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Things Bakers Know: The King Arthur Baking Podcast
This Loaf Changed American Bread, with Chad Robertson
00:57:59
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- [00:00]
David Tamarkin
This episode is sponsored by Brod and Taylor, makers of the new countertop dough sheeter built to elevate every bake ahead. When I hear country Bread, I think of Ye Olde country from King Arthur Baking Company. This is things bakers know. I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.
- [00:20]
Jessica Batalana
And I'm Jessica Batalana, senior editor at King Arthur. And today, we're talking about the bread that changed the way Americans think about bread. Specifically, this episode is all about San Francisco's Tartine Bakery, Chad Robertson, and the country loaf that launched a thousand loaves.
- [00:42]
David Tamarkin
That's not an exaggeration. It really is thousands and thousands of loaves. And I'm really glad we're talking about this because it's been 16 years since Chad wrote his seminal book, Tartine Bread. And in that time, we've seen a huge shift in how American bread is made, is talked about, is even just thought of.
- [01:02]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah.
- [01:03]
David Tamarkin
And we really can trace a lot of that back to Chad Robertson and the bread he was making at Tartine, I think ever since they opened in 2002.
- [01:12]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah. I mean, and this is the first time we've done an episode that's sort of like laser focused on one place and one person. But it seemed like an obvious thing to do, especially when we saw that the anniversary of the book was coming up. It was sort of like, how can we not talk about this? Because it really did change everything.
- [01:27]
David Tamarkin
Yeah.
- [01:28]
Jessica Batalana
And I was looking back at a 2016 article in the San Francisco Chronicle that was written by my friend, the food writer Jonathan Kaufman, and it was called Tartine Bread Turns into an American Culinary Movement. I mean, and that was like 10 years ago that we were talking about that. And it was. I think he summed it up so well. He says in that article, just as the 1970s gave rise to the doorstop whole wheat loaf in the 1980s to shattering golden baguettes, the 2010s belonged to the long fermented country loaf, which is totally true. And, you know, some listeners, careful listeners of the podcast who track my every movement, will recall that I lived in San Francisco.
- [02:08]
David Tamarkin
They'll know your address.
- [02:08]
Jessica Batalana
They'll know my address. I will be doxed immediately. I lived in San Francisco for almost 17 years, and that whole time, I was within walking distance of Tartine Bakery.
- [02:21]
David Tamarkin
Oh, my God.
- [02:22]
Jessica Batalana
I know. I mean, it was a good run. And, you know, I got to know Chad and his then wife, Liz Prud, who is also a phenomenal baker and has an amazing gluten free substack which you should check out. When that bakery opened on Guerrero and 18th street in San Francisco, like the. There was not a ton happening on that block. And then, you know, it was like, then Delfino restaurant opened and there Spy right Market on the block. And that was like, like a really, like, amazing stretch for eating. And at that time, when Tartine first opened, Chad had arranged the bread schedule to suit his life schedule. So they had a young child, he also loves to surf. And he was like, I don't. Like, I have to make this schedule work for me. And so, you know, a lot of bakers come in at three in the morning and they leave. You know, that's what the King Arthur bakers do. They come in at 3 in the morning, they leave at 11. But Chad would come in at a more civilized hour, which meant that the bread would not come out of the oven until 5pm and you know how you and I have talked a lot about how we feel about lines.
- [03:29]
David Tamarkin
Yeah.
- [03:29]
Jessica Batalana
But I would go and I would wait in that line and you would get the bread hot from the oven. And I just like, I have such memories of like pressing the sort of like oversized, like chestnut colored, like warm loaf of bread to my chest as I walked home and just feeling like, very smug.
- [03:48]
David Tamarkin
I understand.
- [03:49]
Interviewer/Host
Carrying an infant like a bread infant across the city.
- [03:52]
David Tamarkin
Yes. You and I are famously against lines, but that is a line I would wait in.
- [03:56]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah, it was. It's a line to wade in. And it was unlike any bread that I had had before.
- [04:01]
David Tamarkin
Yeah. You know, which is funny because if we describe this bread, it's going to sound like every loaf of sourdough you can get, like, on so many corners across the country and all around the world now.
- [04:13]
Jessica Batalana
Which is around the world. Yeah. So this loaf, this country loaf, for people that are not familiar with it, it's a big loaf of bread. You know, those country loaves were like a batard shape, deeply, deeply browned, you know, with a very CR crust. And then when you would cut it open, you know, I would always try and wait until it cooled off, you know, to cut into it. But you never could because that smell, it has like, you know, the big sort of open structure, almost like a custardy interior. I mean, the people listening are like, oh, yeah, I get that now at like 7:11. But you know, at that time, like, nobody was doing even in, you know, San Francisco, birthplace of sourdough, like, nobody was doing bread quite like that.
- [04:58]
David Tamarkin
Yeah. And so those are the. Those are the physical characteristics which I Think you summed up really well. And the technical specs are also sort of have been influential as well. It's a high hydration sourdough, which is, you know, in 2002, when Tartin opened, I don't think those words, that phrase didn't exist. Yeah, probably did. It wasn't. It wasn't, you know, on the tip of our tongues as it is now. It's long fermented, it's, you know, I think minimally handled. You know, you know, it's not needed. It's folded, it's shaped with a really sort of interesting, like, stitching method. I think that. I don't know if that originated with Chad, and I guess we'll maybe hear later today when you talk to him, but when you see videos of Chad making bread, which of course there are like a million on YouTube now, the stitching method of how. Of how he closes his loaves in the bannetons is interesting.
- [05:52]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah, it is. And, you know, I mean, and now you see, like, you know, you see bread like that. Like, I think about like, I was laughing. There's like a sea wolf and a she wolf. You know, there's a sea.
- [06:03]
David Tamarkin
Yeah.
- [06:04]
Jessica Batalana
So, I mean, you know, keep those straight if you can. But Seawolf in Seattle, she wolf in New York, Publican in Chicago, I think makes bread that's very similar to that in my hometown of Portland, Maine. Bread and friends, you know, it's. That is the bread. Now, I think that's what people think of as like an artisan loaf of bread. Right.
- [06:23]
David Tamarkin
I think it's what we call. And even in our book, Big Book of Bread, or, you know, we. We use this terminology, we call it a country loaf or country bread.
- [06:31]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah.
- [06:32]
David Tamarkin
And what I don't know is if that is that true. I mean, when I hear country bread, I think of ye olde country. More words that I can't believe just came out of my mouth. But I think of a. I think of a very old world style of bread. When I think of old world, I think of Europe. I think of things that way. Preceded 2002.
- [06:52]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah.
- [06:52]
David Tamarkin
And so I don't know, and I'm interested to listen to this episode to find out how it came to be. Did it really originate with Chad or did it. Does his love have origins, you know, in Europe, in France, where he trained well.
- [07:06]
Jessica Batalana
And I should, you know, in full disclosure, I worked, you know, for a long time. I was just a fan of Tartine. Crazy fan. And then I ended up working with chad on his third book, Tartine Book 3, which is sort of, you know, like, I should back up for a second and say, the other thing that's interesting is that when Tartine Bread was published, that book. Talk about giving away the farm. I mean, Chad explains in crazy detail just every element of how he makes that bread, starting with the starter and all the way to the finished loaf. And he basically handed over the keys to the castle. So it's. He was very. Eyes wide open in, like, I'm sharing this method. And, you know, this method is going to influence people. And what was interesting about that first book is that they had regular people testing, which is always a great thing to do in any cookbook, and people rarely do it. But people who had never baked a loaf of bread before, you know, were brought on as testers. So it was like somebody who played music in the cafe who was sort of curious about it. And so he really developed this method with home bakers in mind, like, how can you get a loaf of bread like this at home? And just had enormous success with that. So, you know, building off of that book, he went on to write this Tartine Book three, which sort of then pushed the envelope. It was like, breads that have, like, more inclusions, have soaked grains, have sprouted grains have, you know, I wouldn't say unusual flours, but, you know, outside of just like, white flour, whole wheat flour.
- [08:40]
David Tamarkin
And you worked on that book with.
- [08:41]
Jessica Batalana
And I worked on that book with Chad. And why was I talking about that? Just to brag that, like, Chad and I are best friends.
- [08:47]
David Tamarkin
Well, you know, what you speak.
- [08:49]
Jessica Batalana
Well, just. No, to say that. I think Chad would be the first one to say he did not invent this spread. I mean, I think he manipulated the method, but, you know, I mean, he had mentors that he is, you know, very open to crediting. And I think, yes, this, like, what he pulled from was, like, a European tradition and then, like, tweaked it, you know, to his own schedule, to his own taste preferences. And I do recall, like, I talked to Chad not too long ago, and he was like, when I started trying to sell, like, an $8 loaf of this, like, bread that basically looked burned, he was like, people were like, what is this guy doing?
- [09:33]
Interviewer/Host
Like, why would I.
- [09:34]
Jessica Batalana
You know, So I think it's funny
- [09:35]
Interviewer/Host
just to see now, like, on the other side of it.
- [09:37]
David Tamarkin
Yeah, so we can blame Chad for $20 loaves of bread mouth.
- [09:40]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah, exactly.
- [09:42]
David Tamarkin
But it. It is interesting to think about the origins of this Tartine loaf, you know, and, like, you said, he wouldn't say he invented it. He trained in Europe, but everything's circular. Right. I mean, I remember interviewing Dan Leader, who, James Baker and guy who started Bread Alone in upstate New York, has lots of books. And he was researching one of his books, traveling to, you know, all these small bakeries in Italy, France, Spain, all around Europe, even in Asia, I think. And he. What he told me was that in every single bakery, no matter how small the town, how small the bakery where it was in the mountains of the Alps, wherever he saw copies of tartine bread on every single shelf, I mean, the influence cannot be overstated. And that's fascinating, Right? I mean, the same places that trained Chad are now taking some notes from him.
- [10:42]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah. And in the Bay Area, there's a lot of chatter about the Chez Panisse diaspora. The cooks that worked at Chez Panisse for a period of time. I worked as a reservationist at Chez Panisse for a year, which was, like,
- [10:54]
Interviewer/Host
I describe it as the worst job
- [10:56]
Jessica Batalana
in the best place. But that's a story for another time. I mean, you try taking calls of people looking for a table at 7pm
- [11:03]
Interviewer/Host
on a Saturday, just like, no, no, no.
- [11:05]
David Tamarkin
They're breaking hearts.
- [11:07]
Interviewer/Host
Exactly.
- [11:08]
Jessica Batalana
But they talk about the cooks that left Chez Panisse to open their own restaurants and, like, you know, that web of food people that, you know, went across the country.
- [11:17]
David Tamarkin
5. Just off the top of my head. David Tanis.
- [11:19]
Jessica Batalana
Exactly. And then the same is true, I think, of this diaspora of bakers that trained at Tartine, then went on to open bakeries, like, around the country or, like, run the bread programs at established restaurants, you know, and they took that. That sort of tartine method, that tartine ethos with them. So, you see, it kind of spreads like, you know, wildfire. And I think, like, that's why you have good bread in really random places now that weren't, you know, it used to be, like, you can get good bread in New York, you can get good bread in San Francisco. But, like, now, in lots of small towns where people have trained up at tartine, they've gone to open bakeries that are awesome.
- [11:58]
David Tamarkin
Yeah.
- [11:59]
Jessica Batalana
And we have Chad to thank. I mean, we have Tartine to thank, I think.
- [12:02]
David Tamarkin
And I think you're gonna thank him in person on this episode.
- [12:04]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah, I was thrilled because I hadn't had a chance to talk to Chad in a long time. And I told him I wanted, you know, we wanted to do this episode, and did he wanna talk to us. So it's a fun chat.
- [12:16]
David Tamarkin
I cannot Wait to hear this conversation.
- [12:20]
Interviewer/Host
Chad, it's such a treat to get to talk to you again. It has been a while. It has been a while.
- [12:26]
Chad Robertson
Such a treat. Such a treat for me as well.
- [12:28]
Interviewer/Host
I. You are a household name amongst bakers now. But for those who don't know as much about your background, just tell us
- [12:34]
Jessica Batalana
a little bit about how you sort
- [12:35]
Interviewer/Host
of got started with baking, what your influences were, and then how you came to open that original tartine.
- [12:41]
Chad Robertson
Yeah. So I was at the Culinary Institute in Hyde Park, New York, studying to be a chef and cooking, and then I just. Well, it was like. It was. One of my instructors was telling our class about this guy, this crazy baker, making really incredible bread like no one was making anywhere. And it was Richard Wardon, and it was maybe an hour and a half from the school, and so we sort of went there on a weekend to check it out. And I literally. I was very young, and this guy was totally. You know, he was like the coolest guy. Just, you know, he has babies on his back and his razor blade cutting the bread. And it was in a big brick barn with the Housatonic river running behind it. And it was all very new to me because I'm. I was born in Texas, and that was, like, my first time on the East Coast. And I literally asked for a job that day on the field trip, and one of the bakers took me outside. He was having a smoke break, and he was like, when. When do you want to start? Like, now. And I was like, I need to figure it out. He's like, I want to go do something else. I've been there for years. He was like a gypsy baker, this really great baker. But anyway, Richard is still a very good friend. I saw him last week, and just. Amazing baker still works every day. He was like, I can't pay you until you're useful, but I have a room for you in my house. And that sounded totally reasonable to me.
- [14:10]
David Tamarkin
Yeah.
- [14:11]
Interviewer/Host
I mean, you were at 19 years old. It is reasonable.
- [14:14]
Chad Robertson
Yeah. I was still in school, so, you know, I switched to night classes so I could go work. And so I just got up to, like, three in the morning, drove there. I was so obsessed. I was dreaming about bread.
- [14:25]
Caller 1
Wow.
- [14:26]
Chad Robertson
I hardly slept, but it just didn't matter. I just so obsessed with bread, so I'd never taste. I mean, that was the first time I tasted sourdough when I was, like, 20.
- [14:35]
Jessica Batalana
Wow.
- [14:35]
Chad Robertson
In my life. So. And, you know, a lot of people hadn't had that kind of bread really, at that time. He's Quebecois, but then he worked a lot in Denmark and Belgium and all over Europe in France. So, yeah, I ended up finishing school and then worked for Richard for a couple of years. And then he kind of told me to leave and go learn from someone else. And I didn't want to leave, but it was, it was good advice. I said, okay, I'll leave. I want to go learn from the guy that taught you. And he always talked about this guy, Patrick Laporte. And he was in Savoie at the time. He's in Brittany now. But so I ended up going to France and working with Patrick for half a year. And then Patrick's best friend, who had a bakery in the south of France, his name was Daniel Colin. And both of these guys were just incredible bakers. And I remember I wrote a letter from France to Craig Paunsford, who had just won like the coup de mond. This was 90s, maybe mid-90s. And I was like, hey, I've been in France working for a year. I want to work for the best baker in America. And I got no response at all. So I came home, I came back. I was very frustrated, but I wrote a letter to this guy, Alan Scott, who is no longer with us, but rest in peace. Just such an incredible human being. Tasmanian man. And he was living in Marin and West Marin and building these wood fired ovens around the country. And he had a deal where you could come and stay, live in a farmhouse if you helped do chores and all that.
- [16:15]
Interviewer/Host
I see a pattern evolving here.
- [16:17]
Chad Robertson
Yeah, I'm kind of like no money,
- [16:19]
Interviewer/Host
no money, maybe a place to sleep.
- [16:21]
Chad Robertson
Yeah, it hasn't really changed that much, but I'm used to it now. And so I was. And there was a stone mill, and so I was milling flour and then the oven was in the backyard. And then Belinas let me sell the bread, which was backyard illegal bread, but at the people's store, which is still there. That was my first bread account. And I do want to say also Alan loaned me the money to start the first bakery, which was in Point Reyes, which was just down the road from Marshall, where Alan was. And he gave me forever to pay it back to him because I didn't have any money. And the people that built our oven were all students of ccac, which was cca, which I think closed, but it
- [17:05]
Jessica Batalana
was California College of the Arts.
- [17:09]
Chad Robertson
It was California College of the Arts and Crafts, which I thought was such a cool name and they dropped that. But anyway, it was just, it was a beautiful Thing. And, yeah, it was a lot of fun baking there.
- [17:20]
Interviewer/Host
And then you transitioned from baking in Point Reyes to the spot in Tartine, which opened in 2002.
- [17:29]
Chad Robertson
Yeah, there was a little. There was a little jump into Mill Valley. That was a short chapter, but it was. It was interesting. We were getting closer to the city. It was kind of impossible to go into San Francisco. That was during the first dot com bubble, if anyone remembers that.
- [17:44]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah.
- [17:44]
Chad Robertson
And there was just, you know, rent was crazy. There was no. There was no vacancy. Yeah. But then right after the bubble burst literally came in. I remember I was having dinner with the co founder, my ex, Liz Pruitt. We were eating at Delfina, which was just this little hole in the wall neighborhood restaurant that everyone loved. And we were walking back to our car, and it was on that corner, there was a bakery called Lady Baltimore as a cake bakery. And there was one gentleman there that looked kind of lonely and sad. And Liz was like, you go get the car. I'm going to go in and ask this guy if he would sell. And I was like, that's crazy. And when I came back to get her, he was like. She was like, here's his number. He wants to talk. And so we had the place. He wanted to retire. So.
- [18:32]
David Tamarkin
Wow.
- [18:33]
Chad Robertson
That's kind of how that happened.
- [18:34]
Interviewer/Host
I think you are probably. I mean, the Tartine Bakery. Liz Pruitt, your former partner, did the pastry side. You did the bread side. But, I mean, it's hard now because it's been, you know, 24 years. It's sort of hard to remember what the bakery scene was like back then. What the bread scene was like back then. But, I mean, I think you quickly became known for this Tartine Country Loaf.
- [19:06]
Chad Robertson
Right.
- [19:06]
Interviewer/Host
Like, the Tartine Country Loaf became like, you know, one of the signature, you know, products of the bakery, in addition to, you know, some of the pastries. So I want to. I want you to talk a little bit about that, like, what you set out to make and whether you felt like that was like the Tartine Country Loaf was something sort of, like, new. Like, did you invent a style of bread? Or do you feel like you were sort of like, tying these threads together from the people you'd worked with and the breads you tried?
- [19:36]
Chad Robertson
Yeah, I mean, I was definitely influenced by the people I worked for. I had a lot of influences that weren't really mainstream French or European baking, because I sort of worked for, like, French hippies, which was. That was really fun and amazing. And so, yeah, when I came and also it's like Acme does a perfect, you know, French baguette. And, and all their breads are very classic, I think, for the most part, and very well done. And you know, they, they kind of have that covered.
- [20:07]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah.
- [20:07]
Chad Robertson
And so I, I mean I don't say the, like the country bread I made, it wasn't like a totally new bread, but it was definitely an expression of my favorite qualities from the four. I have like four teachers. Richard, Patrick, Danielle, and then Dave Miller, who also worked for Richard and is up in Chico and he mills everything fresh, 100% whole grain, really wet doughs. Totally. All their breads are totally different, but I love them all and I kind of took the parts that I liked most about each one and tried to put them all into that country loaf.
- [20:40]
Interviewer/Host
And for people who haven't had the country tree loaf, I mean it's so, it's, it's, it is sort of wild to think about now because I think there are so many. And we'll talk about this in a little bit. Like there's a lot of country loaf esque bread out there now. Like, I think when you say to a person now like, I'm gonna buy a loaf of sourdough bread, what they think of is something that resembles the country loaf. So just would you describe like the qualities of that loaf for people that haven't had it?
- [21:10]
Chad Robertson
Yeah, I mean, you know, we bake. I see a lot of people bake a lot darker than we, than we do now. But at the time people considered our bread pretty caramelized, pretty dark. And I guess the main, the way I would describe it is, you know, open, sort of custardy crumb, a pretty extreme like contrast between the crust and the crumb. Long slow rise, which now is pretty common. Thankfully it makes it more digestible. It makes it keep longer high hydration, like I said before. Yeah, I mean not too sour. Kind of depends. Sometimes you go a little too sour when, when San Francisco would get really hot for three, three weeks of the year. It's hard to keep it, hard to keep it the way I want. But you know, it's funny, like looking back, I feel like what the tartine country loaf, it kind of came to be like very much like an old school San Francisco sourdough, like a bordenaise or you know, like extra dark, extra sour. Like again, we're not really going for extra sour, but I see pictures of like these bakeries from the, you know, early 1900s in San Francisco and, and I feel like the country Loaf is kind of a modern version of all that, even though I wasn't trying to do that. So it ended up being that. And I. I've always said, like, you know, when people say, what. Why does San Francisco is such. Famous for bread? And I'm like, the weather, honestly, is the biggest factor because it's almost always, like, good sourdough weather in San Francisco.
- [22:38]
Jessica Batalana
That's interesting.
- [22:38]
Interviewer/Host
Y. I mean, it's like, you know, people are always talking about, like, it's
- [22:41]
Jessica Batalana
the water, it's the. But I think that's true.
- [22:43]
Interviewer/Host
Like, it's never too hot, it's never too cold. And we talk a lot about, like, you know, sort of coddling your. Your sourdough dough, right? Like, maintaining the temperature, like, paying attention to it through the whole. But I mean, that's where San Francisco excels at sort of being, like, consistent, you know, really, for month to month. And you. I mean, part of that long fermentation, obviously, was because you liked the flavor and, you know, the. The, you know, the texture of these long, fermented breads. But part of it. I mean, I made the joke earlier about surfer spread. Like, you like to surf, and you wanted to make a bread schedule that sort of fit a little bit better with your life schedule. You had a young child, like.
- [23:23]
Chad Robertson
And so I love the surf story, but.
- [23:25]
David Tamarkin
Yeah,
- [23:28]
Chad Robertson
I'll give you the real version. It is related to surfing, but, like, the. The long rise. And the long rise led to a. So the long rise was because I needed to sleep at some point. I was just.
- [23:42]
Jessica Batalana
You?
- [23:42]
Chad Robertson
Yeah, just me. I had no. No mixer, no retarder. So nothing to cool the bread down.
- [23:49]
Interviewer/Host
This is when you're in point raise.
- [23:51]
Chad Robertson
Yes.
- [23:51]
David Tamarkin
Yeah. Yeah.
- [23:52]
Chad Robertson
For six years. Six or seven years. And. And, you know, chopping wood every day, which I love. I still love it. And then, like, I would. Yeah, I was sleeping in shifts. It was like four hours or three hours, and then another four hours whenever I could get it. And.
- [24:07]
Jessica Batalana
And that's great.
- [24:08]
Chad Robertson
I. That would. I wouldn't survive now doing that at all. Not even close. But it definitely took a toll. But. But I was making it happen. But then during the winter, I was like, man, maybe I can open these windows and, like, it'll cool down enough. And it did. It would, you know, cool down to, like, 45, 50, and that would give me, like, you know, a solid seven hours or something.
- [24:31]
Interviewer/Host
Okay.
- [24:32]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah.
- [24:32]
Chad Robertson
But initially the bread was too sour when I did that. So then I. Then, I mean, that long rise was. Was necessitated by me needing sleep. And then the long rise sort of forced me to, to develop a very young Lavan, a young starter kind of style. Because if I used like a mature starter, which was the, the, you know, most traditional way and common way that people were using them that long after that long rise at that tem, which is all I could do with opening the windows, would give me two sour of a final flavor. So I would start with a very not sour, very young, very lactic, hardly any acid at all. By the end, it would have the acid level that I wanted.
- [25:16]
Interviewer/Host
So my surfing story is a myth busted. But it's so romantic.
- [25:20]
Chad Robertson
No, but I love that story because when Eric and I start, Eric is a good friend, Wolfinger, who, who photographed the book and made that whole first book, you know, together. He lived upstairs and we were just literally surfing, making bread, doing recipes, shooting the book for a whole year and, and main basically, like also in the beginning at Tartine, the pastries were all. Everything was baked in one in the bread oven, which is kind of how we train in France. And I thought that was cool. It's not very practical. We don't do that anymore. But it would take like two or three hours for the oven to come up to the bread temp after the pastry. So that was why the bread came out in the afternoon and that was why we surfed in the morning. And that was sort of the trade off. So it is true. There's a little more, There's a little more.
- [26:11]
Interviewer/Host
There's a little more nuance to it. Yeah, that's interesting. I was thinking too, I mean, in full disclosure, you know, you and I worked together on your Tartine book three, which came out, gosh, I don't know, 10 or 11, 12, 13 years ago.
- [26:27]
Chad Robertson
13. I think it was right after, right after the three years after the first book.
- [26:31]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, you know, I was sort of able to see up close like a little bit of your evolution of your bread baking process. You know, as you sort of shifted towards using, you know, more ancient grains, more sprouted grains, like playing around with the idea of, you know, porridge breads and, you know, sort of other innovations. But I mean, I was sort of reflecting on that like that was, was 13 years ago. So like, you know, what sort of journey have you been on since then? Like, what gets you fired up when you think about bread baking now?
- [27:04]
Chad Robertson
Yeah, I mean, a couple of things. Like the last few years I've, I've been traveling and working with other bakers like in, in South America and Mexico and just using like Spain, like using totally different flours because they're, they're the other thing that, you know, there's a lot more awareness now about, about different types of wheat, different types of grains and, and all the bread stuff, of course, and fermentation. That gets me really fired up. Yeah, like learning. Because I will say, like, when I started baking, there were lots of sort of rules that you would read. There were only a few books out there in English that, and there were very specific rules that, that sort of the authorities on bread sort of put out there in the 90s. And pretty much all of those have proved to not be true. And I'm not saying like any these people were proved wrong, but I'm just saying, like, actually when while I'm working, I'm like, wow, I was told this in this book and this is not.
- [28:02]
Interviewer/Host
And it's not bearing out when you're baking. That's interesting. Our colleague Martin Phillip likes to say, you know, that bread has no horizon line, like, but you're always kind of chasing the sun. And I mean, that's true. And that's what makes it.
- [28:16]
Jessica Batalana
It.
- [28:16]
Chad Robertson
That's a very good quote.
- [28:17]
Interviewer/Host
It makes it so fun. And I think you have done so much for home bakers. Just like, you know, things that were, that people were not doing 25 years ago, like now are sort of commonplace.
- [28:30]
Chad Robertson
So it's a. I appreciate that and I love seeing it. I love seeing it. It's like I said, I get, I get more inspiration from it. It's just, it's really wonderful.
- [28:39]
Jessica Batalana
You're the best.
- [28:40]
Interviewer/Host
Chad, thanks for joining us.
- [28:42]
Chad Robertson
Thank you, Jess. So, so nice to talk.
- [28:48]
Jessica Batalana
This episode is brought to you by Brod and Taylor. Brod and Taylor is an independent family owned company that builds tools for all bread bakers at every level to transform complex baking challenges into simple pleasures.
- [29:01]
David Tamarkin
I love Brod and Taylor. I mean, they are so passionate about bread and baking. When I talk to those folks, it really feels like I'm talking to someone at King Arthur too. There's that synergy there because we only have one thing on our minds. It's baking. Baking, baking.
- [29:14]
Jessica Batalana
I love their tools really, truly are an asset for every home baker. And you and I both have quite a few of them in our own kitchens. You know, my favorite I think is the countertop proofer. I don't know you're into the baking steel, but they have a lot of great tools.
- [29:31]
David Tamarkin
I love a baking steel.
- [29:32]
Jessica Batalana
Whether you're a first time baker or you're like in deep like us, there's something for you at broadandtaylor.com that's B R O-A N-T-A-Y-L-O-R.com this episode is brought to you by our Sourdough Starter. If this conversation has you ready to hit the kitchen but you don't want to make your own starter, which, I mean, you should try because it's a fun exercise. But if you don't want to, you can order ready made fresh starter directly from us. Place an order on our website and we'll send you an adorable little jar of starter from the King Arthur Bakery. Couldn't be easier. You can make Chad's classic tartine loaf for any of the amazing sourdough recipes on our website or in in the Big Book of Bread. You can find Sourdough starter by searching sourdough starter on our shop site@KingarthurBaking.com yeah. Well, it's time for our next segment. Ask the Bakers for Ask the Bakers. We want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com podcast to record a voice message and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com podcast.
- [30:42]
David Tamarkin
And of course, if you have a baking question that simply can't wait, you can always reach out to our baker's hotline via phone, email or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com Bakers Hotline. That's Bakers Hotline. Or call us at 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake.
- [31:03]
Jessica Batalana
You know, probably on balance, we have gotten the most listener questions over the course the of, of all of these seasons about sourdough bread. Yeah, people have a lot of questions. Yeah, we have a few answers.
- [31:17]
David Tamarkin
A lot of questions. We have.
- [31:18]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah, we've some of the same questions, you know, more than once. So we picked, you know, we picked some of the most commonly asked questions and we're gonna take a stab at answering them. So let's hear our first one.
- [31:34]
Caller 2
Hi, this is Carla Lally calling. I recently asked my audience on food processing, my newsletter on substack, a burning question about sourdough starter. Why do people lie about how sensitive it is? For the past two years, I've stuck mine in the fridge for 10 months at a time. I never feed it and it's fine. Two days of feeding and we're back in business. All these stories about people who take their starters on vacation or feed their starter year round, even though they really only bake in the fall and winter. Why are people so histrionic about this? I thought I'd call and get your take. Thanks.
- [32:16]
Interviewer/Host
Bye.
- [32:18]
David Tamarkin
I don't know about you, but when Carla Lally put this on her sub stack, I got millions of people sending it to me. You know, like, did you see this? Did you see this? Yes, I saw it. So I'm so glad she called in tantra. I have a lot of thoughts on this. Yes. Personally, first of all, Carla, great. Follow her substack. If you're not, you know, following food processing, definitely get in there.
- [32:40]
Jessica Batalana
She has a new book coming out, new cookbook coming out.
- [32:43]
David Tamarkin
Yeah. Food is a feeling. And her feeling is. Yeah, she's got a lot of feelings.
- [32:47]
Jessica Batalana
You know, she should be a guest
- [32:49]
David Tamarkin
or a lot of thoughts.
- [32:50]
Jessica Batalana
We also have a lot of thoughts and feelings.
- [32:53]
David Tamarkin
So it's. I love that she uses the word histrionic. One of my favorite words to describe especially food people sometimes, and it's true, there is a lot of chatter sometimes about sourdough starters and how,
- [33:07]
Jessica Batalana
I would
- [33:07]
David Tamarkin
say obsessive, sometimes people can get about feeding them. I think there are a few things going on here. First of all, let's just bust a myth right away. You can keep your sourdough starter in the fridge for a long time. They are very hard to kill. I've pulled starters out. I think I've mentioned on the show I have about five or six starters in my fridge of various ages. I have pulled out starters that are. I mean, they look like. They look like biological disasters. I mean, they're almost solid at the bottom and there's a really big layer of black hooch on top.
- [33:45]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah.
- [33:46]
David Tamarkin
I just pour it out, dig out a little bit, feed it. And it's true. It does. It does revive.
- [33:51]
Jessica Batalana
It does revive.
- [33:53]
David Tamarkin
And I remember when I started here at King Arthur, I was so inspired by a recipe on our website for panda campagna, which was positioned almost exclusively at that time as a bread you could make with discard without having to feed your sourdough starter.
- [34:11]
Jessica Batalana
Yes.
- [34:11]
David Tamarkin
What's interesting is that that recipe is on the Big Book of Bread, and we positioned it much differently. We advised that you feed your starter.
- [34:19]
Jessica Batalana
Yes.
- [34:20]
David Tamarkin
Which was a decision that you and Marty. I'm putting you on the spot.
- [34:23]
Jessica Batalana
Now.
- [34:23]
David Tamarkin
I don't think you know what it says, but it's interesting to talk about why we did that, because I think that answers this question about why we talk about feeding starters.
- [34:30]
Jessica Batalana
Yes.
- [34:30]
David Tamarkin
Even Though you don't have to. It's a good idea to do it.
- [34:34]
Jessica Batalana
Right. So if you are keeping, I mean, some of this, we're, we're retreading old territory. If you're keeping your starter at room temperature, you've got to feed it, you have to feed it every day. Like, you know, getting around that. If you're not baking all the time. Yes. You can put it in your fridge. And what we advise best practice is to feed it, like, take it out of the fridge, feed it like once a week, let it sit at room temperature for a couple of hours, put it back in the fridge. Yep. Can you go longer? Definitely. You can go longer. I would say, you know, there is a difference. And, and Martin is very like makes this distinction. There's a difference between, you know, starter that will work. I'm using air quotes like that, you know, like, work will cause your dough to rise and starter that's at optimal health.
- [35:27]
David Tamarkin
Absolutely.
- [35:29]
Jessica Batalana
And the only way you can really, like, you would really be able to see that is to do like a side by side comparison. Like, and I don't doubt that like Carla takes her starter out of the fridge, she gives it a couple of feeds at room temperature and it works fine. It raises, you know, it raises a loaf of bread. Right.
- [35:48]
David Tamarkin
I think what's key is she said two days.
- [35:50]
Jessica Batalana
Two days.
- [35:50]
David Tamarkin
And that's true. Like, and that could be two feedings a day.
- [35:53]
Jessica Batalana
Sure, let's try that. Like take it out of, you know, the fridge, give it two or four feeds, bake a loaf of bread with it, see, but then like keep it on the, keep it on your counter, feed it every day and then bake that same loaf of bread, you know, a week later after daily feedings and just see, because my guess would be that, you know, after you give your starter a little more TLC at room temperature, it's just going to be like more vivacious and less, also notably less acidic. Because I think that, you know, I'm not expecting like a regular person goes to get a PH monitor. I mean, you could if you're like super curious. But you know, as you give your starter more feedings, it's going to become less acidic. A less acidic starter I think performs better, you know, so the only way to really know would be to do like a side by side test. But I think, you know, I think that Carla is right that do you need to take your starter on vacation? Definitely not. Like, do you need to have somebody come to your house? Like, you know, it's Not a pet pet. Like, people are like, it's a pet. It's not a pet.
- [36:56]
David Tamarkin
It's absolutely true. I can. I can. I am living proof. Well, I've done. I've done this in my house. I have been converted from someone who kept his starter in the fridge for months at a time, pulled it out, revived it, made bread with it, and someone who lives in a house now with a regularly fed starter. I'm not the one feeding it, but I. But I have access to it. And it is. The difference is palpable. It is a stronger starter. It gives you a better rise. It gives you better bread. The difference is not that big of a deal. And so you can definitely get great bread out of neglected starter. Carla, thank you for keeping this discourse alive and calling in.
- [37:33]
Jessica Batalana
Let's go to our next question.
- [37:36]
Caller 1
Hi there. I can't believe I finally found this podcast.
- [37:39]
Jessica Batalana
Oh, my God.
- [37:40]
Caller 1
My dreams come true, period. So I have been making sourdough for, you know, like Everybody else since 2020, and I have made hundreds of of loaves, and I paid very detailed attention to the workflow on it, the timing, etc. Etc. But now I find myself getting kind of used to some shortcuts. So, for instance, my questions are levain or no levain? What is the benefit? Also auto leasing or just throwing that salt in with the starter and flour and water. Right away, period. Yeah. Love to hear your thoughts. Thanks.
- [38:27]
David Tamarkin
Well, these are two enormous questions that we could build entire episodes around, and we probably will, because this is our most, you know, our most appreciative listener.
- [38:35]
Jessica Batalana
Her dreams came true and also a topic that people can talk about endlessly. I mean, truly. And so many nuances to it. Okay, well, let's just do our best to peel the onion. Okay.
- [38:47]
David Tamarkin
Start with levain, I guess.
- [38:48]
Jessica Batalana
Okay.
- [38:48]
David Tamarkin
To me, this is a really interesting question. It sort of speaks to what our understanding of levain is.
- [38:59]
Jessica Batalana
So tell people. Tell listeners what levain is.
- [39:01]
David Tamarkin
Levain or lavaine?
- [39:02]
Jessica Batalana
Lavaine.
- [39:03]
David Tamarkin
I mean. I mean, God knows I'm not the one to decide. It's a pre ferment. A pre ferment is just a small amount of culture or starter flour and water that is mixed before you incorporate the rest of the flour and water
- [39:19]
Jessica Batalana
into the dough, usually about 12 hours ahead.
- [39:22]
David Tamarkin
Yeah. And you mix it. You mix it ahead of time. You give it, like a head start, and it really is there to, you know, start fermenting, start the fermentation process, start the hydration process, and it builds a lot of flavor that then when you incorporate it into the larger batch of dough, is distributed through the dough.
- [39:38]
Jessica Batalana
What does Martin always say? It's a bouillon cube of flavor.
- [39:40]
David Tamarkin
Yeah. That's, I think, is a way to think about it. Yeah.
- [39:44]
Jessica Batalana
It's also nice because that process of making a pre ferment is essentially like giving your culture, your sourdough starter, like an additional feed. Right. So, you know, say you're feeding your
- [39:58]
Interviewer/Host
starter once a day and it's like,
- [40:00]
Jessica Batalana
okay, it's time to feed my starter. Well, like you can make that pre ferment and, you know, juice up your starter that way. So it helps to build the strength at the starter also.
- [40:08]
David Tamarkin
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The question of levain or no lavaine, levain or no levain is interesting to me because to me it seems it's just very specific to the recipe. Some bread recipes have it, some bread recipes don't. To me, it's not a, it's not something that I would throw into any bread recipe that doesn't have it already.
- [40:31]
Jessica Batalana
I suppose you could, you could, you could.
- [40:33]
David Tamarkin
But I wouldn't mind. I personally wouldn't mess with the formula that way because I trust that the formula was written to work without it.
- [40:41]
Jessica Batalana
Right. And if you were going to do that, I mean, because you could say you were like, I want to add a pre ferment to this, then you would, that's fine to do, but you have to make sure that you account for the amount of flour and the amount of water that you're putting in the pre ferment in the total quantity
- [40:57]
Interviewer/Host
of flour and water in the recipe.
- [40:58]
David Tamarkin
You have to accurately subtract it.
- [41:00]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah. Otherwise math is not my strong suit
- [41:02]
David Tamarkin
because otherwise you're going to have too
- [41:03]
Jessica Batalana
much flour, too much water. Yeah, yeah. Now to the autoleaf question, because this is a two parter, real doozy of a question, but since she's a true fan, I'm going to answer both parts of the question. So we thought and talked a lot about Autolyse when we were writing the Big Book of Bread. So Autolyse, for listeners who don't know, is you combine some of the flour and some of the water in a recipe and you just let it sit for about 30 minutes and then you add the salt and the starter. The reason that some bakers like to do that is that it pre hydrates a portion of the flour and it helps with the extensibility of the dough. So, like how stretchy it is. I think if you are making the conclusion that we drew after doing some, you know, considerable testing and thinking about it is that we think that that process is probably more vital in a larger bakery setting when you're making, like, more loaves of bread. Bread. And then we didn't find that it made a huge difference when you're making a loaf or two. And what is the risk of it is that you forget to add those things.
- [42:14]
David Tamarkin
You forget to add the salt to the bigger batch.
- [42:16]
Jessica Batalana
Exactly.
- [42:17]
David Tamarkin
Which, in which case, game over.
- [42:18]
Jessica Batalana
Game over.
- [42:19]
David Tamarkin
Because there is nothing, sorry to Tuscany, but there is nothing worse than unsalted bread.
- [42:24]
Jessica Batalana
It's terrible.
- [42:25]
David Tamarkin
It is just foul.
- [42:26]
Jessica Batalana
It's terrible. In our testing, what we determined and the compromise that we settled on is something that we call Autolyse light. So we actually mix everything together. So flour, water, starter, salt. But then in some of the recipes, we do build in a rest period. And that rest period is helpful because, yes, salt has some impact on extensibility, but we found that it wasn't a huge difference. And that benefit from resting did allow the, you know, the flour to hydrate. It did make it a little stretchier,
- [42:57]
Interviewer/Host
easier to work with.
- [42:59]
Jessica Batalana
So that's where we sort of settled. So there are some recipes in the Big Book of Bread that use this Autolyse Light, which is basically like, mix everything together but then let it rest. And it's not a true autolyse, because the starter and salt would be omitted in a true autolyse.
- [43:13]
David Tamarkin
It's a salt elyse.
- [43:14]
Jessica Batalana
It's a salt elyse. Yes, exactly. And I think it gets some of the benefits of an autolyse without the risk of, like, oh, you've forgotten to add things. And also, like, without drawing out the process even more, because sometimes the autolyse is like, let it sit for an hour and then, you know, start with your recipe.
- [43:31]
David Tamarkin
Yeah.
- [43:32]
Jessica Batalana
And, you know, I know there are die hards out there who are listening to this that are like, I always auto lease, like, you fool. And that's fine. Like, I think if that's what you want to do, like, it's not going to hurt. And in some cases it will help. Like, I do think autolyse can be useful in, like, doughs that have, like, a higher percentage of whole grain flour, because those benefit from, like, the extra hydration time and you want that extra extensibility that's, like, not inherent to the flour, you know, or if you're making a bread dough that has high gluten flour in it, like, then I think an autolyse might be indicated more than, you know, it would in other cases. But I don't think there's, like, you know, there's no hard and fast rule about it. Yeah, thank God.
- [44:15]
David Tamarkin
So.
- [44:16]
Jessica Batalana
Because I hate rules.
- [44:17]
David Tamarkin
So we are a little oddly skeptical when it comes to small batches of bread for the home baker. But if you want to do it, go for it.
- [44:25]
Caller 1
Yeah.
- [44:26]
Jessica Batalana
Let's go to our next question.
- [44:29]
Caller 1
Good evening. I'm calling to find out if you have any ideas for making my sourdough bread or sourdough yeast a bit more pungent. Because I would like it to taste even more sour. And I'm not sure how to go about that. If you have any ideas, I would certainly be open to them. Thank you again. Good night.
- [44:55]
Jessica Batalana
Oh, hi, Kira.
- [44:56]
David Tamarkin
Very cute, Kira. So Kira obviously has not done tequila shots in her life. This is a very simple way to do this. All you do is you. You cut a slice of sourdough, you cut a slice of lime, suck on the line, eat the bite of sourdough. It works wonders. Sour as heck.
- [45:15]
Jessica Batalana
This is a question we get a lot because I think it's interesting, sometimes people will eat, you know, a piece of sourdough bread, and they're like, it doesn't taste very sour. And, you know, that sort of tanginess that you get in some sourdough bread is not necessarily a hallmark of sourdough bread. And that's why these, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, I don't like sourdough bread. Too tangy. And you're like, well, not necessarily. So you can taste it.
- [45:37]
David Tamarkin
They've been raised on San Francisco sourdough.
- [45:38]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah, well, yeah. And we've talked about the San Francisco sourdough and how some of those commercial loaves actually have. Have citric acid added to them to make them tangier. So, I mean, you could do that. Would I recommend doing that? Definitely not. Because I don't think that gives you the best results. There are things that you can manipulate to get a more sour bread, and I think chief among them is giving your bread, like, long, cold fermentation. So the longer it sits in bulk fermentation in a cold environment, the more sour it's going to become.
- [46:11]
Chad Robertson
Mm.
- [46:11]
David Tamarkin
Yeah. And so we mentioned earlier the recipe for classic pon de la vin in the Big Book of Bread. We also have recipes like that on the site. And this is an interesting recipe to talk about in terms of sourness, because that recipe gives you an option. You have a pre ferment, which is going to give you lots of flavor. You let that go overnight, you shape, you know, you do the bigger mix, bulk sheep. And you can bake immediately the next day, or you can give it a cold retard in the fridge. And that's when you're gonna make the difference between a loaf that has a lot of flavor and a loaf that's gonna have even more flavor and even more sourness to it.
- [46:54]
Jessica Batalana
And you can even go longer. I mean, there is a threshold at which, like, your dough loses strength and, you know, becomes sort of flabby and, you know, won't rise as well. But you can push that cold fermentation for quite a long time. And I've accidentally done it, you know, like when we were doing testing Big Book of Bread. Like, I would find dough and like, oh, it's like a very particular problem. I know, but I would like, forget about doughs. And then you're like, well, I might as well just bake it and see what happens. And yeah, the ones that sat around longer, it just got tangier and tangier. So that is what I would recommend. If you have a recipe that you love, rather than just like, you know, baking it immediately, take that dough, you know, in shaped and spanaton, cover it, tuck in the fridge overnight, and then bake it the next morning and you'll see, I mean, or the next evening even, and you'll see a difference in the flavor.
- [47:41]
David Tamarkin
And that is a trick you can apply to a recipe that may not necessarily have it. You could experiment with that. Right. I mean, so we, we. I was talking a little bit earlier about how I wouldn't necessarily. Just me personally, I wouldn't add a pre ferment to a recipe that doesn't call for it. That's just me. Yeah, but I would. Again, talking about me, I would experiment with holding a loaf in a cold environment overnight to experiment with. I think that's pretty low risk.
- [48:08]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah, it's low risk. And it's. I mean, the, the refrigeration slows fermentation, slows fermentation down so much like to a crawl. Right. And so you don't really have to worry about like over proofing your bread in that time. If you left on the counter, like, you would have to worry about it. But in the fridge, it's just like at a snail's pace. So I think it's. It is pretty low risk.
- [48:31]
David Tamarkin
So in this scenario where you've taken a loaf and you know, you've, you know, stuck it in the fridge for 12 hours more than the recipe says, would you let it warm up for an hour before you put it in the oven. Would you take it out while your oven preheats or would you go do it straight from it?
- [48:48]
Jessica Batalana
Sort of depends. I mean, I would probably just evaluate the dough when it comes out. Like, you know, and we, we talk a lot about what you're looking for. Like, I sort of would like wiggle the banneton and like, it should look marshmallowy and it should be bubbly. And, you know, I think sometimes you can just tell by looking at it.
- [49:03]
David Tamarkin
Yeah.
- [49:03]
Jessica Batalana
That it's ready to go. And sometimes it also depend on how far you have pushed the first fermentation
- [49:08]
David Tamarkin
right before you put it in the fridge.
- [49:10]
Jessica Batalana
Before you put it in the fridge. So if you feel like, oh, I've gone to maximal fermentation there, which frankly most home bakers don't do, so then you might just take it straight out of the. It's also, I will say, just I find it easier to score a cold from the fridge loaf of bread to get like a nice score that will help the loaf release in the oven. So, you know, oftentimes I will try and push the first fermentation, get it in the banneton and then put it in the fridge. And then the next day just turn it out right away without letting it warm up. Because it's easier to score.
- [49:45]
David Tamarkin
It definitely is easier to handle cold. I have a really cold refrigerator, so sometimes I experience an opposite problem where it, like it slows down fermentation so much that I feel like I want to give it, I want it to wake up a little bit before I bake it. So I'll take it out, you know, put it on my counter while my oven preheats.
- [50:04]
Jessica Batalana
Okay.
- [50:04]
David Tamarkin
It's like just 45 minutes. Minutes or so. It's not like a, it's not like I'm giving it a huge amount of time, but just to give it that last little boost. But you really just have to pay attention and look at how your loaf feels.
- [50:16]
Jessica Batalana
Good question, though.
- [50:17]
David Tamarkin
And that was a really sweet call. And that was just lots of sweet calls. And now we're gonna go into the sour part of the podcast.
- [50:24]
Jessica Batalana
The sourdough. The sour.
- [50:27]
David Tamarkin
Because every episode we love to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprises and full throated ideas are in her head. A segment we call lovingly Just opinions. Jessica, what is your just opinion about Sourdough?
- [50:41]
Jessica Batalana
Well, it's interesting because I think, you know, at the top of the show we were talking about how that tartine loaf just took off, you know, and suddenly like the, the bread that you would get was this, this particular style of bread. And, and do not get me wrong, like, I was talking earlier about how much I love the. That, that style of bread.
- [51:00]
David Tamarkin
Holding it to your chest.
- [51:00]
Jessica Batalana
Holding it to my chest. It was my baby. And I think it's a delicious, you know, a delicious thing to eat. I will say though, that I don't think it is perfect for every application. And you know, there's some that are going to disagree with me, but like, you toast that bread and like, go ahead, put your butter and peanut butter on it and just like watch it rain through those holes, you know, like that, like large, like open structure, open hold structure that everyone is questing for. Like, look at my crumb. I value my crumb. What is my crumb? Like, I don't know. I think sometimes it gets, it goes too far and you're like, well, what am I supposed to do with this crust? Like, with a web inside, like, how am I supposed to. Like, there's no bread, like, where did the bread go? So I think that that bread. Bread is like, has obviously like some delicious applications. But you know, like, if I'm for morning toast, like, I don't mind, Like, I don't think a tighter crumbed bread is a flawed bread is all I'm saying. It's like, it's just a diff or even like a tighter crumbed sourdough bread. Like a sourdough sandwich loaf. Like, I don't think it's a lesser than. And it's interesting because we spend a lot of time looking at, you know, like, what people on Reddit are talking about, sourdough. And everyone is obsessed with getting this super open crumb. Like, it has become like the benchmark of a good loaf of bread. And I just, I push back a little bit against that because I think it is a certain style of good loaf of bread and that is a great thing to make some of the time. But often, like, I am turning to like a close crumbed, you know, still sourdough, but like a sandwich loaf or something like that because you get the flavor. But like, for God's sakes, you can put some jelly on it. Is that too much to ask?
- [52:52]
David Tamarkin
Well, you know, it is. It's a flex now, right? You know, I mean, and it's a challenge to get it. And right now we're about to come out with a recipe that you're gonna hate. You know, a super open, super high hydration sourdough, much like the ones you're talking About. And we're even developing an entire on demand class about it because it is so many people's holy grail. People wanna learn, so I think part of it is that they just want that challenge. But it's. It is interesting to think about the pendulum. And I just wonder if the pendulum is going to swing back that way. And I feel like it kind of is slowly, like, okay, we went super open crumb and now we're ready to go a little bit. Wonder Bread. It's gonna tighten up again. Yeah. And now we're gonna go back to Wonder Bread.
- [53:30]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, it's just gonna be like a
- [53:32]
Jessica Batalana
piece of bread that you can just squish in your hand into a tiny ball, you know, like.
- [53:37]
David Tamarkin
And I think you just kicked off the pendulum swinging back.
- [53:40]
Jessica Batalana
I hope so. A trendsetter.
- [53:42]
David Tamarkin
Yeah.
- [53:43]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah. I think there's room at the table for both styles. But I would just say to people, like, don't forget or don't think it's lesser than. Like, there's lots of ways to use sourdough that aren't that type of bread. And I think they're delicious, too, and worthy of veneration in the way that we venerate the tartine loaf.
- [54:01]
David Tamarkin
Yeah, I'm disappointed in this just opinion. It's way too reasonable. I mean, it's not really that. It's not really that habit. I mean, it's. It's nice. This has been a very nice episode.
- [54:10]
Jessica Batalana
I know I'll work harder next time.
- [54:11]
David Tamarkin
I gotta get back to some to
- [54:13]
Jessica Batalana
be my old self. What are you going to bake this week, David?
- [54:17]
David Tamarkin
Well, all this talk about sourdough got me in a sourdough mood, which I'm usually in anyway, but I'm going to go a little sweet with it. A little enriched, tight crumb. We have a new recipe on the site for a sourdough chocolate babka. And we were talking about this in a previous episode. I like the. I like chocolate with sourdough. I like that lactic tang, I think really works well with chocolate. So I think it's a very good pairing. I love a chocolate sandwich with sourdough bread. So this is.
- [54:45]
Jessica Batalana
You turn me onto this. That.
- [54:46]
David Tamarkin
So this is just. This is that just in L form
- [54:49]
Jessica Batalana
I'm going to do. We have. Well, listeners will know. And my coconut agenda has been fully realized because we have this new creamy coconut sheet cake. It's combining two of my loves sheet cakes and coconut. I mean, I'm going to have to make it for dinner. It's because It's a big cake.
- [55:08]
David Tamarkin
It's, you know, for dinner.
- [55:10]
Jessica Batalana
For a dinner party. I'm going to make it for dinner. It's got coconut milk. It's got coconut extract. It's got like a soak, sort of like a tres leches.
- [55:19]
David Tamarkin
Keep me away.
- [55:20]
Jessica Batalana
Keep me away. I won't invite you to my dinner party then. And that was a contributor recipe, and it looks really great. Kayla Huang.
- [55:28]
David Tamarkin
Oh, nice.
- [55:29]
Jessica Batalana
And so I haven't tried that yet, but I'm eager to give that one a spin.
- [55:33]
David Tamarkin
Yeah, you really are pushing King Arthur towards your own personal agenda. There's so many coconut recipes coming out of the test kitchen right now. There's a cookie with Coke stuffed with German chocolate cookie.
- [55:44]
Jessica Batalana
Oh, my gosh.
- [55:44]
David Tamarkin
That could be in a future book, right?
- [55:46]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah, that. Yeah. In fact, the test kitchen director, Sarah, was like, we can't put any more coconut recipes in this book. I was like, are there a lot?
- [55:54]
David Tamarkin
But was that maybe a directive coming down from me? Maybe, maybe not.
- [55:59]
Jessica Batalana
So that's what I'm going to do this week. And that recipe's on. Both of those recipes are on the site if you want to bake along with us. As always, thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. We're going to be back next week with a new episode. Episode.
- [56:10]
David Tamarkin
Yes. I think we're talking about bagels.
- [56:12]
Jessica Batalana
Talking about bagels.
- [56:13]
David Tamarkin
Yeah.
- [56:13]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah. Out of the frying pan.
- [56:15]
David Tamarkin
That's definitely gonna be a less nice episode. I got lots of opinions about bagels.
- [56:19]
Jessica Batalana
Yeah, I know you do.
- [56:19]
David Tamarkin
Yeah. People remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
- [56:30]
Jessica Batalana
And leave us a. I was gonna say leave us a recipe while you're there. I mean, you could.
- [56:35]
Interviewer/Host
I would love.
- [56:36]
Jessica Batalana
But also a review and share the episode with a friend because baby, baking is more fun together.
- [56:41]
David Tamarkin
Yeah. And in the meantime, people, please do not forget to follow that recipe. We talked a lot about things you could do outside of recipe today. Ignore all that. Follow the recipe. Follow the recipe. Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tumorkin, and me, Jessica Batalana Rossi Anastapoulo is our senior producer. Chad Chanay is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.
- [57:06]
Jessica Batalana
And also, big thanks to Chad Robertson, who's just the goat, for joining us on this week's episode. You can learn more about him and his new projects via his Instagram.
- [57:17]
David Tamarkin
Artinebaker thinks Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast. This episode is brought to you by a new collaboration between King Arthur and Supernatural. Supernatural, of course, is the maker of America's brightest dye free sprinkles. And we are putting those sprinkles in our new confetti cake mix and confetti sugar cookie mix. Let me tell you something. I made the cake and I made it to an ice cream cake. It was gorgeous. It was celebratory. It was like my birthday, but it wasn't even my birthday. Find both mixes@target target.com and of course@kingarthurbaking.com.