All About Birthday Cake, featuring Cheryl Day and Bronwen Wyatt

Summary

**Podcast Summary: "All About Birthday Cake"
Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
Hosted by Jessica Batalana and David Tamarkin
Featuring Cheryl Day and Bronwyn Wyatt
Release Date: May 5, 2025

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Introduction: Celebrating Birthday Cakes

The episode opens with David Tamarkin humorously lamenting his aging birthday cakes resembling funeral fare (00:00), setting a lighthearted tone for the discussion about the quintessential birthday treat. Jessica Batalana emphasizes the universal significance of cake in birthday celebrations, contrasting cake enthusiasts with pie lovers (00:27).

Notable Quote:
"Cake is what makes a party a party, I think." — Jessica Batalana (01:01)

Personal Stories and Nostalgia

Jessica shares her fond memories of her mother's homemade scratch cakes, highlighting the sentimental value of birthday cakes made with love rather than bought (01:35). David reciprocates with a heartfelt story about his first boyfriend’s homemade cake, underscoring the emotional impact of a birthday cake crafted by someone special (02:33).

Notable Quotes:
"I was so touched. That is the power of a birthday cake." — David Tamarkin (03:21)
"Whether they're store bought birthday cakes, box Cakes, homemade cakes, they just inspire such nostalgia." — Jessica Batalana (02:33)

History and Evolution of Birthday Cakes

Jessica delves into the origins of birthday cakes, tracing them back to 15th century Germany where dense, lightly sweetened single-layer cakes were a luxury (04:07). She explains how the Industrial Revolution democratized cake-making through cheaper sugar, refined flours, and reliable ovens, leading to the layered, frosted cakes familiar today (05:25).

Notable Quote:
"The tradition really started during the industrial revolution." — Jessica Batalana (04:38)

Modern Trends in Birthday Cakes

David observes a surge in cake innovation, noting unconventional flavors and grand presentations, such as sheet cakes with unique ingredients like fig leaves or black sesame (05:32). He ponders whether traditional birthday cakes are losing their prominence amid these creative variations (05:25).

Notable Quote:
"They're getting bigger, they're getting more elaborate, they're breaking out of the chocolate vanilla flavor mold." — David Tamarkin (05:32)

Guest Insights: Cheryl Day and Bronwyn Wyatt

Jessica introduces Cheryl Day of Back in the Day Bakery and Bronwyn Wyatt of Bayou Saint Cakes, both seasoned bakers with thousands of cakes under their belts (12:01). They discuss the prominence of Southern cakes, attributing it to cultural traditions and community gatherings (14:24).

Notable Quote:
"Cakes are really important in black culture. And I think that does, you know, kind of go into Southern culture as well." — Cheryl Day (14:56)
"We're seeing cakes made with rye flour, with buckwheat, with einkorn flour... fresh floral botanical garnishes." — Bronwyn Wyatt (18:49)

Baking Advice for Beginners

The guests offer practical advice for novice bakers aiming to transition from box cakes to scratch baking:

• Start Simple: Begin with single-layer cakes to minimize complexity (15:17).
• Preparation: Measure ingredients accurately and ensure they're at the right temperature (15:40).
• Pan Size: Adhere strictly to recommended pan sizes to avoid baking mishaps (17:08).
• Ingredient Quality: Use high-quality ingredients and trusted recipes (18:24).

Notable Quotes:
"Don't ignore the recommended pan size in the recipe." — Bronwyn Wyatt (17:08)
"The priority is definitely the priority is for it to taste good." — Cheryl Day (18:18)

Decoration Tips

For those less confident in their decorating skills, the guests suggest:

• Confectioner's Sugar Art: Use parchment paper to create patterns and dust with powdered sugar for a stunning effect without piping (17:38).
• Simple Toppings: Fresh berries or citrus slices can enhance visual appeal effortlessly (17:38).

Notable Quote:
"Place a few little beautiful berries or slices of citrus and you'd have a really visually stunning cake without even having to pick up a piping bag." — Bronwyn Wyatt (17:38)

Current Cake Trends

Bronwyn highlights several contemporary trends:

• Ancient Grains: Incorporation of rye, buckwheat, and einkorn flour.
• Organic Shapes: Moving away from perfect geometric shapes to more natural, rustic forms.
• Unusual Citrus: Flavors like yuzu and calamansi lime are gaining popularity.

Notable Quote:
"There's a lot of really gorgeous creativity in that space happening right now." — Bronwyn Wyatt (18:49)

Ask the Baker: Listener Questions

The hosts address listener questions, providing expert solutions:

1. Cake Flatness Issue (25:50):
   A caller’s cake rises in the oven but collapses upon cooling. David suggests reducing baking powder to prevent over-leavening, while Jessica advises ensuring the cake is fully baked by checking for signs like the cake pulling away from the pan and springing back when gently pressed.

   Notable Quote:
   "Too much leavening can cause the cake to rise too high and then collapse." — David Tamarkin (26:29)

2. Reverse Creaming Technique (28:58):
   Explained as a method where butter and dry ingredients are creamed first to coat the flour and prevent gluten formation, resulting in a more tender cake. Recommended for achieving unique textures.

   Notable Quote:
   "Reverse creaming prevents gluten formation, resulting in a more tender cake." — David Tamarkin (29:06)

Debate: Birthday Cake vs. Birthday Pie

Rossi Anastapoulo passionately argues that birthday pie is superior to birthday cake, citing ease of decoration, transportation, and aesthetic appeal. She advocates for single-crust custard or no-bake pies, which require less skill and offer elegant presentation with minimal effort (31:32).

Notable Quotes:
"Birthday pie is better for several reasons." — Rossi Anastapoulo (31:47)
"It's so much easier to transport." — Rossi Anastapoulo (33:05)

Jessica and David engage with Rossi’s arguments, appreciating her defense while noting the challenges of pie decoration, such as candle placement.

Conclusion: Baking Plans and Final Thoughts

In the closing segment, Jessica and David share their upcoming baking projects, reinforcing the community aspect of baking and encouraging listeners to explore new recipes and techniques.

Notable Quote:
"There's such a little time." — Jessica Batalana (35:57)

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Key Takeaways

• Emotional Significance: Birthday cakes hold nostalgic and sentimental value, symbolizing celebration and love.
• Historical Evolution: From dense German origins to the versatile, layered cakes of today, birthday cakes have evolved with societal changes.
• Modern Trends: Bakers are experimenting with ancient grains, unconventional shapes, and unique flavors, pushing the boundaries of traditional cakes.
• Expert Advice: Start simple, prioritize ingredient quality, adhere to recipes, and explore easy decoration methods to enhance cake-making success.
• Technique Insights: Reverse creaming offers a unique texture by preventing over-gluten formation, ideal for tender, dense cakes.
• Alternative Celebrations: Birthday pie presents a viable and elegant alternative to cake, with practical benefits in decoration and transportation.

Resources Mentioned

• Instagram Handles:

  • Bronwyn Wyatt: @byusaintcake
  • Cheryl Day: @SherilDay (Note: Corrected based on transcript)

• Recipes:

  • Cheryl Day’s coconut cake on King Arthur’s website
  • King Arthur’s Vanilla Birthday Cake
  • King Arthur’s Tender White Cake

• Newsletter:

  • Bayou Saint Newsletter by Bronwyn Wyatt

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Listeners are encouraged to visit kingarthurbaking.com for recipes, tools, and to participate in the Bakers Hotline for personalized baking questions.

Transcript

[David Tamarkin]

And yet the older I get, the more my birthday cakes look like something you would serve at a funeral.

[Jessica Batalana]

From King Arthur Baking Company, this is things Bakers Know. I'm Jessica Batalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking.

[David Tamarkin]

And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.

[Jessica Batalana]

And today we're talking about a very important topic. Birthday cake.

[David Tamarkin]

Never had one. Fun fact. Never had one. No. Wouldn't that be sad?

[Jessica Batalana]

That would be so sad. I'd head over to your house immediately to make you one. I feel like the world is divided into two kinds of people. Pie people and cake people. And I think you know which. Camp youp Fallen says a lot about you. I'm not gonna tell you what I think it says about you, but I think it says a lot about you. I am definitely a cake person. I love cake for all occasions, but certainly for birthdays. Like a birthday to me is not a birthday unless you've got birthday pie.

[David Tamarkin]

Is kind of sad. Yeah, yeah.

[Jessica Batalana]

Cake is what makes a party a party, I think. And I was fortunate that when I was growing up, my mother made scratch cakes for all of our birthdays. You know, she didn't do elaborate decorations, anything like that, but she made a solid scratch cake for each of her three children on their birthdays. Did anyone make her a cake? Who can recall? I'm sorry, Mom. With the exception of going to other kids birthday parties, all of the cakes that we ate as kids were scratch cakes. And then, you know, we'd go to other kids parties and they would have store bought cakes or box cakes.

[David Tamarkin]

Like those big, those sheet cakes with white icing that's like almost like whipped cream. Very, very, very light right from the grocery store.

[Jessica Batalana]

Very light, very sugary.

[David Tamarkin]

Light but gritty. But I'm into it. I can't lie. I mean, I'll eat it.

[Jessica Batalana]

My mom's cakes, she would always wrap a quarter in a piece of tin foil and then she would slide the quarter into the cake before she frosted it. And then the whole cake would get frosted, kind of like a fev in a king cake. And so then, you know, when you're cutting up the cake, if you were the person that got the wrapped up quarter in there, you would feel like extra special. That's so cool and super lucky. I know, I know. Also maybe a choking hazard, but you know, I sort of just remember the excitement of like, oh, who's gonna get it? You know. And I think that is the thing about birthday cakes. Whether they're store bought birthday cakes, box Cakes, homemade cakes, they just inspire such nostalgia because we remember them as some of the first sweet things we had as kids.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, my mom also made all my birthday cakes growing up. She didn't slip quarters into them because we were very choking hazard aware in my house. We had signs all over like what to do if you see someone. But when we were planning this episode, a different memory popped up for me and was one that I didn't even real was still rattling around in my old brain. And it's the memory of the cake that my first boyfriend made for me when I turned 23 years old, when I was just a baby. And it was straight from the COVID of Gourmet magazine. It was a classic yellow cake, chocolate frosting. And I remember going into his apartment, he didn't mention the cake. I saw it on the counter. He just kind of let me find it and just the feeling of wow, you made that for me. Like I was like, so. I was so touched. I mean, that's the, that is the power of a birthday cake. Now listen, I've since found out that he makes that birthday cake for his current husband, which is.

[Jessica Batalana]

You weren't as special as you thought.

[David Tamarkin]

Not great for my memories. Yeah, right. But whatever, I got it first.

[Jessica Batalana]

Amazing. I mean, I have made a lot of birthday cakes for former partners and with various degrees of success, I feel like it's kind of a high stakes thing to do. And you're right, it's a total act of love to make a birthday cake for somebody else. And you know, this birthday cake tradition is, is not new. If in 15th century Germany, if you had any extra money at all, you might have actually purchased a birthday cake. That's sort of where, you know, lore says that birthday cakes got their origins. They weren't like the cakes that we think of today. They were single layer cakes, likely quite dense, likely lightly sweetened because sugar was expensive. You know, there was no commercial leaveners. So you were at the whims of, you know, natural leavening or perhaps unleavened. And also, sadly, no frosting. So these sound gross. It's a birthday cake, I think in name alone. It's not really one that resembles what we have for birthdays today. I think that tradition really started during the industrial revolution. Because sugar became cheaper, industrial milling made white flour available to the masses. I'm sure the 15th century cakes were made with some stone ground, real nutty flour.

[David Tamarkin]

They had texture.

[Jessica Batalana]

Exactly. And then commercial leavenings became introduced. Of course, let's not forget about the reliability of Ovens, you know, that you weren't baking in a wood fired oven anymore, which made it much more possible to have, you know, a cake that turned out well every time. And then by the time we get to the 1930s, box cake mixes were invented. And then after World War II, of course they started to be aggressively marketed as a convenience product to housewives. And people definitely took the bait on that because now they're a party staple. And you see everything from like the sprinkle laden Funfetti cakes to themed sheet cakes, you know, from fudgy the to those beautiful buttercream dream cakes. But like I said earlier, like, I just feel like it's not a birthday unless there's cake.

[David Tamarkin]

You and I agree on that. I'm sure we're gonna get some emails advocating for the pie. I think even one of our producers of the show might be a pie for birthday person.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh.

[David Tamarkin]

But we'll talk to you later, Rossy. Although I will say I think you and I like similar birthday cakes. But there's a lot of reimagining of birthday cakes happening out there in the world. They're getting bigger, they're getting more elaborate, they're breaking out of the chocolate vanilla flavor mold. Over the last year, I feel like you and and everyone at King Arthur has been noticing so much cake innovation in general just from like giant sheet cakes served in parks at huge picnics, flavored with everything you can imagine, you know, fig leaves, tea, black sesame. Meanwhile, I wonder if the classic traditional birthday cake has actually been a little diminished. They become every day. I was in the grocery store the other day, I saw birthday cake Oreos.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh yeah.

[David Tamarkin]

A new restaurant just opened in Brooklyn and their main dessert is birthday cake. You know how many people are actually eating that on their birthday?

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, I call foul.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, right. These things are clearly not meant to be reserved for your actual birthday. It's meant to give you a birthday moment in an otherwise normal day.

[Jessica Batalana]

We could all use a birthday moment in a regular day. A moment of joy, right?

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, no, I'm not against it. I'm into it. But it does leave open the question. Okay, so where does that leave the birthday cake? So where does that leave the birthday cake for you, Jessica?

[Jessica Batalana]

I think a sheet cake is such a great choice for a birthday cake. I think they are easier to make in frost. No, I know they're easier to make in frost. It's not that. I think because, you know, you're not trying to stack layers. You have this like nice canvas sort of to work With. They feed a crowd. Sheet cakes were once the domain of grocery store bakeries. They weren't fancy, right? Like, people would have a wedding cake, and in the back, they have the sheet cake to cut up. Like, it wasn't the showpiece cake. But that has totally changed. And now lots of bakeries make these really beautiful, lavishly decorated sheet cakes, you know, with squiggles, with fresh flowers, with fruit. So I don't think, you know, there was a time that maybe a sheet cake was sort of looked down upon as less than a layer cake. But I think sheet cakes have come into their own. And I'm happy also, cause I think the ratio of cake to frosting in a sheet cake to me is, like, just right.

[David Tamarkin]

See, it gets a little problematic for me, but I do love a sheet cake. But am I hearing you correctly? For you, a birthday cake is a sheet cake?

[Jessica Batalana]

I mean, I like a sheet cake. What is a birthday cake? And these are existential questions.

[David Tamarkin]

Well, for you. For you, Jessica.

[Jessica Batalana]

Well, if you want to know what my favorite birthday cake is.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah.

[Jessica Batalana]

Well, it's not a sheet cake. The cake that I request for my birthday is a coconut cake, a yellow cake.

[David Tamarkin]

You know what? I know a very good recipe for a coconut sheet cake.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh.

[David Tamarkin]

So that totally resonates with me. Sheet cake is birthday cake. Layer cake is birthday cake. And yet the older I get, the more my birthday cakes look like something you would serve at a funeral. I mean, I just want, like, really sleek, sexy, dark birthday cakes. I want, like, a flower, a single layer of flourless chocolate cake, maybe with even like, maybe doubling down on the chocolate or tripling down on the chocolate by adding, like, a shiny glaze. I just want, like, I don't know, I just want something very, very intense and very sleek is the word that comes to mind.

[Jessica Batalana]

I mean, it's a shame you weren't born in 15th century Germany. You know, you could have the austere cake, right?

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, I just want to just have a sugarless chocolate cake. It's just basically like solid coffee.

[Jessica Batalana]

Like, to me, what you're describing sounds delicious. It also does not sound like a birthday cake. But then I think, like, maybe this is the whole point that a birthday cake should be the choice of the. Of the person whose birthday it is.

[David Tamarkin]

You. You did not say that with much conviction.

[Jessica Batalana]

No, I think that's true. Like, you should get to choose. I get to pick my birthday cake. Coconut. You pick your. And you know, and that's part of, like, the joy of it is that you can put in this request and have the request met. And maybe you can do that on other days if you have kinder people in your life. But I feel like you get a guarantee to get your wish on your birthday, right?

[David Tamarkin]

Absolutely. I think the birthday cake should be dictated by the birthday person. I also think it's 100% okay and even a flex for the birthday person to make their own birthday cake.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh no.

[David Tamarkin]

And I know that. Oh no, hear me out. I know there's this idea out there that the birthday cake is made with love from somebody else. But if you make your own birthday cake, it's sort of like an appreciation for yourself. It's an act of self love, which are words I don't even like hearing come out of my mouth. But it's an act. I don't know, I think it's a real act of just giving yourself what you want. And I think that's something that people need more practice doing. Like leaning into getting what you want and doing it for yourself. Sisters are doing it for themselves on their birthday. They're making their own birthday cake. I'm into it.

[Jessica Batalana]

I am not into it. I mean, I appreciate the sentiment, but I think, and maybe this is because I'm a person that, you know, makes food for my household, you know, day in, day out. I feel like part of the magic for me of a birthday cake is that it's made for you by somebody who loves you or barring that it's ordered for you by somebody who loves you. And I actually like, I have such like fondness, sort of my. It makes my heart feel squishy to like imagine a very humble, sort of poorly executed, slightly wonky, poorly frosted home baked birthday cake.

[David Tamarkin]

You'd rather have a bad birthday cake made for you than make a good one for yourself.

[Jessica Batalana]

I think I would. Yeah, I think I would.

[David Tamarkin]

I respect that. I just want a good birthday cake. So if no one's around, if you can't bake for me, I'm just gonna bake it myself. Luckily, I'm married to a man who does know how to bake, so we don't have that problem.

[Jessica Batalana]

See, it worked out for you from your first boyfriend to your husband. You know, the through line has been.

[David Tamarkin]

You gotta bake cake, birthday cake. You know, I think you talked to some interesting people about this subject. I don't know if you got to this topic, but you've to a couple people who bake other people birthday cakes for a living.

[Jessica Batalana]

I did, yeah. One thing that we haven't fully Acknowledged is that making a birthday cake for somebody else can feel like a high pressure situation. And so I wanted to talk to some people who have made a career out of making birthday cakes. So we have Cheryl Day, who ran the legendary Back in the Day bakery for years in Savannah, Georgia, and Bronwyn Wyatt, the baker behind Bayou Saint Cakes in New Orleans, joining us on the show. And I think together, I don't know, we get into it, but they have baked like thousands and thousands and thousands of cakes. So if anybody knows what to do and what not to do, it's the two of them.

[David Tamarkin]

I love both of these bakeries I have so much admiration for. I'm obsessed with Cheryl Day, and I've been watching Bronwyn Wyatt make cakes on Instagram for years and coveting them. So I can't wait to hear this conversation.

[Jessica Batalana]

Today I am joined by Cheryl Day, who ran the legendary Back in the day Bakery for 22 years in Savannah, Georgia. She's also a best selling cookbook author, a frequent guest on television and on podcasts.

[Cheryl Day]

Oh, excited to be here.

[Jessica Batalana]

And she is joined by our friend Bronwyn Wyatt, the baker behind Bayou Saint Cakes in New Orleans, which she shuttered last year in favor of a new career in food writing. She writes in amazing newsletter called Bayou Saint Newsletter. And I consider Bronwyn to be a baking trend soothsayer. So I'm really excited to have you here to sort of shed some light on what you see, you know, ahead in the world of cakes.

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Jessica Batalana]

So how many cakes do you guys, conservatively, how many cakes do you think you've made in your careers?

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

Oh, my gosh, I would say like at least five or six thousand. Cheryl, you've been doing this much longer, so, you know, a lot of cakes.

[Cheryl Day]

22 years just at the bakery and then, you know, baking before that. And I mean, I am definitely, even now that the bakery's closed, I like to be really, you know, it's a way that I can be a part of my community. And I'm a cake lady, so I bake a lot of cakes.

[Jessica Batalana]

Southern bakers are known for their cakes, right?

[Cheryl Day]

Absolutely.

[Jessica Batalana]

I'm actually curious to know why you think that is. Because you often hear about church cakes or Southern cakes as being sort of the archetype of a beautiful, fluffy layer cake.

[Cheryl Day]

Brodwin, you want to go first? Because I may go long. I can go hard on this question.

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

I would imagine. But I think you're pretty spot on when you talk about, like, church Cake culture, I think that's a big part of it. You know, obviously the south has a pretty strong religious tradition, but I would say too, that. And maybe I might just say it has something to do with our more seasonable climate. But there are a lot of gatherings here, and there's a lot of opportunities for bringing a baked good together, to join together with a larger group of people. And that could also perhaps be one reason.

[Cheryl Day]

Yeah, yeah. It's really big. And, you know, for me personally, in black culture, cakes go back. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a way to tell stories. There's folklore and there's legend that go around the baking of cakes, and it has a lot of history tied to it. So cakes are really important in black culture. And I think that does, you know, kind of go into Southern culture as well. But for me personally, it's definitely a big part of, you know, telling stories.

[Jessica Batalana]

Okay, well, imagine you have, like, say you're a beginner baker. Say you're a person that's always baked box cakes, and you're like, I want to try to make a cake from scratch. Like, where would you suggest people start? Cause I do think there is the problem of people, like, wanting to run before they can walk. Right. Like, they, you know, they see something on Instagram, they're like, I'll make that thing.

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

I would start with a single layer cake. I think they can look just as beautiful as a dramatic layer cake, but it takes out so much of the opportunity to fail when you don't have to stack for the first time. And it really allows you to focus on making sure your ingredients are mised out correctly. Like making sure that everything's the right temperature. Like, really slow down and focus on the basics.

[Jessica Batalana]

And when you say ingredients are mised out properly, you mean, like, you have them, like, measured or weighed and, like, ready to use?

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

Exactly. I think if you don't jump directly into a complex baking project, it just gives you a lot more time to learn what you're doing without fearing that you're gonna mess up something that's a little bit too complicated.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think that's probably sound advice.

[Cheryl Day]

I agree. And I think like a one bowl simple cake, like oil based, you know, all the great olive oil cakes that are out there, I just think those are so easy. And I think really, I mean, it's just, to me, if it's especially those kind of cakes, to me that's as easy as making a box cake, you know? And you know what you're putting in. I think the main thing is to like, you know, Bronwyn said, get everything together, Meese, everything out, be prepared. So you're not, you know, you're not making that cake for the first time for a big event.

[Jessica Batalana]

Sure.

[Cheryl Day]

I mean, I think that's just, you know, that's just shooting yourself in the foot.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yes.

[Cheryl Day]

That is not nice to you.

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

But I would also say for first time bakers, do not ignore the recommended pan size in the recipe that you're using. Oh, I feel like that's like a really big place. I see a lot of people where they're like, oh, I didn't have a 9 inch pan, so I used an 8 inch one. And then the cake was like dry and burnt on the outside and too crusty on the inside. And it's like.

[Cheryl Day]

Well, it's.

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

The pan size really lends like a lot of structure to the cake. It allows it to bake correctly and within the allotted timeframe. Like, it's actually a really important thing that unless you're a little bit more experienced, you shouldn't play around with too much.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh, yes. What are some easy but impactful decorations that you like to do? Like if somebody is not like, so, you know, confident in their piping skills, what's a way to decorate a cake that will still look really nice and special but maybe is like a lower lift?

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

I think with a one layer cake, like an olive oil cake, you can achieve a lot of really pretty effects of just confectioner sugar. So maybe you lay out parchment paper over the top of the cake with like stripes and then dust your confectioner's sugar in that, remove the parchment paper and you have this really dramatic visual effect for like almost no time or money. And then you could just like place like a few little beautiful berries or slices of citrus.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah.

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

And you'd have a really like visually stunning cake without even having to pick up a piping bag.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah. Because I get anxious about the piping. I think a lot of people get anxious about the piping.

[Cheryl Day]

I mean, I think the priority is definitely the priority is for it to taste good.

[Jessica Batalana]

Right.

[Cheryl Day]

So start there and before you even move on to, you know, how you're going to decorate it and all of that.

[Jessica Batalana]

But yes, absolutely. So good quality ingredients then and like a recipe that you can trust. Right. Like you're not like pulling something random off of the Internet and hoping for the best.

[Cheryl Day]

Oh, no, no random.

[Jessica Batalana]

You're going to your treasury of Southern baking, Cheryl, and picking out it like A A good recipe. But actually, Bronwyn, I would love to hear you talk a little bit about what kind of trends you think you're seeing in cakes right now.

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

I'd say the big ones we saw like a huge explosion of people using, you know, so called ancient grains during the pandemic. And I think we're still seeing that carrying through especially more in sweeter applications. Not just these gorgeous rustic loaves of bread that people have been baking. So you're seeing cakes made with rye flour, with buckwheat, with einkorn flour. I think that is still a very strong trend. Obviously, the fresh floral botanical garnishes. We're moving a little bit away from things having to look incredibly perfect. We're seeing much more like organic shapes in cakes. So they're not all just like round or square. Some of them look like mounds of rock, some of them look like clouds. Yeah, there's a lot of really gorgeous creativity in that space happening right now. And I would say too, I think that a fascination with unusual citrus is still something that we're seeing a lot of. So yuzu is incredibly popular right now. Calamansi lime is gonna be, I think, continue to be really trendy. Yeah, I think people are really into bright, puckery flavors right now.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh, interesting. And I feel like, Cheryl, you know, you sort of come from, you know, I think maybe a different perspective because I. When I think about the cakes, you know, the cakes that are in your book, the cakes that I have, you know, seen you post the cake recipe that you have on the King Arthur site for your coconut cake. I think about them as pretty classic and pretty traditional, is that I definitely.

[Cheryl Day]

Do lean to classic flavors. I mean, I definitely like to play around with flavor and make each ingredient the best it can be. But I, yeah, I'm a classic. I'm a classic cake kind of girl.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah. Oh, man, I wish we could just hang out and talk all afternoon, but I suppose I've gotta let you two go. Big thanks to today's guests. You can find Bronwyn on Instagram @byusaintcake, where you can also sign up for her fabulous newsletter. Cheryl Day is Sheryl Day on Instagram and you can find some of her recipes on King Arthur's website, also linked in the show notes. Cheryl Bronwyn, thank you so much for talking cakes with me today.

[Cheryl Day]

A thanks so much for having us. This was fun.

[Bronwyn Wyatt]

Thank you.

[David Tamarkin]

This episode is brought to you by the tools and ingredients you need to make your best birthday cake. All of which you'll find on king arthurbaking.com we've got pans and parchment, plus key decorating tools like our new offset spatulas.

[Jessica Batalana]

God, I love those. I use my offset spatula, I think every day.

[David Tamarkin]

Every day. Okay. Yeah.

[Jessica Batalana]

So spread butter on toast to help my kids pry apart their Lego bricks.

[David Tamarkin]

Oh nice.

[Jessica Batalana]

It's really a multipurpose tool.

[David Tamarkin]

Back to the ad. We also have recipes. Try our classic birthday cake, which was our 2019 recipe of the year. Or Cheryl Day's Old Fashioned coconut cake, which I know Jessica is a cake that you love. And for you mix bakers out there, we have plenty of those too. I love our chocolate cake mix. I make it all the time and honestly, it makes me feel like every day is my birthday. So make every day your birthday [e-mail].

[Gemma Stafford]

Ever wonder what's hot in the baking world right now? It's not even that complicated. You get store bought croissants, cut em open, shove in some store bought cookie dough and that's it. Hi everyone, I'm Gemma Stafford, professional chef, cookbook author and creator of Bigger Bolder Baking. Welcome to need to Know your Go to podcast for everything baking entertainment from the latest trends.

[Jessica Batalana]

This is the viral scrambled pancake trend.

[Gemma Stafford]

What to the tips and tricks you crave. We discovered that if you take apple peels, toss them in a little cinnamon and sugar and bake them for about an hour in the oven, you get a really lovely treat. Plus exclusive interviews with baking pros.

[Cheryl Day]

Hey, it's Liz from the Sugar Geek Show. Thanks for having me, Gemma.

[Gemma Stafford]

We've even got the Bold Baking Hotline to answer all of your baking queries and questions.

[Jessica Batalana]

Is a Dutch oven really necessary for baking bread? And what difference does it make?

[Gemma Stafford]

Yes, I think we probably would agree on that. Do we, Omi? Oh good. So join us for your new weekly baking ritual. It's everything you need. That's Knead to know.

[David Tamarkin]

Well, I know our listeners have some burning questions about not burning their cakes. So let's go into Ask the Baker for Ask the Baker. We want to hear from you. Maybe you have a baking question that's stumping you. If so, head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast.

[Jessica Batalana]

And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our baker's hotline via phone, email or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com that's kingarthurbaking.com Bakers Hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake.

[David Tamarkin]

Let's hear our first question.

[Jessica Batalana]

Hi.

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

So I have a question about cake flour and how much it actually makes a difference when you're baking things like birthday cakes.

[Jessica Batalana]

How is it different and why is it so important?

[David Tamarkin]

I'm gonna let you take this one, Jessica.

[Jessica Batalana]

I mean, it's a great question and I'm sure it's a question a lot of people have because the flour literally has cake in the name. Right. So you think like, of course it's gotta be the choice for a cake recipe. And you know what distinguishes cake flour from say all purpose flour or bread flour is the amount of protein in that flour. So King Arthur's cake flour has a protein content of 10% compared to our all purpose flour which has a protein content of 11.7%. And then bread flour has higher still. And the lower protein content in a cake flour means that it has less gluten forming potential. And of course, like gluten are the web of strands that give a cake structure. You, you need some gluten in order to make a cake rise and behave like you want a cake to behave. But you don't want so much gluten that it makes the crumb of your cake tough. Right. So that's why you don't see a cake recipe that calls for bread flour because that would produce too much gluten in the batter and make it really tough and have a chewy, you know. Yeah. Like a chocolate.

[David Tamarkin]

But you don't want to chew on your birthday cake.

[Jessica Batalana]

No, you don't. But all purpose flour and cake flour, conversely, because they have the lower protein, like they give you a cake that has like that nice kind of tender crumb. And so can you substitute all purpose flour in a recipe that calls for cake flour? Yes, I think you can do that and you'll have success. You know, it might be slightly less tender, but you know, it's not going to make a significant difference. But I wouldn't swap in, say, bread flour for cake flour because there you definitely will notice a difference. It will be a tougher cake. Yeah. So cake flour, great for cakes, but not essential for cakes.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah. Let's hear from our next caller.

[Caller]

Hi there. I wanted to ask why my cake felt flat as a pancake. As soon as I took it out of the oven. It was a scratch cake. Chocolate and it rose up real pretty in the oven, and then I took it out of the oven. Next thing I know, it's flat as a pancake. So it was the chocolate cake recipe I checked. The baking powder was still fizzing around, and I'm just kind of looking for some clues about why I had to eat chocolate pancakes. Thanks.

[Jessica Batalana]

Bye.

[David Tamarkin]

I mean, I understand why she's frustrated, but chocolate pancakes sound good.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, but not when you're hoping for a cake.

[David Tamarkin]

Not when you're hoping for a cake. But just saying, I might have to make those this weekend. You know, she checked her baking powder and that was a smart thing to do because the first culprit is the leavening. So checking the powder is a smart thing to do. And the fact that her baking powder is still alive, still kicking, makes me think that perhaps there's too much of it in this recipe or maybe she's putting it in a little too generously. And I would recommend pulling back on that because what happens when you have too much leavening in a cake, no matter where it comes from, is you can get that cake to rise too high and then it leads to a great fall. That's actually life advice too, you know, don't get, don't stay humble. So that would be my first course of action, is to pull back on the baking powder, see if that makes a difference.

[Jessica Batalana]

I'm impressed that she thought to check the leavener, though. Who amongst us does that? I never do. I always just. I just hope for the best.

[David Tamarkin]

I do. But it's because my leaveners are from like 2000 in 15, and honestly, they're still kicking. But you gotta check.

[Jessica Batalana]

You should treat yourself.

[David Tamarkin]

I know. And that's about 99 cent box of baking powder. I don't know, Jessica. Maybe next year, maybe for my. Maybe as a birthday gift.

[Jessica Batalana]

I also think sometimes, you know, and this has happened to me, like, because she says that it was rising beautifully in the oven, you know, it's possible that she took it out of the oven a little too soon before the cake structure has set up entirely. So if the cake's just a little bit under baked, it's like, look, looks great. And maybe you've done the toothpick test, which I sometimes think is not as reliable as you want it to be. But what I look for with doneness is like a cake that's sort of pulling away from the sides of the pan and then I'll, I'll press gently on the center of the, the layer and just like it should spring back A little bit, you know, you want it to. You don't want to sink in.

[David Tamarkin]

Right.

[Jessica Batalana]

And so I wait for those signs of doneness before I pull it out. Because if you pull it out before it's really, truly set, like, it'll look great. And then as it cools, it just collapses. It's happened to me. And it's such a bummer.

[David Tamarkin]

It's such a bummer. Such a bummer. The pat test, the gentle press in the middle is so key. And I understand why you don't always trust the toothpick test. But I just want to tell bakers, if you have not sort of gotten used to the feel of a well baked cake in the oven, get used to it. It's so helpful. And if neither of those things worked, Break out the maple syrup.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh, yeah, Break out the maple syrup. Yeah, exactly.

[David Tamarkin]

Let's go to our next caller.

[Caller]

Sometimes I see bakers talk about reverse creaming. What exactly does that mean and why.

[Jessica Batalana]

Does it make good cake?

[David Tamarkin]

You hear bakers talk about reverse creaming because it's one of the best things ever. I love a reverse cream cake. Yeah. And I don't think I really understood just how delicious and the impact of reverse creaming until our 2022 recipe of the year, which was a coffee cake that used reverse creaming. The texture on a reverse cream cake is. I mean, it's buttery, it's dense, but.

[Jessica Batalana]

Not in a bad way. I feel like it's got, like a tightly knit crumb, but it retains some, like, plushness.

[David Tamarkin]

But it's decadent in a way. It's every.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yes. Will you tell people that don't know what reverse creaming is, is and how and why you do it?

[David Tamarkin]

Yes. So many traditional cakes start by creaming the butter and the sugar. And the point of creaming the butter and sugar is to incorporate some air into the cake that helps it rise. With reverse creaming, you cream the butter and the flour and the other dry ingredients first. This can be counterintuitive because we're all told, for good reason, to not overwork our flour because then gluten will form. And as Jessica was just talking about, with cake flour, it can lead to a texture that you don't want. However, when you cream butter and flour together, the butter coats the flour and therefore prevents gluten from forming when you add the wet ingredients. So that's the trick here. Reverse creaming, which is also known as the paste method, prevents gluten formation, resulting in a more tender cake. It is a texture unlike other cakes, and it's delicious. One other thing about reverse creaming is that the cakes tend to dome less, which can be a benefit if you're trying to stack them.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah. And I think reverse creaming is a fun technique to try if you haven't tried it before because it does really give you a cake texture unlike any other.

[David Tamarkin]

Shout out to Rose Levy Birnbaum, who really spread the word about this technique. If you want to try reverse creaming, King Arthur's Vanilla Birthday Cake and Tender White Cake are two great options. We'll put those recipes in the show notes for you.

[Jessica Batalana]

Good luck.

[David Tamarkin]

Every episode we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full throated ideas are in her head. But today we're going to a different person for these wildly surprising and full throated opinions. It's not Jessica, but it's Jessica's protege, Rossi and Ostafoulo. Also, our podcast producer, Rossy. Before you give us your Jess opinion, I have to ask, were you this opinionated before you started working with Jessica?

[Jessica Batalana]

No.

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

It's definitely rubbed off. I've learned from the best.

[Jessica Batalana]

This'll be my legacy.

[David Tamarkin]

Yeah, I can vouch for that because I knew you for a full year before Jessica joined the team and you were much more mild mannered. And now look at you. You're coming on the podcast with a hot take on cake. What is it?

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

Yes. So I know our whole episode is about birthday cake, but I'm here to argue that birthday pie is better than birthday cake.

[Jessica Batalana]

Oh boy.

[David Tamarkin]

Okay, so we already established at the beginning of the episode that this is not okay.

[Jessica Batalana]

So shots fired.

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

I heard that and I said, no, no, no, they cannot get away with this. Someone needs to defend pie and I am here. I am a little bit biased. I did write a whole book about pie. I also, the first baked good I ever learned to make was a birthday pie for my dad.

[Jessica Batalana]

There's no such thing. Okay, but.

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

But I would like to establish I think birthday pie is better for several reasons. And here's a key one. I actually am not arguing for a double crusted pie. I'm arguing for a single crusted custard or no bake or like pudding pie because I think they're so much easier to decorate with less skill. Think about, like how hard it is to stack and decorate a layer cake. Even a cake, a single layer cake, like getting the frosting to have those artful swoops is really hard. Like it always looks a little bit shabby, but if you put just like a Mound of beautiful fresh whipped cream on top of a piece. It looks professional. It looks amazing. You put the candles in, they glow on top of this cloud.

[Jessica Batalana]

Glow on top of this cloud.

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

And it's so easy.

[David Tamarkin]

This is spoken like a true person who has mastered pie crust. But plenty of people out there. The pie crust shrinks, it looks shabby. How do you get around that?

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

No, no, no, I'm here for that one too. That's where you do a cookie crust. Okay. You do a cookie crust, mix cookie crumbs or crush up graham crackers with melted butter, press it in and then that's part of like if you have your full topping coverage, like you don't even really see the edges of that crust. Works totally fine. And I'll even say this, you can do a store bought graham cracker crust if you really need to.

[David Tamarkin]

You're actually convincing me a little bit here because you could also press that cookie crust into a tart pan and get a very beautiful scalloped edge and then fill it with cream. Okay, I'm actually being convinced.

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

And here's one more is that it is so much easier to transport. The amount of times I made like a beautiful cake and then been like, well, how do I get this to the party? Like I get really nervous. I live in la, I have to drive everywhere and it just, you can't transport it. Well, it never looks as good. Whereas a pie comes in its serving vessel. You just carry it with you. It's already gorgeous and it's beautiful pie tin whether you like are using the store bought pie crust or otherwise. So it's also much easier to get to where you need to go to celebrate.

[David Tamarkin]

That's a good point.

[Jessica Batalana]

Now the one pitfall of, of the pie, although I, I do, obviously I like it. Who doesn't like a chocolate cream pie? Only a maniac. But I do think it's a little trickier to put the candles in a pie, you know, like how do you stick them into that cloud of whipped cream? But you know, that's okay. I'm getting so old that maybe I don't need the full complement of candles edge to edge anymore, you know?

[David Tamarkin]

Do you stick a candle in your pie, Rossy?

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

Yeah.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah.

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

Well, I did one last month. Lemon.

[David Tamarkin]

Oh.

[Rossi Anastapoulo]

It was Bill Smith's Atlantic beach pie. It's like basically a lemon flavored key lime pie and it's got like, it's a soft filling but it still was stiff enough that you could put it like through the whipped cream into the filling. I think I had like five candles on there. It was very, like I said, very elegant. So that is my just opinion in honor of my mentor, Jessica. I hope I did you justice.

[Jessica Batalana]

You did an impassioned defense.

[David Tamarkin]

Thanks, Rossy.

[Jessica Batalana]

David, we've just about reached the end of this episode, but before we go, I have one final question for you. What are you baking this week?

[David Tamarkin]

This week I'm making the sweet version of our recipe of the year, which is the big and bubbly focaccia. I've made that big and bubbly focaccia so many times, and I actually have taken it sweet before. I put sparkling sugar on top of it. I put chocolate into it. This focaccia goes sweet very well. And I love, I really like the interplay of the olive oil with this sweetness. It's really nice.

[Jessica Batalana]

Yeah, me too.

[David Tamarkin]

But Sarah John Powell, our test kitchen director, she came out with a brand new recipe for cinnamon roll big and bubbly focaccia. And it is. I got to taste this during testing. Why is it better than focaccia and cinnamon rolls? It's so good.

[Jessica Batalana]

Ugh, I wish. I want to make that too.

[David Tamarkin]

How about you?

[Jessica Batalana]

Well, I feel like you've convinced me to try to make this cinnamon roll focaccia, so maybe I'll add that to the list. But I'm definitely gonna make our new recipe for snacking P. They are a thing that my kids really love. It's basically like a personal pan pizza. They bake on a sheet pan so you don't need any. Like, you don't need to bust out your baking steel or stone. And they're just like these cute little pizzas that you can have as an after school snack or just like a very simple dinner. And what I like about it is our house is a house divided when it comes to pizza toppings, by which I mean my children want cheese pizza, maybe pepperoni, but nothing else. So everyone can kind of customize their own little pizza. And that plus, like, a baked salad is just a nice little dinner. So many good things to bake, so little time. But that does it for us today. Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.

[David Tamarkin]

Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.

[Jessica Batalana]

And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode with a friend.

[David Tamarkin]

We'll see you back here next week to talk about all things sourdough. In the meantime, don't forget, please follow the recipe. Just follow the recipe.

[Jessica Batalana]

Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, Jessica Badolana and me, David Tamarkin Rossi. Anastapoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chanay is our producer and engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. You'll find some of our favorite birthday cake recipes as well as other recipes for what we're baking this week in the show. Notes this episode featured Cheryl Day, who ran the legendary Dairy Back in the Day Bakery for years in Savannah, Georgia, and Bronwyn Wyatt, the baker behind Bayou Saint Cakes in New Orleans. Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.