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- [00:11]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website@therapyforblackgirls.com while I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y', all, thanks so much for joining Me for session 462 of the therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation after a word from our sponsors.
- [01:11]
Elise Ellis
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [01:16]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
We've all been there. You're trying to get dinner started or just need 10 minutes of peace to
- [01:20]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
finish a phone call?
- [01:21]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
You want to give your kids something to do, but you want it to be good content. That's where LingoKids comes in. It's an app for kids 2 to 8 that focuses on peer interactive joy. It turns their time into an adventure where they're exploring and playing in a safe space built just for them.
- [01:36]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
You get a moment to breathe and
- [01:38]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
they get an experience they're actually excited about. It's the kind of win win every parent needs. Lingokids Everything kids love. Give your kids the play they love. Download the LingoKids app now on your phone or tablet and it's free. I'm Dr. Joy from the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. Ever been at the pharmacy counter and your mind goes blank when the pharmacist asks any questions? That's why you need to listen to beyond the Script from CBS Pharmacy and iHeartMedia. Hosted by Dr. Jake Goodman, this podcast answers the questions you wish you'd asked, like which meds may not work well together, what vaccines you might need before a trip, and even the ones you were too embarrassed to say out loud? Listen to beyond the script on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In this episode, I'm joined by licensed psychotherapist Dr. Natalie Jones for a thoughtful conversation about what it really means to go no contact with people in your life who may be causing harm. Dr. Jones brings deep expertise in trauma, boundaries and emotional wellness and she shares from both her clinical work and her passion for helping people build healthier relationships. In this conversation we talk about how complicated this decision can feel, especially within families and tight knit communities, and why more of us are finding ourselves considering distance as an act of self preservation. As conversations about boundaries and generational healing continue to grow. This feels like such a timely and necessary discussion, and I hope it offers you both clarity and reassurance if this is something you've been wrestling with, if something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG incession or join us over in our Patreon to
- [03:20]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
talk more about the episode.
- [03:22]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
You can join us at community.therapy for black girls.com but first, we are desperately in need of an emergency pop culture check in. A lot, maybe even too much, has occurred. And as a therapist, but also someone who appreciates and loves pop culture, it wouldn't be me if I didn't dig into the mental health aspect of all of this. Here's our conversation.
- [03:46]
Elise Ellis
Hey Dr. Joy, I'm excited to be in conversation with you for our second pop culture segment here on the podcast. For those of you just joining us, this is a newer segment we're building out. We're taking moments from pop culture, what everyone's watching, talking about, maybe even debating, and using them as a starting point to think a little deeper about our mental health. So I'll bring in a few stories and Dr. Joy will help us make sense of what's underneath them, what they might reveal about how we're relating to ourselves, to each other, and to the world around us. Are you ready to get into it?
- [04:22]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
I'm ready.
- [04:23]
Elise Ellis
Okay, so the first story of the week is Spirit Airlines shutdown, and we're going to talk a little bit about accessibility to travel. So you guys may or may not know, Spirit Airlines abruptly shut down operations this weekend after years of financial struggles, failed bailout efforts and rising fuel costs. The airline, long known for ultra low fares, canceled all flights and shuttered its operations, leaving travelers stranded and driving up prices across the industry. And for many, especially budget conscious travelers, Spirit was one of the few accessible options for air travel. So, you know, I've been thinking about what happens when affordability disappears from essential experiences like travel. And I'm curious, what are the mental health implications of feeling like certain experiences, like a vacation or visiting family, are no longer accessible to you?
- [05:19]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
So first, Elise, I really appreciate this question, right. Because I think that it is the perfect example of something that you wouldn't necessarily think about having a mental health impact, but it actually does, right. When you think about, like being excluded, excluded, that's the first thing I think about, is like being excluded from things that most people want to participate in. And I think it really highlights this othering that we find just across the board in lots of different categories and makes people feel like these are not things that are for me. So when you think about like class trips, right, like class trips when I was in school used to just be kind of like to our local park or somewhere drivable. And now kids are kind of sometimes expected to fly to D.C. for a trip or you know, go to different places. And so when you think about even those kinds of things are impacted and I think the mental health impact makes it so that people feel left out. It makes it feel as though there are things that are not meant for me. And I think that that can cause a real hit to self esteem. It can really impact feelings of worthiness. I also think one of the things I was struck by related to this story was the abrupt nature because it felt like we heard rumblings about it and then by the end of the week it was completely done. And so I think business is business. People kind of say, but I'm always really concerned about the mental health impact of people on the workforce. Right. So the flight attendants, the pilots, all of the people who are servicing the airplanes like just abruptly now have been terminated and don't have gainful employment in that same way. And so I just hope that we can get to a place where businesses maybe are able to be a little more thoughtful, a little more intentional about the rollout of difficult news like this. You know, I do understand sometimes it can't be avoided, but I think that that's also a huge mental health impact of this story.
- [07:12]
Elise Ellis
Oh, of course. I think across industries, when we see people get laid off so abruptly, it is jarring. You don't have the time to plan or to think about what your next move is. You have to scatter to figure it out. I have a bit of a follow up for you. When we see the gap between the have and the have nots widening and these experiences that are supposed to provide connection for people feeling like they're unaffordable, how can we still find connection? How can we still. You might not have answers about how can we still travel, but how can we still find connection when some of it feels out of reach?
- [07:49]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Yeah, you know, I mean, I think it is easy to kind of think about like, oh, let's just plan a girls trip. But a girls trip doesn't necessarily have to involve air travel.
- [07:57]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right.
- [07:57]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
So I think it could be something where you do road trips together or look at other ways to be intentional about connecting. You know, I Know, one of the things that I talk about a lot is like old adult sleepovers or pajama parties where maybe you rent a hotel or an Airbnb or even in someone's home and just kind of have old fashioned sleepovers, which I think are a missed art for adults. So things like that or adult field days, I'm also a big proponent of. And so I think it really just forces us to be more creative about
- [08:27]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
the ways that we can connect and
- [08:28]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
making sure that when we are thinking about ways to bring people together, we are not excluding now based on this idea that an air travel may not be as easy as it was before Spirit closed down. And even then, you know, like prices have gone up across airlines.
- [08:43]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Right.
- [08:44]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
And so I think even beyond this news, I think it is important for us to just be much more intentional about looking at different ways to connect that kind of meet all different income levels.
- [08:53]
Elise Ellis
Thank you for that. So next we're going to get into Nick Cannon's dating double standard. So Nick Cannon recently appeared on the TMZ podcast and admitted to having a double standard when it comes to his 15 year old twins. He said that his son Moroccan is allowed to date while his twin sister Monroe is not. He says there are things out there that I have to protect my daughter from. This has sparked conversations around gender norms, protection, parenting differences when it comes to boys and girls. And I think the core tension in here is what does protecting daughters become limiting to their autonomy. And I feel like in so many black families, girls are more tightly controlled when it comes to dating and sexuality, while boys are given more freedom. How does this dynamic shape black girls sense of autonomy, self trust and relationship boundaries as they grow up?
- [09:45]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Ooh. So I had not heard this story. I was holding my breath because I. You never know with Nick Cannon, like what kind of story might be kind of hitting the headlines at this point. But this does feel like something that I think is sadly fairly common across families. This idea that like boys are able to do certain things that girls are not. And I think you really hit the nail on the head and that there are things that young people and children need to develop skills around regardless of gender and gender presentation. Right. And so the idea that it's okay for his son to date, but not his girl, his daughter, to date, like, when is she actually going to be able to develop the kinds of skills she needs to become a young woman and an adult in this world. Now, you may make the argument that 15 feels too young, that I'm willing to debate but if it is okay for your son, then it also should be okay for your daughter. And then it makes me think, what kinds of things does she needs to be protected from? And are you having those conversations with your son? Right. Because in theory that's what you're thinking, like, oh, you know, I'm not sure what the guys are going to do. And you know, like, so what kinds of conversations are you actually having with your son so that other people's daughters, that is who they are dating, don't need protecting from. And I do think it really limits the ability for, like I said, like young women and young girls to develop the kinds of skills that are necessary. We actually just had a conversation in our Patreon community recently. A community member submitted a question about so much of our lives as women. We are taught to kind of go to school, focus on education, kind of be all about the books and career stuff. And then at some point when I made 20s or so, family starts then asking all these questions about like, what are you going to settle down and when you going to have kids and all these things. And it's like, well, all of my life you said, go do this thing. Right. And so when was I developing the skills to actually be successful in relationships? And I think that this is a part of that conversation as well. I do think we have to get more expansive in our ideas about what it looks like for young people to develop relationship skills. Because we can't just think that at 20 something, everybody knows the answers about how to manage conflict and how to stand up for yourself, how to be assertive, how do you make sure that your desires are centered if we've never let them practice that? And that is largely what you're doing in dating at 15, right? Is teaching young people to be in tune with what kinds of things they're interested in, how to stand up for themselves, how to set boundaries, like all of those things that are really important life skills.
- [12:11]
Elise Ellis
Thank you for that. And I have a question. Outside of the gender dynamic of it all, what happens when you just see your sibling be treated differently than you?
- [12:21]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Yeah, I'm sure that that has made for some very uncomfortable conversations in the house. And like you said, like, how are you even explaining that? Because there is no real logic in like, oh, your twin brother can do this and you can't, because you can't even then say it's about age, like, oh, this is something that you'll get to do a little later. And so I think again, for young people, they don't always have the language or the understanding of, like, adults. Well, most of the times they don't. And so I think sometimes it can mean, like, well, what's wrong with me? Like, why does this sibling get special treatment? And again, it can be an impact on self esteem or even feelings of worthiness. And so I think you have to be very careful, especially with twins, that there is not this, like, favoritism or behavior that one twin is allowed that the other one is not.
- [13:06]
Elise Ellis
Absolutely. So for our third and final topic of the day, you couldn't have me asking questions on the first Monday in May or the first and not talk about the Met Gala. So this past Monday, the Metropolitan Museum of art hosted the 2026 Met Gala, officially launching the exhibit Costume Art. This year's theme explores fashion as a fine art form, specifically examining how garments have shaped and responded to the human body over the last 5,000 years. And the dress code for the Met Gala was fashion is art. When I think about how the average person interacts with the Met Gala, I think a lot of people want to be more creative with their looks. They want the opportunity, whether it's a wedding or someone's milestone birthday, to have permission to dress up. And sometimes I do think there's this stigma or this idea that if you aren't famous, if you aren't going to a huge event, you're being too much if you dress up. And while the Met gal is cool to watch, I think it can make us feel like we're stuck in this rut. And for someone who wants to start dressing more creatively but feels like their life is too normal for it, how do you get over the fear of being judged or being looked at, quote, unquote, weirdly?
- [14:22]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Ooh.
- [14:23]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
So I actually just read something I think it was in the New York Times, a column about getting weirder as we age. And I think that that is one of the most beautiful things about getting older is that you kind of, like, let go of some of those ideas around fitting into a box and kind of being normal, so to speak, and get more creative and feel more permission to be more of yourself. And I think fashion is one of those places where it can be a pretty low barrier to entry if you're wanting to be more experimental. And I think it is a great way to kind of start stepping out and taking more risks. And I talk about all the time about just because you feel like people are paying attention to you or you feel weird, it's okay to sit with the feeling and still do the thing anyway. And so I think fashion is one of those things where you can actually be experimental, kind of take some opportunities to just dress up on a random Thursday, just because. This is also one of the ways that I think the Internet has actually done us a favor in that you see so many, like, blogs and channels that are really focused on just finding cool, random people on the streets who have, like, cool fashion sense. And so I think in some of those ways, like, the weirdness and the kind of stepping out of the box has been celebrated and given a platform to kind of exist, whereas maybe, you know, five to seven years ago, that would not happen. But I also think it's really important for you to know that people are not paying attention to you as much as you think that they are. Right. Like, if you think about your own kind of inner monologue, when you are going throughout your day, you're thinking about, what are you cooking for dinner? Where do the kids need to be this afternoon? What other work stuff do I need to do? You are far more interested in involved in yourself than you typically are in other people. And so I think that idea that you are in a spotlight anytime you're out in public isn't always incredibly realistic. And so if you are interested in being more experimental with your fashion and just dressing up just because it's Thursday, I think that is a great thing to do. You know, I think, again, especially as we get older, it is a good idea to kind of lean into all of the parts of ourselves. And once you leave this earth, you don't want to have any regrets about, like, oh, I wish I would have done that thing. And so if you feel like it is on your heart to be in a ball gown just because it's Saturday morning, going to the farmer's market, go and do that and make sure you take some fabulous pictures.
- [16:38]
Elise Ellis
And for the person who's kind of on the fence and they still feel like they need a reason to get dressed up, what would you say to them?
- [16:45]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
I mean, it's not hard to create a reason, I think. So, you know, can we celebrate 500 days at your new job, or. Oh, I'm celebrating whatever. Like, it's the first week of May. Like, I think creating your own celebration is fine, But I also think it could be a fun idea to talk to friends and, like, make this a group activity. So maybe y' all plan some affair where people are forced to get more dressed up. Again, I think to our earlier conversation about being in more creative and intentional, about connecting with one another. Having a fashion show as a friend group could be a fun thing to do. You know, I think giving yourself permission where it does not otherwise exist is actually a great, I think, emotional regulation, mental health kind of strategy.
- [17:29]
Elise Ellis
I love that. I absolutely love that. And now you're giving me ideas to find a reason for the entire team to dress up.
- [17:36]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Ooh, virtual fashion show. Well, Elise, but wait, but we cannot, because I know this is like your super bowl day. So I also need to know who are you most looking forward to seeing at the Met gala?
- [17:51]
Elise Ellis
So Paloma Elcessor is one of them always. I think her Met looks are always really underrated. And the days leading up to the Met, she's always posted like inspiration. This year it's Comme des Garcon who I don't know if she's being dressed by, but that's the inspo she's posted. And they always have, I think garments especially for women that subvert how we look at the female form. So I always really appreciate that. At the 2025 Billboard Music Awards, Erykah Badu wore this dress that was almost kind of alike to Sarah Baartman, who was the woman who was experimented on by scientists, the black woman. And so I think Erykah Badu is already really grand in the way that she plays with proportions, her hats. And then I think that was such a big moment for her. Especially like, I don't want to say people don't pay attention to the Billboard Music Awards, but to wear that there was a statement. So I'm really curious. I'm not sure if she's going to, but I'm curious what she's going to wear because she's also done some really fun stuff with like Marnie in the past and her and her daughter were in a Marnie campaign. Another brand that doesn't like subscribe to like the naked dress, small waist wide hips of it all. And so I think the people who lean into that are going to be really fun. So Erica, Paloma Elsasser, always. Teyana Taylor, like she's always great. Of course, Rihanna, like I don't. I heard Zendaya's not going, so I'm a little bit sad about that. But one of my favorite brands, who dressed Regina King last year, who decides war. I'm hoping they have some placements on the carpet as well, which is a black owned brand. And so I'm excited to see what they do. And a lot of their work is inspired by like church art and cathedrals and things like that. And so I think there's an intersection between, like, the history of fashion as art and what they already do. So that's going to be exciting.
- [19:43]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Ooh. So we should be in store for lots of great looks. I am, of course, excited. This is Asia Wilson's first year on the host committee, and so I am very excited to see what kind of looks she will give us as well as Angel Reese.
- [19:54]
Elise Ellis
Absolutely. Well, we will see you all next week and stay tuned on our socials. We are going to be asking you guys, what should we name this segment? We kind of just got into it and don't have a name yet, so we could definitely use some help from our loyal listeners.
- [20:09]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Thanks, Elise.
- [20:10]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break.
- [20:18]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
We've all been there.
- [20:19]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
You're trying to get dinner started or just need 10 minutes of peace to
- [20:22]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
finish a phone call.
- [20:23]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
You want to give your kids something to do, but you want it to be good content. That's where LingoKids comes in. It's an app for kids 2 to 8 that focuses on peer interactive joy. It turns their time into an adventure where they're exploring and playing in a safe space built just for them.
- [20:38]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
You get a moment to breathe and
- [20:39]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
they get an experience they're actually excited about. It's the kind of win win every parent needs. Lingokids. Everything kids love. Give your kids the play they love. Download the LingoKids app now on your phone or tablet and it's free.
- [20:58]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Jones.
- [21:00]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Joy.
- [21:03]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
It's a pleasure to chat with you again. The conversation we had about narcissism continues to be a community favorite. It's one that people revisit quite often. So I thought that it was great to bring you back for this conversation because it feels like a bit of a spin off, though not quite. And the conversation we're having today is around going no contact with family and friends and romantic partners. So I think that there are a lot of definitions when people are talking about no contact. But in terms of your work, what do we mean when we're talking about going no contact?
- [21:33]
Dr. Natalie Jones
So no contact to me means exactly that. It means that once you go no contact, there is no more contact after that. This is definitive. It's done. It's not meant to be an action to encourage another action. Meaning I'm not going no contact with you to be punitive or to get you to try to hurry up and reach out to me and do all those things. It's no contact. Because I am trying to protect my mental peace. I have decided that this relationship is not healthy for me anymore. And I think it's better for us to be done with each other in releasing this relationship. It's done with love, but it's more to protect me and my peace. And where I'm at, that is what no contact is. We are done.
- [22:25]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
I appreciate the nuance that you added to that, Dr. Jones, because I do feel like sometimes, and I don't know that this is the definition, but I do feel like there is sometimes a, oh, is this a manipulation kind of tactic or is it a step before a step? But you are saying, like, no, this is. We tried all of the steps and this is the decision I'm making about what I need to take care of myself and my mental health.
- [22:47]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So this is not manipulativeness. There's nothing ill will behind it. And there are people who try to use it that way, where they try to manipulate, but that's not actually no contact. Those are people that are still very much caught up in toxic relationship cycles who are still trying to get things to happen on their terms or they're just used to having certain reactions and certain relationship dynamics. But when you go no contact, this is not meant to be mean. It's not meant to manipulate you, and it's not done to try to hurt you. Now, how you may interpret that, that's on you, but it's meant to be. Mostly for my piece, it's saying definitively, I don't want relationships like this anymore. I'm in a different space for that.
- [23:38]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
And so, you know, I think in both of our work, you know, when. When a client or somebody finally gets to this place, it is not usually a first step. Right? Like, this is not typically the first action that somebody takes. Typically, there have been lots of different things that have happened before somebody makes
- [23:54]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
the decision to go no contact.
- [23:56]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Can you talk about, like, what's typically going on in somebody's life when they make the decision to go no contact?
- [24:03]
Dr. Natalie Jones
So I don't think it's the first step for a lot of people. I think a lot of things tend to happen before people go no contact. I don't think it's necessarily healthy for all these things to happen before people decide to go, because usually so much disrespect has happened in the relationship, usually before children or people decide to go no contact with their parents. Usually it's been years worth of stuff. So a lot of times the Steps that tend to happen before people go, no contact. A lot of times, again, there's, like, so much disrespect that happens. And there's children question, like, am I not lovable? Do my parents love me? Am I being a disrespectful child? Family members or the community at large will come into play here and say, well, you only get one mama. You only get one daddy. You need to forgive it and forget it and move on. These are your parents. So a lot of times tends to happen is children especially are conditioned to shoulder the burden of disrespect for many years before they do that. And everything under the sun is typically happening as a part of that dynamic. And so what they will tend to do is they'll come to somebody like me and they'll say, is there something wrong with me? Am I wrong for thinking this way? What is going on? What should I do with theirs? Well, if I've thought about doing this, but I was told by my sister, my brother, my aunts, my grandma, and all of these type of people that I'm selfish and that I need to get over it, or that my feelings aren't valid, or I'm being shown by the community, my church community even, that I need to honor thy mother, honor thy father. And that basically means that I have to neglect my own emotions before I'm able to do that, before I'm able to say or do anything to protect myself. And so I'm not really clear on what that means. So what tends to happen, especially when it comes to somebody like me, is we get clarity around what's going on, what you're needing from the relationship, and what certain things have meant. So if there's been some disrespect that's going on or betrayals or things like that, they need to get clarification and validation. Is this something that's, like, a big deal? Is this something that, like, I should be worried about? And what I've learned to tell people over the years is if you take the title away from that person, so if the title of that person was not mom or dad, but it was anybody else in your life, what would your actions be? Right? Would we be sitting here having this conversation? Would there be so much turmoil? Because a lot of times people will allow their parents to get away with everything, including murder, and only because that's my mama, that's my blood. That's how we are, especially if you're in the black community. But if we take that away and say, would you allow that in any other aspect of your life, then why are we allowing that here? Because they're actually treating you worse than your worst enemy. So there's all of that sort of processing. There's also processing what that would mean, what that would look like to go no contact. How would your life look? How do you want your life to look if you were to go down this road? Is that something that you're really ready to let go? And so usually there's like a series of actions, there's like a series of confirmations or, or things that happen before people actually even get to that step. It's not a decision that many people take lightly. Many people, what they tend to do is they may go low contact, so they may stop talking to whomever for a little bit and see how that feels. I always encourage people to do that, Take little vacations or holidays from that person, if you will, to see how your life feels without them in it. So if you, for example, if you talk to your mother every day and your mother's cussing you out, she's violating your boundaries and then you take like two weeks off from her, how does your life look within those two weeks away from her? And a lot of times is significantly better. I'm not anxious, I'm not depressed, I'm not suicidal, I'm not second guessing myself. I actually feel relieved. I don't have to pretend when I'm in the room with her, pretend to actually like her, pretend to actually want to engage with her. I actually feel more authentic towards myself. So those are a lot of the steps that we would take in going that direction.
- [29:05]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Yeah. And as you mentioned, like there are a lot of steps involved and usually once somebody gets to the place of feeling like, okay, I'm going to cut off contact with the this person, I'm going to go no contact with this person. The response from other people is often what gets in the way of them sticking with this decision. Right. So you mentioned it's not just cutting that person off. It could also mean cutting off connections to other people in the family, other people in the friend group. Can you say more about that and how you might manage being cut off then from these other people as well?
- [29:37]
Dr. Natalie Jones
I'm going to say something that's probably non traditional, probably would go against the grain. I tell people, mind their own damn business. Mind your own damn business. If you don't pay my bills, if you don't know what I've been through. Right. Because a lot of times people are talking out of turn, they weren't raised under the same roof. They don't know what I go through day to day with this person. They're just talking based off of what their experiences are or how they would handle things. But they don't know what this person is like behind closed doors. You don't know my mom is calling me everything but a child of God. You don't know that my mom tried to sleep with my boyfriend or all these other things. Right? That other situations that people go, you don't know what's going on. So if I can't take, I don't recommend people take blind advice from those who are not familiar with your situation or familiar with the true person that you're dealing with. A lot of people that tell you to do that, they don't even really know who that person is. They're dealing with the actor, they're dealing with the person who puts on the mask and goes out and performs for the world. But they don't know the genuine person, which is who I have to deal with, who I'm talking to on the phone with, who I'm laying in bed next to. Whatever the case may be, you don't know that actual person. So I'm going to respectfully need for you to stay in your lane and mind your business. And I'm allowed to be the author of my own life. Right? And so I think it really takes that sort of stance. And a lot of people look at that as being selfish. You do have to be selfish to take care of your own mental health. You do have to be selfish in order to mind your own well being. That's not selfish in a bad way. It's like you have to take care of yourself first before you can take care of anybody else. But do you ask anybody else for advice when you go to a doctor, when you're feeling sick, do you sit around and wait for somebody? You ask somebody else for advice when you have to eat or when you have to take certain medications. Do you say, hey, I don't know if I should eat today or not? Do you really do that? I think people, when you've been abused for so long, you've been conditioned to second guess your voice, second guess your opinions. I invite people to, hey, take control of your life back, take your autonomy back. Start making your own self directed decisions where you don't need permission from anybody else.
- [32:15]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
What do you think is often misunderstood in this conversation?
- [32:20]
Dr. Natalie Jones
That's a good question. I think what's misunderstood? And I think a lot of that, that has cultural nuance. Right? But I think probably the biggest misunderstanding is that children don't deserve, especially when you're talking about going no contact with parents, when you're talking about going no children, adult children, going no contact with parents. I think the biggest misunderstanding is that children don't deserve respect. Children should not be allowed to make their own decisions. Children don't deserve to be apologized to. That children just, you should take copious amounts of disrespect, you should take copious amounts of betrayal and forget how you feel. Just make up every single time, just forget how you feel. Give them a pass for the simple fact that it's your parents. And I think that's the thing. Or that children should be self sacrificing because their parents decided to give birth to them. So therefore, because I'm your mother and I decided to give birth to you, no matter how I treat you, you should always be self sacrificing because I brought you into this world and I have labored the cost of having you. Therefore, you need to be eternally grateful and you are forever indebted to me because of that.
- [33:46]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
And it feels like, you know, I think most recently there was a. This conversation gained more traction because Oprah did a podcast conversation about like people who have gone no contact. And like, one of the headlines that was used was that it was a trend. And you know, of course a lot of people who have made the decision to go no contact don't feel like it was a trend because I think trend makes it feel as though this is a decision you made lightly.
- [34:09]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Right.
- [34:09]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
But the other part of that story has been that a lot of the parents have come out and said, like, oh, I didn't recognize that there were these things that they felt about me. Or the parents have felt that it was unwarranted. Right. That I didn't do anything, so to speak, for this person to go no contact with me. Do you think that that is typically the case, Dr. Jones, that, like, parents don't realize that all of these things. If we're talking about parents. Right, because that's the example we've used. Do you think it's the case that parents don't realize, like, the ways that they have harmed their children or the people who they've been caregivers for and are like, shocked by this decision?
- [34:49]
Dr. Natalie Jones
No, I don't think that's the case. I think what happens is that parents don't care. Again, it's more or less when you become a parent, there are different stages of parenting. Just like there's different stages of. Of a child being a child. And I think what tends to happen with parents, a lot of times toxic parents still want their child to obey, be obedient to me, and be subservient to me. You are a child, which means you have no voice, you have no power and no authority. And so what I've noticed a lot of times with these parents who do this, they often speak to their children in a condescending manner, like, you do not have the right to feel the way that you do, to speak up and say anything. You need to stay in a child's place, right? And it's often that sort of negative rhetoric, and it becomes a rhetoric, so much so that they don't want to hear what their child is saying to them. They don't respect their child's evolution into adulthood, but they don't respect their children in general. Because I think even when a child is small or a baby, they still need their voice respected, their boundaries respected. Children need to be listened. They're their own autonomous human being. And what you have a lot of times in these cases with these parents is like, I don't see my child as an individual. I don't want my child to be a free thinker. I want my child to be something that I control every aspect of their life. I have the say so. And I don't really want any sort of rebuttal. I don't want any individuality. I don't want any sort of difference of opinion. I just want what I want. And so I bulldoze my way through that relationship. And so when you have parents that think like this, they just want what they want, and they've heard it before. Most of the adult children have tried to talk to their. They don't want to hear it. They shoot it down. And parents will give their children the silent treatment. Now, that's more of the manipulation piece where the parents will stop talking to their child and they'll stonewall the argument. And eventually the child sort of caves in and okay, mom or okay, Dad, I have to. I have to do this. I have a relationship with you. I have to give in and let you have your way. Otherwise, we don't have a relationship. So a lot of times children are in this relationship through manipulation and fear. If I don't cater to my parent, if I don't give them what I want, then we don't have a relationship. I want some kind of relationship with them. I don't want to be in this world alone or without my parents. So I have to capitulate and give them what they want.
- [37:44]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
And you know, you've talked about this and framed this as a way of kind of people making this decision to protect their mental health as a step towards their well being. But oftentimes people are seen as difficult or dramatic or doing too much if they are setting boundaries in this way. What do you think needs to change for us to expand that conversation beyond people being dramatic? If they make a decision like this,
- [38:06]
Dr. Natalie Jones
what does that even mean for somebody to be dramatic? And again, I think that's the thing. Like, what does that even mean for someone to be dramatic? How you would handle a situation is not necessarily how I handle a situation. So being dramatic is open to interpretation. Right. And you also have to think about like, which a lot of people don't. Right. But you also have to think about what's happening on the other end for somebody to have such an adverse reaction to what's going on, if that makes sense. Right. So if I'm being dramatic, what's happening on the other end of that, where I'm being dramatic.
- [38:52]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Right.
- [38:53]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Especially if you know that that's not my personality style or if you don't know me at all. Right. So I think that's one thing. But I also think, going back to what I was saying before, sometimes people need to know their place and respect a boundary. So a lot of times people will not interfere or speak up until the abuser triangulates them and brings them into a situation. What an abuser wants is an audience. They'll quickly have a lot of people come to defend their honor. And so when you think about children who go no contact, the first thing I said, where was the community? Where's the community been all this time? So where have your grandparents been all this time? Where have aunts and uncles and people who've actually witnessed the abuse, where have they been all this time? What have they been doing? Have they interfered and been a safety net for you up until this point? And a lot of times it's no, they haven't been, or oh, they always chose to look the other way or they've said, oh, it's not my business. But now all of a sudden all these people come rushing to the aid of or the defense of someone who's an abuser. So they're very selective with their help and interventions and it's all one sided. And again, it's very, it's mostly geared towards one person. Whereas you ostracize the other person or keep them out, or it's like you need to just calm down and you need to be more subordinate and get back in your lane. And so I would say that people, if they're going to intervene or be a safe space, you need to listen and hear with what's really going on and not come in towards the tail end of the story or be swayed by one person on everything, if that makes sense.
- [40:54]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Do you think that there's a difference between going no contact with parents versus like a sibling versus, like a friend or a former friend? Is there a difference in what the no contact looks like typically?
- [41:07]
Dr. Natalie Jones
I wouldn't say there's a difference in what no contact looks like. What I would say is it's typically more difficult for people to go no contact with their parents because again, it's constantly being hammered. You only get one set of parents, and it's your parents. You do only get one mom, you do only get one dad. So I would say it's harder for them to do that, at least in my experience in working with them, than it is with siblings and with friends. Friends, you can go out and get another one. Siblings, if you have another one, it's usually a little bit easier. Another one that's supportive or that you at least have a relationship with. But parents, that's a little bit more finite for people. And so once you're done with them, and those are all you have.
- [41:55]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
What does, as a clinician, supporting somebody through the grief process of going no contact look like? Because even though it may have been an abusive situation, not a great situation, it is the situation that you had. And there is of course still typically some grief related to having to cut off that relationship. So what does it look like to support somebody after they made that decision? Decision, yeah.
- [42:17]
Dr. Natalie Jones
So I think it's important to educate people on what no contact is. So there's a lot of education around what it is and what it isn't. Right. There's a difference between no contact and low contact, but also educating a person on why they would do certain things. So people need to be fully educated and informed. And so I think there's that there is also making sure that a person is ready to do that. So again, it's a finite situation. It isn't you stick your toe in the pool and then you come back, and then you stick your toe in the pool again and then you come back. It really should be more of a. This is a final decision. I'm okay. I'm at peace with It. And so understanding what that means. And so what I have done when people have started to talk about that, is to advise people like, okay, well, you want to be sure to do that. And part of the ways in which you want to be sure to do that is maybe you do want to take a break from your parents, because it's easier to say, I'm going to take a break, as opposed to, I'm going no contact. So maybe you might want to take an extended break and see what your life is like without that parent first before you commit to something that should be a permanent decision. And so people do that. But then we also go through the grieving process of what that means, because a lot of times going no contact is really like grieving two deaths in one person. So is grieving for the parent that you actually hoped you could have and the parent you actually do have that is spiritual physically still here on earth. Right. And a lot of times the grief is harder for the parent that you wish for, that you longed for, that you hope that they would magically turn into one day. And so a lot of times that's hard for people is to, like, process the death of what could never be and what will never be as opposed to what is. And so we work through ways of doing that, and then we move through that. And sometimes that's typically the longest part, is a grieving the death of what will never be.
- [44:42]
Elise Ellis
And.
- [44:43]
Dr. Natalie Jones
And then, of course, you get to that place of acceptance. When you get to that place of acceptance, you say, okay, well, I've gotten. I've let go of the person that will never be. And now I have accepted my parents for who they actually are or that person for who they actually are. And so I'm not sugarcoating anything, and I understand this is what actually needs to be done for my mental health, for my sanity, in order for me to go through life to have the type of life that I want. I understand the ramifications of it. I understand how this person has affected me all of these years, and I don't like that. So I'm allowing myself to be honest with myself about what this means. And then once we move to the place of acceptance, we can allow space for other people to come in and fill that void. So I often encourage allowing space for, like, mother like, or father like, or grandmother like, or a grandfather like, figures to come into your life to provide that nurturing care and support that you wish for all those years with your parents. But you never got.
- [46:00]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Dr. Jones, if you had A client who you were working with this on, and they are kind of in the beginning stages, like not quite sure if they want to go no contact. Is this typically a conversation that you'd be encouraging them to have to let mom know, like, hey, I no longer want to be. Be involved in your life or want to have you a part of mine, or is it kind of just gradually just we don't talk anymore.
- [46:23]
Dr. Natalie Jones
I don't usually encourage that. I don't usually encourage, especially when there's a lot of like manipulation and stuff going on or your parent is high conflict. If you have a parent that's highly conflicted, is volatile, physically aggressive and things. I don't encourage trying to have those types of conversations, especially when you yourself aren't clear. When you become more clear and definitive and you could actually walk away and you're not invested in a result, then maybe you can have that conversation. Everybody's situation is different. Sometimes people have parents that are highly volatile and it's just not safe for them to do that. So everybody's situation is different. But I don't encourage that type of conversation until you're clear, you're pretty definitive of what you're going to do and you're ready to be done after that. Otherwise, I think that's more or less something you need to be processing with your therapist. You need to have your own sense of clarity and autonomy on that decision and come to terms with that. In my experience, a lot of times when people go no contact when their parents, and this isn't every situation, everybody's situation is different. But a lot of times when people go no contact with their parents, it's fine if they're not reaching out to their parents, aren't reaching out to them, that person is the only person that's keeping the relationship alive. So there's that. You can also have parents that are highly enmeshed as well, that they, they want to be involved in every aspect of their child's life. But a lot of kids, what they fail to realize if they don't do anything, the other person is not going to necessarily do anything until they need or want something. And so a lot of times, if they're not overdoing it, trying to make that connection with the parent, things might wither away all on their own.
- [48:24]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
The other question I have, Dr. Jones, is around, like the logistics, especially when we're talking about a family member. Right. You just said virtual or like telephone contact is one thing, but what about family events? Events. Right. So let's Say I've gone, no contact with my dad, but then my brother is getting married. So then do I make the decision not to go to the wedding because I'm no contact with dad? Do I go and just avoid contact with dad? Like, what decision making can you explore there?
- [48:54]
Dr. Natalie Jones
That's a good question. And I think you have to assess how important that relationship is with you. So if that relationship is still very much important with you, still very much a part of your life, if your brother's getting married was the example. So if you want to show up for your brother, then show up for your brother. Don't allow anybody to take that power away from you. You can still go in. And again, I, I would encourage processing this with your therapist. But always have your boundaries, have your limits. You could certainly be cordial if you guys are going to be in the same thing space. But chances are if you give that parent too much energy or too much airtime, they might show up and act a fool. And you can let the other person know, right? So you could let your brother know, hey, I'm going to show up for you. And you kind of know where I'm at with this relationship. And I, I want everything to go smoothly, but here's what I'm not open to. And I want this day to be about you and not about our family conflict. And so these are my intentions. I'm going to show up for you. I'm going to do X, Y and Z. But outside of that, I can't be a part of all this other stuff, right? So you could set limits. You can also prepare the other person without it encroaching too much on their celebration. But you could let them know what you will and won't do and just be very graceful about it.
- [50:24]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
More from our conversation after the break. You know that moment when your kid
- [50:35]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
asks for your phone and you're already
- [50:36]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
bracing yourself for whatever random video they'll disappear into? Have you heard of Lingokids? It's an app where kids are actually playing, singing, tapping, and exploring stories. It's colorful, high energy, and designed so kids stay curious instead of just zoning out. They think they're getting a treat, and it was built just for them. Lingokids. Everything kids love. Download the Lingokids app now on your phone or tablet. It's free.
- [51:04]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
And what does it look like for us to maybe support somebody in our lives who has made the decision to go? No contact, right? So instead of saying, like, oh, you only have one father, you only have one mother, like, what does it actually look like to support somebody in their decision to go? No contact.
- [51:20]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Everybody is a little bit different, but I think the best way is to ask them, how can I support you? In what ways do you feel like support is needed for you while you're going through this? Some people don't want to talk about it. Some people may want to talk about it later on. Some people may need this, that and the other thing. And so you can offer, you can ask and say, how can I show up for you? Would it be helpful if I did? X, Y and Z? I want to respect whatever your boundaries are. So you can just ask and see how you can support them.
- [51:56]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Dr. Jones, something that often comes up around these conversations, and I think we've had some version of this conversation before, like these terms that are often thrown around in terms of somebody being toxic or abusive or how are you working with clients to kind of get some clarity around what they're meaning when they say certain things.
- [52:14]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Oh, that's a good question. So a lot of times what I will ask people to do is to clarify that. So how do you define that? Like, what are you using to gauge that? Right. Especially now that social media is as big as it is. A lot of people are getting their ideas or their definitions from social media. So I always ask them to clarify that and tell them to explain to me how that person is impacting their life and their livelihood. Right? So let's piece this out. How is this person affecting your life? Is this something that was a one off situation or is this like something that's happened over the years, many times over? Like, how do you define that? Right, because those are words that I've used. Right. And those are words that you have used and that Oprah or whomever has used. How do you define that for yourself? And a lot of times people will have different meanings. It's also helpful to take into, take culture into context because I've worked with people who are from all over. So how I define things or look at things in the US might be different from how people from Africa look at things over there.
- [53:42]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Right?
- [53:42]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Because the US is a very individualistic society. So we're all, hey, this is what I want from me, this is what I need from me. But then you might have people that listen to me or watch you, that's from a very collectivist society. So they can't move, move just out of their family. Like we say we can move. It's going to be different. And I try to take into account cultural nuances and things like that as well.
- [54:10]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
You know, you bring up an interesting point, because I think definitely somebody from a more collectivist culture would probably have more of a struggle with going no contact. Right. Because it is so much of one big unit.
- [54:22]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Can you share anything there or any
- [54:24]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
kinds of considerations you might think about if somebody does come from that kind of a cultural background?
- [54:29]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Absolutely. So I think even within collectivists, which is they're looking for the greater good of the family unit, the greater good of the community, but still there is some level or should be some level of individual autonomy. So even within a collective group, all the members still have to be doing well. And every culture is a little bit different. There's some even within cultures or subcultures, some require complete subordination, meaning that you can't say anything, or some require that if you are a woman, have to get in line. Right. And some people, if you take it to an elder in your family and then you get some advice from an elder, they can help you navigate the situation. So I try to use tools within that community whenever it's possible. It's not always possible to do that, especially if the whole family is toxic. So, for example, and this isn't meant to be discriminatory or prejudice or anything, but I've worked with Arab cultures before as well, and a lot of times and several Arab cultures, the whole family could be at odds. So everybody is fighting. And so we look at ways in which what's most beneficial for you, but they're also very heavily enmeshed. So while everybody may be fighting, we might work together, we might live together, we might go to church together. So I can't just get up and walk out, otherwise that's going to create a whole different polarity. So it's talking about what we can do within that culture that's also safe for you within your family. And then we also talk about whether or not that's realistic or not. And sometimes it's not realistic to stay connected to the entire family unit without having to walk away from all of it, because all of it is toxic. All of it is abusive. We put hands on each other, men have sexually abused. Within my family, whatever the case may be, sometimes we can't stay connected. And so we talk about what's realistic, what's practical, what you're willing to do, and whether or not that's feasible for you to have some peace and clarity. I hope that helps to answer your question, Dr. Joy.
- [57:05]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Yeah. Yeah, it does. We know that it is incredibly difficult to Leave abusive situations. Right. In like domestic violence kinds of situations. We know that there's like seven times before somebody leaves the situation. So it is incredibly difficult to extract yourself from a relationship that is abusive.
- [57:23]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Yeah.
- [57:24]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
What kinds of things make it more, more likely that somebody is able to remove themselves and permanently go no contact? What kinds of supports do you think need to be in place?
- [57:35]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Again, everybody's different. But I think the biggest thing would be finances. So if you're able to navigate this world, I think just being able to cover your cost of living, that's probably going to be a huge one. Like being able to take care of yourself, being able to cover all of your living expenses, you will be able to navigate this world much easier versus someone who is financially dependent on someone else or who doesn't know anything about managing finances. So I would say that that's huge because that's probably the number one thing that I would say that people fight over or the number one way that people control other people as well. So I think that's number one. Number two, and again, it doesn't mean it's less important. But number two is your mental health and well being. So if you have sound mind, you have confidence and wherewithal in other areas outside of your life, you can make sound decisions for yourself. And I'm not saying that we can't make mistakes because we can certainly make mistakes. But by and large, you know what it takes to be a functioning adult in this world and you can manage most things. I think that's number two. Right. You could take care of yourself. If your mental health gets out of balance, you will make that decision to go to therapy. You will go and take that antidepressant if necessary. You have that way of rationalizing and taking care of yourself and prioritizing yourself in that way. Number three, I would say validation. You have to be able to validate yourself. There's a good chance that when you walk away, you go no contact, you might lose a lot of the validation that you had. But that cycle of people that were in line with the person that was abusive to you, you might lose family validation, you might lose family support, you might lose relationships or relationships can be deeply impacted by. There could be a ripple effect. So you have to be okay with that. And sometimes for a lot of people, you have to be okay with being by yourself. You got to be okay with navigating the world all alone. And it's you and just you and nobody else and nobody cares. Because once you've walked away, you have become public enemy number one. So you have to be okay with navigating spaces by yourself. You have to be okay with having your birthday by yourself, having your wedding by yourself. All of these things, right? You have to be okay with that. And so you have to also be okay with starting over and really building your community from scratch. You don't have that choice when you're a kid. When you're little, you're a baby. Your family and things like that are already chosen for you. But now you basically have to pick and choose. And that could be a beautiful thing. You have to pick and choose your own community now. And so you literally have to build everything from the ground up. And so you have to be okay with that. A lot of people don't like being by themselves, and that's really one of the harder parts with them. Like, I don't want to be by myself. I don't want to be without my partner. I don't want to be without my parents. So you have to be okay with being alone. You have to get comfortable with being alone and standing on your own. Because a lot of times that's what's wired to be an autonomous individual, to be a free thinker, to be a person that is okay with having different schools of thought. So you have to be okay with that. I would say those are the top three things. And number four, I think, is being okay with having conversations about your decisions. So what that looks like is okay being okay with saying, oh, I don't have a relationship with my parents, and being able to stand in your truth without feeling ashamed, ashamed, without feeling embarrassed, without feeling like you have to explain or justify or say something on the back end so people feel like you're an okay person or nothing's wrong with you. I think that's the bigger thing is feeling like you don't have to justify yourself. You don't have to explain yourself. You made this decision and you're okay with that. And I think that's the thing, is being able to navigate those conversations about that.
- [62:09]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
That's incredibly helpful.
- [62:10]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Thank you for that, Dr. Jones. You know, in the early part of the conversation, you said that you feel like people almost wait too long before they go no contact, because they tend to put up with a lot of disrespect, a lot of abuse. How do you know, like, what the line is? How do you know whether just some good old boundary setting will work with a relationship versus when it may actually be time to go no contact?
- [62:34]
Dr. Natalie Jones
That's a good question. Dr. Joy, I'm 46 years old, so I think about this a lot differently than when you probably interviewed, I don't know how many years ago when you first interviewed me, now that I'm almost 50, I would say, and this might be a little harsh for people, but I would say you want to draw the line at the first sign of disrespect, at the very first sign of disrespect. It can be very hard to walk it back, especially with family. Family knows what buttons to push because they've created and designed those buttons. And so a lot of times that disrespect would go on and on and on, and sometimes it gets to a point where you don't even know you're being disrespected anymore. You know what I'm saying? Because it's so common. It's, oh, that's just how we do things. That's how they've always talked to me. Oh, it's no big thing. Until someone from the outside looking in as, whoa, what happened there? What was said there? That's crazy that your mama talks to you like that or that your daddy talks to you like that. What is that about? And so now that I'm older, I would say you want to get very comfortable with drawing the first line, withdrawing the line at the first sign of disrespect, and that's with anybody, because if you don't, people will continue to disrespect you with family and things like that. I understand you definitely want to speak to that, and you want to nip that in the bud right away. But chances are, if you're listening to your podcast. My podcast. Chances are you're an adult. So chances are that's been going on many years before they came to me and you to listen. Right. So we're probably already at a point where it's gotten to be. It's gotten to be crazy. And so what I would do then is I would set the limits. I would say, you know what? You need to do some things before we have that conversation. I'm going to pull back some of my energy. And so maybe what that looks like, if my mother, as a hypothetical example, if my mother has gotten comfortable with being disrespectful to me, a good example would be if I've told my mother something in confidence, and my mother turns around and tells everybody who would listen all the things that I've told her in confidence, ultimately betraying me. I'm not going to tell you things in confidence anymore. I'm not going to tell you or share things with you that I would not mind if they were published on the front page of the newspaper. So you're going to be treated just the same as I would treat like a work associate. Right. When it comes to my personal information, you'll have to learn just like everybody else learns about that type of stuff. Right. So I'm. You're. You don't get the same amount of privilege that I've just been giving you to my own detriment, if that makes sense. So I'm a little bit more selective about what I share with you. I'm also a lot more conditional, right. In terms of our relationship. Like, we can't go back to a place of comfort until X, Y and Z happens. And that's not me trying to exert my power or authority or being manipulative over my mother. It's like in order for us to have a good relationship or to even see if we have the potential for a good relationship, maybe we got to go to therapy, we have to go to a neutral third party. We've got to talk about some stuff, and we have to really establish those boundaries. So if we can get back to a place of understanding, if we can get back to a place where there's respectful communication, well, I don't want a urotherapist. I don't want nobody in my business. Well, these are what my conditions are. Like, I love you as my mother. But like my conditions are, in order for us to continue like this, we have to get to a place where we can respect each other, where we can communicate and talk to each other without you calling me everything but a child of God, without you getting out of character and things like that. So I would say those are some of the things that we can do. But you have to be the agent of change. Because what tends to happen, especially when we're talking about our parents, especially if your parents are older, they're like 60, 70, 80, 90, or however old they are, there's a good chance, I won't say always, but there's a good chance that your parents are who they are and they're not changing. They're not changing for you, they're not changing for anybody because they don't see anything wrong. So you have to be the agent of change in your life regardless of whether or not they change or not.
- [67:22]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
And that can be difficult.
- [67:23]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Right. Like to know to your point around the grief of the parent that you wish that you had coming to terms with the idea that this is who they are and I got to deal with the reality of it.
- [67:35]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Bingo. Yes.
- [67:36]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Well, this has been so helpful and I think a lot of our community will really appreciate everything you shared. Dr. Jones, please remind us where we can stay connected with you. What is your website as well as any social media channels you'd like to share.
- [67:49]
Dr. Natalie Jones
Absolutely. So I'm across all social media platforms. Probably the one that's most popular right now is my TikTok. And of course we've been pod sisters for I don't know how many years now. What is it like eight years? Is it going or eight years joy?
- [68:05]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
I think closer to 10. Dr. Jones yes.
- [68:08]
Dr. Natalie Jones
I've lost some Covid. Makes me lose some time. Yeah. So 10 years we've been doing this thing. Right. But you know, of course you can find me on my podcast, A Date with Darkness podcast, my website, drnataliejones.com so I have some other things that I have in the works for you guys that are going to be showcased soon enough, but drnataliejones.com, you can find me on there and that gives you the link to everything. And of course I appreciate you having me on here.
- [68:37]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Of course.
- [68:38]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
Thank you so much for joining us again and we'll be sure to include that in our show notes.
- [68:45]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
I'm so happy Dr. Jones was able to return and chat with us for this conversation to learn more about her and her work. Be sure to visit the show notes at therapy for black girls.com session 46 2. And don't forget to text this episode to two of your girls right now and tell them to check it out. Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast? If you have topics you think we should discuss, drop us a message at Memo FM Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our Therapist Directory at therapy for black girls.com directory don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls. Or join us over in our Patreon for exclusive updates and behind the scenes content and much more. You can join us at Community therapy for black girls.com this episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Chubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank you all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. If you've got kids between the ages of 2 and 8, you know that not all apps are created equal. If you want something that actually gets them excited and thinking, then check out lingokids. It's an absolute blast. It's a world of interactive games, music they'll want to sing along to, and stories that spark their imagination. It's high energy, it's vibrant, and it keeps them actively playing rather than just zoning out. Whether it's a rainy afternoon or a weekend morning, it's the fun they're looking
- [70:21]
Host/Co-host (likely Elise Ellis or another regular host)
for and the quality you want.
- [70:23]
Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford
Lingokids Everything kids love. See why millions of families love it? Download the LingoKids app on your phone or tablet now for free.
- [70:33]
Elise Ellis
This is an Iheart podcast. Guaranteed human.