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- [00:01]
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- [01:55]
Lyle
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- [02:02]
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- [02:30]
Mo
Hello?
- [02:31]
Lyle
Oh hey, Lyle.
- [02:33]
Mo
What's up man? How you doing?
- [02:35]
Lyle
I'm all right. What's it called? I was, you know, had a little bit of time to myself. I got like a month and a half off of work and I got a, you know, apartment to myself and a lot of free time. And at first I was having a good time, and then existential dread, you know, started to set in.
- [02:57]
Mo
Yes. All right, let's talk. Let's talk about this. Let's talk about this. And, you know, last episode of this podcast, I went on a whole rant about how solving your problem or about how. What is it that talking about your problems doesn't really solve them. But I am curious from your perspective, I want to know about your existential crisis, because I'm also in the midst of a strong existential crisis, and I don't know why, but something about your voice. Mo, you seem like a normal human being that I can connect with, and so I want to know. I want to know about your existential crisis and about your life.
- [03:46]
Lyle
Sure. So, you know, since I have a lot of free time to think, I just want to preface this whole thing real quick with so I do see a therapist, and I do see a therapist regularly. And I know you're not, you know, like a certified therapist, and, you know, I was just hoping to get some, like, you know, perspective on some things. And I think it all kind of goes back to, I think, two callers ago. You were talking about how you feel lonely at times, right?
- [04:17]
Mo
Yes. Yes, I was talking about that.
- [04:21]
Lyle
Yeah. So, you know, for a long, long time, I've been dealing with depression and anxiety. And, you know, very recently, I, you know, have had a very drastically different view on how I view my depression, anxiety, like, a lot of, you know, difficult moments in life. I'm learning the gifts that they have to offer. Right. You know, my last relationship was, like, four years ago. And, you know, throughout these past four years, you know, I felt differently about loneliness as of right now. You know, I have my, like, spikes of loneliness, but they're kind of. They're filled with like. Like a sweet sadness, you know, where I'm like, okay, I'm lonely. You know, why? What is it? I'm seeking out of a connection, you know, is it, like, for somebody to hold me and tell me, you know, that, you know, that I'm. I'm good enough, that, you know, I'm doing a great job? Well, I can. I can validate myself, you know, get the validation from inside. So the gift that loneliness is offering is, you know, self love, you know, self validation. Right. Pat yourself on the back. But, you know, but I. I don't know. Like, I guess because I have all this free time and I'm not occupied, there's no action that's Being taken, you know, I'm just like, you know, going out for a run, going out for a walk, you know, that, like, loneliness. Like, I'm. I don't know, I just don't feel, like, a sense of urgency to, like, I don't know, like, tackle it. And I'm having a good time most of the time, so I'm just like, what's the need for. To go out there and, like, actively look for a partner? You know, there's no, you know, I just don't feel like putting in the effort there. And at the same time, like, I don't want to be alone either. You know what I mean?
- [06:28]
Mo
Yes, I do know what you mean. Yeah. I mean, idle, idle hands belong to the devil. And the devil comes in many forms. Yeah. Yeah. Lately the devil for me is coming in the form of looking at Reddit and seeing a bunch of, like, just insane things every day on there. But, yeah, I mean, you got to do something, or else, I mean, that's what life is really. Life is trying to fill your day with things to do so that you don't die now. I mean, not. Not so that you don't die, so that you don't get depressed and existential now. It's kind of a privilege to be depressed and existential in the sense that for, like, most of the world, the thing that they focus on, that they distract them. For most of the world, the thing that people are distracting themselves with so they don't feel existential is, is their own pure survival. You know, that's like what most people distract themselves with. If you're lucky, you take some sense of pride in whatever it is that you do to. To survive, or maybe whatever it is you do to survive is supplemented by other things that, that distract you, like, you know, friends and family and a dog or whatever the fuck. But, yeah, I mean, that's. It's. It's just. Life is just trying to find ways to not think.
- [08:15]
Lyle
Right. And, you know, like, so much of my life is just like, you know, it's not like, you know, I'm like, well off, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm doing really well financially because I'm not. I'm, like, fairly broke most of the time. Right. But there's so much good about my life or my social network, you know, my friends. I've known everybody for such a long time, like 18, 15 years, and I've a lot of really solid friendships. My network is really supportive and loving all the time and really understanding. You Know, great. And. But like, when it comes to, like, a search for a partner. Right. You know, that's like the difficult part for me where I don't, you know, I'm not in school, you know, I'm not in college or anything. So there's. That avenue is like, blocked off. Right. My job is like, it's a pretty messed up job. So, you know, there's no. There's no, you know, woman around to interact with there. Right. So that avenue is blocked off. And in the past, like, my relationships, you know, that ones I had, they've just been friendships that like, all of a sudden, like, transition into a relationship, you know, And I. I never really had to do any work, you know, in regards to, like, courtship and. Right, right. And now the only avenue that's open is online dating, you know?
- [09:41]
Mo
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [09:45]
Lyle
You know, my therapist been telling me, my friends have been telling me, like, hey, you got to do this thing right? You got to give it a shot. All right, let me see what this whole thing is about. And almost immediately, it was like, anxiety inducing. You know, it sucks. I've never really. Yeah. I could never really articulate what it is precisely that I don't like about online dating. You know, I'd say things like, oh, like, people just go to you in the middle of conversation. That's frustrating. Or I don't like how fast paced everything is, you know, like, I'm just used to, like, slow pace development of into, like a intimate relationship, you know, from a friendship. And everybody has this sense of urgency on these dating apps where it's just like one after the other, swipe through, swipe through. And, you know, I see it's not only anxiety inducing, I just see a lot of problem with it. You know, it feels like, you know, like, how do I explain it? Like, societies, like, everybody like the idea that they have a falling in love. Like, for example, like, you wake up, you walk out the door, and you're walking down the street, and you sip and fall and like, a girl helps you up or you help up a girl that's fallen down, right. And you guys, like, you know, make eye contact and you guys ask for each other's name. You guys go out to a coffee shop. You guys, like, meet up over the course of the next couple of weeks, months, figuring out, like, each of his values, like, what are you about? Where are you going? Who do you want to be? You know, and it's like a slow, steady process of falling in love. Right. And there's none of That, I mean, I think that's beautiful, right? And it's high risk and it's beautiful. And online dating just strips you, all of that stuff, right? Of the slow sweetness of falling in love.
- [11:45]
Mo
It's just like, oh, this person, like, value necessarily. Because, I mean, online online dating is just a way of meeting people. You know what I mean? So, look, it's very possible that you can meet a lady on the dating apps and you guys start talking, and then, you know, maybe you start texting back and forth and, you know, you just become friends. The way that, like, I mean, everyone forget about online dating specifically. I mean, everyone's like, meeting each other and finding each other on fucking Discord and Instagram and all these things. And it's just like, you know, you could pretty easily find. Not easily, but, you know, you could find someone on these apps that you just start kind of gradually, you know, texting or being with, right? And here's the. Here's the thing. I saw this in a Reddit comment a long time ago. I'm gonna quote a Reddit comment, okay, that. That dating is for people who are. Dating is for people who are either patient or lucky. So you have to be one of those two things. And if you're not, you will. You will fail. So you either, you either have to be super fucking lucky to find love, or you have to be super patient. And by being super patient, it means, like, being able to very easily brush off, you know, all the common things, like getting. Getting ghosted, getting rejected, not getting any matches, whatever it is. Like, you have to just be able to keep brushing it off and just grind and for. For years, you know, like actual true patience. Like for years and not getting frustrated or you just get super lucky and you immediately log in. The first person you meet up with off the app. You. You're attracted to them, they're attracted to you, you like each other as human beings and you get married, you can. Or you can be super lucky if you're lucky. If you're lucky, you're lucky. You know what I mean? But if you're not lucky, you're just. Patience. Patience is the only other answer to that. Because, look, it's like, it's like as everything, if you continue to put effort into the search and it doesn't drive you completely insane, and you just keep being patient and you keep trying. Eventually it's like you find something. I mean, we had a guy on the podcast come in here talking about how he went on over a hundred dates before he found the, the woman who he's currently having a kid with. So, you know, it might take a hundred dates.
- [14:37]
Lyle
So. So, you know, I, I kind of have like a. I'm not saying in and of itself that's like a problem that a person is going on 100 days and that's how somehow, like morally, Morally or ethically incorrect in some way? I'm not saying that at all. Right. For me personally, the issue I have with that. Right. Is when you're swiping through person after person, there's this constant idea in the back of your mind. You might not consciously acknowledge it, but let's say like you're in the middle of a conversation with a girl online that you matched with, right? And things are just going phenomenal. You're like, oh man, we have so much in common. Like, she's phenomenal. We have. Our political values are aligned, you know, our, you know, our. Etc. Etc is aligned. But in the back of your mind, you know that any second now I might match with somebody who's maybe slightly more attractive than her or maybe slightly more in tune with me, right?
- [15:38]
Mo
Sure.
- [15:38]
Lyle
And online dating in that way perpetuates the idea that love is about idealization. We're looking for a perfect person. It's about idealization. It's not about acceptance. The value of like going on less dates, interacting with less people is that slow, sweet grind of getting to figure somebody out. There's so much acceptance in that, right? Because along the way you're like, man, I don't see eye to eye with her on these views, but she's so great in so many other ways. But I love her. She's great, right? And it becomes about acceptance, which I personally think is what love out to be about at least, right? So the going through iteration after iteration of people, it's like, you know, it's like an axis or something, right? Like if you look at, if you look at like, like back in my country, right, Whenever we went over to somebody's house and where's, where's your country? I was born in Pakistan.
- [16:49]
Mo
Okay, cool.
- [16:51]
Lyle
In a very, very, very small town, you know, no one's heard of it and all. So it's like when I, when I was growing up, man, we were like, we were. Forget about cars. We were like riding around on like buggies and horses and stuff, right? And when you go over to somebody's house and they give you a Coca Cola in a bottle, it was like, whoa, like there. This is special, right? This is a special, special thing, right? It's not like every night in Pakistan we were having like a can of Coke with our, with our dinner or whatever. Right now we have like an axis of Coca Cola. You can get Coca Cola any time. Right. And it's, it kind of loses its like, I don't know, like there's an axis of it. It loses its like specialness to it. Right.
- [17:38]
Mo
Of course.
- [17:38]
Lyle
The way I see online dating, if I can, it's like an axis of sexuality that's on top of it, commodified through a capitalist system. Right, yeah. And before I get to the. Even that direction now.
- [17:53]
Mo
God. Go ahead, go ahead. You're speaking. Look, look, look. You're speaking total fat. Look, I have agreed with everything that you have said so far. I have things to add on top of it, but go ahead, please.
- [18:07]
Lyle
Yeah, so, you know, because in this system, the primary motive for anything like take education, healthcare, it's for profit. It's for the bottom line. Online dating is no different. Like, I'm not gonna pretend that like companies like Tin and Hinger, Hinge and Tinder are out there and their primary motive is to help me fall in love.
- [18:31]
Mo
Because it's not. Yes, of course not.
- [18:35]
Lyle
It's for me to engage as much as possible in their app so they can sell my data to advertisers, right? So it's not in their best interest for me to find love. And you know, there was this Harvard professor that did a study on connection and love and online dating, and there was a journalist that asked that Harvard professor and a sex worker the same exact question. Do the algorithms work? Both of them said the same exact thing. No, they do not. I found that kind of, you know, funny and interesting.
- [19:12]
Mo
Well, look, look, look, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Here's. Here's everything you, Everything you said is correct. Yes. These apps are incentivized to make you want to continue to engage with them.
- [19:25]
Lyle
Right?
- [19:26]
Mo
Yes, it's a for profit system, all these things, but, but also, at the end of the day, look, man, it's, it's a. For a lot of people, a lot of people get on the apps for sure, but for a lot of people, it's a beneficiary transaction. You know, the company makes money cuz they engage with you and send you ads. And I know 8 billion people who fucking met their significant other on Tinder or Hinge. And so to completely, utterly disregard any positive value that these apps can bring is a mistake. But I think, I think what you said about love being about acceptance instead of idealization is also a hundred percent correct. And you know, it's interesting because it's like, yeah, I fully agree with you that love is about acceptance versus idealization. But also at the same time it's like, well, what you have to kind of decide for yourself, okay, what can I not accept? You know, and then. Right, like, what do I, what do I like? Like make your list. You know, make your list ideally as small as possible. And then. Yeah, and then, and then try to accept and then try to do the work. Because yeah, you'll never fucking find like the per. I mean, sometimes you do, sometimes that. By the way, that totally happens to some people. It. But it mainly happens to people who are, who are just really, really physically attractive. And that's not most people. So it's. So it's probably not gonna happen to 99.99% of the people who are listening and, or to me or to you. But.
- [21:31]
Lyle
Right.
- [21:32]
Mo
Yeah. So, you know, and I'll say, you know what? Actually fuck that. Even. Even. No, I actually fucked that. Even really hot people still, I think, have. There's a. Levels of acceptance to that. Yeah, take that back. I think.
- [21:48]
Lyle
Well, you know, in regards to you saying like, you know, we can't ignore the value that it does have, Let me, let me just say like right there, that I know, I also know people in my life that have met people online, they're married and there couldn't be a better fit for each other. They absolutely in love with each other, their relationship is successful and it's successful for many years. So I'm not, you know, by pointing out, you know, like a, that there's a mindless algorithm working behind the scenes to help you find love and capitalism, blah, blah, blah, that it somehow has no value. It does, it does work. It does have value. And I'm not saying that, you know, if, if I personally happen to find somebody online and it works out that somehow our love is tainted by the hands of capitalism. Right. It's not. It's just two people in love. And I acknowledge that. You know, this, this is like my big problem is that, you know, there's so many, many, many things in the system that I wholeheartedly disagree with, but nonetheless still participate in. Right. Like I might not agree with certain corporations supporting certain wars out there, you know, and nonetheless I'm going to end up giving them my money, you know.
- [23:10]
Mo
Sure.
- [23:11]
Lyle
And I have to, you know, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Yeah, like that whole thing.
- [23:18]
Mo
Sure.
- [23:19]
Lyle
So I have to, like, pick and choose my battle.
- [23:21]
Mo
Sure.
- [23:21]
Lyle
And I'm in the process of trying to determine, is this where I draw my line with capitalism? Is this the one thing that I pick, where I'm like, you know what? I'm willing to support some girls out there with my money, with my tax dollars, whatever, through my participation in the system. But love, that's one thing I'm going to hold sacred and I'm going to remove myself from any participation in this online dating shit. And whatever happens, happens. You know, as.
- [23:50]
Mo
Look, I. Let me tell you something. If. Go ahead, you can finish. Go ahead.
- [23:56]
Lyle
You know, the way I look at it in life, like, the best case scenario is you get to do the things that you want, be the person that you wanted to be. And. And at the end of the day, when you're on your deathbed, you had somebody along for the ride. That's the best case scenario.
- [24:12]
Mo
Yeah, of course.
- [24:13]
Lyle
Best case scenario, you know, you didn't get to do the things you wanted, you didn't become the person you wanted to become, but at least you have somebody along for the ride. The worst case scenario, you didn't do the things you wanted to do, you didn't become the person you wanted to become, and you had nobody long for the ride. I at least want to make sure at the end of my life, on my deathbed, that I can say, you know, I had no one along for the ride, but at least I was genuine and authentic and was myself and got to do the things that wanted. Right. You know what I'm saying?
- [24:48]
Mo
Like, I know, I know. I know exactly what you're saying. How old are you?
- [24:53]
Lyle
So, you know, it's like, I'm 31.
- [24:58]
Mo
Okay, cool, cool. Do you feel like as of, as of your life so far that you've gotten to do all those things and be the person that you've wanted to be and do the things you've wanted to do?
- [25:09]
Lyle
Honestly, man, like, that's tough. Like, it's only in the past year of my life where I feel like I'm kind of like waking up to like, like, joy and happiness most of the time, you know, and peace and feeling content. There's a couple of things, big things that I really want to do for myself that, you know, I haven't gotten to do yet. And. Yeah, so there's definitely things to let, you know, left to cross off of my list for sure.
- [25:48]
Mo
You know, what's interesting is that. And by the way, what I'm about to say is not about romance. But about people doing all the. It's tough, right? Because doing all the things that you want to do with no one along the ride, along for the ride, it's a lit. It's all the shit depends on who you are. Because there's all these motherfuckers. I don't, I don't know how happy these people are, but there was all these people on Instagram that are like, I solo traveled for nine months through all of Southeast Asia where all this stuff, and I'm like, I used to want to. I've done stuff like that. Not for nine months, and I've lived life like that. I've done lots of solo traveling. I've done lots of, like, amazing, cool, great stuff, and I'm so happy I got to do it. But, like, the way I look at it now, I was just like, like having to do that all, like, alone seems like tiresome at this age and at this point. You know what I mean? And maybe that's a. I don't know. I don't know what that is. What is the. What are the things that you want to do that you said that you don't know if you have time for or. Or not, that you don't have your time that you haven't done yet?
- [27:06]
Lyle
Honestly, like, the biggest thing, right, is for me to actually, I want to be a behavioral therapist. And I went to college many, many, many years ago, and, you know, actually in the pursuit of love, kind of gave that up and moved across the country, you know, for, you know, for my girlfriend at the time. And, you know, things didn't work out. I try to, you know, get back to it. Things didn't work out again. And, you know, so that's like, one thing I want to do is become a behavioral therapist, you know, and that's a. That's a long road ahead. That's many, many years of work, you know, and. And the other thing, I mean, you know, is I was actually thinking about, like, what is it that I ultimately want? And. And I thought to myself, like, you know, if I have a studio apartment in a relatively safe area and I have my behavioral therapy, and I'm a behavioral therapist. I have my degree and I'm seeing a few clients. I have a 10 year old Corolla and, you know, I'm able to live and eat comfortably and not wake up to, like, you know, $3.23 in my bank account.
- [28:29]
Mo
Mm.
- [28:30]
Lyle
I'm like, you know, I'm gonna be perfectly happy. I know I would be happy with that situation, I don't need, you know, I don't, I know I don't need the fastest car and the biggest house, right. To be happy.
- [28:42]
Mo
Right.
- [28:43]
Lyle
But that kind of, kind of goes into like the, you know, and then, and then I started thinking, okay, I would be happy with that, but what if had a partner, would she be happy with that? And you know, is my lack of desire for things stemming from the fact that I don't want to quote, unquote, participate in the capitalist machine and so detach myself from material desires.
- [29:14]
Mo
So, so is it. So if, if you had a partner, right? Or like in your, in your. So you know, we talked about like love being acceptance, right? Like if you could, could you. But like we talked about love, Love is acceptance. But it's good to have a few rules. Is that one of your rules that she, she can, she has to join you in your rejection of capitalism?
- [29:39]
Lyle
No. No. Well, you know, I. Actually that's a really good question. So many people around me, how drastically different views, you know, like my best friend, you know, drastically different views regarding religion, political ideology, economic ideology, etc. But when I think about like my partner and I love all of them and I'm very close to them, but when I think about my partner not sharing this, I don't need my partner to think the same way exact way I do about social, you know, Marxist socialism, you know. Yeah, that's, that's tough. Yeah. No, I, I don't, I don't want her to live exactly the way I do. If she wants to consume things and have the fastest car. Good. I just wouldn't want her to feel bad that I'm not that way. You know what I mean?
- [30:33]
Mo
Okay, so it's like she, she. Well that makes perfect sense, right? It's like she doesn't have to be this way, but she does have to accept that I am this way.
- [30:45]
Lyle
Yeah. And even if she accepted it, right, I think to myself, like, oh God, I hope there's no resentment in her heart and she doesn't think that I'm lacking ambition. You know, this guy's living in a studio apartment with a 10 year old Corolla. I hope that doesn't like somehow brew like resentment in her heart.
- [31:03]
Mo
Yeah, I mean that's the, that's the dance of it, you know, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the acceptance dance, you know, acceptance versus resentment verse. It's a big fucking dance. It's a big ever evolving puzzle and you know it.
- [31:21]
Lyle
Aside from Like a potential future partner and how she might view my ambition or lack thereof. Right. It also made me think about, like, my family that I love and they love me so much and my, my whole. Like, how would they view me? Like, this guy, he's like, you know, 55 years old and he's still driving a shitty car, you know, like, he's still like, you know, just, you know, just. He's getting by. He's independent, but he's not like, thriving. We thought he'd do so much, you know, and it was such a conflicting thought because. But eventually I stopped thinking about it. I was like, you know what? This is not the way to go about this thought process. I have to decide in myself, like, am I okay with it? Right, right. And I can't make up my mind about that. I. I can't figure out if my lack of ambition or lack of desire for material things is coming from some sort of like, spiritual, anti capitalist angle and, you know, in my mind or.
- [32:25]
Mo
But, but, but that I think that.
- [32:27]
Lyle
I'm not capable of accomplishing those things because, you know.
- [32:30]
Gaming Representative
Oh.
- [32:30]
Mo
Oh, that's. Oh, that's fascinating. That's fascinating. That's. That's very. That's. That's kind of hilarious, actually. That is kind of hilarious. It is kind of hilarious to be like, to be like, like, you know, like you're, you're picketing for fucking, like whatever. You're, you're like, I'm anti capitalist, you know, fuck the system, blah, blah, blah. And then in the back of your mind, you're like, what if I'm only doing this because I think I would.
- [32:57]
Lyle
Like, I'm not capable of working that hard to get those things.
- [33:00]
Mo
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. That's extremely funny. And it's extremely funny. And it's quite possible that that might be the case that you just like. I mean, yeah, if you're like super anti capitalist and you're super not materialistic, it's like, maybe you're just like. I think I'm just like a little. I just don't want to work that hard. But you. Okay, but here's the thing from talking to you is that you're not like, you're not like, oh, I just want to like jerk off all day and play video. I don't want to do anything. You're just like, I don't want to. Look, here's the thing. Pretty much everyone just wants to be able to. I think it's a universal goal that everyone just Wants to not have to worry about money. Everyone just wants to not have to worry about like their own survival and just like do whatever they want to fucking do. That's like a. I think that's literally everyone, you know, from like hyper capitalist, whatever the fuck people to hyper, you know, anti capitalist people. Everyone is like that. So I don't think that that's like a completely uncommon way to be. And you have like desires. You want to be a behavioral therapist, you want to help people, you want to do stuff, but you just don't care about. It's okay to not care about making that much money or like not care about having a nice car. Not care about like how you present to other people in terms of your like material status. But like, if you don't care about anything, then yeah, you're gonna be depressed, you know, but you clearly care. Yeah, stuff.
- [34:52]
Lyle
Definitely. And you know, like, I, it sucks because like, I am like, you know, surrounded by people who are doing really well. Right. Like everybody, you know, is really successful and everybody's like, you know, well off. And you know, it's a lot about like, you know, getting, getting more comfortable with myself, I think. You know, like I said, you know, it's been only so recently that I'm, you know, becoming more of a confident person. More you know, a lot of like, you know, you know, practicing a lot of self love and all that other.
- [35:30]
Mo
Well, where's all that, where is all that coming? Where is all that coming from that you feel like you're becoming a better, a happier person?
- [35:41]
Lyle
This time last year I was actually ended up in a psych ward.
- [35:49]
Mo
Right.
- [35:49]
Lyle
Voluntarily, Right. A year ago. And you know, coming out of it like it was a terrible experience in the psych ward. It was pretty awful, right? And coming out of it, I just felt really empty, like completely empty. And my, my mom and my sisters, they needed a lot of financial help. And you know, I worked like a minimum wage job and I was just like, you know, I don't think I can do anything in life right now. Like zero things. I think the only thing I'm capable of doing is like just going to lay down somewhere and then never getting up again. But the love that I have for my mom and my sisters who have been so kind, loving and supportive, I was like, no. Like, if there's one thing I gotta do is I gotta make sure I can. I gotta get this money to them, right? So I was like, I'm just gonna do one thing I'm gonna do. I'm completely Empty of no desire of anything. I'm just going to do one thing. I'm just going to go to work and do my fucking job and then give them money, right?
- [37:04]
Mo
Yeah.
- [37:05]
Lyle
And from. And then from that, I felt like a sense of purpose, you know, okay, I'm. I'm contributing something, I'm producing something, and then contributing something. I'm helping them. And then gradually, as I was like, you know what? You know, I was. I was like, pretty. Pretty overweight and ended up losing, like, 50 pounds and this whole process. And I was like, you know what? One day I was like, it's been a month and a half of me going to work consistently on time every day. Let me just try, like, working out, you know?
- [37:40]
Mo
Yeah.
- [37:41]
Lyle
So I started working out, and then month and a half after that, I was like, you know what? I'm going to work and working out. Let me try and eat a little bit better. I don't have to eat like shit all the fucking time, right? And then gradually, like, I just kept adding one more thing and one more thing. I was like, one day I was like, you know, let me start meditating, you know, And I started meditating, and that helped profoundly. I was like, you know what? Let me start meditating and journaling and on and on and on. So I, like, woke up and I was just like, holy shit. Like, I feel very content, you know, I feel very at peace.
- [38:17]
Mo
It's not like, yeah, because you're doing stuff. You're not just like, floating around in a endless ocean of. Of every. Of everything and nothing at once.
- [38:27]
Lyle
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I think, you know, like, I. I don't. I don't have, like a. You know, I don't have my own, like, room to sleep in and shit. Right. I, like, spent like, three hours at the house during the weekdays, you know, and that's just like, come home after the working gym, shower and go right to sleep. And, you know, it was. It's a. Being 31 and not having any fucking privacy. Right. It's rough, man. But, you know, I. One day I was just like, feeling really down about it, you know, after. You know, there's like two months, three months after the psych ward, I was just like, holy shit, I'm broke. I'm, like, sleeping on a. On. On the floor in a living room. I don't have privacy. This sucks. Right? So I started meditating and I was like, you know what? Every time I feel anxiety in my life, every time I feel, like, some pressure, I always try and Distract myself from it. I always try to run away, but I'm just gonna sit here for 10 minutes and I'm just gonna sit with this anxiety. I'm just gonna sit with this feeling of like, ah, this fucking sucks, right?
- [39:38]
Mo
You know, it's so funny though, you know, it's. What's really funny about this is that it feels, is that sitting with that feeling for 10 minutes feels like an eternity. And yet I have like, I like escape. And yet every fucking time escaping that feeling by browsing Reddit for, for an hour, it takes way more time. Isn't that insane?
- [40:03]
Lyle
Yeah, it is.
- [40:06]
Mo
Everything that you do to escape the feeling takes way more time than actually like addressing it. It's insane.
- [40:13]
Lyle
Addressing it. Right, right. No, absolutely. And you know, I mean, I've distracted myself in a hundred ways. Reddit is one. Do you know, just, ah, fuck, I feel anxiety. Let me just like, you know, smoke some weed real quick, right? I'm not saying smoking weed is bad. Whatever, I smoke weed all the fucking time. But when you're feeling anxiety in order to deal with it, like self medicating shit, right, that's another way to distract yourself from it. There's a hundred other ways. But, you know, as I was like sitting there with that feeling and you know, I just took some deep breaths, you know, five minutes later I was like, whoa, I, I'm safe here. Like, I'm safe here. And then you're on. Am I in a living room without a room? Yeah, in this house I am safe. I was like, I have a place to sleep, okay, I can get rest. And I'm saving. I was like, wait, I have love of like my, my mother and my sisters here, right? And I, I like damn near shed a tear. And I was like, yo, of course, like, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't strive for independence as I desperately want to. And I'm working on it. But in that moment, right, just sitting that feeling, it did me wonders. And that's kind of like my thing on, like, even with like the loneliness thing, right? Every time that feeling comes up, I don't like, I don't try to like run away from like. No, no, no. Like now I know I got to sit with it, you know what I mean? Because it has gifts to offer. It has so many gifts to offer. You know, as long as you're kind to yourself, you know, you treat yourself with love. These, these feelings, you know, they have so many gifts to offer. The gifts of patience, the gifts of understanding, you know, the gifts of feeling content.
- [42:06]
Mo
Yeah.
- [42:06]
Lyle
So I think that's like ultimately what like sparked the awakening, you know?
- [42:14]
Mo
You know. You know, you know, Mo, you're, you're really. I, I just. Everything we've been talking about over the past 40 minutes, I really, I'm really with you on, you know, we is. Here's the thing is like there's we, like we need. I think and I'm not gonna put this in like political science terms. I'll put this in like may. I'll maybe I'll put this in like self love terms in a sense. It's like, I'm like. I don't know the exact numbers, but I think the right. There's. It's like a yin and yang. And I talked about this a little bit on a couple episodes other. It's like, I think like for my. I'll use this just as an example and. But this is like kind of a microcosm for a larger concept of like, you know, I accept my body as it is and I, and I, you know, I love myself and you know, I accept myself and whatnot. But also, but you know, also I shouldn't be such a fat piece of all the time. You know what I mean? Like, there's those 2 I. Those two ideas. I really just believe so deeply that they can coexist. Because if you only believe. Because if you, if you're too hard on, like, if I went too hard on like accepting myself exactly as I am, I would be miserable. I would be depressed. I would never get out of my bed. I would be eating from the 7, 11, 10,000 calories of candy every single day. It would be miserable if I. If that like, that's full acceptance right there. That's a hundred percent acceptance. I think you need like 50% acceptance and then 50% I'm gonna not be. I'm gonna not eat candy and stop being a fat piece of shit. But if you're, if you're, if I'm a hundred percent, like I'm a piece of shit, I suck. I'm, you know, I'm. I'm fat, I'm a loser. If then that you're just anxious and miserable all the time, you know, so you need, right. That's why we need. We need like. I don't know what it is is there what's between capitalism and socialism. We need that like what's something. We need that. We need those two things combined divided by two. Because I really have been enjoy. Because here's another thing. So here's here's two more. Here's two conflicting ideas. Is I've really genuine, genuinely, intrinsically have sincerely been enjoying having this conversation with you about, you know, capitalism and you know, acceptance and, and all these things. And I'm also totally going to put an ad break afterwards so that I can make money. I'm going to do both of those things. Can we get. How do we combine these two things? There's some, there's got to be something in the middle that is the perfect yin and yang way to live. Because you know, cuz, Right. Cuz if it's all because we don't want like, like, like a billion dollars is too much money, you know, we're gonna get. I don't know what we're getting into, but like.
- [45:25]
Lyle
Yeah, well, well, you know, in regards to like you saying, you know, I accept myself completely, I love myself completely. Right. And you know, there's like this whole like thing going on in society right now and it's like stemming from these like upscale yoga studios where people are like chilling with their crystals a lot and they're turning these like profound truths right on how to be into something like really like overused and cliche. You know, like this whole like idea of like, I love myself completely. Right, right. There's just so much of like spirituality and psychology that's turning into like pops. Spirituality psychology. Right.
- [46:18]
Mo
Yeah.
- [46:19]
Lyle
And the way a lot of these like, I don't know, what do you want to call it? Influencers or you know, self proclaimed yoga gurus. Right. The way that they promote these things. The same exact thing you said. I love myself fully. It's coupled with this like sense of. There's no, like, they don't take the responsibility to like break that down a little bit further. They just promote it as that. Right. And it's, I don't know, it's like kind of like coupled with like a sense of consumption in there somewhere. It's kind of like attached to that, you know, and, and, and I think that that's like the problem. Like these, when these just simple truths about life that everybody pretty much knows when they start to become cliche, it's just like, you know, because I heard a lot of this shit when I was like trying to, I don't know what you want to call it better myself. Right. Like when I heard. First heard the word mindfulness, I kind of like laughed at that idea. Right. I'm like, yo, what is this like, you know, yoga studio, you know?
- [47:24]
Mo
Yeah.
- [47:25]
Lyle
Because I associate that completely with like people like Rubbing on crystals, talking about, like, hippie dippy shit. But when I looked into mindfulness, when I, like, read about it, when I, you know, when I read books from, like, Don Miguel Ruiz Jr. And Don Miguel Reeves, like, I was like, oh, this is actually genuinely profound. This is actually genuinely helpful. You know, I think a lot of these, like, things become so cliche, you know, they have a sense of, like, pop culture attached to them. And I think that's the problem.
- [48:00]
Mo
Yeah, I will. Yeah, I agree with that, too. I don't like. I don't al. I also don't like the kind of, like, overly flowery presentation of mindfulness and self love because it's. It makes it. You know, it's like. It's like putting on too much perfume. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? It just. Yeah, it's too much. But it's, It's. It's. It's helpful stuff when you actually get into it. Yeah. I don't know, man. I. Everything you're saying makes a lot of sense. Everything you're saying makes a lot. And I'm trying to remind myself of a lot of these concepts as well as I have my own personal existential crises, you know?
- [48:51]
Lyle
You know, you said you feel two. Two callers ago, I believe it was. I was like, listening in and out, you know. But one of the things you had said was like, you feel directionless, right?
- [49:06]
Mo
Yeah, I do often feel directionless. Sure.
- [49:10]
Lyle
I would just. I mean, if you feel comfortable, I mean, you know, like, expanding on that, like sharing a bit about it. If you don't, that's completely fine, you know.
- [49:19]
Mo
Sure. I mean, yeah, fuck it. Sure. I mean, well, I. I like doing this podcast, you know, especially when I get to have conversations like these that I really enjoy.
- [49:36]
Lyle
Right.
- [49:37]
Mo
But, you know, I'm. And, you know, also, like, I'm engaged right now. I'm like, actually doing something in this very moment. But, like, a lot of the time I feel. I kind of let myself go a little bit. I feel a little unengaged and I'm like, you know, what should I do to, like. I'm just trying to figure out, like, what to do next. Like, I think I always. With the gecko thing, I was always like, well, what should I do next with this? Like, because this is gonna be like a, you know, I guess a thing that I can do something else with. And right now where I'm doing is I'm just like, I've decided that sitting and trying to think about the direction that you want Your life to go in next is a little stupid because your life doesn't move forward. Oh, I just knocked something over on the table. You. Your life doesn't move for. Your life doesn't move forward as a result of you, like, thinking, like. I mean, you think a little bit, right? It's another yin yang thing. But, like, you know, you think too much. You go into a spiral. And so I'm just like, you know what? I'm just going to do things that I think are cool. Like, I'm. I think by the time this episode airs, I'll be walking through rural Japan with my boy Jason. I'm gonna. I'm doing an art gallery. I think that'll be cool. So I'm just like. I'm just. I'm in a. Let me try shit. Because, you know, I built this audience with this podcast, and it's cool. And I'm like, well, what else can I do? You know, that would just be fun or cool or interesting or exciting because, you know, I don't want to be stuck in. In the same routine over, like, I don't like. And I'm also just. I'm like, man, I'm gonna be. As I'm getting older, I'm realizing that all the ages I thought I would never be. I'm going to be like. Like, if you told me at 19 that one day I would be 27, I just wouldn't believe you. And now I am that. And so now I'm having this existential crisis where I'm like, oh, no, one day I'm going to be 56 years old. What the hell is my life gonna look like? Am I gonna be wearing this gecko suit when I'm 56 years old? You know, I mean, people do that. Like, people like musicians or whatever. Like, you know, people, you know, I'm just like, what the hell is my life gonna look like? So I just gotta keep trying new, different things that I think maybe could be cool or interesting to try to find a new right path forward. Because I've tried it. I've, like, thought about. I've, like. I've, like, journaled endlessly about what I might want to do with myself, but it's just kind of. And especially, like, with the, you know, like, how do I, you know, do more things in person that I think would be cool? Because, you know, I really feel like I enjoy being out in the realm world more than I do in the. In the computer world. And so I'm just trying to figure out how to do that stuff. And I've. And I've. And again, you fall into the trap of, like, oh, I'm gonna journal until I come up with the perfect idea of something to do. And I don't think. I think that's a bad strategy. So I'm just kind of like, okay, let me. My ultimate anecdote to my directionlessness has been, okay, let me just start, like, doing things that could potentially be interesting. And then now again, you know, on my. We talked about the deathbed, and I'm like, look, when I'm on my deathbe, I'm not gonna regret having tried these various things that might be cool or interesting to do. See, that's my. That's my little spiel.
- [53:20]
Lyle
You know, there's two things you. You said, I think. Like, you, like, nailed on the head, right? Like, one thing. I mean, I'll just sum it up with, like, you know, you said pretty much, you know, it's not that motivation comes first, and then you take action, right? Now you.
- [53:39]
Mo
You.
- [53:39]
Lyle
You take action first, and then motivation eventually comes, you know. Yeah, yeah, do shit, right? And the second thing you said is, like, you know, you're journaling, journaling, journaling. Kind of come up with, like, the perfect thing. That.
- [53:53]
Mo
That.
- [53:53]
Lyle
That's, like a huge, you know, hurdle. Actually. It's good. To journal is great to journal, but, like, to think of, like, what is the optimal. The number one option in my life right now, the perfect option, right? I'm gonna wait until I come up with that and then do that. Right?
- [54:12]
Mo
That's exactly.
- [54:13]
Lyle
That is a massive hurdle.
- [54:14]
Mo
It's exactly what I've been doing for years. It's. It's. Yeah, it's a massive hurdle. It's almost akin to, like, idealization versus acceptance.
- [54:26]
Lyle
Right, right, right. Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and there's this, like, this one song I listen to almost every single day, right? And there's a line in it that I absolutely love that helps me out a lot because, you know, like, I don't know, like, I'm working this job right now that's, like, feels. I know it's not meaningless. I definitely know that deep down that it's not meaningless, right? But at times when it does start to feel meaningless, right? I always keep this, like, line in my mind, you know, which is. I got to translate it from a different language to English, which I think it would translate to. I put two paper wings on my heart and watch it float away Where I thought it would go. It didn't. My Heart might be directionless, but it's not distracted. That helps me out a lot, right?
- [55:28]
Mo
Yeah, it might be directionless, but it's not distract. Ah, I'm putting that on a. I'm. I'm getting that branded on my ass.
- [55:39]
Lyle
Yo. You know, and I've heard. You know, I've seen a lot of your clips. So much of that is hilarious. Right? But I've seen. Also seen the stuff like your interview with Logic. I saw all of that. Right? And, you know, I mean, I don't know you personally. You know, you seem like a person with a good heart, if I was to take a wild fucking guess. But who knows? You might be just a dude dressed up as a gecko with green Tate on his face, murdering people in his basement. Right? But as far as I can tell, right, like, you seem like a pretty. A person with a good heart, right? With good intentions, you know, that alone, you, I think, is like. You should take a little bit of comfort in that. Right? It's gonna.
- [56:21]
Mo
I appreciate.
- [56:22]
Lyle
It's gonna take you. Right, Right.
- [56:25]
Mo
I appreciate that. I'm gonna. I'm trying my best, man. I'm trying my best. Oh, man. Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying my best to be. To. I don't know. I guess my. Well, my main motivations lately have just been like. To, you know, again, escape from despair. Yeah, this has been my main motivation. You know, Sometimes I think. Sometimes I think, you know, it's funny. I think. Well, yeah, go ahead, Go ahead.
- [56:56]
Lyle
No, no, you. You first. You first.
- [56:58]
Mo
I know what I'm gonna say. Yeah, forget it. What were you gonna say? And then, you know, I. I have to. I have to end this call sort of soon because I. I think you tricked me into being vulnerable. No, not actually.
- [57:15]
Lyle
No, not actually.
- [57:16]
Mo
Well, I mean, a little bit, actually, but it's okay. It's okay. I accept it. What were you gonna say in this call?
- [57:22]
Lyle
I. I know you're. You're in Japan right now, right? I don't want to take up too much of your time, but have you heard of the movie called Perfect Days?
- [57:31]
Mo
Perfect Days? Oh, that's. Yeah, I have heard of that movie. I never watched it, though.
- [57:37]
Lyle
I think you might get something out of it if you have the time to check it out. I think that based on all the conversation that we just had right now, if you get the time to check it out, and I think it'll be super special while you check it out in Japan. It's a Japanese movie, you know. Okay, cool.
- [57:56]
Mo
Maybe I'LL watch it.
- [57:57]
Lyle
You might enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah.
- [57:58]
Mo
Okay. Maybe.
- [58:01]
Lyle
Well, thanks, man. I really appreciate you talking to me. I really appreciate you, you know, bouncing ideas off and such. This is actually, this felt great. Like, I was sitting here and I was just about to meditate, but I was like, you know what? Let me see if Lyle happens to cover. So this really put a smile on my face, man. I feel, I feel really happy, you know. Thank you so much.
- [58:25]
Mo
Thank you, Mo. I appreciate it. It's sincerely, very, very good talking to this feel. I feel like today, today, the therapy gecko was. Was therapy. This is the therapy mode episode. You. You therapy gecko. The therapy gecko today. So thank you. Thank you for that.
- [58:45]
Lyle
When I, when I. When I officially become a therapist, I'll see you as my first client, man.
- [58:52]
Mo
That would be. That sounds like a conflict of interest, but I'm. I'm down. I'm game.
- [58:58]
Lyle
All right, man. You have a good time in Japan. I hope you go do your thing, man. Take it easy.
- [59:03]
Mo
Thank you, Mo. Thank you, Mo. Take it easy. Later on, man.
- [59:06]
Lyle
Bye.
- [59:09]
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- [66:42]
Mo
That was a nice phone call. I really enjoyed talking to Mo. It, it's, you know, it's. I went again. I went on a rant last episode about talking about your problems, not really solving them, but it helps you. It does help you think. Like, I mean, again, it's a yin yang fucking thing. There's like 50% thinking and 50%. I don't know what the exact ratios are, but it's some math equation that's part thinking and part taking actual action. And I think if you're. And I'm definitely a neurotic person, I'm definitely an overthinker. And so I think I. I think I think too much. It's a spiral of thinking. But it is good to kind of have a conversation like that that gets you with another person. You know, Moe definitely described a lot of things that I have cooking in my brain as well. And it's nice when you get to talk to somebody like that because it makes you feel like you're not crazy, you know, for having you're actually you. What you may think is some kind of unique human experience has actually been fucking observed and recorded by other people who are not you. Which is comforting in a sense. So yeah, I appreciate Mo for calling in and do I have anything else to say? I hope that conversation was beneficial for the people of the computer to listen to. And I'm a gecko. And thank you guys for listening.
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