← Therapy for Black Girls
Therapy for Black Girls
Session 401: A Conversation on Black Girlhood and Womanhood with Dr. Lauren Mims
00:50:11
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- [00:11]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining Me for session 401 of the therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. This is an iHeart podcast.
- [01:15]
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- [01:53]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan, Chase Bank, NA Member FDIC Subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [03:11]
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Parents of Tweens if you're familiar with far off drop offs.
- [03:14]
HPV Vaccination Ad Voice
Dad, stop.
- [03:14]
Dr. Lauren Mims
Stop.
- [03:14]
HPV Vaccination Ad Voice
Stop right here or get DMs about what's for dinner? You may be experiencing tween milestones for your son or daughter. These can start at age 9. HPV vaccination, a type of cancer prevention against certain HPV related cancers, can start then too.
- [03:28]
AT&T Sponsor Voice
For most, HPV clears on its own, but for you don't clear the virus. It can cause certain cancers later in life.
- [03:34]
HPV Vaccination Ad Voice
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- [03:45]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
When Kashan Thompson coined the term Black girl magic in 2013, it sparked a movement that celebrated Black women, girls and femmes, their resilience, beauty and power. And as amazing as the movement has been, 12 years later we find ourselves in an era of Black femme representation that still struggles in its delineation of Black women from Black girls. As the media examples dwindle and culture shifts, we here at Therapy for Black.
- [04:10]
Elise Ellis
Girls dare to ask, what even is Black girlhood?
- [04:14]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Joining me for this conversation is Dr. Lauren Mims, an assistant professor at NYU Steinhardt School. Her research focuses on how sociocultural stressors impact Black children's development and identifying strengths that can buffer the negative effects of bias and discrimination. She also served as an Assistant Director of the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans during the Obama administration. Exploring girlhood and womanhood through education, media, representation, psychology, and somehow even TikTok, Dr. Mims helps us better contextualize not only.
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Elise Ellis
What Black girlhood is, but how to.
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Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Empower young girls in helping us define it. This conversation is a continuation of our reflection on the past, present and future of Black girlhood and womanhood in celebration of 400 episodes of therapy for Black Girls.
- [05:03]
Elise Ellis
Very excited for you to hear this conversation.
- [05:06]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag tvginsession. Here's our conversation.
- [05:19]
Elise Ellis
Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Mims.
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Dr. Lauren Mims
Oh, I'm so excited. I am a Dr. Joy fan, so I'm so excited for us to get to talk.
- [05:28]
Elise Ellis
Yeah, I am too. So can you start by telling us a little bit about your background and what you do as a psychologist?
- [05:35]
Dr. Lauren Mims
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm currently a professor of Developmental psychology. I started in the field of developmental psychology because I felt like there was no one who was really focused and immersed in thinking about from the moment a Black Child wakes up to the moment they go to bed. What are the places, the spaces, the relationships that either help or hinder their ability to be their best selves? And so I really wanted to take this kind of whole child approach to understanding how to best support children's development. So I started off as a undergrad at the University of Virginia. I remember my textbooks, we had Culture Week, and that was when we learned about non white children. And I remember at the other end of my week, I would go to African American studies classes. And I remember I was so wrapped up in learning about the brilliance of black Americans throughout time. And I thought, huh, we really need to bridge these two. And thinking about black children's development and how we have this amazing history of surviving and thriving and how can we ensure take what we know about black history and black people's lives and use that to really transform the power and the possibilities and the potential for black children. And so I have been working to think about how to create pathways to thriving for black children and their families. And that's my journey. I took a small leave of absence during my PhD to serve as Assistant Director of the White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for. For African Americans during the Obama administration, which was amazing. I was able to really think about when we center black children's brilliance in the educational settings, then really looking and thinking about what do they need? And one of the things that we did there was bring black children into the space and ask black children what do they need to be supported in school spaces. And then work with administrators and policymakers to think about how do we enact those policies with that center black children, children's needs. And so that has been where I am. And now this kind of Virginia girl is here in big New York City, really focusing on thinking about black children's excellence.
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Elise Ellis
I love that. Thank you for that, Dr. Mims. So I'm curious to hear, what kinds of things did the children identify when you ask them? Like, what kinds of things do you need to be supported?
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Dr. Lauren Mims
I love that question. I think sometimes as adults we think, oh, more pizza parties or we want to have recesses longer. But they were really talking a lot about supports, kind of having their basic needs met. And so talking about things. We want to walk down the hallway and feel like our bodies are not policed, particularly for black girls. I remember one girl said when she would walk down the hallway, the way that she said, my hips swish naturally back and forth. And people would think that I had an attitude. And they would say, where are you going with all of that attitude? What are you doing? And she really wanted teachers to understand black girls and the unique experiences that they bring into the space from the way that they walk, the way that they talk, the way that they engage in the classroom, so that she didn't feel like she had to be someone else or that she was going to walk down the hallway to the bathroom and know that she would be stopped by every teacher who thought that she was doing something wrong, that she didn't have a pass. And so a lot of it was around really thinking about discipline conversations. So kind of rethinking discipline in those policies, as well as some of them said that there were not bathrooms, doors in the bathrooms and that their water fountains weren't working. They were really worried about nutritious access to meals. They said, you know, the pizza is really greasy. I would love for the pizza to change. And so I think that a lot of what they wanted echoes a lot of the things that we want for children, which we were talking to elementary and middle school children. And so I think when we give them the platform, they're really echoing some of the things that the hopes and goals and not just these kind of small, fun things, but, like, I will speak for them, they probably would want more recess. They don't want to get rid of pizza altogether. But a lot of the things they were talking about is, what does it mean to be a black student in this school, knowing that I may experience bias and discrimination just for being me? And I don't want that. I want teachers to see me and to affirm who I am in this space.
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Elise Ellis
Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think you have given us, like, a very poignant example and a reason why I really wanted to have this conversation about black girlhood. So the example that you shared about the little girl kind of walking through the hallway and her hip swishing and how adults often make one interpretation of things that kids do that is not at all accurate with the reality of what's happening. And it's often a misinterpretation with black girls. Right. Like, there's often these conduct or attitude lenses put on their behavior that is not at all accurate. Can you talk a little bit about, like, how that happens and, like, the impact that has on girls?
- [10:50]
Dr. Lauren Mims
Absolutely. So I think one of the biggest studies that I think a lot is about Georgetown. So the center on Gender justice and Opportunity, they released a study a couple of years ago that introduced this topic of adultification bias against black girls. And so when they were. In that study, they found that among those that they surveyed, adults actually perceived black girls to be less innocent, less needing of protection, less needing of nurturing, and that they were more. They were seen more adult like, than their peers. And this started as young as five. And so I think. I also think a lot about. There was a news story in the New York Times about a young little girl, and she was giggling. She was giggling and having a great time in class. And she was sent to the nurse's office, and she was actually searched for contraband because her joy. They thought her joy must have come from some type of drug. But I think for me, giggling is a core part of children's experiences. But adultification bias really takes that away from black girls because at that point, they were seen as kind of miniature black women. So, and this is not miniature Black women, it's from a negative perception, because all black women giggle as well. The idea that they must be knowledgeable about illicit drugs and they must be engaging in illicit drugs. And that's why we see this giggling instead of seeing black girls as black girls, as these kind of like learning, developing, thriving little girls that need support, valued to be valued and kind of being loved in all the ways that we want children to be. And so adultification bias really shapes how adults see children to the point where I just think a lot about the hip switching and the giggling and that you could police giggling and think that that joy is related to something like engaging in illicit drug activity in elementary school.
- [12:52]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
And I know that your work touches.
- [12:53]
Elise Ellis
On this, and there are so many other, like, brilliant researchers who are doing a lot around the adultification of black girls. Right. And really helping educators, I think, especially to look at, like, how this is impacting the way they are disciplining and teaching. Can you tell us a little bit about some of those practices and what educators and maybe other adults need to know about black girls?
- [13:13]
Dr. Lauren Mims
I think the first thing is to really think about that, really pausing when you think of black girls, what do you think of? And often I think the first intervention, I always say, is self reflection. So how do I see the students in my classrooms, particularly the black girls? Am I seeing them from what we call kind of an axiom of criminality? And so when am I looking at black girls in the classroom? When a pen drops is the first thing I do look over at the black students. And so a lot of kind of research has found eye gaze. When you prime teachers to say kind of what's wrong in the classroom, they tend to Stare more at black children than they do of children of other races. And so pausing and thinking, what was the last interaction that I had with a black girl in my classroom? Was it related to discipline? Was it related to talking about off task behavior? When did I kind of celebrate and affirm them? And I think even thinking about engaging in kind of that process of awareness and thinking about how am I showing up for the black girls in my classroom? And also taking it one step further and really thinking about doing an inventory. What does my classroom library look like? Where are black girls represented? When are we talking about black Americans? So some of my research has talked about in middle school. Some of the youth said when I asked them about where do you learn about race and where do you learn about being African American? They said history class, and it's around slaves. And they said whips and chains. That's the imagery that they see of black Americans in the school environment. And so I think engaging in practices where we're really taking an inventory of the ways that we are treating and nurturing black girls in our classroom, as well as thinking about how we are representing black girlhood, I think is a good first step that all teachers can engage in. And it's something that is incredibly meaningful that. So I remember when the first time that I read a black girl book in school, it was Warriors Don't Cry by Melba Pattillo Beals. And it was about school integration. And that was so meaningful to me to read in class and to have everybody have to read that book and to read about a black girl's experience, about how she wants to achieve academically, but how difficult it is because of the threats that she has. And she talks to her grandmother, encourages her to be her best self. And I just remember reading that as a required reading was incredibly meaningful to me because that was the first time I think that I had seen my black girlhood reflected as something that was important to history. And so I think that those are really important, not just kind of representation in the number of books you have, but that is one step further. And really thinking that was required reading and also being really, really careful during those interactions to shut down any instances of bias or kind of the, you know, giving people the language to have these conversations, providing spaces for you to have, but really being careful. You also don't want to traumatize young folks where they then have to hear about that's wrong with Melba or these kind of stereotyped language is used in the conversation. And so I think it's Important, too, but it can be really powerful. So I just remember my peers really talking about how brave she was and how they didn't know that these things were happening. And that was really. I think it was meaningful for me to see that other people were engaging in the history of the civil rights movement from the lens of a black girl. That was incredibly powerful when I was younger.
- [16:54]
Elise Ellis
So I have so many thoughts swirling, Dr. Mums. One of them is like, what is even rubric may not be the best word, but, like, what are we even talking about when we are talking about Black girlhood? So I'm thinking about, like, my own experience as a little black girl, right. I'm thinking about hand games and jump rope and, like, playing outside with friends and stuff. And it feels like girlhood and just childrenhood looks very different these days, I think, especially in the advent of technology. And I know that there are lots of initiatives to keep kids outside and, like, make sure that they are able to kind of still be kids. But it feels like there's a fight for that to happen. Right. And that so much is kind of along the backdrop of technology. So when we're talking about, like, Black girlhood, like, what does that even look like in 2025?
- [17:43]
Dr. Lauren Mims
What does Black girlhood look like in 2025? I would say the first answer is to ask black girls. I think so often as black adults, Black women, we sometimes either, you know, I love the idea that we don't know. I think that that is an important space for us to come into. And because I think that when we were black girls, our experience is different than black girls today. And so, so much of my research is asking those kind of basic questions. So tell me about what your day is like. Tell me about the things that you love. Tell me about the things that you dislike. Like, and I have learned so much about skincare is bigger. But also I think that when we think about Black girlhood, I've been thinking a lot about how it is not just adultification bias and the fact that we see them as older. I also think that because of the advent of technology, they're engaging in things that maybe we weren't thinking about or engaging in when we were that age. So I think that hand games are still wonderful and still fun, but I also think that when I talk to them, they're also talking about how do they cope with seeing the videos of the murder of George Floyd and thinking about young girls are kind of contending with that, as well as seeing ads of girls who are missing while they're also engaging on social media. And so I think that their childhood is different than ours in the fact that we have this information ecosystem that is reaching them. At ages that are younger than I think we, we started really thinking about some of the things that were occurring. And so I think that black girlhood is giggling, it's joy, it's sisterhood, but it is also, I think, focusing on learning how to cope with really difficult things that are happening to themselves or to the world. And I think that that's become an even bigger part of black girls journeys. A lot of the girls I talk to, when I ask them kind of what is it like growing up as a black girl? We are currently asking young folks to answer the question being a black youth today means and then just opening it to ask the first thing that comes to mind. And it's difficult. We hear things like, it's tough, it's scary, it's exhausting, it's a lot. And those are the first things that they are bringing up. And so I think that what I don't want to do is infantilize black girls and think that they're not little women. But they also are not as insulated from the societal ills as we may have seen in other time periods. I don't remember when I was younger, we didn't see these viral videos of police brutality. We would watch to the news, but the news was something that you could turn off when you use the Internet. The Internet tied up with the, with the phone. So you weren't on the Internet that long. There were kind of safeguards that were around. And so I think where we see a lot of black youth report that they are online almost constantly or most a lot of the day. And so I think that you see kind of an experience where you are walking through the world while also seeing the world move outside of your kind of your smaller ecosystem, broader than your neighborhood, broader than your school, broader than your peers. You can see other people you've never met before. And I think that that can be incredibly powerful. And so I think that there are young folks who I've talked to who actually are able to figure out who am I and what does it mean to be me in a way that's even more meaningful because they see other youth who share their interest and share their identities and they may be a thousand miles away because they can see those online. And that can be extremely validating. At the same time, we have seen experiences of vicurious witnessing racism online can cause post traumatic stress symptoms among young folks. They're anxious, they're frustrated, they're scared, they. They're hypervigilant. The things that they see online come with them into. Into their life as they're trying to figure out what does it mean to be me. And so I think that that's a different way to be a black girl is thinking about web throis, talking about the double consciousness. I think developing a double consciousness, you develop it a little bit earlier.
- [22:45]
Elise Ellis
Yeah. There's a part of me that feels very. Feel torn about that because you know it.
- [22:51]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Yes.
- [22:51]
Elise Ellis
Like, there is no. Really, like, taking them away from technology. Right. Because it infiltrates so much of their lives. But it does feel like it has really kind of stripped this, like, ability for kids to be kids, which I think adds to this adultification piece that we often see impacting black girls.
- [23:09]
Dr. Lauren Mims
I agree. Over the summer, for the past six years, I've taught Black Girl Power Hour, and it's a fun class. I go to Richmond, Virginia, girls for a change, and I work with the elementary, but mostly middle schoolers. One of the things we do is I work with them first to kind of look at books and read books steeped from black women and girls who have written those books and learn about the ways that they're writing about their experience. And then they start writing and podcasting about their own experience. And it's given me a great window into seeing some of the things that black girls are thinking about, because I tell them a podcast, you can do it by yourself or you can do it with somebody else. And you can pick whatever topic you want. And I'm going to limit it to five minutes. And I want you to share something. You can either talk to adults or you can talk to other black girls. And the topics they pick are both exciting and also they make me pause, mostly because I think a lot about the concept that Jeronimus came up with in terms of weathering and thinking about what does it look like? Like, do we see weathering occurring younger? So they will talk about one of the things that Nadia said she did a podcast on black girls childhoods. And one of the things she said is she said, right now, black girls don't get a childhood. Instead of worrying about where they're going to go for a sleepover, they're worried about whether themselves and their parents are going to come home. Okay. And I think that that really talks about the shift that they see. They know what childhood could look like, and they know the childhood that they're living. And so she says, you know, we need to be the change, we need to start the change. It's for us to start. And so really thinking about we want to build conscious like folks who are going to change the world, but also knowing that developmentally like they're still changing mentally, their brain is still developing and we want to make sure that they are given these identity affirming experiences and nurtured and supported while also I think being mindful that they are starting to deal with some really, really heavy topics at younger ages.
- [25:27]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
More from our conversation after the break.
- [25:36]
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- [26:47]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work, earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women with flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you're booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's Most Captivating Destinations When I travel somewhere, I'm typically determined to try the best local pizza and find the best spa experience. With Chase Sapphire Reserve you have access to everything from private dinners hosted by award winning chefs to VIP treatment at the most sought after events. Chase Sapphire Reserve allows you to take advantage of one of a kind experiences while earning three times points on dining worldwide. No matter your destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase sapphire reserve@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply.
- [28:20]
AT&T Sponsor Voice
Parents of Twins if you're familiar with far off drop offs dad, stop.
- [28:24]
Dr. Lauren Mims
Stop.
- [28:24]
HPV Vaccination Ad Voice
Stop right here or get DMs about what's for dinner. You may be experiencing Twitter milestones for your son or daughter. These can start at age 9. HPV vaccination, a type of cancer prevention against certain HPV related cancers, can start then too.
- [28:38]
AT&T Sponsor Voice
For most, HPV clears on its own, but for those who don't clear the virus, it can cause certain cancers later in life.
- [28:44]
HPV Vaccination Ad Voice
Embrace this phase. Help protect them in the next. Ask their doctor today about HPV vaccination brought to you by Merck.
- [28:53]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
So I.
- [28:53]
Elise Ellis
Chuckled when you mentioned the skin care comment because I think that that is what we've seen a lot of, right? Like you know, they're spending time in like Ulta and Sephora and like here's my makeup.
- [29:03]
Dr. Lauren Mims
Get ready with me.
- [29:04]
Elise Ellis
So what other kinds of things have they shared with you in your research about like how they're spending their days?
- [29:11]
Dr. Lauren Mims
One of the things I think has been really interesting is a lot of them are also thinking about what does it mean to be healthy and health converse health related conversations. So one of the students did a podcast about being vegan and really thinking about what that looks like. Another one talked about endorphins and exercise and how it made them feel good. I thought that that was so great. They also the other things they did, they talked a lot about what does it mean to be a black girl in a school that's predominantly white. And so many choose to talk about that and both the difficulties as well as what would be supportive. And so they talk about again, going back to the story of the girl walking down the hallway. A lot of them talk about that they walk down their own hallways and that they are greeted not for who they are but the stereotypes that kind of surround black girls. And so this idea of thinking about they're not being referred to for gifted programming. They often feel like that their identity is being questioned in the spaces that they occupy. And so we see a lot about that. But also the power of teachers I hear a lot about, and I think when we think about our favorite teachers, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's a school of amazing teachers. But, like, shout out to the teachers who are creating spaces for black girls to try and figure out what is going on with my life. Sometimes they're just opening their door in between periods, and it's someone who says, oh, the teacher, she stands outside and she waves and she says, like, hey, Rach, how are you doing? Have a good day today? And that warms my heart because she sees me. Other times, it's that teacher who is teaching that class beyond the way that it's supposed to be taught. She starts with the textbook and then remixes with mentor texts and really ensures that everyone in the classroom feels like their experiences are reflected. And so I've heard a lot about the power of teaching. Teachers also think about the power of families. And so I know that as a developmental psychologist, we talk about and specifically thinking about adolescents, we talk about how adolescents part of the development that's happening. And I won't get too brain sciencey if we want to get as brain science, we can. But in thinking about, there's this perception that they move away from family and kind of shift to have a huge importance of peers. And that while that is true, they also talk about how great it is to have their family. And so talking about the kitchen table or the conversations they have. And so I think that our teenagers still, they still need us. They still need us when they're adolescents. They still see the power of really strong relationships with their family. And so they talk about that. They talk about the relationship that they've cultivated with their mother as being something that's really positive. But a lot of them do talk about police brutality as well. And a lot of kind of thinking about whether that's local community area violence that they have witnessed or heard about or just kind of these nationally publicized viral videos of instances of murders that make them feel like a sense of who do I trust? Who are the people I turn to? And so I think that that's really important. But also I think the last thing I'll say is the developmentally appropriate things of adolescence. So the biggest thing you're trying to figure out during adolescence is who am I? What does it mean to be me? What's going on in my body? And I think that at that point, rejection can be peers. Peers are important. And so experiencing rejection or trying to make friends. Two of my young podcasters wrote about how to make friends, and they did podcasts for other black girls on making friends and not being scared to reach out. And I think some of that reminds me a bit of they also. A lot of young folks grew up in the shadows of a pandemic where they were sitting for five years in their. Five years ago, they were sitting in their little offices and zooming. And so when they reintegrated, we reintegrated and put them back into classrooms. And so for young kids who were in elementary school and then puberty started and then they jump back into the school building, they have to think about, wow, wait, I look different. People look different because of kind of brain development, heightened sensitivity and awareness of the stuff that's going on. It's a big deal.
- [33:50]
Elise Ellis
Yeah. So I really appreciate you bringing up the idea of identity. Right. Because that is, like, the thing that's happening in much of, you know, our childhoods. And so much, I think, of how we figure out, like, who we are and like, who we are in the world is connected to media. And so there have been all these conversations around, like, where are black girls showing up in media? So we already talked a little bit about social media, but in the larger landscape of, like, things we see on TV or on streaming, it feels like there is, like, a lack of black girls present. Can you talk a little bit about that?
- [34:21]
Dr. Lauren Mims
There's definitely a lack of black girl protagonists, because I think if we think about distinguishing between black girls and black women, we've seen some fierce, strong black leads. Black women in these kind of leading roles, really thinking about Black girls, even 15 and under, there are very few current running movies or television that features black girls. I'm a bit nervous about what you are talking about, the disappearance. And so I think when media does play a role in thinking about these messages in the world around you, what do I see and how does that relate to who I am and how do I reconcile those? Are the messages congruent or discordant from what I know? And so I think when we don't see media that features black girls, then we're really missing out on an opportunity to elevate their narratives. I think it would be so cool to have a black girl in, let's say, New York City just going about her life, like her experiences in schools, her experience making friends. But you see and you feel how stressed she is when she's going to make that friend, or how she is really stressed about school and how Then putting in this kind of intervention component. How does she cope with that? Like, what are these, like, really cool coping strategies that we could infuse into some of these narratives? So then they can say, hey, there is an upsurge of media that is being created by black girls that focuses on their experiences. And so I think that there are a good number of YouTube channels where you can kind of get ready with me. I love some. A good get ready with me. They're doing their skincare and they're like, okay, so let's talk about. And it's some very heavy topic. But like, I'm listening because like, not only are you and then you're, you know, showing me the different type of makeup while also informing on things that are what's happening in your life. And so I think there are some black girl YouTubers or thinking about TikTok as a platform for kind of short form narratives that are happening. And so I think when we think expansively about media, I don't think that there is an all out disappearance of black girls in kind of the media landscape, but I do think in terms of television, it is really, really important for us to think about amplifying the narratives of black girls. Yeah.
- [36:57]
Elise Ellis
And I think that that is something you hear kind of even on a larger scale related to black women's media. Right. Like, there are plenty of things that grounded in, okay, I'm the only one. And what is it like to navigate racism and all of these things, but like it's also okay to just have media that just shows everydayness. Right. Like just getting together with friends or going to work or whatever. I think the same thing for. For girls.
- [37:18]
Dr. Lauren Mims
Yeah.
- [37:19]
Elise Ellis
Yeah.
- [37:19]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
More from our conversation after the break. Many of us play lots of different roles in life. Partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree holder. That's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work, earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of therapy for black girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you're booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I travel somewhere, I'M typically determined to try the best local pizza and.
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Elise Ellis
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Dr. Lauren Mims
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- [39:34]
Elise Ellis
So Dr. Mims, it has been a while since I have taken a developmental psych class. So I remember like learning about all of these theories like Piaget stuff and like Erickson stuff, stuff I'd love for you to share with me, like what newer research is there around? Because of course all of that was not based on black kids, right? So what research is there now? Maybe research you're doing or other colleagues around, like developmental models for black kids and what it does look like for black kids to thrive.
- [40:02]
Dr. Lauren Mims
So good, so good. So there's the Society for Research on Child Development and there's a Black Caucus. And so, so that Black Caucus has a couple hundred strong now as well as the association. The APA associate has kind of really thinking about centering the black experience. And so I think that there are more people now than ever, but I also think we still have some more work to go to really thinking about. It's important, I think to have models that are adapted, but it's different than having models that are grounded in Black children's experience. And so thinking about this is for Black youth. And so I think two of the ones that I use in my research and that I love are the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory, which is called P Vess. And it sounds very fancy but Dr. Spencer crafted that. This is a good story. I'm going to put this here because it leads into why the theory is so relevant. And so I think a lot of people, when we think about developmental psychologists, maybe people who haven't taken a developmental psychology class actually probably know some developmental psychology. So a lot of people are familiar with Mamie Phipps Clark's work on the doll study. And so really thinking about she asked the question on thing and black children, she says which one is the good doll and which one is the bad doll. And then black children when they white and a black doll. And black children were likely to choose the black doll when the interviewer asked who's the bad doll? And the white doll when asked who is the good doll. And so that served as the impetus for Brown v. Board of Education and the idea that separate but equal was inherently unequal and harmful to children. And so that's kind of thinking about Brown v. Board of Education was a big kind of developmental scholarship. But I was super fascinated by that. But then theory wise, Spencer comes in and she came in in 1976. This is my favorite fun fact. That's why I But she replicated the study as part of her dissertation. And what she found was that again that black children were choosing the white doll when asked which ones were the good dollar and that they were choosing the black doll when asked which one were the bad doll. But when she actually talked to them about their own self esteem, Black preschool children actually maintained a healthy self esteem. And so basically this idea is that black children, what she finds is black children, they can report what they observe and so what they hear, but they actually don't internalize it in the early years. And so then the question and the reason that the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory comes into play is it's a reminder that black children are not just sponges taking in all of the messages in their lives and then just internalizing them and that making that part of who they are. What she's saying in the theory is that actually due to their identities, they're more likely to as black children, they're more likely to experience bias and discrimination as a result of racism. But that will lead to and that increases the likelihood that they'll experience stress. We know that racism caused stress. When somebody, when you're walking with a plate of cookies like I was the other day, and the person didn't leave the door open, then it caused a little stress. But what she says is at that point, that experience of stress does not necessarily mean that that's going to lead to negative life outcomes. I am going to see that stressful thing happening, and I am going to make meaning of it. So children are interpreting, what does this experience mean? And so when they've had things like conversations with their family about being proud to be black, as well as conversations about that, you may experience bias in the world because of the biases that society has around black Americans. When something like that happens, then they cannot say, like, there must be something wrong with me, or like, she didn't see me, or I must not be important to hope for someone to hold the door. They can say, oh, like, what a discriminant that is an experience of, you know, racism. Like, why wouldn't they keep that? And so then you actually are preserving your sense of who you are, and you can make meaning of the situation. And so then this phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory is this idea then, that in that experience of stress, then you can utilize coping strategies. And so you can say, that person didn't open the door because they hold biases, or that person maybe they didn't notice me. Then kind of think about, for me, it's to go to the group chat, that's my coping, and say, guys, yeah, did you see this thing that happened? And then they say, oh, that's so silly. And then I move forward, I exhale, and I continue my day. And so I don't immediately internalize that as saying that there's something wrong with me. And so the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory is a good way to understand children's learning and development, that they are confronted with stress. But they're always making meaning of what that stress looks like. And when the presence of social support and some of those kind of coping assets, then they can, they can continue to positively develop. And it doesn't necessarily kind of derail their sense of who they are in the world. And so I really love the phenomenological variant ecological systems theory. And then the second one is Velma Murray. She talks about ordinary black family magic, which I think is amazing. And so she talks about thinking about that due to the phenomenological variant of ecological systems theory, but similar to the vestiges of slavery, really impact us from where we live, what we eat, the laws that are on the books. And so those things may increase the likelihood for negative outcomes, such as kind of thinking about economic insecurity, food insecurity, living in a place that you don't have access to high quality health care. But what she talks about is that one of the things that buffers or Kind of shields black children from the kind of negative experiences of living in kind of a racially stratified society is ordinary black family magic. And so she says things like the kinship support. So, like other mothering or mothering provides great benefits. Or thinking about leaning into this strong kind of black sisterhood that we have. That's a form. She talks about spirituality. And so spirituality, whatever that looks like and however that is defined, can buffer or shield those kind of experiences. And it's almost reminds me of glitter. And so if you've ever used glitter before, it's like, I will do a project, and then 10 days later, I will still find pieces of glitter. I have showered every. Every one of those 10 days. And yet that glitter sticks. I think a lot about ordinary black family magic. And some of these coping things, they stick to you like glitter. And so when you're in that experience, when where something happens, then you still are stuck with those positive things that have happened. They have kind of provided you with a boost to be able to cope with whatever that thing is. And so a lot of our work is thinking about what's that glitter? What's the residual stuff that's helping kids thrive. And it's a lot of what we already know. It's the things that, for us, are really powerful. I think that when we take a developmental approach, though, we know that how we interpret those things may be different. So thinking about when we are kind of moving from our littlest learners, who are kind of very. At this point, they are able to report, but not internalize because a lot of their thoughts are a little egocentric. They're around me. I love that they love themselves. They love themselves. But once we see a second period. So there's kind of zero to three, we know in the brain world is a huge period for learning and development. The brain is, like, amazing things are happening. As somebody who focuses a lot on adolescence, we actually see a second critical period for that same kind of activity. So developmentally, when we're thinking about young adolescent brains, this is around starting at 10, kind of, or even as early as 8, because we know that for black girls, puberty is the. In across the nation, puberty is starting earlier. But for black girls, it's starting much earlier. And so thinking about this might be something that catalyzes AD8 at the start of. But what we know is that when we think about the young adolescent brain, that's a second period of critical development. And so when we're thinking about those experiences of stress, we are thinking about Those experiences of stress in a brief brain that is also developing and is actually more sensitive to that stress. And so what we see, like the ideas of the connections between nerve cells, they're proliferating, which basically means that, like, the connections between different neurons are forming in response to new experiences fast. And these unused neural connections, they're being discarded so the brain can work more efficiently. Like, we only have so much space up here. And so we also know there's this continued process of what they call kind of myelination. So this communication, it's almost like the covering and it speeds up communication between neurons. And so we see continued myelination. So we see the kind of malleable that the brain is changing. And one of the ways that we see a changing in adolescents, in a time where I think we are thinking about what would the absence of media look like? Because it's not that they're not engaging with media, it's just that there's not black girl centered media. And also thinking about them. And their peers are also kind of trying to figure out then without the absence of thinking about that, there's a really cool Gabrielle wash day type thing for those who are kind of trying to figure it out. Between the 8 and 15 age, they're more attuned to that social information because of their kind of cognitively. And so then during adolescence, developmentally, they are more attuned to social information. They are more sensitive to rewards than ever before. And so this is sometimes where we kind of give adolescents a bad rap. I'm here to say that I love adolescents. We don't have to talk about them as being these risk takers, but it is this idea that there are kind of when the kind of they have an activated reward center of their brain is kind of more active. And so then they are becoming kind of more sensitive to social evaluation. So they may engage in what we consider more risky behavior because there's more reward. Like, having a really great friend feels even better. Like, that's so great, right? Like, I love my friends and they make me feel great and I just can't. I'm like, wow. And they feel even greater when you're adolescents. But at the same time, then that can be more devastating when you have things like friend breakups or conflict. And so I think when I. When they're trying to figure out kind of, that helps with this overall goal of trying to figure out developmentally, like, who am I and what does it mean to be me? The brain is doing something right. Right. It's thinking about. They're more attuned to helping you figure out the answer to that. But at the same time, it means those like unsupportive contexts or the really damaging media that we may see that are talking about black girls in ways that don't represent their actual experience. They could be particularly harmful in adolescence. But a lot of my work focuses on thinking about either creating or looking at how meaningful space is for this kind of. Of identity exploration can have really like enhanced that learning, that curiosity and feel really good. Because I know for me it feels really good to be. Have a really strong group of friends or to go to a program in New York City and everybody. That panel is so great. And they're talking about things and you just feel really cool. And so thinking about for adolescents very similarly, like they feel that sense same joy and reward. And so when we think about kind of where do we go moving forward or how do we support black girls and adolescents is really thinking about. If it is high reward, then it is also high opportunity that exists to really thinking about infusing narratives, whether that be a conversation that you have with your young person and the car on the way to soccer, even though they're like, mom, come on, I just want to get to soccer. Those little things can stick with them. We're doing this study right now where they're reading a book and the book talks about. It's called the light she feels inside and she's going throughout the day and her light kind of a glow in the book, she shows different colors. And afterwards, my doc student Elisha and I are having parents talk with their kids around kind of what, when she had a red glow, what was she feeling? Angry. Okay, well, when was the last time you felt angry? Like, let's have those conversations. And so that book and kind of other books and engaging in those conversations and making those meaningful across all ages chapter books. Similarly, I think that young folks will, whether we see sometimes they're not going to let you know that that conversation might feel like that was kind of cringy, mom. Like, but it may be the thing that's glitter later on when they hear like, oh, we had that great conversation about how our hair and our history and they're like, okay, mom, I'm just wearing my hair like this. But then when somebody says like, why is your hair like this like this? Then they can say, well, you know, actually my hair is like this. And they repeat the same thing that they maybe didn't let you know that they heard and appreciated but then it's this idea of thinking about kind of fortifying and surrounding adolescents, particularly black girls, with these positive and affirming narratives. Wherever we can find them, wherever we can create them or giving them the mic to create, create them themselves can be something that we can see that's most really, really helpful in adolescence as this kind of rewards and that the increased sensitivity as well as we see these kind of like rapid brain development and thinking about like what are these brain building experiences that are supportive, they can feel good and they can be really helpful for kids development. So hopefully that's like a development primer.
- [55:34]
Elise Ellis
It is very helpful to me as the mom of an 11 year old. Also you're making me feel much better about my cringe. Genius.
- [55:40]
Dr. Lauren Mims
There you go. You are building her brain.
- [55:44]
Elise Ellis
Well, it's a boy, but I'm still applying some of these same principles for sure. For sure. So this has been so incredible, Dr. Williams. I really feel like you have given us some great context and some great places to kind of move forward in really creating these affirming spaces for black girls. So tell us where we can stay connected with you. What is your website as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?
- [56:07]
Dr. Lauren Mims
So I am on Instagram, so I am at Dr. Lauren Mims. My lab is at the Home Place Lab. Highly recommend following the lab. We have kind of emerging studies but we also find it really important so folks don't have to read 30 pages of research articles. We try to put those into six slides and thinking about how to support children's development. How else take care of your own mental health. And then you can find me on NYU's website as well as if you google the homeplace lab then both of those will be googleable. So thank you.
- [56:44]
Elise Ellis
We'll be sure to include that in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time with me today, Dr. Mims.
- [56:49]
Dr. Lauren Mims
Thank you so much for having me. You are incredible, phenomenal and I am just happy to be here.
- [56:56]
Elise Ellis
Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.
- [57:01]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
I'm so glad Dr. Mims was able.
- [57:03]
Elise Ellis
To join me for this conversation.
- [57:04]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
To learn more about her and her work, visit the show notes at therapy for black girls.com session 401 and don't.
- [57:11]
Elise Ellis
Forget to text this episode to two.
- [57:13]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Of your girls right now. Did you know you can leave us a voice note with your questions for the podcast?
- [57:19]
Elise Ellis
If you want to suggest movies or.
- [57:20]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Books for us to review or even.
- [57:22]
Elise Ellis
Have thoughts about topics you'd like to.
- [57:24]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
Hear us discussions, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for Black Girls.
- [57:29]
Elise Ellis
And let us know what's on your mind.
- [57:30]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
We might just answer your question on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@therapyforblackgirls.com directory this episode was produced by Elise Ellis and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining.
- [57:48]
Elise Ellis
Me again this week.
- [57:49]
Dr. Joy Harden Bradford
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care Many of us play lots of different roles in life partner, employee, caregiver. And many of us also think about another role that could take our life where we want it to be. Degree Holder that's where National University comes in. They've been busy since 1971 creating more ways for you to work earning a degree into your hectic life. NU confers more graduate degrees to diverse populations than any other institution in the country, with more than half being earned by women. With flexible online formats, NU makes higher education possible and achievable for busy working adults. Learn more today at nu.edu. this episode of Therapy for Black Girls is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Whether you are booking your next trip or a weekend escape, Chase Sapphire Reserve is your gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When you use your Chase Sapphire Reserve card, you get eight times points on all purchases made through Chase Travel and even access to one of a kind experiences like music festivals and sports events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets you into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more@chase.com Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase vacant a member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This is an iHeart podcast.