C (2:50)

No one knows what the future holds, but you deserve a weather app that can help. Weatherbug is easy to use and provides forecasts for your every need, from storm warnings to pollen levels right at your fingertips. Get the fastest local Alerts and comprehensive 10 day forecasts wherever you are. Its hyperlocal real time customizable alerts. Make sure the weather never takes you by surprise so you can plan every day with confidence. Download the free Weatherbug app from the App Store today and start Getting accurate weather forecasts 24. 7.

A (3:23)

The ability to express ourselves through speech remains one of the most important ways we communicate. It's at the root of how we connect, understand each other and even how we explore our own identities. From childhood, we learn that what we say and how we're able to say it can impact how we move through the world. Speech pathologists help those of us who experience challenges in expressing our thoughts and processing language. And as important as this work is, there are still disparities in who receives care. A recent study from 2024 found that Black patients are about 13% less likely to receive speech language pathology services than white patients, even after accounting for differences in health and demographic factors. That's why I'm excited to welcome Dr. Dawn Ellis. She's a speech language pathologist, advocate and educator whose journey led her to a career helping children, families and communities communicate with confidence. In this conversation we explore language development, identity and how communication intersects with mental health, particularly for Black women and families. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG incession or join us over in our Patreon to talk more about the episode. You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com here's our conversation.

B (4:45)

Hi Dr. Ellis, thank you so much for joining us today.

D (4:48)

Hi, thank you for having me.

B (4:50)

Yeah, it's a pleasure to chat with you. So can you start by telling us about your journey in speech and language pathology and what drew you to this field?

D (4:59)

Sure. So when people ask this question, I think about my cotillion book that in there under my picture I had listed I wanted to be a child physiologist. Not sure what that is, but fast forward to going to college. I was accepted into Cal State Fresno, and when my parents got there to drop me off, they said they had their quota of black students. The letter hadn't reached them yet and so I could not enroll. I couldn't stay, and so I'm not sure. And I would tease my mom how this happened, but on the way home they stopped at Bakersfield College and they knew that they had dorms and they had a space. Someone didn't show up in the dorms and so they left me there and they were like oh, we'll get her enrolled and all of her aid and everything will transfer because it was a state school. And so my work study job was in the handicapped service center, and I was assigned to the speech language pathologist.

B (6:02)

Wow.

D (6:03)

And so I always say, God makes no mistakes. And so then I finished my two years there and transferred to Cal State University Northridge, where I got my bachelor's in communicative sciences and disorders, and then on to Howard University, where I got my master's at my doctorate.

B (6:21)

Wow, that is quite a story. I love that it has come full circle for you and clearly has been a field that you have thrived in. So what did you intend to major in when you were going to college?

D (6:31)

I knew I wanted to work with children. And so like I said, I don't know what a physiologist was, what I put in that, or answered that question, but probably I was thinking psychology. I was probably thinking child psychology, but I knew I wanted to work with children. So at Howard, they had a grant from Department of Ed office special ed program, which is another full circle moment, because I later in my career, I became one of the competition managers for that program at Department of Ed, but it was specializing in 0 to 5. So that was when the law had changed the Individuals with Disabilities Education act, where it went down to age 0. So it started from at 3 to 21 and the law had changed. And so what Department of Ed put out programs, which I now know to make sure that people are trained both what we call pre service, which is at the university level, and in service, which would be what you're a professional, and getting like continuing education units. But through my master's, I was trained in pediatrics, so we had to take 12 more units and have more clinical hours in that birth to 5 population.

B (7:49)

Got it. And so what does a typical day look like for you as a speech language pathologist?

D (7:54)

Yeah, so now it's a little different from the work that I do, but I have a private practice, and I'm also associate director of technical assistance center. So my private practice, I mainly my caseload is with individuals with developmental. With intellectual and developmental disabilities. So I see some clients via telehealth and home health. And at home health, the clients can be in their natural home with their parent or guardian, or they could live in supportive living, like a group home. So I try to focus, like one specific day for doing home health when I'm out in the community, going into the homes to see clients, and then I have virtual clients, you know, via telehealth and some clients that I see via telehealth. I also, I do like a hybrid model, so I make sure that I see them like once a quarter or once a month in person. So that's pretty much like a typical day. In between that, there's a lot of planning, there's billing, there's. I do service work, so I do a lot of service work with my national professional organization. So I may I sit on a committee right now I'm on the committee of ambassadors with the American Speech Language and Hearing association, and I am the speech language pathologist representative for the District of Columbia. So in that there's a lot of work, just doing advocacy work. And then I'm also the associate director of dream, which is a national technical assistance center that supports minority serving institutions, including HBCUs and tribal colleges, to help them write applications and build capacity to get federal funds to train personnel under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

A (9:44)

Beautiful.

B (9:45)

You're a very busy woman.

D (9:46)

Oh, yeah. I get to do a lot of things that I love to do and that have just built upon my experience over the years.

B (9:55)

So I feel like I've only, I think, historically heard about speech and language pathologists as a part of like elementary school, but clearly the work that you do spans much later into life as well. So you've already talked about working in schools, having a private practice. What other kinds of career paths might a speech language pathologist be able to explore?

D (10:15)

Sure. And that's a great question. So I think about my own career path where I started working in schools in early intervention, which is in community based settings, going into home, also at daycares in hospitals. So that's some of the places that you can work. Hospitals, rehabilitation in the home. I've been on faculty both at Oklahoma State University and Gallaudet University, also adjuncts here in the area like Howard University and District of Columbia. And also I worked for a national professional association, the American Speech, Language and Hearing association, where I worked in their research department, where I was the director and manager of federal funds, which gave me federal experience. And, and then working, you know, in federal service for the government, living here in the District of Columbia. I had the mindset that I wanted to work in all of these because there are some really unique opportunities being here in the nation's capital. So I wanted to touch all of those. And so I felt like I was successful doing that. But you could be in academia. You can work at the university level as a faculty member or a clinical educator, where you Are supervising students doing, like, practicum, because usually the university settings have a speech and hearing clinic where scholars or students get their experience first in the clinic before going out to, like, a practicum site. There's just so many opportunities and different settings that people can work in. I have friends that are colleagues in private practice that also work with, say, actors on modification of a dialect for a role in a movie. There are some that work in the corporate setting that may want to help people communicate better. That's a job that's more of an elective. It's not a deficit, but it's something that corporations may want to offer as a benefit to people and just not to accent or dialect reduction, but also just to be an overall better and more effective communicator.

B (12:38)

So, Dr. Ellis, what are some of the common speech and language and communication disorders that we might be both familiar with, but maybe some that we also aren't familiar with?

A (12:47)

Yes.

D (12:47)

So when we talk about speech, we think of production, articulation, motor planning, voice fluency. All of those fall under speech and talk about familiarity versus non familiar. One of the things we like to talk about, fluency, which most people may know as stuttering. We don't like to use that term because we don't want to label individuals, but mainly refer to the characteristic of the speech, which is a disruption in the flow. So we talk about fluency disorders when we think of receptive language, what we understand, expressive language, you know, what we're able. Our words, our grammar, our sentences. Then there's vocabulary, grammar, and pragmatics, which is more social communication and how you use the language in a social context. And then communication overall, social communication. We can talk about alternative and assistive devices, augmentative and alternative devices. That's part of communication. So people that may use a device to communicate and then cognitive communication, memory and attention, executive function and. And multimodal communication, sign language, people using gestures, body language. Those are some of the areas that communication could be effective. And people might seek out a speech language pathologist.

B (14:12)

Yeah, so such a wide variety. Right. And I think when you hear it broken down that way, you realize, like, how many parts there are to speech and communication. So maybe we just start with like, fluency. Right. Which you talked about used to be known as stuttering, but the more appropriate term now is a fluency concern. When you talk about fluency, is this typically a physiological kind of concern? Is it more social, emotional? Like, what is typically the cause of a fluency concern?

D (14:39)

Yeah, it can be all of the above are parts of that. So I think about when we look at children, children can, in the developmental stages of language, especially at ages like 3 and 4, their receptive language always exceeds expressive. So children are going to understand what more than they're able to get out. And so when they're trying to get all their thoughts together and express that, sometimes they know what they want to say, but they don't have the words. They can't put it into words. And that might sound disfluent to a parent. So often we get, oh, my child's stuttering. You know, so first the thing is like, okay, let's, you know, we counsel parents, like, we want to talk about the characteristics and not label it. You don't want to call attention to it, because then that makes the child self conscious about it. And, you know, let's give it time for maturation, for development. And you may see those disfluencies go away. You know, be a good. Model yourself as slowing down your speech and helping them find the words by just modeling those words, not scolding or shaming someone about not being able to get their words out. But then we can see where there could be an issue as time develops in age and a person may still have those disfluencies. Sometimes it could be related to trauma, like adverse childhood experiences. Not all the time, but it can be, you know, something comes up, you saw something, or you get in a situation where you feel stressed. So therefore, and it could be a stressful environment. And then it develops more into a pattern. And then we see adults that as you get older, the individual has maintained those patterns and may need to seek therapy for just ways to modify and to control that. And sometimes that also involves counseling, especially if there's some trauma. Identify with how a person may have begun to have some disfluencies.

A (16:55)

More from our conversation after the break.

C (17:02)

I used to feel so guilty handing over the tablet just to get things done. We all do. But honestly, I switched to lingokids. The guilt is gone and the kids are obsessed.

D (17:12)

Really? Do they actually like it?

C (17:14)

Oh, they love it. It's all games, music lessons and stories. They think they're just playing, but I know they're safe from weird ads and junk.

D (17:21)

Mom, look. I'm flying into space.

C (17:25)

See, they're happy, I'm happy.

E (17:28)

Mango, kids, everything kids love. Download the app for free.

A (17:32)

I'm Dr. Joy from the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist asks, do you have any questions? And suddenly your mind goes blank. That's exactly why you need to listen to beyond the Script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, a board certified psychiatrist and health educator, this show takes you behind the counter to answer the questions you wish you'd asked. Like which medications might not mix well, what vaccines you should consider before a big trip, and even those questions you were too embarrassed to say out loud. Each episode busts myths, decodes health trends and gives you real trustworthy advice from the experts you see most your neighborhood CVS pharmacists. No white coats, no lectures. Just real talk, real answers and maybe a few laughs. Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. From visionary creator Kenya Barris comes Big Age, the hilarious and heartwarming Audible original comedy about love, aging and finding your way in life's next chapter. Big Age follows recently retired couple Dot and Butch Watts in their reluctant relocation to their new Florida home, Sunset Gardens, a senior community that is anything but relaxing. In the community, Dot and Butch encounter a parade of unforgettable personalities who push their 50 year marriage to the limit. There's Butch's flirtatious ex flame Ethel, spiritually possessed neighbors, pesky pill pushing couples and the ferociously competitive Stevenator. Through its blend of outrageous comedy and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com bigageseries to start listening today. As you step into a new year, you're probably thinking about all the things you can do to truly make this the year of you. If earning a degree has been on your mind, National University has your back. They understand the realities of busy working professionals like you in their flexible online formats. Four and eight week courses and monthly class starts help you fit school into your life, not the other way around. And Right now, National University's Year of Use Scholarship offers up to $6,000 annually for eligible bachelor's and master's students who apply by March 31st. Make this the year of you at NU. Learn more today at NU. Edu.

B (20:06)

Are there particular concerns that you feel like are often misdiagnosed or overlooked, especially in the black community? When we're thinking about speech and language and communication disorders.

D (20:15)

Yeah, just acceptance awareness. So under a lot of times people aren't aware of a speech language pathologist and people think about speech only but they don't think about the language part or the cognitive and how all that works together. So when we look in the school setting there are research and you can look like there may be an over diagnosis or over representation of black children in special ed programs. But also there's some research that suggests that there is an under identification of people of color with speech and language disorders. Because when you look at individuals that are incarcerated, often there is some evidence that there is a disability, whether it's diagnosed or undiagnosed, that there's something going on there. So there's two schools of thought there, you know, and both could be true in different contexts at the same time. But I think just the awareness and the acceptance that my child may need to get help. And we're talking about children here because on the adult side, there are things that happen like stroke, closed head injury, traumatic brain injury, which then you're in a medical setting where these services, speech, OT or PT are presented to you based upon your needs. But when we're talking about children and youth, sometimes there's acceptance. There's also, I think we're coming out of this, the stigma associated with someone that may have a disability, that a communication disorder is part of this. And I was just thinking about yesterday, I was in New York and I saw purpose and there was. There's some underlying issues in the play about people not being diagnosed, about neural divergence and wanting to keep that hush, hush about what my child may be experiencing. So I think there's that shame sometimes in that stigma. But the more that we're aware, the more that there's awareness of individuals across the board with disabilities, the more acceptance there is and the more acceptance there is to get help and not feel that shame. Because my child is not perfect. So I kind of want to keep it hush. And I saw I was a Girl Scout leader and when my kids were younger and I would have parents that would not want to identify and they didn't have to. That was their choice. But being in the field, it's like I knew how to deal with that. But other leaders, when it's not identified, may not. And you're taking a child out, like on a camping trip or something like that, and there are things that could be really helpful if you knew and that you can make accommodations for and make it work, but just hoping that the more awareness of people with disabilities and, you know, including the communication disorder and the fact that that doesn't mean that something is wrong or that you can't fully participate in society, I think is key.

B (23:42)

Yeah, yeah. You know, and as you're talking, I'm thinking about, like my two little ones, like when I would Be filling out paperwork at the pediatrician. I remember questions around, like, have they shared their first words? And like, there are all these milestones. And I'm thinking like beyond like your pediatrician. And maybe if like a teacher or somebody recognizes, like, hey, there may be some cause for concern here, like, what

A (24:04)

kinds of things should parents or caregivers

B (24:06)

be paying attention to while on the lookout for that there may be something going on that might require some additional treatment.

D (24:13)

This is a great question too, because I don't have grandchildren right now, but a lot of my friends are having, having their first grandchild. And I get a lot of calls about, hey, can you come over and observe? Or this is going on. And sometimes it starts with the grandparents, you know, but. And I have done that throughout my career. But being aware of what the developmental milestones are, knowing that child's development and acquisition of sounds could be through like age 6 to 8. So S is a later developing sound or th is a later developing sound. So if the they're using an easier sound to produce a word than, you know, wabbit for rabbit, then that's okay. Like, that's okay. They're not expected to produce that sound yet. So being aware of what like milestones are, especially for sounds, that's like one of the biggest one. Also not comparing. We hear this throughout life, right? She has a cousin the same age and she is talking so much better, but then also realizing that she's more repeating things. There is nothing wrong, but it's just not the same. It's hard not to compare, but every child is different. So just knowing what the milestones are, just making sure that, that you are asking questions. And in a couple of these scenarios, teachers have said or daycare, like, hey, what does so and so speech sound like at home? Or how are they talking at home? Also, in today's world, when we're thinking about children, that may be three, four, thinking about COVID babies, you know, everybody was isolated. So during that time and you hear a parent say, oh, she was a Covid baby. So not saying that things are delayed, but we know that when children are around other children, they begin to pick up things. They begin to communicate on their level with their peers. So that's another thing. Being involved in playgroups and talking to other parents, not in a comparison way, but just to get information. But of course, all the things we hear about. Continue to read and expose your child to opportunities in everyday life. Going to the grocery store, talking, playing outside, just natural things beyond technology and screen time. Not saying that that's bad, but just early on putting limits on it and knowing what to do. But it's just more being aware. And if you do, don't wait because for a child time three months seems like half a year or a year in growth. So if you do have concern, don't wait. There's child fine in every state, every county which you can call and if you don't know where to go, help that you get started with, hey, I have these concerns and how do I get started to figure out if I need to do something further to give my child the support they need?

A (27:27)

Dr. Ellis, are speech and language pathologists typically covered by insurance?

D (27:31)

So yeah, so that's a good question. So yes, if there is a disorder. And so that's going to be the key thing if you go the private route. So that's why I encourage parents when they do, if their child is under five, to use the resources like Child Find and Early Start or whatever it's called in your area because you're entitled to those services through the school system. So that's the place that I would always recommend that people start if your child is diagnosed. And each county, each state has their own criteria of how they determine eligibility. So if your child is determined eligible for services, and I'm talking about now sports, speech, occupational therapy, physical therapy for the birth to five, then you can get those services through the school System and for 0 to 2 in the home so they can come to your home or community based setting to provide those services. Some parents want to go private. Services might be limited through Child Find based upon the eligibility criteria and the percentage that they may see a delay. We talk about delays in those early years versus disorders. If there is some evidence of hearing loss, of course there and hearing loss we know can delay language acquisition, the acquisition of sounds. You don't get the feedback like everybody gets, so you're not really sure when the sound doesn't sound right. And that's for adults too. So that would be covered. Of course, there's a whole process but, but usually when it comes to insurance there has to be a delay or disorder identified and whatever that eligibility looks like for that insurance carrier.

B (29:23)

So you've already talked a little bit about like the different dialects we may have because we maybe grow up in different regions. Right. How do you differentiate the difference between like a dialect or somebody's like natural way of speaking versus somebody that something that's a delay or a deficiency?

D (29:39)

Yeah, so good question. We talk about delay or disorder. We also See this in individuals whose primary language may not be English. So it's important to know. Sound like how they're functioning in L1, the primary language versus the secondary language. But also when we're talking about a dialect. So speaking a second language is different. But when we're talking about a dialect, it's important to know what the features are, to know if it's a difference or versus a disorder. So also, just because someone doesn't sound like us or they move to a different region and they sound different does not mean that it's a disorder. And when we're talking about school age, how is it affecting their academic performance? That's going to be really important. So we all know there's Southern dialect, there's New England dialects. There's dialects. I came from California to Howard. I went to school in the Valley. So I was. I had valley speech. That's what they told me. But also, when I was at Northridge, parents would bring their kids into the clinic wanting this valley speech worked on and stuff. So that was like. I was a student then, but I do remember that. But different regions, different areas. Even here in the dmv, you're going to hear different, what we call prosodic patterns, tone, maybe even different morphological patterns. We see that in African American English. There's also Southern white English. There's so many different ones. Is it affecting your academic performance? Is it affecting your work performance in some way? And that could be objective. You know how your speech is. But it's really up to how is the listener perceiving? And are they perceiving a difference based upon what they sound like? And are they really having trouble with understanding, or is it just they may not like the way the person sounds or it doesn't sound like them,

A (31:52)

you

B (31:53)

know, as you're talking, Dr. Ellis, it reminds me of the importance of having a variety of practitioners in the field, because there's so often a connection between, like, what the presentation of a voice sounds like in connecting that to, like, intellect in ways that are not accurate. And it sounds like that is what you're speaking to.

D (32:10)

Yes. And just because someone has a disfluency. Let's go back there. Or someone doesn't sound like you does not mean that it equates to intellectual, you know, And I think that over time, that's what has happened. Sometimes it's the majority, and the majority wants people to sound like what they sound like. And so therefore, they perceive it to be. People are less educated.

A (32:39)

Right.

D (32:40)

And there are studies where there's unfamiliar listeners. And people listen to just a recording or a voice and they rate maybe their education level or a number of things. And of course, those that don't sound like the majority or maybe rate it lower, but when you look at qualifications, they could be higher. You know, and this is like in a study, but it's just rating people based upon how they sound as opposed to who they are and what they bring to the table.

A (33:12)

Right. So I wonder if you can talk

B (33:14)

about how growing up with a speech or a communication disorder impact somebody's mental health. I'm thinking things like self worth. You already mentioned a little bit about anxiety. Like, what does this do for somebody's, like, vision of themselves?

D (33:29)

Yeah. So it can cause people to feel less than not comfortable with themselves. They lack confidence. And it could also be communication disorders, but other disabilities, like adhd. We talked about disfluencies. It could bring upon anxiety. People that may have issues with processing or social anxiety. And they go into a room and we all know people stand up to start to speak and you just freeze. I know there are some people that may have OCD that also can bring about some of these disfluencies or a lag in their communication, their responsiveness, because they're processing, they're trying to get their thoughts together. That also happens with. We said with people with disfluencies. They need that minute or they're in a situation where they are traumatized. There's people there, they may, for whatever reason, all these things plan to come into play where you're not getting enough sleep or you're not functioning at your best, and then you go into a situation and you're like frozen or you're tired, you're not getting your words together. So all of those things can come into play for individuals that may have a communication disorder and just not feeling real confident, or I don't sound like this person. Or people use big vocabulary or words and you may think, my vocabulary is not the same. So therefore I'm not going to show up as I can because I'm not measuring up to others that may be in my environment. And that can be how you think about it, but that is not always true.

B (35:19)

What might it look like for an adult to work with a speech and language pathologist? Like, is that an option? Like, maybe you didn't realize as a child that there were these concerns, but you realize it as an adult. Does it make sense to work with

A (35:30)

a speech and language pathologist then?

B (35:32)

Or is there some different treatment route

D (35:34)

at that Point, as an adult, it's elective, unless you had like, post stroke or we're talking about traumatic brain injury, Parkinson's dementia, things like that. But yeah, like, as an adult, it would be elective therapy. You know, it would not. I'm not saying it couldn't be approved by insurance, but this is something later on. So. But it's pretty much going to be elective therapy. And yes, it's finding out what is it that you want to achieve, what is it that you feel that you want to address, or what responses are you getting from your communication partner that you feel that you may want to change. And so looking at it that way, and like I said, it's elective. So it depends upon the person. And some of that, like, we are not counselors, but we're trained in some aspects of counseling. You know, usually there's a counseling course that the program that you have to take because it is getting at that root and building confidence. So some of my adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities, which is different, that I work with those that are able to use some language, we work on confidence and we go out in the community. We may go to a place to order or practice ordering food or asking questions in the community and getting them comfortable in the community, around people and just the feedback that they're getting once people realize, okay, this person may not communicate, but they're here and they're a consumer and I want to help them. And so what ends up happening is that the adult with a disability is getting positive feedback and that's building their confidence to make them want to participate more in the community and use their communication skills.

A (37:35)

More from our conversation after the break.

E (37:44)

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D (37:48)

Sometimes mom doesn't let me use my tablet.

E (37:52)

Well, that is part of looking out for you. Your parents want to make sure you're safe while you're having fun.

D (37:58)

I guess that's what we want, too.

E (38:00)

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D (38:10)

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E (38:12)

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D (38:22)

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A (38:43)

I'm Dr. Joy from the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and the pharmacist asks do you have any questions? And suddenly your mind goes blank? That's exactly why you need to listen to beyond the Script from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, a board certified psychiatrist and health educator, this show takes you behind the counter to answer the questions you wish you'd asked, like which medications might not mix well, what vaccines you should consider before a big trip, and even those questions you were too embarrassed to say out loud. Each episode busts myths, decodes health trends, and gives you real trustworthy advice from the experts you see most your neighborhood CVS pharmacist. No white coats, no lectures, just real talk, real answers and maybe a few laughs. The Listen to Beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. From visionary creator Kenya Barris comes Big Age, the hilarious and heartwarming Audible original comedy about love, aging and finding your way in life's next chapter, Big Age follows recently retired couple Dot and Butch Watts in their reluctant relocation to their new Florida home, Sunset Gardens, a senior community that is anything but relaxing. In the community, Dot and Butch encounter a parade of unforgettable personalities who push their 50 year marriage to the limit. There's Butch's flirtatious ex flame Ethel, spiritually possessed neighbors, pesky pill pushing couples, and the ferociously competitive Stevenator. Through its blend of outrageous comedy and touching revelations, Big Age explores what it means to grow older without growing old at heart. Go to audible.com bigageseries to start listening today. As you step into a new year, you're probably thinking about all the things you can do to truly make this the year of you. If earning a degree has been on your mind, National University has your back. They understand the realities of busy working professionals like you in their flexible online formats, four and eight week courses and monthly class starts help you fit school into your life, not the other way around. And Right now, National University's Year of Youth Scholarship offers up to $6,000 annually for eligible bachelor's and master's students who apply by March 31st. Make this the year of you at NU. Learn more today at NU.edu.

B (41:15)

Are there other strategies for building confidence that you can share with people who maybe are wanting to work on this?

D (41:21)

Just self acceptance. Acceptance like this is who I am. Sometimes I think about it like I wore braces. I have a gap. That's who I am. And I love it now. And my mom would say, oh, you didn't wear your retainer, you didn't wear your retainer. But I don't want to close the gap. Some people might and that's their choice. But I'm confident in my smile and how I, how my gap shows up in my life, in my personality. So the same with your speech. And that is also if you just wanted to be confident in however you speak, if you have a southern dialect, if people tell you, oh, you sound like whatever it is, you sound like, you don't sound black. We used to hear that a lot on the telephone. Get on telephone, you come in, it's like, oh, you didn't sound like asking questions like, well, what does that sound like to you? And just being comfortable in who you are and just knowing that we are all uniquely and wonderfully made. But if you do choose to address your communication different, then that's your choice and you have a choice. But a lot of it is building that confidence with self acceptance, knowing that everyone is not perfect, everyone, just like we say, everybody's life is not how it is on social media. So just how people show up and present themselves, that this is who you are and embrace who you are.

A (42:48)

Yeah.

B (42:49)

So what does treatment typically look like, Dr. Ellis? Let's say that you are working with maybe a child who has some disfluency. What will treatment look like and how might that be different? Working with kids versus adults?

D (43:00)

Yeah, so with children there's different exercises. We talk about breathing depending upon if the child's ready for breathing exercise also taking words, breaking it down one syllable at a time or is that phoneme also identifying which are there's particular sounds that they're more just fluent on than others. Having them being maybe some voice recording, having them listen and differentiate because once you're aware then it's, it gets a little easier to work on. So differentiate and when something may sound disfluent and when it's more fluent. So just building some self awareness. So then they're able to kind of listen for that and address it. But kind of very easy working on rate. If they're a fast talker that may result in some disfluencies then working on the rate of speech. So it depends upon what areas of disfluent speech they have. So now when we talk about adults, it may be starting with some history and knowing when did this first start trying to see if there is something There that may have triggered. And then having the adult think of when are your most disfluent moments. So being able to identify when are they most disfluent and if there are certain situations. So being situational awareness and working on those types of things and then moving more to exercises that will help them with easy talk flow, doing breathing before going into a sentence, if it's a certain sound, a lot of times it's looking for the right word. So you're. You're trying to process and which may be causing some disfluency. So it's coming up with strategies. So that's how it might differ from a child versus an adult.

B (45:00)

And what kinds of things can loved ones do to support somebody who maybe has a communication difference?

D (45:06)

Yeah, just in embrace. Don't think about stigma, don't think about shaming, rushing. That's another thing. Giving people their time and their space. Not finishing their sentences, so giving them that time to communicate, talking with them about how they feel and asking how they can support them. Not ordering for them or when you go out, not being their spokesperson, but also letting them have the opportunity and also making sure that other family members and friends and support are also giving them that same opportunity. Because a lot of times we just want to hurry up. So let me just hurry up in order for you. You let me just finish your sentence. But we've probably seen scenarios where with children when a sibling, when one is learning to talk and the other is the interpreter for, for the child to the parent, oh, he said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's natural as a kid. But if that happens, it's like, oh, thank you, thank you for helping out. But let's hear from. But you know, making it a very normal process. Let's hear what he has to say. And being inclusive to not leaving someone out because you think that they're not going to respond in time or they're just being passed over like they may not have something to say.

B (46:34)

What strategies do you think you can offer for how to create an inclusive workspace for people who maybe have a variety of differences of communication?

D (46:43)

Yeah, being accepted of everybody's communication style, including everyone in opportunities to present or speak or being a part of a team, a presentation offering things I think about universal design, like what helps someone, helps everyone. So can you use closed captions when there is a video? How are you presenting information? Are you considering people that learn better auditorily and visually? Are we asking questions on how the staff are in the workplace, how people may get their Information better people having opportunities to process what you've presented. So if there is professional development, like how fast are you expecting to implement, you know, these strategies or new work processes and are you giving people support to making sure that they know how to implement that? So I always like to talk about just like the universal design, like the door that automatically opens that may help someone with a physical disability really helps everyone. So when we think about the whole and just listening and asking those questions and making sure that individuals with disabilities are present in your workplace. I do a lot of advocacy work with ableism and presentations with another colleague and also agencies for employment in the area that help people get employment. So thinking about things like I know the employment agencies do this when we present together. They talk about crafting a specialized interview. So making sure that people have time in the interview, you know, if you provide an hour or how you present the information, also giving the individual the opportunity to do a day of work. So can they come and do a half day of work? So these are things I think about that we talk about when helping individuals with disabilities seek and get employment, but really are helpful for everyone. Like a job interview can be an hour, but what does that look like if someone were to do some work for a half a day? I mean, they're going to show you more that what they can do than in within that hour and on their resume. So just making sure that you have these opportunities that are inclusive with COVID and using more technologies and flexibilities and schedules. But when we consider that for everyone, then it can benefit. But definitely looking at the accommodations and meeting needs of individuals with disabilities, the same with standing desks. I remember you had to get an accommodation for a standing desk when I was in federal service. But now that's just like routine because we know that standing is better for us. Right. So it's those types of things that universal design that can help everyone.

B (49:51)

What kinds of accommodations do you want to make sure that college students are aware of? So any commitment communication accommodations that they can use if they have a speech or language disorder?

D (50:01)

Yes. Making sure that when you hit campus that you are going to the. If it's the office of Disabilities or whatever that office is called on campus that you are getting your accommodations, do not wait until you need them. And I say that because often what happens is students don't want to identify. Right. It's a new environment and they just, you know, they are making friends or they don't want to identify. But when you do that, it's on the record and then they get into a class situation and then they tell the teacher, oh, why? Or the professor, I need, but I have this disability, I need accommodations. Well, that's all fine and good, but unless they're getting some instruction from that office, they're not going to be able to adhere to what you say. And then often what happens by the time you do decide you need it, if you go and your documentation is outside of it used to be a three year period, then you may need a whole nother assessment. And now if you're away from home, you're in a different place. You're having to navigate that on top of getting the accommodation. So that's why I try to tell the students and advocate, go to the office and get that letter or whatever that looks like and make sure your teachers are informed. It's better to have it so you can use it when you need it instead of trying to go through the process as you're taking the test or as you're falling behind or whatever the case may be with your assignments.

B (51:44)

Dr. Ellis, this has been so incredibly helpful. Can you share with us where can we find you? What is your website as well as any social media handles you'd like to share?

D (51:54)

My company is not on social media. I do have a website, aurorasunservices.com that's just about my private practice and consulting some of the type of the work I do. I'm on LinkedIn under Don Carroll Ellis. You'll see speech language pathologists, also the DREAM center, which I'm the associate director. The DREAM at Dreams TA center is on Instagram. They're also on Facebook and social media. So if you want to find out more about Dream, if there's any faculty, we support university programs at MSIS, HBCUs and tribal colleges that prepare personnel under IDEA. So the individuals with Disabilities Education act, so that's psychologists, social workers, speech language pathologists, occupational therapists, special ed teachers. So if there's a faculty out there who wants to write a grant who's interested in finding out more about that, there's personnel shortages and especially shortages of persons of color in all of these fields. So, and that's in the statute, which is why, why we're still funded, that we want to fill that gap of personnel shortages and also make sure that we're feeling those training personnel from underrepresentative groups.

B (53:13)

We'll be sure to include all of that in the show notes so that people know how to reach out to you if they're interested in learning more.

D (53:17)

Yeah, and one other thing I would say the American Speech, Language and Hearing association has lots of tools and resources for parents and this is open to the community, not behind the member wall, but for parents that want to just know more about how my child hears and talks and those sorts of things. All of that is available@asha.org and you can research information about communication disorders across the lifespan.

A (53:46)

Perfect.

B (53:46)

Thank you for that. I'm sure lots of people will appreciate that resource. So one more question for you that's not super related to the topic, but still something we like to know. What's one piece of advice that you would give to your 18 year old self?

D (53:59)

Oh wow. Just really to embrace who I was becoming. There wasn't a lot of people like me and there still isn't in the field even though I learned how to sign at Bakersfield College when I was 18 and then went to Cal State Northridge where there's the national center for the Deaf. There's a lot of a big population of deafness which all that experience led to me being on faculty at Gallaudet. But just embrace who I was becoming and knowing that I belonged in those spaces where there were not people like me.

B (54:38)

Thank you for that.

A (54:42)

I'm so glad Dr. Ellis was able to join us and share her expertise for this conversation. To learn more about her and her work, visit the show notes@thristyforblackgirls.com session 453 and don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have books or movies you'd like to review or topics you'd like us to discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM therapyforblackgirls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory@therapyforblackgirls.com directory. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come on over and join us in our patreon community@community.therapy for black girls.com for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more. We can't wait to see you inside. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y' all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

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