A (4:11)

Cait. Oh, sorry.

B (4:12)

Now, I was just going to. No, I'm. Basically, the last thing I'll just say is to the other part of the question you asked. You know, how much is speculation? Sort of. And how much is. Do we know? We know quite a bit, but we don't know. We don't know enough to say with any precision, like, how it all kind of works. So there's a lot of talk of angels in the Bible, is what I'm saying. But it's pieces, it's fragments. So you have to sort of be like a forensic detective and you have to piece things together. So there is a lot of speculation, but it is speculation based on things we are told. We just wish we had more answers than we might be curious about on that point.

C (5:00)

Bruce, can I ask you a question, actually, because I'm actually interested in your take for once. I'm interested in what you have to say. Just kidding. But no, I don't know the fragmentary nature of

A (5:15)

data, the accounts of angels

C (5:18)

throughout the Scriptures from old to New Testament, doesn't it? And this might be an obvious question for you. It seems like the, the authors of the scripture over, over what, over a thousand years assume that their audience that's going to read whatever they wrote knows more about or certainly believes in angelic beings and maybe even knows in a sense that they have had supernatural encounters. Or this is like a kind of common, at least a common belief, you know, in the ancient near east, if you will. And so I guess that's my first question. Is that, is that a good way of thinking about the, you know, that this, that it's not just the Bible's like inventing or like dropping some new knowledge on people, like that there's angels, right. But rather the Bible kind of helps organize it a little bit.

B (6:15)

In the New Testament, Paul makes reference at least once, maybe twice. I'd have to double check. Maybe you guys can. You would know to the Book of Enoch, which is an extra biblical book. But he's like, don't you know that Satan fought over the body of Moses? And you're like, wait, what? I didn't read that. But it's in Enoch. So Paul's taking an Enoch passage and saying, well, that part of the story was true. So there's these oral traditions in these other books that we're in touch with. This is sometimes a hard concept, I think, for people to kind of get behind. But things outside the Bible in the extra biblical books can be historically true. They're just not divinely inspired for your good in salvation. You know, you can't rely on them for the assurance of your salvation. But some of these books like the Old Testament, the New Testament authors base a lot of what they say off of what the Enoch is used, you know, quite a bit. There's a lot of stories and stuff in Enoch that the New Testament kind of just assumes is true. So there's an angel story with Satan and Moses body, to your point.

A (7:25)

Yeah.

B (7:26)

So yeah, I think the Bible doesn't just drop it. And I think ancient people just had a deeper sense of these beings than our materialistic scientific world does, where even if we saw them, we wouldn't really dismiss it as something else.

C (7:44)

Well, is it in Hebrews where I was going to say Paul, the author of Hebrews speaks of some of, you know, who have invited guests in entertainment, entertain angels unawares.

B (7:57)

Yep.

C (7:58)

So they may be more common than we think.

A (8:03)

Well, I guess even the, the Sodom and Gomorrah story. Right. Like the angels appear like men can kind of at that.

B (8:10)

Or the Nephilim who are the result of, you know, so. But like another example would be of sort of having data but then having to make. I'll give you two examples where you get data from the scripture, but they have to kind of make a speculative jump, but you're not just guessing out of nowhere. So one of them would be that all congregations, all true Christian congregations have an angel. And that would come from Revelation where each of the churches as mentioned, has an angel assigned to it by God. Now if the church is part of God's kingdom and the powers of hell can't overcome it, it would be completely plausible that God would assign angels to true congregations to protect them from spiritual warfare. And that's indeed what you in Revelation So many denominations teach that all churches have an angel, and I think that's completely plausible. Another one would be maybe slightly, a little bit more of a jump. So the seraphim are the angels with the wings, the six wings that are around God's throne. And historically they've been seen as the most holy angels because they are closest to God and not getting burned up. And seraphim means the burning ones. Lucifer means light bearer. So in patristic imagination, Lucifer was a seraphim. He was of that class of angel, which is why his fall was so bad. And also why he's the sort of leader of the demons is because he's highest up on the hierarchy. Again, purely speculation, but speculation based on sort of forensic assemblage of what we know. You wouldn't want to base your salvation or anything like that on it, but if you're just trying to make sense of the story, you need to fill in some gaps. That's a plausible way to do that.

A (9:59)

Yeah. I guess what's interesting about that is, like, what doctrine would even sort of be affected by that kind of thing

B (10:09)

is like, not really anything.

A (10:11)

Not really anything. Not your doctrine of sin, not your doctrine of salvation. Now, I do think you could eventually get to some, like, fanciful imaginations regarding the power of Satan and then Christ and maybe enter some sort of dualism or too much power assigned to them or something like that by doing that. But, yeah, those kinds of stories, the imaginings of the fall or the rankings of angels don't tend to very often interfere with that kind of thing. However, we do know there are spots kind of where it does start, to where people can rely on it, maybe not for salvation, but then begin to speculate on a personal level about angels.

B (10:59)

Right.

A (10:59)

So this could particularly, like, Bruce, you brought up the guardian angel kind of situation. So you have revelation. I think you also get this concept from Christ as well, talking about the protection of angels, even, I would say the temptation of Christ, where when he's tempted by Satan, tells himself to cast himself and his Father's angels will deliver him safely.

B (11:27)

Or angels attending him in the garden when he's praying to comfort him.

A (11:32)

So you have some concept like that, and then that can get extrapolated to my gosh, you know, my car, like, I miraculously hit the brakes when I wasn't paying attention. I didn't get in a car accident. You'll hear somebody say, my guardian angel stopped me. Well, okay, why didn't it stop the other people at church from getting in the same Type of horrific accident or something like that. Christians still get hurt, for instance, bodily. They still have accidents happen to them, fatal and non fatal and things like that. So you get, you kind of get these weird beliefs where nobody's asking. Sometimes people hear that and they're not really asking. What do angels protect from? Or what kind of warfare are they engaged in. As you already said, Bruce, or as we mentioned last time too, there's a type of spiritual warfare. There are evil angels or demons or whatever kind of assignment you want to give them. So I think it's just easy to overstate in such a way that, you know, somebody be more concerned that they have a guardian angel than that they have a guardian Christ, you know, like actually delivering their soul to salvation. But you know, but you know, our

B (12:48)

battle is not with flesh and blood. Like that's the other side of it, right? Like what's the pat. I get these confused all the time. Like Elijah and Elijah. I know I should have that down, but I still get to my head where, you know this. He opens the eyes of the servant and then he can see like the host of heavenly armies are there. So they don't have to, you know, don't worry because like God is here. Like, here you go, here's all, here's all the. This is giant angelic army, like ready to go. So there is a veil right where we are blessedly ignorant of it, but behind the scenes we have a real enemy who's out to destroy our soul. And one of the things that God has done to help with that is to provide angels. I don't know any details about how that works. That's just what scripture says.

A (13:41)

So do you think it's fair to say, like in this list of things we should be saying about angels, at least, is that number one, they're real. There are different kinds or ranks or there are categories. I mean, that exists descriptively throughout Scripture. I would say the next important one is that they are a means that God uses to accomplish certain works. Sort of like God works through means or works through people, even through us. Angels are another means by which he accomplishes spiritual works. The primary one being literally their name, both in Hebrew and in Greek, meaning messenger. So they're heralds, declarers of God's word, promises, gifts, commands, when and where he sends them would be the one. But that they also protect. You know, there's a heavenly army. They serve all sorts of means, functions which God will use. Revelation tells us at the end of the world as well at the resurrection of the dead and things like that. So they then belong to or have a positive function for Christians because we belong to Christ or are united to God in Christ. And so then the angels likewise serve us. Scripture actually describes not us as serving the angels, but the angels for our good, to serve us in God's sort of divine plan of salvation and uniting us to himself. I don't know.

B (15:25)

I think one of the.

A (15:26)

How much I'm missing there, but.

B (15:28)

No, I was just gonna give an illustration of what you said. This is kind of weird, but the most moving part of the Narnia films, which I didn't think were very good for me, was in the first movie, which is in. This is in the book too, where they finally meet Aslan. They go to, like, his camp and they're going to meet Aslan for the first time. And these, these kids, you know, these little kids show up at Aslan's camp and he's like, in the tent down like this, you know, end of the camp. And as they're walking, as these kids are walking towards Aslan's tent, you have all these giant mythical creatures like minotaurs. And, you know, these kids look so tiny in comparison to all these other creatures that are in Aslan's camp, but they call them sons and daughters of Eves and they sort of bow to them because even though they're more powerful, Aslan has chosen them to be his representatives. And it's this really beautiful picture of God doesn't just value what's more powerful. Like, we bear his image. And because we bear his image that gives us this incredible privilege through grace in the patristic imagination. This is the reason why Satan hates us so much. Again, speculation, but it's that God chose to give his image to us and not to the angels. And so puffed up with pride, he can't believe such weak creatures have God's favorite.

C (17:00)

You know, that this is going to. This is a rabbit hole. Definitely a rabbit hole. But in the creation narratives in the Quran, especially the one in chapter two, the fall is a result of. The story goes that Allah tells the angels and the Jinn, the genies, that he's going to create Adam or he's going to create humanity. You know, it's kind of interpreters kind of debate that, but. And the angels from blood, right?

B (17:34)

In the Quran is from blood?

C (17:36)

No, from. Well, it depends which, okay, whether it's Adam or humanity generally. But the angels protest. They said don't. Basically, they say, do not create human beings. And the assumption Is that God or Allah has told them that he's going to create them with free will, because if you give them free will, they'll cause all sorts of raucous. And then Allah tells this one angel in particular named Iblis, that he needs to shut up because he and the rest of the angels don't know God's providential plan, if you will, and then orders the angels that when I create my servant Adam, you're to prostrate yourself before him. So the angels are a little lower than men and women in that regard in the Quran. And so what happens is, as Adam's created in chapter two of the Quran anyway, you get this picture of all the angels because angels don't have free will in the Quran. They bow down before Adam, except for Iblis. And Iblis is cast out of the company of angels and his name is changed to, can you guess, Shaitan or Satan, you know, and he's the fallen angel. But then you learn elsewhere that he was actually a jinn kind of who had been so pious that he's invited into the company of angels. But why do I bring that up as you're talking about like the status of angels over and against human beings? The Quran kind of reverses that a little bit in that the angels, while they're to prostrate themselves before Adam at least, if not humanity, the angels actually have. It's not just power over, but they hierarchically are, are over human beings, interestingly enough, in like an ontological chain, if you will. Whereas in the biblical account, angels are like the capstone of God's creation, if that makes sense.

B (19:47)

And then Paul says in Corinthians will judge them. So the hierarchy gets reversed in Christ's work.

A (19:54)

That a religion founded by a fallen angel might suggest that the angel.

C (20:01)

This is why if you were to ask me maybe five minutes ago or how long we've been recording, 19 minutes, so 21 minutes ago. I'd be a little reticent, kind of like your dad, to do a whole episode on angels because how much can you say? Because there's only so much in the scriptures, so anything beyond that is to some degree speculative. However, it does seem that angelic activity is just all over, right? The more you study human history, especially religious history, the more you realize that there's a whole lot of weird supernatural stuff going on. Caleb, you mentioned Muhammad. I think you're referring to Muhammad. And Muhammad's in a cave in roughly 610 AD. And an angel appears to, or appears in some accounts Say an angel of light, and the presence is so strong that Muhammad's pressed to the floor and the angel communicates words from Allah the Creator in the Islamic view of things, to Muhammad.

A (21:08)

I think this is.

C (21:09)

Or there's a parallel story in Mormonism too.

A (21:12)

Yes. This is one of those ones where I kind of, you know, apart from the speculation side, I think you can kind of go, maybe you should believe some things people say to you. Okay, so that doesn't mean the conclusions are right. Right. That like Islam is true or that Mormonism is true or good. But like, if somebody tells you an angel of light came to them, founded this religion, gave them all this secret knowledge, maybe, just maybe I'll trust that for a moment. But I know then from the scripture that there's a fallen angel of light who's an evil angel. He's got a name that he seems to reveal himself in some level to these people and clearly working to establish and work with an antichrist, even a capital A Antichrist, that is literally somebody who's going to set up a religion for the purpose of dominating the world against the gospel of Jesus Christ. You know, I'm at least going to take that seriously. And I think that's the same thing. Like when I look at stuff like Luther's explanation of the second commandment, you should take witchcraft seriously. Like, you know, don't do it because it actually could work. And you might contact and speak to and use the power of demons. Right. This is the kind of thing. So I kind of like to roll with that, although I tend to believe that a lot of the time. This is why something like contact with spiritual beings is not necessitate truth or goodness or that it is from Christ. So why you have to test things.

B (23:03)

Right?

A (23:03)

So like, if somebody says an angel came to them in a dream, that doesn't necessitate that it was like one of Christ's angels or God's angels actually sharing. That's why you would have to test the message, the prophecy against what is known. So every message from a spiritual being is not necessarily from God. And so I also would caution people like that too, who would take every account of somebody seemingly having legitimate contact with an angel or something like that, and believing or thinking that that immediately validates that it's good or true.

C (23:45)

Yeah, that's Paul in Galatians. Right. If you hear a different gospel other than the one that you learned from me, even if it's attended by an angel of light, may it be anathematized or may it Be accursed.

B (23:57)

Isn't it interesting that the scripture foresees that all of the restorationist religions will source their new revelation to an angel? And, you know, it's already like, no, don't, don't fall for it. Here's something interesting we haven't talked about actually, Kib, though, which is also very scriptural about angels and demons. What you said about, you know, talking to the angels or whatever spurred this in my mind. There's things angels can't do that people think they can do. And that is the scripture is very clear. They cannot tell the future. So when people go to like fortune tellers and then they're like, well, it came true, put aside for the fact that they could be a really good con person who knows how to, you know, be vague and specific enough to make you think that something came true. But let's say that like they actually are working with demons, right? Well, the demons are far more intelligent than us as just like angels are. And they don't appear to sleep, they don't appear to have gender. So they move around in the world, they see things. They've been around since the beginning of creation. They're highly intelligent. They know human behavior, they know human psychology. They're far better manipulators than any human you've ever met. And so they don't tell the future. Only God knows the future. The future is in God's hands. But they want you to think they have that power so that you'll rely to them. The other thing they can't do is they can't read your thoughts. Scripture is clear. God alone can read your thoughts. And so good and evil angels can't get in your head and mess around there. They can tempt you, they can whisper evil things in your ears, they can try to get to your heart that way, but they don't know what you're thinking. And so we have to be careful. We also limit they are creations of God. They don't supplant God's sovereignty over future events or get inside your mind and know your thoughts. There's a lot of verses that say God alone only knows your thoughts, stuff like that.

C (26:12)

So,

A (26:15)

yeah, is there, I think this is a good kind of tail end to what we were speaking about of what shouldn't we say about angels so we can cover what you need to say, what scripture lays out plainly, what you can say with reasonable non doctrinal speculation, or like we said, I think you can, with kind of confidence say that these other world religions are Often have demon messengers involved or angelic, evil. Angelic messengers. Are there things in addition to what you just said, Bruce? Maybe Adam, too, that we just really ought not say or do about when it comes to angels?

B (26:59)

I would say another one is they're not nice. And what I mean by that is that we have a lot of artwork and people wear angel pins and there's little angel dolls. And, like, they're absolutely fiery, terrifying to every person who ever engages them unless they disguise their form.

A (27:19)

They have, like, one. One completely, you know, consistent greeting, right? Do not be afraid. That means that everybody who's ever seen one was in fact, afraid.

B (27:35)

Afraid. Here's the issue.

C (27:36)

Unless they're disguised, right?

A (27:37)

Unless they're disguised. But, like, if they reveal themselves to you as an angel, y.

B (27:42)

Here's another thing. They're incredibly powerful, obviously under the sovereignty of God, right? So Satan has to present himself to God before he can do any damage to Job. But he can do that damage. He's incredibly powerful, as are the good angels. What's interesting is at the end, in Revelation, at the very end, at the final battle, Jesus doesn't take out Satan. Michael does. So this duality that people hold, like it's Jesus versus Satan. Jesus sends Michael to take care of him at the end, like, just go get rid of this guy. Now. We're done.

A (28:18)

It's very beneath him.

B (28:20)

Yeah, it is. It's like I defeated him on the cross. I don't need to do this now. Michael, you're my general. Go take care of him. And that's exactly what happens. So even at the end, a good angel defeats the bad angel and carries out the. The order of execution, if you will, and binds him into hell. So they're incredibly powerful beings, which is probably why, again, speculation. But why we need them, why God sends them, and why we need them for spiritual warfare at times. Because I don't think people really realize the devil wants to kill you and your children. He wants to take your faith away. And if he can't do that, then he's just as happy to kill you. He's a real enemy. He's not just like a thorn in the side, something I gotta contend with. No, he is the enemy of God, of the gospel and the world. He will spread sickness, division, plague, destruction, death, hell, torture, sadness, depression, anxiety, any seed of discord and destruction. Hell itself he tries to bring on Earth. He's a real enemy. And that's why Paul says the real battle isn't with what you're seeing here. Because behind that veil is this very, very powerful enemy doing all these things. Now, we shouldn't fear him. We should have a respectful fear. I think, you know, we shouldn't be so puffed up that we think, like, we can just go head to head with him. Resist the devil and he will flee from you, but resist him in the power and might of the Lord with the armor of God and all that kind of stuff, not on your own. But he's also. So he's not to be feared, but he is to be respected as a true enemy. You know, don't take your enemy for granted either.

C (30:17)

So you're saying Luther was a little. Speaking a little facetiously when he says you should turn your backside to the devil and pass gas in his face.

B (30:26)

He said something far worse than that,

C (30:28)

which I don't know if I can

B (30:29)

say on the podcast. People can look it up. Just look up devil and scatological ravings and you'll find it.

A (30:39)

I think one of the important things to add to the list of things people shouldn't do or consider is worship or prayer.

B (30:50)

Yeah, that's a good point.

A (30:51)

The angels. Yeah. Similar to, I would say, the reasons to not pray to the saints. Right. Who have come before us, which is you can pray concerning the saints, for the saints, things like that. You can pray for the angels, concerning the angels, but to God, they're not objects of worship first and foremost, because they have no power. There is no promise that they are going to specifically hear you and respond to your prayers. Right. There's no promise of omniscience, omnipresence. Is there an angel in earshot right now? You don't have a promise concerning a specific angel hearing your requests and doing anything regarding them. So even though angels do work for your good work, spiritual warfare are means by which God accomplishes certain things. You should be praying to God. I think Luther's morning and evening prayers are a good example of this too, where we ask for the divine protection of angels. But you're petitioning God, your Father in heaven, to continue his protection using his means that he uses for protection, that is angels. So that would be that. And also not worshiping them in any other sense either. I think the Book of Concord has some comments too, about, like, you know, an angel can't come perform sacraments for you. An angel can't transform bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ and things like that. So they're not objects of worship, even though they are present, even sometimes in worship. We would say so. I Think that one's big. Just realizing that they are as Bruce was, I think is to tag what you were saying, they're powerful, but their means of power is divine authority and divine command. Yeah.

B (33:01)

I mean, they are the ones who do all the terrible stuff in revelation at the end with God's power. But they, you know, they're the God's like, okay, go. Go with these bulls. Okay, go. You know. Yeah, yeah, like, like, yeah, they chain the earth. They do. I mean, there's a lot of power that they hold and. And that's good. They're on our side. Like, they're on God's side. They're on our side. Right.

A (33:29)

So ultimately, I think the other thing that comfort in I. I think we have to say something about their relationship to the gospel and God's sort of final ends, like what we know, you know, the point of theology, the finality of God's revelation being the salvation by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that that's where your faith clings to and rests. You know, the angels relationship to that as messengers. But then also I think as the spiritual beings of protection that we know that God is preserving the world, even though when it doesn't seem like it as history unfolds and as death and famine and war and corruption ensue around the world, God is preserving the world first and foremost so that more people are redeemed, the more people come to faith in Christ. He still has a purpose. We know that his purpose is that salvation. And so he's still desiring people to hear the gospel, to come to faith. And so that even then when you say like that the angels are involved in this protection, I think it would be safe to say that they're involved in his greater purpose of preserving the earth, preserving things such that the gospel can go out not just sort of arbitrarily so to my sort of like accidents and you know, individual divine, you know, bodily protection or something like that, but for the purpose that God's. God's comfort of the gospel, God's proclamation of his word would still remain and go out into the world. And that sort of like all means that God uses. That is sort of the final purpose.

B (35:24)

And another thing I think we sort of mentioned, but we didn't really mention it in addition to that is I think God also uses his angels. I don't know that we always know that it's happening, but I think scripture shows that, you know, they also minister to us, comfort us when we're undergoing some type of spiritual Attack. Like Jesus in the garden, for example, or Jesus after the temptation when the angels come and comfort and minister to him. And, you know, this is anecdotal, but it is true. When I was a pastor, I was around a lot of DeathBeds. And on three particular ones, I had people say in the room with their family around at least two of them, their family around. One of them was just me that they see that they see the angels right. Minutes before they died. And you could say that was drugs that they were being given. Although in one case this person had ms, they weren't really on any drugs. And, you know, you see in Acts 7, when Stephen is stoned, heaven opens up and he sees Jesus up there and the host of angels and stuff. So I. I think the takeaway for me is that we just have to know they're around and that they're part of God's kind of grace. Not salvific grace, but just loving grace to accomplish his final work of Christ for us in the church. You know, he's ensuring that that completed work comes to its. The kingdom comes in its fullness. And he's using angels to do that and that they. He's doing it for us as individuals. In many cases, like he's sending angels to help fight spiritual warfare or to comfort us or to our churches or to these things. And I just think it shows the dedication and the care of a loving Father who knows that we're up against not just flesh and blood.

A (37:35)

Well, very good. Any other closing things? Adam, any closing thoughts you want to.

C (37:42)

Maybe just to add on to Bruce's last comment, that because our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but the powers and principalities of darkness, that even minor things or big things like evangelism and so on, in addition to men and women gathering around a table, planning and so on and so forth. And I'm terrible at remembering this, but everything should be attended by prayer. And that God, like we say in the morning and the evening prayer, or like we petitioned God that God would send his holy angel to protect us in all things. I think as especially the more you're shaped by sort of a modernistic worldview that doesn't have any room for this place. As weird as it might sound to some ears, the biblical worldview is one where the universe is teeming with spiritual realities. And so. And our. I don't know if this is the right word, but our access to that spiritual reality is through prayer and petitioning God that God would order the world right and carry out his business, even in the spiritual realm, even as he uses us in the temporal, physical realm to achieve his ends.

A (39:14)

Yeah, I think that's a great end to this episode. If you enjoyed this episode, if you found it useful, or maybe think somebody in your life could benefit from this episode, go ahead, do us a favor. Share it with a family member or a friend this week. That is sort of one of the best things or the biggest things you can do to support a podcast that you enjoy or that you listen to regularly, because it's one of the ways that we get new listeners who actually want to listen to the whole episode this first time. Your family and friends like you. They trust you. And so when you make a recommendation, they'll probably, at the very least, check it out. So we appreciate your help in continuing to share this show with more people as well as the other resources@1517.org, and if you have time, go take a skim over there. There's new things on the website every single week. We thank you for listening. We'll catch you next time. Bye, Sam.