212: The Other Man

Summary

This American Life – Episode 212: The Other Man

Date: April 5, 2026
Host: Ira Glass

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Episode Overview

This episode explores what happens when an outsider—“the other man”—arrives in a closed system, forever changing its dynamics. Through three distinct acts, the show presents stories about disruption and adaptation: from a movie star upending family roles, to a spiritual presence transforming a household, to a political doppelganger complicating a congressional race, and finally, to an eccentric suitor entering a mother-daughter duo. Each story unfolds with humor, honesty, and the signature warmth and wryness typical of This American Life.

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Act One: Psychic Buddha. Kesca Se

Story by Davey Rothbart
Segment Start: [07:15]

Main Points & Insights

• The Arrival of “Aaron”

  • Davey’s mom, Erin, begins “channeling” a spirit called Aaron, an ancient Buddhist monk, after becoming deaf at 29.
  • Aaron becomes a constant presence, dispensing wisdom, coaching Erin in Buddhism, and supporting her through adversity.
  • What starts as a private spiritual journey soon turns the family home into a hub for meditation, New Age seekers, and healing.

• Family Dynamics and Skepticism

  • As Erin’s son, Davey, reports, her spiritual role revitalizes her after isolation and despair, reshaping family connections.
  • The family, including brothers Mike and Peter, reflect on Aaron with varying degrees of belief and skepticism.
  • Mike leaned into Aaron's teachings to heal from trauma; Peter remains agnostic.

• Exploring “Realness”

  • Davey interviews Aaron through Erin, questioning the origins of Aaron: is he real or her invention in response to pain?
  • Aaron (via Erin) admits he can’t prove his existence but says:

    “Are the ideas that I offer useful to you? Forget me. Are the ideas useful to you?” — Aaron (Erin Rothbart) [21:33]

  • The story highlights the pragmatic role of belief: whether real or imagined, Aaron brought comfort and direction.

• Healing the Family

  • Aaron’s teachings help Erin and her husband reframe their marriage and emotional struggles.
  • Davey concludes:

    “Believing in Aaron is a lot like believing in God…I have a hard time having an unswerving faith in something you can't see or prove exists. But I do have that kind of faith in my mom. That's why I believe in Aaron.” — Davey Rothbart [31:37]

• Memorable Family Moments

  • Hilarity ensues when Davey’s dad attempts to channel his own spirit guide, “Monga,” proving less convincing than Erin.
  • The family reminisces about meditation classes, skepticism, and finding unity in their odd arrangement.

Notable Quotes

• “I feel his presence there constantly. But it's like sitting in a room with somebody…if it's somebody you really love, there's a comfort in that presence.” — Erin Rothbart [08:46]
• “Basically, when I would call, I'd explain how I was doing, and Aaron would just really help me to see things from a more universal perspective…that my problems were temporary.” — Mike Rothbart [14:07–14:19]
• “Aaron came in peace, and that's what he brought us.” — Davey Rothbart [31:00]

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Act Two: The Jackson 2

Segment Start: [35:04]

Main Points & Insights

• Political Intrigue & Double Identity

  • Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. is stunned to learn that another man, also named Jesse L. Jackson, has entered the Congressional race in his district.
  • Initial confusion arises over the challenger’s existence; he turns out to be a retired truck driver recruited for the purpose.
  • The move is traced to the Shaw brothers—local political operatives—who seek to dilute Jackson’s political clout.

• Name Games in Politics

  • The tactic: put another candidate with the same name on the ballot to confuse voters, a practice not uncommon in local politics.
  • Mark Brown (Chicago Sun-Times) provides commentary on the farcical, almost slapstick, nature of the situation.
  • Congressman Jackson investigates, uncovering fraudulent petition practices, but the shadow of nepotism and the power his father’s name casts never recedes.

• Reflection on Political Reputation

  • Congressman Jackson laments:

    “I want it to be about issues of concern to my constituents. …Rather than running a race on a third airport or discussing O’ Hare expansion or how to get more jobs, I'm caught in a fight with people who aren't even running for Congress in my race.” — Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. [39:57]

  • The episode contextualizes this practice, showing it as both a dirty trick and political theatre.

• Resolution

  • After legal wrangling and the exposure of petition shenanigans, the “other” Jesse Jackson drops out, but not before highlighting the ways identity, legacy, and subterfuge intermingle in democratic contests.
  • Ironically, after years in Congress, Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. faces his own fall from grace, ending with a prison sentence.

Memorable Moment

• “Rabbit hunting is fun until the rabbit gets the gun.” — Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. [44:01]
• “It's funny to everybody but the Congressman.” — William Shaw (paraphrased by Ira Glass) [43:07]

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Act Three: Mr. Fun

By: Heather O’Neill & Jonathan Goldstein
Segment Start: [45:56]

Main Points & Insights

• Disruption: Domestic Edition

  • The story shifts to the intimate world of Heather and her daughter Arizona, a self-sufficient pair until Heather falls for Johnny, a hapless magician and teacher.
  • Johnny’s attempts to ingratiate himself as “the other man” in a duo unwelcoming of third wheels drive the narrative.

• Comic Culture Clash

  • Johnny’s earnestness and clumsiness contrast with Arizona’s childlike cunning and skepticism.
  • Their first encounters fizz: he ranks “number 19” on her list of favorite people, behind neighbors and even the plumber.

    “He actually ranked below the neighbor’s dog and the plumber who drank two gallon bottles of Pepsi while he worked and let Arizona hand him wrenches.” — Heather O’Neill [53:35]

• Battle of Wills

  • Johnny’s gifts (mood rings, pop-up books), attempts at discipline, and efforts at bonding mostly flop, leading to comic exasperation.

    “She was like the Muppet Baby, Joe Pesci.” — Jonathan Goldstein [49:42]

  • Arizona, wise beyond her years, declares:

    “This isn't what you do to have a good time.” — Arizona [56:44]

  • She and Johnny invent a vaudeville act, encapsulating their fraught, funny relationship as stage antagonists—frenemies under one roof.

Notable Quotes

• “Children need discipline. They like it was a favorite banner of Project Goldstein.” — Jonathan Goldstein [52:17]
• “My mom’s shadow is longer than yours. That means you’re short.” — Arizona [53:03]
• “Tell me why! He's my friend, I said, and you have to pretend to like him.” — Heather O’Neill [55:04]

Memorable Scene

At Burger King, Arizona has a meltdown over pickles, punctuating Johnny’s outsider status and highlighting how even small changes can disrupt a delicate familial balance.
And yet, by the end, their invented vaudeville routine shows a grudging tacit acceptance and the possibility, even in awkwardness, of forming new kinds of family.

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Selected Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:30] – Sarah’s Robert Redford story, introduction of “the other man” theme in a family setting.
• [07:15] – Start of "Psychic Buddha" (Davey Rothbart’s segment).
• [20:13] – Channeled message from “Aaron.”
• [35:04] – “The Jackson 2” and the political doppelganger story begins.
• [45:56] – “Mr. Fun” – Johnny enters Heather and Arizona’s lives.

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Tone and Style

The episode balances humor, emotional candor, and cultural commentary—from the comedic to the poignant. Stories are told in the personal, confessional tones of the subjects, featuring witty observations, introspective asides, and deft narrative structure.

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Conclusion

Through stories of “the other man” in myriad forms—movie stars, mystical spirits, political name games, and awkward new stepdads—This American Life episode 212 explores the subtle and seismic ways outsiders disrupt, challenge, and sometimes enrich the systems they enter. The episode’s warmth, honesty, and sharp wit invite listeners to reflect on family, faith, power, and belonging.

Transcript

[Ira Glass]

Support for this American life comes from Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, so when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get [e-mail], own the dream.

When Sarah was a kid, the number of movie stars who came to stay at their house was exactly one and was kind of a disaster. Robert Redford ended up at their house because he had heard about a book that Sarah's stepfather was writing about Leonard Peltier of the American Indian movement. It was still just a manuscript and the stepfather didn't want to send copies of it around. So he told Redford that the only way that Redford could read it is if he would do it at their house in Long Island. Redford agreed. Sarah says the atmosphere in the house when he arrived was completely different from any other time in her childhood.

[Sarah]

I remember mostly my mother like consciously trying to be very charming and being very charming and talking to him a lot and asking all sorts of questions and laughing a lot at what he said and kind of flitting about the house in a way that I hadn't remembered her doing before.

[Ira Glass]

Robert Redford told stories, even the simplest story about his trip to the house. Her parents nodded and smiled along with an enthusiasm that the stories did not necessarily seem to merit. To 11 year old Sarah.

[Sarah]

I was really, I was sullen and I think I was making a really concerted effort not, not to be impressed, you know. Now, 20 years later, I think I was jealous that he was suddenly the star of the house, whereas I was used to being the star of the house. I was the youngest kid and, you know, I was sort of the one who amused my parents. And you know, here was this stranger coming in who had, you know, usurped my role. And I remember when came in, poor guy. The first night my mother made this special dinner and we ate in the kitchen. We had this big wooden table and it was definitely fancier than usual or like one more course than we usually had. Maybe we had an appetizer or something which we never normally had. And she had put down these placemats that were. We only brought them out on special occasions. You know, it all looked really festive and nice. And so he sits down and we start eating, and Robert Redford says, oh, do you always eat like this? This is so nice. And I said, no. And my mother at the same time said, yes, we do. It was bad. And then another thing happened where the. The seats at that table were these benches. So I was sitting on the same bench as Robert Redford. And I started rocking, you know, kind of rocking, knowing, like, partly unconsciously, because I kind of always did that, but also just knowing, I'm sure, that it would be highly irritating to whoever's sitting on the bench with you. So there poor Robert Redford was, like, rocking back and forth, trying to eat his dinner. And my mother said, you know, Sarah, stop. Stop rocking, you know, and sort of scolded me in front of Robert Redford.

[Ira Glass]

The next day, a friend of Sarah's from down the street asked if she could come over and meet the house guest.

[Sarah]

So she comes over and she's, you know, she reacts the way you are supposed to react. Like, she's just, you know, her eyes open wide, and she's just smiling and talking, you know, and saying, I'm such a. And I love your movies, and can I have your autograph? And he's delighted. You know, finally someone is showing the proper protocol. And he's like, yeah, sure, yeah, hey. And my mother's standing there smiling, you know, and how sweet. And she says, sarah, would you also like his autograph? And I said, no. And that was like the crowning blow.

[Ira Glass]

Well, it's like somehow, like, if you picture your family as like this little solar system in and of itself, like, with its own set of normal gravitational fields and all that. Suddenly, like, I don't even know what, like another star, another planet entered in, and it completely shifted everyone's orbit away from the way it normally is, right?

[Sarah]

And I couldn't handle it. All my behavior, I think, was aimed at trying to get it back to the way I had wanted it or the way I was comfortable.

[Ira Glass]

Because in the old solar system, pretty much, you were the sun. Like, you were at the center, right?

[Sarah]

And he was so clearly like a bigger sun, you know, he was. He was literally a star. You know, he was a star.

[Ira Glass]

Well, today on our radio program, stories of what happens when an outsider arrives and changes everything for better and worse. From WBEZ Chicago, it's this American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Our program today in three acts. Act one, Psychic Buddha. Kesca Se. The story of what happens to an average American family. Win mom, who is completely rational and charming and funny, starts to spend every day in Direct contact with an ancient Buddhist monk who no one else can see, who last walked the earth hundreds of years ago. Fact 2 the Jackson 2. The story of a politician whose life is shadowed by two different men, both of whom share his same name. Mr. Fun, Jonathan Goldstein and Heather O' Neill tell the true story of what happened when he first arrived in her life and why her little daughter explained to him that he is the daughter's 19th favorite person in the world and not likely to rise. Stay with us. Support for this American life and the following message come from Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you are probably multitasking. Are you scrolling home listings on Redfin? Saving homes that you don't really expect to get. Redfin wants you to know that they are not just built for endless scrolling. They really are built to help you find and own home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, so when you find the one, you got a shot at getting it. Get [e-mail] own the dream ira this is American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Today's show is a rerun. Act 1 Psychic Buddha Kesca Se. A quick note before we start this next story. One of the people in the story, our reporter's mother, is completely deaf. She woke up one morning when she was 29 and her hearing was gone. And so to communicate with her, the family uses sign language and fingerspelling. She can read lips. If you talk very, very slow, it sounds like this.

[Davey Rothbart]

Can I have 20 bucks?

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

Can you have 20 bucks? No.

[Ira Glass]

This is a story where another man shows up in a family and the other man is an ancient spirit named Aaron. Mom started channeling Aaron years ago. Aaron has been through lifetime after lifetime, going back a couple thousand years. He instructs her in Buddhism and in meditation. Her son, Davy Rothbart, put together this story on what it has meant to have Aaron around all these years in their family. But also when he went to interview everybody in the house that he grew up in in Ann Arbor, Michigan, he realized that they had never sat down as a family and actually discussed whether they thought Aaron was real, whether they actually believed in Aaron. They got a chance to do that, too. Here's Davey.

[Davey Rothbart]

I was 12 when Aaron showed up. My older brother Mike was 15. My little brother Peter was 7. I first found out about Aaron by reading through my mom's journals when she wasn't home. What some people call dirty snooping, I called being curious. And I was a curious kid. I remember reading about Aaron this, Aaron that, and all these long, incredible conversations my mom and Aaron had had. For a while, I thought Aaron was some dude my mom was sneaking around with. Then one morning in the dining room, she explained to me and my brothers about Aaron. How he just came to her one day. She's always meditated every morning. And I guess this one time in winter, while she was sitting quietly in the living room, she felt the presence of someone. Then she saw him. A biblical looking figure with blue eyes and a long white beard. At first my mom thought she was hallucinating. She asked the guy who he was. He said his name was Aaron. He's never gone away.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

I feel his presence there constantly. But it's like sitting in a room with somebody and you're reading a book and they're reading a book. And you don't always have to talk to each other. You just feel the other person's presence. And if it's somebody you really love, there's a comfort in that presence.

[Davey Rothbart]

Is he your best friend? Kinda.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

Not that kind of relationship. Yes, he's a friend. A very dear friend. But it's more a revered teacher than a pal.

[Davey Rothbart]

Do you and dad still knock boots? Do we still be making make him with the love? What does Eren do?

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

What does Eren do when we make love? I've noticed he uprits his game since the one time that he's really not around. Although if I called on him, he would be. But I do feel his presence or energy.

[Davey Rothbart]

When Aaron showed up, one of the first things he did was dictate to my mom a piece of 2,500-year-old Buddhist scripture called the Satya Patana Sutra. My mom says she'd never heard of it before. Aaron kept teaching her more scriptures and coached her in meditation and the Buddhist traditions. After a while, a couple of my mom's friends wanted in on the teachings. So she started showing them how to meditate and began channeling Aaron for them. It was strange. My mom and Aaron became these gurus and more and more folks started coming by every night of the week. We'd have a crowd of New Age types in the kitchen, grazing on vegan cookies and foraging through our herbal teas. My mom and Aaron would lead meditation sessions out in our converted garage.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

Gently bring your attention to the touch of the breath.

[Davey Rothbart]

Wherever my mom was, so was Aaron. And if you're wondering what it was like growing up in a house like this, the only way I can describe it is it felt completely normal. Erin was just another member of the family. We'd be at breakfast or driving in the car. And my mom would tell us things that Erin was saying to her. It was like he was an old college friend of hers who we all knew well. He had a weakness for puns and dumb jokes. He was always marveling at new things that hadn't existed in his last lifetime. I remember how intrigued he was one time by the sight of a Ferris wheel at a school carnival when kids from school came over. Me and my brothers always explained about our mom and Aaron, but we never really felt embarrassed or weird about it. This was Ann Arbor, the Berkeley of the Midwest. Our friends parents were ex hippies and liberal professors. Nobody thought channeling was that strange. Not long ago, on a winter weekend, my brother Mike was in town visiting. And we went for a walk to the elementary school playground near the house.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

I wish I could remember exactly the point where I started to believe that it really was channeling and not just mom going slightly psycho.

[Davey Rothbart]

You know what I remember? I just remembered there was that Shirley MacLaine movie on TV, out on a limb, I remember. And it was just the worst, sappy, silly stuff ever.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

My mom loved it and wanted us all to watch it.

[Davey Rothbart]

Yeah, she was, like, eating it up. And it was soon after that she met Aaron. And I was like, that's convenient. Mike is 30 years old and married now. He lives in Madison, Wisconsin. He's a professional photographer and he's into the outdoors. Out of me and my brothers, he's probably the most spiritual. When Mike started getting into Aaron and his teachings, I wasn't sure what to make of it. I just felt like, okay, like, you and me and Peter used to all, like, make fun of, like, mom students and stuff like that.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Well, mostly you and Peter used to make fun of.

[Davey Rothbart]

Okay, yeah, me and Peter used to make fun of these weird people that come to the house. But sometimes, like, you would try to, like, sort of be down with me and Peter and you would, like, try to make fun of them too. But then you were up there, like, doing all the voodoo stuff along with

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

the rest of them. I did used to feel. I used to feel torn that I didn't want to be cool or kind of be accepted by you and Peter. Yeah, but I was really interested in what they were, what they were doing.

[Davey Rothbart]

Of everyone in the family, Mike has turned to Aaron the most. In his freshman year of college, Mike basically had a breakdown. What happened was he started dealing with the fact that he'd got molested by a neighbor when he was little. The emotional weight of that started tearing him apart, you couldn't function.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

At first, I felt like I was sinking, like, in a pit, just sinking further and further, getting depressed, not doing much of anything. And then, I don't know, I just basically eventually got so bad that I just called mom and asked her for help. And she said, well, basically she said, well, I'll put Aaron on the line, right?

[Davey Rothbart]

What can Aaron say that's that, like. I mean, like, after what you went, some dude, like, touched you improperly. And, I mean, that seems pretty. What can Aaron say to make that better or go away? He can't, like, take it back. He can't. I wish Aaron was more like the punitive type of spirit. And, like, if you said, some dude, like, improperly touched me, and he would. He would. No, he would just, like, put, like, a bolt of lightning and, like,

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

you

[Davey Rothbart]

know, we read about in the paper the next day, then I'd be like, yeah, right.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Basically, when I would call, I'd explain how I was doing, and Aaron would just really help me to see things from a more universal perspective. Like, here I was, you know, like,

[Davey Rothbart]

your problems aren't really that big.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Or, like, more that my problems were temporary.

[Davey Rothbart]

I remember when Mike would call from school to talk to my mom and Erin. She didn't have a deaf telephone back then, so Mike could talk to me, and I'd translate into sign language for my mom. And I remember there'd be long stretches where I'd just do the sign for crying, running my finger down my cheek again and again. Over the past 12 years, I've watched my mom and Erin help literally thousands of people. Folks come to them in so much pain and seem to leave feeling so much calmer. I've always felt really proud of my mom for all the work she's done to help people through their darkest times. In fact, when Aaron first arrived in our house, things in our family were pretty miserable. Both my mom and my dad say that when my mom went deaf, it was incredibly difficult for them and that it began to tear them apart. Here's my dad.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

I think one way to characterize it would be just to show how tough it was. It was. I mean, that's the way I felt every day, just about every minute, like, screaming. And I think I did it frequently enough.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

When I first lost my hearing, it was devastating. It was totally cut off. There was no communication at all. Just a sense of being totally isolated from the world.

[Davey Rothbart]

When my mom first went deaf, she didn't read lips or use sign language. She lost her job teaching sculpture at the university, she couldn't communicate with her friends. In fact, a lot of them just disappeared. My dad got frustrated and upset with her when she couldn't understand him. He says he felt like she was taken from him, like his wife was gone. And he didn't handle it well.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

It was a big shock. I mean, I never met anybody that was deaf. And I was concerned that maybe she had brought it on herself. Because we went to a mall in Detroit one time on a very cold and windy day, and she refused to put on a jacket or a coat or anything. So I figured that it was her fault. And I kept asking myself the question. Seems strange now, but the question was, why is this happening to me?

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

And dad was totally overwhelmed by it. He couldn't talk to me. I could talk to him because he could hear me. He couldn't talk back to me. So he had so much anger. And his anger cut me out.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

I would get mad. I would curse at her. I would yell at her. Of course, she couldn't hear me cursing. But then she told me that, yeah, she could tell the expression in my face that I was saying something vile.

[Davey Rothbart]

It was like this for 15 years. We could never tell when my dad was going to just blow up. A couple of times, my mom packed me and my brothers into the station wagon, ready to leave. My mom says she was praying for some kind of relief. And then Aaron appeared. And after that, things began to change. My mom got a focus and purpose in her life. People looked up to her. She wasn't isolated anymore. And Aaron worked with my dad to help him learn how to manage his anger. It's always seemed to me that my little brother Peter is the one in my family most skeptical of Aaron's existence. Growing up, me and him would tease our mom for talking to ghosts. We used to mess around and do imitation of Aaron for our friends. Our favorite thing was when salespeople called and asked for Aaron. Usually it's for Mr. Aaron undetermined. They ask. I guess that's. Yeah, they ask, is Mr. Aaron undetermined? There I have to explain to them that Aaron is not of this world. Um, do you believe in Aaron? Um, in what sense do I think that everything mom says about Aaron is real? I don't pretend to know. I don't. I don't think it's important to me. Like, is Aaron really a higher spirit that tells mom all this stuff? Or is she just, like. Is it just some sort of imaginary friend that developed as, like, a psychological tool for helping her figure out her own problems. It's just like it doesn't seem like something I can really figure out. I gotta say, I completely understand Peter's agnostic stance. It's tough to start asking the question of whether or not Aaron is real when either answer you get could be pretty unsettling. I mean, say Eren is real, then all the stuff he talks about is real too. It means God exists and reincarnation and that there really is this whole vast spirit world that most of us can't see. But alright, say Aaron's not real. If Aaron's not real, either my mom's lying or she's deluded. I know she wouldn't straight up lie about this. She clearly believes in him, which means if Aaron's not real, then she's a crazy person and that now she's snookered thousands of followers into believing along. I decided I should just go to Aaron directly. I asked my mom if he would take a meeting with me. She was down and she said Aaron was down. One snowy afternoon, we went for a walk in the woods behind our house and sat down to talk on a big old fallen tree. I had a list of questions. Should I ask them one at a time or. Or should I ask them all?

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

Probably ask them one at a time.

[Davey Rothbart]

Okay. First can I ask Aaron? What other kinds of humans has Aaron been? Start there.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

Start there.

[Davey Rothbart]

My mom leans back slightly and closes her eyes. She perches on the snowy log, breathing deeply and sitting completely still.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

I am arid. I have lived in every color of body. Male, female, Arctic climates and tropical, in deserts and wilderness, mountains, and so have you. But you don't remember. I do.

[Davey Rothbart]

Aaron says he last walked to earth in human form about 500 years ago in Thailand. In that lifetime he was a Buddhist meditation master, and my mom was one of his prized students. One night, a man attacked Aaron with a spear, and my mom gave her life to protect him. Aaron says he and my mom have been together in many lifetimes as teacher and student. In a couple of lifetimes, he's even been her father. I have a question for you, Aaron. Aaron, isn't it possible that my mom invented you because she felt so alone and isolated with her deafness?

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

I would not phrase it quite that way. First, I cannot prove that I'm real, and it's not necessary. Certainly she could have invented me. In my experience, that's not what happened. Because. Because I exist. Since it's not something one can prove either way, I tend to simply ask people whether she invented me or. I'm quoting You. The ideas that I offer come from someone. Are they useful to you? Forget me. Are the ideas useful to me?

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

And pause.

[Davey Rothbart]

Baseball. These are all baseball cards. Later that afternoon, Mike and I went up into the attic to look for some old pictures and things. Where do you think yours are?

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

Wait, what's this one?

[Davey Rothbart]

At one point, my mom came up to help. She started telling me about a weekend channeling workshop she gave a few years ago. She said that channeling is not some secret gift that even my brother Mike had channeled once. Mike channeled? Is that hereditary? I thought channeling skips a generation.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

No, I don't. My experience is that anybody can learn how to journal. As I said, it's like playing basketball. Doing it is easy. Doing it well is hard. Davey, dad was channeling too.

[Davey Rothbart]

Dad was channeling.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

No, true.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

Dad was channeling.

[Davey Rothbart]

You're pulling my. You're yanking.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

We had 20 people here and about 18 of them ended up channeling by the end of the weekend. Ask dad. Is Hal down there? Hal? Come on around here.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

What?

[Davey Rothbart]

AV fabric. Okay, a word about my dad. He's a real performer. The kind of dad who will improvise Gilbert and Sullivan songs with new lyrics. Always willing to entertain.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Did I have a channel?

[Davey Rothbart]

Yeah.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

Yeah, see? You remember John?

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Sure. I took the channel in class through your mother.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

You never told me about that.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Oh, yeah. I have a tape of it.

[Davey Rothbart]

Who'd you channel?

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

You say I channeled Mother. Who did he channel? I could probably do it again.

[Davey Rothbart]

Can you channel manga?

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Right now

[Davey Rothbart]

I'm asking Dad to channel manga. My dad stands there on the pull down attic steps and closes his eyes while my mom gets an increasingly worried look on her face.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

I would strongly suggest that you not to take TV up on that challenge. Not unless you sit down and meditate and get yourself into a stoop into dad.

[Davey Rothbart]

Just don't worry about it. She's crazy. She's channels.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

I think I'm feeling his presence.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

I'm asking for respect for the process.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Okay. I could sit down. If I sat down, I'd have to be more comfortable.

[Davey Rothbart]

I think my mom hoped that that would be the end of it. Hey, Big Papa. The next morning, I got my dad alone while he was shaving in the bathroom. How come mom wouldn't let you. How come mom wouldn't let you channel manga earlier?

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Here's my feeling about it. I think she felt that it wasn't sincere, but it was real. It was real.

[Davey Rothbart]

How about, could you do manga now? Can you try? I mean, I know sometimes you Feel him closer than others.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

I can do it. I feel his presence. I won't be able to shave. I'd have to stop shaving. Well, yeah, but I could do it. I feel him around. I have to close my eyes and kind of, like concentrate a little bit.

[Davey Rothbart]

Hello,

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

My name is Monga and I come from India. I'm here now. Now I'm speaking

[Davey Rothbart]

not to be disrespectful and not to focus on Manga's accent. But I just didn't find this as believable as my mom's channel. Still, though, there's my dad standing there at the sink in a bright green bathrobe, his glasses on and shaving cream all over his face. Channeling. Already this was turning into one of my favorite memories of my dad ever. Munga, this is Davey. And can I ask.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Davy is number two son born April 11, 1975. Right. 5 foot 11, 1 52, I believe. 142. I have these feelings about your physical appearance.

[Davey Rothbart]

Mungo was like one of those carnival barkers. They try and guess your exact height and weight or you win a giant pencil. Why didn't Aaron ever entertain like this?

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

I have no more to say. And peace to all human beings on planet Earth, you call it.

[Davey Rothbart]

I never really realized my dad was so cool with the whole spirit world thing. He was always a gracious host at all the meditation classes and channeling sessions. But sometimes he also seemed to resent how wrapped up in Eren and her work my mom had become. She was always going out of town to lead meditation retreats and workshops around the country. And I don't think he liked being home alone so much of the time. And sometimes my dad would get annoyed by all the students constantly coming in and out of the house. Honestly, I thought Aaron was just something he tolerated. But listening to him and Munga, I felt moved. Really? What could be a sweeter way for him to show acceptance of my mom's work than for him to channel his own spirit? Is Aaron just a part of you?

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

I have no idea. It's he. I don't experience him as a part of him.

[Davey Rothbart]

There were still a couple of questions I had left for my mom. I know Aaron has dictated entire books to her interpretations of ancient Buddhist writings. Scholars who've read them have been impressed with Erin's teachings. She's become a widely known and respected meditation teacher. Even the most established Buddhist bigwigs admit that the depth of her knowledge is astounding. But then there's sketchy things, too. Like one time When Aaron said the thing he missed most about being an actual human being was his taste of cognac. Aaron's last lifetime was supposedly more than 500 years ago. And I checked it out. Cognac was barely invented then, and the only people drinking it were a few dudes in France, not Buddhist monks in Thailand. And then there's the fact that Aaron says he can read minds and see the future, but then refuses to demonstrate these powers. Why won't he just prove himself? It's so easy. I have a number between 1 and 100.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

He says he won't play that game.

[Davey Rothbart]

So he's not real. Let's figure it aside, does he know the number? He doesn't have to say it. I just want him to know the number. Does he know it?

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

He says he is averting as us he's choosing not to look at.

[Davey Rothbart]

I'm begging him, please. I just want to know. And then. I mean, I know it doesn't matter. His teachings are pretty cool. It doesn't matter if he's real or not. But I just want to know. So just look.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Just.

[Davey Rothbart]

Aaron, I'm asking you for one second.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Just look.

[Davey Rothbart]

If you want to understand what having Aaron in our lives has really done for my family, here's something that happened while I was home to work on this story. We went out to dinner on Valentine's Day. My dad met us at the restaurant, and when he walked in, he said, happy Valentine's Day to my mom. But she had just turned away and didn't see him say it. My dad got kind of agitated, as though she was ignoring him by choice. He still hasn't fully gotten over her deafness. A minute later, he said something else to her, but now he was sore at her. And he didn't use sign language and barely moved his lips. My mom said, I can't understand you. And my dad, getting more upset, repeated himself even faster. Way too fast to lip read. This used to be how it would all start with them. My dad's anger at my mom's deafness would bring out her unhappiness over it. Soon they'd be shouting at each other. But Aaron's influence has changed everything. On Valentine's Day, when my dad started freaking out, my mom just smiled at him and shrugged like, this is your problem, not mine. Things don't escalate the way they did before Aaron came around. He's helped my mom discover a total sense of calm. Aaron came in peace, and that's what he brought us. Now, if Aaron hadn't come along.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

I think dad and I would been have been divorced. I'm not sure. Maybe not. I'm not sure.

[Davey Rothbart]

I understand why my mom believes in Aaron. As for me, I think believing in Aaron is a lot like believing in God. I have a hard time having an unswerving faith in something you can't see or prove exists. But I do have that kind of faith in my mom. That's why I believe in Aaron. You. You'll have to make your own decision.

[Ira Glass]

Davey Rothbard is the creator of Found magazine and the author of a book of essays called My Heart is an Idiot. He first broadcast this many years ago. Davey's mom and dad are now in their 80s and still going strong, as are Aaron and Manga. In fact, Aaron celebrates the big 2100 this summer. Now here's Davey's dad using his improvisatory powers.

[Davey Rothbart]

Hey Pete, hurry down. Dad's gonna sing.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

If you're a God fearing man and you're trying to answer all the personal questions that you can, I suggest you call Aaron. Aaron is the man that can solve your problems. Do you have any today? It's a way to live in the world today. Can you solve your problems? If you can't, let me remind you, there's a wonderful spirit in the world and his sayings are good as gold. Some are modern and some are pretty old. So my response to you Coming up,

[Ira Glass]

the difficult task of running for Congress against someone with your exact same name and a seven year old explains a few things to a grown ass man in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues,

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Just American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Each week, of course, we choose some theme, bring you a variety of different kinds of stories on that theme. Today's show is a rerun from years ago. The Other man. Stories in which some outsider arrives on the scene, disturbing the normal orbits of the planets, disrupting how everybody deals with everybody else. We have arrived at the second act of our show, Act 2, the Jackson 2. So Jesse Jackson was a national figure for decades, protege of Martin Luther King, two time presidential candidate, somebody who would show up on the news all the time. So imagine for a second what it would mean to grow up with the name Jesse Jackson if you weren't the Jesse Jackson. Okay, you with me so far? Now imagine if you grew up with the name Jesse Jackson and you were Jesse Jackson's son and you wanted to go into public service of some kind. Your dad would forever be the other man in the room. His shadow would always be there, his presence an invisible boulder in any room you walk into, run for office. There are going to be some people who love you, some people who dismiss you because of your dad, whose name you share. Okay, so that is the situation that Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Found himself in back in 2002 when we first broadcast today's show with this story. A story that's a kind of, I don't know, a classic kind of hard, knuckled, old fashioned Chicago political brawl. Okay, so at the time, Jesse L. Jackson was a congressman for Illinois, second district in Chicago. And after 34 years of living with the name Jesse L. Jackson Jr. And seven years of living as congressman Jesse L. Jackson Jr. Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Was in a meeting with campaign workers when somebody told him about this strange turn of events.

[Jesse L. Jackson Jr.]

And he said, have you heard the news? Have you heard the news? I said, no, what's the news? He said, At 11:59, the last minute of filing for Congress in the second district of Illinois, you now have another Jesse L. Jackson running against You, I

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

think at first people were questioning whether there really was such a person.

[Ira Glass]

They didn't realize that there was an actual question of if he even existed.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Yes.

[Ira Glass]

Mark Brown covered all this for the Chicago Sun Times. He says that the other Jesse L. Jackson turned out to be a retired truck driver who lived in a suburb called Robbins. 68 years old, no previous political experience. At first we couldn't even find him. He was ducking everybody. And then they produced him for a

[Davey Rothbart]

little dog and pony show where he

[Ira Glass]

came out and of the microphones and read a statement that said he really does exist.

[Davey Rothbart]

Indeed, you know, he was a real

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

person and he, you know, he's just

[Davey Rothbart]

a regular guy who clearly had somehow

[Ira Glass]

been recruited to get into this race. But recruited by whom? Well, nobody was admitting anything, but for weeks news reports were featuring gleeful quotes from two local politicians, Robert and William Shaw. They were twin brothers, old school operators who came up through the rank and file of the black Democratic organization, who reportedly resented the relative ease with which Jesse Jr. Became a congressman. After all, he started at the top. It was his very first elected office. When he won that position, he beat out a candidate that they had supported for the job. The Shaw brothers called Jackson a brat and a crybaby. And in 2002, as soon as this other Jesse L. Jackson appeared on the ballot, they were merrily telling reporters and anybody who would listen that it only seemed fair that Congressman Jackson realized that he wasn't the only one who could run for office on his father's name.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

The only way he got in public office is through his daddy's name. But this other Jackson have had the name long before this young boy had it.

[Ira Glass]

The congressman, Senator William Shaw, talked to me from his office.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

You know, I'm so happy, looking back at history that Andrew Jackson didn't come along in this time. He never would have been the President if it had been left up to this guy.

[Ira Glass]

Wait, wait. Andrew Jackson. Explain what you mean.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

You know Andrew Jackson, of course, he was one of the presidents.

[Ira Glass]

Right, right. Of course he's on the, he's on the money.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

But listen to Congressman Jackson. Anybody with the Jackson name, he feel as though that they shouldn't run. This guy's out of his mind. He thinks he have a patent on the Jackson name.

[Ira Glass]

From the Congressman's point of view, this is all pretty much exactly what you do not want people talking about in the newspapers and on television again. Imagine you have spent your whole life trying to get out from under the shadow of that other Jesse Jackson. Your father and now there is yet another Jesse Jackson. And the main story about your reelection is not what you've accomplished for your district or what you hope to accomplish, but once again, did you get your job on your daddy's name?

[Jesse L. Jackson Jr.]

You know, and that's, that's for someone who takes the process very seriously, it has been annoying. In the last six years, I have had eight press conferences. Two of them have been on this subject. To give you some idea that I don't run to the media to show you some difference between me and my father. My dad might have had eight yesterday. I'm not anti press. I'm prepared to do press. But when I do press, I want it to be about issues of concern to my constituents. And so rather than running a race on a third airport in Pieton or discussing o' Hare expansion or how to get more jobs, I'm caught in a fight with people who aren't even running for Congress in my race.

[Ira Glass]

The people he refers to, of course, are the Shaw brothers. They deny having anything to do with Jesse Jackson of Robbins, the truck driver. But Congressman Jackson started investigating the petition drive that put Jesse Jackson of Robbins onto the ballot. He found that many people who signed the petitions had been told specifically that they were signing for the Congressman, who enjoys a 90% approval rating in the district. Further investigations showed that those petitions were notarized by a political ally of the Shahs. The 4400 signatures were gathered by men who came from a homeless shelter, one of whom has testified that they got the jobs gathering signatures. One day when Senator Shah's chief of staff came by and took them to the Shah's office at 144th Street. In an affidavit, this man said that both William and Robert Shaw were there in the room and sent them out to get the signatures.

[Jesse L. Jackson Jr.]

Not only there and sent them out, but they're eating catfish and sent them out and specifically said, go help the Congressman. We don't get along with the Congressman. We don't care much for the Congressman, but we're going to help him get back on the ballot.

[Ira Glass]

Now the Congressman is saying that he's got affidavits from people who went around and got signatures to get this other Jesse Jackson, the one from Robbins, onto the ballot. He says he's got affidavits from some of those people saying that they met, they were organized in Shaw headquarters. What do you all say to that?

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

I don't say anything, you know, anything might have happened. You know, I have hundreds of people in my headquarters coming in and out. We're involved in a campaign here, and to my knowledge, I don't know anything about that. And I think that the congressman, you know, he's drinking some water, probably out of D.C. we have better water than that in Chicago.

[Ira Glass]

Wait, wait. And what does the water from D.C. do to you?

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

The water is making him delirious. That's what I think.

[Ira Glass]

For a while, there were not only two Jesse L. Jacksons on the ballot. The Shaw Brothers officially supported a candidate in the primary named Yvonne Williams. And at some point, another Williams turned up on the ballot as well. Anthony Williams. And of course, this happens on ballots all over the country. If you're running against an Irish politician, you get another Irish name on the ballot. If you're running against a woman, you get another woman. If you're running against Jesse Jackson, you get another Jesse Jackson. Again, William Shaw.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Yeah. That has happened many, many times. And people just take it with a grain of salt. It's not such a big deal. Yeah.

[Ira Glass]

I was wondering if you think we should think it's tragic or just funny.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

Well, I don't know. I guess it's funny to everybody but the Congress.

[Jesse L. Jackson Jr.]

Well, it is kind of funny.

[Ira Glass]

Again, Congressman Jackson, but there are political

[Jesse L. Jackson Jr.]

forces in my congressional district that are notorious for election shenanigans, for deceiving voters, and even having the reputation of stealing voters.

[Ira Glass]

And after deploying seven lawyers, two private eyes, and $150,000 to investigate how Jesse L. Jackson of Robbins got onto the ballot, the Congressman pursued legal action. He tried to prove that the Shaw Brothers intentionally deceived voters, intentionally tried to convince voters that they were signing petitions for the congressman when, in fact, they were signing for the other Jesse L. Jackson. If he could prove that, it would move this entire incident out of the category of political prank and into the rather more serious category of political fraud, which is a criminal offense.

[Jesse L. Jackson Jr.]

Rabbit hunting is fun until the rabbit gets the gun. And so what happens when you come up against another big bear in politics who has the resources and the capability of pursuing it to the nth degree of the law and starts demanding justice? And I saw the same Eddie Murphy movie that they saw, and I'm determined not to let it happen in our district. The Eddie Murphy movie being the distinguished gentleman, a gentleman who gets elected to Congress by the name of Jefferson Johnson after the congressman dies, his name is Jeff Johnson, he runs for Congress and he gets elected. He's a felon, by the way.

[Ira Glass]

You think actually they saw the movie?

[Jesse L. Jackson Jr.]

I'm pretty sure someone saw it. And I think what's also becoming clear is that many people forgot how the movie ended, and that is that some people went to jail.

[Ira Glass]

When all this finally got to court, the Cook county judge refused to bring in the Shaws to testify under oath. Congressman Jackson's lawyers then threatened to make William Shaw a defendant in the case, that is to sue him directly. And not long after that, after several weeks on the ballot, Jesse L. Jackson of Robbins dropped out of the race. Congressman Jackson went on to win that election by a huge margin and five more after that until he ended up in prison on charges of improperly using campaign funds for personal purchases. His political troll, William shaw, died in 2008. Jackson served his time and just this year ran once again for his old congressional seat, though this time voters did not come out for the name Jesse Jackson. Jackson lost. Act 3 Mr. Fun we have this story on what it is like to intrude on a perfectly happy, perfectly idyllic family of two when one of the two falls in love with you and the other most definitely does not. Heather O' Neill and Jonathan Goldstein explain what happens.

[Heather O'Neill]

I was 20 years old when Arizona was born. I thought I could just put her in a little suitcase and that would be her bed. I figured now that I'd given birth, the hard part was over. I moved into a big building over a laundromat where they didn't ask for any references. People left their apartment doors open and waved to you from their couches when you walked down the hall. The apartment was our own cozy little universe of porcelain dolls, posters of Hong Kong, and tiny, colorful paper umbrellas. It was a universe of two plates, two cups and two toothbrushes until I met Johnny.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I was introduced to Heather by some friends over drinks. I was impressed by how fast she drank her beer, and she was impressed by the fact that there was only one arm on my eyeglasses. From the side, you look like a cartoon doctor, she said. She looked like she was from some bygone era where women worked with their hair tied up in kerchiefs on assembly lines to help the war effort. By all of this, I mean to say that I was smitten by her. I knew that Heather had a little girl, and I also knew that I wasn't very good with children. Ironically, my job at the time was teaching after school magic classes to kids in elementary schools. I wasn't that great a magician to begin with, and kids made me nervous. My hands were always sweaty and I was always dropping coins all over the place. One time I was really losing the attention of a classroom of sixth graders while teaching them the jumping rubber band. So I told them that if they listened quietly at the end of the class, I would walk through a wall. Immediately they all shut up. At the end of the class I took about two full minutes where I just stared at the wall at the back of the classroom. If any of them said a word, I would reprimand them for breaking my concentration and start all over again. Finally, I slowly started walking towards the wall. The way the kids were looking at me, all open mouthed and expectant, I almost felt like I could actually pull this off. When I smacked into the wall, I turned to them and said, you didn't really think I could walk through a wall, did you? They all looked at the wall. Then they looked at me. Then slowly, reluctantly, they all shook their heads no. I hoped I would have better luck with Heather's daughter.

[Heather O'Neill]

Over drink, Zaya told Johnny that Arizona had shoved our TV set off the coffee table. And now, surprise, surprise, here he was, carefully winding his way up the staircase to our house with an old RCA in his arms, the old fashioned antenna still attached and dragging behind him on the floor. When he came in, Arizona was over at the neighbors, a Greek family who liked to give her a good bath every now and then. It was a family event for them with shish kebabs and an uncle who played accordion on the clothes lid of the toilet. As me and Johnny sat on the couch, Arizona walked into the apartment, freshly scrubbed, smelling of baby powder and Greek food, with four bows in her hair. Johnny kept clapping his hands together and going on about how she looked just like Shirley Temple. She stopped dead in her tracks and gave me a confused look. Before he left, he asked me if I wanted to come to his house for dinner that weekend and I said sure. I called my sister and asked if she would babysit. She begged me not to have another boyfriend. In other words, no babysitting. So I took Arizona along on my date with Johnny.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I stood on my front steps waiting for her to get there and when I saw her coming down the street pushing a stroller, I wondered if I had any juice in the house. We sat down at my kitchen table and I brought out a big pot of curried vegetables and rice. Arizona climbed up on the table, opened the lid and wrinkled her nose. I picked her up and put her back down in her chair, but as soon as I did she would get right back up and roll around all over the place most of the time while pointing at me with an angry look on her face. She wasn't like Shirley Temple at all. She was like the Muppet Baby, Joe Pesci.

[Heather O'Neill]

After dinner, Johnny walked into his living room and saw the word Arizona written in pin with the backwards R on his desk. At first I was sort of delighted. It was the first time she'd ever written her name without me coaching her. But I kind of felt for Johnny, whose apartment was all full of neatly arranged furniture and superhero figurines that stayed exactly where they had been placed. Johnny walked around the apartment with his head down and an expression on his face like he was a seven year old reviewing times tables in his head. He tried to ease into our lives with grace. After the first time he slept over, he got up in the morning before Arizona woke. He put on his jacket and went outside into the hallway and knocked on the front door, pretending he had just arrived. We don't want to damage the child's psyche, johnny said. Arizona's bedroom was closest to the front door, so she got up and let him in. Hi, he said. I was just in the neighborhood. He walked in without shoes and his belt undone. He dropped onto the couch and fell back asleep. Arizona looked at him. Why do you even come by? She said angrily, if all you're going to do is go to sleep? Johnny and I had very different ideas about the environment in which one should raise a kid. The stove needs to be fixed, he complained. You can't cook meals over a hot plate. Razzo Rizzo cooks meals over a hot plate. And who in God's name puts laundry out on the line at midnight? Children need discipline. They like it was a favorite banner of Project Goldstein.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Heather called all of my domestic tips bourgeois. How is cleaning the crisper bourgeois? I asked. How in the world is keeping your child from running naked through the halls of the apartment building wearing my boots a symptom of the bourgeoisie?

[Heather O'Neill]

Arizona could tell that Johnny was trying to change things and everything between them became a battle of wills. She would reach over and squeeze the Indiglo button on his watch and he would chastise her, telling her that Indiglo was used only in emergency situations, like if you were in a blackout or stuck in a cave. But as soon as his head was turned, she'd push the button again.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In what I considered a bit of cultural exchange. I had to sit on the couch and listen to the soundtrack from Fiddler on the Roof. Arizona, all of 6 years old, turned to me in the middle of if I Was a Rich man and said, that's what you do all day long, you bitty bitty bum. She paused for a moment, and then, just to make sure the point wasn't being lost on me, she added, that means you're lazy. When the three of us walked down the street, Arizona would say, my mom's shadow is longer than yours. That means you're short.

[Heather O'Neill]

She was starting to like him less and less. One day he made her list all the people that she loved most in order. And who do you love next best? He would ask hopefully. And the next and the next. He came in at number 19. He actually ranked below the neighbor's dog and the plumber who drank two gallon bottles of Pepsi while he worked and let Arizona hand him wrenches.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Every time I tried to kiss Arizona, she would pull back, insisting that my beard was too scratchy. It got so that I was shaving twice a day, but still she would wave me off. I would stand in front of the mirror like an obsessive compulsive, desperately scraping the blade across my cheeks, the word scratchy ringing in my head like the ravens nevermore. One time we had some friends over at Heather's and someone started playing the guitar and Arizona started to dance. It struck me as one of the most beautiful things I had ever seen. Everyone stood around and clapped their hands while Arizona spun around with her arms over her head. Before I knew it, I was walking over and taking her hands to dance with her. I wasn't the type to dance with kids, or to even dance at all for that matter, but I just couldn't help myself. When I touched her, she whipped her hands away and stopped cold. I retreated back to my seat as the music continued to play. All the while Arizona stared me down like her prison bitch.

[Heather O'Neill]

He tried buying her love with really inappropriate gifts, things that he liked that he thought she might learn to like. He bought them matching wallets and a mood ring that wouldn't fit her for at least another five years. He got her a pop up book of nightmare analysis that included a chapter on giving birth to aliens. In the Best of Times. She treated him as something that made me happy and she quietly tolerated him like the way she sat through a Hitchcock documentary at the museum. But then sometimes she would just explode. One day at Burger King, he refused to let me bring her hamburger back to the counter for a third time to ask for even more pickles, and she started screaming. She pounded the hamburger with her fists. I can't stand him, she said. Why did we have to go out with him today? Tell me why. He's my Friend, I said, and you have to pretend to like him. She had a little friend who would come over and bite his own toes while they watched tv and I never said a thing. I figured it was the least she could do for me. One day I was trying to finish my dad's income tax and Arizona was bored. She was whacking the wind chimes with a broom. She was all out of ideas. When Johnny asked her if she wanted to take a walk with him, she sighed and got her jacket. Before they left, he explained that the plan was to walk to a bank to cash his check and then find a barber that would cut his hair for a reason. Price.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

We were walking along when Arizona came to an abrupt stop and so I stopped too. She looked up at me and in this tone that I had never heard her use before, she said, this isn't what you do to have a good time. It was like she had summoned up every little bit of maturity she had and some she didn't even have. And she used her words to let me know something that she felt was really important for me to know that I just wasn't any fun. And she told it to me in this way that was like maybe it just wasn't something I knew and that maybe I just had to be told and then everything would be okay. Like maybe it could all be that easy. We went back to the apartment and got our bathing suits. Arizona wanted to go to the beach. Arizona treated me like I had never been to a beach before. This is sand, she said, and people like to dig in it. Beside the sand is the water, but it's not the drinking kind. She treated me like she was nursing me back to health. For my part, I tried my best to live up to what a six year old's vision of fun would be. I bought every single thing the vendors had to offer. I even got us these overcooked, mushy corn cobs on a stick that were smothered in butter and mayonnaise. Mayonnaise. And when she went into the water past her knees, I bit my fist and kept my panic to myself. At the end of the day, Arizona persuaded me to buy a watermelon that some men were selling off the back of a truck. As we rode the bus back home, tired, looking out the windows in silence, Arizona suddenly turned to me and said, why did I ever marry you? I sat there completely tongue tied on so many levels. Tell me why, she demanded over and over, getting louder and louder, until the six or seven people on the bus turned to hear how I was going to defend myself? Why did I ever marry you? All the way home the question just sat there, big and awkward like the watermelon on my lap that we would have for dessert that night.

[Heather O'Neill]

Around that time, Johnny in Arizona invented this game where they pretend to be two old time vaudeville partners who can't get along. She is always the wiser, burnt out one and he is always the mincing bootlick who wants to please the producers and the audience. They pretend they're backstage yelling at each other as the audience hollers for them to come out. Let's get out there. Johnny yells. They're waiting for us. They paid a lot of money for those seats. We'll be sued, damn it. We'll be finished in this town. This is my last show, arizona says every time, shaking her weary head. And then I'm through. I can't do this anymore. They come out into the hallway. Nervously. They stand in front of the record player. Arizona on top of a Webster's dictionary to be taller. Johnny starts singing A Bicycle Built for Two and Arizona is supposed to be the bicycle bell and sing ding Ding. But she doesn't. Johnny starts the song over again. Still, Arizona ignores her cue, staring blankly ahead in the throes of a showbiz meltdown. The audience starts throwing tomatoes in. Arizona ducks behind Johnny. He holds out his arms to protect her from the crowd. She crouches in back of him, laughing her head off as the angry mob covers him from head to toe in imaginary rotten fruit.

[Ira Glass]

Heather o' Neill is the author of many books. Her latest is the the Capital of Dreams. Jonathan Goldstein is the host of the podcast Heavyweight and Arizona o' Neal these days, all grown up. Her debut graphic novel is called Opioids and Organs.

[Davey Rothbart]

Fall is here.

[Erin Rothbart (Davey's Mom)]

Hear the yell Back to school, ring the bell Brand new shoes Walking loose clad I can tell that we are gonna be friends.

[Davey Rothbart]

I can tell that we are gonna be friends.

[Ira Glass]

Well, today's program was produced by Jonathan Goldstein and myself with Alex Bloomberg, Wendy Dore and Star Lee Kine. Senior producer for today's show was Julie Snyder. Elizabeth Meister ran our website at the time. Production help from Todd Baughman and Maria Schell. Help on today's rerun from Mike Comite, Adrian Lilly, Molly Marcelo, Catherine Raimondo and Stone Nelson. Special thanks to Mark Brown for helping us with our Jesse Jackson story. For the rerun. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by prx, the Public Radio Exchange. If you like our program and want to help us to make it the way we have been making it. You can become a this American Life partner. You get bonus episodes. You listen ad free. You get a special greatest hits archive in your podcast feed. We hope it's great for you. It helps us. You can do [e-mail] LifePartners. That link is also in the show notes. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Mr. Tory Malatea, who describes what it was like the first few years hearing us talk about him like we do here at the end of the program.

[Mike Rothbart (Davey's Brother)]

I think one way to characterize it would be just to show how tough it was. It was

[Heather O'Neill]

Eric.

[Ira Glass]

I'm Eric Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American Life.

[Sarah]

Next week on the podcast of this American Life, the most famous black American in the 1950s was Paul Robeson, an icon of the Harlem Renaissance, an actor, activist, singer, athlete, family man. Little known fact about Paul one day he said to his wife, we both

[Ira Glass]

said, we want an unconventional relationship. Why don't we open up our marriage?

[Sarah]

The messiness of our ancestors? Next week on the podcast or on your local public radio station.

[Heather O'Neill]

This message comes from Midi Health co founders Joanna Strober and Dr. Kathleen Jordan discuss why they started a virtual care platform to empower and educate women in perimenopause and menopause.

[Davey Rothbart]

Historically, perimenopause and menopause have been very stigmatizing. So people haven't wanted to admit that they are in perimenopause and menopause as though it was like embarrassing, which is insane. It's just something happening to your body. So one of the things that we're trying to do is destigmatize these topics. Perimenopause and menopause are just women's health. So we try to educate women all the time.

[Heather O'Neill]

Maybe it's your hormones and we would

[Davey Rothbart]

like to help you.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And I find women actually want to talk about it. It's one of the things they always comment at MIDI is that they finally feel heard. One of the ways that women find MIDI is actually from other women and I think it's meaningful.

[Heather O'Neill]

Midi Health committed to helping women in midlife with perimenopause and menopause care. Accessible via telehealth [e-mail] this message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] Switch taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.