Why You Should Have a Low Anthropology

Summary

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Thinking Fellows: "Why You Should Have a Low Anthropology"

Date: April 19, 2022
Hosts: Caleb Keith, Scott Keith, Adam Francisco
Episode Theme:
A rich discussion on the theological and practical significance of "low anthropology"—the Christian perspective that humans are inherently sinful and inclined toward self-interest. The hosts examine this doctrine’s scriptural basis, push back against both cultural optimism and despair, and reflect on its importance for the church and individual Christian life.

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Main Theme Overview

This episode explores why a "low anthropology"—a realistic, perhaps even pessimistic, view of human nature—is both honest and essential from a Christian perspective. Drawing on classic doctrines like original sin and total depravity, the hosts argue that acknowledging human brokenness isn't just a theological stance but a practical mindset for daily life, engagement with culture, and understanding the gospel.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining "Low Anthropology" (03:15–06:31)

• Scott Keith: The phrase "low anthropology" was popularized by David Zahl and Mockingbird, even appearing on bumper stickers (03:12).
• A low anthropology reflects “the Christian view of sin, a sort of historically orthodox Christian view…to acknowledge that all people are born sinful and short of the glory of God” (03:39).
• It's mistaken to equate total depravity with sociopathy—it means that sin pervades every aspect of human nature, not that everyone is as bad as possible.
• Even the most outwardly moral or sanctified people remain sinners until the resurrection: “They're redeemed sinners.” (05:30)

Scott: “I’m appalled, but not surprised” when any public figure is revealed as sinful. (06:36)

Contrasting "Low" vs. "High" Anthropology (06:37–09:53)

• The hosts discuss how personal disappointment (e.g., over JFK's infidelity) demonstrates high anthropology—expecting moral greatness in others.
• Recognizing that everyone is actively self-interested and sinful daily is the heart of low anthropology (08:10).

Caleb: “It's not just that everybody's capable of bad...every single person is guilty of it and actively committing self-interested sinful acts every single day without fail.” (08:46)

• It’s reasonable to expect decency of close acquaintances, but not strangers or public figures seen only via media (08:55).

The Corrosive Power of Fame & Power (09:56–11:34)

• Fame increases a person’s tendency to “believe their own rhetoric”—fewer checks on willfulness (09:56).
• Tony Hawk cited: “The worst drug on the planet is fame.” (10:54)

Implications for Cultural Engagement & Christian Witness (11:34–14:24)

• Adam Francisco discusses how a low anthropology should make Christians less surprised by depravity in culture and less invested in “culture wars” (11:37).
• Reference to 1 John 1:8–10—denying sin is self-deception and makes God a liar (13:19).

Scott: “If you walk around acting like...you're shocked when the rest of the world isn't [perfect], you're literally making Christ out to be a liar...” (13:52)

Biblical Support for a Low View of Human Nature (14:54–19:41)

• Paul, Galatians 5—“acts of the flesh are obvious” (14:54), not surprising.
• Luther’s era: even in “Christian” societies, blatant public immorality prevailed (16:34).
• Christianity doesn’t thrive or falter with societal morals; the gospel has flourished even amidst widespread debauchery (17:13).
• Cultural improvement movements often reflect semi-Pelagian optimism—a belief in an improvable, recoverable spark of goodness in human nature (17:39).

Caleb: “The difference between a decent person and a bad person is the amount of striving, awareness, church attendance...that there's something recoverably good inside...” (18:33)

Real Transformation—By Gospel, Not Moral Effort (19:18–21:26)

• Jesus in Mark 7—evils come from within, not external influences (19:18).
• Real change requires a new heart, a new spirit—only given by God through resurrection/new creation (20:36).
• Children’s hymn “This Little Light of Mine”—the true “light” is not innate in us, but is the gospel killing and making alive (21:04).

Responding to Culture & the Limits of "Saving" the World (21:26–25:58)

• Hating immorality is appropriate, but every era (including ours) has its unique sins (21:26).
• Christians shouldn't conflate societal prosperity (e.g., in America) with the success or purity of the gospel; civilizations rise and fall but the church and the gospel persist (25:44).

Vocation vs. Salvation—Serving the Present World (27:11–29:46)

• Preserving “Western civilization” is vocational (i.e., for the neighbor’s good), not salvific.
• Every government and civilization eventually falls—another reason to maintain a sober view of humanity (28:14).

Scott: “There is not one example in human history of a...good government lasting forever.” (28:21)

Living in a Post-Christendom Era (30:23–34:38)

• The church is no longer privileged as in the "Christendom" era, and Christians must adapt to being outsiders.
• The decline of Christian privilege is not to be celebrated, but it should temper shock over secular values dominating society.
• Privileges like clergy tax-exempt status are remnants of Christian dominance—soon to vanish (32:29).

Adam: “Why would it surprise us that non-Christian theists, atheists...would not give two rips about what the local pastor says about topic X, Y, and Z?” (34:17)

The Dangers of High Anthropology in Christian Life (35:11–40:12)

• It's easy to focus on others’ sins, ignoring subtler sins like pride or self-satisfaction (self-righteousness).
• Even gratitude or affirmation can stoke the “old Adam” of pride.
• The Reformation’s heart: salvation is not about “doing what is in you”—what’s in you is corrupt. Righteousness is alien, from outside, received by faith (38:50–39:37).

Adam: “Luther came to realize very quickly that what is in you is dark, it's evil, it's really bad... That righteousness is not... some spark... you just need to fan into flame. You need... an alien righteousness..." (39:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Scott Keith: “I’m appalled, but not surprised.” (06:36)
• Caleb Keith: “It's not the world making you bad.” (19:39)
• Adam Francisco: “Why would it surprise us that non Christian theists, atheists or Wiccans...would not give two rips about what the local pastor says...?” (34:17)
• Scott Keith: “There is not one example in human history of a...good government lasting forever.” (28:21)
• Adam Francisco: “Luther came to realize...what is in you is dark, it's evil, it's really bad...you need an alien righteousness...that’s the heart and soul of the Reformation.” (39:36)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:12 — Introduction and definition of "low anthropology"
• 06:36 — On not being surprised by public figures’ sins
• 09:56 — Fame’s corrupting influence; Tony Hawk quote
• 13:19 — 1 John 1:8–10—denying sin makes God a liar
• 14:54 — Galatians 5—“acts of the flesh are obvious”
• 19:18 — Mark 7, evil comes from within
• 21:04 — “This Little Light of Mine” discussed
• 25:44 — Conflating American prosperity and gospel effectiveness
• 28:21 — No government lasts forever
• 32:29 — The end of “Christendom” and Christian privilege
• 34:17 — Why be surprised at secular society’s values?
• 39:36 — Luther and the Reformation’s “alien righteousness”

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Tone & Style

Throughout, the conversation maintains a friendly, witty, and sometimes self-deprecating tone, with the hosts balancing theological seriousness and humor (“I have a bumper sticker that says low anthropology,” “the great philosopher Tony Hawk”). They speak directly and candidly about the realities of sin, resisting both despair and naiveté.

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Takeaway

Embracing a “low anthropology” isn’t about pessimism or disengagement—it’s about realism. Recognizing the pervasive brokenness of human nature keeps Christians grounded, humble, and reliant on Christ’s alien righteousness, rather than surprised by the world or invested in utopian culture wars. This view properly orients believers in both their gospel proclamation and their daily service to others: “Ultimately, God’s going to judge… we’re all going to fall short if we’re left up to our own devices.” (27:11)

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hello there and welcome to the thinking fellows podcast. My name is Caleb and the thinking fellows is brought to you by the 1517 podcast network of shows. You can go to 1517. Org podcasts to see all of our shows. I'm joined today by my father, Dr. Scott Keith, and by Dr. Adam Francisco, our regular hosts. We are still doing our why you should series and as we do this, you know, I do this introduction. It's the same three guys every week, but we will bring in some guests. We're planning episodes where we can bring people from the fellowship at 15:17 onto the show to talk about their expertise and maybe some people who aren't in the fellowship but are friends of the fellowship as well. So I think this will become a very good series, you know, right up there with like the long standing series that everybody remember, like the LOI series and our apologetic series or our great thinkers of the Christian church series. So I think this, this one has some potential in my mind and I think what is this? This will be week number five of these episodes. So not too bad.

[B]

Will this come out before Arkansas or after?

[A]

This will come out the week of our event in Arkansas, so before the conference and whatever we record there will end up being what comes out after.

[C]

The conference in Arkansas. So Arkansas.

[A]

So yes. So hello. If you are joining us in Arkansas this week, we will be very happy to see you. We should be floating around the conference on Friday and Saturday. So if you would like to say hi, I'm sure you can find. Find us hiding in the back somewhere.

[B]

Hiding.

[A]

Yeah, hiding. Hiding in the back. Today we are going to do a cool one. You know, last episode just ended so perfectly actually in our conversation in an excursus about sin. And that wasn't planned at all. So that's lucky. Which is we're going to do an episode on why you should have a low anthropology. And first we'll do some work to define what a low anthropology is. Maybe specifically name the Christian doctrines that this pertains to and then talk about the why you should believe that this is the case situation. So dad, you like using the phrase low anthropology? It's sort of a simile to saying you should believe that all people are sinful. But it perhaps is a little more specific or a little more psychological for people to understand today. I think it sort of has a. Uses postmodern language with the anthropology.

[B]

I actually have a bumper sticker or something that says low anthropology.

[C]

I got the phrase from Dave Zahl, who I believe is writing a book entitled low Anthropology.

[A]

And he's the one who has the stickers, I think.

[C]

And it was through Mockingbird they published the stickers that said low anthropology, which is interesting because on the whole I believe my anthropology is lower. But that's fine. At the end of the day you.

[A]

Live in a very dark world.

[C]

I do. But at the end of the day, to say that one has a low anthropology is basically just to, I think, to incorporate into the way you view the world and humanity a Christian view of sin, a sort of historically orthodox Christian view of sin, which is to acknowledge that all people are born sinful and short of the glory of God and that the consequence of that is that in most circumstances or when left to their own devices, people will not act or think or, you know, in accordance with God's will and plan, but in rather in accordance with their own will and plan. You could sort of say that this is just sort of selfishness. It's not. We, it's not just that in sort of Christian theology we, and especially within Lutheran circles and sort of Reformationally Reformed circles will sometimes call this the doctrine of total depravity, that people are totally depraved. When you say that, I think people conjure up in their minds the idea that we're all sociopaths. And that is again not what that means. It simply means that everybody is sinful and that the number one expression of being sinful is an expression of self will rather than following the will and desires that God has for you and your life and other people and so on and so forth. Now this expresses itself sort of in life, in varying degrees in other people, but for people, you know, some people may outwardly at least seem much more moral than other people and, and hopefully a lot of people that you run into that at least outwardly are, quote, unquote, much more moral, are Christian, right? Because they have, they have come to faith in Jesus Christ as their only hope for salvation. And as with that has come the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit has sanctified them, and so on and so forth. But still we acknowledge that even those people, until they rise again in glory, or they, or Jesus comes again before they, they die in this life, they still remain sinners, even though we say they're saints and redeemed, they're redeemed sinners. How this plays out in your day to day life for me is that, you know, I, I very rarely have let me, how should I say it this way, when I hear, for instance, that a politician or a let's even say a famous pastor.

[A]

Did something horrible.

[C]

Did something horrible. I'm appalled, but not surprised.

[A]

Yeah, never, never surprised.

[C]

Yeah, you never go, I can't believe that great person would xyz. In fact, here's a better example of it. I don't know. Ruffner showed me this, this thing that's going around the Internet of a kid who got an F on a paper that he wrote about John F. Kennedy because he focused on the fact that John F. Kennedy was like a massive adulterer, right? And my mom, who's of the age that John F. Kennedy was a very prominent president in her early adult years, said, oh, we were all so disappointed because it seemed like they had the perfect little family. And I'm like, that's now. So in a sense that's an expression of her, at least at that point in her life, having a high anthropology, right. That the pictures that she saw in the media, the media of John F. Kennedy and his family just made her believe that he was just this, this good person above all other people that you would really want to know and you'd really want to meet. You will hear the same thing from people about FDR if, if they were alive during Franklin Delano Roosevelt's presidency, right? And then when they find out that in both cases of FDR and John F. Kennedy that they likely were not faithful. Not likely. They were. Neither one of them were faithful to their wives and to their family. And they're, they're heavily disappointed now I'd say. And surprised now I'd say you can be disappointed in their behavior without being massively shocked that a sinner acted sinfully.

[A]

And so that's, I think, yeah, the reason this is important is because, I mean we just got to say it. Most people, in fact on a day to day, most of us probably operate, even if we don't believe this, with the idea that most people are inherently good, right? Or that there is mostly like if people are semi bad, that they're mostly good. And I actually think with a low anthropology, if we're going to use this phrase, we actually have to say not just that everybody's capable of bad, everybody's capable of evil, but that everybody, every single person is guilty of it and actively committing self interested sinful acts every single day without fail, without exception.

[C]

And let me connect. I also want to clarify that I think it's very, it's not so naive to expect decent things out of people that you know, to be decent, like personally know to be decent. They may still Struggle with sin. But their struggle with sin lands on them trying to act decently towards their, their fellow, the pe. You know, their neighbor. Right. And you know them, you interact with them frequently. Often you, you have a general sense of their general character and how they, they comport themselves and everything. It's, it's, it's one thing to expect decent things out of those people. It's a completely another thing to expect decency out of people that you don't know at all. And that you're only sort of getting a, you know, best case scenario representation of, on Instagram or whatever these days. And I, I just, I never expect that.

[A]

Yeah, I even think with.

[C]

I'm rarely surprised when I hear that, you know, a fame, especially famous person because there's, there's a, there's, there's something to the axiom that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You know, the more, the more famous you get, the more powerful you get, the more you sort of begin to believe your own rhetoric about yourself and the more danger of that sin, sort of that as defined as not following God's will, but sort of following your own willfulness. The more opportunity you have to follow your own willfulness without being questioned about it, the more opportunity you will have to be just even that more willful person. I was watching a Tony Hawk documentary the other day. Tony Hawk is a professional skateboarder. He's not a powerful person by any right, being a skateboarder. Right. But he is the most famous skateboarder of all time. And even he in that documentary says the worst drug on the planet is fame.

[A]

Really?

[C]

Yeah, he said, and his, and his level of fame is high, but it's below like a lot of people. Right. Most people would probably know who Tony Hawk is, but not all people. You're not talking about, you know, he's not the most popular actor in the world or anything like that. And he would even say that fame because when the more famous you are, the fewer people you have around you telling you that your behavior is crap and the more sort of willingness you are to follow that, that willfulness of your own, which is the definition of sin. And on and on and on. And so thus I'm never surprised because my anthropology is so low.

[A]

Yeah, I think. Go ahead, Adam.

[B]

I'll jump in a little bit. I really like the way you describe that and what it made me kind of think of is how not too long ago. So I've been doing these, my latest sort of lectures, if you will have been On Christ and culture, what does it mean to be a Christian living in, but not being of the world and so on. And one of the points I've made that's gotten a little pushback because everybody wants to fight culture wars and is that when we, you know, when we see this stuff, you know, the latest stuff, you know, that just seems so out of the box or crazy or whatever is, you know, with our anthropology, none of this should surprise us yet.

[C]

It can still be appalling.

[B]

And I think that's disgusting. And certainly some of it has to in invocation, you know, it has to be addressed. I think we, but, but being like shocked that people do odd things with their, their boys and girl parts or that they advocate for different scenario, domestic scenarios and so on and so forth, I don't know. I mean, if we're, if we're all by nature sinful and unclean, if we're enemies of God and so on, why would it surprise us that people are advocating for and pushing for those sorts of things?

[C]

Can we chase that down a little bit? Because I, I, okay, I'm not on the socials for any substantial way, but one of the criticisms of. You always have to snark at me. One of the criticisms of us on the socials has been that we don't engage, that we're not, like, we're not shocked enough by the debauchery of our current world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On either side. Right.

[C]

And then we don't engage it enough. Let me just say I'm not shocked by it. And if you are shocked by it, I don't think you've been paying attention to the state of humanity over the course of the last 10,000 recorded years. And that's just my point. I was just looking at verses on this. First John 1, 8, 10, I think hits it on the head. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he was faithful and just, will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But if we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. In other words, if you sort of walk around acting like not only are you so perfect, but that you're shocked when the rest of the world isn't, you're literally making Christ out to be a liar because the reason he came was because of the dreadful state of our sinfulness. And not just our sinfulness, but the sinfulness of all mankind. If You.

[A]

I think that's amazing, the liar part, because I mean, right. That that's making. Making God a liar is bad. But then say that to yourself. This is something like, if this is untrue, God is a liar. That goes against your basic hope and faith that God is not lying to you about, you know, the resurrection from the dead, the forgiveness of your sins, you know, the who, what and where of Jesus accomplishments and promises for you. If he's lying about this, he's a liar.

[C]

Paul In Galatians 5, the Acts of the flesh are obvious. Now he's not. Listen, Paul has a low anthropology here because he's not saying the acts of the flesh are surprising and we never see them anywhere. So we should be just shocked when we do see them and just think to ourselves, we really have to fight for our society here in every aspect because this is so surprising. No, they're not surprising. They're obvious. What are they? Sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery. Sound familiar? Anyone? Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage. Cancel culture. Anyone? Selfish ambition, dissension, factions. We're in the most factional period in our history and envy, drunkenness, orgies and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now, if Paul is saying that these acts are obvious 2,000 years ago, right. And they're shown not only in society, but he's warning that these are often shown in the church. And this is a big problem. It's not that we ought not be appalled when we see them now, but we got to stop running around acting like this has never been seen before. Right. And the. That it's imperative that our society as a civil society continue on whatever path we thought it was when it was a quote unquote, Christian America or the gospel is going to die, because it's not.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It carried on in this drunkenness and debauchery during Roman society that Paul was living in. And the gospel thrived, that society crashed and it. And the church was the institution that lasted through it. And God kept a remnant of the gospel through that too, through to the Reformation. And then the gospel thrived. But there is debauchery even in that time. As Luther. I've quoted Luther many times saying that when he first got to Wittenberg, he couldn't cross the street without tripping over a syphilitic monk.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's like we.

[A]

How many children did the various popes have?

[B]

I've never Heard that?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So again, it's not that we're not appalled by these things going on in our society, but my anthropology is such that I would say one, whether or not you fix these things in our society is not going to be a marker of whether the Gospel thrives. And two, maybe our society was never what you thought it was in the first place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think one of the worries is if you think that the low anthropology is sort of too bleak or the rejection of it is, doesn't leave room for human accomplishment, human improvement and things, you're really spending time trying to advocate for a type of what we would call semi pelagianism. You are trying to find that spark that is recoverable and in many cases, the Christian culture war that we see today responding to. I mean, you made some modern, you know, comparisons to the things, things that Paul was talking about today are in the New Testament, but is to find that spark where Christianity can come and inspire people to act on the goodness that's inside of them, that there's a war being waged inside of you between your high anthropology and your low anthropology. And it doesn't matter what percentage that is. But Christianity is a solution because it can inspire, provoke and remind people or educate people on how to become a good creature, a high. A high anthropologic being. I think that's the problem with not even those who aren't shocked. But in seeking our answer is to look at decent people and go look at them. The difference between a decent person and a bad person is the amount of striving, is the amount of awareness, amount of church attendance, the amount of whatever it is, is all trying to say there's something recoverably good inside of people that is, that expands and grows.

[C]

Right. Except for Mark 7, he went on. What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of the person's heart, that evil thoughts come. Sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All of these evils come from inside and defile a person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not the world making you bad.

[C]

No. Thus, if there is to be a change, it's not this driving. It's that this inside actually has to be changed somehow. Now, how is the inside changed, you ask? Well, the only promise that we have of changing that heart at all, that is the inside there that Jesus is referring to is by the proclamation of the Gospel, which is, we are told, has the miraculous Didymus power. To bring a person to faith in Christ. You see, it's by the breaking of the will. It's by the breaking of the will that strives towards its own end. This. This will that needs to be killed. That actually there can be some change brought about on the heart. It's not by striving.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Well, and actually not just change on the heart, but here's Ezekiel, Right.

[C]

And I will give you a new heart resurrection.

[A]

I will give you a new heart, a new spirit that I will put in you.

[C]

That's a good question.

[A]

Yeah. And so this is why when we talk about preaching, we talk about killing and making alive, you're not actually taking and improving. Like, you know, in the. In the Reformation, we talk about. Or even we have the, you know, the children song, the hymn. This Little light of Mine, you know, I have a. That's supposed to be the gospel. Yeah. I'm gonna let it shine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We imagine that that light is in. Is. Is me. Right. Is this little thing in me. It's not actually the word. There's a light inside of you, and you're gonna let it shine. How are you gonna let it shine? By being good. You know, by. By defying the low anthropology. That light, you know, that little light is supposed to be the gospel which kills and makes alive the word of God.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which actually starts over it actually. This is. Go back to our last episode is Death and Resurrection.

[C]

Yeah. Well, let me clarify here. I'm on the side of hate. Hashtag hate. The immorality of our culture. Like, just in case you're wondering.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Out there, raising.

[A]

Raising children in an environment that is so blatantly immoral is, like, very difficult.

[C]

I just. I'm aware enough of American history to know that there have been things of equal import to hate about American culture in every generation, that this one is bad. And it's. I would even say it's uniquely bad for our experience. I don't think it's uniquely bad in the span of human history, but it's uniquely bad in our experience. And I. You know, I am with Paul here in Colossians when he says, put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature. Sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, greed, which is idolatry. Because of these. The wrath of God is coming. But the wrath of God is coming. I mean, I. Let's. Let's say this. I believe in the eternal judgment. I believe that Christ will come again and he will judge and all of these things that appall us now will be judged. And this is why the promise that this, this earth as we know it now corrupted by sin, will not last forever. I just can't stand it when Christians act like it's that this earth that we know now is the one that needs to be saved and that it has potential to be saved, because we know that this earth is not the end. We know that Christ will come again and he will judge and the sheeps will go on his right and the goats will go on his left, and this world will become crashing to an end and there will be a new heaven and a new earth in which we reside as those who have faith in Christ with Him forever. Now, in saying that I believe this world can't be saved, that doesn't mean that I don't think that the life of my neighbors can't be affected positively by me being. Acting as though I'm called to serve them, because I am. It's that it's the world saving prospect that even Christians have gotten a hold of that is just disgusting. There is one Savior. His name is Christ.

[A]

Well, I don't think Christians just gotten a hold of, but the history of the history of the prosperity of the west and Christianity's sort of role in. In the development of the west sort of means it's innate to how Christianity and Christians have socially functioned in the world. If you listen to sort of, or you read about, like, the founding of America, right, There's a transition that like, even the Founding Fathers go through where they think the American project will thrive because there's uniquely moral and educated people. And then like a couple years later, there's like, accounts from Washington and John Adams and where they're like, I was wrong. The American people are incredibly deplorable. I had no idea how deplorable people were. And you just, like, you had no idea how deplorable the population was. Like, you just hung out with like, your very educated buddies a little too much.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Right. And even they ended up, many of them hating each other over, you know, discourse and lying and stuff. But the history of the west has convinced us that, like, it is our moral standing that allows our political thriving, our social thriving, all of this. And Christianity and Christian ethics in actually helping vocationally provide a pretty stable world has contributed to that belief. Because you preach that apart from the actual proclamation of the law and the actual proclamation of the gospel, and you just have sort of a 10 Commandment Society and you have a bunch of people not getting arrested every day, the majority of your Population are getting arrested every day. You get to be convinced that things are pretty okay for the most part until you sort of get social media and you can see not just what your neighbors are doing, but what everybody's doing.

[C]

Yeah. Well, to me again, the greatest disgust I have is the connecting of the prosperity of America to the effectiveness of the proclamation of the gospel.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Woe to you.

[A]

I.

[B]

And it might just be, you know, I think, I think it's Romans 1 in the 20s, 27, 28, something like that, where Paul writes that God does turn people over or in a way kind of give. Give up on certain people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And allows their, their regenerate minds.

[C]

To.

[B]

To overcome them, if you will. Well, promise in Scripture that America is, is God's country. I mean, I love America. America.

[C]

You fought for America. Yeah.

[B]

And you guys love America. I love Western civilization. I can at least when I was a professor teaching history, I considered myself a custodian of a sort of Western civ in that I was passing on working at great tradition that's worth preserving compared to other traditions. But there's, that's a temporal sort of value. Ultimately God. God's going to judge America, Western civilization, all people on an even standard. And we're all going to fall short if we're left up to our own devices.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

I think in large part that vocation, that carrying on of the Western sivir, this thing that is a great tradition is vocational because we look at it and we believe from history, the development of the world, evidence, just the quality of life, that this is a tradition that can make it so that your neighbor, you and your neighbor thrive, live healthy, happy lives. That these conditions are good for your children, that these conditions are good for your spouse, that these conditions are good for your co worker. And thus preserving them or teaching them, maintaining them, is vocational. It's actually not a part of making a good person. It's a part of serving your neighbor so that they might have a good life on this earth while this earth is fading.

[C]

But we still, I mean Adam, as the historian can tell us, Adam, what is the fate of every government and civilization given enough time?

[B]

Well, especially democracies, mob rule, disillusion.

[C]

It'll all fall apart.

[B]

Things fall apart.

[C]

Given enough time, it'll all fall apart. Which is another reason to have a low anthropology. There is not one example in human history of a quote unquote good government lasting forever.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If there were, it wouldn't have taken the founding of America, of the United States to have formed Sort of the quote, unquote, most perfect union. It would have already existed and it would have already sustained. This too will pass, you know, and something else will replace it now. I will mourn. I will, if I'm alive when that happens, I will mourn that for sure. But I will mourn it temporally. I mean, I will see it as an evidence of my low anthropology or.

[A]

Of the truth that's in scripture.

[C]

Yeah. Coming to fruition. So I, I don't know. It's not that. It's not that I think that all the cultural wars are useless. I just think, listen, let's listen to Jesus here. Let's listen to Jesus. Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites, you give a tenth of your spices, mint, dill and cumin, but you have neglected the more important matters of law, justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should practice the latter without neglecting the former. You blind guides, you strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. Yeah, I think we swallow a lot of camels.

[A]

I think from a Christian perspective, we probably should, you know, shift from this idea. This is where the shock comes from, like, of good people sometimes do really bad things or good people to that God uses evil people to accomplish good things.

[C]

That was my point earlier. Even with Rome, it's like, I think I'm bad at this. But I believe if you look at our present day and where the Gospel is thriving, it's not thriving in America, it's thriving in Africa. It's thriving, honestly, in Muslim countries.

[B]

Yep. House churches in Muslim countries. It's, it is hard to measure it because it has to be secretive. But the reports that come out is that even in places like Mecca, there are house churches there. And the people there all look like Muslims. They dress like that. But they heard the Gospel in their travels or something. They brought it back to their people and they are slowly but surely spreading the message. The Holy Spirit is doing all the work, but he is using these people as, as the, the mask of God for the sake of the Gospel. I, I so if we go back a little bit to your, yeah, your, you talk about mourning the loss of Western civilization or something like that. My, my father in law has for, for decades. I don't know if you'd want me to use this. He probably wouldn't care, but he, he's often given this talk in one of his main shticks. He's, he's now retired, but he's been trying for, I don't know, 50 years to encourage or, or move Christians who are in his audience to, to think a little differently about their place in a place like America. And one of his key points is, and I think he's on to something is that we kind, we still think in some way we live in Christendom. Yeah, I don't know why anybody would think that first of all, but we, we act as if we. That Christians should be privileged. Another way I've heard it described is President Matt Harrison of the Missouri Synod. He once described our world as being a post Constantinian world. And I think that's actually pretty accurate in terms of nomenclature in that if you think of the arc of church history, Christianity was illegal for about 300 years. It wasn't always persecuted, but there are oftentimes local, sometimes universal persecutions. Then Constantine comes around 313 AD and becomes Emperor and issues the Edict of Milan, which for the first time in the church's history legalizes Christianity. And over the course of that century, by the time you get to the end of the three hundreds, you get a Roman emperor named Theodosius who not only preserves the legalization of Christianity, but elevates Christianity to the status of being the state religion such that Christians are given all sorts of privileges. They have access to state funding, they are given old pagan temples that are converted into churches and so on and so forth. And for centuries, in some way, shape or form, even though Rome would ultimately fall apart, the church because it preserved that sort of Western culture, it dominated or in many ways was like the chief influence of Western civilization for centuries. And now we're living in an era, we have been for some time where that privilege has slowly but surely, and I'm not talking privilege the way a wokester would talk about, but you know that that status is all but lost. I think we'll know it's completely lost when for example, clergy no longer have tax exemptions. That was something that, that Constantine actually originally introduced into Roman law. That's when you know that, that the last vestiges of Christendom are gone. And the more we should. None of us should celebrate this though. I think there are some people who, who maybe do. But if we're gonna have a realistic take on things, we need to know the environment we're working in. Yeah, it shouldn't going back to this low anthropology conversation. Why would it surprise us that non Christian theists, atheists or Wiccans or I don't know what zor. I'm sure there's a lot of Zoroastrians and Rastafarians out there. Why would it surprise us that they would not give two rips about what the local pastor says about topic X, Y and Z? Why would they?

[C]

Why would they?

[B]

It's sort of like the. I always find it funny when. And I, I was probably and maybe still am a little guilty of this. When we, when, when Lutherans, for example, are so shocked that the Baptists believe whatever it is the Baptists believe. It's like, well, why would they. Why would. Wouldn't Baptists believe what Baptists believe? It's not surprising, you know. So I think going again, I'm not stroking your ego, Scott, or trying.

[C]

Go ahead.

[B]

And I know you said that you're not the one who came up with it, but you have a better grasp of it, I think, is how you described that low anthropo rather than the doctrine of original sin. I think I'm going to go with I believe in the doctrine of low anthropology. Yeah, I was, I'm kidding, by the way. I mean, I, yeah. Historic, classic term. But really, if you can get me that bumper sticker, I'll put it right next to the.

[C]

I'll. I'll get to send this. Send me some more. It was kind of funny. I was just thinking about this when you said you didn't want to stroke my eagle. I remember a while ago I, I did a gig being dad and it was in an Anglican church and he was a very awesome reformational Anglican rector at the place. And he came up to me and he said, I know you're. What is it? I know the old Adam in you doesn't need to hear this, but good job. And I thought I said, you know, that's right on. Because at the end of the day, you know, we see all of these. We take these lists of sins that Paul gives us and we focus on the ones that we don't commit, right?

[A]

And say, good job.

[C]

And say, good job. So we hear like this licentiousness, these orgies and all this. We're like, good thing I'm not doing those. But you sort of miss out on like the haughtiness and sort of the fits of rage. Fits of rage and the increased sense of self and everything. And it's great for somebody like the Anglican rector to point out to even me that when somebody comes up and tells me good job on something that I honestly did a good job with, that my, my old Adam rears its ugly head and says, you know what? You're right. I really, I really did do that better than other people could do that, you know, and sort of just kind of go on with it. And even with stand in front of.

[B]

The mirror like Stuart Smalley from Saturday Night Live, I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and God don't dog gone.

[C]

It's like me. Yeah. People like me.

[B]

While you're stroking your hair, you don't have any hair.

[C]

But think about how unchecked this is in just sort of the general population. And think about how much worse it gets when, like the great philosopher Tony Hawk says, when, when fame comes into play. Yeah.

[A]

I mean anything comes into play that tells you that, you know, you're doing. You're a good custodian of the power within you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then. Then you're going to try to use that power more and more. And the real risk is when we lose a preaching of a low anthropology, when we lose the preaching of original sin, total depravity. Like Luther would say, all my deeds are sin. When you lose this preaching, you give power to that power within that people have. And really the problem is from a Christian perspective, not just that has an effect on the society, but that people lose their need for Christ. They lose their need for his death and resurrection, or his death and resurrection becomes just one more piece of being a good custodian of your power. In a lot of churches and a lot of preaching, Christ is either the origin or the helper. Grace, however you want to put this whole, provides you some, some boost to, to being that custodian of the goodness in your innate, in your heart. I like the way that's the real problem.

[B]

The way you put it at the very beginning when you were addressing this, you use the phrase something like doing what is in you. And this is like at the heart of the, the Reformation. You think back when early in Luther's struggles, trying to figure out how to appease an angry God, he, he, you know, there are lots of things he was dealing with, but he, he would constantly refer to how the scholastic. So he didn't use that term. We're teaching that one should, you know, the key to salvation was to fakheri quad ncest to drop a little Latin on you to do what is in you. You know, to do what is in you. And Luther came to realize very quickly that what is in you is dark, it's evil, it's really bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That righteousness is not. There's not some spark of righteousness you just need to fan into flame. You need what Luther would call an alien righteousness a righteousness that's from outside, that's passively received, that's given to you directly or through the Holy Spirit by faith for the sake of Christ. And I mean, that's the heart and soul of the Reformation. That man is saved or made righteous by grace through faith on account of Christ alone, not because of what's within them. Is that a good ending?

[A]

That's kind of a good ending. Adam, is it 2 for 2? Wow. Way to go, man. Yeah. Well, guys, this is perfect timing. Thank you for listening. Like I've said in the past couple episodes, if you have a suggestion for the why you should series, go ahead and send those in via the contact form at 15:17. I'm building the list of episodes that we're going to have on the list of guests and things like that. So as we go forward, we should be able to hit a myriad of topics and revisit topics new and old to the thinking fellows through this lens. We appreciate your listening. If you'd like to support the show, you can follow the link at the top of the show notes or go to1517.org donate. We will catch you next time. Bye. All right.