← Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
Fudgy vs. Cakey: A Deep Dive on Brownies with David Lebovitz
00:44:47
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- [00:03]
A
That much further. You know, I love brownies so much. From King Arthur Baking Company, this is things bakers know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.
- [00:15]
B
And I'm Jessica Battalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking. Today we're talking about, really one of my favorite baked goods brownies.
- [00:27]
C
Yeah.
- [00:27]
B
Who doesn't love a brownie?
- [00:28]
A
They're everyone's favorite baker. I mean, not to take away from you and your originality. You are a very original person. However, this is one instance where your test opinion is, I think, widely shared. For once, lovable thing. I mean, there are outliers, people who don't like them, but many people, I
- [00:44]
B
feel strongly about them. I feel strongly that I love them, which I hardly ever say on the show. We should start like a love and loathe list, you know, But I. Brownies hold sort of a. I don't want to say a special place in my heart, but kind of, because it was like the first.
- [01:02]
A
I would hate to say that.
- [01:03]
B
I would hate to say that. I don't want to get all emotional so early in the day, but they were the first thing. I learned how to bake. And I remember I had a babysitter. She was, you know, several years older than I was, and she probably. She was actually like six months older. I feel like when we were kids, our babysitters were also kids, but she had 17. She had a subscription to Seventeen magazine. Seventeen magazine for a while. Had a. I don't wanna say a food section, but they did some food content. And there was a brownie recipe in there that I saw. And I was like, I'm gonna do this. So I made those brownies a lot. And it was sort of. You know, I'm always telling beginner bakers to pick a recipe and just make it multiple times.
- [01:44]
A
Yes. Get your reps in.
- [01:46]
B
But I perhaps overdid it because I made those brownies. Like, I mean, it was all I made. Like, I would show up, I would have brownies. But I will say I made, like, every possible error.
- [01:55]
A
What age are we talking about?
- [01:57]
B
I mean, probably 12.
- [02:00]
A
So you were showing up where?
- [02:02]
B
Oh, at the library.
- [02:03]
A
At the library. Oh, my gosh. Librarians were.
- [02:06]
B
Sorry. I brought the librarians brownies. Cause that was, like, my hangout.
- [02:09]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [02:10]
B
I thought the librarians were my friends. I don't. I mean, they probably were not. They just were taking pity on.
- [02:14]
A
Probably were. You were bringing them brownies?
- [02:16]
B
I was bringing them brownies. But I was like, you know, you learned the hard way. Like, what happens if I forget the eggs? Like, what happens if I use salt instead of sugar? Like, what happens if I use salt instead of sugar?
- [02:27]
A
Like, cup of salt?
- [02:28]
B
Did you do that? I don't know if did a cut, but I made errors is all I'm saying. Like, they didn't always turn out, but I kept coming back to that recipe and I have since tried to find that, you know, I mean, the Internet should be able to find anything.
- [02:41]
A
Yeah.
- [02:41]
B
So I've been, look, I've looked for that recipe. I don't remember exactly what was in those brownies, even though I made them so many times. I just remember that they were my preferred texture of brownie. And here's where we're getting right to the meat of the matter.
- [02:54]
A
Right? Exactly. She was on cover. A dividing line with so many people is, is are you a cakey brownie person or are you a fudgy brownie person? And I believe later in this episode we're going to talk about the myth of the chewy brownie.
- [03:10]
B
Well, and here's where I do have an opinion which I can save for later. But, you know, I, I am, you know, I fall into one of these camps.
- [03:16]
A
Yes.
- [03:16]
B
And as I recall, those 17 brownies, they were on the fudgier side. And you know, there's also the question of, like, do you prefer it all cocoa brownie?
- [03:27]
A
Right.
- [03:27]
B
Or do you prefer a brownie made with chocolate?
- [03:30]
A
I was just about to ask you if this was a cocoa brownie or a chocolate brownie.
- [03:34]
B
I don't remember. Isn't that pathetic? I think cocoa.
- [03:37]
A
Okay.
- [03:37]
B
I think cocoa, but I can't say for sure. But I will say, if you add melted chocolate instead of cocoa, you're going to have a wetter batter, which in turn means that you will have to add more flour. Right. Because cocoa powder, like, sucks moisture out of something which then could result in. It could result in a cakeier brownie. I mean, that's just science. I do think that cocoa brownies tend to have a more intense chocolate flavor,
- [04:13]
A
which is weird because they don't have chocolate in them.
- [04:16]
B
It is weird.
- [04:18]
A
I also think that sort of that can depend on sometimes on what unsweetened chocolate you use in your chocolate brownie. I grew up using baker's baker's, which is not a high quality chocolate. But, you know, I love the brownies I made with it. I mean, they were kind of more sweet, not super chocolatey, you know, because that chocolate just didn't have. There's probably A lot of it was probably mostly cocoa butter and not cocoa in that chocolate.
- [04:46]
B
I mean, and this is a little bit of a divertisement. I'm going to take us on. But you know, if you eat a box brownie with your eyes closed, which I did recently actually, we were, we were doing some. The R and D Kitchen here was doing some testing and they had a bunch of box brownies because, you know, of course King Arthur has two brownie mixes, our All American brownie mix and the gluten free brownie mix. And so they had made those brownies and then a host of other mixes that are available on the market. And we were tasting them and I was tasting them just for fun with my eyes closed. And quite a lot of brownie mixes, when you eat them with your eyes closed, don't actually taste like chocolate at all. They taste sweet.
- [05:30]
A
Sweet. Yeah.
- [05:31]
B
I mean, and it's interesting, you made the, the, you know, the point about like the cocoa, like brownies made with cocoa, just the cocoa butter. Right. So cocoa butter, obviously we've talked about this in our chocolate episode, is like a key part of chocolate. So cocoa brownies don't have any cocoa butter in them. And, you know, I do think that that's where some of the texture stuff comes in. Because a cocoa brownie is going to be. Well, it gets hard when it's cool.
- [06:01]
A
A chocolate brownie. Yeah, I'm sorry, a melted chocolate.
- [06:04]
B
A melted chocolate brownie gets hard when
- [06:06]
A
it's cool because it has cocoa butter in it and butter solidifies. Including cocoa butter solidifies in cooler temperatures. So I think some people like that. I mean, you get this density and you can't achieve a sort of chewiness that way. I know there are some chewy brownie recipes out there that call for chilling it and eating it sort of cold, which is sort of, I don't know, I think a cheat, you know, if that's how you get to the tree texture. But it is true, you get it. It's a much different texture. Eating a melted chocolate brownie cold than at room temp or warm.
- [06:38]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do think they. A chocolate brownie tends to dry out a little more quickly, which also tracks,
- [06:48]
A
you know, so because usually using butter, which has less water, I feel like cocoa brownies sometimes use oil.
- [06:55]
B
Yeah, they do.
- [06:56]
A
So the oil is going to keep
- [06:57]
B
it well and all, but I mean, not all. I think there's probably an alt to put melted butter in box brownies, but most of them are made with oil and that does Give you like, you know, that texture that remains the same. Cold, hot, you know, so there's. There is some kind of science to that. And, you know, I think it's going to be fairly. This is a statement of the obvious. I probably make quite a few of them on the podcast. But if you want, I mean, if you. Particularly with cocoa, but I think if you want a delicious brownie, whether it's a chocolate brownie or cocoa brownie, like you have to start with good quality chocolate or cocoa, like that's gonna. Because there's not a lot of other stuff in brownies.
- [07:37]
A
Well, some people put extra chocolate in their brownies and I think this is sort of a controversial point. You know, folding in chocolate chips or chopped chocolate at the end so that you, you know, have chips in there.
- [07:49]
B
Yeah. Where do you stand on that?
- [07:50]
A
Since coming to King Arthur, I've sort of been converted to folding chocolate chips or chopped chocolate into my brownies because of the nice crackly top you get, which is we've talked about on the show before. We. I think we had a question about that during the chocolate episode. How do you get a crackly top, shiny crackly top chip brownies, which everybody likes.
- [08:11]
B
I call that a tissue paper top. Oh, that's, you know, like, I mean, I think that's. It's a homemade version, is never going to be quite like what you get from a box where it's like, really you get that very thin layer on top. But I do think it's a, it's a desirable quality in a brand that people look for.
- [08:26]
A
Yeah.
- [08:27]
B
And yeah, we did. I mean, I, we did talk about this before, but I don't think it hurts to say again that our, you know, our testing experience, although we can't quite explain the science of it, is that if you add additional chopped chocolate or chocolate chips to your brownie batter
- [08:43]
A
at the end, you fold them in and bake them like that. That does result in a tissue paper time.
- [08:48]
B
And the thought is that it is adding just a little bit of additional sugar.
- [08:51]
A
Right.
- [08:52]
B
That dissolves and makes that crack.
- [08:55]
A
So it kind of floats to the top and almost like a meringue creates like this like little super thin layer of meringue at the top of the. Of the top of the.
- [09:04]
B
Harold McGee, if you're listening, let us know what's going on.
- [09:09]
A
Any food scientists, let us know. I mean, although, I mean, I mean, we've tested it extensively and that's our bet and we have food scientists here and that's our theory. Yeah, but but so, yeah, and it's nice, and it certainly adds way more chocolate, true chocolate flavor, especially if you're using a good chocolate add to your brownie. And so, yeah, I'm kind of into it. I mean, I don't need it, but more is more, you know, with me, if I'm gonna eat a brownie. Why not?
- [09:32]
B
Yeah, why not? I do also like a frosted. I'm not gonna go. But I do like frosted brownie.
- [09:37]
A
Okay. See, this is where this is really wild to me.
- [09:40]
B
Cause, yeah.
- [09:41]
A
I mean, we recently published a recipe for frosted brownies that were sort of a copycat recipe of the cosmic brownies that little Debbie does never have. I was. I was an oatmeal pie little deadly person, not a cosmic brownie person. That's totally out of realm for me. I do not.
- [09:59]
B
The cosmic brownie.
- [10:00]
A
No, the frosted brownie. I mean, I like sugar, but, like, that's really guilty of the little bit
- [10:06]
B
I want to talk for a second about. So, again, brownies, relatively short ingredient list.
- [10:11]
A
Yes.
- [10:12]
B
But I want to talk about eggs, because in general, a fudgier brownie is going to contain fewer whole eggs, and a cakeier brownie is going to contain more. And, you know, you were talking earlier about really liking chewy brownies, and I have. I think there's a correlation between a chewy brownie and the number of egg yolks. Like, often a chewy brownie has more egg yolks added to it.
- [10:39]
A
Yeah. And that, to me, is a pretty. That's an advanced brownie recipe that has fails. If you're separating eggs to make a brownie, I think you're in sort of advanced territory because to your point before, you mentioned that this recipe, 17 brownie recipe, was one.
- [10:55]
B
I wasn't separating eggs.
- [10:57]
A
Right. I mean, most. Most brownie recipes are one bowl. And that's sort of the appeal of them, that you can bring them together with pantry ingredients so quickly if you're separating the eggs. Wow. You're committed. But, yeah, that makes sense to me. I mean, again, less water. Right. I think there's a lot of water in egg whites. Removing that and adding. Keeping the fat.
- [11:15]
B
Yeah.
- [11:16]
A
I think sugar plays a big role in cherry brownie as well.
- [11:19]
B
Yes.
- [11:19]
A
And there are some. There's some methods that I like. I really like a brownie recipe. And this is also advanced, where you simmer the butter. I guess I've only seen this done with butter. You want to do this with oil, but you melt the butter in a pan, add the sugar and let it simmer and really cook down and reduce in the pan before incorporating it into the rest of the butter. The Canal House folks, their brownie recipe does this and it's an extra step and you know, you let it go for a few minutes.
- [11:50]
B
Interesting.
- [11:50]
A
But you're boiling out the water.
- [11:52]
B
Yeah. In the butter.
- [11:53]
A
In the butter. But you're also getting the sugar to a certain temp, you know, that you might not be able to get it to otherwise. Cause you know in most recipes you're just whisking the sugar in.
- [12:02]
B
Yeah.
- [12:03]
A
So that can contribute to a really nice chewy texture or chewier texture. And also. Also helps with that tissue paper towel.
- [12:10]
B
I mean, that's interesting. I've never made that recipe, although I have a very clear image in my mind of that page in their cookbook where they've. Because they are a good looking brownie.
- [12:19]
A
Yeah.
- [12:19]
C
Yeah.
- [12:21]
B
Thank you so much. But you know, the elephant in the room, always the elephant in the room here at King Arthur is flour. And brownies are actually a bake that do not really use that much flour.
- [12:33]
A
Like just enough to hold it together.
- [12:35]
B
Just enough to hold it together.
- [12:36]
A
I feel like it's usually half a cup. I don't prefer an 8 by 8 or 9 by 9. Yeah.
- [12:40]
B
I mean, it's really relying on the eggs and the fat for structure. And that's why I think it's really like gluten free. Brownies are really great.
- [12:50]
A
Yeah.
- [12:51]
B
Because you're not counting on flour to do a ton of the. You know, a lot of brownies have no leavener at all, you know, as you like. It's sort of almost like a, you know, a flourless cake.
- [13:01]
A
Yep. Right.
- [13:03]
B
So if you're swapping in measure for measure or using an alternative flour, like it kind of doesn't matter that much. Cause there's not enough. Like the flour's not doing a lot of heavy lifting.
- [13:12]
A
Yeah. To add a little bit of structure. I think that I'm glad you said alternative flours because flour brownies are a great vehicle for rye flour.
- [13:21]
B
Yeah.
- [13:22]
A
Spelt flour anytime Buckwheat, you can. It's hard to taste these things through all that chocolate. Although I do think rye can fight through and you can get that flavor. But it's a great place to experiment with other flowers. I believe we're going to a conversation with David Leibovitz.
- [13:37]
B
We are. David Leibovitz, of course, is just like. I mean, he's such a star baker. He was for a long time the pastry Chef at Chez Panisse. He has written, gosh, I don't know how many cookbooks, but quite a few cookbooks.
- [13:51]
A
Some classics.
- [13:52]
B
Yeah. For Dessert, which was just reissued.
- [13:55]
A
We used his ice cream book in my house.
- [13:57]
B
Ice cream book. He's the author of My Paris Kitchen, which is a very funny recipe memoir about moving to Paris and his life there. But just like a really generous and smart baker. And he has a lot of thoughts about brownies. And it was interesting also to talk to him about, like, are brownies a thing in Paris? So super fun conversation and I'm really glad he was able to join us.
- [14:21]
A
Can't wait.
- [14:23]
B
When we were talking about this episode and thinking about who to have come on, I was like, we gotta have David. Because, you know, I mean, I think you have such a huge following on your substack. Like, your books are so great. You do so much rigorous testing of all your recipes. And I know that you are a man that knows his way around a brownie. So I thought it would be fun for us to chat about that today. And one of the first things I was thinking about is, you know, I think brownies have like a very American identity, like a very American sort of bake sale identity.
- [14:56]
C
And only Americans can bake them. I've learned.
- [14:59]
B
Well, I was thinking to you. Cause I saw you, you said something on your substack, you know, a few years ago, I think you wrote that you hadn't had good brownies outside of the United States. So I was sort of curious about how they're perceived. You now live in Paris, and there's a lot to recommend Paris. But perhaps brownies is not one of the things. I don't know.
- [15:17]
C
Well, some bakeries do have them. And there was a bakery over in my last. My previous neighborhood, and they were making le brownies and they were really not good. And I like the bakery. So I gave them my recipe. I said, try this one, it's really good. And then I went in there and they were like, really dried out and terrible.
- [15:35]
B
Oh, no.
- [15:36]
C
And it's not an insult to anybody, but some things just have to be made in or by a certain person or in a certain country to taste the same way.
- [15:48]
B
Yeah. What? And I, you know, because I think like, brownies are a thing that people have, like a lot of nostalgia wrapped up in. Like on, you know, often it's like it's the first. In my case, it was like the first recipe I learned how to bake. So I. I do feel. And there are other baked goods Where I would say this is similar, but the brownie that you grew up with, I think sometimes, like, has an outside, like, you know. Hold on, you.
- [16:14]
C
Brownies, sort of, like, in theory, like, shouldn't work. It's like a very moist cake, but it's not. They're never. Well, they should never be dry. They hold together when you slice them. That's another thing. They can't fall apart.
- [16:29]
A
Right.
- [16:30]
C
They need to be very moist and they need to be very chocolatey.
- [16:35]
B
Yeah. And it's interesting because I think, you know, and we talked about this earlier in the episode, like, I think brownies fall along a couple of lines, right? Like, there are chocolate brownies and within that, there's, like, the subset of, like, ones that are made with unsweetened chocolate, and then there are cocoa brownies. And I think of cocoa brownies as being, like, particularly pantry friendly. Right. Like, I don't always have unsweetened chocolate on hand, but I pretty much always have cocoa.
- [17:00]
C
Well, unsweetened chocolate is actually quite hard to find in France. When I went to chocolate school in Belgium, I went to. It was a chocolate company and we used to buy their chocolate in America. When I was a pastry chef, I said, how come I can't get your unsweetened chocolate here in Europe? And they go, because no one uses it here. It's very American.
- [17:22]
B
I, you know, something that's. I have noticed, like, you know, over time, obviously, you've riffed on brownies, like, one gajillion times in your career. In your revised ready for dessert, there's a cheesecake brownie.
- [17:34]
C
I love those. And this in another book, I have one with dulce de leche, which is called confiture d'.
- [17:40]
B
Ole.
- [17:41]
C
And that was something that I came up with when I was. I just moved to France and I would see these big pots of co feature dulet at cheese stores. And I was like, that looks suspiciously like dulce de leche. And it's not, you know, it's made with cow's milk rather than goat's milk. Goat's milk, which is infinitely better, which I think is the original, But I'm not 100% sure. But I was like, I'm going to bake these in brownies and see how it turns out. It was amazing.
- [18:09]
B
You dollop it on top.
- [18:10]
C
Yeah.
- [18:11]
B
So that's. I was going to ask you, like, what are some ways to sort of, like, elevate a brownie without making them fussy? That's a very good one, I think.
- [18:19]
C
Mix Ins. You know, Thin Mints are really good. I too love Thin Mints. I have a recipe in my chocolate book that's coming out for the candied cocoa nibs that are like really crunchy. If you put them on top, they get like, they provide this like crunchy, crackly crust. Oh, yeah. So I think, you know, experimenting, I like to add things to brownies. I like chocolate chips in them. I like cocoa nibs, I like nuts.
- [18:48]
B
You've written a little bit about, you know, whatever brownie formula you're following just the importance of sort of like watching those brownies in the oven like a hawk and taking them out. So let's talk about that. Like, how do you know when your brownie's done? What should you be going for? Cause I do think an over baked brownie is a terrible thing.
- [19:06]
C
Well, Michael Racutti, who's a chocolatier in the San Francisco Bay area, who's a wonderful chocolatier and baker, he told me once, like, always take like chocolate desserts out like five or 10 minutes before they're interesting.
- [19:20]
B
Interesting.
- [19:21]
C
And that's not an exact quote, but it's to that effect. Yeah, I, I always tell people, you know, like, when you see a recipe says bake for 25 minutes, your oven's going to be different than mine. I have two different ovens and they're both given. I've got thermometers in both. They bake very differently.
- [19:39]
B
Yeah.
- [19:40]
C
So, you know, I'm like, go by texture, touch it, and also make the same recipe over and over again. You're like, you know, they're burnt. Okay, how can I fix this?
- [19:52]
B
Have you served American style brownies to your French friends? And are they just like, we're not into it or do they like them?
- [19:58]
C
No, people like them. The great thing, once again, about brownies is you have the ingredients and they can be in the oven literally in 15 minutes and servable, you know, within the hour.
- [20:10]
B
Yeah.
- [20:10]
C
So they're very easy to make and they're. Who doesn't love chocolate?
- [20:14]
B
I know.
- [20:15]
C
Unfortunately, little by little, French people are getting more used to American foods.
- [20:22]
B
For better, for better, for worse. Jinx.
- [20:25]
C
Well, do you know, it's interesting. Something like 83% of restaurants in France now have a hamburger on the menu. And that's not fast food restaurants. That's all restaurants.
- [20:34]
B
All restaurants. Well, a brownie is sure to follow. You know, it's just a few steps behind, maybe. I don't know.
- [20:41]
C
Well, you know, basically, you know, brownie is a gateau chocolate A friend of mine who lives on my website, I have a recipe for my friend. My friend Ellen's brownies. She made them for me when I was down in. They live near Angoulen. And I was like, oh, these are really delicious. They were. They sort of broke the rules for what a brownie is supposed to be, but they were delicious. So I put the recipe up, and they're thin. It's basically a thin chocolate cake batter. But it's somebody's interpretation of brownies.
- [21:16]
B
So if you had to eat one brownie for the rest of your days, which of your recipes would you choose?
- [21:27]
C
That's a really good question. Probably the Kate and Dave's ones. That's in my chocolate book.
- [21:33]
B
Okay.
- [21:34]
C
Just because it's a very basic brownie, but it's really. They're really, really good.
- [21:41]
B
I'm excited to try the recipe. I don't think I have made that. I've made lots of your recipes over the years. I love them. Some of them have become mainstays of our life, including. I know I've told you this before, but your bourbon chocolate pecan pie is a mainstay at Thanksgiving. I've made your salted caramel sauce more times than I can count. Like, they're just. You're a total, you know, a gem of a baker, a gem of a person, and I'm excited to see the revised Great Book of Chocolate. Well, it's always a treat to talk to you. I'm sorry, we only get to it, like, once every 12 years. Latest, updated version of the Great Book of Chocolate will be out May 5th. People can find you on davidlebovitz.substack.com we'll put links to all of that in the show notes. And everyone should go and make the Dave and Kate's brownies.
- [22:28]
C
And I want to just give a shout out to King Arthur, who has done an amazing job over the years just promoting bakers, helping bakers, being a very aware company as well, making sure, you know, keeping holding people together through baking, which is so important now, especially nowadays when things have become fractured. Baking is something that really brings people together and is a joyful activity, but it's also, and I hate to use the word because it sounds like a cliche, but nourishes our soul, but it's true. So thank you, King Arthur, for. And everybody there, for being such good people and helping people to become better bakers.
- [23:11]
B
You're the best. You're the best. I know. Hand me the tissues. No, we appreciate you and I think we share that sentiment. Thank you and let's talk again soon.
- [23:28]
D
Hey, it's Frances Lam, host of the Splendid Table podcast. Every week on our show, we celebrate the intersection of food and life. And this month we're releasing a new series called Culinary Masters. It highlights some of the most iconic people in the food world. And we're revisiting conversations with people who have fundamentally changed how many of us cook and think about food. People like Jacques Pepin, Claudia Rodin, and Tony Bourdain, to name a few. You can listen to this special series now. Just search for the Splendid Table in your podcast.
- [24:02]
A
This episode is sponsored by Curio Spice Company, a woman owned mission driven spice company. And let me tell you something, Jessica, if you are somebody who thinks that spices and brownies do not go together, listen up. The da lat spice they sell, it's a blend of coffee, cocoa nibs, cinnamon, star anise. I'm sorry, I would put all of those things in my brownie. It sounds delicious. From now on, my brownies are spiced brownies. They're dilat brownies, and they're duh licious. Okay, at least I got you to laugh. Listeners just turned off the podcast.
- [24:35]
B
You know what I also like to do to my brownies is, you know, and chocolate chip cookies, but sprinkle them with a little flaky salt at the end. And Curio Spice company has that delicious cypress salt, you know, the big flake, which is a really nice finishing touch. Why is salt and chocolate so great together? We should talk about that on a future episode.
- [24:52]
A
You can find lots of Curio Spice Co. Spices@kingarthurbaking.com and of course, you can find their food full collection@curiospice.com c u r I o spice.com this episode is brought to you by Supernatural. Supernatural makes sprinkles food colors and flavors that are completely colored by plants, fully traceable and totally free from anything artificial or synthetic.
- [25:19]
B
And it's just a proven fact. It is just a proven fact that sprinkles make everything more fun. So you can add them to your pancake battery. You can sprinkle them on your ice cream. And of course you can use them to top a frosted cake.
- [25:32]
A
Yeah, or a brownie. I mean, or a brownie. There's a very popular brownie out there that has sprinkles on it. I don't mess with that, but I will mess with this.
- [25:41]
B
Supernatural Sprinkles, food colors, flavors and more@Kingarthurbaking.com and the full line is available at supernatural kitchen.com. This episode is brought to you by our best selling gluten free fudge brownie mix. And here's a little secret for you, David. This is my favorite brownie mix. Despite the fact that I am not gluten free. And I'm not alone, People love these brownies no matter their dietary preferences. They're fudgy, tender, super decadent. Easy enough for my 12 year old to make them. It's the thing he always requests that I bring back. I have a little secret, you know, because I am not gluten free, I do like to hack this mix a little bit.
- [26:28]
A
I know you do.
- [26:30]
B
So, you know, I'm just gonna offer my tip, which is that I like to add a couple of tablespoons of all purpose flour to our gluten free brownie mix, which I think gives it for me the ultimate texture. So, you know, people might wanna try that. But they're also perfect as written. If you are following a gluten free diet.
- [26:49]
A
There really is a cult around these brownies.
- [26:52]
B
They're great.
- [26:53]
A
Sister is gluten free and she. Oh, sorry, gluten free. We got some comments on my pronunciation of gluten.
- [27:00]
B
It's a T, not a D. Yeah, right.
- [27:02]
A
And she and her friends are now obsessed with this brownie. And like you said, those who eat gluten and those who do not, they all love this brownie.
- [27:09]
B
Yeah, it's a great brownie. And you can find the mix on our website, but it's also available on grocery store shelves around the country.
- [27:17]
A
The blue box.
- [27:18]
B
The blue box, yeah. It's time for our next segment. Ask the Bakers for Ask the Bakers. We want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast.
- [27:38]
A
And of course, if you simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to us at our baker's hotline via phone, via email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com Bakers Hotline. That's Bakers Hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in B A K
- [28:01]
B
E. Let's hear our brownie questions. Hi, this is Julie from Winchester, Massachusetts. I prefer fudgy brownies, but I don't like them when they're kind of raw inside. What makes a brownie more fudgy versus cakey.
- [28:19]
A
Okay. You know, I mean, this sounds sort of silly at the onset. Like you don't like a raw brownie. Of course you don't like a raw brownie. But in fact, I think a lot of people do. Like an under baked brownie is almost like molten. Yeah, they do don't know what the food safety on that is, so I'm not going to comment.
- [28:37]
B
Yeah, I mean, and we talked in the top of the show a lot about sort of like what makes a fudgy versus a cakey brownie. So I think hopefully we've answered that question. Do you know what?
- [28:46]
A
There is one thing we didn't talk about though, which is we talked about flour, but it's the amount of flour does, I think have a big impact on whether it's fudgy or cake. And if you have a fudgy brownie recipe that you want to make cakeier, you can just throw in some more flour. It will make it cakeier. It will.
- [29:04]
B
That's. That's true. It will, Jessica.
- [29:06]
A
It will. Skepticism on your face.
- [29:08]
B
No, I also think we didn't. I don't see many brownies that use this method anymore. But you know, if you were to treat your butter and sugar for a brownie the way that you do for a cake, like if you were to cream butter and sugar.
- [29:22]
A
Yes. Right.
- [29:23]
B
And then add in the other ingredients that you, you know, you would end up with something cakeier because you're using, you know, a technique that incorporates air.
- [29:30]
A
Right. So it's about the leavening because also if you throw in some chemical leavening to your brownies, you're gonna get a cake or brownie because again, same reason why doing the creaming gives you a cake or brownie. It's gonna add.
- [29:44]
B
Yeah.
- [29:45]
A
A little off to the.
- [29:46]
B
Exactly. But I do think, you know, the question about doneness is, is not a silly question because I do think it can be hard. Especially if you get, you know, a brownie that gets that sort of, you know, crackly top. It can be hard. You know, like the toothpick test. Like sometimes you insert the toothpick and then that crackly top like basically wipes your toothpick clean. It can be hard to tell when it's done enough, but not too done.
- [30:11]
A
It can't. You don't want a clean toothpick out of a brownie.
- [30:14]
B
You don't want a clean toothpick out of a brownie. Let's go to our next question.
- [30:19]
A
Hi, this is London calling From Falmouth, Maine.
- [30:23]
B
Love your show, especially our hometown baking hero, Jessica. I'm calling with a question about cocoa. What kind of cocoa is best for brownies?
- [30:36]
A
Can't wait to hear you guys chat about that.
- [30:38]
B
Thanks.
- [30:38]
A
Bye.
- [30:41]
B
This is. This is a great question. And we've talked about cocoa powder before. I think, you know, in. In some cases there is like a functional reason to use a natural cocoa versus a Dutch processed cocoa, you know, versus a black cocoa. Because they do interact with the leaveners differently. In the case of brownies, that's not really coming into play because they typically have little, if any, chemical leavener added. So what we're really talking about here is flavor.
- [31:08]
A
Yep. And so you can use any. So technically, you can use any cocoa you want in a brownie. Really. It just comes down to flavor. And I also think for me, kind of comes down to color, too. Like some of these, you know, a natural cocoa, which is. Can be very light brown, almost reddish.
- [31:26]
C
Yes.
- [31:26]
A
It's going to give you a brownie that. To my eyes, it's not going to be that appealing.
- [31:32]
B
Oh, yeah. Just doesn't look as dark.
- [31:33]
A
No, it just. It's going to look like a pale brownie, perhaps. And then black cocoa on the other end of the spectrum, I think has an intensity too intense that I'm just not looking for in my brownies. Also going to make it jet black, which, again, is not what I'm looking for aesthetically. So I, you know, just go by looks. I'm just very shallow. I'm just here for the looks of the brownie.
- [31:54]
B
Well, the black cocoa gives things like, you know, almost like the. I describe as the flavor of like an Oreo cookie. Like, it's. It is that sort of, like intense, almost bitter.
- [32:03]
A
Yeah, it's delicious. I love it. But it's not. I wouldn't use 100% black cocoa flour.
- [32:09]
B
Well, and, you know, Alice was telling me that she makes like, pastes of cocoa and eats them plain.
- [32:14]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [32:15]
B
You know, just to get a sense of what the cocoa. The quality of it, you know, I mean, and she's a super taster. But I was thinking, you know, it's not a terrible idea for a home baker to kind of be thinking about that way, because they really do have differences in flavor, you know, from brand to brand. You know, natural versus Dutch process. Like, there's going to be different levels of acidity. Like, they will have different flavors. So, you know, her advice was like, well, figure out what cocoa you like the flavor of and let that guide You. Which is, I mean, obvious, but nobody does it. And very smart, I think.
- [32:47]
A
Yeah.
- [32:48]
B
When I make brownies, I usually use our double dark cocoa because I feel like that's sort of a. It's a combination of natural and Dutch processed cocos, and I think that has a really nice balanced flavor. If you wanted something that has some of that black cocoa, our triple cocoa blend is a combination of all three. So natural, Dutch process and black cocoa.
- [33:11]
A
And that's what I use.
- [33:12]
B
Oh, it is, yeah. Okay.
- [33:13]
A
I mean, I just think that. And I think that's the answer. Like, well, you can use whatever cocoa you want, but a blend is going to give you a nice combination of elements, different cocoas, and it's going to add some nice nuance and the perfect amount of color to your brownie. So. And if you're not. If you can't find a blend, I would say you can just the Hershey's cocoa on the. It's going to be fine. Like, any cocoa powder that you get on the grocery store, I think on the typical grocery store shelf is going to work in your brownie just fine.
- [33:42]
B
Yeah, I mean, it'll definitely work. And I do think, like I said earlier in the show, I mean, the better the flavor of the cocoa, the better the flavor of the brownie.
- [33:50]
A
Yeah. You get what with chocolate, you get what you pay for.
- [33:52]
B
It's true. I mean, we talked about that in the chocolate episode.
- [33:55]
A
It's not necessarily cheap time for chocolate, but it's also for some people, a more affordable luxury. So, yeah, you could. You can spring for the one level up of cocoa. It's gonna make a big difference.
- [34:05]
B
Yeah, I agree. Let's hear our next question.
- [34:10]
A
I see some recipes for brownies that use oil and some recipes that use butter in them. How are they different and which one's the actual best version?
- [34:20]
B
I said earlier something about, like, well, better is subjective. And you were like, I.
- [34:25]
A
No, I just. I don't. I am a 100% butter brownie person. Yeah. With the exception of when I'm making a box mix. I actually did make our all American brownie mix the other day. I had it in the cabinet and my husband had made some gelato. And I was like, well, you can't eat gelato without a carb. So I was like, I'll just make this brownie mix. And in that mix, you do have the option of using melted butter or oil. And I chose oil because that, to me, is the vibe of a boxed brownie. Like, it's gonna keep the you know, it's gonna keep it fresher for longer or the texture's gonna stay for longer. It's gonna be a little chewier. So that's fine. When I'm going for boxed brownie realness, I'll choose oil. But if I'm making a brownie from scratch, I've never even heard of using oil and brownie from scratch. You know, I always use butter.
- [35:16]
B
I will say, though, you know that there was a. The previous question about doneness. And I will say that the margin of error with a butter brownie versus the margin of error with an oil brownie is a little narrower. Right. Like, I think you have to nail the bake on a butter brownie.
- [35:32]
A
You can, because you're saying you can dry it out.
- [35:33]
B
You can dry it out. And in fact, I did this just the other day. I made. Well, you know, I was going to take the fall for this, but in fact, it was my wife that. Over baked.
- [35:41]
A
Yeah, let's start.
- [35:42]
B
They were slightly over baked.
- [35:43]
A
Yeah.
- [35:44]
B
Not tragically over baked, but slightly over baked. And they, you know, they were a little dry. And then of course, the next day there were some leftover and. And they were drier still. But honestly, we revitalized those with a, like a quick hit in the microwave and a scoop of ice cream.
- [36:01]
A
That's what I'm saying. Like you're going to put ice cream on it.
- [36:03]
B
It was fine.
- [36:04]
A
Who cares?
- [36:04]
B
I mean, you know, were they a little drier? Sure. But I think the flavor of butter is superior.
- [36:10]
A
It wins.
- [36:11]
B
It wins. It's gonna win any arm wrestling competition. So if this question comes up again, always butter is the answer, right?
- [36:17]
A
That is the definitive answer. That is correct answer. There is no other way. Just choose butter.
- [36:23]
B
Just choose butter. Great. Okay.
- [36:26]
A
All right. So that's my David Pinion. All butter and brownies.
- [36:31]
B
But you're always trying to educate.
- [36:32]
A
We're not opinions.
- [36:33]
B
Aren't you?
- [36:34]
A
I'm not.
- [36:35]
B
You want a new segment?
- [36:36]
A
No, I don't. I'm setting up. This is my transition into the most important segment of all of our podcasts. Every week we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full throated ideas are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess Opinions. Jessica, it's all about you. What is your Jess opinion about brownies?
- [36:57]
B
This one. I think I want to have some discussion with you because I actually don't know where you stand on this.
- [37:01]
A
Oh, oh, I'm allowed to speak in this segment now. Okay, let's do it.
- [37:05]
B
I'M tapping you in. You know, our test kitchen worked on a recipe for something that is quite popular and it was sort of surprising that we didn't already have a recipe for it, which is brownie brittle. So brownie brittle, for those who, I don't know, have just come out of a seven year coma, is brownie batter that's spread very thinly in a pan and the point is to make it like a crack, like a cookie, like a, like dry and crumbly. I'm already, I'm already tipping my hand about my jest opinion.
- [37:44]
A
I would have said crispy.
- [37:46]
B
Yeah, yeah, you would have said crispy and I would have said dry and crumbly. Because here's where I give the Jess opinion. I hate brownie brittle.
- [37:53]
A
Oh, you hate it?
- [37:54]
B
I hate it.
- [37:55]
A
No.
- [37:56]
B
Huh. I just think it, it's everything that's good about a brownie. I mean, if you are a lover of a fudgy brownie, what business does brownie brittle have in your life?
- [38:07]
A
I think you're getting caught up in the name a little bit too much. Well, I mean, like, if someone gave you a plate of brownie brittle and
- [38:13]
B
say, here's dusty chocolate crumbs, I'd still say, no, thank you.
- [38:19]
A
Yeah, well, yes, if they said that. But they said, here's, here's my chocolate crispy chocolate cookie edges or my, here are my thin crispy chocolate bars.
- [38:31]
B
No, I don't think so.
- [38:33]
A
I think there's something sort of addictive about them. They're sort of like, like potato chips. They're crisp. I like the texture. They're, they're sweet and chocolatey. And I think we've discussed this on the show recently. I'm like really into biscotti right now. And so, like they're not that far.
- [38:47]
B
You're really pushing your Italian first gelato, now biscotti. Like, we get it.
- [38:51]
A
I'm a Italian now. Yeah, we get it.
- [38:55]
B
You took a Roman holiday.
- [38:56]
A
Yeah, right, I did. No, but even before that into biscotti. I know, texture thing.
- [39:01]
B
Yeah.
- [39:02]
A
Like I want. I would appreciate if every time I got a cup of coffee anywhere. Oh, they put a little brownie brittle on the. Oh, yeah, I would love that. Sure.
- [39:12]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [39:13]
A
Yeah. I feel like sometimes something soft with
- [39:15]
B
my coffee, sometimes these Jess opinions lead me to some self discovery. And I was just thinking like, do I like a crunchy chocolate thing? I love a biscotti. But do I like a chocolate biscotti? I don't know that I do. So maybe this is a blanket Statement.
- [39:30]
A
So would you like Blondie Brittle?
- [39:35]
B
Does that exist? I mean, it's like a thin. We should invent this recipe. I'm going to call the test kitchen as soon as we finish this episode. Get it in the pipeline. I mean, Blondie Brittle, it's like a
- [39:46]
A
thin and crispy, butterscotchy type things.
- [39:49]
B
Oh, I think this is a good idea. I think this has legs. Okay, Sarah Jeffel.
- [39:53]
A
We took a negative and turned it into a positive. We did.
- [39:56]
B
We did. I mean, it's a new year, New us.
- [39:57]
A
Maybe you should bring me into Jess opinion a little bit more.
- [40:00]
B
I guess so. Well, what do you. If not browning brittle, if not gelato, if not biscotti. What are you baking this week?
- [40:11]
A
Oh, pizza lasagna, cacio. Pepe, you know, you're just method acting
- [40:18]
B
your way through the Italian canon.
- [40:21]
A
Actually, on my list for this week is. I believe this is a Swedish bake. I'm gonna have to double check that. Rossi is double checking that as we Nordic bake. Nordic bake. And we have had some comments in on the podcast, you know, some reviews, which we read the reviews. Thank you for the reviews. Please send more reviews, even the ones that criticize my pronunciation of things like the word gluten.
- [40:46]
C
Oh, I didn't.
- [40:47]
B
I didn't read that one. Norwegian.
- [40:48]
A
Okay, so. So this is a Norwegian bake. Thank you, Rossy. And I'm going to attempt to pronounce this. I will probably butcher it. I apologize. The Norwegians are just Norway.
- [40:56]
B
They're at their keyboards right now ready to write in.
- [40:58]
A
Go.
- [40:59]
B
Go on.
- [41:00]
A
Solskin Bohler.
- [41:01]
B
I think that's right.
- [41:02]
A
Yeah, it's probably right.
- [41:02]
B
Solskjkin Bowler.
- [41:03]
A
Otherwise, I'm gonna. Sun buns. These are wildly delicious. I mean, it's a soft, sweet, yeasted dough with a, you know, sort of yellow pastry cream in the middle. It looks like this very sunny looking center.
- [41:20]
B
Just yellow from, like, the addition of egg yolks. Yeah, it's not a lemon.
- [41:25]
A
It's not a lemon thing.
- [41:27]
B
Where was I when these were being developed?
- [41:29]
A
It's a vanilla custard. And the recipe we have on our site comes from Trin Hanman, who wrote Scandinavian Baking, which is a great book. I've made some cookies from that book, and they're really good. So anyway, I was. I grabbed one in the test kitchen. I don't know where you were. I think it was. I was here by myself and I just grabbed six sun buns, you know, and ate them crying in the closet. And it made me feel better. They are so good. And, you know, we're not quite in spring or summer yet, so, like, Vermont, we're not.
- [42:00]
B
And this is, I think, the hardest time of the year because, you know, elsewhere, say, like, you know, one of our producers lives in California, and she's all like, oh, strawberries. Like, oh, rhubarb's old nuke. Yeah. And meanwhile, back here, we're still eating, like, root vegetables now with. Now with sprouts.
- [42:18]
A
So to channel some of that Rossi energy, I'm making sun buns to sort of, you know, get ready for spring.
- [42:24]
B
Yeah, that sounds great. I, you know, I'm in, of course, like, a similar position where you just, like, you're waiting and you're waiting and you're waiting, and it's not happening. And so what to do but eat more cheese now?
- [42:35]
A
Yeah.
- [42:35]
B
There's a recipe on our site, and it's bulking season. Yeah, it's bulking season. It's a Yotam Odilengi recipe. For these, again, I'm going to do my best on the pronunciation. It's a cheese and mint kaak K A apostrophe, AKA so good. And it's, you know, it's a. Like a bread pocket. Well, it's. How do I describe it? Why am I having trouble with words? It is a stuffed bread, is what it is. And it's stuffed with grated halloumi cheese, which I love. One of my favorites, like, salty that's mixed with cream cheese, but it also has fresh mint added to it, which I think I feel like fresh mint is like a nice sort of gateway herb right now. Like, you can get it at the grocery store even at this time of year when there's nothing really fresh and green. And it does bring the sort of vibrancy.
- [43:21]
A
Yeah.
- [43:22]
B
And then they get coated in sesame seeds and pan or. And baked like that, so they are a little crunchy on the outside, and they have the salty cheese, and they're. They're fun to make, and they're just like a great little snack or, like, side dish to a meal.
- [43:37]
C
Yeah.
- [43:37]
B
While we wait for spring. And wait and wait. And while we're waiting, we thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.
- [43:50]
A
Please remember to like us. Subscribe to us. If you don't subscribe right now, please
- [43:54]
B
remember to like us. It's like a subliminal message.
- [43:57]
A
And please leave a review wherever you Listen, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music,
- [44:03]
B
or where you watch. You know, we're out here.
- [44:04]
A
Or where you watch.
- [44:05]
B
We're out here on videos now and leave us a review while you're there. Or share an episode with a friend.
- [44:12]
A
Yep. And remember folks, do not forget. Always follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tumorkin and me, Jessica Battalana Rossi Anastapoulo is our senior producer, Chad Chanay is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala
- [44:31]
B
thanks again to David Leibovitz for appearing on today's episode. You can find more about him and his work@david leibovitz.com Things Bakers Know is
- [44:40]
A
a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.