← Therapy for Black Girls
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- [00:11]
A
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining me for this special bonus episode of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after word from our sponsors.
- [01:11]
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This is an iHeart podcast. The best kind of help is the kind you don't even have to ask for. Like your friend pulling up on moving day with a truck, a speaker and snacks ready to go. Well, that's the energy you get with AT&T's new guarantee. If there's ever a network interruption, they make it right by giving you credit for a full day of service. Proactively credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers. Restrictions and exclusions apply. Learn more@att.com guarantee for full details at and T Connecting Changes Everything.
- [01:50]
A
Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
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C
Parents of Twins if you're familiar with.
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B
Far off drop offs dad, stop.
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A
Stop.
- [03:12]
B
Stop right here or get DMs about what's for dinner. You may be experiencing tween milestones for your son or daughter. These can start at age 9. HPV vaccination, a type of cancer prevention against certain HPV related cancers, can start then too.
- [03:26]
C
For most, HPV clears on its own, but for those who don't clear the.
- [03:30]
B
Virus, it can cause certain cancers later in life. Embrace this phase, help protect them in the next.
- [03:34]
C
Ask their doctor today about HPV vaccination Brought to you by Merck.
- [03:43]
A
The NATO Podcast, executive produced and hosted by Gabrielle Horton and Martina Abrams. Alunga is an audio docuseries sent centering Black parenthood and reproductive justice in America. Since launching the show, Gabrielle and Martina have brought us deeply personal stories, sharing the lived experiences of Black women, gender expansive people and families navigating the reproductive care space. Through that storytelling, they not only educate their audiences and raise awareness, but they also push for real systemic change in maternal health care, advocating for a future where Black families have access to care that is truly equitable and rooted in compassion. Some of you might remember an episode of Natal that we shared a while back. Well, today I'm thrilled to welcome Martina and Gabrielle back for this special bonus episode where we dive into all the incredible work that went into bringing season three of their podcast to life. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us on social media using the hashtag tbginsession. Or join us over in our new Patreon Channel to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com here's our conversation. Well, I am so honored to be joined by Gabrielle and Martina today. I'm very excited to chat with you all. So many of our community members may know you from Natal. We did a feed swap a couple of years ago and people likely tuned in. But for people who maybe are not familiar and need a little bit of an introduction, can you introduce yourselves and tell us how Natal came To be sure.
- [05:23]
B
Do you want to kick us off Gabrielle?
- [05:27]
C
Sure. I'm Gabrielle Horton, originally from Englewood, California, executive producer and also co host alongside Martina on Natal. Natal is a podcast about having a baby while black. I'm sure we'll get a chance to sort of talk about how it's expanded, but I really think about the show as a reproductive justice series that helps to chronicle and document the memories and experiences of black women, gender expansive people and families and their experiences navigating reproductive care.
- [06:01]
B
And I'm Martina Abrahams Ilunga. I'm based in Brooklyn, New York. I'm co executive producer and host alongside Gabrielle.
- [06:11]
A
And how would you both say that NATO has evolved over the years that you've been doing it?
- [06:17]
B
That's a great question. I would say first, before we get into how it's evolved, the one thing that's been consistent across all three seasons, we ask everyone we talk to, what should care look like? What does care look like for black birthing folks, for black reproductive folks in this country? The way that we've answered those questions has looked differently each season. So we started off really wanting to get a sense of, okay, what does care look like across the country? What are folks facing every single day? How are folks navigating, navigating their care on their journeys to trying to have a baby? Season one is really a gumbo pot of stories from folks of different kinds of identities, different kinds of circumstances, different age groups. And then season two, we wanted to go really deep into the experience of folks who are navigating, having babies, black folks in rural places. So we followed three families really closely on their journeys. And then season three, we kind of switched up the format and even who we spoke to. Season three launched last fall, and we were really thinking about how has the Dobbs decision and the Supreme Court kind of rolling back Roe v. Wade affect what care has looked like? And so we wanted to talk to the people who are on the front lines and doing this work and fighting. And we featured the voices of eight different advocates, different birth workers, folks who are doing organizing work in conversation with one another as they explored how their work has changed or evolved before, during, and in this case, after Roe v. Wade. So our work has expanded based off of what is kind of happening in the atmosphere. What is going on in the country? What questions are people having? What voices are we not hearing from? Those are some of the things that have guided the ways in which Natal has expanded in the last five years.
- [08:12]
C
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with everything Martina said. And I think to add on to that, not only is this year Natal's 5th birthday, 5th anniversary, but I think in terms of thinking about how we've expanded, I think it's the first season was really driven by, honestly, a deep fear that we had about what we now sort of know and is sort of named as a black maternal health crisis. We were hearing stories from friends of ours. We were Even hearing stories from loved ones, parents about their own experiences, navigating care in the hospital system, all the things that they didn't know, all the things that they wish they had known, and sometimes, in some cases, the trauma and even sometimes near death experiences. So that really fueled season one in many ways, trying to find answers to this thing that Martina and I and our production team, we were afraid of as folks who hadn't given birth, but have had a myriad of reproductive care experiences of our own. And I'd say that with each season, I think what also guides us is that we continue to open ourselves up, like how expansive liberation can be. Right. And I think when we think about reproductive justice, it's not just like the pregnancy and childbirth and postpartum. We're really thinking wholeheartedly and in conversation with families and providers and birth workers who are thinking very expansively about liberation in this way. So I think with each season, you kind of get a chance to see us also kind of step outside of our own fear, if you will, to really start to reimagine what care can look like and how we build care systems that work for all of us. And yeah, so I think you kind of see us grow as well with the season and try to sort of guide those conversations in those ways as well.
- [09:53]
B
Yeah, and you see it in the ways that the topics expand. Like season one, we really focused on people's pregnancy, birthing, and postpartum. Season two, the storytelling began with. For each of the parent storytellers that we featured really began when they were children. What did you first learn about your body? How did you first learn how to take care of yourself? What were the lessons you received about care, about going to the doctor, about your bodily autonomy? And then season three was introducing, really, for the. Not for the first time on our show, but in this focused way, the idea of abortion care and how we connect abortion care to the larger reproductive justice work that's being done and showing these connections between abortion and maternal health care more broadly and how, you know, they're not isolated issues. So I think that feeds into what. Yeah, you were saying, Gabby.
- [10:44]
A
Yeah. And I know I don't have to tell you to this the precarious time we find ourselves in history. And, you know, I think a lot about, like, black women like you all doing this kind of work in this kind of way at this time. And so, you know, how would you say your heart has been as you continue to pour into this work? And how have you been taking care of yourself, giving of yourself in this way, you know, as you continue to show up.
- [11:10]
B
Dr. Joy, that's a big question.
- [11:14]
C
That's a heavy one. We think about this a lot. We talk about this a lot. And to be quite honestly, Martina and I have cultivated a friendship over the past five years as well. We started off as colleagues, but I think as we've been developing our friendship, we have these conversations about how are we caring for ourselves. I'll use an example from last season, the season three that Martina referenced, where we focused on what does care look like for black families after the overturning of Roe v. Wade and episode three in particular. I share a little bit about my own abortion story, and that was something that obviously came up. As we're doing our planning, we're having pre production calls us as a team. How are we framing things? We're always trying to sort of bring ourselves to the conversation. In some ways, not focused on us, but making sure folks know that we're having our own experiences, as we're also asking folks to be vulnerable and share their experiences with us. And that was a difficult time. I did not know how to communicate how challenging it was to revisit my own abortion. That happened over a decade ago. And I really struggled in silence with it. As much as we sort of preach this openness and honesty and vulnerability, I was struggling to really show up honestly with my team, with Martina. And so when at the end of the season when we had our sort of big reflection and debrief, we talked about that. And then Martina and I had even further conversations. What does it look like to care for ourselves in the midst of doing this work? And so I think we think a lot about that. Obviously, there's examples I can share. Taking walks outside, stopping for deep breaths, getting back into therapy, just thinking about ways that we can sort of build this sort of larger tool kit for ourselves as much as we're sort of encouraging others to do the same. So that's sort of one example where the tension was just really there. In the midst of trying to produce and get this season out and just really struggling to find my footing, which I think is just a very normal and human thing. So I think we're kind of always trying to figure it out, especially as our own stories and memories are coming back to surface or we're engaging with those who are really moving us. We have to really sort of be deliberate in the time that we carve out for taking a pause, taking a moment of rest, and really thinking about how we care for ourselves through it. All just as much as we care for the storytellers and advocates that we work with as well.
- [13:35]
B
And I'll add on to that, I think season three also taught me that so much of what we talk about is also, how can people show up for other folks in their lives? How can you show up for the friend who is having a baby or the friend who might have experienced a loss, or the friend who is navigating an abortion? And season three taught me that we have to show up for each other in that way, too. So the things that we're talking about on the show, like, we need to put in practice as producers, as teammates, as friends, and that all of these things are connected, like, this is our life too.
- [14:07]
A
Had the decision been made to focus season three on, like, abortion rights and things even before we knew that there was a possibility of the rights being overturned, or was that a decision made afterward?
- [14:19]
B
It was made after.
- [14:22]
C
Yeah, it was one of those, right?
- [14:24]
A
Yeah.
- [14:24]
B
It was like it was happening. Right. The Dobbs decision came down right as we were finishing up season two. And we took a bit of a break between seasons two and three. So we were following what was happening and it was just top of mind for us. And we knew we couldn't come into season three without addressing it. We knew it would be a part of it. I think a little bit later is when we decided that, you know, that would be the focus for season three. But we thought it was really important and an opportunity to show folks the ways in which all of these things are connected. In lots of spaces, perinatal care or maternal care is separate from abortion care. And that in many cases, that is intentional. But when we think about what care looks like in the full spectrum of someone's reproductive experience, none of these things are in isolation and we even see it. Some of the stories that are coming out in the news around gender expansive. Folks who are looking for experience miscarriage or have pregnancies that they know won't be able to go to full term. And so now they and their doctors are trying to figure out, how do we move forward. They're not two separate things. Everything is connected. So we are thought season three would be a cool opportunity to demonstrate some of that.
- [15:40]
C
Yeah. And I think as the show has continued to expand over the past three seasons, we were starting to just hear more and more, especially from Southern birth workers and advocates and organizers that Dobbs was on the way. We sort of knew it was coming. And even in season two, abortion comes up and we have Kwita Tinsley Peterson and Oriyaku Njoku, both who were at the time of Arc Southeast, an abortion fund that's serving the greater sort of not just Georgia, but also other states in the Southeast region. So we were also just listening carefully and deeply to folks who were on the ground who were doing this work, who are already perhaps in states where there are already so many restrictions to care, even pre jobs. So I think it was something that we knew we had an interest in. And I think to Martina's point, I think thinking really critically about how we can invite black folks, as always, which is who is always our focus, to really think about how do we kind of remove the shame and the stigma that's around abortion care or the decisions people make about their bodies for their best interests and for their health. How do we use this ruling to really sort of invite people into the conversation and realize that all of these things are connected? And autonomy is something that we really, I think, stress a lot in this season. But it's something that kind of continues to come up. And I think the Dobbs decision was just one where it's like we just could not ignore all that sort of coming out of it, all the organizing, all of the resistance, all of the all the activism in response to it. So it just felt like a natural fit in that way, for sure.
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A
More from our conversation after the break.
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B
There's something special about folks who come through without being asked. Like your coworker surprising you with your favorite coffee just because. Or your friend handing you the aux cord the moment you get in the car. No debate, no fight. Just positive vibes. That kind of love. It just hits different. And that's exactly the energy. AT AND T is on with their new guarantee. If there's a Network interruption, AT&T will proactively credit you for a full day of service. No calls, no emails, no jumping through hoops. It's just handled. It's like the universe saying I got you. Except this time it's not the stars aligning, it's your network. And let's be real, that connection is everything. Whether you're holding down the group chat, checking in with your parents, scrolling TikTok, your network's gotta come through. And if there's a problem, AT AND T is on the case. No stress, no drama, just real backup. When it counts. Credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers, restrictions and exclusions apply. Learn more@att.com guarantee. For full details at and T Connecting changes everything.
- [18:34]
A
Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you're booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I travel somewhere, I'm typically determined to try the best local pizza and find the best spa experience. With Chase Sapphire Reserve you have access to everything from private dinners hosted by award winning chefs to VIP treatment at the most sought after events. Chase Sapphire Reserve allows you to take advantage of one of a kind experiences while earning three times points on dining worldwide. No matter your destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase sapphire reserve@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply Parents of Tweens if.
- [20:07]
C
You'Re familiar with far off drop offs dad, stop.
- [20:10]
A
Stop.
- [20:10]
B
Stop right here or get DMs about what's for dinner. You may be experiencing tween milestones for.
- [20:16]
C
Your son or daughter.
- [20:17]
B
These can start at age 9. HPV vaccination, a type of cancer prevention against certain HPV related cancers, can start then too.
- [20:24]
C
For most, HPV clears on its own, but for those who don't clear the.
- [20:28]
B
Virus, it can cause certain cancers later in life. Embrace this phase, help protect them in the next.
- [20:32]
C
Ask their doctor today about HPV vaccination brought to you by Merck.
- [20:39]
A
I feel like season three opens beautifully, kind of laying the groundwork for like the last long history that Black women have had in organizing for reproductive freedoms. Can you talk about maybe some of the key lessons that we should be paying attention to that maybe the larger reproductive freedom advocacy kind of overlooks?
- [20:56]
B
That's a great question. I think one of the first ones is that Black folks have been a part of this movement and Black folks have been having conversations about abortion for a very long time. And Black folks have been leading this movement, have been Organizing have been working to provide safe abortions to help folks access safe abortions for years. You know, and so that this is abortion is also a black issue. I think that was one of the key takeaways from like a lot of our research and stuff in preparation for that conversation between kwajalein Jackson and Ms. Marie Lenor.
- [21:38]
C
Yeah. Although there are so many lessons from this season we still reflect on, even though it's our shortest season to date, I think a lot about Ms. Marie Lehner. I know Martina probably can add to it. It was a very emotional recording for our team. Ms. Marie, for those who haven't listened, Ms. Marie Lehner is a founding member of the Janes, which was an underground abortion network in Chicago that was operating in the 60s. So we're talking pre Roe v. Wade. And she was one of the only, if not the first black woman members. Right. Helping just everyday families and pregnant folks in Chicago get the care they needed, but was not sort of being provided by the state. And so to have an 80 plus year old woman, an elder activist, really a legend in our eyes, like talk about superstar, she is icon. But to sort of sit down with her, to have the time with her, to hear about her stories, to hear about her background growing up in Chicago, witnessing sort of all of these sort of activist movements just happening and really sort of finding her calling within this reproductive justice movement. I think. Martina, we were talking earlier, you talked a lot about how just like this arc is so long. Right. And this work is not new and which is also why we sort of titled that episode is not no White Women's Movement because we've been at the forefront of it. And I think too when it comes to abortion care, even though it's not that exact language that's sort of laid out in the tenets for reproductive justice, the right to have a child and the right to not have a child, the right to parent a child in a safe environment, those are core tenets. Right. And so abortion is one sort of option people have if they do not feel that they can, whether it's bring the baby to full term, the pregnancy is not viable, if there's sort of other sort of conditions, or if it's just a personal decision that folks are making in their best interest. And so I think we just tooks away so many nuggets. I feel like mutual aid came up a lot. How are folks supporting others in a community level in the absence of government, in the absence of sort of state support? And so mutual aid comes up a lot. And I think we've been hearing that, especially when the work that we do with Natal, because when we think about it, five years ago was the beginning of the pandemic. We also did not plan that when Natal came out. So mutual aid, I think, has been this consistent theme of how black folks continue to organize for and amongst each other, how we continue to build power for and amongst each other. And so it's really just stressing this sort of. Of collectivism, if you will, this sort of communal care. And I think that really just sort of came through in all of our interviews in that way.
- [24:18]
B
Absolutely.
- [24:19]
A
So something else that has kind of generated a lot of conversation in a post Dobbs era is like, digital privacy, you know, so all these conversations about, oh, take the period trackers off your phones and like, don't be honest. And with all of these electronics and technology, I wonder if there's anything that came up in your research or as you had kind of conversations for this season that surprised you about digital privacy.
- [24:41]
B
I laughed because I was one of those people, you know, I was like, oh no, I deleted my period tracking app. I was like, they're not gonna get me. But in our work this season and in speaking with the legal folks and the advocates that we did, the challenge is really less about the app of it all. And it's really about the ways in which the government kind of can use, or folks can use loopholes and archaic laws on the books to really entrap black folks who are looking for the kind of care that they need. And I do want to make sure that I name the folks that were featured in our episode about this topic. Yves Kapier, an Esquire lawyer based in Maryland, and then Dr. Jamila Parrott, who is based in Washington D.C. and they had a really great conversation around navigating the legality of reproductive care, of abortion care, and how in their work they're helping to fight for and protect black folks who are facing legal repercussions or where the law intersects with medicine.
- [25:52]
C
Yeah, I remember at the end of that episode too, I think Ive is actually as serious or as heavy of a topic people imagine this conversation to be. There's actually a lot lightness in a lot of the episodes, a lot of humor, you know, so you might cry and laugh maybe within the five minute span every episode. But I remember towards the end if it was like, girl, if you want to use your period tracking app, use the app, you know? And so I think it's like even the folks who are helping to Fight legal cases.
- [26:20]
B
Right.
- [26:20]
C
Or go up against state and city governments and trying to protect black folks and other folks sort of right to privacy. And folks are also saying you have the right to make decisions for you if that is a convenient means for you to keep track of your cycle or other reproductive care needs. Use what you have available. And so I think that always stood out to me in that way. Right. And it wasn't her saying, get off of it. Don't ever use it. You have to go back analog and write everything by hand. And if you do so that's fine. And so I thought that that was really interesting that folks that we talk to and often are in community with, they're just really trying to meet people where they are at. Right. And I think that is always what stands out to me, especially with the privacy conversation.
- [27:05]
B
I think so much of this work is exactly that. It's just. Yeah. Meeting folks where they are with what they have. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:11]
C
And they also talked a lot about how challenging it is, like, especially for black folks. And I'm thinking too about, like, maybe even older black folks, maybe like around Martinez and I's parents, ages, if you will, So I guess they're seniors. They probably. I don't know how they feel about. About that terminology yet or approaching senior citizen age. But, you know, a lot of that kind of community building in their world is Facebook and the kind of other sort of digital apps. And so I think the organizers and advocates, like Dr. Jameela, like Ivka, they're also at a crossroads. How do you organize the very communities that are the center of your work you care a lot about, but are also being pushed farther and farther to the margins and are being threatened the most, you know, but it's still trying to sort of hold space for all of this to exist because we deserve to have the right tools to take care of ourselves and our families, you know, so, yeah, lots of good nuggets.
- [28:03]
B
Yeah.
- [28:04]
A
Yeah. As y' all were talking, I had a very vivid memory of, like, the calendar from the bank on, like, our wall at home and seeing these, like, little dots on random days and not knowing until much older, until what that was. That was my mom, like, period tracker. Right. Like, so we've been doing this. Right. Like, we've, of course, adapted with. With the tools now, but there are very analog, as you mentioned, ways for people who are interested in doing that as well.
- [28:28]
B
Yes.
- [28:29]
C
Yeah, we've been doing. We say that a lot.
- [28:32]
A
Nothing is new.
- [28:33]
C
We've been doing it.
- [28:34]
B
Nothing. Nothing is new. Nothing Is new.
- [28:37]
A
Yeah. So so much of NATO involves, like, storytelling, right? Like, that's kind of the heart of what the podcast is. How do you feel like storytelling and narrative can be helpful to. To shaping, like, public perception as well as policy?
- [28:52]
C
Storytelling is a critical aspect of this work. It's a critical aspect of creating new cultural narratives. And that's a huge part of not just sort of, like, informing and educating, but also in the reimagination of what our political systems and landscape can look like in terms of how we can reimagine our relationship with our own selves, with each other, how we connect past and present to the future. Storytelling has always been a vehicle for black folks, for us, and so really, for us, it's thinking about how we reclaim the oral tradition, which is very much an African tradition. It's an indigenous tradition of how do we sort of continue to document our stories and share them and preserve them and also think about them as really, I guess, a roadmap, if you will. They help us to really navigate how to move forward. They give us critical insights into maybe what has worked, how to pivot, how to respond to rulings such as a Dobbs decision. And I think it's just such a critical aspect of this work, and I think it's a radical part of this work. Right. And I think the way that we think about Needle is really passing a microphone to everyday families, right. Which is the bulk of our interviews over the past five years. It's been to everyday families. Families that want to be heard, want to sort of share, want to process their experiences. We pass the microphone to them to allow them to have, I guess, a dedicated space to really reflect and also start to even reimagine what care can look like, what it should look like. So it's a really interactive exercise, not just for entertainment, even though we are podcasts in that way, but we're really thinking about how do we sort of use the oral tradition to reclaim and reimagine and really use our memories as the. As the North Star, if you will.
- [30:57]
B
Yes. I also say that storytelling can be very healing. And so, as Gabrielle was speaking to, you know, the opportunity to reflect. It's a chance for people to. I think for many of the families that we've spoken to, this is the first time that they've ever shared a story like this. This is sometimes the first time they've ever spoken about their experiences in this kind of way. And there's something that can be very therapeutic about that. And there's also something that can be help to forge connection and community. I think storytelling is an act of community. It's a way for people to build intimacy and vulnerability and to be seen and held, even if we're not in a physical space together. Because much of what Natal has done has been virtual and through digital channels. It's still an opportunity for people to come together and say, I see you, I hear you, I feel you. I'm holding you, I'm hugging you. And that's a big part of Natal. Even the way that we think about how we've cared for our storytellers after they've shared stories with us and offering care sessions with the licensed psychotherapist in case there's anything they want to unpack. It's really about giving people the chance to offload if they need to. In addition to the dreaming and the reclaiming and the reimagining. Like, they all go hand in hand.
- [32:15]
A
Thank you so much for sharing that. I sometimes listen to podcasts that are, of course, entertaining and, like, engaging, but you can tell, like, people are sharing some pretty heavy stuff. And I don't know that I've ever heard anybody talk about, like, a post care. Like, this is how we take care of our interviewees after it. And of course, it's such a black woman thing to do. Right? Like, of course you thought of, like, okay, they've opened this thing up. Like, they may need care afterwards. So I really appreciate that both of that's a part of your approach, but that you've also shared that, because I don't feel like I've heard that anywhere else in terms of podcasting.
- [32:51]
B
Oh, thank you. I haven't worked on many podcasts where that's a practice, but we ditto. Yeah. We knew we could not leave people high and dry. And I think coming into this project as storytellers of people who have worked in the industry and in podcasting, there is an element to. We don't consider ourselves journalists, but there is an element to the world in which we navigate. And we do some of this work that can be exploitative, that can tap into black communities for their stories and then just leave them hanging there. And we're like, how can we. We don't want to recreate that. Like, we want our work to be restorative and reparative. So what. What is an alternative that will allow that work to be in that way? So it was important for us.
- [33:37]
A
More from our conversation after the break. Many of us play lots of different roles in life. Partner, employee, caregiver, and many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu this episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you're booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I travel somewhere, I'm typically determined to try the best local pizza and find the best spa experience. With Chase Sapphire Reserve, you have access to everything from private dinners hosted by award winning chefs to VIP treatment at the most sought after events. Chase Sapphire Reserve allows you to take advantage of one of a kind experiences while earning three times points on dining worldwide. No matter your destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase sapphire reserve@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply Parents of Tweens if you're.
- [35:19]
B
Familiar with far off drop offs dad, stop.
- [35:21]
A
Stop.
- [35:21]
B
Stop right here or get DMs about what's for dinner? You may be experiencing tween milestones for your son or daughter. These can start at age 9. HPV vaccination, a type of cancer prevention against certain HPV related cancers, can start then too.
- [35:35]
C
For most, HPV clears on its own, but for those who don't clear the virus, it can cause certain cancers later in life.
- [35:41]
B
Embrace this phase.
- [35:42]
C
Help protect them in the next. Ask their doctor today about HPV vaccination brought to you by Merck.
- [35:52]
A
So this is not something that is necessarily native to your work, but something you said made me think of it. What does it look like to preserve the oral tradition in a digital world?
- [36:04]
B
That's a great question. We love that.
- [36:07]
A
Not at all the topic, but it just made me think of it like, because you're right. Like so much of what we know is like just word of mouth passed down. Right? And I feel like there is such powerful storytelling happening right now. And then I think about how do we make sure that like five generations from now somebody can access this story.
- [36:25]
B
I mean, I think it's a lot of what we're all doing Even the work that you're doing, Dr. Joy, and in documenting people's stories, documenting experiences, documenting people's practices, all of this is something that, because it's recorded and we can save it, it's something that people will be able to hopefully refer back to. And I think that's part of the reason why I love podcasts, because of the oral tradition element of it. I think audio is one of the most intimate forms of media that we have. I. I always say it feels like someone is right, like whispering into your ear, behind your shoulder, like someone is right there with you. And that really lends itself to the oral tradition in that art form. And so I think more recently, Gabrielle and I have started thinking of podcasting and our audio work as a form of archiving, as a form of oral history and kind of bringing along this oral tradition into the current day and making sure that we are doing our part to preserve it for the future.
- [37:26]
C
Yeah. And even if, you know, future generations aren't sort of tapped into the RSS feed, we hope that, you know, over the years, we're continuing to adapt Natal so that it continues to be available and accessible. You know, and I think that's always been a big part of Natal. We've always had the podcast as the anchor. Of course, even when we started out the first season, we also built out digital programming, you know, and thinking about, okay, maybe folks didn't listen, but. Or maybe they did and want to go a little deeper. But regardless, we're going to meet them here on Zoom, or we're going to meet them sort of on IG Live, which everybody was on right in that first year or two of the pandemic. But thinking about how do we sort of document in different spaces so that folks can kind of, again, we can meet people where they're at and make sure that they're continuing to feel engaged and cared for and not sort of like if you didn't listen to podcast, shame on you. There's no shame in any of that. We're trying to sort of think about different ways to sort of really sort of, I guess, bring Natal to life, bring these stories to life. So thinking about how we've. We built out a conversation guide that first season, and even as recently as last year, we had our first in person programming, Dr. Joy. And we are thinking, both Martina and I individually and with Natal, thinking a lot about arts programming and partnerships with cultural institutions. And so we were really fortunate that we partnered with the Los Angeles County Museum of Art, LACMA for their Big Simone Lee opening celebration. We helped to co present that family day of programming where we got to introduce families across Los Angeles to really beautiful black care traditions and ritual practices. In this case, it was black doll making workshops that we had for families. And so thinking a lot about how the stories that we talk about or get a chance to share on Natal, thinking a lot about black hair traditions, ancestral traditions, how do we sort of make that available to sort of like young kids or new families or elders who might want like a different type of experience and aren't maybe so much on the podc? So I think we're also thinking about the documentation happening in different spaces as well and really just trying to sort of, I don't know, this is not really stay ahead of the curve in that way, but I don't know, the podcast will always be the thing, right? But we know right now we've got this feed and we've got an audience, but we want to continue to sort of find other spaces where folks can continue to sort of really reflect on care in this very expansive and like liberatory way.
- [39:52]
B
I think it goes back to what we were saying before about meeting people where they are. We're just kind of giving more touch points and trying to meet folks in different kinds of places and engage them in different ways that feel natural and authentic and organic.
- [40:05]
A
And as your influence continues to grow, like how do you see NATO continuing to expand the conversation? Like, what are the topics that you haven't covered yet that you're thinking about maybe for future seasons or future outreach efforts?
- [40:19]
C
That's a good question. I'll go with the future topics. Well, I'll say this, you know, as Natal is celebrating five years this year, we're really excited about that. And we're also thinking about what does the next five years in Natal look like? So I think just sort of piggybacking off of the last question, we're thinking a lot about what does it look like to continue to document these stories? What stories have we not gotten to? What does it look like to form different types of partnerships, perhaps for these oral stories to live in other permanent places as well? Topics topic wise. We are always, always trying to get back down to the south. And you can kind of notice it if you've listened to all three seasons. We always end up in the South. Every finale, every sort of episode, at least one episode is like we're just, you just hear our love for the South. I think that there's so much that we oftentimes discount about the south, it's easy to sort of. For many, to sort of disregard it, but that is where the majority of black folks live. We're thinking about, you know, the restrictions on abortion care. You're thinking about the growing maternal deserts around the. It's the south that is being hit the hardest. So when we engage with families and birth workers and advocates who are living these policies out day to day or fighting against them and resisting, in many ways, it's the south that holds the answer. So we're always excited about finding new ways to get back to the south, to pass the microphone to more Southern storytellers and to really hear how black folks are reimagining what care can be, because they've already been doing that, you know, and so we really, really look to the south as our north star, honestly. So we're always excited about who else we can kind of engage in that region. So that's always high on the list in terms of topics.
- [42:01]
B
Yeah. Plus 100 to all that.
- [42:06]
A
Who do you think might be like an unlikely listener for NATO? And why do you think they should be listening even though they might not seem like the core audience?
- [42:15]
B
I'm going to say that if you know anyone who has the propensity to get pregnant, natal is something that you should be listening to because this touches all of us. We all know someone who has, you know, gone through pregnancy or had a baby. We all know someone who's had an abortion. We all have people in our lives that need us to show up for them. So whether you are the person who is experiencing that or the person who's standing beside them, I think natal offers some education, some insights, but also just, you know, language. How can we show up and really live out some of these values, these radical values of communal care, of radical acceptance of love. So I think that maybe some of the more unlikely listeners have been like, men and partners. My dad listens. But I'm also like, it shouldn't be unlikely. Like, you should be listening. You have, you know, you are a parent yourself. You, my father wishes to be a grandparent one day. Like, these are things that you should be listening to. So I really feel like we center black birthing people, black women, black gender expansive people. But it's something that I think anybody can really get valuable insights from.
- [43:38]
A
So much of the conversation around black maternal health feels heavy, right? Like, it is a heavy topic because a lot has not gone right for black pregnant folks. But I also feel like there is a conversation to be had about how joy still exists in that place. And you've already talked about it. Like, there's some levity to your episodes too. And like, you know, black people are just kind of inherently funny. Like, we tell there's always joy because mixed with the pain. Right. So what role would you say joy has as a part of this story?
- [44:06]
B
That's a great question. It's always been important for us to share the full range of experiences. So we've never come at this as like, we're just here highlighting what's scary, what's negative, what's bad, and the trauma. Because while, like you said, those stories are very real, there are also people having beautiful and empowered and affirming experiences and receiving the care that they deserve and that we all deserve. And we need to highlight those people, those stories and the people who are providing that care and the people who are fighting for that care. And so I think that the joy is really guiding light for this work. You know, when we connect with birth workers, when we connect with organizers and advocates and providers, they bring joy to the conversation because they know what this could look like and what this should look like. And it's infectious. And so I think that we need the joy to keep us going. We need the joy because the joy is the goal, the joy is the destination, you know, and it's why we're here, because we want these experiences to be full of joy. And so it kind of has to be the thing that guides us forward.
- [45:21]
C
Couldn't have said that better myself. The thing that I just stood at is just joy is necessary for liberation. And yeah, it is the guiding light, truly, in many ways. And I think, you know, to Martina's point, even when we started with the first season, we were getting clear feedback from midwives, even from some mentors. There's obviously very clear data letting us know that black women are experiencing pregnancy related complications and mortality at far higher rates than other races here in the country. And on the other side of those numbers are also black birthing folks who are experiencing some of the most joyful and beautiful experiences of care. And so all of those stories deserve to be told. And so I think, and I think admittedly, with each season, we've gotten better with that balance. Again, to my point earlier, we were so afraid, you know, five years ago, I feel like baby versions of ourselves in many ways, but we were just so afraid to people who curious about pregnancy, curious about what this might look like for us, for friends of ours who were experiencing, whether it's egg freezing or miscarriages or really having trouble navigating postpartum. We were seeing sometimes the sort of sharpest edges of it, if you will. But I think in doing this work, I think it softened us in a lot of ways because it's necessary to hold space for all of it. And obviously we're trying to create new narratives that can kind of give birth to new systems of care. And obviously there are folks who are still, unfortunately, disproportionately so, just experiencing just terrible care, terrible care that does not center their well being, does not sort of value them as a human right. And so we are thinking a lot about continuing to lift up those stories and then also making sure folks know what's possible on the other end, what's possible with the reimagining and why the reimagining is so, so necessary to this work too.
- [47:15]
A
Beautiful. Thank you all so much for sharing that. So where can folks stay connected with you? Where can we find you online and where can we check out Natalie?
- [47:24]
B
Well, you can listen to Natal wherever you get your podcasts and you can follow Needle on Instagram and Twitter and you can also get our newsletter if you go to our website. You can sign up to subscribe and get updates that there natal stories.com.
- [47:43]
C
Everything'S natal stories.
- [47:44]
A
Yes, perfect. We'll be sure to include all of that in the Show Notes. Thank you all so much for spending some time with me today. I appreciate it.
- [47:51]
B
Thank you so much for having us.
- [47:53]
C
Thank you for having us, truly.
- [47:55]
A
Of course. I'm so glad Gabrielle and Martina were able to join me for this conversation to learn more about them and to check out the work they're doing at Nature Needle. Be sure to visit the show notes@therapyforblackgirls.com needle did you know you can leave a voicemail with your questions for the podcast? If you want to suggest movies or books for us to review or even if you have thoughts about topics you'd like to hear discussed, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@therapyforblackgirls.com directory this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyre Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. Until next time, take good care. Many of us play lots of different roles in life. Partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of therapy for Black girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the Club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [50:11]
B
This is an iHeart podcast.