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- [00:00]
A
Hello 15:17 podcast listeners. This is Caleb Keith, director of the 15:17 podcast network, here to talk about our June Podcast Fundraiser. The June Podcast Network Fundraiser has become an integral part of the fundraising we do to support these shows throughout the entire year. The 15:17 podcast network is special. We have many shows ranging from topics in the Old Testament, New Testament theology, history, and so much more. And each one of these manages to keep the focus on Christ and Him crucified for the forgiveness of sins. We thank you for being a listener and for your support, both subscribing and donating to keep these shows on the air this year. The Podcast Network Fundraiser has a goal of $150,000 to support the production, the posting and the hosting of these shows. We believe that the Podcast Network is worth it and we think that you do too. We keep all of these shows free and ad free, meaning that we do not put these shows behind paywalls. No advertisements jumping in between the content, just the entire recording presented to you uninterrupted. We believe that these are the best ways to present our podcasts and we greatly need your support to keep it that way. Without collecting revenue from subscriptions and ads, the Podcast Network is entirely dependent on donors who love and are impacted by these shows to keep them going. If you would consider supporting this show, you can go to 1517.org donate. You can also go to the Show Notes here and there are links directly to a giving page where you can support the Podcast Network Fundraiser. Thank you for helping us reach our goal of $150,000 this June and we hope that you continue to enjoy these shows. Hello and welcome to the Thinking Fellows Podcast. My name is Caleb Keith and the Thinking Fellows is brought to you by the 15:17 podcast network of shows. You can go to 15:17.org podcast to see all of our shows. 1517.org is also home to many things besides podcasts. We have blogs regularly throughout the week from our Thinking fellowship. We have YouTube videos. You can go to 1517 on YouTube. There are conferences that you can sign up for and I think there might even be a handful of remaining tickets to our big Fall conference. So go ahead and look at that. There'll be links in the show notes below. You can also find books and a whole lot more. Today I am joined by my father, Scott Keith, and by a special guest all the way from Finland, all the way in Finland, Tony Kokkonen, who is a pastor and a director of youth ministry in Finland. And I think my dad had the pleasure of meeting you and spending time with you while he was in Finland, what, a month ago? A month and a half ago. When he got back, he was like, we need to have Tony on the show to talk about Finnish Christianity and Finnish Lutheranism today, sort of the state of things today. So we'll ask you some questions about that. But why don't you introduce yourself, let listeners hear who you are.
- [03:29]
B
Yeah, happy to be with you guys. So my name is Tony Kokkonen. I'm a pastor at ordained in the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church, the state church. But my main job is with the Independent Finnish Lutheran Mission. I'm a director of youth work there. That's my job. First vocation is being a baptized Christian and I'm a husband to an amazing wife and I got three great kids and we live in Southern Finland. So that's maybe in a nutshell, I have like a pet project or little hobby called a PhD also.
- [04:10]
C
You're a PhD student too?
- [04:12]
B
Yeah, yeah, I'm doing a. I'm pretty recent in a PhD so I started doing that in January. So I'm still. I have hopes and high dreams and a lot of great expectation for that process. But yeah.
- [04:30]
C
And you're doing your PhD through University of Helsinki, right?
- [04:35]
B
No, actually it's a smaller university called Obo Academic University in another big city in Finland called Turku. In Finnish and English, usually. Finland actually has three theological faculties in the state, like a state university system. The one in Helsinka is probably the biggest. And there's one in University of Eastern Finland in Joensu and Orbuagenam University. It's actually the Swedish speaking university. But I kind of ended up there because my research is about. It's in systematic theology and Jewish studies and kind of the faculty is a little bit specialized and Jewish studies is only at the Aubo Academy University. I did my master's from University of Helsinki, though.
- [05:30]
C
Gotcha.
- [05:33]
A
Well, I think so. You know, listeners who are regular listeners to the Think Fellows will know that we've talked to guests across Scandinavia in the past in Norway, and then we have had Magnus Persson on from Sweden a couple of times, especially more recently. And one of the interesting things to do is on the show occasionally we talk about or complain about the state of Christianity in America and Lutheranism's probably larger role or place in Christianity in America than it feels like or looks like at times. But certainly it's got this. You know, we're ignored largely in American Christianity even when we have people who have large reach or are publishing or things like that. It's always like, where are you guys? Well, I mean, we're publishing stuff. It's just people get annoyed with Lutherans pretty quickly. But in Sweden and Norway and Finland, Lutheranism has a much more direct influence over the sort of the course of the history of Christianity in those countries. And I would imagine then still today, which means that sort of any movements or secularization there are sort of directly reflected in what Lutherans are doing in Finland. Is that true?
- [06:51]
B
Yeah, I think actually you can argue that the Lutheran Reformation actually gave birth to the Finnish nation, because Lutheran Reformation actually gave the like the Miguel Akrikola. There's a bunch of guys in the Reformation called Agricola. This is one of the good guys. He's a student of Melanchthon and Luther. He's a Finnish guy. And he translated the New Testament and the catechism into Finnish. And in doing so he also like created the basics of Finnish written language. And before that Finnish was a spoken language, but it was kind of. The dialects were so different that some Finnish people had trouble understanding each other. So like having the New Testament written, kind of standardized and created the Finnish language and kind of gave birth to Finnish people as a people. And the Lutheran Reformation, it's so ingrained in the culture here that it gave birth to the culture. And there's a lot of things like the state actually was formed around the parish system. Like before there was a parish, before there was like a state, municipality or a county, there was a parish first. And like the state was built, or like a state, communities were built around that. So in a lot of ways it's very ingrained in the culture. But there's also like a difference to if people know about Scandinavia, that the big difference in Finland comes in 18, 1809, when Finland is annexed by the Russian Empire from Sweden. And that kind of created interesting situation for the principal of whose region, that's whose religion kind of situation. Because then there was a Lutheran country, Lutheran land, but the ruler was a Russian Orthodox, Russian, Russian Char, the Russian emperor. So from 1809 forwards, like the Finnish law and society came to emphasize a lot about the church's autonomy from the state as well. So that's like a big difference in regards to other. When comparing to other countries in Scandinavia, that technically the Finnish church is very independent, very autonomous from the culture or from the state. But again at the same time it's so deeply linked to the nation and the state, it sometimes it's difficult kind of spot where one ends and the other begins it's interesting.
- [09:50]
C
Our listeners will have, I would guess that many of them could probably find Finland on a map or on a globe, but in might take a minute. So previous to 1809, Finland was a part of Sweden, right?
- [10:08]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [10:09]
C
And so when you say sort of distinct language in the Reformation kind of developed Finnish, which Martin Luther's translation of the Bible very much did the same thing for German. It made German a, you know, a more universal language to the Saxon lands and what became known as Germany later, but distinct from Swedish. Right. So it's like.
- [10:35]
B
Yeah, yeah, you can think of like Finnish as a language. Actually the linguistics can probably explain this better. My wife, he majors in Russian language in university. But the Finnish is actually like linguistically it's more related to Hungarian or Estonian. So you can think like Finland as that's the adopted kid in the family of Scandinavia.
- [11:02]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, gotcha.
- [11:03]
B
But because Finland has been so long part of Sweden, so we have like a large Swedish speaking minority. And Swedish is the other official language in Finland as well.
- [11:15]
C
Right. So you just to make all of our listeners feel like they're completely uneducated in school, you guys, I mean you have to learn Finnish obviously, but you also learn Swedish, correct?
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B
Yes. And English. German.
- [11:29]
C
Yeah, English or German. Yeah, just take that Americans.
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A
Americans are always slack and you hear what happens when you're the one stinking language.
- [11:38]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's a good investment. Learning languages is the key to the culture.
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C
So it's a good investment to learning how to think.
- [11:49]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
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A
Yeah. Language forms thought it's a important aspect of it.
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C
Side note, I've just, I've lately, because Tony gave me a book that did a little bit of Finnish history. I've lately become a little obsessed with Finnish history. So I wanted to.
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B
Oh, that's cool, that's cool. I can't argue that I speak perfectly. Like, I think like besides Finnish, English is probably my strongest language then. I've been trying to freshen up my Swedish, but Germany I did in school and if I have a dictionary and 100 years I can probably translate a sentence. I know a little bit Russian though. I live a short while doing missionary training in Russia.
- [12:40]
C
Okay. Caleb and I learned Latin because nobody can ever try to make you speak it.
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A
Yeah, that's a good point.
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C
Yeah.
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A
So what is the state of, of Christianity at least your read on things in Finland, is it, I mean is it like the rest of the west and, and the United States, is it a precipitous decline towards Secularism is. I mean, given that it seems like Lutheranism was so integral to the culture, I would imagine that secularization looks or sounds different in Finland too. I would assume that like there's maybe ecclesial language still used among people commonly and things like that. But what does it look like?
- [13:27]
B
Yeah, well, one way to approach this. First of all, I don't think that secularization is going to mean less religion. It probably means paganism 2.2 or something similarly.
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C
2.2.
- [13:43]
B
He's been reading Mike Horton, the reverend of the paganism. But yeah, so, yeah, like the language and like a lot of things, they are present in a culture. And you could argue that even like a Finnish atheist is actually a Lutheran because he, most likely he or she holds on to a lot of views and values of Lutheranism. But the interesting question here, around here probably is that the Lutheran values and way of doing things and kind of like a whole welfare system and the idea that everyone is valuable, everyone has human rights, and that's based on Christianity and Lutheranism. And when that is going away, then how long a society can keep up values without the belief or the faith behind them? And the secularization it does and affects the state church as well. So the question here is often that is the church, is it conforming too much? How much can it conform to the society and its norms? And that's actually one of the big reasons why we have bayou organizations to finish Lutheran mission and other renewable movements within the, within the church. And so it's often been that people feel that now the stature is going too much into the culture and we need a movement to like realign it and bring it back to scripture. So yeah, I don't know if I answered your question, but yeah, but I think, I think not isolated here, it's the same as the rest of the west in many ways.
- [15:50]
C
Can I give you a little observation, Caleb? Even my sort of observations and the difference between sort of, again, this is going to be completely anecdotal. And just know that I spent, I don't know, two and a half weeks in Finland and I've spent like three and a half weeks a couple times in Sweden. So completely anecdotal probably means nothing. But it seems to me in Finland that the conversation is more around bringing the state church back to some sort of faithfulness. And it's not like in Sweden where the faith church, the state church is kind of irrelevant societally. Maybe, maybe that's too strong. But in Finland it didn't seem like the state church is irrelevant. It's like people care that it's. Either they either care that they want it to be more liberal or they care that they want it to be more in line with scripture, but they care about the state church so much so that when we were on our tour, I forgot the Catholic guy's name, or I think it was you, actually, when we were walking around Helsinki, told me that one of the discussions right now was whether or not to keep up. I guess what you and I, Caleb, would call like confirmation in the public schools, you know, where they do religious. Lutheran religious instruction in the public schools. Now, I don't think that happens in Sweden and hasn't happened in Sweden for a hot minute. And so that's different. The other thing that I was really just struck by, because I've spent a little bit of time with Magnus and EFS in different EFS churches in Sweden now. I think probably five or six of them by this point. And at their seminary, what FLM is doing seems different in that they're really trying to build a coalition in a way that. The way I think we would say it would be. Like, if you're scriptural and you're confessional, it seems like you're allowed in this movement and you can be kind of high church, middle church, low church ish. Probably not totally low church, but low church ish. And be in this movement. And they're trying to get along for the sake of a coalition. And I just want everyone to understand how controversial it is that I just said a bunch of different Lutheran segments were trying to get along, because that doesn't happen. Our heritage is German Lutheranism and boy, we don't try to get along at all.
- [18:24]
A
Actually, while we're recording, there's a new schism in American Lutheranism forming today, like in the last, like 48 hours. So.
- [18:34]
C
Really interesting.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So.
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B
So, you know, Lutherans love fighting out of Lutherans.
- [18:40]
C
So that's. Yeah.
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B
Favorite pastime hobby.
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C
Yeah. So it's just it. It had a. And I'm not saying what EFS is doing, that's got a great feel too, but this just had a different feel to me. Especially like in the worship services. It was just. I don't know, there was something about it that seemed like, hey, we know we're kind of underrepresented here, and if we don't come together, we're not going to have any influence. So let's come together and have a little bit of influence as such as we can on the continual moving left of the State church. Because we still care about Finnish Finland being Lutheran.
- [19:20]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think think that's true. I think. Well, it's probably, well the way I see it that the Finnish state church, the bluefinish state church has like it has more autonomy in regards to society, that it decides its own laws and chooses some leaders. But so it has more autonomy in relation to society. But then again compared to Sweden I would say that the church is very much more tied to the society that they have basically the same political parties that made up the parliament, make up the church version of the parliament and the kings the head of the church. But then again inside the church they have a lot of more spectrum and a lot more of kind of a liberty you could say when compared to Finland. I think here thing has weeping very uniform and in a way that is being the traditional model here is that it's the one parish and you care about that and you want to invest in that and, and you know, like a traditional model like for our movement would have been like on Sunday 10am first you go to the, you know, worship service, the divine service at the state church and then maybe six, six in the evening you have like prayer house meeting or it's in events day evening or something like, but, but like these renewal movements is something that's like complimenting or you know, adding something to the stature to Paris and that's, and the parish is like the focus of things and, and that's why you care about it so much because that like that's where you get the sacraments, that's where you get communion, it's your church. And, and I, I, I think Swedish system has been for a long time, maybe a little more. There's been a little bit of a more spectrum and the local parish has been kind of like a already for a longer time. This bunch of different things and kind of like you know, I guess in the U.S. the United States and big, really big Lutheran church as well that you kind of make up that you guys have several services in one church, that you have like 8am people then you have 10am people and then you have like 1pm people. And I think that's been reality in Sweden for a longer time than compared to Finland. We all been 10am people for a long, long, long time.
- [22:13]
C
That's how we are too.
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B
Yeah, but that's actually, I think that's like one of the things that might be changing in the future that kind of, you know, for a long time there was like this unwritten rule that the Finnish state church bishops, they can't disagree publicly that they will do anything as long as that they are united. They give out. Give out the united front that they don't disagree publicly. But that's with the. All the issues with marriage discussion, LBTDA and all that. That's like being broken in last few years. And we have this crazy situation right now that actually the state General CNOD has decided that no, we're not going to go forward with approving gay marriage. But then the bishops council said that no, it's okay.
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C
Oh boy.
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B
And we don't have like there's not a mechanism like to safeguard or say anything to the bishops that no, you have to obey the General Synod. So we kind of are in this really gray and really weird lawless situation at the moment. And that kind of like gives a pause to the renewable movements as well that can you actually renew anything now? It's all wild, wild west type of situation that all bets are off and there aren't rules anymore.
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C
It's interesting. It might make your renewal movement even more congregational or parish centered in a sense because if you come to the realization that you can't like fix the whole. You might focus on kind of one church at a time type thing like can this church be faithful? Can that church be faithful? Can this church be faithful and can we help it get there? I feel like that's kind of more where like Magnus is with efs. I think that they don't really have a thought that the state church can be brought back to be more confessional, but that if they get more churches in EFS by one at a time they can.
- [24:29]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think that's. There's actually, there's a little bit parallel. But you guys have. You guys know Redum Sumer, United States and his project. So where the original redoomed zoomers like
- [24:45]
A
the og the Reconquista.
- [24:48]
B
Yeah. Thing that. So I think that's, you know, Finnish and Swedish and other Nordic countries and they've been doing that for a long time. But now that situation is kind of. And I totally agree with what Scott said, that future kind of looks like that flm's work is going to move into more independent direction that we're going to build more of what is. Actually, it's probably said something alongside of that. We have still trouble saying that we're building a church.
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C
Yeah, we do too.
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B
Yeah. But it would be a church, you know, faithful, gathering together to receive the word and sacraments. So that's something we've Had a hard
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C
time saying that with our little church, in a way, you know, even though that's exactly, in a sense, what's happening when you're theologically minded and you're kind of Augsburg Confession minded, you know, and you have articles 5 and 14 ringing in your head, it's hard to say we're out here making a church because, you know, that God makes the church and that he calls people to faithfully proclaim the word and administer the sacraments, and that is what makes the church. But I totally get it in our very little context. It is very true, too. And I think we see that more now than we would have four years ago.
- [26:26]
B
You know, sometimes we finish. And other Scandinavians, we kind of like to overemphasize the culture thing that going outside the state church, that it's not just, you can't. It's not just, I'm gonna go to another church because this one is rotten, but it's more like comparable that I would go out in the woods and live there with my family without running water. Especially for older generations, the thought feels really weird. But then again, as a father, I gotta think that I'm not willing to do the Redeemed Zoomer thing on the expense of my kids. They're hearing the gospel.
- [27:10]
A
For listeners who might not know who Redeemed Zoomer is, he's a popular young. I mean, I think he's maybe 22, young Presbyterian. I think he's a seminarian now, and he's had an online platform since he was in his bachelor's degree, I think, where he does these comparison contrast videos about various denominations in America that have been very popular and things. But his whole idea is he stays in a relatively liberal mainline church. I think PC USA is what he's in in his argument, where he's very conservative and confessional, theologically at least as far as Presbyterians go. But his argument is that those churches were lost to the conservatives leaving and giving up the fight and letting. And once liberals obtained power, instead of waiting an election cycle building movements within the church and doing something positive, they just splinter off and create new synods or denominations whenever they lose. And so he's been trying to say, hey, it's worth. You know, instead of giving up the main line or giving up large church bodies that are going liberal, if all the conservatives would stand and fight you, you could maybe do something here. So that's his kind of perspective, just to give people context of that. The thing, I think in Scandinavia, and I would guess this is True in Finland too, that I know has been difficult or challenges for friends. We've had in say Norway for instance that are part of smaller non state churches. Is that because it's so ingrained in the culture? There's even a system of the church's is funded through taxes and so even that becomes a new burden or something people haven't done or considered which is the amount of giving, say it takes to own your own buildings, call your own clergy, pay for them to have a salary, take care of their wife and children and things like that. And so all of a sudden you're asking like a lot of people to do something unusual historically.
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B
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's true. Yeah. How about the redeemed swimmer, by the way? He's married now. There's. So there's some Mrs. Redeemed Swimmer as well. You can follow her as well.
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C
Hey Tony, has you ever done a show on like the comparative analysis of Lestadians?
- [29:38]
B
No, no. I'm dreaded because that would be like there's like a 45 different list.
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C
I know. Yeah, well I think it's so apostolic in the states.
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B
Yeah. And first born Listerians and there's a whole lot.
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C
But
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B
yeah, yeah, about the. Yeah, that's true. That stepping out the state church system, there's, there's practical things to be considered. Like the church tax thing that actually goes directly from my salary. It's a tax. I don't have anything to say about that. I'm a church member. So it's like average middle class fin pays like 3 to €400 a year, a church tax. And it goes like without. They don't have to fill out any forms and it just goes automatically. But I don't know, like Alpha Lam is financed on its own, that we have supporters, we have donors who support this movement and you know, that's the thing that, what I say that sometimes we Scandinavians kind of like overemphasize things, culture thing and how hard it is to live outside the state church. I mean there are Lutherans, there are other Christians in other countries that kind of are in a similar kind of situation that they live in denomination or a church where the thing is actually collapsing or becoming a dumpster fire in a sense. And there's a lot of questions and for me it's more of like what my question is that I especially draw the line on my kids that's like my first vocation is to have them that they get to preach, they get to hear the gospel preached and to make sure they are somewhere where that happens. And then there are other considerations to take and you can take other options. But that's, like, the first priority for me at least.
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A
I mean, I think that's the right one. That was. I mean, even here in Big Bear, for our context, that was the big first movement. While there were problems at. Major, major problems at this church before we came, but finally made the whole family unit up here dig their heels in, was the kids and a need to make for less resistance to regularly attending church and have to do something about it. So I think that's respectful.
- [32:25]
C
And now we have discussions like all other churches do. Like, those kids were pretty loud in church.
- [32:32]
B
Yeah.
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A
I had to tell my grandma she was being old last night because she was complaining about kid noise at church. And I was like, this is why churches don't have kids in them, because your generation still runs it and you don't like noise.
- [32:43]
B
Yeah.
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C
To be fair, when I took Edmund out, it's because he was whacking his little baby brother with a edge of sketch, not because he was making noise.
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A
Nice. So theologically, it seems interesting, like the state church and its influence, still that seems apparent, like, positive, and why people would support it or why you would have confirmation. Seems like that would be wrapped up in the sort of, like, social care and welfare of people in Finland and sort of the moral values of Christianity that help hold Western societies together. And sort of like not ignoring the fact that the positive human. The human positive things we have going on with government come first and foremost from Christianity and Christian values. But outside of that, what is like the theological landscape as far as confessional Lutheranism, what would that mean in Finland? Is that distinct from how Americans would envision that as far as preachers, pastors with a bishop system, you know, do congregations have much say over if they get, you know, a guy who is aligned more with a social sort of Lutheranism or a confessional commitment? How does that play out?
- [34:05]
B
Well, yeah, I think when we have, like, a witness of, like, one dominant church in a culture, it kind of tends to lose its, like, identity. It kind of tends to blend and try to accommodate everyone. So I would say that, like the state church, Luduhen, State Church of Finland, it's actually branded itself as the church in Finland. And there's been good points from other Christians that that's incredibly arrogant to say that this is the church in Finland, but that's true in a sense that the state church has kind of tried to have all kinds of streams of Christianity within them. So there's like my bishop is, I think he would be like 99999.9% Anglican. So he's. And you know, other stuff as well. So like people stay within the state church not even if their theological convictions will be very different but it might be more like social, cultural thing that they stay within the sturge. But then they are especially in the renewable movements are very. There's clearly a confessional movements and then there's different streams of Lutheranism here. Pietism isn't as much of a dirty word here as it might be in the United States. We kind of tend to differentiate that Pietists are like Christians who want to emphasize on scripture and preaching and having like a living for you type of Christianity within the state church. And the other group is radical pietists and that's the people who went to America like historically and became so like
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A
the ancient clericalists and stuff like that.
- [36:16]
B
Yeah, shallow emotionalism and anti doctrinal and stuff like that. And you know it comes up in Christianity I think in every church. But traditionally pietism has mean like a positive thing in Finnish Christianity. So that's been more like a. That's the thing that's keeping the state church parish alive. That's the people who are working the hardest. That's the people who are. So it means more like the name
- [36:48]
A
of service in an actual sense like religious piety as in people dedicated to really living directly and forward facing religious lives.
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B
Yeah, yeah, I would say so. So that's, it's more like, yeah, living piety like and you know, for you type of Christianity.
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A
So okay, probably similar to what we would experience with like really involved evangelical churches in America where like there's a lot of group impersonal Bible studies happening, small groups happening at people's houses, things like that. You know they would be reading a lot of scripture at home and together and things like that.
- [37:28]
B
Yeah, that's, that's. I think that's a fair, fair comparison. And, and, and it's actually, it's actually funny. One of our like AFLM close associates or organizations, it's called leaf Lutheran Evangelical association of Finland. Great friends for us. They are actually the ones who translated the Lutheran Confessions into Finnish. So the state church actually never had a role. They have the confessions on their website now but the original translations about the Lutheran Confessions and also like the bondage at will was done by these renewable movements.
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C
So
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B
I think that's like a concrete way of showing how it's these movements that Kind of kept the Lutheranism alive inside the Lutheran church.
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A
So then maybe it's good to explain what Finnish Lutheran mission is and qualify kind of. I think it's interesting that the renewal movements that are confessional and doing things in Finland, in Sweden and in lots of places, they take up this word mission or missional as the back end, which tends to mean, from what I pick up, something different than the mission forward organizations in the United States, which usually to listeners who find themselves on the missional side of American Lutheranism, I'm not trying to offend too much, but they're usually the ones that say we need to downplay the confessions or we're not going to forward face our Lutheranism because it gets in the way of being missional. We have the pure teaching of the gospel and more people need to hear that in America. And so we should be flexible on Lutheran traditions and documents and history with people so that we're not creating false barriers to, to that. So it's usually associated with actually being less confessional or maybe bait and switching things like the Confessions. Or you say, you know, you wouldn't talk about the small catechism very much, but you might still hold on to the content of it or you would change the music and the liturgy because the traditions that Lutheranism have are unimportant compared to getting people the gospel or something like that. But in your guys context it seems to mean something else.
- [39:58]
B
Well, it usually means foreign missions. Like Alpha Lam does missionary work in Japan, Ethiopia. There are a couple of countries that I'm not allowed to say on Internet but you know, Muslim majority, former Soviet type of dictatorships. For us it usually means, you know, doing foreign missions. So flm, Finnish Lutheran Mission kind of started out as it started in 1967 and it started out as this kind of amalgam of different kinds of people. So it's people wanting to realign and renew the state church. Then it's some people really enthusiastic about, not enthusiastic as you know, as Luther would have said, but you know, it's just really excited about doing foreign missions. And then there was actually, I think it's really funny, but there was actually at the start of like early flm, there was a large like a Jesus hippie movement and that kind of like become part of. It's funny to see some of my older people in the flm, like when you find old photos of them, like, is this really you? Wow, you had a lot of hair back then. And that was the FLM thing, that doing this like a Jesus, hippie, evangelistic type of stuff in the early years. But Avalon's gone like several different phases I would say. But what kind of carries from the beginning to this day is that we're committed to doing mission in Finland, preaching Christ here to everyone, but also sending out people to preach Christ to the ends of the world. And it kind of flows back and forth how I kind of feel it that when I do youth work and we kind of talk about missions and going abroad and doing missions, then I usually end up losing some of my best people because they get excited about doing missions. But, but we gain a lot by working with other churches and working with other Christians in other countries. So that's, that's been like a, that's our thing.
- [42:26]
C
But there's a, there's a significant part of the movement that is within Finland too. I mean your job is, is with the youth. I mean we. The thing I was at was it 350 high school to like. I'd say it seems like high school to like junior college in our context kind of age youth and young adults over Easter weekend. And it was interesting, Caleb. I'd say to me it's kind of like it seemed like a kind of higher things like where the, the talks and the education was, were very serious. The worship service at least on Easter was very liturgical, but not like a praying the hours kind of thing like can kind of happen in higher things, you know. And then there's. Within Helsinki there's a, there's a theological school there that or I, you know, in my context from the uk I think it'd be called a house of studies there that, you know, has. Maintains a very decent, seemed like maybe 20, 30,000 volume theological library, a place for students to study and I think a place for more confessional students attending the University of Helsinki to come and have interactions and lectures and seminars and access to the theological library and conversations with confessional Lutheran theologians that they might not get completely at the University of Helsinki. So there's that internal work there going on. And even at the campus where Tony is now, I mean I met a guy that does apologetics, a guy that does foreign mission that trains kind of like Bible school students in apologetics, foreign missions work. And you had three emphasis. I forgot what the third one was. But a lot of this does happen within Finland too, although you can totally tell that they've maintained the take the gospel to the whole world aspect of the Great Commission to.
- [44:29]
B
Yeah, well, that's like I said, we are committed to both of these Things. And that was actually one of the phases of what Athlone went through. I think in 1970s that some people felt that we should focus more on what we do in Finland instead of doing what we do abroad. But then some people felt that we should do more foreign missions instead of doing things in Finland. And, you know, the. Created a new organizations. And I think, you know, Paul and Barnabas went to, you know, separate ways at one point in the Bible. And that created Christ was preached to more places because of that. So. But, you know, Aflam thing has been that we want to maintain both our work in Finland where we preach Christ, and the ends of the oil world casting.
- [45:23]
A
We can start closing out. But I guess the question is, what do you think the positive, the most positive thing happening? We talked about some of the changes, secularization looking different. Certainly it sounds like a push for, as you were saying, the acceptance of gay marriage in the church and things like that. But is there as maybe like the people concerned with those issues shrink or not wanting to cave to culture or broader society get smaller? What do you see as a positive, like the positive push forward for the truth of the gospel or, you know, sacramental Lutheranism in Finland?
- [46:06]
B
Well, I gotta see that every crisis also carries some possibilities and opportunities as well. And, you know, God can use anything for his glory and to advance the kingdom. So I think if the future is what it seems to be leading to, is that these renewal movements will start becoming. Acting as alternative churches, alternative ecclesial structures, or how do you want to word that? But if that's the direction, I think it also holds a lot of opportunities that we might end up having a lot of new churches in Finland where Christ is preached, the sacraments are administered. Because what I feel about it, we've been kind of like a little stagnated in a way that when everyone is Lutheran, no one is really Lutheran or it doesn't really mean anything. So. So I think that even though there's like a crisis going on and a lot of people might be distressed about it and about. Should we fight more inside the statures to maintain like a biblical view of marriage? I don't know. But anyway, I know if we just keep to the. We keep the Bible, we keep the commandments, we keep the promises Christ has given us, I think the future is really bright and that's gonna. We're gonna have good things in the future.
- [47:43]
C
So, I mean, I'm just gonna add a little thing to that because it would be in. From Tony's perspective, it would Kind of probably sound like him tooting his own horn or being a little braggadocious, which a Finn is never gonna do. The 300 and some odd youth to young adults that were at this thing over Easter were very impressive. They were just very impressive. The number of students that were willing to come and sit for an hour and get a pretty heady lecture on the solas of the Reformation and a pretty heady lecture on the bondage of the will and then stay afterwards too long because they were getting into coffee fellowship hour, which is bad news in Finland. But to stay after and just ask question after question after question or engagement. And the one thing I'll say, and I'm going to sound a little mean to teenagers and young adults and everything, but that sometimes happens when you're at, like, a higher things and you get sort of like, the ultra nerdy kids will stick around and ask you some questions. You know, this guy's going to seminary someday, and he's the one that's asking you all the questions. This was a broad spectrum of young, young people. This was like, you know, the guy that you can tell spends three hours a day lifting weights in the gym. The nerdy kid, the girl who probably, you know, beyond getting educated, wants to be a mom. You know, it was a broad spectrum and it was impressive. And then sort of once they sort of loosened up, you know, just. Even the conversations over mealtimes and whatnot were. If I were kind of in Finland and being like, oh, what's going on here? If you spent this time there, you'd have more hope than you did before you got there, because you'd know. And they'd ask questions like, man, my. My pastor, my priest isn't very good. I'm really trying to find. I can't ask him these questions because he doesn't believe in a lot of this. And I want to find a faithful church. And this is somebody who's like 17 talking about finding a faithful church that gives hope.
- [49:38]
A
That's pretty encouraging.
- [49:40]
B
We got amazing teenagers here. That's not my doing. They're amazing and God is amazing. And it was really impressive that the guys who spent three hours in the gym lifting weights, I think they came up to you and they asked you that, so how much do you pinch?
- [50:00]
C
Yeah, how much do you pinch?
- [50:01]
B
Yeah. And that's like the Finnish bro code way of saying that you're really cool and we like you.
- [50:08]
C
My personal trainer was trying to really push that limit today, by the way.
- [50:14]
A
Well, that's great. Yeah, that sounds Tony, thank you very much for coming on the show. I hope this is interesting for people. And I think we've been emailing back and forth and there might be some more interesting guests, too, that we can get on from Finland, too, to talk about. People maybe saw some stuff in the news about free speech and religious speech in Finland as well, and I think that would be very interesting for our audience to kind of see what happens when you have a state and a church and. And speech laws and how that works.
- [50:50]
C
I think we should have him back on and maybe have Hoyaman too, and do, like, the Finnish school stuff.
- [50:56]
A
Some monument.
- [50:59]
C
We've never gone too deep into that, and it was an influential movement even here in America for a while. And then we can really also maybe do so on, like, Crack the Lestadian Nut and Caleb and the whole nine yards.
- [51:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. Your lecture, I think, is on YouTube about the Finnish. You commented on Finnish school there.
- [51:22]
C
Yeah, I tried.
- [51:23]
B
This is really good.
- [51:25]
C
I tried.
- [51:26]
A
Well, hey, thank you for listening to this episode of the Thinking Fellows podcast. If you enjoyed this, or if you're a longtime listener and you just kind of grab it an episode at a time, do not forget to subscribe to this show. You can also share it with family, friends, people at church, maybe your pastor, somebody you know might be interested in some of these questions or what Lutheranism is looking like in other places in the west besides America. Give us something else to think about besides our own Lutheran problems here in America. It's actually refreshing to know that America does not have to be the. The center of Lutheranism upon which everything revolves. So it's good to hear from you. Thank you for coming on, Tony, and we'll catch you next time.
- [52:06]
C
Bye.