“I GOT DIVORCED AFTER 13 YEARS”

Summary

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Therapy Gecko Episode Summary

Podcast: Therapy Gecko
Episode Title: “I GOT DIVORCED AFTER 13 YEARS”
Date: September 3, 2025
Host: Lyle
Featured Caller: Coco

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Episode Overview

In this raw and deeply personal episode, Lyle (the Therapy Gecko) talks with Coco, a listener in her late 30s, about her recent divorce after 13 years of marriage. Coco shares her journey of navigating her husband’s severe cocaine addiction, the unraveling of their shared business and family life, the challenges of single parenthood, and rebuilding her life from the ground up. The conversation offers candid reflections on addiction, resilience, co-parenting, and what it means to start over.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Coco’s Backstory and Motivation for Calling

• Longtime Listener, First-Time Caller: Coco has been a dedicated fan, attending Lyle’s live shows in Dallas and Orlando ([03:02]).
• Premise for the Call: Coco wants to share her experience of divorce after a long marriage, hoping her cautionary tale can offer wisdom to others ([04:49]).

2. The Reality Behind “Doing Everything Right”

• Coco’s Precautionary Message: “You can do all the right things and it can still not work out.” She highlights that extensive planning, waiting, and precaution don’t always ensure a happy marriage ([05:40]).
• Quote:

  “I’m an example of how you can do all of those things and it still not work out.” — Coco (05:40)

3. The Four-Year Downward Spiral: Addiction and Its Fallout

• Discovery of Husband's Addiction: Coco’s husband, a successful professional, developed a cocaine addiction in the latter years of their marriage ([06:18]–[10:00]).

• Root Causes: Addiction was intertwined with his unaddressed trauma and unresolved family issues ([10:00]).

• Turning Point: Coco found 70–80 empty baggies of cocaine in his office, realizing the enormity of the problem ([11:10]).

  “I went in his office, put my hand in the first pocket, pulled out a handful of about 70 to 80 empty baggies of coke. Yeah, it was a lot.” — Coco (11:10)

• Interventions and Family Dynamics: Despite multiple interventions, her husband refused actual treatment, only agreeing to superficial therapy ([13:19]).

• Financial Ruin: The addiction led to mounting debt, including a secret $100k loan from his parents ([13:19]).

4. Protecting Her Son Amidst Chaos

• Disclosing the Truth: Coco had the difficult task of telling their 13-year-old son about his father’s problems, choosing her words carefully ([16:46]–[20:51]).

  “There’s a reason… your dad is on drugs.” — Coco (17:06)

• Her Son’s Maturity: Despite the trauma, her son responded with empathy:

  “Well, he must be really struggling a lot if he feels like he has to do that.” — Coco’s son ([20:51])

• Extreme Violations of Trust: Coco discovered her husband was having drugs delivered to their house, even while she and their son were home. She also found evidence of him arranging for prostitutes ([24:53]).

5. Collapse: Separation, Custody, and Legal Turmoil

• Separation: After the final revelations, Coco issued an ultimatum—get help or leave. He chose to leave for their Florida condo ([24:53]).

• Custody Battle: Her husband tried to gain full custody and relocate their son to Florida, which was ultimately denied ([29:05]–[32:21]).

• Family Loyalty Shifts: Initially receiving support from her in-laws, Coco was later ostracized as they sided with their son, despite his addiction ([32:24]).

6. Business Failure and Reinvention

• Shared Businesses Fail: Their once-successful businesses collapsed due to her husband’s lack of engagement; Coco decided to leave it all behind rather than fight for assets connected to him ([36:09]–[39:59]).

• New Career Path: Despite financial struggle, Coco pursued substitute teaching and is now nearly a certified art teacher, finding meaning in a new career ([43:00]–[45:21]).

7. Current Life and Co-Parenting

• Financial & Emotional Recovery: Coco ended up with little from the divorce and must move out of her home by year’s end but values her regained peace ([45:38]).

• Custody Arrangement: A 50/50 split; her son alternates weeks between both parents, and her ex-husband moved back to Texas ([49:03]–[51:16]).

• Ongoing Concerns: Coco believes her ex is still using drugs, noting his refusal to allow random drug testing as part of their agreement ([51:16]–[53:59]).

8. Starting Over: Dating and the Future

• Dating Again: Coco is cautiously open to new relationships but finds post-divorce dating, especially in the world of dating apps, to be a learning curve ([54:07]–[55:33]).

• Outlook: Still optimistic about love and personal growth, she sees value in her journey and in modeling resilience for her son.

  “You can do everything right, and things just still just not work out. But, yeah, I mean, I still believe in love. I’m sure that there is somebody out there somewhere.” — Coco (55:33)

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Memorable Quotes & Reflections

• On Accepting Life’s Unpredictability:

  “You could do everything right and things will still go wrong. It’s interesting, right, because she’s correct about that with all endeavors, right?... You could do everything right and things will still not work.” — Lyle (62:37)

• On Survival and Optimism:

  “I definitely think I’m, you know, toxically optimistic. I don’t know if that’s the right term.” — Coco (61:11)
  “I don’t think that it’s toxic to be optimistic.” — Lyle (61:30)

• Advice to Others in Similar Situations:

  “If anybody out there is struggling, you know, and you have a support system and you have means to go get help, do it. Do it. There is something so much better on the other side that you just… you can’t even imagine, but you’ll never know if you don’t make that leap and you don’t try and attempt to be the best version of yourself.” — Coco (61:52)

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------|--------------| | Opening with Coco & intro to her story | 02:40–04:49 | | The marriage, addiction, and downward spiral | 05:35–13:19 | | Discovering the full extent of addiction | 11:10 | | Talking to her son about drugs | 16:46–20:51 | | Major breaking point (drugs, prostitutes) | 24:53–29:05 | | Custody, betrayal by in-laws, legal issues| 29:05–39:59 | | Financial & professional rebuilding | 43:00–45:21 | | Current life, co-parenting arrangement | 49:03–53:59 | | Dating after divorce & final reflections | 54:07–57:18 | | Lyle’s final thoughts and episode wrap-up | 62:37–65:57 |

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Tone and Takeaway

Throughout the conversation, Coco is remarkably candid, self-aware, and even humorous, despite her hardships. Lyle maintains his signature supportive yet irreverent tone, affirming her resilience and drawing larger lessons about the unpredictability of life. The story is both a cautionary tale and a testament to the possibility of recovery and renewal.

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Highlights for Listeners Looking for Inspiration or Reassurance

• For anyone questioning “What did I do wrong?” Coco’s journey shows that circumstances sometimes unravel regardless of our best efforts.
• For those facing addiction in a loved one: Empathy, boundaries, and realism are all crucial, but ultimately, recovery is an individual decision.
• For parents navigating divorce: Transparency and honesty (age-appropriate) with children can foster resilience.
• On moving forward: Rebuilding isn't easy, and progress can be slow and uncertain, but new purpose and happiness are possible.
• On being patient with yourself: Self-forgiveness and looking ahead matter as much as immediate practical solutions.

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Closing Thought from Lyle:

“We should still try to find love and try to make stuff and try to do things even if they might not work... What else are you gonna do?... Fall in love, take chances, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I’m saying? Thank you, Coco, for sharing your story.” (65:57)

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Transcript

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[Coco]

Hello?

[Lyle]

Hi.

[Coco]

Hey, is this Lyle?

[Lyle]

This is. What is your name?

[Coco]

I'm Coco.

[Lyle]

Coco. What's up, Coco? How's life going? We're recording the show right now. Is that cool? Do you want to talk?

[Coco]

Yeah, I thought. I was hoping I'd be able to get on actually.

[Lyle]

Well, Coco, what's going on? How's life?

[Coco]

Well, longtime listener, first time caller, been waiting to say that for a hot minute.

[Lyle]

Rock and roll. Rock and roll.

[Coco]

I, I often joke that I'm your oldest listener because I'm almost 40, but I did hear somebody the other day who I think was 39, so that made me. That made me feel a bit better.

[Lyle]

I think it's general. I mean, it's a lot of, I think like 18 to 25 year olds, but there's people all over the, all over the bend. I mean, we had a. I totally talked to some lady who was like 50 something and some lady was like 60 something. So I would not say you're the oldest in the bunch.

[Coco]

Okay. Makes me feel better. Makes me feel better. Well, I've gotten the, the pleasure of seeing you live a few times and definitely I've seen you in Dallas twice and I saw you in Orlando.

[Lyle]

Oh, cool. Interesting. Two very. Not connected at all cities.

[Coco]

Yeah, no, not at all. I had a little condo in Florida about an hour away from Orlando. So I was always kind of looking and hoping and praying that you would somehow make an appearance there. So I had an excuse to drive out there.

[Lyle]

Well, yeah, I'm glad you came. Yeah, I was just thinking about those shows, not like those particular shows, but I guess that tour and yeah, it was, I mean, it was a good time. I feel very honored to have gotten to do any of that. But you know, enough about me. Coco, you said that you are been wanting to call onto the show for a while and if I wanted to give you the chance, if. Is there anything particular you wanted to call into the show to talk about? If not, it's cool. We can just shoot the shit.

[Coco]

Yeah, for sure, for sure. So a lot of life changes have, have happened for me since I saw you last, Lyle. So I am currently going through a divorce after 13 years of being married. So for a hot minute. So I feel like I have some wisdom maybe to offer in that department, maybe for some people. So. Yeah, and actually at one of your shows at one point you had asked, is there anybody in here that's been married for 10 years longer? And my husband and I at the time were the only ones that, that raised our hands. So I'm here to deliver some precautionary tales, maybe to some people who want to listen.

[Lyle]

Sure. What do you have to precaution us about?

[Coco]

Well, you know, Lyle, I feel like people are always kind of right, telling you what you need to do, how you need to approach going into this, how cautious you need to be, all of the questions that you need to ask, all of the time that you should wait. But I'm definitely, I'm an example of how you can do all of those things and it's still not work out.

[Lyle]

So, I mean, I guess, in short, I'm sure there's a lot of reasons and I don't know, you know, what you want to talk about, what you don't want to talk about, but why did it not work out after 13.

[Coco]

Years at this point? So I kind of, I kind of walked around for a long time carrying a lot of shame over exactly why or not really wanting to tell people what exactly happened. But I kind of told like one person. And so now it's just easy for me to just to trauma dump for, you know, with anybody who wants, who wants to hear. So I married a cocaine addict. So I've been, I've been dealing with that for the last four years, hoping and praying that maybe he would either, you know, come to his senses, maybe he would finally listen to me, maybe someday he would just wake up and just, you know, see, hey, this is like not, not a way to live. We have a child together, very successful in his career, making six figures pretty much mostly throughout the entirety of our marriage, which is, which is, which is awesome, which is great, which is great for him, was great for our family and, and all of that, but, you know, you can't make somebody else want that for themselves. And I mean, I've. I've been listening for such a long time there. There are so many people who call in and, and struggle with this, either that would, you know, personally or, or with a partner like I have. And yeah, I mean, you can, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, right? So, yeah, I think, I think being married for 13 years, having, you know, close to a decade of really fantastic memories and awesome experiences, I mean, part of the reason we, we had the, you know, condo in Florida is because he had been very successful in his career. And then the last four years of our marriage, I mean, it just, I mean, it, it went downhill quick. It went downhill down quick.

[Lyle]

I assume he was not addicted to cocaine when you met him?

[Coco]

Not as. Not that I. No, I don't think so. He was a frat boy, so there were some red flags there, Lyle, for sure. For sure.

[Lyle]

How did things begin to go down?

[Coco]

So I've spent a lot of time pinpointing maybe when it happened, when did it start? I didn't use with him or anything like that, and I'm not really sure when. When the. When the first time was. Again, this is a. This is a, you know, a frat kid from the suburbs, so, I mean, could have been at any point in time. Right. But I don't want to say it's a common trope, but there are definitely a group of people who, you know, started going to doctors for legitimate pain care management and kind of got in that. That loop of being on pain medication legitimately, but still in. In that. In that horrible loop. So I'm pretty sure it was after he left that world behind that he just kind of dove into the deep end of coke, honestly.

[Lyle]

And is that what you would say is the main issue that led to the divorce, or was there kind of anything else peripheral to that?

[Coco]

You know, I think that was a huge contributing factor to it. I mean, I know that, you know, drug addiction, you know, doesn't just stand alone. You know, it's. It's definitely. There's. There's other. Lots of other things at play that. That allow that to. To live and thrive. Definitely he had some challenges throughout his life. Throughout his life. He had a brother that. That died when. When they were kids, and that had a major impact on their family. My. My in laws are very, very conservative, very wasp, very. Let's. Let's brush things under the rug and let's pretend they didn't happen. So he definitely did not get the mental health care and support that he really needed early on in life. And so I definitely think that that was a major contributing factor to. Right. Just it set him right up for. For something. For something like that.

[Lyle]

And how recently did this happen that you guys got divorced?

[Coco]

So we separated in September. I told his parents. It got to a point one day I went into his office here at our house. I don't know why. Something said, just go look in this briefcase. Go look in this pocket. So I went in his office, put my hand in the first pocket, pulled out a handful of about 70 to 80 empty baggies of coke. Yeah, it was a lot. It wasn't like I found one, and I was like, damn you. I can't believe you did This, I mean, this was like one instant in a long line of things. But in terms of the divorce popping off, that, that really what set things off. So I found those, and I just kind of freaked out. And I had caught him in other ways before, never at that level, but it was at that time when I thought to myself, okay, holy shit. Like, this is beyond me. I can't handle this alone. There's just no way. There's no me talking to him this time. There's no me threatening him this time that in any way, shape or form is. Is going to be appropriate for, for handling something this big. So that was in May of last year. And so I, I called his parents, which, again, you know, there are people who, you know, don't. Don't really think that there's any problems. And if there are, we're gonna, we're gonna cover them on up. So I, I called his mom in tears saying, look, there's this problem and there's this, this big problem, and it's out of my control. I can't handle it anymore. I, I, quite frankly, I don't know what to do. You know, I'm embarrassed. I'm mortified that I'm coming to you, telling you about, you know, your son and this problem. But there was definitely a huge weight lifted off my shoulders because she immediately said to me, like, this makes so much sense with everything we've seen with him sleeping till 10, 11, noon. And, you know, again, we have, we have a child together.

[Lyle]

Yeah.

[Coco]

Yeah. We're trying to maintain a life, a family, and all this other, you know, all the other stuff that goes along with that. So that was in May of last year. And I mean, basically it was us staging interventions time and time and time again for him just to say no or say, I'll go and see a therapist. Not I'll go to treatment, Not I'll go and do inpatient or outpatient. He would never agree to anything like that. He would only ever settle for going to see a therapist once a week. Who, who told me at one point. And she lost all credibility to me when she said that, well, I think weed is just as bad as coke, so. And I was like, you know, I really not trusting any of the choices he's. He's making right now. But I was, I definitely wasn't confident in him and him wanting or maintaining sobriety on his, on his own. I was pretty clear. But so that it was just me and his parents. Time and time again. I spent time with his parents coming up with lists of different rehabs and pros and cons and, you know, just kind of a game plan and a game plan for our family and our life and our finances. Because between, you know, that time and basically the time that we split up, I mean, any money that we had just gone. He took out a hundred thousand dollar loan from his parents, which I didn't know about, which, again, big privilege. Totally understand that. That's a. That's a huge deal. I mean, my family could never do that for me and shouldn't. No, really, they were just enabling him at the end of the day. I mean, clearly. But I mean, by this time, I mean, he had not only just put our family in danger, but we were just, you know, close to financial ruin at that point. And it was. It was an everyday thing. I was. I was learning. We. So we're. We're basically through the divorce process right now. We're waiting for the divorce decree to be signed off on. But September 4th of this year will mark a year since I gave him the ultimatum. Actually, all of us did either either leave or go get help, and he refused to go get help. So he ended up. We have the condo in Florida, so he ended up taking off to go live there. And he was there for about three months. Don't really know what he was doing. I mean, I can only imagine. I mean, if coke's, you know, not hard to get in Texas, it's sure as hell not hard to get in Florida. So he spent three months out there doing God knows what while I stayed here with our. With our kid and. And did everything and paid for everything and, you know, all of the soccer mom things and football mom things and the lunches and me navigating a new. A new career and all of that while he just took off and did God knows what. Hmm.

[Lyle]

How old is your kid?

[Coco]

He's 13.

[Lyle]

Thirteen. Okay. So he's not. This is not like a little kid who doesn't know what's going on. This is like. Yeah. Yeah, man. So what's so, dude. I mean, like, so he just goes off for three months and he. He has no contact with. With your son?

[Coco]

He had minimal contact with him, but. But definitely nothing meaningful and, you know, just ceased to be, you know, a fixture in his everyday life. Like. Like he had known. Right, for. For all 13 years. And our son is our only child, and he's incredibly bright. I've just, you know, I only have one, so I've just sunk everything into him, for better or for worse. And I mean, in some ways, he handled it more maturely than I did, which was. Which is just incredible. But at one point before his dad took off, I took him on a walk and I said, hey. Like, it was definitely one of the hardest things I've ever done, if not the hardest thing I've ever had to do. And I had to tell him, hey, like, you know, you're noticing. I. Don't you notice your dad is sleeping till this. This time, and you notice that he's irritable, and you're noticing this, And. And there's a reason. And that's. Honey, because that's. That's because, you know, your dad is on drugs and Totally mortifying. Totally. I mean, just all of the things. Even though, of course, I mean, I know. I know now, and I knew then that it's not my fault. There's nothing that I'm doing wrong. But, you know, just having to admit that to your kid. And of course, I mean, his. His natural first. First question was, you know, what is it? And I. I just didn't want to tell him, and I didn't necessarily think that that was completely relevant that he needed to know. I know that, you know, if I were in his situation, I would be, of course, just, you know, completely curious about everything, but I just, you know, I didn. At that. At that time. I just thought, he needs to know the facts, and I don't, you know, need to tell him that his dad's a raging cokehead. This is. This is not the time yet. This is not the time yet. So he. He knew that things were. Were going on, and he. He knew things between his dad and I were not in a good place because, you know, we were fighting, we were arguing. You know, I would love to say that we were a couple where we never fought in front of our child. No, that's just. Absolutely not. Not tr. It got so bad that it would bleed, you know, into just anything that we were doing, you know, because it was just this. This dark cloud that hung over us for. For just so long. And so he didn't know for a while what. What his dad had been doing, but his dad took it upon himself to tell our son that. That. That. That his dad was dealing with. With a cocaine. Cocaine problem.

[Lyle]

So you told your son before your husband decided he wanted to tell him.

[Coco]

Right. Right.

[Lyle]

And then how did. What was it. What was the distance between that? Like, was there a period of time where, like, you wanted him to just tell your son directly and he wouldn't or like, how. How did that kind of play out?

[Coco]

I, you know, I just. I never. To me, I guess it wasn't so much about what it was. I didn't feel like that. That was like, super relevant. You know, I didn't think he needed to know that his dad had a coke problem versus pain pill problem versus whatever kind of problem. I just felt like it wasn't.

[Lyle]

Oh, sure. No, no, I guess I don't. I don't mean. Yeah, I know. I don't mean like what it was, but I guess like telling your son that he had some kind of drug problem.

[Coco]

Oh. Oh. So, I mean, that was. I mean that I. I spearheaded that, if that's kind of what you're asking. He. He had. Yeah. I mean, my. My ex husband had had no idea that I was going to tell him. And to be honest, I'm not even quite sure if he knew when I did because at the time he was still living here. You know, we were still holding out hope or we were still, you know, somehow thinking that, you know, the next intervention, he's. He's gonna. He's gonna do it this time. And, and, you know, this is somebody, you know, again, who has all of these resources at his disposal. You know, these people deal with this stuff all the time, and they don't have means to go to rehab. They don't have means to go take off to, you know, fucking Florida condo or whatever bullshit, you know. So, you know, I guess just in my heart of hearts was just hoping, you know, eventually he was going to say yes. I don't really. My only goal, I think, with telling our son was just somehow, you know, giving him some idea that, like, what you're seeing, you know, isn't normal and it's a result of something like this, you know, it's a result of drugs. And again, my. Our son is very mature and. And, you know, other than him saying like, what is it? His next. His next response, which still always blows me away, is in saying like, well, you know, he must be really struggling a lot if he feels like he has to do that. Like, whoa. Like, holy shit. I'm like, he gets it. And so I definitely feel like telling him was. Was the right. Was the right thing to do. But I also had a feeling like, you know, some shit's about to go down and I don't want to completely just blindside our child and make him, you know, I don't want to give him this false sense that things are great and, you know, he's hearing us Arguing and he's seeing his dad sleep and not work and all this stuff. I mean, I think the writing was on the wall for sure, but I definitely think that it was. It was the right thing to do to, you know, give him a heads up and in hopes of giving him some clarity. Right. So he. He knew. He knew about it. And. And again, this is like, from a period of, like from May to September of last year. So I finally tell him after finding those, you know, 70, 80 bags of Coke or whatever and going back and forth with his parents, just begging him to go get help and, you know, still seeing all the signs, nothing has changed. You know, like, it. I knew it was bad when the only time that we could get along was when he was high. I mean, the only time I would ever want to approach him about anything or ask him to do something was when he was high, because that was the only time that, you know, he was kind. That he was agreeable, that he would listen, you know, so it was this. This really, you know, sick cycle of, you know, but of just. But then also just noticing he's just going further and further off the deep end. It's. It's just. It's getting worse and worse. And so one day he would always fall asleep, obviously he would sleep to like, 11, 12, all that kind of stuff, which again, no judgment that, you know, we got a kid and a house and all that kind of crap, you know, and he fell asleep with his phone open. And I'm not a woman that's going to go through somebody's phone. I don't. We don't have each other's pass, whereas I just. I don't think that's any way to live. But I knew the app that he had been messaging with his dealer on and just being a dumb ass, you know, leaves it on his home screen, doesn't leave it password protected, which for some reason, I don't know why that bugged me. I guess it was just because it was like so flippant. It was just all like, I don't care. You know, I'm not even try to do you from any of this.

[Lyle]

Yeah, yeah, I could see why that would piss you off.

[Coco]

Mm. Like, come on, man. Like, you know, do some try to hide something? So for some reason my friends laugh about that. But that was a. For some reason, that was really a really sore spot for me. But I finally. I finally get in there and I see the messages to and from his dealer, and it's Lyle. It's every single Day, it's every day, it's every night, you know, like, I'm gonna go to the convenience store, grab, you know, a pack of cigarettes, I'm going to whatever, run the store or whatever. It was, it was, it was because he was meeting his dealer and it had, it had ramped up, but it was, it went even further than that. I found out that he was having drugs dropped off when we were at home and you know, the guy would roll through the alley, put it in the trash can, put it in the mailbox, hide it wherever. And I mean, this is again when me and our, you know, our 12 year old son are, you know, at home like doing homework, you know, just picked him up from school or, you know, whatever, you know, normal type of thing we're trying to do. And you know, we've got some drug dealer rolling by the house and dropping off drugs while we're there. So of course, of course that was super concerning. But then I think also the, the, the, the final, the straw that broke the camel's back for me because I didn't just find that, I found out that he had been arranging to have prostitutes to our home. So I mean, just completely in total violation of this, you know, sacred space that I thought that we had, despite, you know, this glaring issue. And that was it for me. I thought, well, you know, I can't, I can't be married to somebody who I'm just never going to let touch me again because that's just never going to happen. And that's it. Like, this has to be it, you know, and that was again, when I went to his parents, I said that and I didn't, to this day, as far as I know, they don't know either of those things. I didn't just didn't think it was relevant, didn't even want to go down, down that road, was embarrassed enough that I had to come out and tell them that their child was a coke addict, was not going to be the one that's like, oh, hey, and guess what, you know, he likes hookers too. You know, like, it was just, it was just something that I thought, you know, like this is it. I needed, I needed a, you know, the final nail in the coffin, I guess. And, and that's kind of what this is. So I called them up and I just said that was it and I can't do this anymore and your kids got to go get help or I'm leaving. I said, straight up, I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna pack up the Car. I'm gonna pack up our dog, uproot our kids life, and we're gonna go to the condo in Florida. So that, that, that was my goal. I obviously had not thought things through very well, but I wasn't thinking clearly through a lot of this stuff. I was just kind of, you know, like, it was like triage, you know, I just was trying to clean up whatever disaster or mess that I could in the best way that I could. With, With. No, with, you know, there's no guide out there, at least that I'm aware of. And I just said that that's it. And you know, they told me, hey, you know, why, why the hell do you need to leave? You know, like, your son's in school, you know, you have, you know, a life here. You know, why the hell are you the one leaving? You know, he needs to. I was like, okay, well, yeah, that makes sense. I was like, yeah, okay, well let's, you know, let's do that. So we gave him one final kind of push and he just refused to go get help and decided he was just gonna go take off to Florida. I mean, he had a place, you know, he, it was all set up, you know, and so he, he, he, he took the. Out, he took me out.

[Lyle]

And. And so he just goes down to Florida for three months. And then what happens when he comes back?

[Coco]

I mean, it was a total shit show. It was awful. It was absolutely awful. Here I am. So I decided to go into teaching. I'm an art teacher. For that first year though, I was just kind of all over the place teaching different, you know, grades and different subjects and just really trying to figure out like, what the hell I wanted to do with, with my life because I knew that this, this wasn't going to work. So he, I filed for divorce and he filed stuff with his attorney saying, I want to take our son to Florida. I'm going to move him to Florida. He's going to live here full time. Gonna go to school here. We, we have no family there. My parents had. Had a little beach house there for a little bit, which is why I got the condo. They sold it. We have no family there. There's no reason for us to be there. And I mean, that's not that like the schools are great in Texas, but they're definitely not in Florida. And so his, his goal was to just take our kid and kind of just go and, and live the life he wanted to live with. Again, of course, not having gotten any help, not went and, you know, any treatment or anything like that. So I file in October and he goes back and forth with his attorney in mind, trying to get all of this crap that he wants, thinking somehow that he is going to be able to take our son to Florida. And I guess somebody somewhere, you know, knocked some sense into him and said like, hey dude, like, you know that like you're not gonna be able to have like take Yalls kid and move him to Florida, you know, like you had a drug problem. And outside of that, they don't do that. They don't, they don't let, they don't let one parent, you know, take their child across the country and just keep them there, you know. And you know, he thought, well, our son's old enough, you know, he, he's allowed to choose where he wants to be. And unfortunately, and, and it was really heartbreaking. But my son really wanted to be with his dad. He wanted to go live in Florida, which I also can't blame him. I mean it's, you know, it's like you're on vac, you know, you're on vacation. All he knows is being there and being on vacation. Right. He doesn't know what it's like to live there. So it was, it was heartbreaking to be the parent doing everything day in, day out and you know, having a child who, you know, wants to go live with his dad, you know, arguing with me and saying if you knew it was in my best interest, which, you know, was interesting that you know, he phrased it that way. But you know, if you knew, if you really knew it was in my best interest, then you would let me go live with dad. And so that, that was also just totally heartbreaking to have, to have to go through too is, is, you know, feeling like the bad guy. You know, I'm sure my son's thinking I'm trying to keep him from his pad. Obviously that's not the case, but you know, hell yeah, I'm absolutely not gonna let him go live in Florida with his dad full time by him when I have no idea what's going on at all.

[Lyle]

Of course, of course.

[Coco]

So that, that was a major uphill battle. But the probably the hardest part for me throughout all of this is I had my in laws to really, you know, my to lean on. You know, I was very open and honest about once things went down and what I found and what their son was doing. You know, we became very close and you know, they were, they were a great support system for me. My, my parents didn't didn't live here. I don't really have any family in Texas. So, you know, having their support, especially during that time was just incredibly helpful. But somehow, some way, I don't, I don't know what the moment was or what the thing, what was said, but they just completely turned on me and went to supporting their son wholeheartedly, telling me, he doesn't have a problem, he's fine now. My, my mother in law called me and she's like, you know, you don't understand. He's fine now. He's fine. And I had to be like, look, listen, listen, listen, listen. I want that, I hope that, I pray for that. I hope that he, he never does it again. You know, in my heart of hearts that the day he left was, was the last day. But like, let's be, let's be pragmatic here. Let's, let's, you know, kind of like look at the facts and kind of like look at statistics, lady, and like, you know, figure out some things here, you know, like, yeah, it's, it's highly unlikely that he's clean and sober. And, and regardless of that, like, why the hell do you think it would be okay for him to uproot our child's life, take him out of mine and go move him to Florida, you know, and they, they could, they really never had any response to that. They completely stopped talking to me, have nothing to do with me. He. He told him that I had at several points, quote, manic episodes. Which just makes me laugh because I'm like, anytime I tell people that, they're like, well, yeah, I would have after all the shit that you dealt with. But also I'm like, dude, are you really. You, you, you go to a fucking therapist who thinks weed is just as bad as coke. Like, are you really qualified to make that assessment right now? Like, what a manic episode is, dude? Do you really know? So I don't really know exactly the narrative that he spun to his parents to make them just like, completely hate me over like a matter of like a few weeks. But so they just, they rally behind him. And obviously he comes from generational wealth, clearly, you know, and his dad's an attorney, so they just sunk all of their resources and their time and their effort into, you know, his legal case against me and doing whatever they, they could to make him seem like, you know, this superstar dad, you know, and, and you know, he was gone, like in Florida for those whole three months and just had basically nothing, nothing to do with him. I mean, he didn't send a dime. And here I was somebody who. We had a company together. And right as his addiction just progressed, you know, I backed myself away from that and realized, okay, I need to. Okay, now I need to get like a job on my own.

[Lyle]

You guys had. You guys had a business together?

[Coco]

Mm, we had. We had a few businesses together.

[Lyle]

Oh, really? Okay. But so. And was that your guys's full time thing together or did you each have your own kind of independent jobs?

[Coco]

Yeah, no, that was our. That was our thing together. That was our thing together.

[Lyle]

And how. I mean, so this. I mean, Jesus Christ. That's a whole other entirely crazy element to this. I mean, how were the businesses doing while he was kind of strung out?

[Coco]

Oh, terrible, terrible. I mean, he. He ran them all into the ground. I mean, we had one that was incredibly successful. And I mean, obviously, I'm not trying to dox myself, but I mean, it was. It was quite successful. I mean, it had garnered, like, you know, attention and like national media and, and all kinds of stuff. I mean, it was incredibly successful. And also, furthermore, it was. It was a. It was a product that a lot of people relied on, and it really actually like, helped them be able to manage their lives better. And. Yeah, and so I. I could obviously sense that he wasn't doing what he was supposed to be doing. And in his job, that was clear. Obviously, I worked with him. I could tell, I could just tell from the fact that, I mean, you know, he would just be at home all day and literally wouldn't do anything. He wouldn't do any work. He would hardly move from this chair. So, I mean, it was bad. Bad. But when I started to. When I started noticing that with the. With the companies and stuff, that's when I was like, okay, probably he's going to sink this ship on his own. There's only so much I can do to help. So maybe I need to, like, turn my efforts, focus my efforts somewhere else to, you know, come onto solid footing on my own without. Without any ties to him, basically.

[Lyle]

So you. You weren't even like, okay, let me try to kind of salvage my own, kind of make my own fight for this business that I'm a part of. You were like, you know what? I don't even want to put up that fight. I just want to get out of here.

[Coco]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I was like, I had always. I had always worried that if we ever had gotten a divorce, our lives were so intertwined that it was going to be just so freaking difficult to. To untangle and just even from the, from a professional standpoint. So I kind of, at that point I was whining. I still felt like, you know, I follow the writing on the wall. I saw that like where he was going, what he was doing, he, he had, he had no motivation whatsoever to, to, to do better, to be better, to you know, focus on these businesses, pull them up, whatever, or even just sustain where they were. So I thought, you know, I really, honestly any, any time I spend with him is not going to be productive. So like let's move on. Let's figure out what I want to do so I can be stable and I don't need to, I don't need to have anything that's tied to him. You know, I need to be self sufficient. So I really had just no frickin idea what I was going to do. I went to college, had my degree, I have a paralegal certificate. I thought okay, I'll go work at a law firm. Tried that. Have lots of friends that are attorneys. None of them, not one could find me a job, not a one. And I've always done art on the side. So that's when I thought okay, well let me, let me thinking about going into teaching.

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[Coco]

Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Coco]

Whoa, this thing moves.

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[Lyle]

Where did you like. Were you able to keep any savings from the divorce so that you weren't at least like, you know, against the wall?

[Coco]

Yes, it was, it was not a lot. It was not a lot. There were some. And I really tried not to ever touch any of the emergency funds that I had squirreled away over that time. That was kind of my goal. Even though I was definitely in an emergency type situation. I just, in my head, I'm always wondering like, I don't know, there could be something down the line that's way worse than that or it's even worse than that. So I ended up substitute teaching for. And I don't know how much. I don't know if people really know how little substitute teachers make, but it's anywhere between 110, 120 or $30 a day. So I mean, just, just so, so small. And I thought to myself, okay, well, you know, I can't get a job at a law firm. No one wants to hire me. I love kids, I love teaching. So, you know, I'm gonna just suffer through it, you know, my $11020 a day and you know, just see if I can, if I can get by, you know. And there were some definitely lean times. And I think about it Now I think about, you know, the amount that was in my bank account and just, holy, I don't know how I did that. And, and you know, I, I just, it's just even looking back on it, I'm like, I can't believe that was my life. But so, yeah, I put my focus on, you know, finding something for me and, you know, making, you know, my own money. And you, you hear about this too from women that have been, you know, married for a long time or that have been divorced after being stay at home moms for, for, you know, decades. You know, they say, you know, don't, you know, don't give up your own career and always have your own money. And, and, you know, it's, it's, it's solid advice. It's very smart advice. I thought I was, I was in that camp though, as somebody who had been working and, you know, I wasn't just sitting at home eating bonbons. And, you know, I was obviously an active parent, but I was an active, you know, financial participant in, you know, our life.

[Lyle]

So how are you doing now? This has been, I guess it's been about a year, a little over a year since.

[Coco]

Almost a year.

[Lyle]

Almost a year. So, I mean, how are you doing now? What's going on with you today?

[Coco]

So I see, I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel now. I think a lot of the hard part of the divorce is behind me, unfortunately, because, you know, my ex does come from a family that knows what they're doing with money and knows how to protect money. I got, I kind of got screwed in the, in the divorce. I really didn't get very much, if anything at all, which is funny to me because people, you know, oh, you know, you get child support and you get spousal support and you ever have every, you know, half of everything is yours. No, it's not, that is not true. If, if things are set up in a certain way and, and people know what they're doing. No, it's. You, you don't, you don't get half. So, you know, I was at least hoping that, you know, I would maybe get half of our house, you know, half of our assets. You know, he took a lot of things, sold them, hid them. So I didn't. And I never really had a good financial, like a clear financial picture of our assets because he was really good about, about hiding that stuff from me. So where I'm at now, I will, I have to be out of our house by the end of the Year. So that's, that's probably the biggest stressor on me right now is it's just kind of like every moment I feel like that there's this, this thing hanging over my head because I know that, like, I'm gonna be moving. And I've been in this house for seven years. And, you know, this is the house that, you know, my kid has been in first grade and, you know, he's in eighth grade, so he's going to be going into high school. So I had all of these, you know, just these pictures and, and stuff of, you know, of him coming home and, you know, high school and graduating and all of that stuff and being here in the student home base, obviously that's, that's out the window. So that's, that's the most difficult thing to grapple with right now. Definitely the financial aspect of things has been really difficult. But I have a job. I have teaching art, which is, which was what I wanted to be teaching. I'm almost a certified teacher. I had to jump through a lot of hoops for that too. And doing all of the coursework and all of the exams for that, while I'm going through all of this has been just immensely difficult. But I'm in a better place. But I'm also in a place where there's a lot of unknown for sure. And so that's, that's probably the scariest part for me. But I do, I, I try to remind myself that hopefully, more than likely, probably the worst is behind me. And, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be in this beautiful house anymore, and I'm not going to be living this idyllic life and, and all of that anymore. But I definitely have a lot more peace in my life. That's, that's for sure. That's for sure.

[Lyle]

So where is your son now? Does he live with you? Does he live with his dad? Is he kind of in between?

[Coco]

Well, I, I, you know, a lot of people too, I guess. You know, there was definitely a lot of assumptions made here. They thought, you know, drug addict parent, you know, clearly that parent's not going to get custody. And this, that and the other. I mean, no, it's not what happened. We is 50. 50 is 50. 50. I had evidence out the wazoo of everything. I was really smart about keeping everything and timelines and photos and just everything you can imagine. I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't disputed. There's just no way you could dispute that he had problems and he didn't deny it, but when it came down to it, it just, it didn't really matter. They're like 50, 50. You know, you get them 50 of the time. You get them 50 of the time. So, I mean, I guess in a sense that was a win from where we started from, which was where he just wanted to take him, you know, the whole time and then just move him to Florida and just never see me again. But, you know, I, I still, I still held up some hope that, you know, like, well, you know, maybe somebody somewhere would see, hey, like this dude had a raging coke problem for four years. You know, maybe he should go get help. And in my only confession was I said, I'm fine with 50 50. If you go get help, I will. I do not. I have no problem. I'm not going to fight you. We will do 50, 50. I'm not going to be petty. Just go get help. Just go to treatment.

[Lyle]

He didn't, he didn't do it.

[Coco]

Nope.

[Lyle]

So how, I mean, so how is the, how long have you guys been. 50. 50 for like a year.

[Coco]

Probably since the beginning of this year. So. Yeah, I mean.

[Lyle]

Yeah, how's that, how's that been? Like, what's the schedule? Is it like he's with you for a week? He's down in Florida for a week.

[Coco]

So he ended up moving back to Texas. So he's here now. But yeah, we do one week on and one week off. And that seems, that seems to, that seems to, to be, to be good for us.

[Lyle]

Oh, so you're. Your ex, your ex husband is back in Texas.

[Coco]

He is.

[Lyle]

Okay, cool. Okay. That's. That. I mean, that makes life, that makes life 300 times easier, you know?

[Coco]

Yes.

[Lyle]

I mean, my, my parents were divorced when I was growing up and it, the nice thing, it was nice that my dad only lived like, my dad lived like a 15, 20 minute drive from my mom, you know, so like we saw. I don't. I feel like I got to see both of them. You know, I mean, I mainly lived with my mom. That was kind of like that place was the place I had what was home. But, you know, both my parents were really in my life. I can't imagine what that would have been like if my dad lived in like, you know, a different state or something. It'd be tough.

[Coco]

Yeah. Which I dealt with. So my, when my parents divorced, same as you, they, they lived very, very close, probably leaving less than, you know, 10 minutes away from each other. And then my, my dad did end up moving out of state when I turned 12. So that. That was a huge adjustment for me that I. I mean, I don't think I ever really recovered from, you know, so. Yeah, I mean, right. Having. Having him close by made things immensely easier and didn't know that he actually ended up moving here because that was. That was hidden from me. But, yeah, so he's here now, and we're about 10 minutes away from each other, which is great for our kid and it is very convenient for. For us. And, yeah, I mean, I think. I think we're managing okay. I think our son has adjusted to the schedule. He doesn't sit there and say, oh, go. I want you to go. Let me live with my dad. Why won't you let me live with my dad? And that's also very helpful for me. And that was really hard for me to deal with for months on end. So I think that we're in. We're in a more stable place. I mean, we're able to communicate, we're able to get along. And, I mean, we're actually probably in a much better spot than I ever thought we would be, you know, this far into things. But, like, if you asked me if I still thought if he was using, I would say, yeah, absolutely. In fact, when we had our mediation and stuff, that was one thing that he really did not want to have. He did not want us to be able to randomly drug test each other. And, you know, my dad said, well, that, that. There you go. I mean, that should tell you everything that you need to know. If you had any doubt about his sobriety, you shouldn't anymore if he's just completely unwilling to take any kind of drug test.

[Lyle]

So are you planning on trying to, like, date again at all?

[Coco]

Yes, I am. I've went on a few dates. The one person I really liked ended up moving away to Colorado. So there's. There's that. But, you know, I. I met my husband before dating apps were like a thing. So just navigating that whole world is just. Just totally foreign to me. You know, having good dates and thinking that they went well and somebody saying, oh, it was a great time. Let's hang out again, and then you never talk to somebody again. That's.

[Lyle]

It's true. It's a whole thing.

[Coco]

It is, yeah. Now, now, now I'm learning. But, yeah, no, it's been exciting. And, you know, I was really miserable for four years, so. And, you know, our marriage was done way before I filed for divorce. I mean, that's just. Just. That's just how it is. And, you know, I don't want to be miserable forever. I also just like people. I just enjoy the process of, you know, meeting somebody new, learning about somebody, seeing things from a different point of view. You know, I've definitely had some, you know, moments of commiseration with other divorced people, which were better for worse. I don't know. I. I don't love going on a date. And then the whole date is just us talking about our divorce situation.

[Lyle]

Right.

[Coco]

So that's. That's. That's. That's been interesting, for sure. But, yeah, no, I mean, I want to be happy. I know I'll be happy again. I have no idea if I'll ever get married again because, you know, like, how we started this call is, you know, you can do everything right, and things just still just not work out. But, yeah, I mean, I still believe in love. I'm sure that there is somebody out there somewhere. And, you know, I am lucky in the sense that, you know, I am still seemingly, you know, young. So, you know, had I. Had. I waited another 10 years, this would have been a lot more difficult, you know, so I'm. I'm. I'm definitely. It's. It's. It's a moment in time where it's a lot. There's a lot of uncertainty there. It's just. There's so much uncertainty. But there was a lot of uncertainty when I was married, and I was going through all of the things I was going through with him, you know, so that's just kind of what I have to, you know, remind myself. But, you know, it. This. This time also, too, isn't. Isn't, you know, about me. You know, I'm not. Nothing is ever going to, you know, supersede anything that needs to be done for my son or anything that he has going on. But I do think, you know, it is important for him, you know, to see his parent Right. Happy, but also knowing that, like, you know, your mom can have a life outside of her family. So.

[Lyle]

Absolutely.

[Coco]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Lyle]

This was. I felt like I've been listening to my own podcast for the fast 15 minutes. I really. I sincerely. I really. I really appreciate you telling your story and going in depth on it, because I think. I'm sure that there will be people who resonate with it. And it sounded like it was very, very difficult. And you're still kind of, like, you know, optimistic of being able to put together the pieces and move forward after, you know, the disillusion of something that's been kind of your like day to day life over the last 13 years. It's tough. I mean, it's emblematic of like life just fucking throws things at you and disruptions. And as you said, as you said. And it's a very interesting thing that you said that you could do everything right. You could be patient, you could. It's not like you met this guy at a gas station and you got married that night. And it's not like it was like. Oh, it was, it was not like the writing was on the wall when you guys met, you know, it's like you did everything right as you said and things still don't work out. And dude, that's just. That's just life, you know? That's just fucking life. It's just fucking life. And I think it's something to like just learn, I guess, just learn how to, how to take and move on from the best that you can.

[Coco]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Lyle]

So I appreciate you sharing this, the story with us, Coco. Right?

[Coco]

Yes, yes, no, and I really appreciate the time. I. Again, I've been listening to you for a long time. We've met actually. And I told you, you pulled me out of COVID because I was listening to you back in the day on Reddit in my 3 hour long bath that I would take because there wasn't shit else to. And you know, this, I mean, really, I was kind of going. I was going through this whole process, you know, then, you know, so you've, you've really seen me through a dark time in my life, Lyle.

[Lyle]

When did we met in person in or in Orlando or in Dallas?

[Coco]

We did. And, and, and with my ex, actually.

[Lyle]

Whoa. Crazy. You know, it's funny. It is funny. I'm like, I don't like the idea of. I'm like, oh, okay. I probably met these two people and I took a picture with them and they walked away. And the whole time I had no idea, like, of all there. There had was so much lore between them that would happen. It's like I only had like a little screenshot of like that moment where I'm like, oh, this is a couple and they're together. And that's. Man, that's amazing. That's great. But it's. I only had. That's the. And you know, whatever. You walk around life like that, you just have little screenshots of what appears to be and you have no idea about fucking. It's really wild. It's really. The more I do this show and the more I just live my life in General. Probably more related to just living my life in general. The more agnostic I become about just absolutely everything about ideas I have of people or about life or about what I see in the world. I've just become more. More and more agnostic as I. As I'm truly understanding how little I can actually gleam from the screenshots of everything that I see, you know, day to day and through life. It's interesting to think about, but you take it all in and you just, I guess, keep moving forward in however positive a way you can.

[Coco]

Yeah, yeah. Just. Yeah, keep moving. Yeah, I definitely have those times where I'm just like, dear Lord, you know, like, I just want to crawl into a hole and. And die. But no, I think one of. I definitely think I'm, you know, toxicly optimistic. I don't know if that's the right term.

[Lyle]

I don't think you. I don't think that it's toxic to be optimistic.

[Coco]

Okay, good.

[Lyle]

Well, listen, Coco, is there. Is there anything else that, you know, I know we talked for a while is. But is there any other kind of, like, aspect of this or like, anything at all that you want to. Want to cover before we go?

[Coco]

No, I just. I just want to say thank you. I want to say if anybody out there is struggling, you know, and you have a support system and you have means to go get help, do it. Do it. There is. There is something so much better on the other side that you just. You can't even imagine, but you'll never know. You'll never know if you don't. If you don't make that leap and you don't try and attempt to be the best version of yourself.

[Lyle]

Coco, thank you very, very, very much for sharing the story with us and the rest of the. And the listeners. I really appreciate it.

[Coco]

Thank you so much. Geck. Geck. Bless you.

[Lyle]

Bye, Coco.

[Coco]

Thanks. Bye. Bye.

[Lyle]

That was really fascinating. That was a really interesting call. And that woman was really, really, really smart. She. She, like. I loved the way that she told her story. I was thinking that while she was talking, I liked the way she told her story. She was very. Had a nice grass grasp on the situation. And I, you know, she really took us through the. I appreciate she. That was. She was very generous with how, in depth, she took us through all the different aspects of that story, both kind of like, logistically and emotionally. So I appreciate, I appreciated that. And yeah, the idea that you can kind of do everything right and things will still go wrong. It's interesting, right, because she's Correct. She's correct about that with all endeavors, right? And we. And that's something you have to, I think, come to terms with in life, whether it's a relationship or a business or a moving, a play or whatever, whatever life thing is. The thing is, it's true. You could do everything right and things will still not work. And I think accepting that and deciding that it's still, I guess, worth it. I don't know, I might be taking the wrong thing away from this cautionary tale, as she called it, but the idea that, yes, you might do everything correct and it still won't work out, but I guess you should just do it anyway. That's what I think. Just do it anyway. Why not? You know, what are you. I mean, because what, what other option do you have? It's like, like I was talking to someone about this recently, like, stoicism. I used to be really into stoicism. And then I realized stoicism is kind of just this ultimate act of avoidance. And it's this ultimate attempt of like fully just diminishing. Like, let me, let me diminish, not do anything that might hurt my feelings. That's not really what I think stoicism is, but I think there's something about like surrendering to the true helplessness that you have as a person, to the events that happen to you in your life and realizing that, yeah, you could do everything right and it's still. Could fuck up, but we should still do things. We should still try to find love and try to make stuff and try to do things even if they might not work or they might name them and they might. They might not only not work, they might fuck us up, they might kill us or leave us homeless or give us cancer. I don't know. I'm. I'm. But we should still do. What else are you gonna do, you know, do nothing you do. Do not. You gotta do, you know, do something, fall in love, take chances, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I'm saying? Thank you, Coco, for sharing your story. I appreciate it.

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[Emily Maitlis and John Sopel]

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[Coco]

Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Coco]

Whoa, this thing moves.

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[Lyle]

Hello.

[Calum]

Yo. Hello.

[Lyle]

How's it going?

[Calum]

It's going good. How are you?

[Lyle]

I'm hanging out. I think I smell like shit, but that's fine. I haven't showered yet today because I know I was gonna put on this paint and so I was like, I'm not gonna shower just to shower again. Anyway, that's. I know you found that very interesting. What did you say your name was? I just said It.

[Calum]

Calum.

[Lyle]

Calum. What's up, Caleb? What you want to talk about today?

[Calum]

I wanted to talk about how you can have any job in the world that you want. Yeah, I used to work as a construction worker doing remodels in like, stinky basements and stuff like that. And I really hated it. So I just started applying at state parks and it. It worked. And I'm currently in a state park right now. Sitting by a waterfall, counting how many people cross a bridge.

[Lyle]

Do you have to do anything or you just kind of sit by the waterfall?

[Calum]

Right now I'm just sitting by the waterfall. Like other days I do other stuff, but like, just sitting by the waterfall.

[Lyle]

Now that's pretty good. What do you normally do on a day like this? In this job?

[Calum]

I do a lot of stuff. I do like, trail maintenance. I like, keep a trail nice and clean and cool. Or I do like chainsaw work where I'll go and thin trees out, stuff like that.

[Lyle]

That's pretty cool. So you. Do you believe you can get any job that you want?

[Calum]

I think you can get. I believe that you just gotta try for it. I mean, I got this job and I love it. And I'm sure that you enjoy your job from time to time.

[Lyle]

Did you think that you wouldn't be able to get this job?

[Calum]

No, it was just a shot in the dark. I just kind of did it out of just boredom pretty much, and I got it.

[Lyle]

And you're counting people who walk by?

[Calum]

Yeah. Last Tuesday here in the park, they installed a really big bridge with a crane across the river and watch how many people cross it for data for the park.

[Lyle]

Are you formally counting anything or are you just gonna go back and they're gonna be like, how many people crossed it? And you're gonna be like, seemed like a lot.

[Calum]

I am counting formally.

[Lyle]

You're counting values on. Sorry, you. You cut out a little bit. You're counting formally.

[Calum]

Formally hunting.

[Lyle]

Oh, you cut out one more time. Say it again.

[Calum]

I'm formally counting.

[Lyle]

So how are you? So you're talking to me while you're counting?

[Calum]

I'm count. Someone's on the bridge right now and I just counted them.

[Lyle]

How are you? Well, you have a little clicker, right?

[Calum]

No, I just write a little tally on my piece of paper.

[Lyle]

So you're talking to me right now while you tally up all the people that cross the bridge?

[Calum]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Lyle]

Are there a lot of how many people cross the bridge per minute?

[Calum]

Not a lot so far. I've been out here for about 40 minutes. I've gotten 13 people.

[Lyle]

Okay. All right. That's not that bad. I thought this was, like, a. Okay, that. All right. That now sounds like it's easier to do while you talk on the phone with me.

[Calum]

It's very easy to do.

[Lyle]

What job did you want when you were a child?

[Calum]

I wanted to own a candy factory.

[Lyle]

Like Willy Wonka.

[Calum]

Just like Willy Wonka.

[Lyle]

I was talking with my friends last night. I think Willy Wonka would have absolutely been, like, a Republican.

[Calum]

You think so?

[Lyle]

I think.

[Calum]

I think he would have been Green Party.

[Lyle]

I think he would have been, like, a Trump guy for sure, because. Right, because he's probably, like. He likes big business. He doesn't want the Oompa Loompas to unionize. He would probably be like an Elon Musk type character.

[Calum]

That's probably true. I bet if there was a tornado, he would make all of the Oompa Loompas keep working.

[Lyle]

Did that happen in one of the movies?

[Calum]

No, that happened at an Amazon warehouse once.

[Lyle]

So you're counting. What are they gonna do with this, like, data of how many people cross this bridge?

[Calum]

Well, it's actually pretty dramatic. Some. Some people at this state park really did not want this bridge at all. There's some drama behind it, but it. It's a pretty cool bridge. I think it helps climbers get access to a cool part of the park, but the climbers kind of wanted it to be an exclusive climber area. So now any pedestrian can do this, cross it. So we're trying to see how much that's true. And so far, no pedestrian has gone really over there.

[Coco]

They just kind of take pictures with.

[Calum]

The bridge and then leave.

[Lyle]

Do you like animals?

[Calum]

Yes.

[Lyle]

What kind of animals are hanging out at this park that you like?

[Calum]

I've seen a lot of deer and elk. I got rattled at by a rattlesnake last week for the first time. It was pretty cool. Other than that, there's some, like, elusive ones that I've not seen yet, like bears and porcupines.

[Lyle]

Are bears and porcupines known to inhabit this park?

[Calum]

They are. Bears come in here during the night and they knock over all the trash cans.

[Lyle]

Is there any. Is there any animal that you would be scared of? Like, if you saw a bear, would that freak you out?

[Calum]

No. I think what would scare me is a moose.

[Lyle]

Why a moose, not a bear?

[Calum]

They're. They're scarier. They. They. They're aggressive for no reason. They just. They just kill people out here. Like, I live in Colorado and think mayor of A town I live by got killed by moose last year or the year before. They just. They just do it for fun.

[Lyle]

Is this the job you want for the rest of your life? Would you be extremely happy if I told you this is what you're going to do for the rest of your life? Would you, would that make you extremely happy?

[Coco]

It would.

[Calum]

It would make me pretty happy. I am. I'm going to a class this winter for. For wilderness emt. I want to do this environment. But I quite like this job you.

[Lyle]

Cut out when you were talking just now.

[Calum]

Oh, I'm sorry. I like this job, but I would like to do search and rescue.

[Lyle]

Ah, okay. Oh, for like people.

[Calum]

Yeah.

[Lyle]

How old are you? Can I ask?

[Calum]

I'm 20.

[Lyle]

Oh, okay. You're a young man.

[Calum]

I'm a young man.

[Lyle]

Okay. Oh yeah. You got tons of time to do a bunch of shit.

[Calum]

Yeah.

[Lyle]

Do you think you could, if you had to, that you could fight a bear and win?

[Calum]

Yes.

[Lyle]

Are you being serious? That was a serious question.

[Calum]

Yeah, I'm serious.

[Lyle]

How tall are you?

[Calum]

If it was. If I'm six' one.

[Lyle]

Okay. How. What's your build?

[Calum]

Like? Medium.

[Lyle]

What do you bench?

[Calum]

I don't bench.

[Lyle]

You don't bench?

[Calum]

No.

[Lyle]

How are you gonna fight a bear if you don't have muscles?

[Calum]

Well, I wouldn't say I don't have muscles, I just don't bench when I'm at the gym.

[Lyle]

What do you do?

[Calum]

Just like the other stuff.

[Lyle]

Like you like run on a treadmill?

[Calum]

Yeah, I do that. And like I usually use like dumbbells and stuff because my gym doesn't really have bars.

[Lyle]

Okay, but do you do like, do you do like a chest press with the dumbbells?

[Calum]

Yeah.

[Lyle]

What go with a chest press?

[Calum]

I guess, I guess. 160.

[Lyle]

You chest, you add. You chest press using two 80 pound dumbbells.

[Calum]

Yeah.

[Lyle]

That's pretty damn good.

[Calum]

I think I can beat a bear.

[Lyle]

I don't. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. That's a lot. Yeah, maybe you could. Six one's pretty good. You could, you could be like a small bear.

[Coco]

Yeah.

[Calum]

Maybe like an adolescent.

[Lyle]

Yeah. But then you, but then if you, if you beat up a baby bear, the mom bear is going to come and kill you.

[Calum]

Well, yeah.

[Lyle]

Do people still have picnics at the park?

[Calum]

Yeah, it's actually been a big problem here.

[Lyle]

Why is that a problem? Isn't that what parks are for?

[Calum]

Well, it's, there is like picnic areas but. But there's a fire ban right now and people keep Starting fires to cook meat.

[Lyle]

You know who doesn't like fires?

[Calum]

Bears.

[Lyle]

But there's a specific bear.

[Calum]

Oh, Smokey.

[Lyle]

Smokey Bear. Smokey Bear.

[Calum]

Yes.

[Lyle]

What do you think about Yogi Bear?

[Calum]

I'd win.

[Lyle]

No, I know. Not if you could beat him up. Like, what do you think about him? Just, like, as a concept.

[Calum]

Oh. Oh. You know, he's pretty cool. I. I guess. Yeah. I respect his desire to steal from people's picnic baskets.

[Lyle]

Have you ever watched the Yogi Bear movie? I think it was like in 2000. Hold on, let me look this up. Yogi Bear movie 2010. That's old, man. The Yogi Bear 3D movies was 15 years old. That's crazy.

[Calum]

I think I do remember that. I don't. I don't remember much about it, but I. I think I remember it.

[Lyle]

What's your name again?

[Calum]

Caleb.

[Lyle]

Calum. Calum, is there anything else that I can do for you out of this conversation, or do you feel like it was. It was what you wanted?

[Calum]

It's pretty much what I wanted, but I was curious. I'm coming to New York in a bit and I was wondering if you have a specific day you go to the park?

[Lyle]

No, I just kind of do it. It's not a thing that I pre meditate or advertise. I just kind of do it.

[Calum]

Yeah. Okay. But I hope I see you there. I'll see you.

[Lyle]

If I see you there, I'll see you.

[Calum]

Yeah.

[Lyle]

Because I know you like parks.

[Calum]

All right. I do like parks.

[Lyle]

Is there anything else you want to say to the people, the computer, before we go? Caleb.

[Calum]

Quit your job unless you like it.

[Lyle]

Thanks for calling, Calum.

[Calum]

Thank you. Bye.

[Lyle]

See, Calum has good optimism. And that is often actually what you need. You need an unbridled delusion that kind of honestly goes into what I was ranting about at the end of the last call, which is that you need unbridled delusion and optimism to even have a fighting chance. So shout out to Calum for the inspiration he provides by simply being who he is.

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[Emily Maitlis and John Sopel]

Take a deep dive into the stories making the news headlines across the world. The News Agents we're not just here to tell you what's happening, but why from me, Emily Maitlis and me John Soto with Global's award winning podcast the News Agents Dropping daily covering everything you need to know about politics and current affairs and The News Agents USA listening to the News Agents on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search the News Agents to start listening.

[Lyle]

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[Gemma Spake]

This is an iHeart podcast.