Does God Have a Plan for Your Life?

Summary

Thinking Fellows – "Does God Have a Plan for Your Life?"

Podcast: Thinking Fellows (1517 Podcasts)
Hosts: Caleb Keith, Scott Keith, Adam Francisco, Bruce Hilman
Air date: May 5, 2026
Episode Length: ~45 min

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Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

In this episode, the Thinking Fellows tackle an age-old question in Christian theology: Does God have a plan for your life? The hosts explore this topic through Lutheran, Reformed, and popular evangelical perspectives, diving into issues of divine sovereignty, human freedom, vocation, and Christian responsibility. The conversation is nuanced, relatable, and occasionally humorous, always circling back to the tensions, misunderstandings, and anxieties people face when seeking—and trying to interpret—God's plans for them.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Cultural and Theological Reflections on Destiny (08:27–13:00)

• Topic Intro: The question is posed: "Does God have a plan for your life, or are you free to make your own destiny?" (08:27)
• Discussions start by noting how American Christianity is often shaped by the concept of "reverse bondage of the will," where free will is seen as central, but divine planning still looms large.
• The relationship between differing church traditions—free will (typically evangelical) and predestination (Reformed)—frames the broader theological debate.

Bruce: "The question translates into both sides of the church tradition, whether you’re a free will or a non free will sort of tradition.” (10:22)

Notable Exchange (Humorous):

• Scott jokingly refers to the Jacob and Esau narrative and its reinterpretations:

"Esau’s Jesus, of course, he was created for destruction." (11:34)
Caleb: “Heretic.” (11:51)

2. Anxiety and Responsibility in the Search for God’s Plan (12:19–16:48)

• Many Christians feel anxiety over discerning God's plan, especially in life decisions (marriage, career, etc.).
• In Reformed traditions, the anxiety often centers on the question of election ("Am I chosen?"); in Evangelical circles, it's about living meaningfully and finding 'the plan.'
• Hosts note a paradox: Christians are more comfortable crediting God with earthly success than with their own salvation.

3. Scriptural Evidence and Its Application (18:15–33:02)

• The hosts analyze commonly quoted verses (Jeremiah 29:11, Romans 8:28, Proverbs 3:5–6) about God’s plans.
• They challenge the way these verses are often applied out-of-context to individual circumstances, arguing the texts generally refer to God’s ultimate plan—salvation—rather than micro-managing each life decision.

Scott: “There is much less evidence for… He is working out, like the specifics of your temporal life here.” (15:06)

Bruce: “Can you imagine a sovereign God who isn’t involved and just kind of lets things happen? That’s not really right either.” (21:22)

4. Cruise Ship Analogy: Both Divine Plan and Human Freedom (21:22–24:51)

• Bruce offers a “cruise ship” analogy: You’re free to make choices during the cruise, but you can’t change the ship’s ultimate destination.
• Human action and responsibility matter, even within an ultimately sovereign plan.

Bruce: “There’s a sort of paradox… both are true. He is sovereign and in control, and your choices are free. But I don’t know how to jive that in certain… If you zoom into a specific circumstance, like Judas, I don’t know how that works. I just don’t.” (23:23)

5. Hindsight, Blessings, and the Problem of Interpretation (18:15–21:22, 24:51–26:01)

• People often attribute positive life events to God’s plan, but rarely negative ones, which creates problems for doctrine and pastoral care.
• There's a risk of making others—whose lives may seem less “blessed” by earthly standards—feel overlooked or unloved by God.

Caleb: “Are the earthly blessings really the ultimate sign of being blessed by God? This question is difficult.” (20:30)

6. Wisdom, Vocation, and God’s Practical Guidance (33:02–44:54)

• The role of wisdom, maturity, and vocation:
  • Proverbs and Paul's letters stress becoming mature and responsible, not outsourcing every decision to God.
  • God indeed guides and provides, but much guidance comes through family, church, community, and the use of reason (36:08–38:48).
• The parable of the talents is invoked to show that excessive caution and refusal to act can be a form of unfaithfulness (38:48).

Bruce: “…sometimes what seems like piety and seeking after God is actually just a fear of the freedom that God has given us.” (38:42)

7. Where Does God’s Plan “Stop”? (41:41–43:54)

• How far does God’s plan go? Down to which car you buy?
• God’s plans are seldom as specific as sometimes supposed. Instead, his revealed will is more often found in law and gospel, applied in everyday life through vocation.

Scott: “That’s different than God before the foundation of the world, predestining all these little movements of your life… At some point… Where does that stop?” (41:43)

8. Christian Freedom: Walking Confidently Without Anxiety (48:19–52:17)

• The conversation ends by reassuring listeners that, in light of Christ, they need not fret.
• Christian freedom means that while God is sovereign, Christians can use reason, seek wisdom, and act in faith—without anxiety over “missing” the plan.
• Both the unpredictability of life (the Tower of Siloam, Luke 13) and the caring sovereignty of God are emphasized.

Adam: “…even if you… go to Barbados or marry this person, and let’s say it doesn’t go so swimmingly, it doesn’t affect your salvation. It doesn’t mean you’re no longer elect … because God in Christ still died for you.” (49:09)

Caleb: “…you need not be anxious about this. You belong to Christ… he’s certainly got a plan that ends in your good. That’s a promise.” (52:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Reverse Predestination:

  "I actually said predestination… It's not just that my free will chooses my salvation, but I have no free will in sort of temporal things. God does all that for me." – Scott (14:25)

• Cruise Ship Analogy:

  “Imagine we board a cruise ship… endless choices… but you don’t really have a choice on where the ship is going.” – Bruce (22:19)

• On Blessings and Suffering:

  "What if it all falls apart tomorrow? Is that God too?" – Scott (18:15)

• On Seeking God’s Signs:

  “I always wonder that too…how do I expect that God is going to communicate to me that this girl is the one he’s chosen for me?” – Scott (35:09)

• On Wisdom and Vocation:

  “Ask your parents and…maybe your pastor, maybe other people at church…” – Scott (36:08) "The obligations that I have in this life…do help make that decision…" – Caleb (43:09)

• On Anxiety and Freedom:

  “One of the things about Christian freedom is…if you decide…let’s say it doesn’t go so swimmingly, it doesn’t affect your salvation.” – Adam (49:09) “You need not be anxious about this. You belong to Christ… he’s certainly got a plan that ends in your good.” – Caleb (52:07)

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Important Timestamps

• Start and travel banter: 00:19–04:34
• Topic introduction: 08:27
• Free will vs. predestination traditions: 10:14–13:02
• Scripture and God’s plan for your life: 29:41–30:48
• Cruise ship analogy: 21:22–24:51
• Role of wisdom, maturity, and decision-making: 33:02–44:54
• Final thoughts & takeaways: 48:19–52:17

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Tone and Language

The hosts combine rigorous theological discussion with informal banter, inside jokes, and humility about the limits of human understanding. The tone is honest, thoughtful, sometimes playful, but always aiming for wisdom and pastoral care.

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Conclusion/Takeaways

• While God’s ultimate plan—salvation in Christ—is certain and revealed, individual life decisions are shaped by wisdom, vocation, and Christian freedom.
• Christians should not be paralyzed by anxiety over “missing” God’s secret plan, but instead walk confidently in faith, supported by the means God has provided: Scripture, the church, community, vocation, and personal responsibility.
• Earthly blessings or sufferings are not direct indicators of God’s favor or disfavor; the ultimate good promised is in Christ.
• As the episode closes, listeners are reassured: “You need not be anxious about this. You belong to Christ… he’s certainly got a plan that ends in your good.” (52:07, Caleb)

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For further listening:
Explore prior Thinking Fellows episodes on the Bondage of the Will and vocation, or Michael Horton’s talk on Calvin, Luther, and free will (referenced in the discussion).

Transcript

[Scott]

Foreign.

[Caleb Keith]

Hello and welcome to the Thinky Fellows podcast. My name is Caleb Keith and the Thinking Fellows is brought to you by the 1517 podcast network of shows. You can go to 1517.org and you can see everything that 1517 produces each week. That includes daily blogs, weekly preaching helps. We have videos multiple times a week. Podcasts basically. Well, not basically really every day of the week. You can check that all out at 1517.org. It's curated on the homepage there. And then you can subscribe to shows like this and the other podcasts on the 15:17 podcast network in your favorite podcasting apps. We have my father back. Back from Scandinavia. Is Finland Scandinavia. How does that work? It's like scandal Russia.

[Scott]

No, it's Scandinavia. So Scandinavia, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland.

[Caleb Keith]

Okay, sure about that?

[Adam]

Like is that universal?

[Scott]

Yes.

[Caleb Keith]

Is it like a. What makes it Scandinavia? Their heritage or some political agreement? What's the.

[Scott]

I think it's a little both, but I think the heritage is the big part. You do have a point with Finland. But Finland was ruled by Sweden for 700 years before it had its sort of travails with Russia and maybe Germany, but mostly Russia.

[Adam]

There's still Laplanders in Finland.

[Scott]

There are. I went to Lapland. Did you?

[Adam]

Wow, she eat like reindeer.

[Scott]

I did eat reindeer. Several times in fact. Reindeer jerky is the most delicious jerky I've ever had.

[Caleb Keith]

Wow.

[Adam]

Do you remember coming back from Norway those years ago and I had some whale.

[Scott]

Yeah, you had whale meat.

[Adam]

Whale sausage. And I was trying to smuggle it back into the US Smuggle with air quotes.

[Scott]

Did you tell them about it?

[Adam]

I don't remember. I just remember being really nervous coming back into the U.S. did they catch

[Bruce]

you and confiscate your way?

[Caleb Keith]

No, no, no. Coming back into the US Flex my. Feels like you're a criminal.

[Scott]

Let me walk through it. Doesn't anymore. I gotta say the last, the last three times I've come back in to lax, it's like it might took mom and I five minutes to come back in.

[Caleb Keith]

You always feel like the questions that are probably non consequential but like that you're supposed to answer way were you there for business.

[Scott]

So they don't even ask. Recently I haven't even been asked any questions. So the bad part is, is that I think this all has to do with their facial recog, the RFID on your passport that they can read with little scanners and they can just. If they know there's nothing really going on with you, they just pop you over to this line. You stand in front of a camera for three seconds. It examines your face and it knows who you are with your face. You don't even show them your passport and you come back in. So it was good and bad to it.

[Bruce]

I went to Canada. When I crossed into Canada, like, the border patrol was, like, super friendly. They're like, welcome to Canada. And then they say it in French, too. And like, how long will you be here? And then when you come back first, you, like, drive through this long thing, and it's like all these, like, cameras are taking pictures of your car from every angle. And then the guy comes out and he's, like, in full battle fatigue. He's got, like, boots, was tucked in pants and, like, a machine gun. And you're like, guess I'm going back

[Scott]

to the US

[Bruce]

Totally different experience.

[Scott]

Yeah. I'd say lately. Lately it's. It's. It's better than it was. I do remember, like, 10 years ago when we would go, you did get like, what were you doing there? Why were you there for so long? Is it. You're like, why are your bags heavier now? I bought stuff. I don't know. So that was the one I was actually worried about. Customs sheets was all the tariff crap.

[Caleb Keith]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam]

I did buy me. Did you buy me anything? A souvenir?

[Scott]

I didn't.

[Caleb Keith]

He bought nothing.

[Bruce]

You didn't come back with, like, envobes. I feel like that would be the thing people would bring back.

[Scott]

Well, the one thing I did buy is going to arrive legally and I'll end up paying a tariff on it because it wasn't in stock.

[Caleb Keith]

Oh, so ship it here.

[Scott]

But the plus is I didn't pay the VAT on it either, so that's good.

[Caleb Keith]

There you go.

[Scott]

Okay.

[Caleb Keith]

Well, our real episode topic today, although this could be fun, we could just talk about travels in Scandinavia.

[Scott]

We could talk at one point, we should get Tony on who's the guy from Finland, to talk about all the things that are going on with the Lutheran Church in Finland. Because it's actually, it's, I'd say, slightly more interesting than what's going on in Sweden.

[Adam]

Yeah. Didn't the court, the high court, their rule that. That. That, I guess, yeah. Equivalent to a congresswoman wrote a tract 20 years ago in defense of, like, normal, natural, traditional marriage.

[Scott]

I think she was defending it publicly, too. So I think she did write it a while ago, but I think the lawsuit was about her teaching on it more currently.

[Adam]

Wow. And she's guilty and that's it. No Appeal.

[Scott]

Well, their Supreme Court. So she's guilty. No appeal. And it's horrible. There's a. There's a lot of backlash to it. Um, they. They don't think from the people I talk to and maybe is. These people are a little more positive about government all the time than any of us besides Bruce would be. And, you know, so it's like, you know, it's hard to tell if they're just kind of being them, you know, like, hey, government's not all bad kind of people. They don't really think that this kind of thing is going to keep happening there. But at the same. And I. The other thing I'd say is that I kind of wish the news headlines would have said not only was she found guilty, but that the punishment was like a 300 fine. Because it made it. The headlines themselves made it seem like she was going to jail and she got fined, like $300. But it was. It's still not good. I'm not saying it's good. I'm just saying the headlines made it seem like she was gonna get locked up. That's not what's happening.

[Caleb Keith]

Well, to my knowledge. In defense of Scandinavians and their love of government, I know we have Scandinavian listeners and they probably cringe every time we do this kind of thing, but they. I will say, when you have a group of people who essentially makes up the population of LA county and they all share the same heritage background, and even if they don't practice religion anymore, religious background, ultimately, at least even just like a generation and a half ago back, I think it's easier to be like, we're all relatively on the same page. Like, that's, you know, or I can argue with this person than it is here in America.

[Scott]

What's funny is my sense of it always is that there are probably. And I know the numbers say there are way more unbelievers there than here, but they're all more culturally Christian than most people I know here, even the Christians I know here, period. So it's like. That's kind of weird. I don't know. It's just. It's a whole different. We should have. Because they're probably cringing. We should have people from there come help us talk about this. And the good news is I can hook us up. I'm going to be on another one of their podcasts this week.

[Caleb Keith]

Oh, well, there you go.

[Scott]

I'm like a podcast regular in Finland and Sweden.

[Adam]

Fancy pants.

[Scott]

Wow. Pretty soon I'm going to be speaking the. I won't make fun of their language, even though it's so easy. I'll be speaking the language. Yeah.

[Caleb Keith]

Okay.

[Adam]

Good luck.

[Caleb Keith]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Or not Finnish. Not Finnish. I would never, never even try Finnish. But Swedish. And they can all speak Swedish too.

[Caleb Keith]

Okay.

[Scott]

All right.

[Caleb Keith]

Our real topic. Did we even say it? Does God have a plan for your life? I think, Bruce, you came up with this one. You phrased it, let's see. Or am I free to make my own destiny? Now this reminds me of something we've, I think, talked about before. I don't know if we've dedicated a whole episode to it, but that my dad's brought up, which is in sort of American Christianity generally, this idea of a reverse bondage of the will so that like in free will,

[Bruce]

free will

[Caleb Keith]

traditions where you've got to make a decision to give your life to Christ or to give your heart over to Jesus or however we want to phrase that after this process has happened, God's plan for your life makes itself known, maybe or can be known through prayer or something like that, or should be at least considered before you do anything big like is buying this house. God's plan for my life is going to this college. God's plan for my life is marrying this girl. God's plan for my life kind of situation. And to what degree do you have control over that? It's also an interesting question when we consider sort of our position on the bondage of the will and a distinction. I saw somebody else talking about this recently too that's sort of lost, which is in the distinction between the will in our theology and the will behind all decision making and the bondage to sin and say your ability to pick Cheerios this morning or whatever. Bruce has planned for lunch because he gets hungry after these recordings.

[Scott]

I would too. To be fair, I was making fun of him this morning. If I were on his time, this would make me quite hangry.

[Bruce]

Caleb, can I just add too, it's not just. While it is predominantly kind of popular in free will traditions, this question also shows up in different forms in non free will traditions, like in reformed, where God has a plan for your eternal salvation before he even creates the world. And some of the reprobate. God's plan for them is to serve the elect and the purposes of the church and the elect. So this question really translates into both sides of the church tradition, whether you're a free will or a non free will sort of tradition.

[Adam]

I've never heard that latter part.

[Scott]

Yeah, me either. It's like there's no, true to me. Are you talking about, like, Esau serves Jacob kind of thing?

[Bruce]

Yeah, and Paul talks about it in Romans 9 and 10. You know, how God can make a vessel for whatever purposes he wants to serve the greater good. And so it depends on how high you want to take God's sovereignty in those traditions to the question of God's plan.

[Scott]

Yeah, we should do a Jacob and Esau episode because I think I got a whole different spin on.

[Caleb Keith]

So for the.

[Scott]

It's perfect here, too, but I can give you a. I mean, Esau's Jesus, of course, he was created for destruction. Yeah. So. But that's fine. Not created. Don't freak out.

[Caleb Keith]

Heretic.

[Scott]

Heretic. All right, stop, stop, stop, stop.

[Bruce]

He only appeared to.

[Scott]

I know. Stop.

[Adam]

There was a time when he was not.

[Scott]

You gotta go to YouTube and see my air quotes if you want to know what this meant. Like, and subscribe us on YouTube.

[Caleb Keith]

It's okay.

[Scott]

You. I know, I know.

[Caleb Keith]

You can say whatever you want about Jesus as long as you put air quotes around it according to Jesus.

[Scott]

You can say anything you want about Jesus. You just can't say whatever you want against the Holy Spirit.

[Bruce]

Like, I've talked with many Reformed people, for example, who have the anxiety on whether or not they are elected. And that's completely in the plan of God, in their tradition. Right. So the question takes a different form, but it can be just as kind of harassing for them as it could be, say, in a different way. For the evangelical who's saying, well, my life has to have meaning, so I got to find God's plan. That's the difference, I think, with the evangelical side is there's a responsibility to find the plan. The complexity on the other side, it's not. So that's not so much. It's fatal. It's already faded.

[Scott]

Is it fair to say that the topic, though, is more focused on free will tradition?

[Caleb Keith]

Because I would say. I mean, Bruce came up with the topic, I guess. But I would say that the problem with the scope, both directions, is that the answer, or I guess the address to both of those is wildly different. I think maybe. I agree. I have ideas and that I would say on the Reformed side of speaking of God's plan, in terms of election to salvation, I would reference, like, the three or four episodes we did on the bondage of the will this year, and maybe we could do a little more then on, like, the distinction between the Reformed positions and the Lutheran position. In fact, if you wanted to get a bit of a basic understanding on that, he presented it as the ways in which they agreed from their Augustinian background. Michael Horton's talk at Here We still stand, that's on YouTube about Calvin and Luther and the bondage of the will. You could privy some differences there too, from that talk. Even though he presented the positive relationship

[Scott]

as well, my memory of that talk serves. There wasn't. I mean, there was some. Some distinctions, I guess, for the informed,

[Caleb Keith]

you would notice the differences right away. Okay, so maybe. Maybe that's a bad example. Maybe that was just.

[Scott]

If we were to like, move this topic forward a little bit. I mean, the. The thought you said free will. I mean, when I first started having this kind of realization some time ago, like over a decade ago, I actually said predestination that they have a reverse predestination. In other words, it's not just that. And the will is definitely part of it. It's not just that my free will chooses my salvation, but I have no free will in sort of temporal things. God does all that for me. It's literally a rejection of God's predestination for my salvation. And in. And a sort of affirmation of he predestines everything in my life. And it's just kind of my. My job is just sort of to. To, I don't know, maybe find the predestined spouse, the predestined job, the predestined whatever. And that's the. That's the part that got me, like when I had that sort of realization. I remember I was at Concordia. I remember sitting in my office and drawing it out on the whiteboard going, what the heck? This is crazy. And it was mostly from interacting with people that worked for me there that were evangelicals and just. It's such an interesting distinction to me because I find very little. There's a lot of evidence in scripture that if you are saved, it's because not only did God, before the foundation of the world, decide to save you, but that he worked that salvation out in real time by sending you a preacher, by making by your baptism, by the Holy Spirit working through the Word to bring you and keep you in the faith. And it's his work beginning to end. There is much less evidence for, like, you and me to show that he's got a. That he is working out, like the specifics of your temporal life here. Now I think there's a. It's kind of like a providential or serendipitous aspect to being a Christian for sure that he's going to Work all things out to good for those that love him. But that good is your salvation, right? It doesn't mean that if you love him, you're never going to get cancer or that you love him, you're never going to go bankrupt or if you love him, you won't, you know, have a marriage that ends in divorce or kids end up, you know, an extreme disappointment.

[Caleb Keith]

I guess the other, Sorry, I was

[Adam]

like, oh, please don't go there.

[Caleb Keith]

There's two, I mean there's, gosh, there's two ways in which I think they find this, that people find this compatible with their free will position, which is that God has this plan of salvation for everybody, but that he doesn't like forcefully enact it. And then I think the same thing is true when they say that God has a plan for like your marriage or your employment or your safety or your well being in the sense that good decision, that God won't make you follow his plan. But if you find his plan, if you meditate on the scriptures and you know what his plans would look like, you'll then, as a follower of Christ, you would then choose to commit to his plan. And when you don't is when the backsliding happens, the bad things happen and whatever that. Also in terms of the bad things happening, I find very common then is that this is God testing your faith or strengthening you through suffering or something like that. So there's always a positive spin about how ultimately this could work out.

[Scott]

So I got, believe it or not, I attended something on Friday where there was a lot of this going on. And it's always sort of post hoc, right? So it's always like I'm waiting for God to bring the right person into my life. You get married, have three kids, it all seems like it's working out. You say, oh, look at what God did in my life here, in our lives here. Isn't that great? And you hear that. But if it's like I'm waiting for God to bring the right person to my life and you get married and 18 months later you're divorced, you rarely hear, oh, look at what God brought into my life. And that's the problem with the whole thing is that you sort of have the pre notion which is, I want God to do this for me just fine. But then you have sort of the after the fact where you're judging whether or not God did this thing for you by how it worked out. And that seems to be sort of, to me in a lot of ways the issue I Mean, I'll have people look at me and go like, oh, look at what God has done for you. And they're referring to the fact that I ended up at 15, 17, and how well that seems to be going and everything. And what are you going to say to that? That God didn't have a hand in it? I'm not going to say that. But when it happens so when it comes out so definitively, this is probably just my sin. In my mind, I'm always wondering, what if it all falls apart tomorrow? Is that God too?

[Caleb Keith]

Or the other one, which is when somebody says that and it's like, somebody who things aren't going well in their life and all of a sudden you realize that they're saying, oh my gosh, this is working out for you. And your life is sort of like an accusation of, why isn't God blessing me the same way? We actually see this in a lot of the conversations that we have. I think one of the sort of aspects, dad, of your work on family stuff that we see and hear and get comments about that aren't like, you shouldn't write about this, but it's just like, I don't understand why God has blessed you with such a big, close family who loves you.

[Scott]

Well, even in some of the comments on that YouTube video that we put up were like, isn't that nice for you? And I was like, holy cow.

[Caleb Keith]

Stuff like that too, where it's like, you'll hear that. And it's like, oh, man, God's really blessing you. And like you said, of course, you affirm that, yeah, God does have a hand in all the good that happens to us. But then what does that mean for the people who seemingly don't have good happening for them now, who are our neighbors, our friends, our co workers, our fellow church members, etc. Is God just blessing a handful of people in his church? No. So then at some point, are the earthly blessings really the ultimate sign of being blessed by God? This question is difficult.

[Bruce]

I tend to think that this really boils down to the question of divine sovereignty versus human freedom, and that the answer is just always both. And that when you try to, like Scott was saying, when in hindsight you start to go, well, God was working here, but I don't think he was working there, or that was completely my fault. But you know, there's like weird verses, right? Like, well, you thought this was meant for bad, but I actually meant it for good, or I work all things out for good, or he's moving history like can you imagine a sovereign God who isn't involved and just kind of lets things happen? That's not really right either. Um, so the best way I've heard this put. And you guys probably are familiar this. But maybe not all listeners are. Is kind of. And all analogies fall short. But the analogy of, like a cruise ship, it's like, imagine we board a cruise ship and we're going to Barbados. Now, on that cruise ship

[Adam]

I've been

[Bruce]

to, I'm just picking a place. Okay, I'm going to. Let me play it out, because maybe we won't go to Barbados. Okay, so we go to Barbados. And on that cruise ship, you have a lot of freedom, right? And the choices you make directly will affect the quality of your life on that ship. Like, if you want to get drunk every night, you're not going to have good mornings. If you brought kids on the ship, that's going to be very different than if you didn't. Do you want to go to the casino? Do you want to go to the pool? Do you want to eat a lot? Do you not want to eat a lot? Do you want to sit next to that guy? Do you not want to. Like, endless choices, and they're your choices, and the choices that you make are going to directly affect you and the other people on the ship, but you don't really have a choice on where the ship is going. You can't go up to the captain and be like, you know what? My friend Scott doesn't like Barbados. He wants to go to Spain. So turn the ship around and go to Spain.

[Scott]

Not going to happen.

[Bruce]

So there's a way where you can envision, imperfectly, where God has an ultimate plan, where he's directing everything to where it's going. And yet even within that plan, there's human freedom and consequence.

[Scott]

And.

[Bruce]

And yet God is not completely absent from that. And I think the problem starts to come in when we start to say, no, this is mine. This is where I have complete freedom. And that's just His. And that's where he has complete control. When really, I don't think that's necessarily given to us. What's given to us is God is on the throne. He blesses, he directs, he ordains, he controls. He's a king. And human choices and responsibility matter to God and to each other. And I get nervous when traditions start to try to, like Scott was saying in hindsight, start to say, well, it was here, but it wasn't here. This one did this and this one did that. There's a sort of paradox where they're both operating at the same time and yet both true. Like, he is sovereign and in control, and your choices are free. But I don't know how to jive that in certain. If you zoom into a specific circumstance, like Judas, I don't know how that works. I just don't. I think Judas made a free choice to betray the Lord. I don't think he was compelled to do that. And yet Jesus is like, yeah, this guy was raised up for that very purpose. So I don't know how to make sense of that other than both are true. Do you not want to go to Spain either? Do you not also want to go?

[Scott]

No, I don't. I don't really want to go.

[Adam]

Only Northern Navia.

[Caleb Keith]

Weren't you paying attention to the beginning of the episode?

[Adam]

Finland.

[Bruce]

It's a cruise to Finland.

[Caleb Keith]

Adam's been conspicuously silent.

[Scott]

Yeah, he really has.

[Adam]

I don't have a whole lot to say, but I was just thinking back in 1998, when I first met Scott. Did God bring us together?

[Scott]

Oh, well, maybe.

[Adam]

Or is it just our choice that we were going to converge in between those two dormitory complexes?

[Bruce]

Just kidding.

[Scott]

That's a little fruity.

[Bruce]

But I think it's an important question for some people because they feel the weight of their own inadequacy and insecurities. Right. And they want a God who's going to direct them and. And help when things go wrong. So they're always looking for God's plan because they're trying to mitigate the loss of their own sort of inability or belief in their own inability to kind of be successful at life or whatever that means for them, you know, not screw it up. And so I'm also cautious to kind of take that away from people like, well, you know, God doesn't really have a plan or care for your life. I don't think that's true either. But there's an anxiety that comes when you're trying to find the plan. And there's also an anxiety that comes if you don't think God cares and is involved. And I see that.

[Adam]

How do you feel about Jeremiah 29:11 being quoted all the time?

[Caleb Keith]

Maybe T shirts, sweatshirts, maybe?

[Scott]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

You think? Little out of context.

[Scott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caleb Keith]

It's like the. If you run the good race on, like, Christian school track team shirts, you're like, there's. There's no way these are related.

[Scott]

I'm sorry. That is funny.

[Bruce]

It's like when people say, well, all things are lawful for me. And you're, like, quoting that and saying it's a bad idea.

[Adam]

I like the. I do like Bruce's both.

[Scott]

I kind of like. I'm trying to find a real problem with it, but I'm having a hard time.

[Adam]

Yeah. And I actually. I've never. I've never heard that analogy before, Bruce. I hadn't like it.

[Scott]

So I don't know, because even you're. I mean, one of the reasons why it's good is. And I don't want to push it too far until it completely falls apart, but one of the reasons it's good is because even you have lots of choices on this cruise boat, but your choices aren't infinite. They're not as infinite as they would be like, if you were, you know, just kind of in the whole world and had direct access to anything anywhere. There's a lot of choices, but they're not. They're not infinite. And that kind of, I think, kind of plays out like that. There is. There is some of a little of both of this in everybody's life. Like, where you. Where you are born, to whom you're born. All of that will limit, you know, it will take you infinite choices down to so many choices. And then within that, you're asking for. For God to. To bless you and to direct you within that level of choices that you've already sort of been born into, which may be more limiting than someone else. And it's just. That's just a reality. I was watching something. I was. I watched car videos on YouTube. I was watching a car video on YouTube. And this guy starts out by going, my entire life growing up was spent out. And he does, like, Porsche 911 like, retrofits now, which is awesome. He's like, was spent in the garage with my dad learning how to fix cars. And I'm like, that choice was not available to me. Like, I didn't. I didn't have that choice. Like, I could. I have still learned to work on 911s if I wanted to. Sure. But would it have been sort of as. As a natural choice as this guy's? No, it just. And that's sort of part of it, too. But where I think this gets, specifically for Christians, where this gets weird to me is when you have that sort of segment that are really uncomfortable giving God all the glory when it comes to their salvation and are way more comfortable giving God all the glory when it comes to their earthly success. That's the sort of the paradox here, that I'm okay with embracing tension and paradox in scriptures when it calls for it. But that one's just not there. Like, that one's just not there. Even when he says, I'll work all things out for good, he's not saying that everything in your life up to and including the person you were married was predestined before the beginning of time. Now, maybe it was, and I'm totally wrong on that, but I don't see that there.

[Caleb Keith]

Well, I mean, I think the reason you could say you're not wrong about that is, like, you know, it's not great, but, like, the. The Moses being given exceptions for divorce and things like this.

[Scott]

Right.

[Caleb Keith]

Like the way that those laws work out. I think I was. I brought up. I pulled up a list of the most popular verses about this.

[Scott]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Caleb Keith]

Adam had the one already. So we have Jeremiah 29:11. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, and then it goes on.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Caleb Keith]

Romans 8:28. And we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good. Proverbs 3, 5, 6. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and he will make straight your paths.

[Scott]

Okay, can we stop just there for a second? There is a very easy way to see all of these verses where God is referring to your salvation.

[Caleb Keith]

And I will.

[Scott]

I'm just saying, like, well, so what is. What path is he making straight for you? He's making straight for you. The path to Christ. Like, is he making. Does that mean that you're never in.

[Bruce]

I completely agree with that, but I would say in Proverbs, it's also connected to the making the path of wisdom straight, which is what folks, well, knowing and doing.

[Scott]

Right. Help me out here. We're Lutheran. Right? Help me out here. The path of wisdom is the path to Christ. Say it with me. There you go. Yeah, there you go, baby.

[Caleb Keith]

So I would say it always feels to me like there's something. One of the things missing is the means by which God works, and then thus works all things together for your good. The idea of promise, and then with Christ and salvation totally secure, because it's not a work of my choice, but actually the divine election of God, the way in which that makes my life good, even when there's nothing good in it. So how Christians. For instance, this was in the prayers of the church yesterday, but it comes up frequently how Christians with the promise of the resurrection die and suffer in a way that is different, which is not, as those without hope is often as it is. Right. We even Die differently because God.

[Scott]

And grieve differently for the dead.

[Caleb Keith]

And grieve differently for the dead, such that I could have everything going for me right now and confidently say, God is blessing me. He's giving me great gifts in this body and life. But also, it could all be taken away tomorrow. And you know, in Christ can say it is okay, right? It is.

[Scott]

Well, you could say that the verse that he's working all things out for good is true, because a Christian, like, even if somebody that you really loved was lost tomorrow, you. You grieve differently as a Christian, you grieve with the hope that you're going to see them again, the true hope that you're going to see them again. And this is, you know, that they have yet fallen asleep, but together you will be made alive in your body, in glory, and you will be reunited in front of the Son. And that is completely different. And it's the way that all of these verses should be understood rather than, I know for a fact, because of that verse, God's going to give me a marriage that's going to be 100% successful.

[Caleb Keith]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

I think there's an aspect to this, too, that's not often talked about, which you can see in Scripture, in both wisdom literature and in Paul's writings in the New Testament, specifically Paul, which is that God is also interested in developing you into the kind of person that matures and has personal responsibilities so that you can be good for your neighbor. So in other words, the wisdom literature doesn't make much sense if it's not trying to form you into a certain kind of person, particularly a person who follows after lady wisdom and not after lady folly. Right. And Paul talks about how I was going to give you. It can't give you this meat. I got to give you milk, because otherwise you'll throw it up. But he's kind of frustrated. And he talks about the conscience. Yeah, talks about the conscience. Right. And he talks about how, well, this person can't eat food, eating idols, because they're not really ready for that. So if they do that, it'd be sin to them, but the other person has a more mature conscience, so they understand Adiaphras, so they're free. So I think there's also an aspect of this where people want to outsource. They have a natural inclination to want to sort of outsource all their responsibility to God and say, well, that's all part of God's plan. When God is also trying to just make people responsible, mature Christians, whatever that in Totality means for him. But at the very least what it means is being the kind of person who is less self interested and more able to provide and care for their neighbor. I mean that's why he says to the, to the person who can eat food eaten to idols, like you're the stronger one. So when your neighbor who is weaker comes in, don't eat, don't eat the meat in front of them because you're stronger. Like be a different kind of person. And I think that gets lost in this because people don't want to take responsibility for making good choices, mature Christian choices based off of what scripture has, has taught them how to live. And they just want God to give them some like, well, tell me what I need to do, God, tell me what do I have to do in this case? Do I have to marry this person or that person? Do I have to take this job or that job? Do I have to.

[Scott]

That that gets to. The next thing is how do you expect to, for this to be communicated to you? I always wonder that too. It's like, okay, well how, how do I expect that God is going to communicate to me that this girl is the one he's chosen for me?

[Bruce]

Well, because I had to fall in my car while I was driving and it was shaped like a.

[Scott]

Or inevitably, unless they're full tilt charismatic, they're just going to say, and this is even a little charismatic, that it was a feeling. But even within modern American evangelicalism, God gave me a word. God told me.

[Caleb Keith]

And I actually think you could. There's a way in which God actually does communicate, maybe about your spouse, your future, your college work that people really like to shut up and ignore too, which is God works through means. And we actually know what some of those means are. Where we can get, for instance, wisdom, a word about what makes a good spouse.

[Scott]

Ask your parents and the people something

[Caleb Keith]

called your parents, something called, you know, your, maybe your pastor, maybe other people at church, maybe people at your work who have years more experience than you.

[Scott]

That's a very old fashioned idea there, Caleb.

[Caleb Keith]

It also seems to be a biblical one, I suppose when we consider the fourth commandment and its promise that ye shall live long on the earth. To say that that is divine wisdom because God has given you, your parents to care for you, that when you are questioning is this girl going to be a good wife? And you kind of think so, but you don't know. And you're on your knees praying to God is this the right one?

[Scott]

And your parents come in and go

[Caleb Keith]

and they're like, and you're ignoring everybody in your life who's like, she's a major red flag. Or the opposite is true. Everybody in your life is telling you to marry this girl. And you're like, I don't know. I'm still figuring it out. You know, that's probably more realistic nowadays, that's for sure. You have family and the, you know, it's like, I'm waiting for a sign from God. Well, your parents saying, you know, I think this girl's great, you should marry her, is literally your sign from God.

[Scott]

Like that is meanwhile your parents, your favorite uncle, all your cousins, everyone who said, man, she's really great, you should

[Caleb Keith]

just marry this girl.

[Bruce]

Give another analogy. I think even sometimes, sometimes the way that certain people kind of look for signs and all that kind of stuff, it's actually sinful. Take the story of the talents, the parable of the talents. Right? The guy who buries the talent in the ground and doesn't take risks for fear of disobeying, disappointing the master is actually the wicked servant. The one who has faith and is like, you know what? I'm going to invest this money. I might lose it, but the master gave it to me to invest, so I'm just going to go do that. Is the one who's praised and like, the one who takes the higher risk because he's grounded in who his master is. Not just because he's a risk taker, but because he's grounded in who his master is, is the one who's rewarded and the one who's like, I'm not moving until everything is figured out and I know exactly what he wants. And what he wants me to invest in and how he wants is the wicked servant. So we have to be careful here too, that sometimes what seems like piety and, and, and seeking after God is actually just a fear of the freedom that God has given us. And we're not.

[Caleb Keith]

I knew you were a shrewd master, so I did. Yeah, I did nothing. Yeah, because you might have punished me.

[Scott]

I was not shrewd at all.

[Caleb Keith]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

And he's like, if you knew that, you're even dumber than I thought.

[Scott]

That is a great line. Jesus is pretty good at telling stories.

[Caleb Keith]

Wouldn't it be fair to say God, I mean, God does have a plan for your life and desires for your life? Our sinful flesh and desires in the old man do get in the way of that. And that if you want to know what God's plan for your life is, There are a couple of mechanisms. Like I was saying, there's the vocational means of these people that God has put in your life, but also that pretty simply, we could also do the Lutheran thing and say the law and the gospel clearly communicate God's desire for your life, one, securing your eternal salvation. That he desires that you come to faith and trust in Christ alone for all things. And also that his law is, like, right there. It doesn't have to get much more complex than. Than the commands that are in Scripture regarding, like, I wonder how God wants me to behave. That's been like, you know, there's 10 words. And then from that there's a bunch of examples of these 10 words applied across 66 books and 2,000 years of human living experiences. Like, it's not that big of a mystery. And I also think that most Christians know exactly how. I mean, I think they know exactly. They know exactly how God wants them to behave.

[Scott]

I didn't intend this. I don't think you did either, as a plug for being family. But that's the first two chapters of that book. This is stuff God has been saying to us since Adam and Eve.

[Caleb Keith]

So, in fact, the question actually kind of shows the revealing of your sin, which is, you know, how God wants you to behave or what his plan is, and you don't like it a lot of the time.

[Scott]

Or you're. I think Bruce is right. You're scared of it. It's not even the modern inclination is not even skepticism as much as just fear. Like, there's a. There's a fear of you not having it all laid out perfectly. I mean, at the end of the day, one of the things that this whole mentality I think, would produce is a fear to ever make the wrong move. Because then you'd have to do what, admit that God wasn't behind that move and it was an extra bad sin because you didn't ask God and he didn't bless it or something like that. That's. It's not exactly how it works. And again, I want to be careful here. I think every Christian should pray that God. That God helps them.

[Caleb Keith]

Give them wisdom and discernment to give

[Scott]

them wisdom and discernment to. To do the right thing and to make the right decision. But that's different than God before the foundation of the world, predestining all these little movements of your life and then down to what. Where does it stop? Like, does it stop at what car you buy? I mean, I don't. It's. At some point, I'M always just wondering, okay, that's interesting. Where does that stop? And that in sort of the. Where does that stop is how you get all these things. Like, you know, Jesus has a plan for how you handle your finances and Jesus has a plan for, you know, all this kind of stuff that led to.

[Caleb Keith]

I mean, again, I do think some of that's revealed by what we were saying though is like, I might be able to say God does have some opinions on what car I buy, but it's vocational, that is, I shouldn't have two two door sports cars in my driveway. I have five kids. Like this is like.

[Scott]

But I probably should.

[Caleb Keith]

Yeah, you definitely should. That's right. But I have five kids, right? So it's like, it's not a mystery what I need to serve my neighbor. I need something that can transport my family. Or if I can't buy that, or that's not available, you know what?

[Scott]

You should get a van.

[Caleb Keith]

I should get a van. That's right. Or if you can't get that, or that's not available now your plan is how do I transport this family? Is there. Do I live somewhere with public transit that can be used? I live in America, so no, but

[Scott]

the, or not even America, buddy, you live in Big Bear.

[Caleb Keith]

Yeah, but I just think that's part of the equation, right? I don't need a vision from God or a dream about what car I should buy. But the obligations that I have in this life, the responsibilities I have, do help make that decision. Including things like financial obligations and responsibilities to people, my church, my family, whatever that may be. So that, you know, it could be, it could sound silly, but like, do I buy this? Do I buy that does at least have some vocational answers to it. If not, you know, divine revelation through a direct whispered word from God.

[Bruce]

I think it's interesting too. If it's God's plan, like if it really is God's plan, you don't really need to find it because it's gonna happen. Yeah, like if, you know, like if it is God's plan. The anxiety of, well, I gotta find it. No, you don't. You just don't. You're on a need to know basis. Like, you'll find out it's gonna happen. I again, like Scott, you had said, I'm just remembering this. Like one of the first things you said earlier was like, you know, and God sends you a preacher and God's. Because part of this plan for salvation God is working out. But then the question is like, well, okay, if God Sends the preacher. Was the preacher free? But then I go back to the cruise ship where I'm like, it's both. And the preacher freely became a preacher, like he was called, but he became a.

[Scott]

It's his vocation.

[Bruce]

It's his vocation. But also God had a hymn. It's not just his. You know, it's both. And I don't know where exactly how to flesh that out completely, but it's both.

[Scott]

No, I guess that's the problem with the way we. Well, not the way we set it up, but the setup that I ran into those years ago is that I'm. I'm perfectly willing to say it's both. Like, I'm just not willing to draw the line at God spoke to me, and this is the person I'm supposed to marry. Like, that's. I'm perfect. Like, I. I have this semi charismatic story of how my wife and I met and how we met at camp, but she was supposed to go to another camp, and at the last minute, camp I was at said, we need her, and then, boom, we met. And it's like, okay, do I think God had a hand in that? I don't know. Part of being a Christian is believing really that he is looking out for you in the world, too. But I would never take it to the point where I would say, well, definitively. And not only that, but when she got to that camp, he told me she was the one. That is where this gets a little, I think, just beyond the point of either what you could verify externally or what you could verify from the scriptures, that there's alternative.

[Caleb Keith]

This is, you know, you don't want to go down too big of a rabbit hole, but there's alternative lives that you could have lived that were also good and blessed by God and totally fruitful.

[Scott]

I do believe that, too. But. And you, if you haven't already, like, you'll start to feel this. Whatever those alternative lives are that I could imagine, they wouldn't have gotten me, you or your brother or your sister or now my eight grandchildren. And I get that. But I actually think that there was a point God predestined to save you, Caleb, and that one of the ways he brought that about was through the marriage of your mother and I and your birth. And I. So I. I'm careful with. I try to be careful with sort of the alternate path thing. Because, yeah, of course there's alternate paths that for me, could have been just as fulfilling, I suppose, but they wouldn't have been as fulfilling for You?

[Caleb Keith]

Yeah, I present the situation, which I don't exist.

[Bruce]

And how far do you take it? Like, you know. You know the story from History of Stonewall Jackson. And he gets that name right, because he stands up during the battle. Everybody else is crouched behind rocks in the woods, and he stands like a stone wall. And they ask him, well, why are you doing this? And he's like, well, because God knows exactly where I'm gonna go, so it doesn't matter what I do.

[Scott]

You go, yeah, maybe it takes time.

[Bruce]

I. I get. I get the idea. But then why aren't all your troops just standing up and, like. Because everybody just has a. You know, like, you have to. It's like you said, Scott. It's when you try to find that line.

[Scott]

Yes.

[Bruce]

It just ends up becoming silly.

[Scott]

It's like everything theologically. Right. It's the point at which you try to be definitive, where the text is not definitive, that you get into real trouble.

[Adam]

So Caleb mentioned earlier that I've been very silent, noticeably silent. And then I'm getting texts from Scott asking why I'm so silent and so on. Remember this episode we did? Maybe we didn't do it, but we talked about it. Like, why are Adam and Scott so boring? Do you remember this, Scott?

[Scott]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caleb Keith]

I was never worried about this question.

[Adam]

I think it's just best not to say too much.

[Scott]

Yeah, it is. This is one of those.

[Caleb Keith]

This is.

[Adam]

For me. This is definitely one of those.

[Scott]

You know,

[Adam]

I do like how y'.

[Caleb Keith]

All.

[Adam]

I'm in Illinois, but I'm pretending I'm Texas today. Y' all put things, you know, that. I liked how Caleb put it just a bit ago, I thought we were winding down this episode since it's probably Bruce's feeding hour.

[Scott]

Yeah, mine too.

[Adam]

But, you know that God does have a plan for your life. But, you know, I don't know exactly how you put it. He's also given you the wisdom to kind of navigate this life. His. His ultimate plan is that you. That you come to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and. And are saved. And if you're a Christian, that's already the case. As we go about this life, we pray for wisdom. I really like the bit on, you know, how God has provided means, parents and the scriptures and all sorts of other things to consult. He's given you your reason and your senses and still preserves them as you navigate the, you know, the created order. In light of the Gospel, though, one need not fret. I don't think that's the great thing about Christian freedom is. Even if you, like, are doing something, and I'm not talking like sin, if you're like, you've decided you're going to be this, or go to Barbados or marry this person, and let's say it doesn't go so swimmingly, it doesn't affect your salvation. It doesn't mean you're no longer elect or something like that, because God in Christ still died for you. But it also doesn't mean that God's the one who orchestrated all that bad stuff or that when things went good, he orchestrated all that. But I do think, like, in hindsight we ought to give God all the glory when things go well, you know, but not say so much as we've been talking about this whole episode that suggests that every time something goes well for us, we're going to give God credit. When things go poorly for us, we're going to blame something else or, or, or, or what have you. So I think it's best just to take the middle road and kind of talk less. I have a shirt.

[Bruce]

Can I just add a, add a verse to that?

[Scott]

I would say that's a good place to wrap up, but maybe not.

[Bruce]

Well, let's just wrap up with this verse, which, you know, Jesus says, noodles cooking. Why, why did, why did the. Those guys die? Whose blood was mingled with the temple sacrifice? Or why the Tower of Siloam fell on those people? And the assumption was they all deserved it. The town fell because they did something wrong. The people were massacred, deserved it. And Jesus like, nah, sometimes the tower just falls and sometimes people do some stuff.

[Scott]

Yeah, yeah. That's so great. That's so great.

[Adam]

I think the whole point for us

[Scott]

doesn't even say that it fell on righteous and unrighteous.

[Bruce]

Yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

It's like, yeah, it just fell.

[Bruce]

The engineer was dumb.

[Adam]

I think of Luther's on the freedom of a Christian, which doesn't really address this question, but kind of does. Like, basically, it's like, walk confidently in the Gospel.

[Scott]

Yes.

[Adam]

And there you go.

[Scott]

Yeah. That is such a great way to think of this.

[Caleb Keith]

I think of Matthew 6, 26:34. Why are you worried? Why are you anxious? Look at the birds of the air. They neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, yet the Heavenly Father feeds them. Aren't you more valuable than they? And which of would you be? He goes on with two more sort of analogies as well about being anxious. And I think that's where this one ends, which is, you need not be anxious about this. You belong to Christ. You're united to God with him, and he's certainly got a plan that ends in you're good. That's a promise. And so, you know, just hold fast to God's promise for your life.

[Scott]

Amen.

[Caleb Keith]

Excellent, guys. You can subscribe to the show in your favorite podcasting apps. You can watch video versions of these episodes on YouTube if that's your style. As well, you can check out the direct to YouTube content that we have that isn't this podcast, but sometimes relates to topics on this podcast over at 1517's main YouTube channel and subscribe there. We thank you for listening. We will catch you next time.

[Bruce]

Bye.