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Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
The Bagel Boom, featuring Carlos Perez of Boil & Bake
00:47:14
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A
This episode is sponsored by Brod and Taylor, helping more people bake bread. Gather around the table and share something made by hand.
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B
You grew up in a cave in the woods.
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A
I grew up in a cave in the woods. And you weren't like.
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B
Now,
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A
from King Arthur Baking Company, this is things bakers know. I'm Jessica Batalana, King Arthur's staff editor.
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B
And I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director. And today we're talking about bagels.
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A
Oh, God, I've been dreading this episode. Cause I just feel like there's no way we're not gonna get in hot water here.
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B
I don't care. I'm ready. I feel if there's one thing I feel secure in, it's my opinions about bagels.
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A
And, you know, here's a little twist of the Turn, as my 12 year old likes to say, twist of the turn. I like that twist of the turn because this episode, you're the one with all the big opinions because you said,
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B
I have some opinions.
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A
If memory serves, you said on video, we could go to the tape that New York bagels are. I think the word you used was trash. Yep.
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B
And that video got around. You know, you record these things and you think, doesn't matter what I say, no one's gonna see this.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
Turns out when you say New York bagels are trash, people see it, wake up, and they pay attention. All of a sudden, people listen to me. I don't. You know, I think what I meant by that statement is that there's are a lot of subpar bagels in New York. And that's probably just because there are a lot of bagels in New York. I mean, you can get a bagel anywhere.
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A
I mean, there are a lot of subpar bagels everywhere, and New York is no exception. And I think people think, you know, bagels are associated with New York. Right. The same way, like you go to Paris and you're like the baguettes. And then there's like some absolute garbage grocery store baguettes too. Like.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, nobody is spared from mediocrity.
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B
Right. There is no Shangri La.
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A
There is no Shangri La.
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B
It doesn't exist.
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A
But let's. I want you just to. I want you to unpack the New York bagels are trash statement just a little bit for our listeners.
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B
Sure. Let me just clarify. There are great bagels in New York, and I feel truly blessed to live across. Yeah. Here I am backtracking. I'm a flip flopper. I Live across the street from a great bagel shop in New York. I mean, so there's some great bagels, but I do feel distress over the state of the bagel. The bagel has gotten too big.
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A
Yes.
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C
Too.
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B
Slow down on that.
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A
Yes.
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B
You know, and a lot of the character that defines the bagel, which I think we're gonna get into in this episode, has been lost over the years. That said, there's a huge movement in this country of bringing back great bagels, and we talk so often about the evolution of baked goods on this podcast. I feel like that's really, in a lot of ways, what our podcast is about. Like, where. Where is baking now and where. As opposed to where it has been.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And bagels are a great example of that because they started one place, they went a lot of other places. I feel like they're coming back, but they're also doing new things that I support as opposed to the new things that I don't support, which are bagels that are about the size of my head.
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A
Yeah. Truth. I mean, and I think we can't. We can't get into this episode without acknowledging at least, like, that there is some, I guess we'll say, regional friction around the conversation around bagels. Like, it is one of those foods where people think, like, you can only have a true X if it's from X.
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B
Exactly.
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A
And I don't. I mean, we're gonna talk more about that in this episode, but I think, like, there is a lot of debate about, are New York bagels better than bagels in Los Angeles? Are New York bagels better than bagels in Montreal? You know, there is, like, people have their allegiance, shall we say?
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B
Yeah.
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A
And there are some baked goods. Not all of them. Like, I think about, like, I don't know, I think about our cheesecake episodes, say, and it's not like people are, like, the only true. Well, I don't know. Maybe they are.
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B
Are they New York stock cheesecake is.
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A
New York just thinks it's the center
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B
of the universe a little bit. Yeah. But it's true. I mean, and I think that is what I was responding to. It's. People have this idea that, you know, if you're in New York, that the bagels there should be great. And it's just. It's just not true. I mean, you have to go to a good bagel place anyway. And not just any bagel in New York. Montreal definitely has a great, you know, style of bagel.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And you mentioned la, which is a real newcomer in the bagel space.
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C
Really.
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B
And you know, when the headlines came out a couple years ago that the best New York bagels are not in New York, they're in la, you know, I was like, that's clickbait. I'm not doing that. I don't believe that.
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D
Yeah.
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B
But I don't know.
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A
Today
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B
I've been convinced. I think there's some really exciting stuff happening in California and in the south and in the Midwest. I mean, everywhere in this country there is a lot of exciting big old innovation happening.
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A
Yeah. And it's not like you need. There's always the, like, you need New York water to make New York pizza, you know, and I like, you know, I don't buy it. Like, I think it's. You can be a regional loyalist all you want, but I don't think it's true that you can only get a good bagel in New York. Sorry, I'm just going to say it, but I will say, how many minutes
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B
now have we spent slamming New York bagels?
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A
But New York is the home of bagels in America.
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B
Yes, absolutely. Bagels originated in Eastern Europe and like so many other baked goods, like pizza and so many, so many. So much of the stuff we talk about, cheesecake. Right. It was immigration that brought it to the States. And Polish bakers in particular brought the bagel to New York City in the late 19th and 20th centuries. And it was a thriving industry. I mean, the Lower east side was full of bagels and bialis, which were two separate things. Notably.
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A
Yes. And there was unions. Right. These bakers were part of a union. Which is pretty incredible.
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B
Right. Because there were so many shops. I mean, there were so many bagels. 70 shops in the Lower east side alone. Wow, that's crazy.
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A
Know a very big area.
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B
And there were unions and there were rules about how bagels could be produced. You know, hand rolled, you know, hand shaped, boiled, baked in wood fired ovens, often on bagel boards, planks of wood that you could use to flip the bagels over. And some of them. And a lot of bagels are made that way today.
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A
And they were not rainbow bagels at the time.
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B
You know, fun fact. They were. And they were. The original bagels were rainbow bagel. Yeah.
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A
Just so it finally came out.
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B
Strawberry, blueberry.
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A
I mean, and the process that you're describing is still really, again, like, automated. Like we were talking about our donut episode. Like, you know, not all steps of the process are now done by hand, but the steps are still more or less the same. Like you make the dough, you shape the dough. You boil them, you bake them. Like that is codified bagel process. There are nuances in there. We're going to talk about that, but that's basically, you know, the way that it goes.
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B
And I would argue also that I think there are more bagels being hand rolled and hand shaped today than donuts being hand shaped. Of course, I'm talking about smaller bagel shops, you know, I mean, you know, the lenders bagels or whatever, you know, I'm sure those are machine.
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A
I'm so glad you brought up Lenders Bagels, actually, because the lender B.A. i didn't have. I mean, I'm always talking about things that I did not have until, like, later in life because I grew up in a place like it's sort of.
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B
You grew up in a cave in the woods?
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A
I grew up in a cave in the woods.
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B
And you were like, now.
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A
I don't know if anyone's going to remember that reference, but I do. Jodie Foster, if you want to be a guest on the podcast, we'd love to have you, but we're the only
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B
two people who remember. You're moving now. I am.
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A
I didn't have a. I mean, bagels were not a thing. Like there was like the first bagel chain in Vermont, I remember was a Bruggers bagels that opened near Berlin, like when I was in high school. I mean, it's sort of like crazy to think about now, but I do remember my aunt used to get sleeves of frozen Lenders bagels. She lived in Boston. And that was the first time that I had had a bagel was at her house. Frozen onion Lenders bagel. I mean, it was thawed, toasted, but. And I. I mean, I thought it was great. Like, I thought they were delicious. And. And Lenders is largely, you know, responsible for like the spread of bagels because Lenders was a bakery in New York City and they sort of figured out, like, hey, if we freeze these things, like, we can start distributing them like far outside of New York. So they developed the technology to freeze bagels. I don't know which is putting them in the freezer. I don't know if they're supposed to be on that. But then distribution. So like people in small town Vermont could have, you know, a bagel experience for the first time.
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B
Yeah, a bagel experience.
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A
A bagel experience.
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B
A very specific bagel experience. And I think there's, you know, probably something great about, you know, exposing people to bagels. And it's probably had a lot to do with where we are now with bagels. But a lender's bagel is not gonna be my choice for a bagel experience.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, given a choice.
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A
Yes. It's also interesting to think about, like, how, like, how much time went by before bagels became chainified. Like a really. I mean, when you think about the big chains, like the burgers bagels I was talking about, like, it didn't open its first store till 1983, which is pretty late. Like, when you think about, like, bagels were In New York 100 and, you know, whatever, 100 and some odd years before that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then Einstein Brothers. Like, that didn't open until 1995, you know, when I was a senior in high school. So it's like, you know, now I think you can't, like, swing a dead cat without seeing, you know, hitting a bagel as exclusive.
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B
I'm always saying that. Yeah. So where are you right now in your life in terms of bagels? Do you. It's your favorite bagel lender style, or are you more artisan wood fired?
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A
Well, you know, I agree with you on one thing and one thing only. Yeah, I. I like a smaller bagel. Bagels have gotten too big. You should be able to eat a whole bagel, you know, like, I don't want to eat a half bagel, like, because then it's like you cut it in half crosswise or, like, you know, like across the. You know what I'm saying? Like, you get the top, whatever. It's sloppy. So first of all, I think most bagels are too big. So I like a smaller bagel. I like my bagel to have some chew to it, which, you know, typically comes from a bagel made with, like, a higher protein flour. Like, I want it, like, I don't want it to be, like, jawbreaking, but I want it to have some tug to it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, and I've eaten great sourdough bagels, but I don't necessarily think that a bagel needs to or should be sourdough. And the one thing that I really do like and that I think is harder to find and certainly is not a hallmark of the lender style bagel is, you know, sometimes you get a bagel that has, like, a very thin, crisp crust.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Oh, I love that. Like, and that comes from the boil and the bake. But not everyone gets that right. Like, when it's that shiny, very thin crust, I think is, like, the ultimate. And, you know, around the start of the year I went to Montreal City. I love Great Food City.
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B
Oh, my God, Montreal is amazing.
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A
And I went to Fairmont and I went to St. Viateur, which are the two sort of, like, best known Montreal bagel spots. And Montreal bagels are significantly smaller. They are, you know, cooked in, boiled in honey, like water that's had honey added to it. And they have like a. They're not quite like the shiny crust. But I have to say, a Montreal bagel is a great thing. And I ate a bunch of those. And as is my custom, did I bring back 12 dozen bagels and put them in my chest freezer next to my tortillas? I sure did.
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B
So everyone in Montreal, check out the thrift stores in Montreal because there are some of Jessica's clothes there that she had to unpack.
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A
I drove to Montreal, so I didn't. I was.
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B
Got it. Got it. And get.
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A
So I've been eating a lot of Montreal bagels, which I know are a different thing, but also a good thing. I'm not going to say better than New York. They're totally different, but very pleasing. But what about. What about you? What's your sort of archetype of a perfect bagel?
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B
I have very traditional thoughts about bagels. I think. I think I've been deeply influenced by Jonathan Frisch Stick, who is a longtime teacher here at the King Arthur Baking School. He was sort of our bagel guy. He grew up in Queens. Yeah. And I produced the on demand bagel class that we have on our site. It's a great class. He's a great guy. I mean, he's just. He's just a mensch, and he knows so much about bagels, but he's super traditional. Right. And so I've absorbed a lot of his opinions. But then I went to Bagel Fest, and Bagel Fest is a. It's an event in New York now also in Los Angeles. King Arthur sponsors it. Full disclosure. And it's a place where bagel makers from across the country converge. And it's like a light competition. It's all in fun, you know, but it's a competition, you know, who has the best bagel. But really, it's an opportunity to walk around and taste like 20 bagels around the country, you know, at once super fun. And bagels. And it's. And it's converted me a little bit to a different style of bagel.
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A
Okay.
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B
Because there's so many bagels that, you know, like you hinted at. Are you seeing sourdough now? There's so many bagels that are really intentionally going for an open crumb.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And they're a much lighter, much lighter experience. And at first I was like, I don't know, this doesn't, this, this just doesn't feel like a bagel to me. But one, one bagel shop in particular called Fancy Bagels in Kingston, New York. F A N T Z Y E tried them at Bagel Fest, happened to be in Kingston a couple months later, went up to K, went to the shop, had just one of my best bagels I've ever had in my life, honestly, and had been fully converted by this, by this bagel shop in Kingston. And it's all sourdough, very chewy, pretty open crumb, but it's crispy, it's not too big, you know, it's boiled. I don't know. I was a real cranky bagel guy before and now I'm just a little less cranky about it. So my answer to your question, you know, now that I've been talking for 20 minutes, is I'm open to lots of different styles of bagels now, which I thought, you know, which I never would have thought I would have been.
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A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think that is something that has happened. Like, you know, when you talk about the bagel unions of the Lower east side, you know, they were probably making more or less the same type of bagels, you know, and now there is more experiment. And also it used to be like only Jewish bakers eat bagels. That is not true anymore either.
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B
Yes. So I admit it can be done, which is something I would have never said before, which is really kind of what this episode is about. It's all about me and my changing my, my bagel journey. But we invited a bagel maker from la. Who would have ever thought that I would have ever wanted to talk to a bagel maker from la, but to talk about, you know, you know, how can we change? How can bagels change? How have bagels changed? And it was a really interesting conversation. Carlos Perez is the co owner of Boil and Bake in Costa Mesa, California. He grew up in the bagel business and now is part of the new wave of Southern California bagel makers redefining what a bagel can be. Carlos, thank you for coming on Things Bakers Now.
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C
Thanks for the invite.
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B
I want to start off with a deep question in the bagel world, which is, are your bagels New York style bagels?
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C
No. No.
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B
And I knew the answer to that, of course, because you're, you're calling from la, we're talking to you in la. And that's really getting at the heart of what I want to talk about, which is what is a California bagel or an LA bagel? And is that. Well, first of all, how would you describe your bagels?
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C
So my bagels, they are. So we started with using the term naturally leavened just because we felt, even though it is sourdough starter based, all that. But we found that every time we would say naturally leavened, the reason we didn't want to use sourdough is then we don't want people to assume because, you know, sometimes sourdough bread can be very tangy, very, you know, very sour, but ours are not. We try to find a balance between having just that slight tang from the sourdough, but still have that classic bagel leaf flavor. But we try to blend ours with the sourdough and the fermentation. So, you know, a little chewier exterior, but with a more heavy crumb on the inside, kind of. That's Corabagosaur,
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B
A heavier, tighter crumb on the inside.
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C
Sorry, a lighter crumb. So just a lighter crumb?
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B
Yes. More open crumb.
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C
Yeah, open.
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B
So as you're describing your bagel to me, naturally fermented, more open crumb than perhaps bagels on the east coast or what most people are used to in a bagel. I feel like you're describing to me what I am now calling a California style bagel or even an LA style bagel.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I wonder what you think about that, because the, the reason I'm calling it that is because you are one of a handful of bagel shops that have opened up in the LA area in the past few years. And there's this, there seem to be, there seems to be a similar style among these, these new operations in la. And I'm just kind of curious, like what your take is on the term Calif. Bagel, if that is something that you think can be classified and also if there is a California style bagel. Now how did that happen?
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C
That's a good question. So now I don't know how it happened. I mean, obviously I took inspiration from, you know, courage bagels.
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A
Right.
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C
And stuff like that. Like, I, I'm, I'm sure you guys did some research. I grew up in the bagel business, just a local bagel chain here in Orange County. Then my dad took over when I was a little kid. So I grew up in the bagel business already. So as I got older, and then I got a Car. And then I, you know, started, you know, going out and trying different restaurants in general. Started noticing kind of like the bakery scene in la. And then I, you know, I heard about, like, courage and stuff like that. And then when I started noticing, like, your courage open up and stuff like that, then I was like, oh, I absolutely love this. You know, it's different, you know, and then, you know, and I wanted it. Yeah, I don't know. I guess that's kind of what happened now, years later, now that there's more establishments and I feel like LA has created a bagel scene, I guess you could consider California bagels to be that, you know, it's a lot lighter, you know, sourdough right now with the, you know, the height of sourdough. Bakeries in general, too.
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B
How are people reacting to your bagels? You know, you opened when. What. What year did you open?
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C
2022. July. So we're. This. In a few months, we'll be four years in.
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B
Okay, so four years in. Congratulations. Thank you. What has the reaction been to your bagels?
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C
I mean, overall, it's. It's been great. It's funny because I'll get like, oh, this is different. You know what I mean? But then it's really funny because we do have a lot of New York transplants, especially post, you know, pandemic. A lot of people from the East Coast, New York, moved here to Orange county seeking, you know, more chill life. But I get a lot of New Yorkers that are like, oh, finally, this reminds me of home. And I'm like, oh, you know, I. I'm happy that they love it, but I'm like, this is nothing like New York style. But, you know, like, it's been really funny, man.
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B
Yeah, that's really weird.
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C
It's been really funny, you know. Yeah. And then. But again, it's been positive. It's. We got a lot of, like, oh, this is very different, but it's still very enjoyable. You know what I mean?
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B
Or.
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C
Yeah, it's just. It's a tree of. It's. The feedback has been all over the place, to be honest with you. Yeah, it really has. Which is really interesting because people have
- [20:11]
B
such opinions, such strong opinions about bagels.
- [20:15]
C
Exactly. And I think we did a really. We try really. We still try really hard to not call it New York style. You know, like, we have California style on the board. Really implement the California as of our, you know, our concept that. I feel like maybe that kind of helps. When people come in, they don't expect that you Know what I mean? They're just like. Because for me, when I. I wasn't trying to be anything New York, Montreal style, whatever, I was just trying to. I created a bagel recipe that I really thought was delicious and I'm like, if you like it, you like it.
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B
Cool.
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C
And so far people like it. That's just kind of the approach I took, you know? Yeah, I'm not trying to copy anything. Really quick little interjection before I forget. When you asked me about like when I noticed the bagel change the first time I was when Black Seed bagels first opened. Because when I was like 20, like in 2011, I started traveling to New York a lot and Black Seed bagels was the first time I noticed like, oh, people are starting to try to do different things with bagels. I didn't want to forget about Black Seed.
- [21:15]
B
Yeah, Black Seed being a bagel shop that, yeah, to your point, opened around then, around 2010, 2011, here in New York City. Still around, if I'm not mistaken, it was taking some stuff from Montreal.
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C
That's right.
- [21:31]
B
Sort of a Montreal style bagel, which I think means wood fired, but yeah, that it. And you know what, that's a great point because I was here at that time and I remember the first of all the buzz around Black Seed. It seems like there was a real hunger for a different style of bagel.
- [21:46]
C
It was the first time somebody did something completely different, especially in the Mecca of bagels. You know what I mean?
- [21:51]
B
Yeah, yeah. Let's go back to when you were developing the bagel. I love that, I love what you said that you just developed. You made a bagel that you loved. Take me back to those days when you were developing. Where were you developing the bagel? And, and, and what was that time?
- [22:09]
C
So again, I worked my dad's business from high school. I graduated 2008 until, you know, essentially Covid. So I just was managing more, you know, like I just learned, I learned the kitchen just through working, you know, the three locations. So I was like almost like a self taught cook, I guess, and just going out and trying new things, traveling around the country. But I was like, you know, just, I think creatively speaking, I was getting a little, I guess bored, you know, because again, these restaurants have been around. It's just maintenance, you know. So yeah, like I was doing great. It's my family business. I'm happy. But there was a creative side of me, you know, I'm a musician, haven't played in years. I guess I still call myself a Musician. But there's that creative side of me that I guess was like, you know, missing something, you know, like something I wanted to do myself. Not a brand that my family took over. And we're just maintaining it and, you know, just making it better. But, you know, the foundation is there. So then I kind of always talk to my dad about, like, I want to open something new. I want to open something with my own twist. And then that's when I noticed courage. And I was like, okay, that's cool. And then started seeing other places or bakeries open up. And then one time I told my dad, I'm like, you cool if I step away from the company and, like, try to do my own thing? And my dad's like, dude, of course, you know, he's been super supportive. I mean, obviously he's. He is my, you know, my parents are my, I would say, you know, partners, silent partners in this project. So he. I got really lucky because they let me use, you know, our bagel business to develop my own stuff, you know, so I would go on a night when the crew was gone, you know, 10, 11 at night, and just experiment with my dough and bake it there, you know, because I knew at 3am I had to get out of there before their bakers came in kind of thing. So, yeah, I got really lucky in that sense.
- [23:52]
B
Thank you so much for talking to us, Carlos. We really appreciate it. And thank you. Thank you. Good luck. Keep on pushing those bagels.
- [23:58]
C
Thank you.
- [24:06]
E
This is Christopher Kimball from Milk Street Radio. On a recent episode, Jose Andres reveals secrets from Spain. Like, if you're out at a Spanish restaurant that has churros on the dessert menu, please walk out.
- [24:18]
B
Churros in a restaurant is not something traditionally you will see that's done in another moment, in another part of the sequence of life.
- [24:28]
E
And Jose says, anything invented in France was probably Spanish first.
- [24:33]
B
Mayones is a Spanish invention. I am Jose Andres and I endorse this message.
- [24:43]
E
Jose Andres takes us to Spain. Take a listen to Milk Street Radio or just search your podcast app for Milk Street Radio.
- [25:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Brod and Taylor Broad. Taylor is an independent family owned company that builds tools for all bread bakers at every level to transform complex baking challenges into simple pleasures.
- [25:14]
B
I love Brod and Taylor. I mean, they are so passionate about bread and baking. When I talk to those folks, it really feels like I'm talking to someone at King Arthur too. There's that synergy there because we only have one thing on our minds. It's Baking, baking, baking.
- [25:27]
A
I love their tools. They really, truly are an asset for every home baker. And you and I both have quite a few of them in our own kitchens. You know, my favorite I think is the countertop proofer. I don't know you're into the baking steel, but they have a lot of great tools.
- [25:44]
B
I love the baking steel.
- [25:45]
A
Whether you're a first time baker or you're like in deep like us, there's something for you@broadandtaylor.com that's B R O- A N D T A Y-L-O-R.com this episode is brought to you by Gozney. Gozney is the maker of some fabulous outdoor pizza ovens. We use them throughout the testing for the Book of Pizza. I mean, it's summer entertaining season. Wouldn't you like to have an outdoor pizza oven on your patio? I know that I would also. Would you like.
- [26:15]
B
I'd like to have a patio.
- [26:15]
A
I'd like to have a patio Also. Wouldn't you like to cook a pizza in 90 seconds or less? I would, yeah. Gosne Pizza Ovens. You can find them@Kingarthurbaking.com shop. They also ship free.
- [26:28]
B
It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers for Ask the Bakers. We want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast ask and you can record a voice message there and we may answer your question on the show.
- [26:42]
A
But you know what, we also have operators standing by. If you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can go to our baker's hotline, find us on online chat, email or you can call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake. Or go to kingarthurbaking.com bakers hotline.
- [27:05]
B
Our first question.
- [27:06]
D
Hi. Love you guys. I was wondering what is the best flour for making bagels? Do I need a high protein or high gluten flour or can I use all purpose?
- [27:16]
A
Okay, this is a good question. This is a foundational question. So we haven't talked that much on the show about high gluten flour. High gluten flour is a product that we sell. Other flour producers also make a high gluten flour and that is a higher, also a higher protein flour. We have talked a lot on the show about what protein levels in flour mean. And I think our high gluten flour is 14% protein. So compare that to our all purpose flour, which is, you know, 11%. And then our bread flour, you know, comes in, in between the two. So you don't need necessarily high gluten flour to make great bagels, but you do need a higher protein flour. So, you know, can you make bagels with all purpose flour? Yes. But you're, they're going to, you're going to sacrifice some of that chewiness that you would get by using a flour that has higher protein, like a bread flour or a high gluten flour.
- [28:14]
B
I think this is where people get sort of twisted and they make bagels that end up just tasting and feeling like bread is where they. Maybe they're using all purpose flour instead. Because without all that protein in the flour, it's really hard to get the chewy density, which I say with love, you know, that you want in a bagel or that I want in a bagel.
- [28:38]
A
Yeah. I mean, then you're starting. The other thing about bagels which we haven't talked about yet, is that, you know, that dough requires a really long mix time, like machine mix to, you know, get that proper strength and development which gives it that chewiness. So obviously starting with a flour that has more protein in it is going to give you a head start. And then, you know, it gets mixed for like, you know, eight or 10 minutes in a stand mixer with a dough hook till it's like a really strong dough. I like to say it's like the alonamar of doughs, you know?
- [29:08]
B
Yes. No idea what that means, but yes. Gluten flour is a really fun flour to work with, especially for making bagels if you haven't used it before. It is remarkable what just a little bit more gluten can do. Sorry, did I pronounce gluten right? I said gluten. It's a little.
- [29:24]
A
Hit your tea.
- [29:25]
B
Yeah, I gotta hit my tea. It's remarkable what a little more gluten can do. When I make bagels with high gluten flour, I'm like, this is what they make rubber bands out of. It is like the dough is so strong you can tug at it and it doesn't break, it doesn't tear. With bread flour, you need to do a little bit more mixing. You need to develop that gluten. A little bit more high gluten flour allows you to do a somewhat shorter mix because it gets there quicker. It also makes the bagels relatively easy to shape. It's not a sticky dough, it doesn't stick to the countertop. You do maybe need to let it rest a bit more than you would maybe with a bagel made from bread flour. Because the gluten is so strong snapping
- [30:06]
A
back, especially when it comes to the rolling stage, you know. Rolling stage.
- [30:10]
B
Yeah.
- [30:11]
A
It just wants to, you know, you roll your snake. Say if you're shaping your bagels by, you know, forming a snake and then wrapping around your fingers and sealing it, you know, the snake wants to snap back.
- [30:21]
B
Yes. Right.
- [30:22]
A
So you just have to. And that's why it's interesting to do bagel making. I mean, in a lot of things, in baking, in a sort of serialized way. Right. So it's like you roll one snake, then you roll the others, then you come back to the first one. And by the time you get back to, you know, you've done a do bagels, you come back, the first one, it's like had five minutes or seven minutes to kind of relax, and then you'll be able to stretch it to the length that you want.
- [30:43]
B
Totally.
- [30:44]
A
Yeah. I think high gluten flour is like a fun thing to have in your toolkit. I mean, it's not something you're going to use for cakes. Like you're gonna use it for bread.
- [30:51]
B
Oh, God.
- [30:51]
A
And you're gonna use it for bagels. So it has, you know, a more limited application than say, the all purpose, but the applications that it is intended for, I think it really shines.
- [31:00]
B
Yeah.
- [31:00]
A
And bagels is one of them.
- [31:01]
B
And interestingly, we've spent a lot of time on this program, not today, but in other episodes, talking about sourdough loaves with big open crumbs. And a lot of people who are doing those really high hydration, super open sourdoughs are throwing a little bit of high gluten flour in the mix, because that protein is creating that really strong gluten network that can support a really open crumb and a lot of. A lot of air. Yeah. So it has applications beyond bagels.
- [31:32]
A
Yeah. So go get it.
- [31:34]
B
Get it back.
- [31:34]
A
Yeah. Great question. Let's hear our next one.
- [31:39]
D
What should I add to the water to boil the bagels in? I have been adding molasses, and I'm not super excited about the sheen and the finish of the skin. It just doesn't feel like the bagels that you get at a true bagel shop. What's the best option at home to boil the bagels in?
- [32:02]
B
This is controversial.
- [32:03]
A
This is controversial. And I think, you know, back to what we were saying earlier about regionality, you know, there is some regional indication, I think, for what you do or do not put in your water. So typically, I think I can say typically, there is some sort of sweetener added to the water in which you boil your bagels. We were talking earlier about Montreal. That sweetener is honey, which gives them, you know, a sort of distinctive flavor. But also, I mean, barley malt syrup is another competition. Yeah, some people put brown sugar in their water. I mean, we know that there are other strong opinions at this company about this, including we mentioned, you know, Jonathan Frisch, Dick, as our, you know, our bagel, our true source of bagel knowledge. Yes, he has a take on this.
- [32:55]
B
He doesn't put anything in his water at all, which I think is an interesting take because it's really drives home the point that this is not a. This is not a critical part of the process. You can still make a bagel without, you know, putting honey or barley malt syrup in your water. So just in case anybody's really worried about that, don't let that stop you from making bagels. I think he doesn't like to put anything as water because he just doesn't want a sweet bagel. And that is, you know, another sort of criticism of a lot of modern bagels right now is that they are pretty sweet, that you can get some pretty sweet bagels out there. So anything to cut down on that.
- [33:34]
A
I mean, and adding some sweetener to the water will help with browning. But it's not the only. I mean, a strong bake will also
- [33:40]
B
help with browning and it helps with shine, too. I mean, gives your bagel. It helps with the appearance of your bagel and the flavor. I don't. I don't mind a little sweetness on my bagel. So I put whatever in there. If I had. I don't know. Are you personally asking me, Colin, let me tell you, if I have a liquid sweetener around, like the malt syrup or honey, maybe even maple syrup, I'll. Maybe I'll throw a little bit in there. But I. Brown sugar, white sugar. That's where I draw the line. You know, anything granulated? No, no.
- [34:09]
A
I mean, then I would say barley malt syrup. It's not the easiest thing to get your hands on. Like, they have it in. I mean, it's not the hardest thing, but they have it in health food stores.
- [34:16]
B
Exactly. I was gonna say, you gotta go to that health food store.
- [34:18]
A
Health food store. So it can be, you know, sometimes that feels like a roadblock. Then you could use a different sweetener or you can leave it out. There's not like A hard and fast rule about it.
- [34:26]
B
Yeah.
- [34:26]
A
So do what you want to do. Live your life.
- [34:29]
B
Yep.
- [34:31]
A
Let's go to our last question. What is the best way to shape bagels? Have you noticed how many of our callers want to know about the best way? Yeah, I mean, I, I share that. You're like, tell me the best place to get the chocolate chip cookie. Tell me the best. I mean, and sometimes there is a clear best, and sometimes there is. I mean, I don't think we're just hedging our bets to say, like, you know, there are different, different strokes for different folks. However, there is the best way to shape a bagel. No.
- [35:04]
B
Well, well, actually, I think, I wonder what you were going to say it is because, well, you know, there are two main ways to shape a bagel which we can go over. They both get you bagels, and so they're both fine. I have a pretty strong opinion about which way is preferred. And to my shock and dismay, one day I opened up our Big Book of Bread, our own book, the bagel recipe, called the Best Bagel, the Best Bagels, and saw that it was shaped in the way that I do not do it. So. Which I think just goes to show that you're right. There are many ways, and they're all going to get you there. In the Big Book of Bread.
- [35:47]
A
Yes.
- [35:48]
B
You poke. You make a. You make a round of dough, and you poke through it with your thumb, and then you sort of use your fingers to expand. Expand the hole. If you. Those of you watching YouTube can. Can see me.
- [36:01]
A
Yeah. And there are some pictures in the Big Book of Bread that illustrate this idea.
- [36:05]
B
Yeah.
- [36:07]
A
Yes. And I want to say something about that, which is that I think if you are a new bagel baker, it is perhaps easier than the other method, because the other method has you rolling a length of dough into a snake, like we were talking about, and then you sort of wrap the snake around your four fingers of your hand and, you know, overlapping the end slightly. And then, you know, you press to seal, and then you roll on that. That seam there where you seal the ends together.
- [36:35]
B
Right.
- [36:36]
A
And, you know, if you're good at it, you can get a uniformly, you know, wide bagel all the way around, like you. Or you can just get a uniform bagel. If you're not good at it, you get a bagel that's, like, uniform except where the seams connect and it's, like, thin and, you know, and weird.
- [36:52]
B
Yeah.
- [36:53]
A
So I would say, like, having made bagels, many bagels in My life, I prefer the snake method. Like, I think. I don't know, it's like, to me is like a more pleasing round shape. The hole's a little bit bigger, but I would say it's more challenging to get an even bagel. So if you're making bagels for the first time, you might want to start with the poke method because you don't have to worry about the seam. And, like, if you don't connect the seam well enough, like, the bagel can come apart in the water.
- [37:20]
B
Yeah. You know, I think that the rolling and shaping around your hand, I think, is the traditional way. And so that's why some people are partial to that. And I think that's the only way to do it. As we know bagels are, you know, people have a lot of feelings steeped in big old tradition about, you know, how to. How to make them. My only concern about the poke method, which I think is a perfectly great method and will get you a good bagel, is that you make the hole big enough. Because what I think is a tragedy is when the bagel hole closes and then you have something that looks like. Looks like a butt, you know, like, you know, or it looks like a swollen eye, like someone's been punched in the eye.
- [37:59]
A
And, you know, I don't know. If you watch that video that Priya Krishna did, New York Times, where she went to the bagel. It was like a day in the life of the bagel. And she, you know, tracks them through the process of making these bagels. And it was amazing to watch. Like, the pro bagel makers that are rolling two bagels on their hands at once, like, is really kind of next level. So fast. I am not fast like that. I am very slow. But yeah, like we said, there's no, like, right way. There's no best way. There's just sort of two different paths, both of which will get you a good bagel.
- [38:32]
C
Yeah.
- [38:32]
B
If you do it right. All right, thanks for those questions, callers. We're now going out of the question segment and into the opinion segment, because every episode we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full threaded ideas are in her head. Cannot wait to hear what your final Jess opinion of season three is.
- [38:53]
A
Don't you like how I go from the question period where I'm like, it's fine. It's all good. Everybody do what you want. It all works. And then we get to the opinions and I'm like, but actually, there's only one right way. I think There is nothing more gross. Okay? I mean, there are probably more gross things, but cream cheese applied to a hot toasted bagel make this make sense to me. Because, I mean, I know in New York, as you said, like, most bagel shops are not going to toast a bagel because they're fresh and delicious, but also probably because they know it's gross to put cream cheese on a hot bagel. Cause it starts to slide.
- [39:29]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [39:30]
A
And melt off. I mean, people do it all the time. They're like, toast my bagel. And then I'm like, what? Like, then. And, you know, it does present a quandary because I do like a toasted bagel. Especially, like, if you're not getting a super fresh bagel.
- [39:43]
B
The shock on your face. I wish people go. Go to YouTube so you can see it.
- [39:48]
A
Like, I do like a toast on a bagel. Because often the ones I'm getting are not, like, super fresh. You know, I'm not going to the New York bagel shops and getting it. So I like a little toast. But then I'm presented with a, like, a dilemma. If I want to put cream cheese on that, like, I have to let the toasted bagel. Cool.
- [40:05]
B
Yeah.
- [40:06]
A
And that's kind of weird then, because, like, a toast a cold. Like, we're not in England, you know, I don't want cold toasted things like, whoa, oh, wow.
- [40:14]
B
Shade to England.
- [40:16]
A
So I don't know. I just. I see people doing it. I see Bill toasting that bagel and then slapping that cream cheese on and. Not for me. No. Thank you.
- [40:26]
B
You know, I think this is a pretty tame. Jessica. I agree with you. 100. I think. I think what you're doing right here is a PSA to America. Like, stop doing this thing. That doesn't make any sense. You're not. If you're putting cream cheese on a hot bagel, you're not really getting the cream cheese. It's melted all over your knife. Like, where is it? I don't know. But you didn't get it in your mouth.
- [40:43]
A
Yeah. And then, of course, it follows up with. My other problem is, like, you have to put on so much cream cheese to get it to stick. And then you have too much cream cheese. And then.
- [40:52]
B
Let me just. Yeah, you put a whole half pint of cream cheese on there.
- [40:55]
A
Some of it melts off.
- [40:57]
B
Who cares? Yeah, a quarter pint left.
- [41:00]
A
And then, you know, let's just say for a second, in closing, what is up with a blueberry bagel? I'm just gonna Leave that there.
- [41:06]
B
Oh, wow.
- [41:07]
A
I'm just gonna leave that there.
- [41:08]
B
Leave that there until the next season. Okay, great.
- [41:12]
A
It's not right. And as a person that comes from a state where the blueberry is revered.
- [41:16]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [41:17]
A
You know, blueberry's king in my home state of Maine. But you know where it doesn't belong? In a bagel.
- [41:24]
B
Well, you know what my favorite bagel growing up was? The chocolate chip bagel.
- [41:28]
A
Oh, boy.
- [41:29]
B
Now I should really go to prison for that. Yeah, I mean, you should.
- [41:32]
A
I can't believe you're saying that.
- [41:33]
B
I did. I went to Jupy. I'm out now. I'm reformed.
- [41:36]
A
First you say New York bagels are trash, and then at the very tail end of the season, you cop to loving a chocolate chip bagel.
- [41:42]
B
Having once. Loved.
- [41:43]
A
Yes, having once. Well, we've grown. We've changed.
- [41:46]
B
Yes, we do.
- [41:46]
A
Throughout the course of this season and our lives also.
- [41:50]
B
Maybe. Yeah.
- [41:53]
A
Before we go, though, what are you gonna bake this week?
- [41:57]
B
Well, speaking of chocolate, you know, because now whenever I talk about bagels, I think chocolate. We recently came out with a recipe for small batch chocolate cupcakes. I love this. I mean, I love a cupcake. I'm a kid at heart. You know, I'm just a sweet, innocent child. And I want a chocolate cupcake with sprinkles on it. Am I ever gonna have an opportunity to make 12 cupcakes? Like, what would I do with them? I guess I would throw them in the freezer, which is something my mom does. I didn't know you could do it.
- [42:24]
A
Oh, she puts the frosted cupcakes in the freezer.
- [42:26]
B
Yeah, full frost. I mean, she'll just buy them at the bakery and just bam, in the freezer and it works. But I don't do that. And so the small batch chocolate cupcake recipe is for me. Cause it makes four. It makes four. Which is about how many I will eat after dinner.
- [42:42]
A
Yeah. Maybe you can give one to your
- [42:43]
B
husband, one to my husband, and three for me, which makes a big slice of cake.
- [42:47]
A
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
- [42:48]
B
Yeah.
- [42:48]
A
I have the opposite problem because I imagine making four cupcakes for my family, and I imagine the revolt. My children would be like, where are. Where are the other eight? You know? But that is a great recipe. I got to taste that one in development too. And it's like, you know, it's so great because it's such a small amount of ingredients that you can mix it in a single bowl. You know, it's really like a no fuss path to and Cupcakes are fast, you know, like, they don't bake very long. It's like, start to finish. You can have cupcakes, like, almost immediately. Almost close to immediately.
- [43:20]
B
Yeah.
- [43:21]
A
You know, I'm gonna make. Well, I know I've been, like, agonizing over the weather throughout the course of the season, but I'm at the stage now where I go to my yard, like, every day and, like, look for, like, what's growing out there. Like, we have a garden. And the first thing that comes up, like, that I am, like, on hands and knees, like, pawing around in the mulch for, is our rhubarb plant. And that, to me, is, like, the real harbinger of spring. I don't have enough to cut from my rhubarb plant yet, but the grocery store now is starting to get some imported rhubarb. And so I'm gonna make these swirled rhubarb bars. We've talked about these on the show before. You really like this?
- [43:58]
B
I love them.
- [43:59]
A
It's a blondie base. And then you make, like, a quick stovetop jam with rhubarb that gets, like, swirled into the top, and they're just really elegant. I will mention they have white chocolate in them. And I just. I'm, you know, I'm on record, so I just omit the white chocolate. I just do them without the white chocolate. But if you like, like white chocolate, you know, make the recipe as written. But those are, like, a nice little, like, shoulder season bake when you, you know, you're still waiting on the other stuff. So I'm gonna make those.
- [44:32]
B
It's a great recipe.
- [44:33]
A
It's a great recipe.
- [44:34]
B
And I get. I. That is something I. I throw in the freezer so I can have rhubarb all summer long or for at least two weeks, which is about how long it takes me to do it.
- [44:43]
A
I think it's kind of nice. Like, you make your first rhubarb pie, and then it's like, okay, well, what now? And I think this is the answer to what now, right? Yeah.
- [44:50]
B
Do you make a, like, a 100% rhubarb pie?
- [44:52]
A
I do. I don't mess with strawberry rhubarb. I'm gonna save that opinion for another episode, though.
- [44:57]
B
Okay.
- [44:57]
A
It's okay.
- [44:58]
B
So we'll save that for season four.
- [45:00]
A
But thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.
- [45:03]
B
Yes. Remember to like the podcast and subscribe to it. Go on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, wherever you list. Listen and like and subscribe us there.
- [45:12]
A
You can leave a review also for this episode or any of the episodes. And also, you know, there's a lot of people out there that don't know about this podcast. Right. And they should know. So share an episode. Share the season with a friend that can binge. You know, it's kind of nice when you get to, I love when I discover, you know, like a book or a movie and I'm like, oh, this author, this, like, you know, whatever, like it's new to me. And then you can go back and read or watch, you know, their other work. And so now there's three whole seasons. People can just listen their way through all summer long until we're back with
- [45:45]
B
season four and we're on substack. So you can continue to hear from us there. We will send a few newsletters out here and there between seasons and you can read through our archives there. Everything we do is evergreen. We never get old.
- [45:59]
A
No. Forever young.
- [46:00]
B
We're always right and we're always timeless.
- [46:03]
A
Yes.
- [46:04]
B
That's the thing about us.
- [46:06]
A
And in the meantime.
- [46:08]
B
Yes. Follow the recipe, folks.
- [46:10]
A
Follow the recipe.
- [46:11]
B
Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive
- [46:13]
A
produced by me, David Tumarkin and me, Jessica Battellana.
- [46:17]
B
Rossi Anastapoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chanay is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.
- [46:25]
A
Special thanks to this week's guest, Carlos Perez from Boyle and Baker. To learn more about his work, check out boilandbake.com Things Bakers Know is a
- [46:35]
B
King Arthur Baking Company podcast. This episode is brought to you by a new collaboration between King Arthur and Supernatural. Supernatural, of course, is the maker of America's brightest dye free sprinkles. And we are putting those sprinkles in our new confetti cake mix and confetti sugar cookie mix. Let me tell you something. I made the cake and I made into an ice cream cake. It was gorgeous. It was celebratory. It was like my birthday, but it wasn't even my birthday. Find both mixes at Target target. Com and of course@kingarthurbaking.com.