is where I've. I'm supposed to be listening to this album.
[50:08]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. I love when things line up like that.
[50:11]
Jake Shane
You know what I mean?
[50:11]
Lucy Dacus
Yes.
[50:12]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[50:12]
Lucy Dacus
I do kind of think the way we listen to music is different now. It's so like mood oriented, you know, because you can listen to anything at any time. So you're like, here's my scenario, so I'll match it with music.
[50:24]
Jake Shane
Oh, I never even thought about it.
[50:25]
Lucy Dacus
Which. Because you can now.
[50:27]
Jake Shane
Yes.
[50:27]
Lucy Dacus
I remember calling into like the Disney.
[50:30]
Jake Shane
Radio Disney.
[50:31]
Lucy Dacus
Radio Disney, absolutely. What did you call in? Do you remember?
[50:36]
Jake Shane
I think I wanted to hear the new Cody Simpson song. And. But I remember because I didn't have an ipod at the time and I.
[50:44]
Lucy Dacus
Didn'T have a computer or the ipod shuffle.
[50:46]
Jake Shane
Or an ipod shuffle. I had nothing. So the only way I could hear just dance was if I begged the radio to play. And again and again and again.
[50:53]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, yeah. No, I, I remember calling in to hear Ashley Tisdale. He said, she said on Disney Channel, Radio Disney, like a lot.
[51:03]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[51:04]
Lucy Dacus
So I was like, I don't know, like sassy or like the Cheetah Girl soundtrack.
[51:07]
Jake Shane
Oh, that soundtrack. Talk about underrated.
[51:10]
Lucy Dacus
I should re watch that movie. I bet that the fits are so fire.
[51:12]
Jake Shane
They are.
[51:13]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[51:14]
Jake Shane
One and two are the best ever. The song on two, the dude. My. I prefer the soundtrack actually. You know what? The soundtrack is so different on one and two. I love on one. Remember Cinderella. I don't want to be like cinder.
[51:28]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, yes.
[51:28]
Jake Shane
Love that one. And then I also love why wait on.
[51:33]
Lucy Dacus
You're so much deeper than. No, I, I. If you played it, I'd be like, cool, cool. I'd be like knowing. But the title, you know the title.
[51:41]
Jake Shane
No, Cheetah Girls, like, was my. Okay, yeah, like that was like. I was like, oh, I like that. This, I think that was like, I think before Gaga it was, it was the Cheetah Girls.
[51:50]
Lucy Dacus
Cheetah Girls.
[51:51]
Jake Shane
I was like, oh, I like, thank God for them. Pop music. And I like, what's going on here?
[51:54]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[51:55]
Jake Shane
Yeah. Did you ever think about what you're therapist about?
[51:58]
Lucy Dacus
Yes. I'm making a choice between two things that I'm therapist about. Okay. I'm gonna. This one's not that fun. It's what I'm actually therapist about right now. Renewable energy is a hoax.
[52:12]
Jake Shane
Tell me more.
[52:14]
Lucy Dacus
I'm so. Well, okay. I'm re. I've known like shades of this through time.
[52:18]
Jake Shane
Okay.
[52:18]
Lucy Dacus
And not all the like that. Don't get mad at me. And also proved me wrong. But what I am reading is like, first of all, if you are doing. If you have like an electric car, right. But electricity is still on coal. If the grid is still on coal, you are just adding a step and buying a car that is then necessitating like lithium mining, which is terrible. Like the making a battery is really bad for the environment.
[52:45]
Jake Shane
Right.
[52:46]
Lucy Dacus
Solar panels only last 25 years. Also have a bunch of mining and they are going to be trash soon. And what are we going to do with all these solar panels? And also the battery space for the energy that's made is like more batteries that we're having to mine. Hydroelectric electric is really bad for environments. And like building dams basically. Like, it can really disrupt natural habitats. Wind turbines, you know, other than just killing wildlife, they shake the ground, which can make it not usable for animal farming or agriculture, like growing things and can give severe health problems to the people nearby.
[53:33]
Jake Shane
Okay.
[53:35]
Lucy Dacus
I don't know. You're maybe getting the point. I'm reading this book that is.
[53:38]
Jake Shane
No, that's fascinating.
[53:39]
Lucy Dacus
Me know these things. So I'm very pissed because it felt like. And like being like, recycling is the thing and then recycling often is fake. Like I still do it. It's like sending a prayer, you know, it's just like, yeah, you know, give it to God. Give my plastic to this box.
[53:56]
Jake Shane
Like blue box.
[53:57]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. And just hope for the best. And. But I, I basically think that all these like solutions that people are trying to come up with are to legitimize the amount of use. When actually like the problem is like the use of these things is terrible. The Internet itself also like the amount of servers that are used for search engines, all of your unopened email. Like I have like 10, 000 emails or something. Like all of the storage is also needing, like, I don't know. I'm. I'm just legitimately pissed about all of this.
[54:34]
Jake Shane
And I'm like, as you should be.
[54:36]
Lucy Dacus
I, you know, in my head I'm just like, there will be a point in my life where I am like growing my own food and stuff. And I'm like, why am I not doing that right now? Because I don't have the land. That's the other thing is being like, oh, it's just as easy as that. People can't buy land.
[54:49]
Jake Shane
Right.
[54:50]
Lucy Dacus
The intersections of capitalism making it impossible for people to eat healthy, live healthy, be okay. And yeah, so I feel a little bit pissed about that.
[55:01]
Jake Shane
Yeah, that's a very righteous thing to be pissed about.
[55:05]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[55:07]
Jake Shane
What do you think then? The answer is for, if it's not renewable energy, what do you do?
[55:17]
Lucy Dacus
It would be amazing. It's like. And here's the answer, everyone that, like, no. I'm so glad you finally asked me, because I've been, like, waiting for somebody to ask, and I've been sitting on this for a long time. Long time. Yeah. I think, again, like, the recycling thing, it's a prayer. It's the best that people have told. It's okay. We're not scientists. We can't catch up and go to 10 years of college and grad school and be like, your study is wrong. You know? Right, right. But, yeah, just realizing that a lot of science is bought by the military. And, you know, the studies that are chosen, you know, these oil companies, they buy scientists because these people go to school and then they need a job. And the people that have big money are the military and oil companies.
[56:02]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[56:03]
Lucy Dacus
And so the studies are like, it's fine. Like, they're biased because they create the studies in order to get results that they want.
[56:09]
Jake Shane
Right.
[56:10]
Lucy Dacus
Science is important in general, but, like, you can't have faith in every study because who funded it and why?
[56:17]
Jake Shane
I actually remember learning about that in high school. They were always like, look, who funded the study? You should always check out who funded the study. And that should tell you everything you need to know. Wow.
[56:28]
Lucy Dacus
We on J Store. Check it out. J Store. Yeah, I gotta get back on my J Store tip. I saw someone with the J Store hat, and I was like, that's a lot. I liked it. It's a lot. But I guess I like a lot because. What's that? What else? A little.
[56:49]
Jake Shane
I guess you're kind of right. Like, I guess you're kind of right.
[56:55]
Lucy Dacus
That's a lot. And it was everything.
[56:57]
Jake Shane
It was everything. And maybe their J Store hat was everything, too.
[57:01]
Lucy Dacus
Closer to everything. And not much is closer to nothing.
[57:07]
Jake Shane
Yes. I needed that today.
[57:10]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[57:10]
Jake Shane
Thank you. Thank you. I needed that. With that being said, should we get into the tell me what's wrongs?
[57:15]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, yeah.
[57:16]
Jake Shane
Brace yourself. Seriously. I just walked in on my parents, but they've been divorced for five years. Let that sink in. Help. Maybe I should run away. Well, I wouldn't run away. I actually think that's kind of beautiful.
[57:26]
Lucy Dacus
What's the. What advice you need?
[57:28]
Jake Shane
I don't know. That's what I'm wondering. I mean, I guess it's like walking on your parents. It's like, horrendous.
[57:32]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, I'm. I'm sorry about that.
[57:35]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[57:36]
Lucy Dacus
But they've been. They've been separated for five years. I'm just like, there's so many other details. Was it a bad separate. Is there one parent that you're like, no, don't let this happen again. The other one. Do you like them?
[57:46]
Jake Shane
Right.
[57:47]
Lucy Dacus
You know, like, it is totally their business. I. I'm a big believer in walking in on, like, sex should be for the people that decided to be there. Like, see, like, observed. I don't like observing sex that I wasn't invited to.
[57:59]
Jake Shane
Okay. Period.
[58:00]
Lucy Dacus
I don't like that for that person.
[58:02]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[58:03]
Lucy Dacus
I hope they can get over it.
[58:04]
Jake Shane
I hope they can get over it too. Damn. My brother's best friend, every time he gets drunk, constantly makes fun of me, jokes about me, and it's just an. How do I stop this?
[58:15]
Lucy Dacus
Again, there's so many factors.
[58:17]
Jake Shane
I would talk to your brother.
[58:19]
Lucy Dacus
I'm like, will that work?
[58:21]
Jake Shane
Probably not.
[58:22]
Lucy Dacus
It's only when the brother's drunk.
[58:23]
Jake Shane
It's when the brother's best friend is drunk and he's, like, making. Maybe. I mean, I think in some twisted way, he probably has a crush on you.
[58:31]
Lucy Dacus
Oh.
[58:31]
Jake Shane
Which is, like, gross.
[58:32]
Lucy Dacus
But wait, so it's the brother's best friend that is drunk and mean to the. The brother of the brother?
[58:39]
Jake Shane
Brother or sister.
[58:40]
Lucy Dacus
Sister.
[58:41]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[58:41]
Lucy Dacus
True.
[58:42]
Jake Shane
Unclear.
[58:42]
Lucy Dacus
I just. I made assumptions. I made gay assumptions.
[58:45]
Jake Shane
No, I do that all the time.
[58:46]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. I mean, they should talk when he's not drunk. And also, like, just physical boundaries of, like, if you know that's happening. Depends on how young you are. Like, childhood's so hard because you have to be in your house.
[59:00]
Jake Shane
Oh.
[59:00]
Lucy Dacus
But also, like, depending on if you can go to a friend's house. Like, right. Just get out of that situation.
[59:07]
Jake Shane
Right.
[59:09]
Lucy Dacus
Unless you kind of want to check and see if they have a crush.
[59:11]
Jake Shane
My best friend and her boyfriend are doing long distance. He lives close to me. She went out of the country. So he comes to me for everything. Issues that he needs to go to his girlfriend about, but he doesn't want to. I've tried distancing myself, but he will call me nonstop or call my other friends, asking me where I'm at, what should I do? Because this is becoming too much.
[59:29]
Lucy Dacus
They said that they've already tried to set boundaries against it.
[59:32]
Jake Shane
Yeah. And it's not. I would talk to the friend. I will say, do you watch housewives?
[59:37]
Lucy Dacus
I have seen episodes, but I am not in the way people are.
[59:40]
Jake Shane
Okay. So in the new season of Beverly Hills, Kyle is talking to Dorit's ex husband. They're separated now and it's just messy. So I would acknowledge it with your friend sooner rather than later before it gets out of control. Because it sounds like the friend isn't aware that they're talking about these things.
[59:59]
Lucy Dacus
Right.
[60:00]
Jake Shane
And maybe just be like, look, I've been, I'm sorry. Honesty is always the best policy. It really is true.
[60:05]
Lucy Dacus
Yep.
[60:06]
Jake Shane
Like attack ahead on before it gets out of control. Which it sounds like it is.
[60:10]
Lucy Dacus
Even the step before that, I would go because sometimes what I've learned is sometimes I think I set boundaries and one, the person doesn't respect them or I didn't do a very good job.
[60:20]
Jake Shane
Okay.
[60:20]
Lucy Dacus
So I'll have to be like, hey. When I was like, I need some time, what I actually meant was I don't want to see you for like this amount of time.
[60:26]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[60:27]
Lucy Dacus
So maybe be like, hey, don't come to me with any problems regarding our friend. And I really encourage you to do this yourself.
[60:35]
Jake Shane
Right.
[60:36]
Lucy Dacus
Because ultimately if just put it out there that, like, if you come to me again, I will bring it to her, which is not what you want.
[60:42]
Jake Shane
Right.
[60:42]
Lucy Dacus
So I'm just going to be clear that that is the path.
[60:46]
Jake Shane
Yes. I love that.
[60:48]
Lucy Dacus
Cool.
[60:48]
Jake Shane
Yeah. That was great advice.
[60:50]
Lucy Dacus
Great.
[60:51]
Jake Shane
That was awesome. That was like a real solution, period.
[60:55]
Lucy Dacus
I'm going to get a degree when I get out of here.
[60:57]
Jake Shane
You are in therapy?
[60:59]
Lucy Dacus
Therapists from post university.
[61:00]
Jake Shane
Yes. I've been in a situationship for like two years and I can't seem to get myself out of it. We both, we've both had spells of getting with other people, but she refuses to commit to me. We hang out quite often, but have only actually hooked up a few times because she's too afraid of being intimate. Same she gets with so many other people though. No problem. She refuses to be vulnerable and runs away from a real relationship. What should I do?
[61:24]
Lucy Dacus
The person that wrote this, if there has to be somebody in the wrong, they're the one in the wrong.
[61:30]
Jake Shane
Tell me more.
[61:31]
Lucy Dacus
I think when you say situationship, I'm like, that sounds like you're not willing to admit that you have different ideas of expectations.
[61:39]
Jake Shane
Okay.
[61:40]
Lucy Dacus
Being like, oh, it's such. If you're waiting for somebody to change, you are not accepting what they have to offer. Like that to me sounds like this person is like of being like, oh, I'm afraid of being intimate. Maybe if they want to get with other people, then they can. If it hurts you, you can like, what do you mean you can't get out of it.
[61:59]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[62:00]
Lucy Dacus
Does that Mean, you're choosing to do it.
[62:02]
Jake Shane
Right.
[62:02]
Lucy Dacus
That's just maybe how it is. Like, being like, you need to have this real relationship is like, maybe one of the reasons it's not happening is that they don't want it and they're not willing to say it because they like you and they want connection with you, but they don't want it on your terms. But they are afraid you're gonna drop them because of, you know. And who knows? I'm, like, maybe projecting. But I think, like, one of the big recent lessons of the past years of my life is just, like, getting super for real about what people have to offer. And when it's less than what I want, still accepting it. And being like, that's a gift, unless it feels bad. And being like, I have to make other choices.
[62:46]
Jake Shane
Right.
[62:46]
Lucy Dacus
And ultimately there might be someone obsessed with you.
[62:49]
Jake Shane
Right. That you're missing out on.
[62:51]
Lucy Dacus
Yes. So I don't know all the details, but per this exercise, that's what I have to say.
[62:57]
Jake Shane
Well, enough said.
[62:59]
Lucy Dacus
That was great.
[63:00]
Jake Shane
That was great. You're bringing this, like, new perspective. It's like, if that was just me there, I'd be like that.
[63:06]
Lucy Dacus
Like, I think the person writing it needs to have self respect and also self awareness.
[63:12]
Jake Shane
Yeah, self awareness is key. I have actually zero chemistry with anyone I find attractive. Like, I'm so unbelievably extroverted. I feel like I wrote this when it comes to friends and parties, but the second someone's good looking or, God forbid, giving me attention, I shut down. Please help. I feel this way, too. I feel I'm. I think it's that I'm so uncomfortable in my own body that, like, I.
[63:34]
Lucy Dacus
Have time with that. I mean, I'm like, that definitely is about something not romantic, right? Like, that's like, okay, how do, like, help me is like, you have to love yourself so you can agree with whoever loves you, as RuPaul said, in other words. But, yeah, I don't know why I'm talking. Like, I know. I feel like my tone is like, I know what to say.
[64:00]
Jake Shane
Really? Why?
[64:03]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, that just sounds very sad and, like, just fear. But that's one. Specifically, I'm like, okay, are you shutting down because you're afraid that you won't live up to their expectations? Are you shutting down because you're afraid that one day you'll lose them? You will, right? Are you shutting down because you have body image issues and that's something that you want to address? Are you shutting down because of, like, you've told yourself that you're going to shut down. And it's just this obsessive thing. Like it's intrusive thought that you aren't up for this. There's so many different angles of that. And I would recommend therap. Therapists.
[64:45]
Jake Shane
Therapists.
[64:45]
Lucy Dacus
Therapy Therapists and speed date therapist. Not all therapists are the same.
[64:50]
Jake Shane
They are not. Yeah, I know.
[64:52]
Lucy Dacus
It take like five sessions at a time.
[64:55]
Jake Shane
Oh.
[64:55]
Lucy Dacus
And then. Oh, if you're finding a new therapist, take like, don't be like, I'll try one for a year and see. Have like actual sessions with a bunch or an amount that you can pay for or that are available and be like, actually this one is the best.
[65:13]
Jake Shane
That's actually a really smart idea. We prescribe Speed date. Speed dating Therapy Therapist.
[65:18]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[65:18]
Jake Shane
Therapists. Therapists. Speed date.
[65:21]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[65:22]
Jake Shane
Yeah. That's actually really smart because I'm always like, well, I'm with one for a year. And that.
[65:28]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[65:30]
Jake Shane
Learning something new. I met this guy back in February and fell for him immediately. He would stay up with me all night and just talk. We would talk about our dreams, goals and future and family. He told me he wanted to meet my family and have a family with me. That he ghosted me out of nowhere. Sos.
[65:43]
Lucy Dacus
My thing with ghosting. Did you just give yourself a papercut? Do you. Let me see.
[65:48]
Jake Shane
I think it's fine. Is there actually a cut, do you mean? No, I'm okay.
[65:52]
Lucy Dacus
There's.
[65:53]
Jake Shane
I think I'm okay.
[65:53]
Lucy Dacus
Okay.
[65:54]
Jake Shane
What were you saying? Thank you for that.
[65:57]
Lucy Dacus
So sorry.
[65:57]
Jake Shane
No, it's okay.
[65:58]
Lucy Dacus
The thing about ghosting is that person revealed something about them that makes them unfit to be your partner. I'm just like, if you're getting ghosted by somebody, you now know that they're avoidant, that they can't. They're not brave. Like, maybe everything was going great and you've just now learned what should be enough information to tell you that they're not it.
[66:20]
Jake Shane
Right.
[66:21]
Lucy Dacus
Usually that's I think what my advice would be.
[66:24]
Jake Shane
Yeah. As someone who has ghosted people in the past and I'm not proud of it, like that is why I've ghosted people.
[66:30]
Lucy Dacus
That's the thing. Ghosting is not a all the time bad thing. Because there's actually people that tried to communicate. Like, no. Or I just. I just don't trust them ultimately.
[66:41]
Jake Shane
Right.
[66:42]
Lucy Dacus
So I don't. Who knows about the situation. I'm not saying that the person's not trustworthy, but like, ghosting is sometimes the last resort. Like you have to do it. And of course the person's going to be mad, but they also. Maybe you're ghosting them because they were not listening to you.
[66:58]
Jake Shane
Right.
[66:58]
Lucy Dacus
And it was over. You already had the conversation so many times, period.
[67:03]
Jake Shane
Do you have a song about ghosting?
[67:05]
Lucy Dacus
I have a song where I say I'm a ghost.
[67:07]
Jake Shane
That works.
[67:08]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, it's called the Shell.
[67:09]
Jake Shane
All right, well, we put that story.
[67:11]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[67:12]
Jake Shane
Me and my roommate keep getting in fights because I like to sleep freezing and she literally has the thermostat at 75.
[67:18]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, my God. This is.
[67:20]
Jake Shane
And it's so awkward. I'd like to change it. And she changes it back. We've talked about it, but there's no agreement.
[67:24]
Lucy Dacus
You have talked about it, and there's no agreement.
[67:26]
Jake Shane
You should maybe find another roommate number one. That. But in the meantime, I have an idea. You should switch off nights. One night, 75. One night's colder. The nights that it's 75, you use your fan and, like, in room, like, cooling stuff. And then the nights that it's colder, your roommate can use, like, in room heating stuff because, like, there's, like, heating fans as well. That's my prescription.
[67:47]
Lucy Dacus
That's really nice.
[67:48]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[67:48]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[67:49]
Jake Shane
Compromise.
[67:49]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[67:50]
Jake Shane
But I.
[67:51]
Lucy Dacus
Because that's hard. Like, if you love each other and you really like living together. And that's the one thing. I like your idea better.
[67:56]
Jake Shane
Do you sleep cold or hot?
[67:58]
Lucy Dacus
I sleep no matter what.
[68:00]
Jake Shane
Oh, wow. I love that.
[68:01]
Lucy Dacus
It's kind of amazing.
[68:02]
Jake Shane
That's amazing.
[68:03]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[68:04]
Jake Shane
I sleep hot, freezing cold.
[68:07]
Lucy Dacus
It's better for you, health wise.
[68:09]
Jake Shane
Oh, awesome.
[68:10]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. So maybe that's another thing is that the person who's sleeping cold should make a PowerPoint and convince the other person.
[68:15]
Jake Shane
I don't understand how someone can sleep hot.
[68:16]
Lucy Dacus
I don't also like where get a better blanket. There's other things. Yes.
[68:22]
Jake Shane
Does your partner sleep cold or sleep hot or also sleeps no matter what?
[68:27]
Lucy Dacus
Sleeps terribly no matter what. Oh, yeah.
[68:29]
Jake Shane
Interesting.
[68:30]
Lucy Dacus
That's the combo.
[68:31]
Jake Shane
Yeah. Our roommate said that if we don't share all our food with him, that we are selfish people.
[68:38]
Lucy Dacus
You know what? I've had this energy in my life.
[68:40]
Jake Shane
Really?
[68:40]
Lucy Dacus
What are you doing with people like this? Okay, go ahead.
[68:42]
Jake Shane
We called him out on that. Now he's not speaking with us. We have to keep living with him for the next eight months. What do we do?
[68:48]
Lucy Dacus
Oh, my God. This one's actually nightmarish to me.
[68:52]
Jake Shane
I mean, at least you and your other roommates seemingly are on the same page.
[68:56]
Lucy Dacus
It's like when they're cooking. They're not factoring him in. Or is it, like, when you go grocery shopping? I get that stuff.
[69:01]
Jake Shane
I think.
[69:02]
Lucy Dacus
What's the money aspect? Is it, like.
[69:04]
Jake Shane
I don't really get it, but I remember I used to. Brett and Julia used to cook with me without me all the time, and I used to be furious. So, like, I've been the other roommate, but, like, maybe the fact that he won't speak to you because you're not down to share the food is a little wild.
[69:16]
Lucy Dacus
That is really wild. Like, take care of yourself. Oh, my God. You don't. Like, I'm so anyone. That's, like, you're mean for not feeding me. Are you four years old?
[69:24]
Jake Shane
Right. No.
[69:26]
Lucy Dacus
It sounds like, you know, you have an out and you have eight months of unpleasantness. And if you want to have a whole talk about, like, meal planning or him contributing money for stuff or, like, whatever, whatever, do it. And if not, just, like, endure.
[69:45]
Jake Shane
Endure.
[69:46]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah.
[69:46]
Jake Shane
I prescribe the show Worst Roommate ever on Netflix.
[69:49]
Lucy Dacus
Okay.
[69:50]
Jake Shane
To remind yourself that things could be worse.
[69:52]
Lucy Dacus
Wow.
[69:52]
Jake Shane
Or the movie Roommate with Leighton Meester. That's a horror movie. Things could be worse. Well, Lucy, what did we learn today? I learned that renewable energy is a hoax.
[70:06]
Lucy Dacus
I learned that the last time you cried, it was in LA at the Macaroni. Yeah. Macaroni Republic. Yes. I learned. I love this.
[70:15]
Jake Shane
Oh, that's Patrick. Patrick, this is Cassandra.
[70:19]
Lucy Dacus
Cassandra?
[70:21]
Jake Shane
Yeah.
[70:23]
Lucy Dacus
That's crazy.
[70:24]
Jake Shane
She comes with me everywhere.
[70:25]
Lucy Dacus
Wow. I got a tiny one of these for my brother who loves octopuses.
[70:29]
Jake Shane
Oh, he does. I should talk.
[70:31]
Lucy Dacus
He loves them. He really. I gave him an IOU for a tattoo. He wants, like, a whole tattoo piece. And. Yeah, I love. And I've had a great time. Everyone told me you'd be nice.
[70:43]
Jake Shane
Oh, that's such a.
[70:44]
Lucy Dacus
They were right.
[70:46]
Jake Shane
Did you have fun?
[70:47]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, absolutely. I had a great time for my tea.
[70:49]
Jake Shane
I think this is the calmest I've ever been in your life. Yes.
[70:53]
Lucy Dacus
That's delightful.
[70:54]
Jake Shane
Well, Lucy, I really, really enjoyed spending time with you.
[70:58]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah. Likewise.
[71:00]
Jake Shane
Stream Lucy's forthcoming album, Forever's a feeling, out March 28.
[71:05]
Lucy Dacus
Or else.
[71:06]
Jake Shane
Or else you'll never know what forever feels like.
[71:12]
Lucy Dacus
Yeah, it's true.
[71:14]
Jake Shane
Lucy, you want to say bye to the pussies?
[71:17]
Lucy Dacus
Bye.
[71:18]
Jake Shane
Bye.