← Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is sponsored by Brod and Taylor, helping more people bake bread. Gather around the table and share something made by hand. I'll chop. Ok. Refrigerate.
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B
Okay.
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A
From King Arthur Baking Company, this is things bakers Know. I'm Jessica Battalana, King Arthur's staff editor.
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B
And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director. And today we're talking about tortillas.
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A
Tortillas. You know, I think I often share weird stories with you, and today will be no exception.
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B
Oh, great.
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A
Because one of the things that I like to do when I travel is pick up specialty food from whatever destination I'm visiting.
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B
From the airport.
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A
From the airport you show.
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B
Yes. Duty free.
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A
Well, what I also do is that I will, like, pack clothes that I want to throw out.
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B
What?
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A
Like, I'll pack, like, old T shirts, and I'll wear them during the trip, and then I throw them out to make room in my suitcase for something I want to bring back.
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B
Oh, my gosh. Okay.
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A
So I look. I always look very shabby when I'm traveling.
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B
Now I understand why so many people look the way they do at airplanes
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A
and then discard them at the end of the trip.
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B
To make room for.
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A
To make room for some sort of food stuff that I'm bringing back. Like, I went to San Francisco. I wanted to get the special rice from my friend who's a Japanese chef out there. So I packed a bunch of old T shirts, threw them out, brought several gallon bags of rice. But recently, you know, I was in Austin, and when I went in Rome, when in Austin, I was like, I'm gonna get tortillas. Because there's a lot of things you can get in Maine, you know, but great tortillas are not really one of them. And in Austin, it's like, they're so easy to get and so inexpensive. And so I brought back 200 tortillas.
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B
Oh, my. Did you have any clothes in your bag at this point, or you just, like, threw out everything?
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A
And I brought a mixture of corn tortillas, tortillas, flour tortillas, some that were mixed corn and flour, different sizes, different thicknesses.
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B
Wow.
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A
And now I have. You know, I've bragged about my chest freezer before.
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B
Yes.
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A
And I'll continue to brag about that freezer till the day that I die.
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B
Full of tortillas.
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A
It's full of tortillas now.
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B
Oh, gosh, that is great. I mean, so it is true. One of the things I think about most when I think about tortillas is how hard it is to get a good one in New England.
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A
Yes.
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B
You know, and even. Even in New York City. I mean, you were in Texas, which, of course, has an amazing culture for Mexican food and tortillas, you know, Latin American food. I spent a lot of time in Chicago, lived there for 10 years. There's a huge Mexican population there, and there were so many tortillarias in, you know, in the city of Chicago, making fresh masa every day and making tortillas, you grab them warm. I mean, so this is the thing. You would go to the grocery stores, and you probably still can. I haven't lived in Chicago for a few years, but you would grab stacks of tortillas from the grocery store, and you had your pick of so many brands that were freshly made that day, and they were still warm.
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A
Still warm.
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B
I mean, and that is a. That is a gift.
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C
Yeah.
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B
It is a bag of warm tortillas, as you know, because you smuggled them from Texas back to Maine. There are very few things that are as delicious as a fresh tortilla made with good masa.
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A
Yes. And I think, you know, I. I have always loved tortilla. Well, I won't say always, because I grew up in Vermont, so. And it was like, Vermont and the. Now you can get packaged tortillas here. But, you know, they were never great. And it wasn't until I moved to California, to San Francisco, and I was within walking distance of La Palma, which is a. What do they call it? A mexicatescent. And they make both corn and flour tortillas there. And I think that's like, you know, it was sort of like, that was the. I mean, not the light bulb moment exactly, but that was where I started to really appreciate, like, oh, it's not a monolith. Like, there are, like, you know, there's huge difference between corn and flour, and even within that, there are differences with ones made with fresh masa or masa harina, you know, flour tortillas with lard or with, you know, oil. So my. The scales fell from my eyes.
- [04:15]
D
That's beautiful.
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B
That's a beautiful story. Yeah. One of the most interesting tortillas that we have on our site is a red tortilla made with chilies to make it red. I mean, so there is. It's not only corn or wheat, but also, like, what else are you gonna put in that tortilla? And I feel like we've been seeing a trend for a few years now of people doing some really cool stuff with tortillas. You Know, mixing in things to make it beautiful colors, pressing flowers, edible flowers into tortillas. There's so much that's happening with tortillas, but today I think we're gonna keep it pretty basic.
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A
I think first we should go back to the beginning of time. I mean, not really, but we should talk about the origins of tortillas, because they have deep, deep, deep, deep roots.
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B
Yes. And this is particular to corn tortillas, what we're about to talk about. But we're going back to 2000 B.C.
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A
ah, yes.
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B
So the Aztec, Mayan and Mesoamerican peoples, you know, who inhabited what is, you know, now Mexico and Central America. It was a corn culture. You know, corn was sort of a God to be prayed to, but also a crop. It was the thing that sustained them because corn was king, was everything.
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A
I mean, it was these civilizations, you know, around 1000 B.C. that sort of figured out something that kind of like, changed. I mean, I don't think it's overstating to say, like, it changed the course of civilization.
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B
No, what you're about to talk about, I do think is one of the most important things that ever happened to civilization, I think so.
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A
So they discovered that if you took dried, you know, dried on the corn. No, dried on the cob kernels of corn. Yeah. And they cooked them in water that they had mixed some ash from cooking into the water that made the water sort of alkaline. And that alkaline water softened the corn. And so then you were able to like, peel off what's called the pericarp, the outer layer, and access the nutritional powerhouse beneath. So very rich in vitamins, you know, rich in niacin, calcium. And also, once you had the pericarp off and this is like, we're getting to the tortilla part, then you could grind this into something that was like a smooth paste. And then tortillas were born.
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B
The process is now called nixtamalization. And you're right, it's an incredible thing. It made corn so nutritious. I mean, and without it, I think you would just have, like, starchy sugar starch, basically, without any of the nutrients. And so it's not something that could sustain a people for thousands of thousands of years, whereas nixtamalized corn can and did. And so it's a very cool thing. And that same process is happening.
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A
Well, that's it. It hasn't changed that much, which is sort of the amazing part. Like, I mean, of course, the production of tortillas has become more industrial, but the basic you know, process remains the same. Like now, instead of ash from your cooking fire, they're using calcium hydroxide or slaked lime in the water. But otherwise it's. It's still like you cook the corn in this alkaline water, you know, then the pericarp is removed and then it's ground. And obviously, yes, it's automated. It's not done with like, you know, a grinding stone anymore, but still, like, the fundamental of it is the same. So corn tortillas came first.
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B
Yes, well, actually, what came first, and I think what we should be clear about is what you have once you go through that process of nixtamalization and grinding is not a tortilla. You have masa, which is the dough.
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A
Right.
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B
Which you can use to make a bunch of different things. Perhaps the best thing is a tortilla, but a corn tortilla.
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A
Well, perhaps the easiest thing too, if you didn't have, you know, a lot of extra ingredients, if you didn't have a lot of tools, like the idea of making basically like a pancake out of this dough.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And cooking it, you know, on a griddle. Pretty straightforward.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So corn tortillas preceded flour tortillas by like, you know, I don't know, 500 years or so. But then, you know, Spanish colonizers, we all know how this story goes, but the Spanish colonizers arrive to, you know, present day Mexico, Central America, and they see that this entire civilization is built around corn. I mean, and I think it's interesting because we think about the symbolic importance of corn to, you know, the Mayan, Mesoamerican people. I mean, and for the Spanish colonizers, like, they had a similar relationship to wheat. Like, you know, and they sort of believed that, like, you know, well, the body of Christ was not a corn tortilla, Right. Like, it was a piece of bread. And so wheat was really important to those cultures. So they get to Mexico, Central America, and they think, great, we're going to plant wheat. And they did. And in many parts of Mexico and Central America, the wheat crop did great. And then they used their traditional methods of, you know, milled it into flour and made these flower tortillas. And I think it's interesting, like, I always think about convergence on our culinary planet, Right. Like, flour tortillas are very similar to many of the, like, flatbreads that you see, the unleavened flatbreads that you see throughout, you know, Eastern Europe. And so, yeah, they got a foothold in Mexico and it remains that way today. There are parts of Mexico that are still sort of flour tortilla strongholds. And I love a flour tortilla. But I do wanna talk now because I think we've arrived at the moment where it is interesting to talk about the difference between a store bought shelf stable corn or flour tortilla and the homemade or, you know, bakery made. Fresh made. Yeah, different.
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B
I mean, I think, you know, when you make tortillas at home, you understand pretty quickly that they don't last a long time. You know, they're not, they're not a flapper that's meant to last for a few days.
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A
No.
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B
So it's, that's, it's interesting to keep that in mind when you're thinking about, you know, the tortillas that I, I buy these things, you know, I can get food and I buy them. You know, I live in a neighborhood in Manhattan, you know, where there are a lot of tortillas around, but they're just, they just have attitudes and they have things and to preserve it. To preserve them and they're, they are not as fragrant as a, you know, fresh made tortilla is. I mean, one of my favorite smells in the world is opening a bag of masa harina usually. Because I'm usually working with masa harina, not fresh masa, like a pad fresh masa. Or just. See, you can't see me. Some of you can, but I'm like, you know, I'm seeing a tortilla into my face, into my face to smell it. I mean, the smell of, the smell of that fresh corn.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So enticing to me.
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A
They're like pliant too.
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B
Yes. Like, I mean, a fresh one or.
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A
Yes, a fresh corn tortilla. Like, you know, if you get a store bought stack of corn tortillas and you go to like fold one in half, like it's gonna crack unless you like steam it in the microwave or something. Like, it's just, they dry out so quickly.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Whereas like a freshly made one is like supple.
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B
You know, it's like the test of a good tortilla is a fresh tortilla. It's been made. Well, is that you hold it in your hand, you should be able to crumple it up.
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A
Oh, wow.
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B
And then unfurl it and it should remain intact.
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A
Oh, wow. Imagine doing that.
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C
Yeah.
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B
That is a test of a good tortilla.
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A
Of a good tortilla. Freshly made corn tortilla.
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B
And you're right, the ones in the grocery store will crap because they've you know, probably not that fresh. And they're old. They've dried out a little bit.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Another great tip that I was recently reminded of by Lucas Volger, who of course is a friend of the brand. A friend, great food writer. He runs the substack family Friend is to heat the tortillas up in a skillet that's just very lightly slicked with oil. Really helps, you know, I think it helps hydrate the tortilla a little bit. You know, keeps that pan nonstick, those tortillas flipping and frying. It's a very good. Another good way to do it.
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A
Nice.
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B
So it's not impossible. I mean, and like I said, I do this a lot because I feel lazy. I don't want to make my own tortillas. But you have to. Their store bought tortilla is not as good by any means as tortilla. And you have to revive them. You can't just use them right out of the way.
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A
No. We have great tortilla recipes on our site. We have flour tortilla recipes. We have corn tortilla recipes. We have a 50, 50, which are terrific. They're half wheat, half corn.
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B
Yeah. And that's a good entryway. I think if you want to get into corn tortillas, they make it. It's a much easier.
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A
Yes.
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B
Corn tortilla.
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A
Yes.
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B
You know, yes. Yeah.
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A
But so anyway, we'll put all of those recipes in the show notes as part of our agenda to get everyone making homemade tortillas by the end of this episode.
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B
Right, Right.
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A
So go look at the show notes now. Gather your ingredients and then you can get ready while we talk to our guest.
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B
Right. Who is going to help us make good tortillas at home. Patty Yenich is truly one of my favorite people on the planet. She is such an amazing cook and such a great, I mean, just a joyful personality. I just, I love talking to her. And of course, she's a cookbook author too. So we're bringing Patty on. She's done a lot of work with us here at King Arthur and she's going to get all of us in tortilla making shape.
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A
Awesome. I can't wait to hear it.
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D
Patty Yenich is one of the foremost authorities on Mexican food. She's the author of several books, including Treasures of the Mexican Table, Mexican Today and a cookbook that's about to come out this fall, Foods of La Frontera. Go pre order that now. And of course, she's the host and producer of several PBS series, including Patty's Mexican Table in its 15th season, which is amazing. And Panamericana. How'd I do pronouncing that?
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B
Not.
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C
Not too good, but, well, beautiful.
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D
Yeah.
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B
Well, she's. She's also a very sweet person and
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D
a longtime friend of King Arthur. And, Patti, I am so thrilled to have you on the podcast. I love talking to you, and I'm so excited to talk about tortillas.
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C
Oh, thank you so much, David. And I love how you said pan Americana.
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D
We wanted to bring you on to talk about tortillas. I mean, to me, I don't know if you agree, but it is, in my opinion, the most elemental and essential of foods, of Mexican food, but of lots of cuisines south and Central America. And I wanted to start by asking you if you remember by any chance, making your first tortilla or if you have any memories, early memories of tortillas.
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C
Yes, of course. You know, growing up in Mexico City, having tortillarias around was just like having a light. You know, having a light around. Every neighborhood has its not one, but few tortillarias. And we would go every week and get fresh. It was corn tortillas, like freshly made corn tortillas. And the biggest treat, David, was when you went there and they were coming out hot of the giant machine, you would ask for a couple of dozens, and then they would give you an extra one. And they had there in the counter. And that was the case in every tortillaria. They had salt in a bag and so you could make a taquito de nada, which translates to a taco of nothing or a nothing taco, which is in my mind, you know, after considering a ripe avocado slice inside of a corn tortilla. The utmost delicious thing is just fresh corn tortilla, earthy, nutty, super soft, malleable with just a sprinkle of salt. And if they happen to have a little stick of butter, then that was like, oh, my gosh. You know, the most amazing thing.
- [16:07]
D
You're bringing up so many things about the tortilla that I want to talk about. So let's pretend we're talking to a bunch of home cooks and they are getting ready to make tortillas for the first time. You've done a lot of work teaching people how to make tortillas. You developed the tortilla recipe on our site, which we're so grateful for, and it's a great recipe. I've used it so many times. What would you say? What advice would you give to the home cook who is just starting I
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C
would say, well, first of all, I'm so happy that more people want to try and make their own corn tortillas. And I would say a few things are essential. Like, the first thing is give yourself the time. It's not something that you're going to make like a sandwich. Like, you have to reserve a block of time to be relaxed. Like, you can start making your corn tortillas at 6:15 if you want to be serving dinner at 6:30. So I would say give yourself the time. Get the tools. Like, get a really good tortilla press. And a really good tortilla press isn't an expensive one at all. It has to be heavy. It just has to flatten the masa. Like, nothing complicated there. But I would steer away from the fancy big, square tortilla presses because they're more cumbersome to use. I like just the basic steel or heavy aluminum round tortilla presses. And it's funny because most of the good tortilla presses are a little bit uneven. You have to jiggle them a little bit when you use them, but that's just part of the process. And then to press the tortillas, you need plastic. And some people forget about that and will press the masa in the tortilla press. And then the masa sticks.
- [18:06]
D
Disaster.
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C
You need to remember. And people forget you need plastic on both sides. So you open up the tortilla press, you layer a sheet of plastic. And I like using the plastic from the plastic bags from the grocery store, from the vegetable aisles. That very thin plastic is the best. And just cut circles. And you want to cut the circle larger than the base of the tortilla press so that you're not messing with it too much. And then you.
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D
I want to pause you right there because I love that tip about using the plastic bag from the grocery store. And you would not recommend using plastic wrap, right? Like something like that?
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C
No, no, no. Because plastic wrap is way too thin and it crumbles and it's gonna mark all those wrinkles in the masa. So the produce bags are the best in between the plastic wrap and, say, a Ziploc bag, which a Ziploc bag is. I would much rather go for a Ziploc bag than plastic wrap. Mix your masarina with water. I do add a pinch of salt. I never add fat to my masa or masarina unless if I'm making masa dumplings or sopes or gorditas. But for corn tortillas, you don't need to add any fat. At all. And you wanna make sure that you have a pan that's been preheating and you know, over medium low heat for at least 10 minutes, because you want that surface to be very hot and ready for the tortilla. If it's not hot enough, when you lay down the tortilla, the tortilla will stick. Think of pancakes or crepes. It'll stick. And then you have to wait until it creates a crust to flip it. And you don't want it to be too hot or it will burn the tortilla and not cook it from within. And I recommend for people that are starting that they use a very affordable nonstick because that's just the easiest thing to start with. Once you have made tortillas a few times, you can go to a comal that's not nonstick or a cast iron pan. I have a lot of friends that use cast iron pans and they love it. And then you have to wait for them masa. Once you flatten it out into a tortilla. And it has to be very thin to be a Mexican tortilla. It has to be very thin. If it's thicker, it's good for a pupusa, which is not Mexican. I mean, it's delicious, but not for tacos. And then you just have to have patience. It's like when you're learning to make crepes. The first, the second one, the third one are probably not gonna be your best ones, but you just have to. You going at it.
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B
Yeah.
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D
So can I. There are two points over this process where I personally get tripped up sometimes, especially if I haven't done it in a while. So I want to know if you have any tips for me. One is the hydration of the dough. It's important you get that right. But we know that we can give people a recipe and people can weigh with grams, but depending on what season it is, depending what your kitchen's like, depending on what type of masa you're using it, that, you know, these elements change. You know, how the dough is going to feel. What should I be looking for in the masa? Like, how sticky should it be?
- [21:48]
C
This is such a great question, and it has a temperamental, temperamental answer. Because it really depends on the weather, not only of where you live, say if you're in Colorado or you're in Florida, how much humidity there is, the altitude, because that will also, you know, affect the heat and how long you're cooking the tortilla. So what you're. This is Very easy. And I know people think it's very complicated, but this is what you're looking for. You're looking for a masa that is soft as fresh. Play Doh. It's, you know, play doh when you first take it out of the little container, after you've used play Doh a few times and you forgot to put the lid on, then it starts getting crackly, and you can play with it as well. And the best test to know if the. And you have to really knead the dough, even though it's just flour and water. And I like to add, you know, hot or lukewarm water. Even though it's just mixing that, I do like to add a pinch of salt. You have to let the masa hydrate for a little while, for a few minutes. You can't just immediately start making the tortillas because the masa will continue transforming. That is, the masa arena will continue absorbing the water and becoming a thing. You know, the masa in the water will become its own thing, not separate units. So you have to give that time. But when you make your balls of dough, and I like to divide the masa from the get go, because you're not gonna like me saying this, but I don't like to weigh my masa. My balls of masa, I just take.
- [23:36]
B
That's heresy on this podcast. But yes, okay.
- [23:40]
C
And I honestly, I don't mind if some tortillas are a little bigger than others. I really don't mind. But what you need is a final texture. And the proof is when you have your ball of masa and you press it in the tortilliro or the tortilla press, there should be no cracks on the edges. That's how you know that the masa is moist and wet enough.
- [24:08]
D
If there are cracks, it's too dry.
- [24:10]
C
Yes.
- [24:11]
D
And then can it be saved? Would you put a little more water?
- [24:15]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [24:16]
C
You just get the masa, gather the masa, throw it back in the bowl. In the bowl where you have the masa and not more water, and knead it again. Or you could even do it to just that bowl of masa. It's always, always salvageable until you cook it. The most important thing to make really good corn tortillas is to cut yourself slack. Leave yourself time in the kitchen and to cut yourself slack and be kind and loving and forgiving to yourself and build that determination and confidence. So it doesn't matter. You're just gonna get better with time.
- [24:56]
D
Before we end our conversation, I wanted to talk about some of the regional styles of tortillas in Mexico. You've been doing a lot of traveling, you know, for your TV show. It sounds like your new book is about, like, regional food. Is that right? You know La Frontera?
- [25:13]
C
Yes, yes, yes. My next cookbook is called Foods of La Frontera. It's recipes and no taste frontiers from both sides of the border. And it's, you know, the southern US States and the northern Mexican states. And I realized, David, that we Mexicans know so little about norteno cuisine and culture. And one of their pillars is the flour tortilla. And in those northern Mexican states, they use Sonoran wheat, which is extraordinary. But of course, you can just find any goat wheat to make flour tortillas. But the flour tortillas are so divine. They're like thin little biscuits or pancakes. I mean, they're just buttery, they're flaky. They're all kinds. They're like super thin, big ones for burritos. They're normal sized ones for tacos. There are some that are made on special occasions that are used where butter is used for the fat. There's some places in the border where they use beef lard or tallow and they use the beef cracklings. There's some parts where they use pork lard. There's some parts where they use specific kinds of vegetable shortening. There's even some flour tortillas that are called gorditas de arena, not gorditas de mais, like gorditas de arena, which are just chubbier flour tortillas that are made with butter and evaporated milk. And I can't even describe the taste.
- [26:51]
D
And what are those used for? Are they eaten on their own or are they filled?
- [26:54]
C
Yeah, so those are typically used for filling them with refried beans and melted cheese.
- [27:02]
B
Oh, my God.
- [27:04]
C
And no, they're extraordinary. They're like little empanadas. They're such a luxury. You know, the more I travel and the more I do what I do, the more. Just hoping for more years, David, because I realize I know so little. You know, I used to think, oh, I know so much. I'm from Mexico. And, you know, no, in Mexico, corn tortillas are better than flour tortillas. And then I traveled to, like, half of Mexico and realized that the rule there is really good flour tortillas and that they're incredible. So I think there's so much to learn.
- [27:38]
D
I mean, I could talk to you for years, honestly, about, you know, listening to you talk about this stuff. Because it just is all so fascinating. And I just think Mexican cuisine is the richest cuisine. I'm gonna go ahead and say, and for me, I just think there's so much to explore and so much delicious, so many delicious things, including all the tortillas. It's so wonderful to talk to you. I wish I could talk to you forever. But our editors are gonna kill us.
- [28:05]
C
But we can get to do this again anytime.
- [28:14]
E
Hey, it's Francis Lamb, host of the Splendid Table podcast. Every week on our show, we celebrate the intersection of food and life. And this month, we're releasing a new series called Culinary Masters. It highlights some of the most iconic people in the food world. And we're revisiting conversations with people who have fundamentally changed how many of us cook and think about food. People like Jacques Pepin, Claudia Rodin, and Tony Bourdain, to name a few. You can listen to this special series now. Just search for the Splendid Table in your podcast app.
- [28:47]
A
This episode is brought to you by Brod and Taylor. Brod and Taylor is an independent family owned company that builds tools for all bread bakers at every level to transform complex baking challenges into simple pleasures.
- [29:00]
D
I love Brod and Taylor. I mean, they are so passionate about bread and baking. When I talk to those folks, it really feels like I'm talking to someone at King Arthur too. There's that synergy there because we only
- [29:10]
B
have one thing on our minds. It's baking. Baking, baking.
- [29:14]
A
I love their tools. They really, truly are an asset for every home baker. And you and I both have quite a few of them in our own kitchens. You know, my favorite I think is the countertop proof. I don't know you're into the baking steel, but they have a lot of great tools.
- [29:30]
B
I love the baking. Yeah.
- [29:31]
A
Whether you're a first time baker or you're like in deep like us, there's something for you@broadandtaylor.com that's B R O D A N d t a Y-L-O-R.com.
- [29:43]
B
this episode is brought to you by the King Arthur Baking app. You thought it was enough that we had a website and books and YouTube
- [29:52]
D
and a blog and a podcast.
- [29:54]
B
Yeah. No. Now we have our very own app and you can easily find it on Apple, Google, wherever you get your apps, you get all of our recipes there. And there's a handy bake feature that keeps your phone from falling asleep.
- [30:06]
A
I love that.
- [30:07]
B
While you follow all of our recipes, follow the recipe day and night.
- [30:11]
D
Right.
- [30:13]
B
There's also timers on the app, you can make as many timers as you want, which is nice. And you can easily save all your favorite recipes to your King Arthur recipe box. So download that app. It's free.
- [30:24]
A
It's free.
- [30:24]
B
It means what else is free in this world?
- [30:26]
A
We're giving you the keys to the kingdom.
- [30:28]
B
Right? It's time for our next segment. Ask the Bakers for Ask the Bakers. We want to hear from you if you have a baking question for us. And who better to ask, really. Head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message. We may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast.
- [30:49]
A
You know, people are always asking, asking me questions ad hoc, you know, texting me baking questions. And I'm like, no.
- [30:57]
B
Yeah.
- [30:58]
A
Kingarthurbaking.com but if you have a baking question that really can't wait, and you
- [31:04]
B
don't have my can't wait three months
- [31:06]
A
for you can't wait three months to have answered, and you don't have my personal cell phone number, then you can reach out to our baker's hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com that's kingarthurbaking.com Bakers Hotline. Or call us. 855-371-2253. That's 2253, as in bake. Let's hear our questions.
- [31:32]
F
Hi, this is sue calling from North Carolina. My question is, I want to make tortillas, but what do I do if I don't have a tortilla press?
- [31:43]
A
Well, first of all, I'm glad that our tortilla messaging is getting through to this caller. She really wants to make tortillas at home.
- [31:48]
B
Yeah. And we haven't talked about tortilla presses yet. And actually, it's an important thing to talk about because there is a wide range of them out there in the market. And I have fallen prey to the cheap tortilla press, which is light.
- [32:03]
A
Oh, no, I don't have a plastic one. I have a metal one. I didn't know they made plastic ones.
- [32:07]
B
It's, you know, it's not great, you know, to get a light one to get a cheat. You don't want to. I don't think you need to buy an expensive tortilla press, but you want to get one with some heft to
- [32:15]
A
it, first of all.
- [32:16]
B
But assuming that you want to make tortillas now and you don't have a tortilla,
- [32:22]
A
and I will say a Tortilla press is sort of a single use appliance. And sometimes you just like, can't, you know, can't make the space for a single. Or you're, you know, you're an occasional tortilla maker, and so you perhaps haven't leveled up to justifying the purchase of a tortilla press. But that's okay. I mean, if you want. And obviously this, this caller wants to make corn tortillas because if they wanted to make flour tortillas, they would just see a rolling pin. But. But you have a hack for.
- [32:48]
B
Yeah. If you're just getting into it, you don't want to buy a tortilla press. Yeah. You got to get those sheets of plastic. Those are non negotiable.
- [32:55]
A
Yes.
- [32:56]
B
But I would, you know, set a piece of plastic on the countertop, put your ball of masa on top, plastic on top of that. And then I would use the heaviest skillet you have. So I would use a cast iron skillet, and I would not slam it down. I would, you know, you press gently. And this is something else. We haven't talked about that. One of the other nuances of making tortillas at home is, is the pressure. Well, we did talk about that a little bit. You know, like, if you press it too much or you, you know, you press too much with this cast iron skillet, you're gonna get something way too thin.
- [33:26]
A
Yeah.
- [33:26]
B
Way too stuck to the pan. And if you don't do it enough, it'll be too thick. So anyway, you know, experiment with that. But you can get a pretty nice even press with a cast iron skillet.
- [33:38]
A
With a large skillet.
- [33:38]
B
Yeah.
- [33:39]
A
Let's go to our next question.
- [33:40]
F
How do I get my tortillas to puff?
- [33:43]
B
Practice.
- [33:44]
A
Practice.
- [33:44]
B
Yeah.
- [33:45]
A
Practice makes better. And again, I think this is a question really for, I mean, flour tortillas, I don't think you have to work so hard to puff. Like, they, they just kind of do corn tortillas, though. And it's interesting, like, people think about a puffing corn tortilla as a hallmark of a good tortilla.
- [34:00]
B
Yeah, right. I think, and I think it is technically, I mean, I mean, you know, when you see people who really know how to make tortillas or they've got a restaurant or a tortilla area, like, I mean, those things are puffing and they're. It's a beautiful thing to watch. You know, they, they do it and it seems so easy, and it's not. Sometimes your tortilla does not puff because
- [34:17]
A
they have no leavener in them.
- [34:18]
B
They have no leavener.
- [34:19]
A
So it's technique and temperature and.
- [34:21]
B
Yeah. And it's, it's, you know, steam. So it is your hydration. Right. You know, in your dough. It's all sorts of factors. One thing you can do if your tortilla is cooking and it's not puffing and you really want it to puff and this is good. I, I do this all the time. You know, I always want to give it a chance.
- [34:36]
C
Right.
- [34:37]
B
Take a spatula and gently press on the tortilla. Press it down into the hot skillet. Maybe flip it, you know, do that again, that pressing motion, which works with a lot of things.
- [34:49]
A
A lot of flatbreads.
- [34:49]
B
Yeah, A lot of flatbreads does encourage puffing. And sometimes that, that works. You get a beautiful puff then. And then it settles down. You don't have a lot of time when you're making tortillas.
- [35:00]
A
They don't cook them because you're griddling them. Pretty high heat.
- [35:03]
B
Yeah. Actually it's like 90 seconds. You know, it's about the average time. And so I wouldn't keep your tortilla on the skillet and pressing it to try to get it to pop. Yeah.
- [35:14]
A
Because then it'll dry out. Yeah.
- [35:15]
B
Just move on.
- [35:16]
A
Yeah. I mean, and the nice thing is even a non puffed corn tortilla, still very delicious.
- [35:22]
B
Yes.
- [35:23]
A
Like, it might not be like, you know, patty, patty style. You know, it might not be like restaurant style, but it'll eat. As we used to say growing up. It'll eat.
- [35:33]
B
Yeah.
- [35:33]
A
So I think. Yeah, just, you're right. Just it's getting the reps in. And, you know, I think like every time you do something like this, like, you learn a little bit about like, oh, maybe I should have added a little bit more water or. And you know, there's going to be variability between fresh masa and, you know, reconstituted masa harina. So, you know, I wish there was a magic, you know, a magic tip, but it is really practice.
- [35:57]
B
Yeah, it's practice and not something to worry about.
- [36:02]
A
I think we have one more tortilla question.
- [36:09]
F
Hi, my name's Lauren. I'm calling in from Virginia. My question is I have a tortilla recipe that calls for lard and I'm wondering, do I need lard or can I use something else? And how does your choice of fat make a difference in flour tortillas? Thanks.
- [36:27]
A
You do not need to use lard. I mean, it's really just a question of flavor. And some people Find the flavor of lard to be off putting, you know, or if you're a vegetarian and you just don't want to use lard, that's fine. Also, I think it is a sad fact that a lot of, like the commodity lard that you get, like the blocks of, you know, it's like sold in a brick, like butter is not very delicious anyway, so you can use. We. When we were working on the Big Book of Bread, we tried lots of different fats, knowing that some people wouldn't be able to get lard or wouldn't want to use lard for whatever reason. And we experimented with butter in tortillas. We experimented with coconut oil, you know, like the solid coconut oil. We experimented with, like other neutral oils and they all work. So that's like, functionally there's really no difference. So it's really just a question of flavor. So you can definitely sub something else out and, you know, it'll be great. I do like lard and like, if you can get good lard, a lard tortilla I think is delicious. But, you know, it's nice to know that you can sub something else and it'll be just fine. And you substitute the same amount by, you know, weight or volume.
- [37:47]
B
Yeah.
- [37:47]
A
Should be good to go. Anyway, there.
- [37:50]
B
Fat episode coming soon.
- [37:51]
A
Oh, we should do a fat episode. Well, now I've told one of my best fat stories. I'll come up with another one.
- [37:57]
B
Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full throated opinions are in her head. A segment we lovingly call Jess Opinions. I got a preview of what this Jess opinion is, but I didn't hear the whole thing. And I'm very excited, Jessica, for your tortilla Jess opinion.
- [38:15]
A
Yeah. So this is. I mean, I'm zigging a little bit here because it's about burritos.
- [38:19]
B
Okay.
- [38:20]
A
Which are, of course related to tortillas, you know.
- [38:22]
B
Yeah. You can't have a burrito without one.
- [38:25]
A
No, you can't. And I was.
- [38:26]
B
I mean, lettuce does not.
- [38:28]
A
Sorry, it's not a wrap. I was thinking about my. I. I mean, I love a burrito until I get to, like, the last inch of the burrito.
- [38:40]
B
Okay.
- [38:41]
A
AKA the burrito stump.
- [38:43]
B
Okay. Yeah.
- [38:44]
A
You know, where all the tortilla.
- [38:45]
B
You've already eaten one of the stumps.
- [38:47]
A
Yeah.
- [38:48]
B
Because you've.
- [38:49]
A
Yeah.
- [38:49]
B
Or do you start your burritos in
- [38:50]
A
the middle of here of corn?
- [38:54]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [38:55]
A
Can you imagine when you get to the bottom and it's sort of compressed by your hand and the weight of the burrito ingredients, and you have that sort of, like, kind of dense layer upon layer of tortilla and, you know, tortilla butt stump, basically, you get to the stump. Revolting. I do not like a burrito stump at all.
- [39:20]
B
Okay.
- [39:21]
A
Like, I'll stop eating it there.
- [39:24]
B
Yes.
- [39:24]
A
But our producer was. I don't know. Our producer was, like, horrified. She said that was her favorite part of the burrito. I just think it's too much tortilla, like, I like to have.
- [39:36]
B
Well, it's a lot of tortilla. It's a lot of naked tortilla.
- [39:38]
A
It's so much naked, but also sort of slimy, a little bit.
- [39:43]
B
Oh, God, you're really selling it.
- [39:44]
A
I know. But I will say there is a way to save the stuff. My Yankee thrift coming to bear again is like, I will take the stump home, wrap it up.
- [39:55]
B
Okay, this is where you're losing me.
- [39:57]
A
Take it home, refrigerate it, and then the next morning, I'll chop up the stump.
- [40:02]
B
Okay.
- [40:04]
A
The face you're making right now.
- [40:07]
B
Well, just to be clear, we're talking about, like, about an inch.
- [40:10]
A
About an inch.
- [40:12]
B
Entire inch.
- [40:12]
A
Yeah, I think so.
- [40:14]
B
We're talking about 2 grams of tortilla here. Okay. Yes. You've taken it home. You've carried it home carefully. This is.
- [40:21]
A
I know.
- [40:22]
B
You're like a wounded bird, and you put it in your fridge.
- [40:24]
A
In my fridge. I know you're germ adverse, too, so this is probably doubly horrifying for you. But then I take it out of the fridge, chop it.
- [40:32]
B
Okay.
- [40:32]
A
Fry it up in a little oil so those tortilla bits start to crisp. And then I beat some eggs and I pour them on top, and I make what we call stump eggs.
- [40:46]
B
Wow.
- [40:46]
A
Yeah.
- [40:47]
B
I mean, you have a family of stumps, or is it just one stump? Have you all gone to get, like, burritos or what?
- [40:53]
A
I think the rest of my family will eat the stump.
- [40:59]
B
Please tell me this is in your cookbook. Stumpage.
- [41:01]
A
I should put this in my cookbook. Sadly, no. But that's a freebie. This is a bonus recipe. Bonus recipe.
- [41:07]
D
There you go.
- [41:08]
B
We'll put it in the substack, share something.
- [41:11]
A
The substack. It shares something with. I don't know, like, maybe it's, like, a relative of, like, migas. Right.
- [41:19]
B
Like, well, I was thinking, right. There's a lot of wonderful things you can do with tortillas and eggs. Yeah.
- [41:24]
A
And you're like, that's not one of them.
- [41:27]
B
Adding to the. I want to say the pantheon. Is that the right word?
- [41:30]
A
Yeah, the pantheon of egg and tortilla things. Well, so, you know, I don't know. This could be a minority opinion about the stump, but yeah, I think this
- [41:40]
B
is less about your opinion and more about.
- [41:42]
A
I just wanted to give people this free idea.
- [41:45]
B
Yeah. Your commitment to thrift is admirable. You know what?
- [41:48]
A
Give it a shot.
- [41:49]
B
I'm sitting here and like, I'm confused and I'm like, I'm like worried about you and like, I'm all these. But then I'm like sitting here realizing, you know, like, in my household, there's a phrase that my husband uses called the David piece, which like these little pieces that I keep on of everything that I wouldn't use it. And it's very stumpling.
- [42:04]
A
I like how you're actually.
- [42:05]
B
So I actually think that. I actually think that actually am really into this. Yeah.
- [42:11]
A
It took you a long time to
- [42:12]
B
reveal this David piece, but I'm gonna feigning shock.
- [42:17]
A
What are you gonna. What are you gonna use any of your David pieces in your bakes this week? What are you. What are you gonna bake?
- [42:22]
B
Well, I might. All this talk about corn tortillas and masa reminded me that one of my favorite things to do with masa is not a tortilla, but tortilla esque, which is a masa harina pancake, which we have a great recipe for were on the site. It's a mix of AP flour, you know, wheat flour and maserina. So flavorful. And I just, I love pancakes. And so this is like another one to add to the mix. So I will be making mozzarena pancakes and yeah, I'm going to be chopping up tortilla stumps and putting them in there. Why not? You can do anything.
- [42:58]
A
Do you do them? You eat them like with a sweet topping?
- [43:01]
B
Like, you know what? I actually really like a pancake just with butter. Is that weird? And I kind of just eat them standing.
- [43:12]
A
Yeah.
- [43:13]
B
And I usually make because I'm making the batch, you know, and then by the time like they're done, like I've already eaten like three pancakes and I put the rest in my freezer and I kind of toast them as I eat. You know, this is not the first time this season that I've talked about pancakes.
- [43:27]
A
No.
- [43:27]
B
You know, so I really like a pancake and I like it as like a quick thing I can toast. Sometimes I'll dip in a maple syrup. I don't usually do a savory, though.
- [43:35]
A
No, it would be good with, like, a swipe of blueberry jam on it, though, because I think corn, like masa and blueberries. We have a coffee cake on our site that combines masa and blueberries.
- [43:45]
B
Oh, yeah? Yeah. Actually, the recipe on that I'm talking about does include a blueberry sauce.
- [43:50]
A
Oh, yeah, that sounds nice.
- [43:52]
B
Yeah.
- [43:53]
A
I'm gonna do. I'm gonna make our lemon tiramisu. Oh. Which it has. I've been. I've been. I've been marketed to by King Arthur, and it's working because I have been seeing this lemon tiramisu, and it just seems like. I mean, we. We've been talking a lot about what you do in this shoulder season. I mean. Okay, Californians, if we have any California listeners, this is not for you. Like, you're already eating strawberries and you can keep quiet about it.
- [44:18]
B
Yeah, we're in full stick season, but
- [44:20]
A
we're in stick season. We're like, it's no. There's no rhubarb.
- [44:23]
B
You're like, what are we gonna do? Is this stick season or is this mud season?
- [44:25]
A
I mean, it's like, just terrible is what it is.
- [44:28]
B
It's 60s, whatever.
- [44:29]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's still bleak. It's still winter. There's still no fresh stuff. But the lemon tiramisu gives you, like, you know, a sort of, like, suggestion of brighter days. So it substitutes limoncello, where you would use, you know, like for the. Instead of an espresso liqueur. It still has the mascarpone layer. It still has lady fingers. And then there's lemon curd in there. It uses a recipe for lemon curd that's made in the microwave, which is a genius recipe, like, on its own to just have around. But that looks really delicious and pretty, and I think it might just get me through these next few weeks. So I'm gonna try it out.
- [45:09]
B
Call me.
- [45:10]
A
Come over. Come over and have tiramisu. Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. We're gonna be back next week. We're talking about croissant.
- [45:18]
B
Oh, that's gonna be a bad one for me and my pronunciation. Oh, no.
- [45:23]
A
I know. I feel like people. Croissants. Croissan'. Wich. People want to know how to unlock croissants at home. And we're going to help them.
- [45:32]
B
They sure do.
- [45:32]
A
Yeah.
- [45:33]
B
Yeah. Something I've never done. So I will not be very much helpful for next week.
- [45:39]
A
But as always, we appreciate the listeners listening. We appreciate the callers calling. Keep it up.
- [45:45]
B
Yep. Remember to please give us a Like give us a subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts so you know when the next episode drops.
- [45:57]
A
Yep. And leave us a review while you're there. Share the episode with a friend. Tell your friends about us. We want to hear from you and
- [46:06]
B
in the meantime, don't forget Follow the recipe.
- [46:09]
A
Follow the recipe.
- [46:10]
D
Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive
- [46:12]
A
produced by me, David Tumorkin and me Jessica Battalano.
- [46:16]
D
Rossi Anastopoulo is our Senior producer, Chad
- [46:18]
B
Chanay is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagal.
- [46:24]
A
Thanks again to Patty Hinich for appearing on today's episode. You can learn more about her and her work@pattyhinich.com.
- [46:32]
B
things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.