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[00:02]
Michael
Late night bites with friends already hard
[00:05]
Chris
to beat that first too hot bite of fries you couldn't wait for, followed by ice cold Pepsi. Now that hits different. Suddenly the energy kicks back in, the night goes longer and the laughs don't stop. Because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more
[00:20]
Michael
fun, and more of the moment.
[00:22]
Chris
Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi. Zero sugar today. Hello, gentle listener. The Nocturnal Transmissions podcast, your friendly provider of delightfully dark, short horror fiction, has a new episode available. And it goes a little bit like this. Stella would be in bed by the time he arrived, but he would lean over and kiss her sleeping cheek.
[01:01]
Michael
Then he would undress and climb into bed beside her.
[01:09]
Chris
In the morning, when she woke, Stella would have no idea that it was a stranger who lay beside her in bed. That it was in fact some
[01:23]
Michael
thing
[01:25]
Chris
from off the moors. The Nocturnal Transmissions podcast.
[01:36]
Michael
Come get some.
[01:45]
Chris
And this is, this is the big one. Allegedly a multi agency, you know, osi, nsa, CIA, whatever. He wouldn't name the agencies. I named them. And I was like, these guys, These guys. And he's like, can't say, can't say. Apparently they've thwarted alien abductions, which is like. To me, I'm like, that's gotta be one of the most insane things I've ever heard. And then he gives the background story behind it, the person involved who's apparently testified in Congress in a skiff. And if that story ever comes out, it's going to blow the lid. You know, I had Dr. Julia Mossbridge on recently.
[02:19]
Michael
Oh, awesome. Yeah, yeah.
[02:20]
Chris
And I was able to talk to her at great lengths about this non local omnipresent cloud of information. You want to call it the Akashic records. You want to call it, you know, field, whatever. Yeah, she was a part of GATE program.
[02:34]
Michael
Part of.
[02:35]
Chris
She was given an opaque pink liquid to drink, not to spit out. And she has memory lapses. Her father worked at the Department of Energy. Yeah, it gets really weird.
[02:48]
Michael
No idea.
[02:49]
Chris
So she went and demanded her records from like kindergarten, grade one, grade two, and then found out that her evaluations were redacted. Whoa.
[03:02]
Michael
I think you have one of the most open minded, yet sober views on the phenomenon in general. Which makes you one of my favorite kind of people to talk to. Because. Because of that open mindedness, you're always willing to entertain all kinds of things. But with the sobriety comes like, I don't really need to attach my opinion or my belief to any one of them. And that's like my favorite kind of conversation to have.
[03:25]
Chris
Same here. Same here.
[03:28]
Michael
Yeah, yeah. And I think the conversation is suffering right now because of that. It's like, I don't know if my conviction has gone up one way or the other or in any. It's probably not even one way or the other. It's probably like a 360 degree multi dimensional range of possibilities. But I would say one thing my conviction has gone up on a lot is there being some kind of like narrative manipulation involved as of late? Just because of all the like, weird noise and, and infighting and projection. It just seems, I feel more certain than ever that there are psyops afoot, let's just put it that way.
[04:10]
Chris
I mean, I wouldn't doubt it. I wouldn't doubt that they've, you know, I think they've always kind of been present to an extent. I don't know to what extent. That's always the question. And I don't know. You know, a lot of us might think it's the obvious stuff, like you'd mentioned the infighting or, you know, the back and forths in the community, but perhaps it's even more subtle than that and just algorithm manipulation and that type of thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you're getting fed a certain type of content and you're consuming it six to eight hours a day, that's bound to change how you feel about a certain topic eventually. I think. It wears you down and it brings you, and you know, you can, you can pick your side, but I mean, you can be easily swayed into either side of any spectrum if you're fed information in that way in a consistent manner. And so, yeah, I would, I would say the same, I would say definitely it is present. Maybe, maybe the overt stuff isn't at all what it is though. Like, maybe that's just human nature drama and bickering where people, you know, tend to thrive on, on other people's negative interactions for a varied amount of reasons. But maybe that isn't at all the psyop, you know, maybe it's the stuff that isn't so obvious that you think is uncorruptible. Your own mind, your own feed, your own day to day interactions. That is probably where most of it's
[05:47]
Michael
happening a thousand percent. And that may sound mundane in a way that's like, yeah, but that's boring. I want to talk about like, you know, people within the CIA sitting in a room, like crafting a narrative. And while, yeah, of course that is what a psyop can be, I think we do need to just pause and really ask ourselves if it's mundane at all. Because what you're saying essentially is that we live in a time now where informational ghosts that you don't physically ever interact with get smashed into your face over and over and over again on a daily basis to such an effective degree that you, you don't care about physical reality or not as much. Not as much. Right. Like, we definitely don't care about like what's going on in our local community, you know, you know, even whatever horrible things are going on across the world. It's so much easier to just let those things linger in the back of your mind where you never look, because oh man, this could. You see this dude flipped a watch for 2k in 30 seconds, man. Isn't that crazy? You know, and you can just spend your entire day on inconsequential brain rot that absolutely isolates you from everything, you know, and that's, that is not mundane, man. That is like clear, present. I don't know, brain abduction. In a way that doesn't sound as sexy as UFO abduction, but it's, it's as effective.
[07:25]
Chris
We, we are living in a 1980s sci fi novel currently. We just don't realize it because we're in it. But yeah, absolutely, that manipulation is definitely present. I think we all know that. And that's the funny thing about manipulation too, where it gets so good to a point where you go, yeah, but I don't care. You know, we're all kind of, I guess, sort of, I don't know, we just don't really care about that part of our brain so much. Not, you know, and I'm victim to it as well. I think we all are to an extent. But it's important to have a dichotomy and have that separation of reality and this avatar that we create online as well, because it is an avatar for all intents purposes, whether it's my channel or anybody else's social media feed, that is an avatar that isn't who you are. That is a representation of who you want people to see you as. And you try to keep it as much aligned with you as possible, ideally. But realistically speaking, it is a sort of perfect version of you that you'll never live up to. And that online avatar Persona that we are putting out there is becoming more and more prevalent and taking over our psyche more and more and becoming the thing that people interact with more and more versus the human being. And so we are interacting through these virtual avatars rather than face to face, which is why not to plug the tour. Which is why I do enjoy doing these live events, because you'll be joining me there as well, which is a whole lot of fun. But you get to see people without that filter of that anonymity that people hide behind these hidden agendas that we all have behind every post. And no, it's unfiltered. You get to look into someone's eyes and you get to feel the. Of course, the parasocial dynamic, but also the awkwardness that makes us human. These, These interactions that we will take for granted and we will miss as we move into a more virtual existence. More and more, I think these things are going to be just. We're going to crave them from a very primordial, you know, state. Like, we need these connections in order to be human, but we'll realize that perhaps, you know, when we're least human.
[10:00]
Michael
Yeah, that's one of the things I've been thinking about more and more, especially, you know, given the fact that I'm into a lot of these, you know, sort of ancient esoteric traditions and stuff like that. And you think about trying to.
[10:12]
Chris
How, how.
[10:13]
Michael
How do you really live these truths or ideas in this kind of a context? That. That's one of the main reasons. I don't think you can just say we got to go back to being hermeticists, we gotta go back to being Neoplatonist, is because it's like, yeah, there's a lot of truth in there, but we don't live in those times anymore. Like, there's gotta be some new growth or meeting in the middle. And I think that's one of those things that is under construction all the time and perhaps never will finish being constructed as badly as it needs to be. Because reality is, like, moving too quickly for anything now. It's moving too quickly for any one narrative. Any idea of what the phenomenon is, any idea of, like, what even reality itself is, is shifting under our feet all the time. And we need those moments that you're talking about, man, where you. Where you can just anchor yourself back, back in physical space with other human beings in the most pure kind of being, togetherness. I don't even know what I'm saying, but.
[11:17]
Chris
Well, no, I think we agree. I think we're talking about the same thing here. And there's a wonderful little line that I read the other day which was, no matter what you hear, if you hear all the overwhelming, stimulating sort of sounds and sights that the screens have to offer you, or when people come to you with their problems or whatnot. Just a simple phrase to ground you is, but did you hear the birds? But did you hear the birds today? And that just kind of brings you right back to, oh, yeah, I could just go outside and listen to birds for a second and stare at the trees for a minute. And that's always there as well. And so we often get caught up in these virtual realities, but there needs to be. As much as we try to live up to these fictitious avatar that we've created, there needs to be that separation. I think it's healthy to have that separation. And we don't need to remind those that are online to get offline. We just need to get offline ourselves and, you know, just start there.
[12:27]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, dude. And now that we've taken care of our mental health, let's destroy it.
[12:33]
Chris
Let's talk about.
[12:34]
Michael
Yeah, yeah. Well, well, I. Actually, the first thing that comes to mind again is the psyop stuff, because, like, I. Like we were joking around before, you know, I think most people think about it like that. Like, there are dudes just sitting around in a room and they're sculpting a narrative from front to back. And obviously it could be that, right? Like, there's not, like, there's no reason to say it can't be that. But the thing about it, I think that's so pernicious is that you don't actually have to create a narrative or even lie. You. You simply. Okay, let me. Let me reverse that. You do have to create a narrative, but you don't have to lie. Like, I could just tell you selected truths and omit whatever doesn't fit. And that in and of itself is. Is probably a more effective type of psyop than making some kind of elaborate lie. Because I can. I can show you the whole way. I can show you receipts. I can be like, this is true. Yeah, that's true. And this is true. And just through omission, like, I've created a very compelling, hard to dismiss narrative consisting of facts, you know, And I think something like that could very easily be going on at a. I don't buy that there is some, like, humongous psyop over the entire UFO conversation because it's just too out of control and multifaceted, and everybody's talking about it in their own way now. But what I do think is that it is one of the best piles for just, like, how do we push this idea? Like, well, you know, we could just, like, project that onto a UFO invasion. Like that That's a great scapegoat for almost anything you want to do, you know, mass surveillance or trying out new technology, like military technologies or flying a bunch of drones around. Right. Like, yeah, dude. So, so I don't, you know, it's. I guess I'm sort of like in this weird, as I normally am, fence straddling place where I think there has to be narrative manipulation, psyop disinformation, misinformation, willfully involved. But I don't believe that it could be, you know, controlling the whole conversation, like some puppet master thing.
[14:51]
Chris
Yeah. Like you said, I think a lot of it is, you know, I think of my channel as more than anything, probably aiding in that direction anyways. Like, and you know, people have definitely said it before, it's like, oh, this guy's a psyops. Like, maybe, maybe I am unwillingly. Do you know what I mean? I'm not blind to the idea that confusion is probably the best tactic of all.
[15:15]
Michael
Yeah.
[15:17]
Chris
And so if I present a story that is over here, this future AI alien presence, and then over here is a story of these benevolent, you know, blonde Nordic beings, and then over here is the tiny little Grays, and like, that creates confusion. That cluster is enough to really mess things up for anyone trying to look into this clearly. But at the same time, I have no choice because I want to present all the evidence given to me, which is why I feel it's so necessary to have that open mind into, not to have a mutable and sort of modular foundation when it comes to building on top of it, this, this narrative. Like, if you have a solid foundation and you, you know, I've built your entire ontology on top of this. And the way you see the world, of course, anything that tries to interfere with that or change that in the slightest way, especially the foundation, not what's built on top of it, that you can interchange. But if you start shaking the foundation. Yeah. People are going to get defensive, they're going to push back.
[16:33]
Michael
Right.
[16:33]
Chris
So it's the practice of having that gelatin sort of foundation that allows you to stack on top of it whatever you want and tear it down and it doesn't really matter. But that's something that not everybody has, that I've realized. It comes to me, it comes to you. And I think it comes to a lot of listeners really quite naturally. And that's why they engage with this topic in a healthy way. But there are those who can't simply because of the strong, really concretized foundation that they've built everything upon, allow themselves to just change it so easily. And that frustration becomes a part of, becomes, you know, to them, it just comes very naturally to them to want to defend something. And so they're usually the ones to go psyop because they can't cope with all the different variables, only a portion of variables that sort of exist to interchange, you know, whatever they've built on their foundation. But as soon as the variable interferes with the foundation, then they go psyop. That I can't, I can't handle that. And so, you know, the term psyop I think is thrown around far too easily. Secondly, you know, if you were a government entity and you were like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, hire these people, spread them out to disinfo the topic through these podcasts. First of all, this isn't the 80s anymore. If you did that as an intelligence agency nowadays I would just make my own intelligence agency that did it all virtually online with algorithm manipulation instead and just outbid you on every project. There's no way that what you're doing with people is going to be more effective than what some 20 year old can do with an AI clawed background. I mean, it's just unfathomable the amount of manipulation that you can have through people's screens. Like, I mean, if you don't like me, you can just turn off, you can just change the channel.
[18:45]
Michael
Yeah, right.
[18:45]
Chris
Then, oh, psyops over.
[18:48]
Michael
Unless it's a flood the zone type of psyop, you know, it's just like, no, no, the more the better. The more the better because when we have too much noise. Man, man. And this is, this is actually scary because this is a sort of macro manipulation of everything that we've been saying that I think we are starting to see, which is that when you do flood the zone and you have so many competing narratives, people want to retreat to like islands of coherence, right? So they will go back to nationalism, they will go back to organized religion, they'll go back to politics. And that's happening like, that's happening in such a scary, divisive way where we're going to be living in these weird, it's not even going to be just, you know, we hear about echo chambers and shit, but that's not even the, it's like weird informational reality fiefdoms, you know, it's like, it's like, oh, what sector do you live in? And you're going to be able, you can tell, right? You can tell. Oh, this guy lives in that mental sector. Like he lives in this reality tunnel. Do you know about reality tunnels?
[19:52]
Chris
I mean, I can, I can assume,
[19:54]
Michael
yeah, it's pretty much what it sounds like. But there's this author you would love named Robert Anton Wilson. One of my favorite books of all time called Cosmic Trigger. And he, he, I love him because he's one of these multi disciplinary weirdos where he was doing everything from experimenting with magical rituals and psychedelics and commute believing he was communicating with alien intelligences from Sirius. And he was studying like hardcore physics, psychology, all of the like bleeding edge quantum stuff. And he was stress testing his own experiences and putting agnosticism over the top of all of it, saying like, here's the strongest case for the, like that I literally was in contact with Sirius. I was having all these insane synchronicities. I met this person, this happened that, you know, I had a men in black encounter, whatever. And then he would just flip it and totally stress test it and take it apart and straw man it and steel man do everything. It's like. And he, he's just one of my favorite thinkers for that reason. He had this like mercurial trickster y approach to all of it. But, but that was his term, reality tunnels. This idea that everyone is living in their own weird, unique tunnel of reality and they think that it's real. They don't, they don't see it for the Plato's cave that it is. And if you can blow up someone's reality tunnel, it's simultaneously the most, you know, it's the best thing you can do for them, but also the worst
[21:20]
Chris
because it's freeing someone from the matrix.
[21:22]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, it's ontological shock. Right.
[21:27]
Chris
But again, the question also needs to become who are you to do that? Right. Like, what gives you the right to do that? Because those who practice Christianity also feel like they're throwing you a life vest when they're trying to get you to convert. So what gives you the right to want to create ontological shock for someone and not a Christian for wanting to convert someone? I don't agree with forceful disclosure. I just don't agree with it in general. I think disclosure should happen the way it's happening in a transitional way. We are all, you know, if you fast forward in time, this will be where disclosure happens. The trajectory towards disclosure is moving in that direction.
[22:28]
Michael
It's probably Chris Ramsey.
[22:33]
Chris
That's right. And if you want to come see Michael and I on tour, I will be hitting a few dates you can go to itsprobablynothing.com I am so excited to be hanging not only with one of my really good friends in this space, somebody who I enjoy talking with for hours and hours on end, but also hanging with a lot of you, the viewers who watch the show. I mean, it's just such an exciting thing to be a part of and I'm so glad to be able to invite Michael to experience it as well.
[23:02]
Michael
Yeah, likewise, man. It's going to be so fun not just to talk about some of my favorite subjects and hang with you and meet cool people, but also live some of my unrequited band touring days.
[23:14]
Chris
Yes.
[23:14]
Michael
I've always wanted to like get on the road more and like, do more, you know, like.
[23:17]
Chris
Yeah.
[23:18]
Michael
So it's just, it's just gonna be fun all the way around. Dude, I seriously can't wait.
[23:22]
Chris
So if you want to come see it, it's probably nothing. Dot com. The dates are. Well, the, the, the places are I think maybe not in order. Tucson, Louisiana, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver. And Michael will be joining me at San Francisco, Seattle, Portland.
[23:43]
Michael
Yep. And Vancouver.
[23:44]
Chris
And Vancouver.
[23:45]
Michael
Yeah.
[23:46]
Chris
So more than half the tour you're going to get your dose of third eye drops. If you're in, come see us, come check it out. It's a heck of a good time. We got a lot of surprises and special guests lined up as well. So look forward to doing it.
[24:00]
Michael
Me too, brother.
[24:01]
Chris
I just don't agree with it in general. I think disclosure should happen the way it's happening in a transitional way. We are all, you know, if you fast forward in time, this will be where disclosure happens. The trajectory towards disclosure is moving in that direction. Right. We're not, we're not stagnant. We're not moving backwards. We are moving into that direction. And partially due to the abundance of information, having information available to everyone at all times, we are gathering more information by the age of 10 than a hundred year old would have 100 years ago. And so by that standard, eventually you get to the bottom of the barrel of information. You start asking deeper questions at an earlier age. And so naturally the progression of humanity when faced with this informational archive, is to get to those questions quicker. And eventually we'll all be wondering, who's out there? Why are we here? And it isn't just stimulated by government action. It isn't just stimulated by researchers in the field. It is a deep necessity for humans to just want that answer because they've gotten to the end of everything else. They've seen past the algorithms and they're just like, yeah, but why are we here? And so we'll get there eventually. But I do think it is a transitional thing that happens generationally. I'm, I'm very resigned to not having any concrete confirmation in this lifetime. It's okay with me because I know that it will happen eventually. Like, we are moving towards that direction. I think the frustration a lot of people feel is it not happening in their lifetime. So it is a selfish request to want disclosure now, you know, because they've worked so hard their whole lives, they deserve it. But give it three, four generations and it'll just be regular chat. It won't be this speculative thing that we all sort of talk about. It'll just be like, yeah, okay, aliens are here. Like, I've, I've spoken about this recently too, and I thought it was an interesting thought exercise to be like, if you were, I don't know, communing with an entity who is the gatekeeping entity that has all of the answers that you seek and the answers to disclosure, to life, to whatever, right? And you can ask this entity to answer you truthfully and he'll answer you truthfully for one question. And the question becomes, are we or have we ever shared this planet with a non human sort of based intelligence of like an alien capacity? Yeah, exactly. And the entity, whatever this is, whether it's a person in the government or whatever, just says no, it's never happened.
[27:12]
Michael
Right.
[27:15]
Chris
I mean, instantly you go, I don't buy it. Right. Like us as researchers, we go, yeah, that you're lying right? Now, I've told you that this entity is going to give you the truth and you get to ask any question, and yet you're resigned to not believing that the answer is no. So let's take that a step further. If you're resigned to that, then just assume the answer is now and move on. You don't need that confirmation. We don't. We shouldn't beg for that confirmation. We shouldn't seek that confirmation. That should be the lesson that we all are trying to learn is that the pot of gold at the end of the rainbows is worthless. Like we're not, we shouldn't be seeking this validation, this permission to ask new questions. No, Assume you have the answer, then if you're resigned to the answer being we're not alone, then you might as well just assume that that's the answer if you're never going to accept it otherwise, and then just move on. That's Your disclosure. There you go. And ask the new question. Now, people get very frustrated about thinking, oh, I just want the answer. You, you need to understand you only want the answer because you want to be allowed to ask a new question.
[28:33]
Michael
Yeah. Or you only want the answer because you want to service your own preconceived notions about the truth. Sure.
[28:39]
Chris
But then what happens immediately after that? You don't hang the hat up and go, well, I'm good now. I'm going to retire on a beach. No, you go, well, what's the next question? Now that I have that answer.
[28:48]
Michael
Right.
[28:48]
Chris
And so just assume you have that answer. If you're resigned to having that answer be the answer you want it to be anyways, if there's no other way around it, if you're not going to accept the fact that we are alone, then you might as well just act as we're not and move on and ask those new questions. And I think, I think that that's like the lesson here throughout all of this is that we need to stop seeking this validation from a governmental body, from an entity, from our inner selves. Like, screw confirmation, screw all of that practice just not needing that and asking the questions anyways. And then it becomes stimulating, it becomes fulfilling, and it doesn't shift your ontology every five minutes when you hear something new. It becomes fun and enlightening. And I think that we just need to practice letting go of that. Like it's unhealthy because that, you know, all it does is it, it births frustration and, and this, this, these antagonizing sort of debates and, and everything else. Like, we could do away with all of that if we just. Yeah, if we just acknowledge that.
[29:58]
Michael
Okay.
[29:59]
Chris
Yeah, we're not alone. Now what. Yeah, what's the next question?
[30:01]
Michael
Yeah, well, first of all, I knew you were a, A gradualist, slow disclosure shill, Christopher. I just knew it. And you just confirmed it. For. No, I, I do agree to, to a degree. But to, to the degree that if you're going to make a statement like I so deeply believe that we're not alone, that even an answer from an almighty to the contrary would change my mind, I'm going to stick with that. If you don't at least consider. Well, if it's saying no, and this is supposed to be the fount of truth, I really better at least condition my, My really strongly held belief because I think, I think just cloistering, you're holding on to your belief so tightly that something is true is very dangerous. Like, it's very epistemologically dangerous because you're essentially then saying, I'm willing to believe in a lie for my own comfort. And I don't think that's what you're saying. But. But what I think should be done is, first of all, I agree, and I think that's a very reasonable belief to hold, based on mountains and mountains of common sense, personal experience, all kinds of evidence to say that we're not alone. But I also think that you should also have the epistemic humility to totally condition what that means. Like, it might not mean what I think it means. It might not fit into my beliefs, the rest of my belief system. And if you're not willing to stress test it in that way, you've got to be, I think, honest with yourself and say, maybe I'm not really looking for truth. Maybe I'm looking for validation. And I think all of us are to some degree. Right. I know that I am. But if you're really not willing to admit that at all, you're pro. Just like, you know, our friend Hakeem who says, like, if you don't think you're. And. And Chase you says this as well. If you don't think you're susceptible to a psyop, you're the most susceptible person to a psyop. Like, same with this. If you don't think your beliefs are subject to what Chris and I are saying. They absolutely are. They absolutely are. Like, if you don't have a worldview capable of holding, you know, tension with other possibilities. You fucked, guys. You're fucked. Like, you're. You're on one of these islands of coherence of, like, imaginary Disneyland thinking that. I'm sorry, it's like, it's. It's a way. It's more of a coping mis. A coping mechanism for reality than a way to. To get to truth, I think.
[32:30]
Chris
Yes, correct. And. And I guess all I'm trying to say is that, like, don't let the answer, yes, we're alone. I mean, we're not going to let it stop us from asking questions. Right?
[32:42]
Michael
Yeah.
[32:42]
Chris
Even if. Even if that is the truth.
[32:45]
Michael
Yeah.
[32:45]
Chris
It. It's still not going to stop you from posing these philosophical, you know, questions inside your mind and being like, oh, but is there anything else? Is there more? Is there, like, these questions still exist within us? And, like. All I'm saying is that you don't need permission to ask those questions, and you don't need validation to ask those questions. You don't need confirmation to ask those questions. Those questions exist freely. And look at every other thing in your life. Look at everybody who's ever attained any modicum of success or financial freedom or whatever. Like, what do they tell you when they get to the end? They tell you it's meaningless. You know, there's this guy on, on Instagram, he interviews like these like 90 year olds and he always asks them, like, what's, what's the one thing you would tell your younger self or the younger generation? And it's always, travel more, spend more time with your family, spend more time with your friends. Create memories, you know, don't take life for granted. Like it, it has nothing to do with all the things that we so desperately seek. Right. And we. There is that the idea that. Yes, but we have to go through it to learn it or whatever. But at least, at the very least, let's acknowledge that that is a truth here. That every validating piece of information that we seek at the end of our lives is going to be absolutely meaningless to us. Although we might feel differently right now, it will be. I promise you. You're going to be faced with mortality and you will say, who cares?
[34:19]
Michael
Yeah.
[34:19]
Chris
You know, like, it's the idea of trying to leave the body constantly, you know, and then you're like, well, what's the hurry? You're gonna leave the body? Like, if that is a thing, you're gonna leave it, you know?
[34:33]
Michael
Yeah.
[34:33]
Chris
You won't come back to the body. Maybe not this body or whatever. So, like, what's the hurry to enjoy the body? You know, enjoy swimming, eating, having sex, running, you know, exercise, do all, do all the things the body is here for. But like, yeah, not to get too preachy, but like, that's, that's what it comes down to when it comes, when I think of disclosure. And that's why I have a weird, frustrating relationship with the word, because it's always sprung upon me. And as I'm sure it is you, because it's the one question people formulate for whatever reason, they go, what's your take on disclosure? What do you think should happen with disclosure? And it's like, yeah, I don't want to be a nihilist here, but it really doesn't matter. Like, I mean, we're going to be fine. Yeah,
[35:25]
Michael
agreed. And I always, I always have further thoughts. You and I have gotten hung up on this before of like, you know, what is the point of like, let's say, going out of body? Like, what I don't want to. I don't want to rehab that conversation.
[35:37]
Chris
Sure.
[35:37]
Michael
What I, what I do want to rehab though, that I feel like you and I have had some version of on every episode we've done is like the lower conviction, higher conviction game. Because I feel like my answer lately has sort of changed or has sort of like evolved in a way. And I'm wondering if there's anything. Well, maybe we can, we could do both lower or higher conviction. And if anything jumps to mind, feel free to riff. And if, because I'm putting you on the spot, nothing's coming to mind, I can also riff. But is there anything that you've either recently like lowered or raised your conviction on as far as this conversation goes?
[36:17]
Chris
I think yeah, both. Both things I've.
[36:20]
Michael
I've.
[36:23]
Chris
It's really hard, it's really hard to say because most of what I deal with in terms of the people I interview deals with circumstantial sort of evidence that revolves around someone's experience.
[36:40]
Michael
Right.
[36:41]
Chris
And I can let that raise and lower my conviction to a certain extent, but I can't have it prove anything and I can't have it disprove anything. So it really is this sort of suspended state of like this medium lowering and raising of conviction case by case. I think overall I am slightly lower conviction that the government knows anything. I think, or at least the front facing government, I could say I'm rather much lower conviction that they're aware of anything at all. You know, if you look at the recent tranches. Stupid word, but you look at the recent tranches, that.
[37:35]
Michael
That's the psyop is to get us to all say Tron so someone can make money on Kelshi. Tron is going to go up in popularity.
[37:41]
Chris
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But there is, you know, when that, when that came out, they were like, yeah, that's the meat and potatoes. That's what Luna said. That's the meat and potatoes represented. Luna, she said that's the meat and potatoes for the last, you know, dishing out of videos and documents.
[37:58]
Michael
Wait, she said that, like everything that's been released is the meat and potatoes.
[38:02]
Chris
She said that? She said meat and potatoes. That's the meat and potatoes in an interview.
[38:08]
Michael
And I'm like, piece of cheesecake coming, dude.
[38:10]
Chris
And I'm like, that's it? That's what you were afraid to put out for fear of your life. It's ridiculous. Yeah, stupid. I'm sorry. This is not worth it. This is not worth my time. It's not worth anybody's time. We have better evidence Far better evidence, evidence in the last 80 years coming from the civilian side than you have with your military equipment. If that's, and if very big, if that's all the military's ever known about UFOs, then I'm high conviction that there's nothing happening. I don't believe that to be true. I do think that factions of, you know, the backwards facing military or, you know, the military industrial complex have information that is way, way more pertinent and, you know, relevant and groundbreaking than what we've seen in these tranches. But yeah, that as soon as I saw that I was like, oh, that's a joke that. I'm sorry, it's a joke. It's all of this and the science advisory board and all that bs. Like it makes no sense to me now where I'm like, oh, this is a dog and pony show. This is not, this has nothing to do with anything. And some people might think it's a psyop. I genuinely don't. I genuinely think these are curious people who think they are doing good. I just don't think these people are well informed in terms of historically what's happened in different countries in the United States, everywhere around the world. There's these earth shattering cases with witnesses. But what they're looking at is sort of deconstructing FLIR footage of something and you're like, oh, you guys are looking at the wrong thing and you're hyping each other up and it really doesn't matter what you think at this point because. And again it brings me back to let's not hinge anything on what we're seeing, you know, and go your own way and do your own research when it comes to this stuff, because it's just going to be disappointment after disappointment. Sure. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. There might be something that comes out of the woodwork that'll shock us all. And I'm hoping for that. And I know they probably are too, but I wouldn't say that the government, meaning the UAP crew is going to bring anything of interest forward that is. So I'm much lower conviction on that stuff than I was.
[40:45]
Michael
Yeah. So do you include in that the things that are more shadowy? Like, do you include, you know, to an extent, the put offs and the Davises and the legacy program people and the defense contractors. Is your, is your conviction going down on that whole kind of like legacy program, you know, construct narrative? Because you, you say. Because you could say that's the closest thing to a sanctioned narrative that's out there, right? Yeah, like there is a sanctioned narrative.
[41:20]
Chris
Yes.
[41:20]
Michael
But, but even within that, man, there's such weird disagreeance. Like there's such weird, you know.
[41:27]
Chris
Yeah.
[41:28]
Michael
Differences of opinion on like everything from we have fully back engineered stuff to. No, no, we never got far with it at all. And there's like, you know, there's, there's. Yeah, but, but I have to agree, man. It's like, you know, I made a statement in the, you know, you know, I've been working on this big thesis video and it's all like shot and I'm just working on the, you know, putting the bells and whistles on it at this point. And at a certain point I'm like, you know, I'm putting myself in kind of a weird position with this video because this is probably the closest thing I'm going to make to a thesis statement on what I think is going on. And I could very quickly be proven wrong with a, like a, one of these tranches. Right. Like something could come out that totally is like, yes, we are in contact with an alien species from this specific planet and they are this. And here's the evidence. And you know, that I'm not, I'm not precluding that possibility from my thesis of course, but I am very much diminishing that in favor of other, other ways of thinking about the phenomenon that are, that are like less physical, more mental, more higher dimensional, etc. And I said in the video, like I could be putting myself, I could just be. By the time I hit publish on this, I could be proven wrong.
[42:40]
Chris
Yeah.
[42:40]
Michael
And, and, and I, and I. That still could be the case. Right? Especially because it's like I feel like, oh yeah, I'll have it out next week and then it's like a month later and I'm still fucking working on it. But, but with every passing day, bro, I feel a lot safer in that statement. You know, I feel a lot safer in the idea that that will not be released and that even if it is released, it will be questionable and lackluster. And you know, I don't know man. It's funny because now this, now this just sent my brain down this like very rapid fire vision of even if something like disclosure day, like the, the, you know, the ultimate reveal, even if that happened, bro, would we, would we believe it?
[43:24]
Chris
Of course not. I mean like there's a huge part of the population that would. And then the other part of the population would make fun of the ones that do believe it. And they would make memes about how mushy brained you are believing what the government said. And like, it would just be more news cycle junk. Yeah, that's all it would be. And then in a week or two after that, we'd be right back to where we were. Like, that's how the news cycle works today. And you could be shown anything. It doesn't matter anymore. And maybe that's the whole point of it. Maybe the point was to get to that point where you could be shown a literal live alien with its heart beating or whatever and you would still be like, yeah, and maybe that's the whole point. Maybe that's the point of everything. To get to that point where just no one believes it and it's out in the open, it's walking around, there's an alien. Look, it's in Times Square. Wow, that's crazy, huh? You know, some people say it's a real alien. Shut up, dude. That's crazy though. And like, yeah, maybe that's the whole point. I don't know.
[44:29]
Michael
Friends, I have been cooking up the goods over in the members section on YouTube and at patreon.com forward/third eyedrops. What are said goods? And was cooking really the best verb you could summon on this occasion? Well, to the former question, said goods are weekly, at least roughly exclusive content that you are never going to see here on the main feed with some of your favorite guests. By the way, case in point, I am slowly working on a doc that I shot at Contact in the Desert this year with a number of your favorite beings on the topic of UFOs and consciousness. And I will be releasing the full unedited conversations with all of those people only on the members channel and on Patreon. If you do join up over at patreon.com forward/third eyedrops, you will get access to all of those exclusive videos, plus a patron only discord and occasional live hangs and more. And yes, of course the doc will be coming out on the main feed. If I didn't make that clear. So much love for watching my friends while I have you tickle that algorithm. Like, subscribe, review if you are listening on Spotify.
[45:38]
Chris
Maybe that's the point of everything, to get to that point where just no one believes it and it's out in the open, it's walking around. There's an alien. Look, it's in Times Square. Wow, that's crazy, huh? You know, some people say it's a real alien. Shut up, dude. That's crazy though. And like, yeah, maybe that's the whole point. I don't know.
[45:58]
Michael
Yeah, dude. Yeah, it's. And, and another way to say that exact same thing is if you can't get someone to believe something like that, you can get them to believe to, to not believe anything. And that in a way is control. That is controlling an uncontrollable narrative. Because what you're doing is instead of trying to sculpt a narrative to get people to believe X, all you have to do is fuck up the narrative so much that no one believes anything.
[46:24]
Chris
Right.
[46:24]
Michael
And then if no one believes anything with enough conviction to do much about it, in a sense, you've won. Right. Because now, now, now you can do anything and no one will really bat an eyelash at it. It's just kind of like apathy is
[46:37]
Chris
at an all time high. Like, I mean, there's just less and less people care about anything. There are more and more causes to care for which dilutes your amount of caring that you can have for each cause.
[46:51]
Michael
Yeah.
[46:51]
Chris
You know, it's just the way it is.
[46:54]
Michael
Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. And, and I think that that again just flips the conversation right back into do not pin your sense making and all of your, you know, beliefs on external narrative stuff, particularly coming from, from these kinds of sources. Okay, so, so you have lowered your conviction on this, that aspect of the narrative at least. But you said both. So what do you feel like you've raised conviction levels on?
[47:26]
Chris
You know, the more I hear people, sure. There's a lot of people out there that reach out, whether it's through the phone calls, through interviews or through emails or whatnot. And they all have the missing piece of the puzzle, right? They all, I've got it here. It is undeniable proof. And they just send me like a photo or something. And it's, you know, it is what you think it is and it's. I do receive a lot of that. I'm sure you do as well, to a certain extent. But when you speak to people in person, people who have never come forward, people who never want to come forward, and they just want to share and impart with you an experience that they've had that has changed their life, undoubtedly changed their life. And when you hear those stories and they start, there is a pattern. And this person, I'm not a doctor, does not seem schizophrenic, out of their mind, having some psychosis. They're giving you just a small piece of, hey, this happened. I'd really appreciate if you didn't share my name or anything, but I wanted to let you know that I also was at a supermarket and somebody talked to me in my head. And it's only happened once in my life, and I didn't know what to make of that. And no one else could see them. I thought it was crazy, but I just wanted to let you know that that happened to me. And please don't divulge this information to anyone. So many times, so many. And you wonder. So that I think I'm. Higher conviction that there is a phenomenon that is interacting with a select few people for whatever reason, whether it's by accident or whether it's by design. Yeah. Around the world, I think that that is happening. Otherwise the other side of that would have to be. I've encountered dozens of pathological liars, slash people who don't know they are being absolutely manipulated. Slash people who are hallucinating or on drugs or have some type of mental instability that allows them to see a human being or something and speak to them in their mind once in their life, but never again. Like, those are the other options. And so when I weigh all those together, I feel like, man, could this be. And my conviction gets raised a little more with every encounter that I have. Yeah, I would say on those encounters.
[50:11]
Michael
Yeah, that makes sense. And I mean, we know for a fact that these are things that are happening. But the thing that's so. And I'm in the same camp, essentially, is that I think your own ability to tap into whatever this is is very real. I haven't had an experience exactly like that where. Especially on the natch, where I was just suddenly, like, I've tapped into feeling like I'm channeling some other consciousness. But it seems like it would be a foolish thing to say that no one's really having that experience, because a lot of people are. Now, what that means is also like a huge debate, right? Like, are they legitimately in contact with what they think? And is it part of their subconscious? Is it a. Is it another being, but another being that's representing itself faithfully or uncontrollable system? Is it a. Is it a psychotronic weapon that's being experimented on? You Is it a. It's just. Is it a psychical faculty where, yeah, you tapped into something, but it's like you basically just chapped and tapped into like a. A psychic radio channel. And it's not. It's not literally even true. It might just be like the chattering of the collective consciousness. Like there's just so many possibilities with that. But I would totally agree with you that my, my conviction is very high on the idea that we cite. We, we possess the, the ability psychically to tap into non physical sources of information. I think that that's like a very strong conviction on that.
[51:38]
Chris
Yeah. For me, I just think that's the nature of reality. Like that's part of like my world.
[51:43]
Michael
Yeah.
[51:44]
Chris
Building in my own sort of how I see ontology and like it. It is just that that's how information works. You know, I had Dr. Julia Mossbridge on recently.
[51:54]
Michael
Oh, awesome. Yeah, yeah.
[51:55]
Chris
And I was able to talk to her great lengths about that, about this non local omnipresent cloud of information that exists everywhere. And information can latch onto light and it can travel on light, but it doesn't need to. And like, but it's always there. Like everyone has access to it. You want to call it the Akashic records, you want to call it the field, whatever, but it's always there. And we do act as these nodes, these tiny antennas that seem to not only be able to download information, but to upload information as well. Like there is a two way dialogue between us and this cloud of information and the mind, which is essentially the thing that lives between the brain and that cloud of information, is able to travel in time, is able to go forward, to go backwards. And it's not beholden to the things that we are physically. And so I also think that that is a healthy way to view the world and to make sense of the world. I'm happy to have that all be proven wrong, but it does seem sensible. So, so for me it's not even like about a high conviction. It means for me it's like that's, that's kind of the baseline that I have. If I were to, you know, go all in on something, I think that that would be it. I think that, I think it's pretty reasonable.
[53:15]
Michael
Yeah, I do too. And there's emerging science to, to, to back this idea up. Like I'm not going to, I'm literally. I just made this joke on another podcast, but I'll make it again is it probably just sounds like I'm being literally paid by Don Hoffman personally to just glaze him on every fucking episode of the podcast. But the work that he's doing with Trace Institute, which is his new venture, that's sort of the overarching organized version of his philosophy. And then these like collaborators that are, that are starting to come into this just to speed run this really Quick, he's an idealist philosopher who essentially believes what, what you're saying. And he's, he's proving this through like hardcore cognitive science and theory that reality, like the, the foundational substrate of reality is consciousness and that physical reality is essentially like an evolutionarily convenient desktop or, or VR headset that we wear to survive, but it does not actually represent reality in any fidelity. It just represents our ability to survive and, and navigate this, this realm. And, but he has a peer reviewed paper now that has taken his theory and derived space time from it like using actual math. And he believes he will be able to derive quantum stuff and literally all, like all of extant physics, not from material assumptions, but from assuming that consciousness is primary and these things that he calls conscious agents are primary. And what's also interesting is this fits very well into a type of disclosure conversation because what he's saying is beyond this veneer, beyond this, you know, realm that we interact with is actually a whole other realm of conscious agents, as he calls them. And he, he keeps that very technical, like, doesn't get into like, yeah, these could be aliens, these could be entities, these could be angels, whatever. But the very recent development is he has publicly done a talk with Dr. Andrew Gallimore now the DMT guy, and has said, yeah, like, I think DMT entities probably are an example of this realm of conscious agents. So I think, I mean, yes, I'm cherry picking here, but, but I think the idea that you could easily be proven wrong on that idea is like becoming a harder and harder because I think it's very plausible and I think that there's going to be, and equally, you know, we might be headed for the same thing I was describing before, where everyone's living in these informational fiefdoms, materialism and idealism might turn out as those kinds of things where there's a very, very good argument to be made for, for both. But I don't know, man. I think, I think the idea of what you just said, the idea that there is some kind of baseline level of reality and connectivity that is comprised of consciousness that we, that we're participating in, but we're to an extent blind to, or we only function with, on an unseen or vestigial or some, some kind of latent level, I think that that is going to sound more and more and more likely with each passing decade, man. I really do.
[56:37]
Chris
Definitely. You know, the sort of visual analogy that I have of all of this is this kind of helps my brain make sense of it. But there Is this, let's say, substrate of reality, zero point, or the quantum field or whatever, this substrate that everything is built upon. Okay. This is like level one and level two. Now, we have these physical properties that arise from this. And. And what I see sort of materialist scientists trying to do is take the substrate, level one, and package it into level two.
[57:19]
Michael
Yeah, right. Exactly.
[57:20]
Chris
And you go, that's insane.
[57:22]
Michael
Yeah.
[57:23]
Chris
And. Sure. Yeah. At some times, the math will. Math. And it'll be doing its thing, and you'll be like, oh, yeah, it comes to zero. I'm right.
[57:31]
Michael
Yeah.
[57:31]
Chris
But then there's this whole other side that makes no sense. And there's no unifying law. There's like. It's just. We call it spooky. There's like. There's. There's nothing. Right. And that's because you're taking this thing that cannot be defined by physical means, and you're trying to fit it into this physical world and be like, here's what it's made of.
[57:52]
Michael
Yeah.
[57:52]
Chris
By using physical analogies. And you're like, that's like somebody who's. Who's like. Who says they've figured out music. And they give you a bunch of numbers, and they're like, I understand music. This is music. We've understood it. And you're like, what are you talking about? You haven't heard it. And they're like, you don't need to hear it. Look, it's like bars here. And you got this. There's 64 things and the frets and the. And you're like, yeah, but that's not music. And they're like, what do you mean, it's not music? Mass equals zero, you know, and you're like, no, but it gives you goosebumps. It, like, transports you emotionally. It. You know. And you could never explain that to a mathematician who's never heard music.
[58:33]
Michael
Right.
[58:34]
Chris
And yet.
[58:35]
Michael
Nor could you reduce it to physicality, to your.
[58:37]
Chris
Exactly. And you're trying to just, like, cram it in and. So that you can sleep well at night. And it's. Eventually, I think we're just. We're at that point now where we're all realizing. We're like, well, we've had this exponential curve, and now it's just kind of stopped. What's halting progression in terms of physics? And it is there. There's the stopping point. We all recognize that quantum physics is that point of like. Well, we got to acknowledge the elephant in the room now.
[59:09]
Michael
Yeah.
[59:10]
Chris
This is the problem.
[59:11]
Michael
Yes, dude. There's actually A clip of Jim Semivan that's been going around for a long time where he says, you know, whatever the phenomenon is, it probably sits in a Venn diagram of consciousness and quantum physics, which are the two things we know the least about.
[59:27]
Chris
Yeah.
[59:27]
Michael
And I'm just like, yeah, I mean, yeah, Jim Semivan, sure. Take, take like, question that as a source if you want. I would love to talk to the dude. He seems to have a lot of similar thoughts to me. But yeah, as soon as I heard that, that, that perked up my ears. And it's also incredible because Don Hoffman is starting to more openly talk about these more, you know, traditionally fringe ideas. And, and we were kind of in real time working through the idea of, okay, like, if there really were technologies that could do these things, would this theory explain it? And he's like, yeah, 100 would. And, and I think that that thing that all of us see, you know, this. And again, choose, choose how much conviction you want to put in any one story or any one theory. But a very common part of UFO lore is that there's some weird connection between technology, the phenomenon and consciousness that we don't understand. You know, all the way on up to like these things, these craft are like extensions of consciousness or are completely controlled by consciousness. You know, that's a trope that comes up over and over again and makes no sense from our current pov. But now if you do have a pov, like what Don is talking about, where you're assuming like you're from, from ground level, level one, you're not, you're not only assuming that consciousness is the base level of reality. You actually have that worked out in a technical theory. So you could start from consciousness being involved from square one. And what kinds of technology would that produce? It would be magic. It literally is magic, you know, like, so I think, I think there could be some, some interesting connections there that are totally high level and theoretical, at least in my stupid brain. But it makes, it does make a lot of sense, at least.
[61:15]
Chris
Yeah. But again, we could just assume that is reality and keep asking these stimulating and amazing questions that spark awesome discussion, you know, or we could get frustrated that no one's confirming what we're saying, you know.
[61:31]
Michael
Yes, yes. So one thing that my conviction level has gone up on that I think actually fits into where this conversation is, you know, bumbling into, is the idea that reality has built in intelligence tests. And it's, it's sort of similar to the idea in UFO lore of, you know, the, the donations, where it's kind of like they like, like the notion that we didn't crash this thing on accident. Here you go. You take it now and see what you can figure out. And then again the lore is that we, we make iterative, slow, incremental, technological and maybe even ontological, like new, new levels of understanding from these, from these donations. But I was having a conversation recently with Danny Goler, you know, the guy who, the, the DMT laser guy. And also same conversation with Andrew Gallimore and this idea keeps coming up over and over again that there seemed to be built in kind of intelligence Rubik's Cube level tests with all of these things. Like, like Gallimore was arguing that dmt, he believes is an intelligence test because with each new level there's like a new question. And then once you solve that question, it, it literally brings human consciousness to a new level that it could not reach before. Right. So if you can put it into a smokable form. Oh, now you, now you gained a level, put it into a. You know, I feel like all these keywords are going to get me like, like, like shadow bad. But, but it's like, you know, now we're to this point where you can reliably do it through intravenous indefinite, you know, like being in this realm. And, and now, dude, the types of experiences that people are talking about having in extended state is so mind boggling and insane, but it's real. And what is that? You know, and you've, there have even been stories. One of the stories that came out of that initial pilot study at, at Imperial College in London is they actually got advice or no, maybe this came out of. No, this came out of Strassman's spirit molecule studies, the old ones, where they, they basically told him how to improve the protocol, like to do it better. Like the entities told them how to improve the protocol to like make it work better. You know that, that kind of stuff is very interesting. So. Yeah, but broadly this idea that there are intelligence tests purposefully I don't think we need to put it as in cartoonish of a way as like there is one alien guy who put the like intelligence test. There's. But I think reality is constructed intentionally of, in that way of hidden and deeper levels of meaning that can be decoded all the way down to like maybe a literal code level that we will stumble across and be like, wow. Not only is consciousness fundamental, but we see these layers of understanding and encoding throughout every layer of reality. Like my conviction as recently I would say gone up on that.
[64:42]
Chris
There's the idea as well of dreams themselves being those tests, right. No matter how strange a dream is, it seems like there's always a decision to be made or you act a certain way in response to something. If you're feeling frustrated because of an interaction you had recently, you might dream of that interaction and it might raise that frustration even more in the dream and you'll just lash out. Maybe that's the test. Maybe it's like, let's see if you've learned your lesson. And do you go the other way? Do you help this person in the dream or do you beat them up? Do you, you know, no matter how strange the scenario is, maybe these are, you know, morality tests that you're put through in these, in these, in these states. And that's why your mind's sort of creating this reality for you to run you through another simulation. And I like to think of it that way. And I, I go into dreaming nowadays with that in mind and hoping, you know, to correct some of the outcomes that I may otherwise have moved negatively towards based on like an emotion that I had. And I think, oh, well, maybe that maybe I can, you know, fix this scenario in my dream. Speaking to Dr. Mossbridge once again, you know, she had talked about the very therapeutic sort of practice that she's been spearheading with one of her organizations, which is helping people who've had trauma through this idea of mental time travel. And so you are dealing with perhaps some post traumatic stress from an event. And let's take you back to that time through hypnotic regression and let's go to that event. And first, the way that she has it was really interesting because she wrote a whole dissertation on psychological time travel or psychological time and how it, you know, differs from objective time. And so going back, seeing yourself live through this trauma, maybe tell yourself what you need to hear in that moment of that will help you sort of persevere and get through this trauma and then do it again. But this time be the person in the moment of trauma and seeing yourself talk you down and give you that advice and sort of live both of those. And they've seen a great, great, like clear improvement of people's mental health in regards to those traumas after doing this practice. And so this is something that she's working on, I think is just phenomenal. She obviously, you know, she has a different worldview where yes, informational substrate exists maybe omnipresently, but beyond that is love. She, that's her sort of field is, is, is Love encapsulates everything. Everything. Love creates consciousness, and then consciousness creates physicality and whatever. But love is like this. The substrate, the binding glue that holds everything together, dude. And she's done an immense amount of research in regards to people in a state of what she puts it as unconditional love, how it enhances the psychic ability. And she's done papers on this. She's done studies on this, hard science on this, where objectively you get better results if you're in a state of unconditional love versus if you're not. And so it actually increases. And so then it was really interesting because I was asking her, well, you can have it both ways, right? We have this spectrum of, like, oh, it's love that improves the cognitive sort of psi ability. But then on the other hand, we have, like, trauma, right? This trauma, this evil, like, prodding and poking. We hear Jordan Jozik, we hear all these terrible things, but then what is actually happening there is dissociation. The dissociation from the trauma is creating the psychic event, not the trauma itself. It's the getting away from the trauma. So it's healing. It's love. And so a very interesting conversation sort of arose from talking about psychological time, how to fix yourself in the past, and then this sort of loving intention, you know, increasing psychic capability.
[69:42]
Michael
Yeah, that's super fascinating. And. And I think that. That any kind of, like, hypnosis stuff where you're playing with the elasticity and mutability of experience, that. That's crazy. And it's exciting, but also terrifying, bro, because it calls into question so many things about, like, you know, are people really remembering real memories during hypnotic regression? And also much darker stuff about.
[70:10]
Chris
Sure.
[70:10]
Michael
How much can you program a person's reality and identity? And you could do that for positive or for negative.
[70:16]
Chris
Sure.
[70:16]
Michael
And then. And I mean, I feel like that that must be the case, but also
[70:20]
Chris
just fun to have it as a tool to help people who, you know, have trauma. Because regardless of what happened objectively, if you can convince your mind that it happened otherwise, then that's all that really matters, Right. It's this, this. This positive delusion that will essentially dissipate the amount of stress that you have, Right?
[70:42]
Michael
Yeah, if that's your goal, for sure, it seems to almost work on a similar mechanism to, like, a psychedelic experience or something. How people who have been traumatized can somehow gain, like, new perspective on it. Maybe it's. Maybe it's not the exact same thing, but. But similar. Did you specifically bring that up with her? By the way, with her kind of experience and scientific pedigree, did you specifically bring up any of these, like, GATE program manipulation stories?
[71:10]
Chris
She was a part of GATE program.
[71:12]
Michael
Like, in that capacity? Like in the.
[71:14]
Chris
Yeah, she was a part of. She was part of something called SOAR S O A R. Okay, forget what it stands for, but it's like a student of academic research or something. And it was this program that she was a part of where she was given an opaque pink liquid to drink, not to spit out. And she has memory lapses. Her father worked at the Department of Energy. She was. Yeah, it gets really weird.
[71:45]
Michael
No idea.
[71:46]
Chris
Oh, she only found this out recently. She put out a book called have a Nice Disclosure, and it was in there through. Because she was, I think, working with one of the intelligence agencies or something in some type of, like, official capacity. Nothing weird and nefarious, but she had to have, like, a background academic check. And then she took it very seriously. So she went and demanded her records from, like, kindergarten, grade one, grade two, and then found out that her. From grade one to grade seven, her evaluations were redacted.
[72:30]
Michael
Wow.
[72:30]
Chris
And she's like, huh? What do you mean? And she. FOIA requested and. And then she was waiting on this job, and the job's like, yeah, we don't know yet. We're kind of unsure. And the FOIA request was like, are you sure you want to pursue this? I'd need to know exact names of this and that. So she decided to drop it. Three minutes after dropping the FOIA request, she gets a phone call being approved to this program. And, like, it's. It's a very strange series of synchronous coincidences, but nonetheless, you know, she has these very strange memories. She even had a dream the night before we podcasted where she was in a room with this gentleman who she hasn't thought about since grade five or whatever, who was, like, this man in a suit telling her to leave her body and to, like, go out of body and into this tower and whatever. And, like, I was like, what?
[73:24]
Michael
What?
[73:25]
Chris
Yeah, it was insane.
[73:26]
Michael
But, God, dude.
[73:27]
Chris
Yeah. So she's definitely been part of, you know, one of these types of educational programs that they've had for children. Yeah.
[73:38]
Michael
Holy. So. So when I initially asked that, I. I meant in, like, a professional capacity. Like, had she been. Because she studied all of this size stuff, so it would stand to reason that if somebody was doing that, like, maybe she would be involved. And obviously, you can't talk about this stuff without it sounding like super nefarious. And dark, like experimenting. Doing psychical experiments on children and whatever. But, like, yeah, I didn't, I didn't expect you to say that. She, as a child was potentially involved in this stuff, but it actually kind of makes more sense, I feel like the further you go back, because we know for a fact that Stargate was going on. We know for a fact. Did I tell you that? Oh, yeah, I did tell you this, but like, when I had Greg Melosi on, I was not aware that there is an actual paper trail connecting SRI and. And Put off and Targ to Puharic and physically being at his east coast.
[74:33]
Chris
Right, yeah. And there's like, footage there as well.
[74:35]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the footage that I. That, yeah, that, that I've actually seen.
[74:39]
Chris
Well, there's footage of Hal put off and Russell Togg at Lab 9 in Ossining during these exact years. There's literally footage of them there. They're sitting on the front steps.
[74:49]
Michael
They're.
[74:49]
Chris
They're in the house. I mean, they were there for sure.
[74:52]
Michael
Wow.
[74:53]
Chris
So I can't remember who told me, but somebody, you know, very reliable was like, yeah, the whole Lab 9 thing was just like a cutout for those
[75:01]
Michael
programs because they could more easily work
[75:04]
Chris
with young people there than they could
[75:05]
Michael
in a more serious environment again. So we know then that there were tendrils reaching out in other directions. Right? Like, like, obviously any. You and I, every person talking about this, the idea that it was fully contained to this, like what we know about Project Stargate, and then it just ended with that, like, impossible to believe. But then you also start to like, just journalists like Greg, like, just digging up documents, like, finding stuff, you know, that, that nobody thought to. Like, yeah, maybe we better go through all these archives and see if there's like, stuff we don't want out there. Like, like, I put that in my teaser to him with, with him, I'm like, so do you think you're sitting on classified stuff? And he's like, yeah. And then we both just laugh because it's just like. But, But I can also kind of see why bother, right? Because with Puharic is almost like a human locus of all this that we're talking about, where he's a very smart guy, you know, went to an elite medical school, was in all of these elite circles and stuff like that. But then you hear all of the breadth of stuff that he talks about and you're like, it can't all be true. So then you're like, but how much of it is true?
[76:20]
Chris
What I'm really saying is that all of that is fiction. Like the Men in Black as a single example, that's all done by the CIA. They're trying to scare people away from recognizing UFOs. I don't know whether you're aware of that. 90% of the UFO sightings are the United States flying saucer fleet. They have a huge fleet. It's our primary line of defense. So they mutilate the cattle, they do all these horrible stories. Half of the abductions, I mean, it's all staged in the show business. It's not real. You have to be very smart to detect that. You have to remember that every government in the world is afraid that people will believe that there's something out there. Okay, and what are they? Why are they afraid the stock market is going to crash? Billions that have been invested, new product, they're not going to be carried out because it's all been done already. And on and on it goes. So we're dealing with a vast disinformation process here.
[77:16]
Michael
And how much of it was total New age fantasy co opting? Did he go crazy at a certain point? Did he go off the deep end at a certain point? Was he himself involved in super malevolent shit? And then it seems like he may have turned a corner at one point.
[77:31]
Chris
Most people around that age, I feel like that's the case. You look at Joe McMonagle, you know, you say, is everything he says? Is that the way it is? You know, and yeah, people of that era who were involved in these programs. You had John Alexander, you ever hear him talk? You know.
[77:49]
Michael
Well, I know he was just on the that why Files podcast.
[77:52]
Chris
Yeah.
[77:52]
Michael
Watch it? Did you watch it?
[77:53]
Chris
I watched like the first part of it and it was, it was pretty hard to get through because he was like, yeah, I feel like he was being purposely evasive, but I, maybe I got to give it another shot and watch the rest of it. But regardless, I think that whole generation, because information was much easier to, to be misleading and to be, yeah, you didn't have the access to information like we do today. And so it would be really hard to prove. So you would have to take people's word for it a lot. And the rank you had or the pedigree that you had academically determined how much your word was worth. And that kind of helped spread potentially a lot of misinformation back then because again, you didn't have the capacity to double check it and you couldn't publicly ask anybody about it. And so you would have to just listen to these whispers and take it from this colonel or this doctor that what they're saying is true. And I think because of that you get a lot of misinfo and a lot of like, which is why, you know, sunlight is the best way to sanitize anything. It's just like, let's get it all out there, let's declassify it all and go through it. Yeah. And if it was complete BS and bogus bullshit, then at least we'll know. But you know, classifying it further, only further creates speculation.
[79:23]
Michael
Yeah, and just to give the quick, you know, high level background, if people don't know this Andrea Puharic or Puharich character, he is pre Project Stargate. So pre. All of the stuff that we know about having to do with remote viewing and you know, that eventually going over to the army with people like Joe McMonagle, Paul Smith, etc. Etc. There was absolutely zero doubt. A lot of similar things going on in, in way more on, I don't want to say unsanctioned, but like hard to tell how official or how much. It's like a loose cannon. Scientists just doing a bunch of crazy science psychical experiments. So, so the kind of stuff this guy was doing, it's hard to even know where to start. But he was channeling what he thought were alien intelligences called the Nine. And he was using specific, you know, psychics that, that could get into this state to channel these beings. So there's, there's a whole number of them. Then eventually he moves on to this group of young people called the space kids, which is a little bit of a misnomer because I think they were actually adults, but they were like very young adults, you know, like 19, 20 age adults. And they're like living on his property doing psychical experiments all the time. So they're going in like Faraday chambers, they're channeling these beings called the Nine. They're, they're, they're trying to literally make you UFOs show up at various points. They're doing all kinds of stuff.
[81:02]
Chris
Maybe this bigger phenomena is that these kids are getting this power through some other intelligence. And there's tons of sessions of him like regressing in a sense these, these space kids and seeing if there's some connection there to, you know, another civilization. And according to him, there is. These kids would remember a past life of being on another planet, being in another part of another civilization.
[81:32]
Michael
One of the things that's very interesting that comes out of this Is not only like I said, you get, oh. And when I said there's a paper trail, he found an actual invoice. So it was like, like money going back and forth. Like SRI paying puharik for something in that, in that era, in that like I think early 70s era. So that's one thing. But the other thing that's very interesting is this completely changes the history of remote viewing, dude. Because right now the narrative of it's invented at SRI by Ingo Swan. And then they perfect that they were doing it, dude. They were literally doing things like we need funding to continue these experiments and we're meeting with General Blah Blah Blah tomorrow. Access General Blah Blah Blah's mind, find out where he is, figure out how we can like tell him exactly what he wants to hear to give us more money. And they're doing this on all on like more you know, espionage levels as well, like spying on foreign governments. Do it like dude, it is a crazy deep rabbit hole. And that's something I want to get more into with Greg. Next time I want to talk, that's next time I talk to him. Because like I feel like we glossed over that fact like that astonishment astounding fact that like no remote viewing obviously it goes back to like thousands of years if you just take it at its, you know, most high level, like non locally projecting your consciousness other places to get information. But in the US government it goes back further than, than the beginnings of Project Stargate for sure.
[83:02]
Chris
Yep. Yeah, it's fascinating stuff. And you know, it's, it's, it's, it's fun too because the reason it's so shrouded and well hidden is due to the fact that it isn't accurate. It's, it's, it's not reliable. It can be accurate, but it's not reliable. It's this sort of like, oh, a hit is, you know, is a confirm, a good confirmation. But like, because it's in this weird state of like, I can't hang my hat on anything a remote viewer tells me allows it to be shrouded more, allows it to be hidden because people, it's so easy to dismiss. But then when you do see something that's like really striking, like really accurate, you go, there's no way that you could have this information without knowing the target. And so it's a perfect little spy tool really.
[84:02]
Michael
Yeah, and I think you're totally right. I think it is both. I was gonna say 100 real. I won't say 100 real. I think it is extraordinarily high conviction, real.
[84:11]
Chris
I think it's being utilized 100. Whether it's real or not.
[84:15]
Michael
Yeah, and the second thing I was gonna say is it is very not. It is very unreliable. It's both. It's both real and it's. And unreliable. So it's. It's one of those things where. Because you just can't. I think the best that you can hope to do is find these extreme outlier individuals and just like, work them as much as possible to raise your statistical likelihood of. Of things. But even still doing that, like, let's say a McMonagle or like there's one particular. There's a story about. There's like this one particular quote, unquote, space kid who was by far the best, and she was traveling with Puharic and like, he was utilizing her abilities way more than everyone else's. Think her name's like, Sharon or something weird like that. I don't know if it's just Sharon and he just said it weird. But he's been trying to track her down for. For a long, long time. And I think he's been. Yeah. And she has. It's really interesting because he did. So he's got this documentary coming out that should be out anytime now on Puharic, and he did track down a number of these space kids and talk to them. And of course, they're all older now, but. But one of the few people that he has not been able to track down and everyone else lost touch with is this Shiron woman who he's got all these tapes with, who he has all this information on. But it. It really is an outstanding mystery, like where she is and was she pulled because of her unique abilities, was she pulled it deeper into other programs or like, put through some kind of mixer and, you know, identities change, broaden, who knows what. Yeah, I think that something like that is probably the best you could do is like, find these extreme outliers and just.
[85:59]
Chris
Just utilizes.
[86:01]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But who knows? Who knows? But it's fascinating stuff that I will continue to dig deeper into. Did. Did Moss. Was Mossbridge actively involved in remote viewing stuff?
[86:15]
Chris
Yeah, she touched on it that she considered herself to be like, a decent remote viewer and that, you know, she's very much into the psy stuff, into precognition specifically as well, and that she's had precognitive events and that type of thing. You know, it's. I mean, it's all very interesting coming from a cognitive neuroscientist I'll tell you that. You know, it's one thing when I say I had a dream that foretold, you know, the future, but when someone of her pedigree says it or claims it, it does, it does come with an extra, you know, an extra sense of weight to it.
[86:55]
Michael
Yeah, I need to talk to her for sure. Given that she was on your show, I imagine you talked a lot about, at least to some degree, the phenomenon and like what she thinks is going. What is.
[87:07]
Chris
Yeah, we, we didn't really touch on it much because she's very much of the mind of. Sure, there's something. But the way she puts it so elegantly is it's not about race cars in the sky. And that's something I think we agreed on. Whereas you come into this topic much like myself, very naive. And yes, they're flying saucers and they're very, well, maybe, but that isn't what matters. And so she's kind of researching what does matter, which is this perhaps field that we share with these entities that we're able to navigate here using our mind. And that realm where the mind exists could potentially be one where communication happens, where the entities show up, you know, that type of thing. And yeah, she's done some interesting stuff. I always think of Dr. Daryl Bem doing those experiments, but she did them
[88:20]
Michael
better
[88:24]
Chris
where the variables were more contained and she had similar positive results, proving precognition to like almost like, I think like half a second before, which is quite substantial.
[88:39]
Michael
Where they would show. Yeah, explain those.
[88:41]
Chris
Yeah, yeah. They would have two types of images. One would be an image that was very negative, very sort of trauma inducing, maybe a picture of a gun or something. And the other image was a neutral image, nothing really stimulating at all. And they found to a very, very high degree with every one of these tests that when shown an image of a violent nature, it would stimulate a physical, or sometimes, well, a physical response in the brain or on the skin up to close to half a second prior to the image being shown over and over and over and over where it didn't. When it was a neutral image.
[89:27]
Michael
Yeah.
[89:28]
Chris
And so that proves in a vacuum that precognition exists. And she's got a peer reviewed paper about this. But she had to dress it up in a way that appeased a lot of the scientific minds. I forget the term she had, but it was like a overly complicated term just to say precognition. But you can't say precognition.
[89:52]
Michael
Pre sensory registration of information.
[89:55]
Chris
Yeah, exactly. Some, yeah. Some word salad, you know, that makes it a little more digestible to these, to these clipboard types. But essentially, yeah, proving that this stuff does exist. And now where she is studying is like, okay, on the assumption that it does exist, because it does according to scientific evidence. Where do we go from there? How do we increase psychic function? And she's found through an accident that love or unconditional love increases it. I say accidentally because they have all these questions they ask the participants. And one of those questions happened to be, are you feeling loved right now? Have you ever felt unconditional love? Are you feeling it right now? That was one of the many, many questions that they were asked. And they weren't looking for that particularly. And then they found that that was the correlating piece of variable that was, that was present in all of the positive or most of the positive tests outcomes was that. And so then they started testing for that specifically and found, you know, an increased result there. So really interesting stuff, hard science, not just hypothesizing, not just woo stuff. She's very much into the hard science.
[91:16]
Michael
Yeah. That those kinds of psy experiments I think are the most compelling for me. Those like Daryl Bem style, like what you just described, the random number generator stuff is interesting too, but it's so. It's so much more. It's not tied up into any kind of emotional direct mechanism in the way that that is. Right. Like where it's like there's a negative image. You're going to have a negative emotional neurological reaction to that information. And it's just. Yes, we're showing it over and over and over again and in various iterations. And I know that that kind of experiment has been repeated over and over again. But the random number generator raider stuff is interesting, but it's not as it seems like you can manipulate it or maybe not through many different methods. There's still going to be divergences from the mean if somebody, nobody does anything. And you can either ascribe cause to that or not. Like you can say, oh, this traumatic event happened in the world. And look at this. The, the random number generator did something crazy. But then there's. Then you're not accounting for the times where it did or didn't do it. So.
[92:25]
Chris
And the observation effect and.
[92:27]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, you know, honestly to that point that I guess you could think of all of like quantum stuff as a kind of psi or at least like double slit experiment type stuff as sort of psi experiments in and of themselves because you're you know, you could construe that as consciousness changing the outcome.
[92:47]
Chris
But she, she also. One really interesting thing when she was studying remote viewing was, you know, I, I often discuss Dr. Edwin May's work where he would talk about how entropy would be a big factor in, you know, gaining access to a target. The more entropy something had, the clearer the target would come through for the remote viewer. So if you were to pour liquid nitrogen on, you know, at a location versus not doing it, then you would get a more accurate reading of the location with the liquid nitrogen. So kind of like a moth to a flame, our brain detects change. Even in the quantum state, we're able to detect change. And, and then. So I brought that to her and she said, actually what they found was whatever you thought was more intriguing, that would be a better target.
[93:46]
Michael
So novelty.
[93:48]
Chris
Yeah, in a sense, novelty or, or, yeah, whatever you found more intriguing. So, so let's say you find rocks really intriguing. A rock for me, might be very boring and I might not pick up on it. But if you're very intrigued by minerals and it's very intriguing to you, then you will have a more accurate session in regards to what you're intrigued about. And so it really doesn't have to do with entropy. According to her. Entropy is just more intriguing, naturally. And so it really is about whatever your mind finds more intriguing or appealing, that's what's going to offer a better session. And so that's why you might see a fluctuation between different remote viewers and different targets. I thought that was a really interesting piece of information. And they really measured, they asked people, you know, which targets they found more intriguing out of a list of like a thousand targets or whatever. And then once the remote viewing session happened, the people were remote view, and they would correlate that, oh, that was actually more intriguing to you, and you got a more accurate session out of it. And so really interesting studies based on that as well. So, like, the capability of psy is subjective really, to what your subconscious finds intriguing.
[95:06]
Michael
Yeah, and our buddy Adam Curry talks about this too. And there's a specific phrase that I wish I could remember, but it's. It's essentially the, you know, the sanctioned phrase meaning you get worse results for the same thing over time and.
[95:19]
Chris
Right.
[95:19]
Michael
And part of the explanation for that might be what you're talking about is
[95:23]
Chris
like, comes more mundane.
[95:24]
Michael
Yeah, it becomes more mundane. It becomes less novel. Therefore it, the. It drops off and it's. What's even crazier, man, is I think that there's something to this. I could be totally wrong with this, and this could be total misinformation. But I think there's something to this effect with prescription drugs. I think there's, like, a curve where, like, effectiveness goes down over time, and it's not just like antibiotics or something, where there's, like, you know,
[95:51]
Chris
drugs. Psilocybin is a. You know, is a. I mean, that's directly. If you take shrooms every day, you're gonna eat. You're gonna eat a, you know, four grams of shrooms by the end of the month and not be high.
[96:03]
Michael
Right. But there's a neural. There's a neural explanation for that, whereas I'm sort of hinting at maybe reality itself. Yeah, yeah. Like, maybe there is, like, a not strong, but perceptible psychical weight or something, you know? You know, toward novelty. And that would make sense, dude, because we. We as a species, like. And again, man, this goes back to the intelligence test thing is, like, if part of our species is supposed to be evolving, like, if there is some kind of teleological outcome. Right. Like, if we're in some tadpole kind of stage that may take thousands or millions of years or whatever, you would want there to be a teleological bend toward novelty because that's how you discover. That's how you create new things. That's how you, you know, continue looking for novel pieces of information that will, like, push you through the next membrane. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah, yeah.
[97:06]
Chris
It all makes sense. We figured it out, man.
[97:09]
Michael
I love it when we figure everything out on these podcasts. You. You know, another thing, there's been a few things that I've uncovered, and this is, like, going to almost sound like a non sequitur, but I don't think it really is, actually, because of everything we've been talking about. One of the other things I wanted to. To say that I came across when I was doing research for this video, and I actually brought this up to Paul Heineck, and he did not know this in one of Vale's newest books, because I was. I was specifically looking for information about where did all this Rosicrucian stuff start. Right. Because obviously this plays into my theory that there's something more akin to the esoteric going on with the phenomenon than there is nuts and bolts, you know, high technology. So I was trying to look for traces of Vale talking specifically about Rosicrucian stuff and, you know, maybe how he got into it, how deep into it he was. And I didn't really find that But I found a very interesting little comment in one of. You know, how he's been releasing these essentially, like these diary books.
[98:17]
Chris
Yeah, forbidden.
[98:18]
Michael
Yeah, Forbidden Science volume whatever. Whatever. I think it's. Yeah, I think it was either six. I want to say it was six. But one of the things he said about Hynek is I always thought Hynek was. So for people that don't know, Valet and Heineck are often said to be Rosicrucian in some capacity. And. And Paul told both you and I, I think, separately on both of our shows that his father took it seriously enough to. To follow Rosicrucian burial rituals when he died. And for people that don't know what Rosicrucianism is, it is this esoteric mystical tradition that arises in, like, the 17th century, but it is heavily predicated upon hermetic ideas. And a lot of these ideas that Chris and I have been talking about, like, there. There is this higher field of consciousness we're all tapped into. And not only is there that there's this whole unseen realm with both terrestrial beings, celestial beings, et cetera, et cetera, and there's. There is also this transformational component to it, like that human beings are going through this philosopher's stone type of purification and transformation, both, I think, on a macro level, like. Like we can ascend to a higher plane, and then also on a personal level, like within your own life. So. So there's a lot of. These are some of the. The pieces. And admittedly, it is a loose tradition, and it's one of those things where there's, like, modern manifestations of it that are. Might not be connected to the original stuff and there might look a little
[99:53]
Chris
more culty than others.
[99:55]
Michael
Yeah, there. And there, you know, some. The. The. The fun conspiracy theory is that there really is still a real Rosicrucian tradition out there that's operating, you know, totally similar, secretly. So, anyway, Hynek did eventually get deep enough into this that he followed, you know, the burial ritual. And the thing that's interesting that Vale said is I always thought that Hynek started out. I'm a straight lace scientist. You know, I just. I'm a materialist, kind of mainstream thinker. But that apparently is not true. And what Vale says in his book is that he had a conversation with Hynek where Hynek told him, I think the reason I was brought into these programs in the first place was because of my interest in the esoteric. And I was just like, holy. That, like, completely changes my thought and And I don't think he's saying that that a hundred percent was the case, but it at least totally changed my idea about, you know, I assumed he was interacting with all of these cases and these witnesses and then coming to that conclusion. Exactly. But I guess it wasn't that. It was like he was filtering all
[101:05]
Chris
those cases through that lens of Rosicrucianism.
[101:11]
Michael
That makes sense. Even more seriously.
[101:12]
Chris
Yeah, yep, that does make sense. But it also, you know, gives pause when you are collecting information. You shouldn't be filtering it through any type of lens. That suits your own personal bias.
[101:28]
Michael
That is true.
[101:29]
Chris
You know, so when you look at that, you think, oh, this control system, because he was outright a denier of Bob Lazar and all these other things and, you know, no valet.
[101:41]
Michael
Oh, okay, okay.
[101:42]
Chris
And so if you look at, you know, if it doesn't fit the narrative, then I'm just going to omit it from the record type deal. Yeah. It becomes, I, you know, I, I, I don't know, I would love to speak to Jacques Filet one on one about these things, but I also have a feeling, you know, he's very wise. You're going to get a lot of that, you're going to get a lot of great value out of speaking with him at any occasion you can, I'm sure. And it, it would be fun to hear his take on things.
[102:18]
Michael
Yeah.
[102:19]
Chris
But I'm also, you know, I, I think we touched on this before, but, like, at what point do you get to your life and you just kind of want to wrap it up all neatly, do you know what I mean? And you're kind of like, you're faced with mortality. And I'm not saying, you know, that you can't feel this way at the age of 50 or whatever, but I think when you're more and more faced with your own mortality, there has to be a pull to trying to package it neatly and put a nice bow on it before you sail off into the sunset. And I just don't know how ready I am to do that just yet, which is why I like juggling and balancing so many different hypotheses at the same time. And so although the control system idea is neat and it packages everything up very perfectly, I'm not ready to accept that as being what we're dealing with just yet. Or at least not solely. Yeah, yeah.
[103:27]
Michael
And that's actually one of the interesting things about Vallee is he sort of packages both of those two ideas together. Like, he seems to be a proponent of the control System idea, but also is very openly interested in, in these spiritual things. And I, that's, that actually is the thing that if I could ask him to explain the connective tissue between, I would love to hear, because that almost is like an example of when you hear some of these people who supposedly do have inside knowledge. Like I'm like a, like a McCasland or like a semi van or like a Lou Elizondo, whatever. And yeah, I know a lot of people just by saying any number of those names. Some people's buttholes, clench or whatever, but whatever. Like take, take your.
[104:13]
Chris
Or open.
[104:14]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, take your preferred insider archon of the truth. They all do seem to say some version of. Yeah, the spooky mental stuff is very real and very core to it. And then also the nuts and bolts is very important to it. And then for me, that's always like the piece of connective tissue I want to hear someone give a reasonable explanation for. And I think with Valet, it's the same thing with the control system. And his interest in the esoteric is like, I get that you, you seem to acknowledge in all of your books that there is this ancient deep phenomenon and pattern that has been occurring all throughout human history that is interacting with us in mercurial ways and is spiritual, but it's not just spiritual, it's technological. Yeah, but, but then, okay, so now what about the control system? Is it like, is one thing downstream of the other? Because I, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Like, I think he, he, he believes that they're interacting. But I also don't think he would say that it's totally, you can terminate it in a super advanced technology and that's what it really is. And I also don't think he would go the fully spiritual direction because he is so deeply into technology and he is like, you know, a computer scientist and like has patents and has worked for darpa. And so, yeah, man, I, I would be that, that would be like the main thing I would want to try to wrap my mind around.
[105:51]
Chris
Yeah, but maybe the evasiveness that he's shown in interviews in order, you know, to pin him down on that very question. Maybe, maybe that's more of a signal of he doesn't want to say. I don't know.
[106:07]
Michael
Yeah, it could be. Yeah. And I would, you know, he's almost one of those people where. Yes, of course I would love to have a filmed conversation with him, but I would almost rather like to have unfilmed conversations so I can just get a more by osmosis.
[106:22]
Chris
Yeah, he's a sage. He's a modern sage. He's the closest thing we have to like a. A ufo, you know, shaman, like. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's who we have is a Jacques Vallee. He's the, you know, he also represents the entire sort of. He represents every facet of ufology.
[106:45]
Michael
Yeah, he does. He's kind of like a platonic UFO guy where he, like, wants to talk about. Yeah, I'll talk about the math and the technicals and all the, like. Yeah, the national stuff, but then I'll go to the. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[106:58]
Chris
And he's been to probably more landing encounters and crash sites than any other human being on this earth. Yeah, you know, or at least top 10, I'm sure. You know?
[107:09]
Michael
Yeah, yeah. You know, I wonder what's going to end up happening with this, if anything. Again, like, it's so hard to understand how this could be a nothing burger. Like, if this is a nothing burger, then, like, where else do we have to go from here? Is this apparent lifting of the NDA stuff that just came out? Like, apparently now there's been.
[107:29]
Chris
I don't think that's how NDAs work, by the way. Well, yeah, but I don't think you can. Blanket statement you're lifted from your NDAs. The amount of national security that's involved with the, you know, the Reasoning behind the NDAs, I don't think can be easily just tossed aside like that. I don't think that that's how that works. I think it's. I think that's probably more appealing to his constituents and people who, in social media rather than in a practical sense. Because if you're like, oh, I can talk about my NDAs. All right, co. So this secret base out in Syria that we made, there was a UFO over that and you go, what secret base in Syria? Now Syria knows about the secret base. You can't release people of their NDAs that easily. This is preposterous. I don't understand how people don't see that. It's very simple that obviously there is national security implications with many of these things, maybe not all of them, and perhaps too much security on some. But you can't just put blanket statement, throw everything out the window and be like, tell. Tell us everything. Go ahead. Like that.
[108:43]
Michael
Right.
[108:43]
Chris
That's not. Their. Their entire national security has been built on secrecy. They're not just going to, you know, give it up to tell a cool story.
[108:53]
Michael
Yeah. And as usual, I'm speaking out of ignorance here. Like, I don't know what all the implications and nuance around this, like waving of the NDA's thing is. I would imagine it has to be waived in a controlled, safe way where initially it's all done in skiffs, you know, and, and whatever. But yeah, even, even if, yeah, that is the case, then we should be seeing, we should be hearing from the people that like to run their mouths, right? We should be hearing from the people like the Congress people who go into these skiffs and talk to these people and say, yeah, we're really getting stuff now. Like, it's really coming loose.
[109:32]
Chris
Like, yeah, but I mean, it's going to take months, right? That's like a, it's going to take time for that to happen. If that is the case where they have, they're allowed to speak in a skiff, it's going to take a long time. And then also Congress members who do run their mouths about this stuff are probably going to be, you know, told, hey, for, for everyone's security, please do not go on Twitter and talk about this. I mean, you know what I mean? Please do not try to get more followers using this story. I mean, so you can expect probably a doubling down of secrecy rather than, you know, more of a transparency arise from this. Because if more people are involved in a national security secret, that means less people are talking.
[110:20]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, but, but with people like Vale and put off and all these other people of that era being where they're at, my God, I hope somebody gets them in a room and, and lets them let loose.
[110:35]
Chris
I mean, they probably already have multiple times.
[110:37]
Michael
My guess that, that to me really is one of the best. You know, I, I often, you know, anytime, especially I'm having the first conversation with somebody, you know, like a, who's really interfaced with this question deeply, whether, you know, it's like a Dolan or it's, you know, James Fox or whoever. I always, and I think I've probably asked you the same question, the, the whole why now? Question of disclosure. I think that might be really one of the best why nows is that you have so many people who are about to die that don't have not been able to like actually share all of the information that they have due to the fact that they've been within the military industrial complex for 45 years and they have 50 different NDAs from like 10 different sources or whatever. So they can't tell every, anybody everything they know. And if you can't get that information out of those people before they die, it's just going to be gone.
[111:34]
Chris
And, yeah, calculate all the amount of people who have died with that information that have never come forward at all in any capacity because they were doing their job. So many more, thousands probably. Do you know what I mean? Like the. That's. I. I would say the lack of sense of patriotism as we move forward is what's going to have this thing break at the seams. Patriotism was probably the number one impetus for keeping the secret in the first place. Coming out of World War II, coming out of the Manhattan Project, being a hero for keeping a secret, you know, for your country. That mentality continued on through the decades to follow the alleged crash retrievals. And so, if anything, I think patriotism was the number one thing keeping everything at bay. And I think as that wanes due to current or future mishaps in administration, I think we're going to. You're probably going to see a lot more information arise from people who are just not aligned with what their government is doing. And if you look at the likes of the Epstein files, which nobody aligns with. And so the sense of patriotism is waning as well. And so I would suspect a lot more people like Matt Brown, Dylan Borland, who are clearly. And David Grush, who see a sense of patriotism in coming forward rather than keeping the secret.
[113:15]
Michael
Yeah.
[113:16]
Chris
And I think as more light is being shed on the corruption, I think that. That hopefully will be for a lot of these whistleblowers and people within the program, a stimulant into having them come forward as that action being something that is patriotic rather than, you know, unpatriotic.
[113:35]
Michael
Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, the question of. Again, that immediately hits my mind is like, even if we get the information, are we going to end up being disappointed? Is it going to be another, you know, of course you are like, this is the wizard of Oz moment right here. And it's. No, it's not, though. It's.
[113:54]
Chris
It's no. You're going to be. No spoiler alert. There's no. No, that's the way that. That's the way how that works.
[113:59]
Michael
Right.
[113:59]
Chris
I'm going to show you a magic trick. You're going to be like, oh, my God, if I only knew how that worked, I'd be happy. I'll show you how it works. And you're. You're going to be less happy, I promise you. But did you see.
[114:09]
Michael
Yeah, sorry. Sorry to interrupt you. I was going to say, did you See, though, as a counterpoint, Hal. I don't even know where this was, but Hal was having some conversation on, like, a panel somewhere, and it might have. It might have been with Grush. I'm. I'm drawing a blank now. I know there's a woman who is, like, a moderator or hosting it or something, but she said, you know, made a joke, like, all right, well, just, you know, it'll just be between you and me and everybody in this room. And then everybody laughed or something. And then she asked a question, like, is there, like. Like, what percentage of, like, what, you know, have you said? And, like, is there a lot of, like, really actually important, consequential things that you could say that you can't say? And he's like, oh, yeah, I've said very little. Like, he said something like that. So. So, you know, there are moments like that where it's like, God damn it, he does know. He does know some. But. Yeah, man, I just. I don't know.
[115:04]
Chris
I had a. I had a recent conversation with Richard Doty.
[115:09]
Michael
Really?
[115:10]
Chris
Yeah.
[115:10]
Michael
Bro in the Skiff?
[115:12]
Chris
Yep.
[115:13]
Michael
Wow. Tell me more.
[115:16]
Chris
And, well, I mean, he worked with Hal for, like, a dozen years, right?
[115:20]
Michael
Really? I didn't even know that.
[115:22]
Chris
Yeah.
[115:23]
Michael
In what capacity?
[115:25]
Chris
NIDs, I think. And, like, that whole thing.
[115:28]
Michael
Okay.
[115:29]
Chris
Yeah, according to Dodie, he had a brother, really good relationship with Hal, and he was saying how, you know. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that they can't talk about, but they've been to, like, sites and whatnot and, you know. But take it from Dodie, I don't know, he can say whatever he wants to say. You know what I mean? That's the one guy that could tell you the truth, and no one's going to buy it, so.
[115:52]
Michael
No one.
[115:53]
Chris
He is an interesting person to interview because every piece of information you get out of him, you're like, hold on. This might be complete bullshit, or this might be the truth, but we're just never going to believe it. And that's insane.
[116:06]
Michael
Okay, to so. To zoom out on two things. So, one, Richard Doty is the quintessential psyoper extraordinaire. He is synonymous with the idea of disinformation and psyopping within the UFO community. He's like the subject of movies like Mirage Men, where he is, you know, specifically driving people insane. Benowitz in particular.
[116:31]
Chris
Well, I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say he is specifically driving them insane. I think that might be overstepping a little bit. I think. Well, I Think in an official capacity. He was by orders, according to him. And I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt of that. But you know, he was gaslighting someone in order to protect some type of secret program or national security, whatever, you know.
[117:03]
Michael
Well, he was breaking into people's houses and putting, moving things around and like putting things on, like messing, I mean just like do it. Doing things that legitimately would. Even if you didn't have a pre existing mental illness.
[117:17]
Chris
Sure.
[117:17]
Michael
You, you would. I, I would definitely start.
[117:20]
Chris
It would send you spiraling. Yeah, yeah. You know, and then that's. If you want to be mad at that, you could be mad at him, but you could also be mad at the establishment that allegedly allowed that to happen and that gave him those orders, which was the Office of Special Investigations, which continues to do that. Do you know what I mean? Like in like that's the one. This is the one time that you get to hear about it. You think that that's an isolated case. Like their agents aren't doing this constantly. Do you know what I mean? Like, like the anger obviously can be funneled to Richard Doty and everybody has the right to be frustrated, but I mean, shouldn't you be holding the entire agency responsible for making this happen? Shouldn't they be brought into Congress for spying on their own citizens and creating these psyops? Like, I mean this is, it's a bigger conversation than Richard Doty for sure.
[118:17]
Michael
Totally, totally. So the other big zoom out piece of context I wanted to give is little, little fourth wall breaking. When you go up to do Chris's pod. Chris is hanging, he's spending time, he's, you know, we're so, so point being, I'm assuming you did the same thing with, with Doty. Yeah. What, what was it just like hanging out with that guy and like, you know.
[118:44]
Chris
Yeah, he's a, he's a very affable guy. He's, he's nice, he's funny, he's quick witted, he's sharp. I think he likes the bullshit. Like in a non professional sense. He enjoys a good story. He likes laughing. There's, there's, you know, I didn't get any flags in terms of like, oh, he's insane, none of that. Very, very stable person. Now the things that come out of his mouth, you know, is really like I would caution everybody to treat it the same way. I treat all information that is provided through my channel at least, which is, yeah, take it as you would anything and you know, don't believe anything Outright and don't disbelieve anything outright. Just kind of take the information as it is and see if gels with some of the other information that you've collected in the past. That being said, I think we went four hours and I could have done another four.
[119:55]
Michael
Wow.
[119:55]
Chris
Because at dinner we're like, oh, we didn't even talk about that. Or we didn't talk about this, we should have talked about that. Like, oh my gosh. Yeah. And even during the podcast there were a few points where he was visibly uncomfortable and was like, I, I don't want to get. I. We can't get into that any further.
[120:14]
Michael
What made him uncomfortable?
[120:15]
Chris
Just pushing him on, on like, well, what do you mean by that? Well, you say this so flippantly. Like, what do you mean? You know, what's the name of the program? Who's involved? What's this person's name? Oh, you're claiming this person had an alien abduction that you investigated and that you. And this is, this is the big one. They allegedly a multi agency thing, you know, osi, nsa, CIA, whatever. He wouldn't name the agencies. I named them and I was like, these guys, these guys. And he's like, can't say you can't say. Take it for what you will, but apparently they've thwarted alien abductions.
[120:54]
Michael
Okay.
[120:56]
Chris
Which is like to me, I'm like, that's gotta be one of the most insane things I've ever heard. And then he gives the background story behind it, the person involved who's apparently testified in Congress in a skiff. And if that story ever comes out, it's going to like blow the lid. Allegedly, according to him. Which I'm very stimulated by a story like that. I think that's very interesting because it involves a certain type of entity as well, which is very interesting to talk about. But yeah, lots of like fun stories, I would say stories about him being on site when they retrieved UFOs that were like in a mine shaft and like some other. That like I think he hinted like Hal might have been present in some of these things too. And like, yeah, so like very interesting conversations.
[121:50]
Michael
And did he provide the sinew for like, okay, how, why would he be there? Like what, what is the context for.
[121:57]
Chris
Yeah, every single time. And it wasn't in like a, a very important capacity. Like he wasn't the go to person for any of that stuff. It seemed to always be circumstantial and then he had to be read in because of, you know, what happened or he was sent here and then he got talked to someone and they weren't supposed to tell you that. And then they got sent him back and he's got to fill out another paper. We talked about him being present at the Mario woods interrogation as well. You know where Mario woods in 77 had that crazy thing happened to him at Ellsworth Air Force Base. The missing time, the giant orb, the aliens, whatever. And he was then debriefed by the colonel on base at the Air Force base. And in the room was Richard Doty and this other gentleman who was his superior. Richard was like being taught. And this was before allegedly Richard was read into the program to a certain degree. And he has a picture of the officer that was with him, which I have to show to Mario. I'd be like, hey, this is the guy that was the OSI officer that was feeling around your mouth for two or three minutes looking for a device.
[123:02]
Michael
Whoa, dude.
[123:04]
Chris
And I asked him about that. I was like, what's going on with that? And they were like, yeah, they were looking for an implant. And like so again, it can help piece together something. Yeah, it can help maybe misdirect. All of these things are possible. Of course it does stand to be said that the disinformation stuff that he came forward about all happened during his time at osi. Was he involved in disinfo. Misinfo Afterwards, after his professional, you know, he says that he really wasn't. And so this is the question where you have to ask yourself is at what level of integrity do you take any of this information because of his past?
[124:00]
Michael
Well, it is at least plausible, right, that if you came to fame through one very small part of your career as like a counter intel OSI officer, and now everybody knows you for that, it's at least plausible that you were doing all kinds of other stuff as well. And that, that does not like that role, does not, yeah. Give an accurate picture of everything you've done. So yeah, I mean, dude, I don't know. I mean of course throw this on the heap of all of the like other sense making lines, landmines, epistemological landmines that are, that are. In this whole conversation. He was involved in the whole Dulce Bates too thing. Or no, wait, maybe just Benowitz was involved in Dulce.
[124:46]
Chris
Yes, but like he was, you know, involved in seminating disinformation to William Moore to like, you know, a lot of the people within the UFO community. They were tasked to infiltrate the UFO community specifically because like he said a lot of times Experiencers, they would call places like New Fork or whatever prior to calling the authorities or prior to calling the Air Force or the osi. And so to be first at the scene, infiltrating into the mufons, the new Forks, the Kufos, would be imperative if you were trying to control this narrative. And so, you know, I was like, follow up question is that what's happening with MUFON? He's like, oh, 100%. He's like, 100%. These agencies are infiltrated. And, you know, I even say to myself, like, how could they not be? If you're an intelligence gathering agency and this stuff is potentially real, how could you willfully ignore being part of that community in good conscience, if you're trying to protect national security, you would have to be infiltrated. Right. So, you know, he says a lot of things that make a lot of sense and a lot of good stories. I would say take them like you take anything. But one thing that I do enjoy on my channel is having people suspend their disbelief, getting to hear all sides of the story, and, you know, having these very interesting things to then ruminate in your mind. And I think in that sense, it's going to be one of the most interesting conversations that people will hear because it does raise a lot of questions, personally. What if what he's saying is true? Are we allowed to believe him now? Do we want to believe him? Does he even deserve to be listened to? All these questions are going to be asked by the audience, but if you give it a chance and listen to it, you're going to be, if nothing else, thoroughly entertained.
[126:52]
Michael
Yeah, you've got some banger guests coming up, man. You've had him. You've had Mossbridge. Who else you got come in this week?
[127:00]
Chris
Actually, tomorrow. Thomas Jane's coming in.
[127:03]
Michael
Oh, cool.
[127:03]
Chris
Yeah, yeah, very.
[127:04]
Michael
Met him at Contact.
[127:05]
Chris
Yeah, yeah, that's right. We also. Jason quit. Is going to be this. Oh, nice. Friday.
[127:11]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one.
[127:15]
Chris
Yeah. He was fun to talk to as well. And then I traveled to Seattle and I talked to Jonathan Reed as well, so.
[127:22]
Michael
Mmm. Traveling. Traveling. He must have been. He must have been highly worth it for you to. Jonathan Reed, break out of the skiff.
[127:29]
Chris
Do you know the name?
[127:30]
Michael
I don't. Honestly, I know the name. I don't know the story.
[127:33]
Chris
You ever hear of the guy who bludgeoned an alien in the woods and filmed it?
[127:37]
Michael
Oh, shit, okay. I guess not.
[127:40]
Chris
And then dragged his body into his freezer and then filmed it further?
[127:43]
Michael
Oh, yes. No, I Think I have. I think I have, yes.
[127:46]
Chris
Yeah.
[127:47]
Michael
Wow.
[127:48]
Chris
Spent like three and a half hours talking to him as well.
[127:51]
Michael
Did he. Did he show you a test tube filled with alien blood?
[127:55]
Chris
Not really, but he did show me some interesting things, but I'll let the audience decide on that one. That one gets wild real quick. My conviction level, I would say on the initial account of him meeting an alien, slightly higher. Really? Talking to him, Slightly higher. Initially low anyways, but slightly higher. Definitely not over 50%, but like just slightly above where it was, I think, on everything that happened after. Lower conviction. And so interesting conversation, regardless, to have with someone like that, where you get. Where you get to posit these really strange ideas and then just kind of let it go and move on afterwards, I think is healthy.
[128:41]
Michael
Isn't it funny that there's always aliens in the woods for some reason?
[128:44]
Chris
Yeah.
[128:45]
Michael
Like, what are they doing in there?
[128:46]
Chris
Yeah. Camping out.
[128:49]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what that does make me think of, though, is have you ever seen that video of the shamans who are shown a picture of a gray alien and they're like, speaking. I don't know if they're speaking Spanish people or whatever. Yeah. And they're like, oh, those are. They live under. They, like live underground or something.
[129:02]
Chris
Yeah, I thought that was.
[129:04]
Michael
Yeah, it's fascinating.
[129:05]
Chris
Yeah. I thought that was one of the cooler nuggets. I would love to have someone like that on the show.
[129:11]
Michael
Yes. No. Yeah. You and I were talking about. You were. You were saying you need to have more shamans on the show. And I agree. And, you know, I actually found at
[129:18]
Chris
least indigenous folk, first nations people who have, you know, a deeper history with this stuff. Really. Really a long history. Like, we are to them just, like, scratching the surface blindly.
[129:32]
Michael
Right.
[129:33]
Chris
But at the same time simultaneously being like, oh, we're so knowledgeable about this stuff. And they're looking at us rolling their eyes, being like, dude, you have no idea what you're even. Like, you've no idea.
[129:44]
Michael
One of the things I have to follow up on is there is. So, you know my buddy Colin, who you met last year?
[129:50]
Chris
Yeah.
[129:51]
Michael
He did a. He scored this new documentary on the whole extended state DMT study. And, you know, as such, met and became aware of a lot of people that were involved in this. And there's this. This philanthropist guy who helped fund that study, and he participated in the study as well. Like, he was one of the guys, but he also flew his personal shaman in to do the extended state. And so his personal shaman also went through that. I Want to talk to that guy? Yeah, because that's a guy who's, who's got that whole cultural worldview and training of shamanism and then has also been under extended state dmt. So I feel like that would be a really fascinating conversation.
[130:36]
Chris
Would you ever do the extended say stuff?
[130:38]
Michael
Dude, I, it's like, it's intimidating for sure. I mean it's, it's, you know, I know what it's like to have like a heroic dose level experience of things and it's like incredibly intense. And the idea of being in that state state for indefinite amounts of time is very intimidating. But I, I've talked to Danny Goler about it. He did like one of the insane, you know, five hour ones and he said his experience was incredibly angelic and just immediate, like catapulted into higher angelic realm type things. And he had all these experiments that he wanted to do.
[131:17]
Chris
Like, doesn't that making, doesn't that make being human just so dull?
[131:21]
Michael
It seems like it would, bro.
[131:23]
Chris
Right? Like, why would you want that? I don't understand. I'm very happy having my mind blown by things that I can touch and see.
[131:31]
Michael
Wouldn't it bring some sort of like existential perspective though that you could then bring back?
[131:37]
Chris
Well, I've had experiences like with psychedelics, but again, it just brings me to the like, what's the hurry? Like, like, you know what I mean? Like I'm trying to experience what it's like being non physical. Why?
[131:55]
Michael
Well, like, see, see, I knew we'd circle back to this conversation because I feel like then, because then I feel like it informs your understanding of what you are on a deeper level and then you're able to operate in this life that we have now in a sort of different way, you know.
[132:12]
Chris
But how many times do you need to do that before you can start operating in that way?
[132:15]
Michael
Well, maybe you don't, maybe, maybe you don't need it. Like, maybe you are comfortable with your immortality. You, you have perspective, whatever, but a lot of people don't. And you have a platform that you, you have the ability to, you know, if you, if you come back with like the afterglow of some like deep, deep knowing and you share that with people that. I think that has a big ripple
[132:35]
Chris
effect, you know, maybe, yeah, maybe I'm just some pompous prick who's got too much money and time on his hands that he does drugs on the side.
[132:44]
Michael
That's for sure. No, but. Well, that's one of the things I love about you, dude. Is that even though you are, you know, a success, successful person is. I do. You're clearly often thinking about other people. You're clearly, you know, a very generous, down to earth person. And you, you've pretty much displayed that in all of our, in all of our hangs, man. So.
[133:07]
Chris
Well, thank you. I appreciate that, Michael, and likewise.
[133:10]
Michael
Thanks, brother. Speaking of hangs, I'm very excited to come out on the road with you in, in just 10 days, I guess.
[133:19]
Chris
Yes.
[133:20]
Michael
Yeah, it's going to be awesome, man. I can't wait.
[133:22]
Chris
Yeah, it's probably nothing.com for tickets. We'll be hitting that road. Can't wait, man. We got a few really interesting guests that you're. You're coming to sf, right? San Francisco.
[133:36]
Michael
That's when we'll meet up. Yep, yep.
[133:37]
Chris
Yeah, that's after la, right?
[133:39]
Michael
Yes.
[133:40]
Chris
Oh, so you're gonna miss Bashar. Oh, man. But you're gonna get. We got Whitley in San Francisco.
[133:47]
Michael
Oh, cool.
[133:48]
Chris
Yep. Josh Polarity also going to be there. Plus like, there's always. What's cool is that these places always have people show up that you recognize or that you know. Right. That are around. And then secondly, the audience participation part of it, where we get to bring up an audience member. And so because you're going to be on that show with me, you're going to be able to read the audience submissions with me and we'll together pick who we want to interview.
[134:13]
Michael
Awesome.
[134:13]
Chris
And that for me is like one of the most exciting things about this tour is getting people who like, watch the show or whatever share their experience. And often, like, these people could write a book. Like, their experiences are just as insane, if not more than anything you've ever heard. And that's something that I love shedding a light on, is that this doesn't happen to people who have books only. This happens to the literally very normal people.
[134:40]
Michael
I'm also really stoked that it's going to be at that palace of Fine Arts, because that place, like every time I go to San Francisco, I go there like my. I have family out in, in San Fran and that's one of the places I'm.
[134:51]
Chris
Oh, are they gonna come to the show?
[134:53]
Michael
I. I haven't even talked to them yet because this is all kind of.
[134:56]
Chris
I'll get them tickets really quickly, but for sure we'll put them on the guest list, tell them to come by.
[134:59]
Michael
Cool, cool. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll extend the invitation. But yeah, that place, for anybody that hasn't seen it, it's just like. There's essentially these, like, Greco Roman ruins in the middle of the San Francisco that I think they built for, like, a world's fair, and then they just, like, reconstructed it or. I don't know how the fuck they moved it, but. But, yeah, man. Why don't we have World's Fairs anymore? Like, those sound like, the most cool, you know?
[135:26]
Chris
It's so cool. I think they still have them in, like, in. I think Tokyo or Japan had one.
[135:33]
Michael
Oh, yeah, they just had one. Like Osaka. I remember reading about that. Yeah.
[135:36]
Chris
And then also, I think Dubai has their own. Own version of it as well, which is, like, very high tech.
[135:43]
Michael
Yeah.
[135:44]
Chris
You know? Yeah, I'm excited about that.
[135:47]
Michael
Yeah. And I guess now it's more about, like, computers and robots, not, like, building megalithic structures and, like, shooting electricity through the air, like.
[135:56]
Chris
Yeah.
[135:56]
Michael
Or like a tram style or something.
[135:59]
Chris
Like a. You know, We've got the tram.
[136:03]
Michael
Yeah.
[136:04]
Chris
Yeah.
[136:05]
Michael
All right, brother. Always an absolute blast. Can't wait to hang with you on the road. And congrats on all of your continued success, of course.
[136:14]
Chris
Thanks. Likewise. And thanks to your audience for listening.

Summary7 min read

Podcast Summary: THIRD EYE DROPS – The UFO Psyop and the Consciousness Control System | Chris Ramsay

Host: Michael Phillip
Guest: Chris Ramsay
Episode Date: August 12, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of THIRD EYE DROPS explores the labyrinthine topics of UFOs, government psyops, narrative manipulation, and the intricate relationship between consciousness and "the phenomenon". Host Michael Phillip and guest Chris Ramsay—renowned for his open-minded yet critically sober approach—navigate everything from government disinformation tactics, the psychological effects of the information age, the lure of disclosure, and deeper esoteric questions around ontology and consciousness. Along the way, they swap insights about cutting-edge experiments and interviews with high-profile figures in the field, blending speculation with nuanced skepticism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Psyops in UFO Discourse

Multi-agency Involvement (00:45, 120:13)
Chris shares stories of alleged multi-agency efforts (OSI, NSA, CIA) to thwart alien abductions, hinting at insiders who have testified in classified settings.
Notable quote:
Chris (01:45): “Apparently they've thwarted alien abductions... to me, that's gotta be one of the most insane things I've ever heard.”
The Subtle Psyop: Algorithmic Manipulation (04:09, 05:46)
Both agree that overt manipulations (community infighting, flashy disinfo) may be less effective than subtle, persistent narrative control via algorithms and media feeds—leading to subconscious shifts in worldview.
Michael (05:46): "We live in a time now where informational ghosts... get smashed into your face over and over... you can just spend your entire day on inconsequential brain rot that isolates you from everything."
Flooding the Zone and Reality Tunnels (18:48, 19:51)
‘Flooding the zone’ with conflicting narratives fragments sense-making, prompting people to retreat into “islands of coherence” (nationalism, religion, politics)—akin to Robert Anton Wilson's “reality tunnels.” Michael (19:53): "...this idea that everyone is living in their own weird, unique tunnel of reality and they think that it's real. They don't see it for the Plato's cave that it is."
Confusion as a Tactic (15:15)
Chris recognizes that proliferating inconsistent narratives may itself be an accidental (or intentional) psyop, fostering confusion and resistance to new information.

2. Modern Identity, Avatars, and Anchoring in Reality

Online Avatars vs. Authentic Connection (07:24, 09:59)
Chris reflects on how our curated online personas create distance from real-world connections, advocating for face-to-face interactions as a form of anchoring in reality.
“But did you hear the birds?” (11:16)
A phrase to refocus on immediate, physical reality amid virtual overload.

3. Disclosure: Gradualism, Skepticism, and Ontological Humility

Transition vs. Event (24:00, 27:14)
Chris argues for a slow, generational shift toward UFO disclosure rather than a climactic, confirmation-event, highlighting humanity's evolving access to information and ever-deepening questions.
The Problem with Craving Answers (27:14, 28:48)
Many UFO-obsessed individuals would reject any answer not matching their expectations; instead, Chris advises, act as if you have the answer and move on to better questions.
Epistemic Humility (30:01)
Michael stresses not holding beliefs so tightly that no evidence could change your mind, cautioning against seeking validation over truth. Michael (30:01): “If you don't think you're susceptible to a psyop, you're the most susceptible person to a psyop.”

4. Raising and Lowering Conviction: What's Real? What's Hype?

Government Knowledge and Disillusionment (36:41, 38:07)
Chris’s conviction in the “front-facing” government’s knowledge of UFOs/UAPs has waned, viewing most official releases as "dog and pony shows."
Chris (38:10): “I'm sorry. This is not worth it. This is not worth my time. It's not worth anybody's time. We have better evidence... from civilians.”
The Nature of Testimonies (47:25, 50:10)
Encounters with sincere, non-public experiencers have raised Chris’s conviction that genuine, anomalous phenomena interact with select individuals.
Nature of the Phenomenon: Consciousness as Substrate (51:37, 56:37)
Both discuss the model that reality is fundamentally constructed from consciousness, citing Don Hoffman's research and the “cloud” or Akashic Records as omni-accessible information fields.

5. Intelligence Tests and the Phenomenon (61:31, 64:41)

Reality as a Rubik’s Cube
The duo explores the idea that reality (and anomalous phenomena like DMT entities or UFO contact) presents staged “intelligence tests” that nudge human evolution. Michael (61:31): “Reality has built in intelligence tests... once you solve that question, it literally brings human consciousness to a new level.”
Dreams, Psi, and Healing (64:41, 70:16)
Chris relays how mental time travel and unconditional love affect psi phenomena, referencing Dr. Julia Mossbridge’s research. Chris (69:41): “She’s done hard science... proving that love enhances psychic ability.”

6. Historical Programs, Remote Viewing, and Dis/Misinformation (74:32, 83:02)

Real Roots of Remote Viewing
The discussion dives into the legacy of Andreja Puharic, the “space kids,” SRI, and the US government’s deeper history with psychic experiments predating Stargate.
Reliability and Utility (83:02, 84:14)
Remote viewing is both real and unreliable—extraordinarily accurate in rare cases but inconsistent, ideal for espionage because the results can’t be depended upon.
Subjective Performance in Psi (93:47)
What remote viewers find novel or intriguing substantially affects accuracy—a shift from a pure “entropy” model to subjective novelty.

7. Esotericism, Hermeticism, and the UFO Control System (97:06, 101:28)

Hynek, Vallee, and Rosicrucianism (99:53, 101:28)
Hynek’s early interest in mysticism may have guided his approach to UFO inquiry; Vallee combines spiritual, technological, and “control system” views.
Control System Theory
The “control system” and the spiritual/technological entwining is discussed, with both skepticism and respect for Vallee's depth, but reluctance to settle on one comprehensive answer.

8. NDAs, Disclosure, and Changing Notions of Patriotism (107:29, 113:14)

Limits of Declassification (107:29, 108:52)
Chris pushes back against the idea that government NDAs on secrets can simply be universally lifted for the sake of disclosure.
Patriotism’s Wane (113:33)
As patriotism declines, more insiders may feel incentivized to break silence, reframing whistleblowing as patriotic.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Michael (14:51): “There has to be narrative manipulation, psyop disinformation, willfully involved… but I don't believe it could be the puppet master controlling the whole conversation.”
Chris (16:32): “The term psyop is thrown around far too easily… confusion is probably the best tactic of all.”
Michael (28:33): “Maybe I'm not really looking for truth. Maybe I'm looking for validation.”
Chris (38:10): “It’s a joke. This, and the science advisory board and all that BS. It's all a dog and pony show."
Michael (51:37): "We possess the ability psychically to tap into non-physical sources of information. That’s a strong conviction."
Chris (69:41): "Love encapsulates everything... Unconditional love enhances psychic ability.”
Chris (95:06): “The capability of psi is subjective, really, to what your subconscious finds intriguing.”

Guest Deep Dives & Upcoming Content

Dr. Julia Mossbridge (Remote Viewing & Psi Science) –
Experiments on precognition, information fields, and the effect of love on psychic function.
Richard Doty Interview (115:08) –
The infamous “UFO psyoper” shares tales of disinformation, abduction intervention, and government involvement, but with the caveat that all his claims come with asterisks.
Chris (118:43): “He's a very affable guy... every piece of information you get out of him, you're like, hold on. This might be complete bullshit, or this might be the truth, but we're just never going to believe it.”
Jonathan Reed (127:21) –
Interview about an alleged alien encounter (the “alien in the freezer” case).
Upcoming Episodes:
- Thomas Jane
- Jason Quit

Timestamps for Important Segments

Psyop Narratives & Algorithmic Control: 04:09 – 07:24
Anchoring Reality & “Did You Hear the Birds?”: 11:16
Disclosure as Process, Not Event: 24:00 – 28:48
Conviction Levels Discussion: 36:17 – 50:10
Consciousness as Reality Substrate: 51:37 – 56:37
Intelligence Tests & Evolution: 61:31 – 64:41
Psi Research with Dr. Mossbridge: 69:41 – 93:47
Remote Viewing Retrospective: 74:32 – 84:14
Esoteric Traditions in UFOlogy: 97:06 – 101:28
NDAs & Disclosure Politics: 107:29 – 113:33
Richard Doty & Government Disinfo: 115:08 – 124:45
Firsthand UFO Encounter Interviews (Jonathan Reed, etc.): 127:21 – 134:39

Conclusion

This episode offers a wide-ranging, nuanced meditation on how our beliefs about UFOs and the phenomenon are shaped by narrative manipulation—by both overt government psyops and the subtler, everyday grind of algorithmic information flows. Ramsay and Phillip dissect the psychological, spiritual, and social ramifications of endlessly multiplying stories, emphasizing the value of epistemic humility and the pursuit of better questions over definitive answers.

Despite spasms of optimism about the potential for new revelations, both agree that the most fulfilling path may not be in chasing official confirmation, but in exploring the edges of consciousness itself—through direct experience, sincere conversation, and the slow, collective drive toward meaning.

For More

Upcoming live tour dates: itsprobablynothing.com
Chris Ramsay's interviews: YouTube and podcast
THIRD EYE DROPS exclusive content: Patreon and Member’s channel

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Transcript356 lines

[00:02]
Michael
Late night bites with friends already hard
[00:05]
Chris
to beat that first too hot bite of fries you couldn't wait for, followed by ice cold Pepsi. Now that hits different. Suddenly the energy kicks back in, the night goes longer and the laughs don't stop. Because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more
[00:20]
Michael
fun, and more of the moment.
[00:22]
Chris
Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi. Zero sugar today. Hello, gentle listener. The Nocturnal Transmissions podcast, your friendly provider of delightfully dark, short horror fiction, has a new episode available. And it goes a little bit like this. Stella would be in bed by the time he arrived, but he would lean over and kiss her sleeping cheek.
[01:01]
Michael
Then he would undress and climb into bed beside her.
[01:09]
Chris
In the morning, when she woke, Stella would have no idea that it was a stranger who lay beside her in bed. That it was in fact some
[01:23]
Michael
thing
[01:25]
Chris
from off the moors. The Nocturnal Transmissions podcast.
[01:36]
Michael
Come get some.
[01:45]
Chris
And this is, this is the big one. Allegedly a multi agency, you know, osi, nsa, CIA, whatever. He wouldn't name the agencies. I named them. And I was like, these guys, These guys. And he's like, can't say, can't say. Apparently they've thwarted alien abductions, which is like. To me, I'm like, that's gotta be one of the most insane things I've ever heard. And then he gives the background story behind it, the person involved who's apparently testified in Congress in a skiff. And if that story ever comes out, it's going to blow the lid. You know, I had Dr. Julia Mossbridge on recently.
[02:19]
Michael
Oh, awesome. Yeah, yeah.
[02:20]
Chris
And I was able to talk to her at great lengths about this non local omnipresent cloud of information. You want to call it the Akashic records. You want to call it, you know, field, whatever. Yeah, she was a part of GATE program.
[02:34]
Michael
Part of.
[02:35]
Chris
She was given an opaque pink liquid to drink, not to spit out. And she has memory lapses. Her father worked at the Department of Energy. Yeah, it gets really weird.
[02:48]
Michael
No idea.
[02:49]
Chris
So she went and demanded her records from like kindergarten, grade one, grade two, and then found out that her evaluations were redacted. Whoa.
[03:02]
Michael
I think you have one of the most open minded, yet sober views on the phenomenon in general. Which makes you one of my favorite kind of people to talk to. Because. Because of that open mindedness, you're always willing to entertain all kinds of things. But with the sobriety comes like, I don't really need to attach my opinion or my belief to any one of them. And that's like my favorite kind of conversation to have.
[03:25]
Chris
Same here. Same here.
[03:28]
Michael
Yeah, yeah. And I think the conversation is suffering right now because of that. It's like, I don't know if my conviction has gone up one way or the other or in any. It's probably not even one way or the other. It's probably like a 360 degree multi dimensional range of possibilities. But I would say one thing my conviction has gone up on a lot is there being some kind of like narrative manipulation involved as of late? Just because of all the like, weird noise and, and infighting and projection. It just seems, I feel more certain than ever that there are psyops afoot, let's just put it that way.
[04:10]
Chris
I mean, I wouldn't doubt it. I wouldn't doubt that they've, you know, I think they've always kind of been present to an extent. I don't know to what extent. That's always the question. And I don't know. You know, a lot of us might think it's the obvious stuff, like you'd mentioned the infighting or, you know, the back and forths in the community, but perhaps it's even more subtle than that and just algorithm manipulation and that type of thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you're getting fed a certain type of content and you're consuming it six to eight hours a day, that's bound to change how you feel about a certain topic eventually. I think. It wears you down and it brings you, and you know, you can, you can pick your side, but I mean, you can be easily swayed into either side of any spectrum if you're fed information in that way in a consistent manner. And so, yeah, I would, I would say the same, I would say definitely it is present. Maybe, maybe the overt stuff isn't at all what it is though. Like, maybe that's just human nature drama and bickering where people, you know, tend to thrive on, on other people's negative interactions for a varied amount of reasons. But maybe that isn't at all the psyop, you know, maybe it's the stuff that isn't so obvious that you think is uncorruptible. Your own mind, your own feed, your own day to day interactions. That is probably where most of it's
[05:47]
Michael
happening a thousand percent. And that may sound mundane in a way that's like, yeah, but that's boring. I want to talk about like, you know, people within the CIA sitting in a room, like crafting a narrative. And while, yeah, of course that is what a psyop can be, I think we do need to just pause and really ask ourselves if it's mundane at all. Because what you're saying essentially is that we live in a time now where informational ghosts that you don't physically ever interact with get smashed into your face over and over and over again on a daily basis to such an effective degree that you, you don't care about physical reality or not as much. Not as much. Right. Like, we definitely don't care about like what's going on in our local community, you know, you know, even whatever horrible things are going on across the world. It's so much easier to just let those things linger in the back of your mind where you never look, because oh man, this could. You see this dude flipped a watch for 2k in 30 seconds, man. Isn't that crazy? You know, and you can just spend your entire day on inconsequential brain rot that absolutely isolates you from everything, you know, and that's, that is not mundane, man. That is like clear, present. I don't know, brain abduction. In a way that doesn't sound as sexy as UFO abduction, but it's, it's as effective.
[07:25]
Chris
We, we are living in a 1980s sci fi novel currently. We just don't realize it because we're in it. But yeah, absolutely, that manipulation is definitely present. I think we all know that. And that's the funny thing about manipulation too, where it gets so good to a point where you go, yeah, but I don't care. You know, we're all kind of, I guess, sort of, I don't know, we just don't really care about that part of our brain so much. Not, you know, and I'm victim to it as well. I think we all are to an extent. But it's important to have a dichotomy and have that separation of reality and this avatar that we create online as well, because it is an avatar for all intents purposes, whether it's my channel or anybody else's social media feed, that is an avatar that isn't who you are. That is a representation of who you want people to see you as. And you try to keep it as much aligned with you as possible, ideally. But realistically speaking, it is a sort of perfect version of you that you'll never live up to. And that online avatar Persona that we are putting out there is becoming more and more prevalent and taking over our psyche more and more and becoming the thing that people interact with more and more versus the human being. And so we are interacting through these virtual avatars rather than face to face, which is why not to plug the tour. Which is why I do enjoy doing these live events, because you'll be joining me there as well, which is a whole lot of fun. But you get to see people without that filter of that anonymity that people hide behind these hidden agendas that we all have behind every post. And no, it's unfiltered. You get to look into someone's eyes and you get to feel the. Of course, the parasocial dynamic, but also the awkwardness that makes us human. These, These interactions that we will take for granted and we will miss as we move into a more virtual existence. More and more, I think these things are going to be just. We're going to crave them from a very primordial, you know, state. Like, we need these connections in order to be human, but we'll realize that perhaps, you know, when we're least human.
[10:00]
Michael
Yeah, that's one of the things I've been thinking about more and more, especially, you know, given the fact that I'm into a lot of these, you know, sort of ancient esoteric traditions and stuff like that. And you think about trying to.
[10:12]
Chris
How, how.
[10:13]
Michael
How do you really live these truths or ideas in this kind of a context? That. That's one of the main reasons. I don't think you can just say we got to go back to being hermeticists, we gotta go back to being Neoplatonist, is because it's like, yeah, there's a lot of truth in there, but we don't live in those times anymore. Like, there's gotta be some new growth or meeting in the middle. And I think that's one of those things that is under construction all the time and perhaps never will finish being constructed as badly as it needs to be. Because reality is, like, moving too quickly for anything now. It's moving too quickly for any one narrative. Any idea of what the phenomenon is, any idea of, like, what even reality itself is, is shifting under our feet all the time. And we need those moments that you're talking about, man, where you. Where you can just anchor yourself back, back in physical space with other human beings in the most pure kind of being, togetherness. I don't even know what I'm saying, but.
[11:17]
Chris
Well, no, I think we agree. I think we're talking about the same thing here. And there's a wonderful little line that I read the other day which was, no matter what you hear, if you hear all the overwhelming, stimulating sort of sounds and sights that the screens have to offer you, or when people come to you with their problems or whatnot. Just a simple phrase to ground you is, but did you hear the birds? But did you hear the birds today? And that just kind of brings you right back to, oh, yeah, I could just go outside and listen to birds for a second and stare at the trees for a minute. And that's always there as well. And so we often get caught up in these virtual realities, but there needs to be. As much as we try to live up to these fictitious avatar that we've created, there needs to be that separation. I think it's healthy to have that separation. And we don't need to remind those that are online to get offline. We just need to get offline ourselves and, you know, just start there.
[12:27]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, dude. And now that we've taken care of our mental health, let's destroy it.
[12:33]
Chris
Let's talk about.
[12:34]
Michael
Yeah, yeah. Well, well, I. Actually, the first thing that comes to mind again is the psyop stuff, because, like, I. Like we were joking around before, you know, I think most people think about it like that. Like, there are dudes just sitting around in a room and they're sculpting a narrative from front to back. And obviously it could be that, right? Like, there's not, like, there's no reason to say it can't be that. But the thing about it, I think that's so pernicious is that you don't actually have to create a narrative or even lie. You. You simply. Okay, let me. Let me reverse that. You do have to create a narrative, but you don't have to lie. Like, I could just tell you selected truths and omit whatever doesn't fit. And that in and of itself is. Is probably a more effective type of psyop than making some kind of elaborate lie. Because I can. I can show you the whole way. I can show you receipts. I can be like, this is true. Yeah, that's true. And this is true. And just through omission, like, I've created a very compelling, hard to dismiss narrative consisting of facts, you know, And I think something like that could very easily be going on at a. I don't buy that there is some, like, humongous psyop over the entire UFO conversation because it's just too out of control and multifaceted, and everybody's talking about it in their own way now. But what I do think is that it is one of the best piles for just, like, how do we push this idea? Like, well, you know, we could just, like, project that onto a UFO invasion. Like that That's a great scapegoat for almost anything you want to do, you know, mass surveillance or trying out new technology, like military technologies or flying a bunch of drones around. Right. Like, yeah, dude. So, so I don't, you know, it's. I guess I'm sort of like in this weird, as I normally am, fence straddling place where I think there has to be narrative manipulation, psyop disinformation, misinformation, willfully involved. But I don't believe that it could be, you know, controlling the whole conversation, like some puppet master thing.
[14:51]
Chris
Yeah. Like you said, I think a lot of it is, you know, I think of my channel as more than anything, probably aiding in that direction anyways. Like, and you know, people have definitely said it before, it's like, oh, this guy's a psyops. Like, maybe, maybe I am unwillingly. Do you know what I mean? I'm not blind to the idea that confusion is probably the best tactic of all.
[15:15]
Michael
Yeah.
[15:17]
Chris
And so if I present a story that is over here, this future AI alien presence, and then over here is a story of these benevolent, you know, blonde Nordic beings, and then over here is the tiny little Grays, and like, that creates confusion. That cluster is enough to really mess things up for anyone trying to look into this clearly. But at the same time, I have no choice because I want to present all the evidence given to me, which is why I feel it's so necessary to have that open mind into, not to have a mutable and sort of modular foundation when it comes to building on top of it, this, this narrative. Like, if you have a solid foundation and you, you know, I've built your entire ontology on top of this. And the way you see the world, of course, anything that tries to interfere with that or change that in the slightest way, especially the foundation, not what's built on top of it, that you can interchange. But if you start shaking the foundation. Yeah. People are going to get defensive, they're going to push back.
[16:33]
Michael
Right.
[16:33]
Chris
So it's the practice of having that gelatin sort of foundation that allows you to stack on top of it whatever you want and tear it down and it doesn't really matter. But that's something that not everybody has, that I've realized. It comes to me, it comes to you. And I think it comes to a lot of listeners really quite naturally. And that's why they engage with this topic in a healthy way. But there are those who can't simply because of the strong, really concretized foundation that they've built everything upon, allow themselves to just change it so easily. And that frustration becomes a part of, becomes, you know, to them, it just comes very naturally to them to want to defend something. And so they're usually the ones to go psyop because they can't cope with all the different variables, only a portion of variables that sort of exist to interchange, you know, whatever they've built on their foundation. But as soon as the variable interferes with the foundation, then they go psyop. That I can't, I can't handle that. And so, you know, the term psyop I think is thrown around far too easily. Secondly, you know, if you were a government entity and you were like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, hire these people, spread them out to disinfo the topic through these podcasts. First of all, this isn't the 80s anymore. If you did that as an intelligence agency nowadays I would just make my own intelligence agency that did it all virtually online with algorithm manipulation instead and just outbid you on every project. There's no way that what you're doing with people is going to be more effective than what some 20 year old can do with an AI clawed background. I mean, it's just unfathomable the amount of manipulation that you can have through people's screens. Like, I mean, if you don't like me, you can just turn off, you can just change the channel.
[18:45]
Michael
Yeah, right.
[18:45]
Chris
Then, oh, psyops over.
[18:48]
Michael
Unless it's a flood the zone type of psyop, you know, it's just like, no, no, the more the better. The more the better because when we have too much noise. Man, man. And this is, this is actually scary because this is a sort of macro manipulation of everything that we've been saying that I think we are starting to see, which is that when you do flood the zone and you have so many competing narratives, people want to retreat to like islands of coherence, right? So they will go back to nationalism, they will go back to organized religion, they'll go back to politics. And that's happening like, that's happening in such a scary, divisive way where we're going to be living in these weird, it's not even going to be just, you know, we hear about echo chambers and shit, but that's not even the, it's like weird informational reality fiefdoms, you know, it's like, it's like, oh, what sector do you live in? And you're going to be able, you can tell, right? You can tell. Oh, this guy lives in that mental sector. Like he lives in this reality tunnel. Do you know about reality tunnels?
[19:52]
Chris
I mean, I can, I can assume,
[19:54]
Michael
yeah, it's pretty much what it sounds like. But there's this author you would love named Robert Anton Wilson. One of my favorite books of all time called Cosmic Trigger. And he, he, I love him because he's one of these multi disciplinary weirdos where he was doing everything from experimenting with magical rituals and psychedelics and commute believing he was communicating with alien intelligences from Sirius. And he was studying like hardcore physics, psychology, all of the like bleeding edge quantum stuff. And he was stress testing his own experiences and putting agnosticism over the top of all of it, saying like, here's the strongest case for the, like that I literally was in contact with Sirius. I was having all these insane synchronicities. I met this person, this happened that, you know, I had a men in black encounter, whatever. And then he would just flip it and totally stress test it and take it apart and straw man it and steel man do everything. It's like. And he, he's just one of my favorite thinkers for that reason. He had this like mercurial trickster y approach to all of it. But, but that was his term, reality tunnels. This idea that everyone is living in their own weird, unique tunnel of reality and they think that it's real. They don't, they don't see it for the Plato's cave that it is. And if you can blow up someone's reality tunnel, it's simultaneously the most, you know, it's the best thing you can do for them, but also the worst
[21:20]
Chris
because it's freeing someone from the matrix.
[21:22]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, it's ontological shock. Right.
[21:27]
Chris
But again, the question also needs to become who are you to do that? Right. Like, what gives you the right to do that? Because those who practice Christianity also feel like they're throwing you a life vest when they're trying to get you to convert. So what gives you the right to want to create ontological shock for someone and not a Christian for wanting to convert someone? I don't agree with forceful disclosure. I just don't agree with it in general. I think disclosure should happen the way it's happening in a transitional way. We are all, you know, if you fast forward in time, this will be where disclosure happens. The trajectory towards disclosure is moving in that direction.
[22:28]
Michael
It's probably Chris Ramsey.
[22:33]
Chris
That's right. And if you want to come see Michael and I on tour, I will be hitting a few dates you can go to itsprobablynothing.com I am so excited to be hanging not only with one of my really good friends in this space, somebody who I enjoy talking with for hours and hours on end, but also hanging with a lot of you, the viewers who watch the show. I mean, it's just such an exciting thing to be a part of and I'm so glad to be able to invite Michael to experience it as well.
[23:02]
Michael
Yeah, likewise, man. It's going to be so fun not just to talk about some of my favorite subjects and hang with you and meet cool people, but also live some of my unrequited band touring days.
[23:14]
Chris
Yes.
[23:14]
Michael
I've always wanted to like get on the road more and like, do more, you know, like.
[23:17]
Chris
Yeah.
[23:18]
Michael
So it's just, it's just gonna be fun all the way around. Dude, I seriously can't wait.
[23:22]
Chris
So if you want to come see it, it's probably nothing. Dot com. The dates are. Well, the, the, the places are I think maybe not in order. Tucson, Louisiana, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver. And Michael will be joining me at San Francisco, Seattle, Portland.
[23:43]
Michael
Yep. And Vancouver.
[23:44]
Chris
And Vancouver.
[23:45]
Michael
Yeah.
[23:46]
Chris
So more than half the tour you're going to get your dose of third eye drops. If you're in, come see us, come check it out. It's a heck of a good time. We got a lot of surprises and special guests lined up as well. So look forward to doing it.
[24:00]
Michael
Me too, brother.
[24:01]
Chris
I just don't agree with it in general. I think disclosure should happen the way it's happening in a transitional way. We are all, you know, if you fast forward in time, this will be where disclosure happens. The trajectory towards disclosure is moving in that direction. Right. We're not, we're not stagnant. We're not moving backwards. We are moving into that direction. And partially due to the abundance of information, having information available to everyone at all times, we are gathering more information by the age of 10 than a hundred year old would have 100 years ago. And so by that standard, eventually you get to the bottom of the barrel of information. You start asking deeper questions at an earlier age. And so naturally the progression of humanity when faced with this informational archive, is to get to those questions quicker. And eventually we'll all be wondering, who's out there? Why are we here? And it isn't just stimulated by government action. It isn't just stimulated by researchers in the field. It is a deep necessity for humans to just want that answer because they've gotten to the end of everything else. They've seen past the algorithms and they're just like, yeah, but why are we here? And so we'll get there eventually. But I do think it is a transitional thing that happens generationally. I'm, I'm very resigned to not having any concrete confirmation in this lifetime. It's okay with me because I know that it will happen eventually. Like, we are moving towards that direction. I think the frustration a lot of people feel is it not happening in their lifetime. So it is a selfish request to want disclosure now, you know, because they've worked so hard their whole lives, they deserve it. But give it three, four generations and it'll just be regular chat. It won't be this speculative thing that we all sort of talk about. It'll just be like, yeah, okay, aliens are here. Like, I've, I've spoken about this recently too, and I thought it was an interesting thought exercise to be like, if you were, I don't know, communing with an entity who is the gatekeeping entity that has all of the answers that you seek and the answers to disclosure, to life, to whatever, right? And you can ask this entity to answer you truthfully and he'll answer you truthfully for one question. And the question becomes, are we or have we ever shared this planet with a non human sort of based intelligence of like an alien capacity? Yeah, exactly. And the entity, whatever this is, whether it's a person in the government or whatever, just says no, it's never happened.
[27:12]
Michael
Right.
[27:15]
Chris
I mean, instantly you go, I don't buy it. Right. Like us as researchers, we go, yeah, that you're lying right? Now, I've told you that this entity is going to give you the truth and you get to ask any question, and yet you're resigned to not believing that the answer is no. So let's take that a step further. If you're resigned to that, then just assume the answer is now and move on. You don't need that confirmation. We don't. We shouldn't beg for that confirmation. We shouldn't seek that confirmation. That should be the lesson that we all are trying to learn is that the pot of gold at the end of the rainbows is worthless. Like we're not, we shouldn't be seeking this validation, this permission to ask new questions. No, Assume you have the answer, then if you're resigned to the answer being we're not alone, then you might as well just assume that that's the answer if you're never going to accept it otherwise, and then just move on. That's Your disclosure. There you go. And ask the new question. Now, people get very frustrated about thinking, oh, I just want the answer. You, you need to understand you only want the answer because you want to be allowed to ask a new question.
[28:33]
Michael
Yeah. Or you only want the answer because you want to service your own preconceived notions about the truth. Sure.
[28:39]
Chris
But then what happens immediately after that? You don't hang the hat up and go, well, I'm good now. I'm going to retire on a beach. No, you go, well, what's the next question? Now that I have that answer.
[28:48]
Michael
Right.
[28:48]
Chris
And so just assume you have that answer. If you're resigned to having that answer be the answer you want it to be anyways, if there's no other way around it, if you're not going to accept the fact that we are alone, then you might as well just act as we're not and move on and ask those new questions. And I think, I think that that's like the lesson here throughout all of this is that we need to stop seeking this validation from a governmental body, from an entity, from our inner selves. Like, screw confirmation, screw all of that practice just not needing that and asking the questions anyways. And then it becomes stimulating, it becomes fulfilling, and it doesn't shift your ontology every five minutes when you hear something new. It becomes fun and enlightening. And I think that we just need to practice letting go of that. Like it's unhealthy because that, you know, all it does is it, it births frustration and, and this, this, these antagonizing sort of debates and, and everything else. Like, we could do away with all of that if we just. Yeah, if we just acknowledge that.
[29:58]
Michael
Okay.
[29:59]
Chris
Yeah, we're not alone. Now what. Yeah, what's the next question?
[30:01]
Michael
Yeah, well, first of all, I knew you were a, A gradualist, slow disclosure shill, Christopher. I just knew it. And you just confirmed it. For. No, I, I do agree to, to a degree. But to, to the degree that if you're going to make a statement like I so deeply believe that we're not alone, that even an answer from an almighty to the contrary would change my mind, I'm going to stick with that. If you don't at least consider. Well, if it's saying no, and this is supposed to be the fount of truth, I really better at least condition my, My really strongly held belief because I think, I think just cloistering, you're holding on to your belief so tightly that something is true is very dangerous. Like, it's very epistemologically dangerous because you're essentially then saying, I'm willing to believe in a lie for my own comfort. And I don't think that's what you're saying. But. But what I think should be done is, first of all, I agree, and I think that's a very reasonable belief to hold, based on mountains and mountains of common sense, personal experience, all kinds of evidence to say that we're not alone. But I also think that you should also have the epistemic humility to totally condition what that means. Like, it might not mean what I think it means. It might not fit into my beliefs, the rest of my belief system. And if you're not willing to stress test it in that way, you've got to be, I think, honest with yourself and say, maybe I'm not really looking for truth. Maybe I'm looking for validation. And I think all of us are to some degree. Right. I know that I am. But if you're really not willing to admit that at all, you're pro. Just like, you know, our friend Hakeem who says, like, if you don't think you're. And. And Chase you says this as well. If you don't think you're susceptible to a psyop, you're the most susceptible person to a psyop. Like, same with this. If you don't think your beliefs are subject to what Chris and I are saying. They absolutely are. They absolutely are. Like, if you don't have a worldview capable of holding, you know, tension with other possibilities. You fucked, guys. You're fucked. Like, you're. You're on one of these islands of coherence of, like, imaginary Disneyland thinking that. I'm sorry, it's like, it's. It's a way. It's more of a coping mis. A coping mechanism for reality than a way to. To get to truth, I think.
[32:30]
Chris
Yes, correct. And. And I guess all I'm trying to say is that, like, don't let the answer, yes, we're alone. I mean, we're not going to let it stop us from asking questions. Right?
[32:42]
Michael
Yeah.
[32:42]
Chris
Even if. Even if that is the truth.
[32:45]
Michael
Yeah.
[32:45]
Chris
It. It's still not going to stop you from posing these philosophical, you know, questions inside your mind and being like, oh, but is there anything else? Is there more? Is there, like, these questions still exist within us? And, like. All I'm saying is that you don't need permission to ask those questions, and you don't need validation to ask those questions. You don't need confirmation to ask those questions. Those questions exist freely. And look at every other thing in your life. Look at everybody who's ever attained any modicum of success or financial freedom or whatever. Like, what do they tell you when they get to the end? They tell you it's meaningless. You know, there's this guy on, on Instagram, he interviews like these like 90 year olds and he always asks them, like, what's, what's the one thing you would tell your younger self or the younger generation? And it's always, travel more, spend more time with your family, spend more time with your friends. Create memories, you know, don't take life for granted. Like it, it has nothing to do with all the things that we so desperately seek. Right. And we. There is that the idea that. Yes, but we have to go through it to learn it or whatever. But at least, at the very least, let's acknowledge that that is a truth here. That every validating piece of information that we seek at the end of our lives is going to be absolutely meaningless to us. Although we might feel differently right now, it will be. I promise you. You're going to be faced with mortality and you will say, who cares?
[34:19]
Michael
Yeah.
[34:19]
Chris
You know, like, it's the idea of trying to leave the body constantly, you know, and then you're like, well, what's the hurry? You're gonna leave the body? Like, if that is a thing, you're gonna leave it, you know?
[34:33]
Michael
Yeah.
[34:33]
Chris
You won't come back to the body. Maybe not this body or whatever. So, like, what's the hurry to enjoy the body? You know, enjoy swimming, eating, having sex, running, you know, exercise, do all, do all the things the body is here for. But like, yeah, not to get too preachy, but like, that's, that's what it comes down to when it comes, when I think of disclosure. And that's why I have a weird, frustrating relationship with the word, because it's always sprung upon me. And as I'm sure it is you, because it's the one question people formulate for whatever reason, they go, what's your take on disclosure? What do you think should happen with disclosure? And it's like, yeah, I don't want to be a nihilist here, but it really doesn't matter. Like, I mean, we're going to be fine. Yeah,
[35:25]
Michael
agreed. And I always, I always have further thoughts. You and I have gotten hung up on this before of like, you know, what is the point of like, let's say, going out of body? Like, what I don't want to. I don't want to rehab that conversation.
[35:37]
Chris
Sure.
[35:37]
Michael
What I, what I do want to rehab though, that I feel like you and I have had some version of on every episode we've done is like the lower conviction, higher conviction game. Because I feel like my answer lately has sort of changed or has sort of like evolved in a way. And I'm wondering if there's anything. Well, maybe we can, we could do both lower or higher conviction. And if anything jumps to mind, feel free to riff. And if, because I'm putting you on the spot, nothing's coming to mind, I can also riff. But is there anything that you've either recently like lowered or raised your conviction on as far as this conversation goes?
[36:17]
Chris
I think yeah, both. Both things I've.
[36:20]
Michael
I've.
[36:23]
Chris
It's really hard, it's really hard to say because most of what I deal with in terms of the people I interview deals with circumstantial sort of evidence that revolves around someone's experience.
[36:40]
Michael
Right.
[36:41]
Chris
And I can let that raise and lower my conviction to a certain extent, but I can't have it prove anything and I can't have it disprove anything. So it really is this sort of suspended state of like this medium lowering and raising of conviction case by case. I think overall I am slightly lower conviction that the government knows anything. I think, or at least the front facing government, I could say I'm rather much lower conviction that they're aware of anything at all. You know, if you look at the recent tranches. Stupid word, but you look at the recent tranches, that.
[37:35]
Michael
That's the psyop is to get us to all say Tron so someone can make money on Kelshi. Tron is going to go up in popularity.
[37:41]
Chris
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But there is, you know, when that, when that came out, they were like, yeah, that's the meat and potatoes. That's what Luna said. That's the meat and potatoes represented. Luna, she said that's the meat and potatoes for the last, you know, dishing out of videos and documents.
[37:58]
Michael
Wait, she said that, like everything that's been released is the meat and potatoes.
[38:02]
Chris
She said that? She said meat and potatoes. That's the meat and potatoes in an interview.
[38:08]
Michael
And I'm like, piece of cheesecake coming, dude.
[38:10]
Chris
And I'm like, that's it? That's what you were afraid to put out for fear of your life. It's ridiculous. Yeah, stupid. I'm sorry. This is not worth it. This is not worth my time. It's not worth anybody's time. We have better evidence Far better evidence, evidence in the last 80 years coming from the civilian side than you have with your military equipment. If that's, and if very big, if that's all the military's ever known about UFOs, then I'm high conviction that there's nothing happening. I don't believe that to be true. I do think that factions of, you know, the backwards facing military or, you know, the military industrial complex have information that is way, way more pertinent and, you know, relevant and groundbreaking than what we've seen in these tranches. But yeah, that as soon as I saw that I was like, oh, that's a joke that. I'm sorry, it's a joke. It's all of this and the science advisory board and all that bs. Like it makes no sense to me now where I'm like, oh, this is a dog and pony show. This is not, this has nothing to do with anything. And some people might think it's a psyop. I genuinely don't. I genuinely think these are curious people who think they are doing good. I just don't think these people are well informed in terms of historically what's happened in different countries in the United States, everywhere around the world. There's these earth shattering cases with witnesses. But what they're looking at is sort of deconstructing FLIR footage of something and you're like, oh, you guys are looking at the wrong thing and you're hyping each other up and it really doesn't matter what you think at this point because. And again it brings me back to let's not hinge anything on what we're seeing, you know, and go your own way and do your own research when it comes to this stuff, because it's just going to be disappointment after disappointment. Sure. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. There might be something that comes out of the woodwork that'll shock us all. And I'm hoping for that. And I know they probably are too, but I wouldn't say that the government, meaning the UAP crew is going to bring anything of interest forward that is. So I'm much lower conviction on that stuff than I was.
[40:45]
Michael
Yeah. So do you include in that the things that are more shadowy? Like, do you include, you know, to an extent, the put offs and the Davises and the legacy program people and the defense contractors. Is your, is your conviction going down on that whole kind of like legacy program, you know, construct narrative? Because you, you say. Because you could say that's the closest thing to a sanctioned narrative that's out there, right? Yeah, like there is a sanctioned narrative.
[41:20]
Chris
Yes.
[41:20]
Michael
But, but even within that, man, there's such weird disagreeance. Like there's such weird, you know.
[41:27]
Chris
Yeah.
[41:28]
Michael
Differences of opinion on like everything from we have fully back engineered stuff to. No, no, we never got far with it at all. And there's like, you know, there's, there's. Yeah, but, but I have to agree, man. It's like, you know, I made a statement in the, you know, you know, I've been working on this big thesis video and it's all like shot and I'm just working on the, you know, putting the bells and whistles on it at this point. And at a certain point I'm like, you know, I'm putting myself in kind of a weird position with this video because this is probably the closest thing I'm going to make to a thesis statement on what I think is going on. And I could very quickly be proven wrong with a, like a, one of these tranches. Right. Like something could come out that totally is like, yes, we are in contact with an alien species from this specific planet and they are this. And here's the evidence. And you know, that I'm not, I'm not precluding that possibility from my thesis of course, but I am very much diminishing that in favor of other, other ways of thinking about the phenomenon that are, that are like less physical, more mental, more higher dimensional, etc. And I said in the video, like I could be putting myself, I could just be. By the time I hit publish on this, I could be proven wrong.
[42:40]
Chris
Yeah.
[42:40]
Michael
And, and, and I, and I. That still could be the case. Right? Especially because it's like I feel like, oh yeah, I'll have it out next week and then it's like a month later and I'm still fucking working on it. But, but with every passing day, bro, I feel a lot safer in that statement. You know, I feel a lot safer in the idea that that will not be released and that even if it is released, it will be questionable and lackluster. And you know, I don't know man. It's funny because now this, now this just sent my brain down this like very rapid fire vision of even if something like disclosure day, like the, the, you know, the ultimate reveal, even if that happened, bro, would we, would we believe it?
[43:24]
Chris
Of course not. I mean like there's a huge part of the population that would. And then the other part of the population would make fun of the ones that do believe it. And they would make memes about how mushy brained you are believing what the government said. And like, it would just be more news cycle junk. Yeah, that's all it would be. And then in a week or two after that, we'd be right back to where we were. Like, that's how the news cycle works today. And you could be shown anything. It doesn't matter anymore. And maybe that's the whole point of it. Maybe the point was to get to that point where you could be shown a literal live alien with its heart beating or whatever and you would still be like, yeah, and maybe that's the whole point. Maybe that's the point of everything. To get to that point where just no one believes it and it's out in the open, it's walking around, there's an alien. Look, it's in Times Square. Wow, that's crazy, huh? You know, some people say it's a real alien. Shut up, dude. That's crazy though. And like, yeah, maybe that's the whole point. I don't know.
[44:29]
Michael
Friends, I have been cooking up the goods over in the members section on YouTube and at patreon.com forward/third eyedrops. What are said goods? And was cooking really the best verb you could summon on this occasion? Well, to the former question, said goods are weekly, at least roughly exclusive content that you are never going to see here on the main feed with some of your favorite guests. By the way, case in point, I am slowly working on a doc that I shot at Contact in the Desert this year with a number of your favorite beings on the topic of UFOs and consciousness. And I will be releasing the full unedited conversations with all of those people only on the members channel and on Patreon. If you do join up over at patreon.com forward/third eyedrops, you will get access to all of those exclusive videos, plus a patron only discord and occasional live hangs and more. And yes, of course the doc will be coming out on the main feed. If I didn't make that clear. So much love for watching my friends while I have you tickle that algorithm. Like, subscribe, review if you are listening on Spotify.
[45:38]
Chris
Maybe that's the point of everything, to get to that point where just no one believes it and it's out in the open, it's walking around. There's an alien. Look, it's in Times Square. Wow, that's crazy, huh? You know, some people say it's a real alien. Shut up, dude. That's crazy though. And like, yeah, maybe that's the whole point. I don't know.
[45:58]
Michael
Yeah, dude. Yeah, it's. And, and another way to say that exact same thing is if you can't get someone to believe something like that, you can get them to believe to, to not believe anything. And that in a way is control. That is controlling an uncontrollable narrative. Because what you're doing is instead of trying to sculpt a narrative to get people to believe X, all you have to do is fuck up the narrative so much that no one believes anything.
[46:24]
Chris
Right.
[46:24]
Michael
And then if no one believes anything with enough conviction to do much about it, in a sense, you've won. Right. Because now, now, now you can do anything and no one will really bat an eyelash at it. It's just kind of like apathy is
[46:37]
Chris
at an all time high. Like, I mean, there's just less and less people care about anything. There are more and more causes to care for which dilutes your amount of caring that you can have for each cause.
[46:51]
Michael
Yeah.
[46:51]
Chris
You know, it's just the way it is.
[46:54]
Michael
Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. And, and I think that that again just flips the conversation right back into do not pin your sense making and all of your, you know, beliefs on external narrative stuff, particularly coming from, from these kinds of sources. Okay, so, so you have lowered your conviction on this, that aspect of the narrative at least. But you said both. So what do you feel like you've raised conviction levels on?
[47:26]
Chris
You know, the more I hear people, sure. There's a lot of people out there that reach out, whether it's through the phone calls, through interviews or through emails or whatnot. And they all have the missing piece of the puzzle, right? They all, I've got it here. It is undeniable proof. And they just send me like a photo or something. And it's, you know, it is what you think it is and it's. I do receive a lot of that. I'm sure you do as well, to a certain extent. But when you speak to people in person, people who have never come forward, people who never want to come forward, and they just want to share and impart with you an experience that they've had that has changed their life, undoubtedly changed their life. And when you hear those stories and they start, there is a pattern. And this person, I'm not a doctor, does not seem schizophrenic, out of their mind, having some psychosis. They're giving you just a small piece of, hey, this happened. I'd really appreciate if you didn't share my name or anything, but I wanted to let you know that I also was at a supermarket and somebody talked to me in my head. And it's only happened once in my life, and I didn't know what to make of that. And no one else could see them. I thought it was crazy, but I just wanted to let you know that that happened to me. And please don't divulge this information to anyone. So many times, so many. And you wonder. So that I think I'm. Higher conviction that there is a phenomenon that is interacting with a select few people for whatever reason, whether it's by accident or whether it's by design. Yeah. Around the world, I think that that is happening. Otherwise the other side of that would have to be. I've encountered dozens of pathological liars, slash people who don't know they are being absolutely manipulated. Slash people who are hallucinating or on drugs or have some type of mental instability that allows them to see a human being or something and speak to them in their mind once in their life, but never again. Like, those are the other options. And so when I weigh all those together, I feel like, man, could this be. And my conviction gets raised a little more with every encounter that I have. Yeah, I would say on those encounters.
[50:11]
Michael
Yeah, that makes sense. And I mean, we know for a fact that these are things that are happening. But the thing that's so. And I'm in the same camp, essentially, is that I think your own ability to tap into whatever this is is very real. I haven't had an experience exactly like that where. Especially on the natch, where I was just suddenly, like, I've tapped into feeling like I'm channeling some other consciousness. But it seems like it would be a foolish thing to say that no one's really having that experience, because a lot of people are. Now, what that means is also like a huge debate, right? Like, are they legitimately in contact with what they think? And is it part of their subconscious? Is it a. Is it another being, but another being that's representing itself faithfully or uncontrollable system? Is it a. Is it a psychotronic weapon that's being experimented on? You Is it a. It's just. Is it a psychical faculty where, yeah, you tapped into something, but it's like you basically just chapped and tapped into like a. A psychic radio channel. And it's not. It's not literally even true. It might just be like the chattering of the collective consciousness. Like there's just so many possibilities with that. But I would totally agree with you that my, my conviction is very high on the idea that we cite. We, we possess the, the ability psychically to tap into non physical sources of information. I think that that's like a very strong conviction on that.
[51:38]
Chris
Yeah. For me, I just think that's the nature of reality. Like that's part of like my world.
[51:43]
Michael
Yeah.
[51:44]
Chris
Building in my own sort of how I see ontology and like it. It is just that that's how information works. You know, I had Dr. Julia Mossbridge on recently.
[51:54]
Michael
Oh, awesome. Yeah, yeah.
[51:55]
Chris
And I was able to talk to her great lengths about that, about this non local omnipresent cloud of information that exists everywhere. And information can latch onto light and it can travel on light, but it doesn't need to. And like, but it's always there. Like everyone has access to it. You want to call it the Akashic records, you want to call it the field, whatever, but it's always there. And we do act as these nodes, these tiny antennas that seem to not only be able to download information, but to upload information as well. Like there is a two way dialogue between us and this cloud of information and the mind, which is essentially the thing that lives between the brain and that cloud of information, is able to travel in time, is able to go forward, to go backwards. And it's not beholden to the things that we are physically. And so I also think that that is a healthy way to view the world and to make sense of the world. I'm happy to have that all be proven wrong, but it does seem sensible. So, so for me it's not even like about a high conviction. It means for me it's like that's, that's kind of the baseline that I have. If I were to, you know, go all in on something, I think that that would be it. I think that, I think it's pretty reasonable.
[53:15]
Michael
Yeah, I do too. And there's emerging science to, to, to back this idea up. Like I'm not going to, I'm literally. I just made this joke on another podcast, but I'll make it again is it probably just sounds like I'm being literally paid by Don Hoffman personally to just glaze him on every fucking episode of the podcast. But the work that he's doing with Trace Institute, which is his new venture, that's sort of the overarching organized version of his philosophy. And then these like collaborators that are, that are starting to come into this just to speed run this really Quick, he's an idealist philosopher who essentially believes what, what you're saying. And he's, he's proving this through like hardcore cognitive science and theory that reality, like the, the foundational substrate of reality is consciousness and that physical reality is essentially like an evolutionarily convenient desktop or, or VR headset that we wear to survive, but it does not actually represent reality in any fidelity. It just represents our ability to survive and, and navigate this, this realm. And, but he has a peer reviewed paper now that has taken his theory and derived space time from it like using actual math. And he believes he will be able to derive quantum stuff and literally all, like all of extant physics, not from material assumptions, but from assuming that consciousness is primary and these things that he calls conscious agents are primary. And what's also interesting is this fits very well into a type of disclosure conversation because what he's saying is beyond this veneer, beyond this, you know, realm that we interact with is actually a whole other realm of conscious agents, as he calls them. And he, he keeps that very technical, like, doesn't get into like, yeah, these could be aliens, these could be entities, these could be angels, whatever. But the very recent development is he has publicly done a talk with Dr. Andrew Gallimore now the DMT guy, and has said, yeah, like, I think DMT entities probably are an example of this realm of conscious agents. So I think, I mean, yes, I'm cherry picking here, but, but I think the idea that you could easily be proven wrong on that idea is like becoming a harder and harder because I think it's very plausible and I think that there's going to be, and equally, you know, we might be headed for the same thing I was describing before, where everyone's living in these informational fiefdoms, materialism and idealism might turn out as those kinds of things where there's a very, very good argument to be made for, for both. But I don't know, man. I think, I think the idea of what you just said, the idea that there is some kind of baseline level of reality and connectivity that is comprised of consciousness that we, that we're participating in, but we're to an extent blind to, or we only function with, on an unseen or vestigial or some, some kind of latent level, I think that that is going to sound more and more and more likely with each passing decade, man. I really do.
[56:37]
Chris
Definitely. You know, the sort of visual analogy that I have of all of this is this kind of helps my brain make sense of it. But there Is this, let's say, substrate of reality, zero point, or the quantum field or whatever, this substrate that everything is built upon. Okay. This is like level one and level two. Now, we have these physical properties that arise from this. And. And what I see sort of materialist scientists trying to do is take the substrate, level one, and package it into level two.
[57:19]
Michael
Yeah, right. Exactly.
[57:20]
Chris
And you go, that's insane.
[57:22]
Michael
Yeah.
[57:23]
Chris
And. Sure. Yeah. At some times, the math will. Math. And it'll be doing its thing, and you'll be like, oh, yeah, it comes to zero. I'm right.
[57:31]
Michael
Yeah.
[57:31]
Chris
But then there's this whole other side that makes no sense. And there's no unifying law. There's like. It's just. We call it spooky. There's like. There's. There's nothing. Right. And that's because you're taking this thing that cannot be defined by physical means, and you're trying to fit it into this physical world and be like, here's what it's made of.
[57:52]
Michael
Yeah.
[57:52]
Chris
By using physical analogies. And you're like, that's like somebody who's. Who's like. Who says they've figured out music. And they give you a bunch of numbers, and they're like, I understand music. This is music. We've understood it. And you're like, what are you talking about? You haven't heard it. And they're like, you don't need to hear it. Look, it's like bars here. And you got this. There's 64 things and the frets and the. And you're like, yeah, but that's not music. And they're like, what do you mean, it's not music? Mass equals zero, you know, and you're like, no, but it gives you goosebumps. It, like, transports you emotionally. It. You know. And you could never explain that to a mathematician who's never heard music.
[58:33]
Michael
Right.
[58:34]
Chris
And yet.
[58:35]
Michael
Nor could you reduce it to physicality, to your.
[58:37]
Chris
Exactly. And you're trying to just, like, cram it in and. So that you can sleep well at night. And it's. Eventually, I think we're just. We're at that point now where we're all realizing. We're like, well, we've had this exponential curve, and now it's just kind of stopped. What's halting progression in terms of physics? And it is there. There's the stopping point. We all recognize that quantum physics is that point of like. Well, we got to acknowledge the elephant in the room now.
[59:09]
Michael
Yeah.
[59:10]
Chris
This is the problem.
[59:11]
Michael
Yes, dude. There's actually A clip of Jim Semivan that's been going around for a long time where he says, you know, whatever the phenomenon is, it probably sits in a Venn diagram of consciousness and quantum physics, which are the two things we know the least about.
[59:27]
Chris
Yeah.
[59:27]
Michael
And I'm just like, yeah, I mean, yeah, Jim Semivan, sure. Take, take like, question that as a source if you want. I would love to talk to the dude. He seems to have a lot of similar thoughts to me. But yeah, as soon as I heard that, that, that perked up my ears. And it's also incredible because Don Hoffman is starting to more openly talk about these more, you know, traditionally fringe ideas. And, and we were kind of in real time working through the idea of, okay, like, if there really were technologies that could do these things, would this theory explain it? And he's like, yeah, 100 would. And, and I think that that thing that all of us see, you know, this. And again, choose, choose how much conviction you want to put in any one story or any one theory. But a very common part of UFO lore is that there's some weird connection between technology, the phenomenon and consciousness that we don't understand. You know, all the way on up to like these things, these craft are like extensions of consciousness or are completely controlled by consciousness. You know, that's a trope that comes up over and over again and makes no sense from our current pov. But now if you do have a pov, like what Don is talking about, where you're assuming like you're from, from ground level, level one, you're not, you're not only assuming that consciousness is the base level of reality. You actually have that worked out in a technical theory. So you could start from consciousness being involved from square one. And what kinds of technology would that produce? It would be magic. It literally is magic, you know, like, so I think, I think there could be some, some interesting connections there that are totally high level and theoretical, at least in my stupid brain. But it makes, it does make a lot of sense, at least.
[61:15]
Chris
Yeah. But again, we could just assume that is reality and keep asking these stimulating and amazing questions that spark awesome discussion, you know, or we could get frustrated that no one's confirming what we're saying, you know.
[61:31]
Michael
Yes, yes. So one thing that my conviction level has gone up on that I think actually fits into where this conversation is, you know, bumbling into, is the idea that reality has built in intelligence tests. And it's, it's sort of similar to the idea in UFO lore of, you know, the, the donations, where it's kind of like they like, like the notion that we didn't crash this thing on accident. Here you go. You take it now and see what you can figure out. And then again the lore is that we, we make iterative, slow, incremental, technological and maybe even ontological, like new, new levels of understanding from these, from these donations. But I was having a conversation recently with Danny Goler, you know, the guy who, the, the DMT laser guy. And also same conversation with Andrew Gallimore and this idea keeps coming up over and over again that there seemed to be built in kind of intelligence Rubik's Cube level tests with all of these things. Like, like Gallimore was arguing that dmt, he believes is an intelligence test because with each new level there's like a new question. And then once you solve that question, it, it literally brings human consciousness to a new level that it could not reach before. Right. So if you can put it into a smokable form. Oh, now you, now you gained a level, put it into a. You know, I feel like all these keywords are going to get me like, like, like shadow bad. But, but it's like, you know, now we're to this point where you can reliably do it through intravenous indefinite, you know, like being in this realm. And, and now, dude, the types of experiences that people are talking about having in extended state is so mind boggling and insane, but it's real. And what is that? You know, and you've, there have even been stories. One of the stories that came out of that initial pilot study at, at Imperial College in London is they actually got advice or no, maybe this came out of. No, this came out of Strassman's spirit molecule studies, the old ones, where they, they basically told him how to improve the protocol, like to do it better. Like the entities told them how to improve the protocol to like make it work better. You know that, that kind of stuff is very interesting. So. Yeah, but broadly this idea that there are intelligence tests purposefully I don't think we need to put it as in cartoonish of a way as like there is one alien guy who put the like intelligence test. There's. But I think reality is constructed intentionally of, in that way of hidden and deeper levels of meaning that can be decoded all the way down to like maybe a literal code level that we will stumble across and be like, wow. Not only is consciousness fundamental, but we see these layers of understanding and encoding throughout every layer of reality. Like my conviction as recently I would say gone up on that.
[64:42]
Chris
There's the idea as well of dreams themselves being those tests, right. No matter how strange a dream is, it seems like there's always a decision to be made or you act a certain way in response to something. If you're feeling frustrated because of an interaction you had recently, you might dream of that interaction and it might raise that frustration even more in the dream and you'll just lash out. Maybe that's the test. Maybe it's like, let's see if you've learned your lesson. And do you go the other way? Do you help this person in the dream or do you beat them up? Do you, you know, no matter how strange the scenario is, maybe these are, you know, morality tests that you're put through in these, in these, in these states. And that's why your mind's sort of creating this reality for you to run you through another simulation. And I like to think of it that way. And I, I go into dreaming nowadays with that in mind and hoping, you know, to correct some of the outcomes that I may otherwise have moved negatively towards based on like an emotion that I had. And I think, oh, well, maybe that maybe I can, you know, fix this scenario in my dream. Speaking to Dr. Mossbridge once again, you know, she had talked about the very therapeutic sort of practice that she's been spearheading with one of her organizations, which is helping people who've had trauma through this idea of mental time travel. And so you are dealing with perhaps some post traumatic stress from an event. And let's take you back to that time through hypnotic regression and let's go to that event. And first, the way that she has it was really interesting because she wrote a whole dissertation on psychological time travel or psychological time and how it, you know, differs from objective time. And so going back, seeing yourself live through this trauma, maybe tell yourself what you need to hear in that moment of that will help you sort of persevere and get through this trauma and then do it again. But this time be the person in the moment of trauma and seeing yourself talk you down and give you that advice and sort of live both of those. And they've seen a great, great, like clear improvement of people's mental health in regards to those traumas after doing this practice. And so this is something that she's working on, I think is just phenomenal. She obviously, you know, she has a different worldview where yes, informational substrate exists maybe omnipresently, but beyond that is love. She, that's her sort of field is, is, is Love encapsulates everything. Everything. Love creates consciousness, and then consciousness creates physicality and whatever. But love is like this. The substrate, the binding glue that holds everything together, dude. And she's done an immense amount of research in regards to people in a state of what she puts it as unconditional love, how it enhances the psychic ability. And she's done papers on this. She's done studies on this, hard science on this, where objectively you get better results if you're in a state of unconditional love versus if you're not. And so it actually increases. And so then it was really interesting because I was asking her, well, you can have it both ways, right? We have this spectrum of, like, oh, it's love that improves the cognitive sort of psi ability. But then on the other hand, we have, like, trauma, right? This trauma, this evil, like, prodding and poking. We hear Jordan Jozik, we hear all these terrible things, but then what is actually happening there is dissociation. The dissociation from the trauma is creating the psychic event, not the trauma itself. It's the getting away from the trauma. So it's healing. It's love. And so a very interesting conversation sort of arose from talking about psychological time, how to fix yourself in the past, and then this sort of loving intention, you know, increasing psychic capability.
[69:42]
Michael
Yeah, that's super fascinating. And. And I think that. That any kind of, like, hypnosis stuff where you're playing with the elasticity and mutability of experience, that. That's crazy. And it's exciting, but also terrifying, bro, because it calls into question so many things about, like, you know, are people really remembering real memories during hypnotic regression? And also much darker stuff about.
[70:10]
Chris
Sure.
[70:10]
Michael
How much can you program a person's reality and identity? And you could do that for positive or for negative.
[70:16]
Chris
Sure.
[70:16]
Michael
And then. And I mean, I feel like that that must be the case, but also
[70:20]
Chris
just fun to have it as a tool to help people who, you know, have trauma. Because regardless of what happened objectively, if you can convince your mind that it happened otherwise, then that's all that really matters, Right. It's this, this. This positive delusion that will essentially dissipate the amount of stress that you have, Right?
[70:42]
Michael
Yeah, if that's your goal, for sure, it seems to almost work on a similar mechanism to, like, a psychedelic experience or something. How people who have been traumatized can somehow gain, like, new perspective on it. Maybe it's. Maybe it's not the exact same thing, but. But similar. Did you specifically bring that up with her? By the way, with her kind of experience and scientific pedigree, did you specifically bring up any of these, like, GATE program manipulation stories?
[71:10]
Chris
She was a part of GATE program.
[71:12]
Michael
Like, in that capacity? Like in the.
[71:14]
Chris
Yeah, she was a part of. She was part of something called SOAR S O A R. Okay, forget what it stands for, but it's like a student of academic research or something. And it was this program that she was a part of where she was given an opaque pink liquid to drink, not to spit out. And she has memory lapses. Her father worked at the Department of Energy. She was. Yeah, it gets really weird.
[71:45]
Michael
No idea.
[71:46]
Chris
Oh, she only found this out recently. She put out a book called have a Nice Disclosure, and it was in there through. Because she was, I think, working with one of the intelligence agencies or something in some type of, like, official capacity. Nothing weird and nefarious, but she had to have, like, a background academic check. And then she took it very seriously. So she went and demanded her records from, like, kindergarten, grade one, grade two, and then found out that her. From grade one to grade seven, her evaluations were redacted.
[72:30]
Michael
Wow.
[72:30]
Chris
And she's like, huh? What do you mean? And she. FOIA requested and. And then she was waiting on this job, and the job's like, yeah, we don't know yet. We're kind of unsure. And the FOIA request was like, are you sure you want to pursue this? I'd need to know exact names of this and that. So she decided to drop it. Three minutes after dropping the FOIA request, she gets a phone call being approved to this program. And, like, it's. It's a very strange series of synchronous coincidences, but nonetheless, you know, she has these very strange memories. She even had a dream the night before we podcasted where she was in a room with this gentleman who she hasn't thought about since grade five or whatever, who was, like, this man in a suit telling her to leave her body and to, like, go out of body and into this tower and whatever. And, like, I was like, what?
[73:24]
Michael
What?
[73:25]
Chris
Yeah, it was insane.
[73:26]
Michael
But, God, dude.
[73:27]
Chris
Yeah. So she's definitely been part of, you know, one of these types of educational programs that they've had for children. Yeah.
[73:38]
Michael
Holy. So. So when I initially asked that, I. I meant in, like, a professional capacity. Like, had she been. Because she studied all of this size stuff, so it would stand to reason that if somebody was doing that, like, maybe she would be involved. And obviously, you can't talk about this stuff without it sounding like super nefarious. And dark, like experimenting. Doing psychical experiments on children and whatever. But, like, yeah, I didn't, I didn't expect you to say that. She, as a child was potentially involved in this stuff, but it actually kind of makes more sense, I feel like the further you go back, because we know for a fact that Stargate was going on. We know for a fact. Did I tell you that? Oh, yeah, I did tell you this, but like, when I had Greg Melosi on, I was not aware that there is an actual paper trail connecting SRI and. And Put off and Targ to Puharic and physically being at his east coast.
[74:33]
Chris
Right, yeah. And there's like, footage there as well.
[74:35]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the footage that I. That, yeah, that, that I've actually seen.
[74:39]
Chris
Well, there's footage of Hal put off and Russell Togg at Lab 9 in Ossining during these exact years. There's literally footage of them there. They're sitting on the front steps.
[74:49]
Michael
They're.
[74:49]
Chris
They're in the house. I mean, they were there for sure.
[74:52]
Michael
Wow.
[74:53]
Chris
So I can't remember who told me, but somebody, you know, very reliable was like, yeah, the whole Lab 9 thing was just like a cutout for those
[75:01]
Michael
programs because they could more easily work
[75:04]
Chris
with young people there than they could
[75:05]
Michael
in a more serious environment again. So we know then that there were tendrils reaching out in other directions. Right? Like, like, obviously any. You and I, every person talking about this, the idea that it was fully contained to this, like what we know about Project Stargate, and then it just ended with that, like, impossible to believe. But then you also start to like, just journalists like Greg, like, just digging up documents, like, finding stuff, you know, that, that nobody thought to. Like, yeah, maybe we better go through all these archives and see if there's like, stuff we don't want out there. Like, like, I put that in my teaser to him with, with him, I'm like, so do you think you're sitting on classified stuff? And he's like, yeah. And then we both just laugh because it's just like. But, But I can also kind of see why bother, right? Because with Puharic is almost like a human locus of all this that we're talking about, where he's a very smart guy, you know, went to an elite medical school, was in all of these elite circles and stuff like that. But then you hear all of the breadth of stuff that he talks about and you're like, it can't all be true. So then you're like, but how much of it is true?
[76:20]
Chris
What I'm really saying is that all of that is fiction. Like the Men in Black as a single example, that's all done by the CIA. They're trying to scare people away from recognizing UFOs. I don't know whether you're aware of that. 90% of the UFO sightings are the United States flying saucer fleet. They have a huge fleet. It's our primary line of defense. So they mutilate the cattle, they do all these horrible stories. Half of the abductions, I mean, it's all staged in the show business. It's not real. You have to be very smart to detect that. You have to remember that every government in the world is afraid that people will believe that there's something out there. Okay, and what are they? Why are they afraid the stock market is going to crash? Billions that have been invested, new product, they're not going to be carried out because it's all been done already. And on and on it goes. So we're dealing with a vast disinformation process here.
[77:16]
Michael
And how much of it was total New age fantasy co opting? Did he go crazy at a certain point? Did he go off the deep end at a certain point? Was he himself involved in super malevolent shit? And then it seems like he may have turned a corner at one point.
[77:31]
Chris
Most people around that age, I feel like that's the case. You look at Joe McMonagle, you know, you say, is everything he says? Is that the way it is? You know, and yeah, people of that era who were involved in these programs. You had John Alexander, you ever hear him talk? You know.
[77:49]
Michael
Well, I know he was just on the that why Files podcast.
[77:52]
Chris
Yeah.
[77:52]
Michael
Watch it? Did you watch it?
[77:53]
Chris
I watched like the first part of it and it was, it was pretty hard to get through because he was like, yeah, I feel like he was being purposely evasive, but I, maybe I got to give it another shot and watch the rest of it. But regardless, I think that whole generation, because information was much easier to, to be misleading and to be, yeah, you didn't have the access to information like we do today. And so it would be really hard to prove. So you would have to take people's word for it a lot. And the rank you had or the pedigree that you had academically determined how much your word was worth. And that kind of helped spread potentially a lot of misinformation back then because again, you didn't have the capacity to double check it and you couldn't publicly ask anybody about it. And so you would have to just listen to these whispers and take it from this colonel or this doctor that what they're saying is true. And I think because of that you get a lot of misinfo and a lot of like, which is why, you know, sunlight is the best way to sanitize anything. It's just like, let's get it all out there, let's declassify it all and go through it. Yeah. And if it was complete BS and bogus bullshit, then at least we'll know. But you know, classifying it further, only further creates speculation.
[79:23]
Michael
Yeah, and just to give the quick, you know, high level background, if people don't know this Andrea Puharic or Puharich character, he is pre Project Stargate. So pre. All of the stuff that we know about having to do with remote viewing and you know, that eventually going over to the army with people like Joe McMonagle, Paul Smith, etc. Etc. There was absolutely zero doubt. A lot of similar things going on in, in way more on, I don't want to say unsanctioned, but like hard to tell how official or how much. It's like a loose cannon. Scientists just doing a bunch of crazy science psychical experiments. So, so the kind of stuff this guy was doing, it's hard to even know where to start. But he was channeling what he thought were alien intelligences called the Nine. And he was using specific, you know, psychics that, that could get into this state to channel these beings. So there's, there's a whole number of them. Then eventually he moves on to this group of young people called the space kids, which is a little bit of a misnomer because I think they were actually adults, but they were like very young adults, you know, like 19, 20 age adults. And they're like living on his property doing psychical experiments all the time. So they're going in like Faraday chambers, they're channeling these beings called the Nine. They're, they're, they're trying to literally make you UFOs show up at various points. They're doing all kinds of stuff.
[81:02]
Chris
Maybe this bigger phenomena is that these kids are getting this power through some other intelligence. And there's tons of sessions of him like regressing in a sense these, these space kids and seeing if there's some connection there to, you know, another civilization. And according to him, there is. These kids would remember a past life of being on another planet, being in another part of another civilization.
[81:32]
Michael
One of the things that's very interesting that comes out of this Is not only like I said, you get, oh. And when I said there's a paper trail, he found an actual invoice. So it was like, like money going back and forth. Like SRI paying puharik for something in that, in that era, in that like I think early 70s era. So that's one thing. But the other thing that's very interesting is this completely changes the history of remote viewing, dude. Because right now the narrative of it's invented at SRI by Ingo Swan. And then they perfect that they were doing it, dude. They were literally doing things like we need funding to continue these experiments and we're meeting with General Blah Blah Blah tomorrow. Access General Blah Blah Blah's mind, find out where he is, figure out how we can like tell him exactly what he wants to hear to give us more money. And they're doing this on all on like more you know, espionage levels as well, like spying on foreign governments. Do it like dude, it is a crazy deep rabbit hole. And that's something I want to get more into with Greg. Next time I want to talk, that's next time I talk to him. Because like I feel like we glossed over that fact like that astonishment astounding fact that like no remote viewing obviously it goes back to like thousands of years if you just take it at its, you know, most high level, like non locally projecting your consciousness other places to get information. But in the US government it goes back further than, than the beginnings of Project Stargate for sure.
[83:02]
Chris
Yep. Yeah, it's fascinating stuff. And you know, it's, it's, it's, it's fun too because the reason it's so shrouded and well hidden is due to the fact that it isn't accurate. It's, it's, it's not reliable. It can be accurate, but it's not reliable. It's this sort of like, oh, a hit is, you know, is a confirm, a good confirmation. But like, because it's in this weird state of like, I can't hang my hat on anything a remote viewer tells me allows it to be shrouded more, allows it to be hidden because people, it's so easy to dismiss. But then when you do see something that's like really striking, like really accurate, you go, there's no way that you could have this information without knowing the target. And so it's a perfect little spy tool really.
[84:02]
Michael
Yeah, and I think you're totally right. I think it is both. I was gonna say 100 real. I won't say 100 real. I think it is extraordinarily high conviction, real.
[84:11]
Chris
I think it's being utilized 100. Whether it's real or not.
[84:15]
Michael
Yeah, and the second thing I was gonna say is it is very not. It is very unreliable. It's both. It's both real and it's. And unreliable. So it's. It's one of those things where. Because you just can't. I think the best that you can hope to do is find these extreme outlier individuals and just like, work them as much as possible to raise your statistical likelihood of. Of things. But even still doing that, like, let's say a McMonagle or like there's one particular. There's a story about. There's like this one particular quote, unquote, space kid who was by far the best, and she was traveling with Puharic and like, he was utilizing her abilities way more than everyone else's. Think her name's like, Sharon or something weird like that. I don't know if it's just Sharon and he just said it weird. But he's been trying to track her down for. For a long, long time. And I think he's been. Yeah. And she has. It's really interesting because he did. So he's got this documentary coming out that should be out anytime now on Puharic, and he did track down a number of these space kids and talk to them. And of course, they're all older now, but. But one of the few people that he has not been able to track down and everyone else lost touch with is this Shiron woman who he's got all these tapes with, who he has all this information on. But it. It really is an outstanding mystery, like where she is and was she pulled because of her unique abilities, was she pulled it deeper into other programs or like, put through some kind of mixer and, you know, identities change, broaden, who knows what. Yeah, I think that something like that is probably the best you could do is like, find these extreme outliers and just.
[85:59]
Chris
Just utilizes.
[86:01]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But who knows? Who knows? But it's fascinating stuff that I will continue to dig deeper into. Did. Did Moss. Was Mossbridge actively involved in remote viewing stuff?
[86:15]
Chris
Yeah, she touched on it that she considered herself to be like, a decent remote viewer and that, you know, she's very much into the psy stuff, into precognition specifically as well, and that she's had precognitive events and that type of thing. You know, it's. I mean, it's all very interesting coming from a cognitive neuroscientist I'll tell you that. You know, it's one thing when I say I had a dream that foretold, you know, the future, but when someone of her pedigree says it or claims it, it does, it does come with an extra, you know, an extra sense of weight to it.
[86:55]
Michael
Yeah, I need to talk to her for sure. Given that she was on your show, I imagine you talked a lot about, at least to some degree, the phenomenon and like what she thinks is going. What is.
[87:07]
Chris
Yeah, we, we didn't really touch on it much because she's very much of the mind of. Sure, there's something. But the way she puts it so elegantly is it's not about race cars in the sky. And that's something I think we agreed on. Whereas you come into this topic much like myself, very naive. And yes, they're flying saucers and they're very, well, maybe, but that isn't what matters. And so she's kind of researching what does matter, which is this perhaps field that we share with these entities that we're able to navigate here using our mind. And that realm where the mind exists could potentially be one where communication happens, where the entities show up, you know, that type of thing. And yeah, she's done some interesting stuff. I always think of Dr. Daryl Bem doing those experiments, but she did them
[88:20]
Michael
better
[88:24]
Chris
where the variables were more contained and she had similar positive results, proving precognition to like almost like, I think like half a second before, which is quite substantial.
[88:39]
Michael
Where they would show. Yeah, explain those.
[88:41]
Chris
Yeah, yeah. They would have two types of images. One would be an image that was very negative, very sort of trauma inducing, maybe a picture of a gun or something. And the other image was a neutral image, nothing really stimulating at all. And they found to a very, very high degree with every one of these tests that when shown an image of a violent nature, it would stimulate a physical, or sometimes, well, a physical response in the brain or on the skin up to close to half a second prior to the image being shown over and over and over and over where it didn't. When it was a neutral image.
[89:27]
Michael
Yeah.
[89:28]
Chris
And so that proves in a vacuum that precognition exists. And she's got a peer reviewed paper about this. But she had to dress it up in a way that appeased a lot of the scientific minds. I forget the term she had, but it was like a overly complicated term just to say precognition. But you can't say precognition.
[89:52]
Michael
Pre sensory registration of information.
[89:55]
Chris
Yeah, exactly. Some, yeah. Some word salad, you know, that makes it a little more digestible to these, to these clipboard types. But essentially, yeah, proving that this stuff does exist. And now where she is studying is like, okay, on the assumption that it does exist, because it does according to scientific evidence. Where do we go from there? How do we increase psychic function? And she's found through an accident that love or unconditional love increases it. I say accidentally because they have all these questions they ask the participants. And one of those questions happened to be, are you feeling loved right now? Have you ever felt unconditional love? Are you feeling it right now? That was one of the many, many questions that they were asked. And they weren't looking for that particularly. And then they found that that was the correlating piece of variable that was, that was present in all of the positive or most of the positive tests outcomes was that. And so then they started testing for that specifically and found, you know, an increased result there. So really interesting stuff, hard science, not just hypothesizing, not just woo stuff. She's very much into the hard science.
[91:16]
Michael
Yeah. That those kinds of psy experiments I think are the most compelling for me. Those like Daryl Bem style, like what you just described, the random number generator stuff is interesting too, but it's so. It's so much more. It's not tied up into any kind of emotional direct mechanism in the way that that is. Right. Like where it's like there's a negative image. You're going to have a negative emotional neurological reaction to that information. And it's just. Yes, we're showing it over and over and over again and in various iterations. And I know that that kind of experiment has been repeated over and over again. But the random number generator raider stuff is interesting, but it's not as it seems like you can manipulate it or maybe not through many different methods. There's still going to be divergences from the mean if somebody, nobody does anything. And you can either ascribe cause to that or not. Like you can say, oh, this traumatic event happened in the world. And look at this. The, the random number generator did something crazy. But then there's. Then you're not accounting for the times where it did or didn't do it. So.
[92:25]
Chris
And the observation effect and.
[92:27]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, you know, honestly to that point that I guess you could think of all of like quantum stuff as a kind of psi or at least like double slit experiment type stuff as sort of psi experiments in and of themselves because you're you know, you could construe that as consciousness changing the outcome.
[92:47]
Chris
But she, she also. One really interesting thing when she was studying remote viewing was, you know, I, I often discuss Dr. Edwin May's work where he would talk about how entropy would be a big factor in, you know, gaining access to a target. The more entropy something had, the clearer the target would come through for the remote viewer. So if you were to pour liquid nitrogen on, you know, at a location versus not doing it, then you would get a more accurate reading of the location with the liquid nitrogen. So kind of like a moth to a flame, our brain detects change. Even in the quantum state, we're able to detect change. And, and then. So I brought that to her and she said, actually what they found was whatever you thought was more intriguing, that would be a better target.
[93:46]
Michael
So novelty.
[93:48]
Chris
Yeah, in a sense, novelty or, or, yeah, whatever you found more intriguing. So, so let's say you find rocks really intriguing. A rock for me, might be very boring and I might not pick up on it. But if you're very intrigued by minerals and it's very intriguing to you, then you will have a more accurate session in regards to what you're intrigued about. And so it really doesn't have to do with entropy. According to her. Entropy is just more intriguing, naturally. And so it really is about whatever your mind finds more intriguing or appealing, that's what's going to offer a better session. And so that's why you might see a fluctuation between different remote viewers and different targets. I thought that was a really interesting piece of information. And they really measured, they asked people, you know, which targets they found more intriguing out of a list of like a thousand targets or whatever. And then once the remote viewing session happened, the people were remote view, and they would correlate that, oh, that was actually more intriguing to you, and you got a more accurate session out of it. And so really interesting studies based on that as well. So, like, the capability of psy is subjective really, to what your subconscious finds intriguing.
[95:06]
Michael
Yeah, and our buddy Adam Curry talks about this too. And there's a specific phrase that I wish I could remember, but it's. It's essentially the, you know, the sanctioned phrase meaning you get worse results for the same thing over time and.
[95:19]
Chris
Right.
[95:19]
Michael
And part of the explanation for that might be what you're talking about is
[95:23]
Chris
like, comes more mundane.
[95:24]
Michael
Yeah, it becomes more mundane. It becomes less novel. Therefore it, the. It drops off and it's. What's even crazier, man, is I think that there's something to this. I could be totally wrong with this, and this could be total misinformation. But I think there's something to this effect with prescription drugs. I think there's, like, a curve where, like, effectiveness goes down over time, and it's not just like antibiotics or something, where there's, like, you know,
[95:51]
Chris
drugs. Psilocybin is a. You know, is a. I mean, that's directly. If you take shrooms every day, you're gonna eat. You're gonna eat a, you know, four grams of shrooms by the end of the month and not be high.
[96:03]
Michael
Right. But there's a neural. There's a neural explanation for that, whereas I'm sort of hinting at maybe reality itself. Yeah, yeah. Like, maybe there is, like, a not strong, but perceptible psychical weight or something, you know? You know, toward novelty. And that would make sense, dude, because we. We as a species, like. And again, man, this goes back to the intelligence test thing is, like, if part of our species is supposed to be evolving, like, if there is some kind of teleological outcome. Right. Like, if we're in some tadpole kind of stage that may take thousands or millions of years or whatever, you would want there to be a teleological bend toward novelty because that's how you discover. That's how you create new things. That's how you, you know, continue looking for novel pieces of information that will, like, push you through the next membrane. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah, yeah.
[97:06]
Chris
It all makes sense. We figured it out, man.
[97:09]
Michael
I love it when we figure everything out on these podcasts. You. You know, another thing, there's been a few things that I've uncovered, and this is, like, going to almost sound like a non sequitur, but I don't think it really is, actually, because of everything we've been talking about. One of the other things I wanted to. To say that I came across when I was doing research for this video, and I actually brought this up to Paul Heineck, and he did not know this in one of Vale's newest books, because I was. I was specifically looking for information about where did all this Rosicrucian stuff start. Right. Because obviously this plays into my theory that there's something more akin to the esoteric going on with the phenomenon than there is nuts and bolts, you know, high technology. So I was trying to look for traces of Vale talking specifically about Rosicrucian stuff and, you know, maybe how he got into it, how deep into it he was. And I didn't really find that But I found a very interesting little comment in one of. You know, how he's been releasing these essentially, like these diary books.
[98:17]
Chris
Yeah, forbidden.
[98:18]
Michael
Yeah, Forbidden Science volume whatever. Whatever. I think it's. Yeah, I think it was either six. I want to say it was six. But one of the things he said about Hynek is I always thought Hynek was. So for people that don't know, Valet and Heineck are often said to be Rosicrucian in some capacity. And. And Paul told both you and I, I think, separately on both of our shows that his father took it seriously enough to. To follow Rosicrucian burial rituals when he died. And for people that don't know what Rosicrucianism is, it is this esoteric mystical tradition that arises in, like, the 17th century, but it is heavily predicated upon hermetic ideas. And a lot of these ideas that Chris and I have been talking about, like, there. There is this higher field of consciousness we're all tapped into. And not only is there that there's this whole unseen realm with both terrestrial beings, celestial beings, et cetera, et cetera, and there's. There is also this transformational component to it, like that human beings are going through this philosopher's stone type of purification and transformation, both, I think, on a macro level, like. Like we can ascend to a higher plane, and then also on a personal level, like within your own life. So. So there's a lot of. These are some of the. The pieces. And admittedly, it is a loose tradition, and it's one of those things where there's, like, modern manifestations of it that are. Might not be connected to the original stuff and there might look a little
[99:53]
Chris
more culty than others.
[99:55]
Michael
Yeah, there. And there, you know, some. The. The. The fun conspiracy theory is that there really is still a real Rosicrucian tradition out there that's operating, you know, totally similar, secretly. So, anyway, Hynek did eventually get deep enough into this that he followed, you know, the burial ritual. And the thing that's interesting that Vale said is I always thought that Hynek started out. I'm a straight lace scientist. You know, I just. I'm a materialist, kind of mainstream thinker. But that apparently is not true. And what Vale says in his book is that he had a conversation with Hynek where Hynek told him, I think the reason I was brought into these programs in the first place was because of my interest in the esoteric. And I was just like, holy. That, like, completely changes my thought and And I don't think he's saying that that a hundred percent was the case, but it at least totally changed my idea about, you know, I assumed he was interacting with all of these cases and these witnesses and then coming to that conclusion. Exactly. But I guess it wasn't that. It was like he was filtering all
[101:05]
Chris
those cases through that lens of Rosicrucianism.
[101:11]
Michael
That makes sense. Even more seriously.
[101:12]
Chris
Yeah, yep, that does make sense. But it also, you know, gives pause when you are collecting information. You shouldn't be filtering it through any type of lens. That suits your own personal bias.
[101:28]
Michael
That is true.
[101:29]
Chris
You know, so when you look at that, you think, oh, this control system, because he was outright a denier of Bob Lazar and all these other things and, you know, no valet.
[101:41]
Michael
Oh, okay, okay.
[101:42]
Chris
And so if you look at, you know, if it doesn't fit the narrative, then I'm just going to omit it from the record type deal. Yeah. It becomes, I, you know, I, I, I don't know, I would love to speak to Jacques Filet one on one about these things, but I also have a feeling, you know, he's very wise. You're going to get a lot of that, you're going to get a lot of great value out of speaking with him at any occasion you can, I'm sure. And it, it would be fun to hear his take on things.
[102:18]
Michael
Yeah.
[102:19]
Chris
But I'm also, you know, I, I think we touched on this before, but, like, at what point do you get to your life and you just kind of want to wrap it up all neatly, do you know what I mean? And you're kind of like, you're faced with mortality. And I'm not saying, you know, that you can't feel this way at the age of 50 or whatever, but I think when you're more and more faced with your own mortality, there has to be a pull to trying to package it neatly and put a nice bow on it before you sail off into the sunset. And I just don't know how ready I am to do that just yet, which is why I like juggling and balancing so many different hypotheses at the same time. And so although the control system idea is neat and it packages everything up very perfectly, I'm not ready to accept that as being what we're dealing with just yet. Or at least not solely. Yeah, yeah.
[103:27]
Michael
And that's actually one of the interesting things about Vallee is he sort of packages both of those two ideas together. Like, he seems to be a proponent of the control System idea, but also is very openly interested in, in these spiritual things. And I, that's, that actually is the thing that if I could ask him to explain the connective tissue between, I would love to hear, because that almost is like an example of when you hear some of these people who supposedly do have inside knowledge. Like I'm like a, like a McCasland or like a semi van or like a Lou Elizondo, whatever. And yeah, I know a lot of people just by saying any number of those names. Some people's buttholes, clench or whatever, but whatever. Like take, take your.
[104:13]
Chris
Or open.
[104:14]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, take your preferred insider archon of the truth. They all do seem to say some version of. Yeah, the spooky mental stuff is very real and very core to it. And then also the nuts and bolts is very important to it. And then for me, that's always like the piece of connective tissue I want to hear someone give a reasonable explanation for. And I think with Valet, it's the same thing with the control system. And his interest in the esoteric is like, I get that you, you seem to acknowledge in all of your books that there is this ancient deep phenomenon and pattern that has been occurring all throughout human history that is interacting with us in mercurial ways and is spiritual, but it's not just spiritual, it's technological. Yeah, but, but then, okay, so now what about the control system? Is it like, is one thing downstream of the other? Because I, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Like, I think he, he, he believes that they're interacting. But I also don't think he would say that it's totally, you can terminate it in a super advanced technology and that's what it really is. And I also don't think he would go the fully spiritual direction because he is so deeply into technology and he is like, you know, a computer scientist and like has patents and has worked for darpa. And so, yeah, man, I, I would be that, that would be like the main thing I would want to try to wrap my mind around.
[105:51]
Chris
Yeah, but maybe the evasiveness that he's shown in interviews in order, you know, to pin him down on that very question. Maybe, maybe that's more of a signal of he doesn't want to say. I don't know.
[106:07]
Michael
Yeah, it could be. Yeah. And I would, you know, he's almost one of those people where. Yes, of course I would love to have a filmed conversation with him, but I would almost rather like to have unfilmed conversations so I can just get a more by osmosis.
[106:22]
Chris
Yeah, he's a sage. He's a modern sage. He's the closest thing we have to like a. A ufo, you know, shaman, like. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's who we have is a Jacques Vallee. He's the, you know, he also represents the entire sort of. He represents every facet of ufology.
[106:45]
Michael
Yeah, he does. He's kind of like a platonic UFO guy where he, like, wants to talk about. Yeah, I'll talk about the math and the technicals and all the, like. Yeah, the national stuff, but then I'll go to the. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[106:58]
Chris
And he's been to probably more landing encounters and crash sites than any other human being on this earth. Yeah, you know, or at least top 10, I'm sure. You know?
[107:09]
Michael
Yeah, yeah. You know, I wonder what's going to end up happening with this, if anything. Again, like, it's so hard to understand how this could be a nothing burger. Like, if this is a nothing burger, then, like, where else do we have to go from here? Is this apparent lifting of the NDA stuff that just came out? Like, apparently now there's been.
[107:29]
Chris
I don't think that's how NDAs work, by the way. Well, yeah, but I don't think you can. Blanket statement you're lifted from your NDAs. The amount of national security that's involved with the, you know, the Reasoning behind the NDAs, I don't think can be easily just tossed aside like that. I don't think that that's how that works. I think it's. I think that's probably more appealing to his constituents and people who, in social media rather than in a practical sense. Because if you're like, oh, I can talk about my NDAs. All right, co. So this secret base out in Syria that we made, there was a UFO over that and you go, what secret base in Syria? Now Syria knows about the secret base. You can't release people of their NDAs that easily. This is preposterous. I don't understand how people don't see that. It's very simple that obviously there is national security implications with many of these things, maybe not all of them, and perhaps too much security on some. But you can't just put blanket statement, throw everything out the window and be like, tell. Tell us everything. Go ahead. Like that.
[108:43]
Michael
Right.
[108:43]
Chris
That's not. Their. Their entire national security has been built on secrecy. They're not just going to, you know, give it up to tell a cool story.
[108:53]
Michael
Yeah. And as usual, I'm speaking out of ignorance here. Like, I don't know what all the implications and nuance around this, like waving of the NDA's thing is. I would imagine it has to be waived in a controlled, safe way where initially it's all done in skiffs, you know, and, and whatever. But yeah, even, even if, yeah, that is the case, then we should be seeing, we should be hearing from the people that like to run their mouths, right? We should be hearing from the people like the Congress people who go into these skiffs and talk to these people and say, yeah, we're really getting stuff now. Like, it's really coming loose.
[109:32]
Chris
Like, yeah, but I mean, it's going to take months, right? That's like a, it's going to take time for that to happen. If that is the case where they have, they're allowed to speak in a skiff, it's going to take a long time. And then also Congress members who do run their mouths about this stuff are probably going to be, you know, told, hey, for, for everyone's security, please do not go on Twitter and talk about this. I mean, you know what I mean? Please do not try to get more followers using this story. I mean, so you can expect probably a doubling down of secrecy rather than, you know, more of a transparency arise from this. Because if more people are involved in a national security secret, that means less people are talking.
[110:20]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, but, but with people like Vale and put off and all these other people of that era being where they're at, my God, I hope somebody gets them in a room and, and lets them let loose.
[110:35]
Chris
I mean, they probably already have multiple times.
[110:37]
Michael
My guess that, that to me really is one of the best. You know, I, I often, you know, anytime, especially I'm having the first conversation with somebody, you know, like a, who's really interfaced with this question deeply, whether, you know, it's like a Dolan or it's, you know, James Fox or whoever. I always, and I think I've probably asked you the same question, the, the whole why now? Question of disclosure. I think that might be really one of the best why nows is that you have so many people who are about to die that don't have not been able to like actually share all of the information that they have due to the fact that they've been within the military industrial complex for 45 years and they have 50 different NDAs from like 10 different sources or whatever. So they can't tell every, anybody everything they know. And if you can't get that information out of those people before they die, it's just going to be gone.
[111:34]
Chris
And, yeah, calculate all the amount of people who have died with that information that have never come forward at all in any capacity because they were doing their job. So many more, thousands probably. Do you know what I mean? Like the. That's. I. I would say the lack of sense of patriotism as we move forward is what's going to have this thing break at the seams. Patriotism was probably the number one impetus for keeping the secret in the first place. Coming out of World War II, coming out of the Manhattan Project, being a hero for keeping a secret, you know, for your country. That mentality continued on through the decades to follow the alleged crash retrievals. And so, if anything, I think patriotism was the number one thing keeping everything at bay. And I think as that wanes due to current or future mishaps in administration, I think we're going to. You're probably going to see a lot more information arise from people who are just not aligned with what their government is doing. And if you look at the likes of the Epstein files, which nobody aligns with. And so the sense of patriotism is waning as well. And so I would suspect a lot more people like Matt Brown, Dylan Borland, who are clearly. And David Grush, who see a sense of patriotism in coming forward rather than keeping the secret.
[113:15]
Michael
Yeah.
[113:16]
Chris
And I think as more light is being shed on the corruption, I think that. That hopefully will be for a lot of these whistleblowers and people within the program, a stimulant into having them come forward as that action being something that is patriotic rather than, you know, unpatriotic.
[113:35]
Michael
Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, the question of. Again, that immediately hits my mind is like, even if we get the information, are we going to end up being disappointed? Is it going to be another, you know, of course you are like, this is the wizard of Oz moment right here. And it's. No, it's not, though. It's.
[113:54]
Chris
It's no. You're going to be. No spoiler alert. There's no. No, that's the way that. That's the way how that works.
[113:59]
Michael
Right.
[113:59]
Chris
I'm going to show you a magic trick. You're going to be like, oh, my God, if I only knew how that worked, I'd be happy. I'll show you how it works. And you're. You're going to be less happy, I promise you. But did you see.
[114:09]
Michael
Yeah, sorry. Sorry to interrupt you. I was going to say, did you See, though, as a counterpoint, Hal. I don't even know where this was, but Hal was having some conversation on, like, a panel somewhere, and it might have. It might have been with Grush. I'm. I'm drawing a blank now. I know there's a woman who is, like, a moderator or hosting it or something, but she said, you know, made a joke, like, all right, well, just, you know, it'll just be between you and me and everybody in this room. And then everybody laughed or something. And then she asked a question, like, is there, like. Like, what percentage of, like, what, you know, have you said? And, like, is there a lot of, like, really actually important, consequential things that you could say that you can't say? And he's like, oh, yeah, I've said very little. Like, he said something like that. So. So, you know, there are moments like that where it's like, God damn it, he does know. He does know some. But. Yeah, man, I just. I don't know.
[115:04]
Chris
I had a. I had a recent conversation with Richard Doty.
[115:09]
Michael
Really?
[115:10]
Chris
Yeah.
[115:10]
Michael
Bro in the Skiff?
[115:12]
Chris
Yep.
[115:13]
Michael
Wow. Tell me more.
[115:16]
Chris
And, well, I mean, he worked with Hal for, like, a dozen years, right?
[115:20]
Michael
Really? I didn't even know that.
[115:22]
Chris
Yeah.
[115:23]
Michael
In what capacity?
[115:25]
Chris
NIDs, I think. And, like, that whole thing.
[115:28]
Michael
Okay.
[115:29]
Chris
Yeah, according to Dodie, he had a brother, really good relationship with Hal, and he was saying how, you know. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that they can't talk about, but they've been to, like, sites and whatnot and, you know. But take it from Dodie, I don't know, he can say whatever he wants to say. You know what I mean? That's the one guy that could tell you the truth, and no one's going to buy it, so.
[115:52]
Michael
No one.
[115:53]
Chris
He is an interesting person to interview because every piece of information you get out of him, you're like, hold on. This might be complete bullshit, or this might be the truth, but we're just never going to believe it. And that's insane.
[116:06]
Michael
Okay, to so. To zoom out on two things. So, one, Richard Doty is the quintessential psyoper extraordinaire. He is synonymous with the idea of disinformation and psyopping within the UFO community. He's like the subject of movies like Mirage Men, where he is, you know, specifically driving people insane. Benowitz in particular.
[116:31]
Chris
Well, I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say he is specifically driving them insane. I think that might be overstepping a little bit. I think. Well, I Think in an official capacity. He was by orders, according to him. And I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt of that. But you know, he was gaslighting someone in order to protect some type of secret program or national security, whatever, you know.
[117:03]
Michael
Well, he was breaking into people's houses and putting, moving things around and like putting things on, like messing, I mean just like do it. Doing things that legitimately would. Even if you didn't have a pre existing mental illness.
[117:17]
Chris
Sure.
[117:17]
Michael
You, you would. I, I would definitely start.
[117:20]
Chris
It would send you spiraling. Yeah, yeah. You know, and then that's. If you want to be mad at that, you could be mad at him, but you could also be mad at the establishment that allegedly allowed that to happen and that gave him those orders, which was the Office of Special Investigations, which continues to do that. Do you know what I mean? Like in like that's the one. This is the one time that you get to hear about it. You think that that's an isolated case. Like their agents aren't doing this constantly. Do you know what I mean? Like, like the anger obviously can be funneled to Richard Doty and everybody has the right to be frustrated, but I mean, shouldn't you be holding the entire agency responsible for making this happen? Shouldn't they be brought into Congress for spying on their own citizens and creating these psyops? Like, I mean this is, it's a bigger conversation than Richard Doty for sure.
[118:17]
Michael
Totally, totally. So the other big zoom out piece of context I wanted to give is little, little fourth wall breaking. When you go up to do Chris's pod. Chris is hanging, he's spending time, he's, you know, we're so, so point being, I'm assuming you did the same thing with, with Doty. Yeah. What, what was it just like hanging out with that guy and like, you know.
[118:44]
Chris
Yeah, he's a, he's a very affable guy. He's, he's nice, he's funny, he's quick witted, he's sharp. I think he likes the bullshit. Like in a non professional sense. He enjoys a good story. He likes laughing. There's, there's, you know, I didn't get any flags in terms of like, oh, he's insane, none of that. Very, very stable person. Now the things that come out of his mouth, you know, is really like I would caution everybody to treat it the same way. I treat all information that is provided through my channel at least, which is, yeah, take it as you would anything and you know, don't believe anything Outright and don't disbelieve anything outright. Just kind of take the information as it is and see if gels with some of the other information that you've collected in the past. That being said, I think we went four hours and I could have done another four.
[119:55]
Michael
Wow.
[119:55]
Chris
Because at dinner we're like, oh, we didn't even talk about that. Or we didn't talk about this, we should have talked about that. Like, oh my gosh. Yeah. And even during the podcast there were a few points where he was visibly uncomfortable and was like, I, I don't want to get. I. We can't get into that any further.
[120:14]
Michael
What made him uncomfortable?
[120:15]
Chris
Just pushing him on, on like, well, what do you mean by that? Well, you say this so flippantly. Like, what do you mean? You know, what's the name of the program? Who's involved? What's this person's name? Oh, you're claiming this person had an alien abduction that you investigated and that you. And this is, this is the big one. They allegedly a multi agency thing, you know, osi, nsa, CIA, whatever. He wouldn't name the agencies. I named them and I was like, these guys, these guys. And he's like, can't say you can't say. Take it for what you will, but apparently they've thwarted alien abductions.
[120:54]
Michael
Okay.
[120:56]
Chris
Which is like to me, I'm like, that's gotta be one of the most insane things I've ever heard. And then he gives the background story behind it, the person involved who's apparently testified in Congress in a skiff. And if that story ever comes out, it's going to like blow the lid. Allegedly, according to him. Which I'm very stimulated by a story like that. I think that's very interesting because it involves a certain type of entity as well, which is very interesting to talk about. But yeah, lots of like fun stories, I would say stories about him being on site when they retrieved UFOs that were like in a mine shaft and like some other. That like I think he hinted like Hal might have been present in some of these things too. And like, yeah, so like very interesting conversations.
[121:50]
Michael
And did he provide the sinew for like, okay, how, why would he be there? Like what, what is the context for.
[121:57]
Chris
Yeah, every single time. And it wasn't in like a, a very important capacity. Like he wasn't the go to person for any of that stuff. It seemed to always be circumstantial and then he had to be read in because of, you know, what happened or he was sent here and then he got talked to someone and they weren't supposed to tell you that. And then they got sent him back and he's got to fill out another paper. We talked about him being present at the Mario woods interrogation as well. You know where Mario woods in 77 had that crazy thing happened to him at Ellsworth Air Force Base. The missing time, the giant orb, the aliens, whatever. And he was then debriefed by the colonel on base at the Air Force base. And in the room was Richard Doty and this other gentleman who was his superior. Richard was like being taught. And this was before allegedly Richard was read into the program to a certain degree. And he has a picture of the officer that was with him, which I have to show to Mario. I'd be like, hey, this is the guy that was the OSI officer that was feeling around your mouth for two or three minutes looking for a device.
[123:02]
Michael
Whoa, dude.
[123:04]
Chris
And I asked him about that. I was like, what's going on with that? And they were like, yeah, they were looking for an implant. And like so again, it can help piece together something. Yeah, it can help maybe misdirect. All of these things are possible. Of course it does stand to be said that the disinformation stuff that he came forward about all happened during his time at osi. Was he involved in disinfo. Misinfo Afterwards, after his professional, you know, he says that he really wasn't. And so this is the question where you have to ask yourself is at what level of integrity do you take any of this information because of his past?
[124:00]
Michael
Well, it is at least plausible, right, that if you came to fame through one very small part of your career as like a counter intel OSI officer, and now everybody knows you for that, it's at least plausible that you were doing all kinds of other stuff as well. And that, that does not like that role, does not, yeah. Give an accurate picture of everything you've done. So yeah, I mean, dude, I don't know. I mean of course throw this on the heap of all of the like other sense making lines, landmines, epistemological landmines that are, that are. In this whole conversation. He was involved in the whole Dulce Bates too thing. Or no, wait, maybe just Benowitz was involved in Dulce.
[124:46]
Chris
Yes, but like he was, you know, involved in seminating disinformation to William Moore to like, you know, a lot of the people within the UFO community. They were tasked to infiltrate the UFO community specifically because like he said a lot of times Experiencers, they would call places like New Fork or whatever prior to calling the authorities or prior to calling the Air Force or the osi. And so to be first at the scene, infiltrating into the mufons, the new Forks, the Kufos, would be imperative if you were trying to control this narrative. And so, you know, I was like, follow up question is that what's happening with MUFON? He's like, oh, 100%. He's like, 100%. These agencies are infiltrated. And, you know, I even say to myself, like, how could they not be? If you're an intelligence gathering agency and this stuff is potentially real, how could you willfully ignore being part of that community in good conscience, if you're trying to protect national security, you would have to be infiltrated. Right. So, you know, he says a lot of things that make a lot of sense and a lot of good stories. I would say take them like you take anything. But one thing that I do enjoy on my channel is having people suspend their disbelief, getting to hear all sides of the story, and, you know, having these very interesting things to then ruminate in your mind. And I think in that sense, it's going to be one of the most interesting conversations that people will hear because it does raise a lot of questions, personally. What if what he's saying is true? Are we allowed to believe him now? Do we want to believe him? Does he even deserve to be listened to? All these questions are going to be asked by the audience, but if you give it a chance and listen to it, you're going to be, if nothing else, thoroughly entertained.
[126:52]
Michael
Yeah, you've got some banger guests coming up, man. You've had him. You've had Mossbridge. Who else you got come in this week?
[127:00]
Chris
Actually, tomorrow. Thomas Jane's coming in.
[127:03]
Michael
Oh, cool.
[127:03]
Chris
Yeah, yeah, very.
[127:04]
Michael
Met him at Contact.
[127:05]
Chris
Yeah, yeah, that's right. We also. Jason quit. Is going to be this. Oh, nice. Friday.
[127:11]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one.
[127:15]
Chris
Yeah. He was fun to talk to as well. And then I traveled to Seattle and I talked to Jonathan Reed as well, so.
[127:22]
Michael
Mmm. Traveling. Traveling. He must have been. He must have been highly worth it for you to. Jonathan Reed, break out of the skiff.
[127:29]
Chris
Do you know the name?
[127:30]
Michael
I don't. Honestly, I know the name. I don't know the story.
[127:33]
Chris
You ever hear of the guy who bludgeoned an alien in the woods and filmed it?
[127:37]
Michael
Oh, shit, okay. I guess not.
[127:40]
Chris
And then dragged his body into his freezer and then filmed it further?
[127:43]
Michael
Oh, yes. No, I Think I have. I think I have, yes.
[127:46]
Chris
Yeah.
[127:47]
Michael
Wow.
[127:48]
Chris
Spent like three and a half hours talking to him as well.
[127:51]
Michael
Did he. Did he show you a test tube filled with alien blood?
[127:55]
Chris
Not really, but he did show me some interesting things, but I'll let the audience decide on that one. That one gets wild real quick. My conviction level, I would say on the initial account of him meeting an alien, slightly higher. Really? Talking to him, Slightly higher. Initially low anyways, but slightly higher. Definitely not over 50%, but like just slightly above where it was, I think, on everything that happened after. Lower conviction. And so interesting conversation, regardless, to have with someone like that, where you get. Where you get to posit these really strange ideas and then just kind of let it go and move on afterwards, I think is healthy.
[128:41]
Michael
Isn't it funny that there's always aliens in the woods for some reason?
[128:44]
Chris
Yeah.
[128:45]
Michael
Like, what are they doing in there?
[128:46]
Chris
Yeah. Camping out.
[128:49]
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what that does make me think of, though, is have you ever seen that video of the shamans who are shown a picture of a gray alien and they're like, speaking. I don't know if they're speaking Spanish people or whatever. Yeah. And they're like, oh, those are. They live under. They, like live underground or something.
[129:02]
Chris
Yeah, I thought that was.
[129:04]
Michael
Yeah, it's fascinating.
[129:05]
Chris
Yeah. I thought that was one of the cooler nuggets. I would love to have someone like that on the show.
[129:11]
Michael
Yes. No. Yeah. You and I were talking about. You were. You were saying you need to have more shamans on the show. And I agree. And, you know, I actually found at
[129:18]
Chris
least indigenous folk, first nations people who have, you know, a deeper history with this stuff. Really. Really a long history. Like, we are to them just, like, scratching the surface blindly.
[129:32]
Michael
Right.
[129:33]
Chris
But at the same time simultaneously being like, oh, we're so knowledgeable about this stuff. And they're looking at us rolling their eyes, being like, dude, you have no idea what you're even. Like, you've no idea.
[129:44]
Michael
One of the things I have to follow up on is there is. So, you know my buddy Colin, who you met last year?
[129:50]
Chris
Yeah.
[129:51]
Michael
He did a. He scored this new documentary on the whole extended state DMT study. And, you know, as such, met and became aware of a lot of people that were involved in this. And there's this. This philanthropist guy who helped fund that study, and he participated in the study as well. Like, he was one of the guys, but he also flew his personal shaman in to do the extended state. And so his personal shaman also went through that. I Want to talk to that guy? Yeah, because that's a guy who's, who's got that whole cultural worldview and training of shamanism and then has also been under extended state dmt. So I feel like that would be a really fascinating conversation.
[130:36]
Chris
Would you ever do the extended say stuff?
[130:38]
Michael
Dude, I, it's like, it's intimidating for sure. I mean it's, it's, you know, I know what it's like to have like a heroic dose level experience of things and it's like incredibly intense. And the idea of being in that state state for indefinite amounts of time is very intimidating. But I, I've talked to Danny Goler about it. He did like one of the insane, you know, five hour ones and he said his experience was incredibly angelic and just immediate, like catapulted into higher angelic realm type things. And he had all these experiments that he wanted to do.
[131:17]
Chris
Like, doesn't that making, doesn't that make being human just so dull?
[131:21]
Michael
It seems like it would, bro.
[131:23]
Chris
Right? Like, why would you want that? I don't understand. I'm very happy having my mind blown by things that I can touch and see.
[131:31]
Michael
Wouldn't it bring some sort of like existential perspective though that you could then bring back?
[131:37]
Chris
Well, I've had experiences like with psychedelics, but again, it just brings me to the like, what's the hurry? Like, like, you know what I mean? Like I'm trying to experience what it's like being non physical. Why?
[131:55]
Michael
Well, like, see, see, I knew we'd circle back to this conversation because I feel like then, because then I feel like it informs your understanding of what you are on a deeper level and then you're able to operate in this life that we have now in a sort of different way, you know.
[132:12]
Chris
But how many times do you need to do that before you can start operating in that way?
[132:15]
Michael
Well, maybe you don't, maybe, maybe you don't need it. Like, maybe you are comfortable with your immortality. You, you have perspective, whatever, but a lot of people don't. And you have a platform that you, you have the ability to, you know, if you, if you come back with like the afterglow of some like deep, deep knowing and you share that with people that. I think that has a big ripple
[132:35]
Chris
effect, you know, maybe, yeah, maybe I'm just some pompous prick who's got too much money and time on his hands that he does drugs on the side.
[132:44]
Michael
That's for sure. No, but. Well, that's one of the things I love about you, dude. Is that even though you are, you know, a success, successful person is. I do. You're clearly often thinking about other people. You're clearly, you know, a very generous, down to earth person. And you, you've pretty much displayed that in all of our, in all of our hangs, man. So.
[133:07]
Chris
Well, thank you. I appreciate that, Michael, and likewise.
[133:10]
Michael
Thanks, brother. Speaking of hangs, I'm very excited to come out on the road with you in, in just 10 days, I guess.
[133:19]
Chris
Yes.
[133:20]
Michael
Yeah, it's going to be awesome, man. I can't wait.
[133:22]
Chris
Yeah, it's probably nothing.com for tickets. We'll be hitting that road. Can't wait, man. We got a few really interesting guests that you're. You're coming to sf, right? San Francisco.
[133:36]
Michael
That's when we'll meet up. Yep, yep.
[133:37]
Chris
Yeah, that's after la, right?
[133:39]
Michael
Yes.
[133:40]
Chris
Oh, so you're gonna miss Bashar. Oh, man. But you're gonna get. We got Whitley in San Francisco.
[133:47]
Michael
Oh, cool.
[133:48]
Chris
Yep. Josh Polarity also going to be there. Plus like, there's always. What's cool is that these places always have people show up that you recognize or that you know. Right. That are around. And then secondly, the audience participation part of it, where we get to bring up an audience member. And so because you're going to be on that show with me, you're going to be able to read the audience submissions with me and we'll together pick who we want to interview.
[134:13]
Michael
Awesome.
[134:13]
Chris
And that for me is like one of the most exciting things about this tour is getting people who like, watch the show or whatever share their experience. And often, like, these people could write a book. Like, their experiences are just as insane, if not more than anything you've ever heard. And that's something that I love shedding a light on, is that this doesn't happen to people who have books only. This happens to the literally very normal people.
[134:40]
Michael
I'm also really stoked that it's going to be at that palace of Fine Arts, because that place, like every time I go to San Francisco, I go there like my. I have family out in, in San Fran and that's one of the places I'm.
[134:51]
Chris
Oh, are they gonna come to the show?
[134:53]
Michael
I. I haven't even talked to them yet because this is all kind of.
[134:56]
Chris
I'll get them tickets really quickly, but for sure we'll put them on the guest list, tell them to come by.
[134:59]
Michael
Cool, cool. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll extend the invitation. But yeah, that place, for anybody that hasn't seen it, it's just like. There's essentially these, like, Greco Roman ruins in the middle of the San Francisco that I think they built for, like, a world's fair, and then they just, like, reconstructed it or. I don't know how the fuck they moved it, but. But, yeah, man. Why don't we have World's Fairs anymore? Like, those sound like, the most cool, you know?
[135:26]
Chris
It's so cool. I think they still have them in, like, in. I think Tokyo or Japan had one.
[135:33]
Michael
Oh, yeah, they just had one. Like Osaka. I remember reading about that. Yeah.
[135:36]
Chris
And then also, I think Dubai has their own. Own version of it as well, which is, like, very high tech.
[135:43]
Michael
Yeah.
[135:44]
Chris
You know? Yeah, I'm excited about that.
[135:47]
Michael
Yeah. And I guess now it's more about, like, computers and robots, not, like, building megalithic structures and, like, shooting electricity through the air, like.
[135:56]
Chris
Yeah.
[135:56]
Michael
Or like a tram style or something.
[135:59]
Chris
Like a. You know, We've got the tram.
[136:03]
Michael
Yeah.
[136:04]
Chris
Yeah.
[136:05]
Michael
All right, brother. Always an absolute blast. Can't wait to hang with you on the road. And congrats on all of your continued success, of course.
[136:14]
Chris
Thanks. Likewise. And thanks to your audience for listening.