Podcast Summary: Things Bakers Know – “New York Pizza: the Iconic Slice, with Wylie Dufresne”

Date: April 6, 2026
Hosts: David Tamarkin & Jessica Battilana
Guests: Wylie Dufresne (Chef & Owner, Stretch Pizza NYC), Martin Philip (Co-author, Book of Pizza)

Episode Overview

This episode is an enthusiastic, in-depth dive into New York style pizza—the history, signature characteristics, how to make it at home, and why it holds such a unique place in American food culture. Hosts David Tamarkin and Jessica Battilana are joined by innovative chef Wylie Dufresne and expert baker Martin Philip, each offering technical tips, personal stories, and a bit of friendly debate. The episode wraps with a spirited discussion of pizza opinions and hands-on advice for baking better New York pizza at home.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Significance of New York Pizza

• [01:08] The episode starts with a celebration of New York style as not just a regional favorite but, arguably, the quintessential image of pizza in the U.S.
• “It’s the pizza that people think of when they think of pizza.” —Jessica [01:08]
• [02:01] Lombardi’s (est. 1907) is named as America’s first pizzeria, highlighting NY’s historic role in popularizing pizza in the U.S.

2. Defining Features of New York Style Pizza

• Thin, Large, and Foldable Slices:
  • About 14 inches, traditionally cut into oversized slices.
  • "If it's not spilling over the paper plate... you're at the wrong slice shop." —Jessica [05:52]
• Sold by the Slice:
  • NY pizza culture is “about the slice”—quick, hot, affordable, and omnipresent.
  • “It's just nourishing… it just changes my mood.” —David [04:20]
• The ‘Twice Bake/Reheat’:
  • Slices reheated in a hot deck oven to restore crisp, melty perfection.
    • “It’s revitalized. The cheese is melty, the… undercarriage is crisp.” —David [06:47]
• Crispy, Yet Chewy Crust:
  • No “dip tip”—a good slice stays straight when held from the edge [06:56], even when oversized.
  • “What separates the curd from the whey is the crust.” —Jessica [08:07]
• Flavorful, Fermented Dough:
  • Cold ferment (often 24+ hours) for rich, slightly sweet, yeasty flavor.
  • “The crust has some age on it... that fermentation period is what's giving it that flavor.” —David [08:30]
• Dough Traditions:
  • Traditionally yeasted and with a small amount of sugar for browning and flavor [09:39].
  • Modern innovations include sourdough, biga, and other preferments, but classic NY crust is yeasted [09:27].

3. Sauce and Cheese: Techniques and Debates

• Sauce:
  • Traditional NY sauce has some sweetness (from sugar or from high quality tomatoes).
    • “What we say in the book is New York pizza sauce has a little bit of sweetness to it…” —David [02:41]
• Cheese:
  • Always low-moisture, whole milk mozzarella, usually shredded; even “blanket” coverage [03:53].
  • Wylie Dufresne prefers “cheese first” on his pies, with sauce layered over (for a moisture barrier) [18:53].

4. Wylie Dufresne on ‘Third Wave’ New York Pizza

Interview: [10:15 – 21:30]

• Personal Pizza Journey:
  • Grew up on NY pizza; started making pizza at home (12” pies) during quarantine—wanted to recreate the experience of NY slice pizza, albeit smaller [10:49].
• Signature Characteristics:
  • Sees great NY pizza as “crispy, crunchy, and chewy”—crisp on the bottom, crunchy in the middle (airy pockets), chewy crust at the edge [12:21].
  • “A great New York slice is crispy, crunchy, and chewy… the crunch part is for me… most important because that’s where you really have the opportunity to taste the dough.” [12:21]
• Dough Technique:
  • Uses a biga/preferment (modern, not traditional), followed by 3-day cold fermentation for flavor and texture [14:04].
  • “Fermentation… is part of the process. We’re always trying to optimize fermentation.” [14:47]
• Sauce Secrets:
  • No sugar added (contrary to old-school norms); relies on high-quality, naturally sweet tomatoes (Stanislaus 7/11), enhanced with garlic, oregano, olive oil, salt, and a splash of soy sauce (“umami punch”) [16:27].
  • “We put soy sauce on our pizza… it gives you that nice umami punch.” [17:24]
• Cheese Approach:
  • Cheese first (not sauce-first), using sliced and shredded grande low-moisture mozzarella, sometimes blended with Muenster, Gruyere, or others [18:53].
  • “Cheese is actually my favorite ingredient on the pie. I love cheese. It’s the one food I eat every day…” [18:53]
• Pizza as Universal Joy:
  • “There’s a pizza for everyone. It’s like saying you don’t like ice cream… There’s an inherent deliciousness to pizza that we are almost wired as human beings to find delicious.” [18:44]

5. How to Make New York Style Pizza at Home

Expert Tips from Martin Philip ([24:51 – 38:28])

• Crust Crispness:
  • Crispness depends on:
    1. Low Hydration Dough – too much water makes it harder to get crisp [27:03].
    2. Fermentation – cold fermentation (8-10 hours plus chilling) yields extensible, flavorful dough.
    3. Bake Method – baking steel > baking stone; deck oven effect at home [27:50].
    4. The Recrisp – vital to let cool, then reheat on a hot steel or stone (lower temp) to get the classic slice-shop crunch [28:30].
    5. Infrared Thermometer – “A tool that will boost your pizza making… quality in a way that people don’t quite recognize.” [29:42]
• Toppings:
  • Most vegetables (and many other toppings) need prep: chop, sauté, roast, or wilt to avoid raw/soggy results.
    • “Every vegetable… needs to be given some TLC before it goes on your pizza—chopped, torn, wilted, squeezed…” —Jessica [30:51]
  • Sogginess in NY pizza is always a misstep [32:40].
• Dough Stretching Issues:
  • If dough tears, it likely wasn’t relaxed enough; let it come to room temp, rest, then use gravity to stretch [33:38].
  • “Tempering the dough isn’t something everybody has built into their pizza practice.” —Martin [36:13]
  • Practice is essential; don’t worry if your first tries are misshapen—pizzas should be eaten, not judged [37:32].
  • “There’s no shame in pinning a dough.” —Martin [36:53]

6. Pop Culture & Personal Pizza Opinions

Segment: “Jess Opinions” [38:45]

• Ranch on Pizza:
  • Jessica “cannot stand” pizza with grocery-store ranch dressing—calls it “not an enhancement… a distraction.” [39:31]
  • “I think it’s what you do if your crust isn’t very good… If you have a really good pizza crust…that’s the best part.” [40:54]
  • Other panelists take a live-and-let-live approach: “Love what you love. Your mouth, not mine.” —Martin [41:33]

7. What We’re Baking Next

• David:: Making “Rosa” pizzas—sauce, anchovies, garlic, olive oil, oregano, maybe a little hard cheese, all on a super-thin, Roman-style “tonda” crust [42:59].
• Jessica:: Olive oil cake—easy, riffable, stays moist for days. “A very straightforward, simple cake, but very classy, elegant.” [43:39]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “If it's not spilling over the paper plate... you're at the wrong slice shop.” —Jessica [05:52]

• “A great New York slice is crispy, crunchy and chewy.” —Wylie Dufresne [12:21]

• “We put soy sauce on our pizza… it gives you that nice umami punch.” —Wylie Dufresne [17:24]

• “Cheese is actually my favorite ingredient on the pie. I love cheese. It’s the one food I eat every day…” —Wylie Dufresne [18:53]

• “If you have a really good pizza crust... that, to me, is the best part of good pizza.” —Jessica [41:05]

• “Eat more pizza. Pizza is a practice just like all other aspects of baking. The best way to get better is to make mistakes.” —Martin Philip [37:54]

• “Love what you love, man. Your mouth, not mine.” —Martin Philip [41:33]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• NY Pizza History & Significance: [01:08 – 02:34]
• Signature Traits (Slice, Sauce, Cheese, Crust): [03:15 – 09:59]
• Interview: Wylie Dufresne: [10:15 – 21:30]
• Technical Tips with Martin Philip: [24:51 – 38:28]
• "Jess Opinions" (Ranch on Pizza): [38:45 – 41:58]
• Baking Inspiration (What’s Next): [42:40 – 45:16]

Technical Tips Recap

For Better New York Pizza at Home:

• Use low hydration, yeasted dough—cold ferment for flavor.
• Aim for thin but sturdy crust; rest the dough to allow stretching.
• Bake on a steel for best crisp—use an infrared thermometer.
• Don’t skip the “recrisp” for authentic slice shop crunch.
• Pre-cook or prep toppings, especially vegetables.
• Practice, experiment, and don’t sweat mistakes. Pizza is forgiving.

Closing Thoughts

This episode captures the essential magic of New York pizza—history, culture, nostalgia, and the pleasure of getting lost in pursuit of the perfect slice, whether you’re in a bustling NY street or your own kitchen. The hosts balance technical know-how, personal warmth, and lively debate, ensuring that anyone—novice or pizza obsessive—comes away inspired and armed with practical knowledge. As Martin says: “Eat more pizza. The best way to get better is to make mistakes.” [37:54]

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For recipes and more, check out King Arthur Baking Company’s “Book of Pizza” and follow their YouTube channel for technique videos from Martin Philip.