843: A Little Bit of Power

Summary

Summary of "This American Life" Episode 843: "A Little Bit of Power"

Introduction

In episode 843 of This American Life, titled "A Little Bit of Power," host Ira Glass delves into the nuanced dynamics of political influence wielded by ordinary voters. This episode explores how regular citizens, particularly a group of Arab American voters in Michigan, navigated the complexities of the Democratic National Convention (DNC) to influence presidential endorsements and policies amidst the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

The Context: Power Dynamics in Crisis

The episode opens with a poignant depiction of meteorologists grappling with the immense power and responsibility during Hurricane Milton. Ira Glass illustrates how individuals with limited authority can make significant impacts in critical moments:

"Fate and circumstance put these meteorologists into a situation where they could use the little bit of power they have to try to alert people and hopefully save lives." (01:48)

This scenario serves as a metaphor for the broader theme of the episode: how individuals or small groups can exert influence in high-stakes environments.

The Uncommitted Voters Movement in Michigan

Transitioning from natural disasters to political turbulence, Ira Glass introduces the story of Arab American voters in Michigan. These voters, primarily residing in Dearborn—the largest city in the U.S. with an Arab American majority—felt disenfranchised by President Biden's support for Israel amid the war in Gaza. Determined to effect change, they organized a movement to cast "uncommitted" votes during the Democratic primary as a form of protest.

"These Democrats wanted to signal their displeasure with the bombings and the deaths of so many Palestinian civilians with US Bombs and US Support." (07:45)

The movement swiftly gained traction, with 100,000 voters in Michigan choosing to vote uncommitted—a tenfold increase from their initial goal of 10,000 votes.

Abbas Alawiya’s Efforts at the Democratic National Convention

At the heart of the movement is Abbas Alawiya, a 30-year-old Democrat from Dearborn with a rich background in activism and policy. Alawiya aims to leverage the uncommitted delegates to influence Vice President Kamala Harris's stance on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

During the convention, Alawiya actively engages with the DNC officials and the Harris campaign to secure a Palestinian speaker on the main stage. Despite his earnest efforts, he faces significant resistance:

"We are asking for our voices not to be suppressed... Call me if you change your mind." (28:12)

Alawiya's impassioned plea during a press conference underscores the frustration and desperation of the movement:

"We can't have people think that people... have to come out and vote." (37:28)

His interactions reveal the tension between grassroots activism and established political machinery, highlighting the challenges ordinary voters face in seeking meaningful representation.

The Aftermath: Community Meetings and Election Implications

Following the convention, the movement confronts internal conflicts and diminishing returns. Alawiya organizes community meetings in Dearborn to rally support and strategize for the upcoming election. However, the lack of concrete policy concessions from the Harris campaign leads to disillusionment among some members.

"Our movement number one cannot endorse Vice President Harris... We oppose a Donald Trump presidency whose agenda includes plans to accelerate the killing in Gaza." (43:16)

The community grapples with strategic dilemmas: whether to continue supporting Harris without achieving their policy goals or consider alternative avenues such as third-party voting, which Alawiya vehemently opposes.

Alawiya's personal struggles are poignantly illustrated through his conversations with family members, emphasizing the emotional toll of political activism:

"You stand with my people, you are not gonna see my vote." (53:16)

Conclusion: The Struggle for Representation and Influence

"A Little Bit of Power" concludes by reflecting on the broader implications of the movement's efforts. Despite their best intentions, the uncommitted voters' inability to secure a policy change or a speaker at the DNC raises questions about the efficacy of such grassroots initiatives within the existing political framework.

"If we don't have it together and... we will not vote for him in November." (08:06)

Ultimately, the episode underscores the complexities of political influence, the challenges faced by marginalized communities in achieving representation, and the delicate balance between maintaining principles and pragmatic electoral strategies.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Abbas Alawiya on the significance of their movement:

  "I think all of these guys, but I think it's gonna backfire, it lost more votes for Harris." (50:20)

• Reflections on coalition divides:

  "That issue, the Israel issue, divides the Democratic coalition." (15:14)

• On the emotional impact of the movement's struggles:

  "The entire Middle east is done." (37:41)

Final Thoughts

Episode 843 of This American Life offers a compelling exploration of how ordinary citizens attempt to wield political power within a vast and often unresponsive system. Through the lens of the uncommitted voters in Michigan and the tireless efforts of Abbas Alawiya, the episode captures the hopes, frustrations, and relentless pursuit of representation by those who seek to influence national policy from the grassroots level.

Transcript

[Ira Glass]

Support for this American life comes from Indeed. People are driven by the search for better. But when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search. Match with Indeed. Use Indeed for scheduling, screening and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster. Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com American terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. A quick warning There are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org maybe you saw this video this past week, a veteran meteorologist in Florida, John Morales, on live TV talking about the power of Hurricane Milton as it was still approaching the state. He was reading the barometric pressure numbers and it just got to him. He choked up. It has dropped. It has dropped 50 millibars in 10 hours.

[Ben Terras]

I apologize.

[Ira Glass]

This is just horrific. He wasn't the only meteorologist who seemed pushed to the limits trying to communicate the scale and intensity of Hurricane Milton, Noah Bergren, who's on TV in Orlando, declared in a tweet, this is nothing short of astronomical. I'm at a loss for words to meteorologically describe to you the storm's small eye in intensity. This is now the fourth strongest hurricane ever recorded by pressure on this side of the world. He would have corrected that to the fifth strongest. This hurricane is nearing the mathematical limit of what Earth's atmosphere over this ocean water can produce. Reading that, you get the feeling of somebody trying their hardest to summon words that would do the job to fully warn people, evacuate, get to safety. Fate and circumstance put these meteorologists into a situation where they could use the little bit of power they have to try to alert people and hopefully save lives. That kind of thing, where somebody has a small amount of power and then something happens, some moment arrives where they really can make a difference. It sometimes happens in politics, and when it does, somebody who is not usually in the limelight, somebody who's not a household name, can end up with immense power. Events shake out so that random political figures suddenly have the entire weight of a country's future in their hands. Classic example. I think of Brad Raffensperger, Secretary of State in Georgia, who famously got a phone call from then President Trump asking him after the last presidential election to find some votes or throw out some votes just to somehow overturn the results in Georgia. So look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have. And flipping the state is a great testament to our country. Raffensperger, of course, refused. There was another example like that. A couple weeks ago, Nebraska lawmakers were debating whether to switch the way Nebraska gives out its Electoral College votes in presidential elections. Nebraska doesn't use the winner take all system that most of the states use, which means that it's possible that Kamala Harris could win one Electoral College vote from Nebraska, which conceivably could decide the coming election. In fact, that is such a real possibility in this very close election that Donald Trump personally got on the phone to convince lawmakers to make the change. And in the end, it all came down to one state senator, Mike McDonnell, a Republican, actually, who dug in his heels and said no and ended up, it felt like in every newspaper and news broadcast in the country, this idea.

[Ben Terras]

Of changing it with 42 days. It's like we're in a football game. You call a timeout and say, I want to switch the value of a field goal from three points to four points. That's just not the way we do things. That's not the Nebraska way.

[Ira Glass]

Today on our show, we have the story of a bunch of people. And fascinatingly, unlike these other examples, most of them are not professional politicians. These are just regular voters who suddenly find themselves in this kind of special political circumstance where they have a little bit of power to nudge and maybe to decide the election in one of the key battleground states this year. And lots of eyes are on them. And there's been a ton of suspense these past few months for how it would all play out. From WB Easy Chicago, it's this American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Stay with us. Support for this American Life comes from Indeed. People are driven by the search for better. But when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search match with Indeed. Use Indeed for scheduling, screening, and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster. Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com American terms and conditions apply. Need to hire, you need. Indeed. Support for this American life comes from BetterHelp. It's important to take time to show gratitude towards others, but it's equally important to thank yourself. Life throws a lot of curveballs, and being grateful isn't always easy. Therapy can help remind you of all that you're worthy of and all that you do have. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp [e-mail] tal today to get 10% off your first month. Throughline is a podcast where we tell.

[Ben Terras]

Stories about a place shrouded in mystery, the past. And to really understand it, we take you there.

[Zoe Chase]

Something happened to our collective psyche after the atom bomb.

[Ira Glass]

Listen to hear us reopen stories from the past and find clues to the.

[Ben Terras]

Present on Throughline, the history podcast from NPR.

[Ira Glass]

DisAmerican Life these last weeks before the election, so much of the fight for the presidency is coming down to battles for individual slices of voters who can help throw swing states to one of the candidates or the other. So campaigns are targeting college educated suburbanites here or young male voters there. And there's a particularly dramatic example of this playing out with a huge chunk of voters in Michigan. Michigan's a key state for Kamala Harris to win. She doesn't have many paths to the presidency without it. And Michigan right now is a complete toss up. So back in February, a reliable bunch of Democratic voters started to shake loose from the Democratic coalition. These were Arab American voters and other voters who were upset about President Biden's support for Israel. Right now in the war in Gaza, there's a huge Arab American population in the cities and suburbs around Detroit. Dearborn's the largest city in the country with an Arab American majority. And in February, these Democrats, who, by the way, do not want Trump, they see him as even more pro Israel than Biden. These Democrats wanted to signal their displeasure with the bombings and the deaths of so many Palestinian civilians with US Bombs and US Support. So back during the Democratic primary, they quickly organized in just a few weeks a campaign to encourage Democrats to not vote for Biden as the nominee as a kind of protest vote. They would instead vote uncommitted. They said they hoped to get 10,000 votes like that. They chose 10,000 because that's the number of votes that Donald Trump won Michigan with in 2016, 10,000. They did so much better than that. To their own astonishment, 100,000 people voted uncommitted.

[Ben Terras]

It's these voters who shook up the Democratic primary. If he doesn't get it together and.

[Zoe Chase]

Change what he's doing, we will not vote for him in November.

[Ben Terras]

Overnight, an extremely unusual watch party for.

[Ira Glass]

Voters who cast their ballots not for.

[Ben Terras]

A candidate, but for uncommitted in protest.

[Zoe Chase]

Of President Biden's handling of the Israel Hamas war.

[Ira Glass]

100,000 Democratic votes in the primary with so many people that under Democratic Party rules, the party had to give these uncommitted voters delegates to the Democratic National Convention in Chicago. There were two from Michigan and about 30 from other states. Once inside the hall, these delegates could try to make deals, try to influence Mideast policy. After all, Kamala Harris needs these voters, particularly in Michigan. Michigan had enough uncommitted voters, arguably to swing it for her or against her. So the question was, what could they get in exchange for their votes? Ben Terras, a reporter with the Washington Post, and our producer Zoe Chase have been following one of the leaders of the uncommitted movement in Michigan for months, Abbas Alawiya. Abbas is a Democrat who's had many jobs working for the party. He very much wants Harris to win. Ben and Zoe watched him try to broker some deal at the convention and afterwards that would satisfy the uncommitted voters and deliver them to Harris. It's been hard. It really could affect the election results. Here's Ben.

[Zoe Chase]

We meet up with Abbas Alloway the day before the convention starts. Abbas is someone I've known for years as a reporter. He was chief of staff for Corey Bush, one of the members of the squad. I've met a lot of chiefs over the years covering Capitol Hill, and Abbas wasn't like any of them. He was young, barely 30 years old, and he didn't stick to operating in the shadows, commenting off the record and staying out of the spotlight. He'd be at protests, carrying a bullhorn, and he was unmissable. Six foot six, built like an NFL lineman, and he was fine standing out. He also knew how to maneuver behind the scenes and that really did catch my eye. He was a kind of insider, outsider type, part policy guy, part activist. And I hadn't seen a lot of guys like that before, so I stayed in touch. Recently he left Washington and moved back to Michigan where he grew up. And there he got swept up into the uncommitted movement, which is how he ended up here in Chicago for the convention. He's an uncommitted delegate. Being a delegate, that gets him back inside. Back among the Democratic power brokers, the black Toyota Highlander.

[Abbas Alawiya]

I think this is us right now. Abbas is standing on a street corner waiting for an Uber to take him to the convention center for a cable TV interview. Bunch of roads are closed for security reasons. No one knows which ones. City's gridlocked. Abbas is unruffled. When the Uber arrives. He folds himself into the car and starts chatting with the driver.

[Ben Terras]

How do you say your name? Is it? You are Abbas, right? Yes, sir.

[Abbas Alawiya]

We're heading to the drop off spot for the convention this week.

[Ben Terras]

Abbas. You going to Malcolm X college? That's correct. Will they allow us to get closer? That is a question. Well, we're going to find out together, aren't we? Where are you from? I'm from Togo. Togo? Yeah. My dad lived in Togo. Really? Yeah.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Abbas has a way of connecting with anyone he's talking to. It's partly why he became the de facto spokesperson for the uncommitted delegates. People just like him. He seems sincere.

[Ben Terras]

What's the capital city? Lome. Lome?

[Ira Glass]

Yeah.

[Ben Terras]

He was in Lome. Let me see. Is your father a car dealer? He's not a car dealer. He has a brother who is, though you can probably guess. My father's Lebanese. I have a lot of Lebanese friends, so when I saw the name of Abbas, I say I'm going for Lebanese. There's a lot of Lebanese. I mean in West Africa, in general. All of them sell cars.

[Zoe Chase]

Abbas is Lebanese. He lived there till he was six. And he's still got a lot of family that lives in southern Lebanon on Israel's border. When he was 15, he was visiting his grandmother. When war broke out with Israel in 2006, he was forced to spend days sheltering in a basement while Israeli bombs were falling all around him, some of them made in the us. He was scared for his life and he talks about it a lot. He says this is what activated him politically. It made him want to get inside the US government to make some kind of change that way.

[Ben Terras]

Abbas is a Lebanese. His wish is my wish. I appreciate that, my brother.

[Zoe Chase]

We jump out of the car. An escort from MSNBC meets us at the back of an hours long line of journalists and other attendees. We get to skip to the front and we're hustled into the convention center so a boss can make his TV appearance. The arena is bumpin'there's. Music blasting and delegates practicing the roll call vote.

[Ben Terras]

Kamala Harris.

[Abbas Alawiya]

A big part of why he's here is to talk to the press. It's a way to put pressure on the Harris campaign. There are TV studios set up all over the place. We watch him talk to PBS and.

[Ben Terras]

MSNBC that uncommitted voters and uncommitted delegates like me want to support Vice President Harris, but need her to support a policy that stops sending weapons to the Israeli military that is using them, that is using those weapons to kill people we love to kill.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Abbas tells us this is their ultimate goal, a policy change. But there are other ways the Harris team could respond to them.

[Ben Terras]

We're actually not asking her to Adopt the full policy that, like, every single one of my cousins would want her to adopt, which is a full arms embargo. But we need her to move in our direction, you know, and so, like, if she wants a part of a full arms embargo. Okay, great. What is your idea? Like, we need to hear it.

[Zoe Chase]

One thing he absolutely needs at this convention to show that his voters are being listened to and taken seriously by the campaign is a speaker. The convention is mostly about speakers, symbols of who the party is speaking to, who the party cares about. A Palestinian speaker on the main stage would be their chance for someone who can represent their perspective. There are a lot of delegates here who do not want this to happen. Some of them probably agree with Abbas about the war in Israel. But the feeling is, right now, you're bringing this up. This convention is an advertisement. Don't have a speaker saying Biden and Harris are doing something wrong. This is an event all about. Look at how joyful and united we are.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Even as Abbas is sitting down for his MSNBC interview, someone who really doesn't see things his way is just leaving the set. Former Republican Congressman Joe Walsh. He's wearing an Israel pin. We grab him.

[Zoe Chase]

Second, actually, we've been following around this guy Abbas over here who's an uncommitted delegate.

[Ira Glass]

This guy?

[Zoe Chase]

Yep. He's, you know, uncommitted. They're focusing on Gaza and Gaza and trying to get a ceasefire and an arms embargo. I see you have the Israel pin. How do you feel about kind of the delegates that are on the fence about Harris right now over this issue?

[Ira Glass]

My response always is, I'm a Tea Party former Republican who's all on board with Kamala Harris. If I can do that, anybody focused.

[Ben Terras]

On an issue they care about can get on board with the.

[Ira Glass]

Because Trump needs to be defeated. That's it.

[Zoe Chase]

Do you feel like it could be a problem for Democrats?

[Ira Glass]

Absolutely. That issue, the Israel issue, divides the Democratic coalition. I say that as a former Republican. We're solidly behind Israel for a lot of different reasons. But this splits the coalition, and I think it's going to be a real big problem for them.

[Zoe Chase]

Could you then try to make the case to them? Look, I'm the Tea Party Republican, and I'm going to be voting for Kamala Harris anyway. Maybe we can just follow this one.

[Ira Glass]

Yes. Because if Kamala Harris came out tomorrow and said, we need to end Israel, stop. If I'm president, I'm not going to give you any more bombs. We got to stop it. I'd be as pissed as you can imagine. But I'm still voting for Kamala Harris no matter what. Come on. If I can do that.

[Zoe Chase]

By the second day of the convention Tuesday, it's become clear that uncommitted isn't going to get much on policy from the Democrats. But what they still might get is a speaker, and so they push on it hard.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Abbas is asked about it all the time. He's constantly on his phone calling people, trying to make it happen, talking to Congress members, people on the Harris campaign, high ranking DNC officials.

[Ben Terras]

Hello, my friend, how are you? Just checking in on the Palestinian American speaker request because we've got a Press availability at 6:00 and I know there's gonna be a ton of reporters who asked me about it, and I want to be able to say yes, so. But I. We don't have a yes yet, so I thought I'd check in. Okay, well, I mean, I'll, I'll say that. Yeah. I mean, that's what I've been saying. I'm saying we haven't. We don't have a yes, but we don't have a no, and we remain hopeful. So I'll, I'll keep saying that. Okay, great. Oh, is there any indication of, like, who specifically? You know, like, there's an openness to. That's the problem. He said okay. I mean, is there a way we can, like, meet while at the convention center and, like, go through some options? Because we can help with that.

[Abbas Alawiya]

The call wraps up without more to it.

[Ben Terras]

I think they haven't settled on a name.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Yeah.

[Ben Terras]

Which is not a bad thing. I mean, we can help them. Like, we know plenty of Palestinian.

[Abbas Alawiya]

You sounded a little discouraged in your voice.

[Ben Terras]

So we have such stellar leaders, like, within the Arab American community and within the Palestinian American community that, you know, like, I don't, I don't want to feel like, like they have a problem with all of us. You know what I mean? And then that's certainly not what they're saying. Like, you know, if they say no, it could be evidence that that might be the case. But I, I really don't think that, like, the folks we're talking to that, that, that that's how they feel.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Abbas is always balancing two very different worlds through his phone. The first, his insider world. He has lots of contacts inside the dnc. He's heard that they're close to getting what he wants, but they can't get to yes.

[Zoe Chase]

The other kind of call he's getting is from friends and Family, people in Michigan wanting to know, how are you? How is it? Are you going to get us something? Family back in Lebanon call a lot, too. This was back in August, when Lebanese militants from Hezbollah and Israel had been trading rocket fire across the border for months. At one point, a boss hears from his aunt, who sleeps with slippers under her pillow every night just in case she had just fled home in southern Lebanon and gone north.

[Ben Terras]

And so, yeah, I guess, you know, last night I got news from my aunt that she couldn't stand the bomb around her anymore, that there was a particular bombing that happened, airstrike that happened, that was. That felt too close. She'll say, like, you know, I just. I'm such a scaredy cat. I couldn't take it anymore. I just, you know. You know, just like. But then, you know, she turned serious when she was telling me about how my dad was telling her that I'm going on TV and trying to get them to stop the bombings. And. And she expressed concern for my safety. She said, is it safe for you to talk about these things? I said, oh, don't worry. I'm an American. I'm allowed to say whatever I want here.

[Abbas Alawiya]

So his family, they're watching him on the news. They're talking about him in the group chat. They're telling him what they think of his tactics and his demands, and they're also telling him how scared they are. He's holding all these things in his head, which he says can be dizzying. He knows just getting a speaker at the DNC doesn't change anything for his family, of course, but he believes it would be a powerful symbol that there is a political party in America that sees them, that's listening to them.

[Zoe Chase]

By midweek, Uncommitted is trying to make the request for a speaker as acceptable as possible. They'd initially asked for two speakers on the stage, one uncommitted supporter and a doctor who treated patients in Gaza. But now they simplified that to one speaker. How about just any Palestinian? They suggest a few Palestinian American elected Democrats, and they prepare their speeches to be vetted. Still nothing. Finally, it's Wednesday night, one more day left of the convention. They still haven't heard yes, and they still haven't heard no. So yet another press conference outside the arena.

[Ben Terras]

Is there room for Palestinian Americans in this party? Is there room for Palestinian human rights in this party? I sure hope. I sure hope that the answer is yes.

[Zoe Chase]

And with that, all the uncommitted delegates head inside. Because of the speech, they want to see the Parents of an Israeli hostage kidnapped by Hamas take the stage. The uncommitted delegates tell me it's important to them to be here for this. They think the war is a tragedy. They want to honor the Israeli victims during their moments. And yeah, they also want to signal solidarity.

[Abbas Alawiya]

The parents walk out holding hands. The father is stooped, like he's got a weight on him. The feeling in the room is like heart and mouth. This is really different from most of the speakers so far. Or basically height men. The audience breaks into this chant.

[Ira Glass]

At this moment, one hundred and nine treasured human beings are being held hostage by Hamas in Gaza.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Cameras swivel not to the crowd, but directly up at a boss. They're snapping pictures of him, watching. I'm standing next to him in the corner of the arena with the rest of the Michigan delegates. Remember, he's six. Six. He's so tall with his keffiyeh. Everyone is standing. He of course is standing. For some reason, they really want to capture his reaction, if he has any. To the parents watching him, watching them, his face is expressionless, but wet. Tears, tears all over the room. As far as I can tell, at the time the parents were speaking, there was good reason to assume their son Hirsch was still alive. His death was announced almost a week after the convention. One part of the speech in particular will hit Abbas hard. I know it.

[Ira Glass]

There is a surplus of agony on all sides of the tragic conflict in the Middle East. In a competition of pain, there are no winners. In our Jewish tradition, we say every.

[Ben Terras]

Person is an entire universe. We must save all these universes.

[Zoe Chase]

In an inflamed Middle east, we know.

[Ira Glass]

The one thing that can most immediately release pressure and bring calm to the entire region. A deal that brings this Diverse group.

[Ben Terras]

Of 109 hostages home and ends the suffering of the innocent civilians in Gaza.

[Abbas Alawiya]

The parents leave the stage, followed by an inexplicable choice of music. And just then a boss kind of tears out of the convention hall as best you can through incredibly crowded narrow stairs. Just makes a break for it. I see him stop just outside the arena. He's in this one weird quiet space just before the hallway outside. He's alone, which he never is. He covers his face and sobs hard into the wall. Then he's basically running out through the doors of the venue, through throngs of people outside trying to talk to him. And he's rushing past them. I see we're headed to the security gate. We go through the security gate and we're on the street. He doesn't look ready to talk, but I have to say something. I just gotta ask you, why was that so hard?

[Ira Glass]

I don't remember.

[Ben Terras]

Maybe I can collect myself and we can talk about it later.

[Abbas Alawiya]

But.

[Ben Terras]

What I was thinking about during the speech was, you know, in our tradition, it's essentially if you harm or kill any one person, it's like you've harmed or killed all of humanity. And that's what they spoke about from the state, about every person being the universe in the Jewish tradition. I believe that. I believe that with all my heart. That's. I'm feeling really helpless. I'm feeling hopeless. I'm feeling like, of course, of course we need to hear from these parents. What about. What about the Palestinians? What about the over 40,000 who've been killed? Who've been obliterated? The 40,000 universes? There's an active suppression of a giant part of this story. I feel. I felt. I can only imagine what they must have been feeling. It must have been very lonely up there. And I felt very lonely in that arena. I gotta go somewhere.

[Abbas Alawiya]

I think at that moment, Abbas knew that was all that was gonna be said on the stage about the war in Gaza from the people directly affected by the war. I head back to the convention hall. I see a bunch of other uncommitted delegates outside. They're from all over Hawaii, Washington State, Rhode Island. Some are Arab American, but not all. They got a text to come out and meet. There's a weird empty feeling. Nobody's talking much. It seems like they're all just waiting for a boss to come back. There's a physical energy shift out here. A loss of power, a loss of relevance kinda in the air, like the opposite of an adrenaline surge. A lonely exhale when the doors close behind you. But just then, speaking of adrenaline, Abbas rushes back into the scene looking very intense. He grabs me by the arm and pulls me into a bus shelter that's right in front of the arena so that I'll be able to hear him. And he's speaking in this uncharacteristically quiet, angry way.

[Ben Terras]

I'm an insider, okay? People I'm making this ask of are people I know personally. I've looked them in the face and I've made a very reasonable ask for us not to be suppressed. If you're not going to agree with us on policy, at least, at least don't suppress our voices. Okay? I think I've made a very reasonable ask. And they called and said the answer is no. Point blank. The answer is no, they didn't say anything else. I said, why all that stuff they said? They said, I was just told to tell you the answer is no. And so I have no options left through the way that I am told. This is the way to make your voice heard. You engage the system. So that's what I gotta do. I gotta step into my power as a regular everyday person.

[Abbas Alawiya]

I have no idea what that means. And then a boss turns and strides away like if he were wearing a cape, it would have swirled behind his body. My co reporter, Ben is out here, of course, and he comes over to me. I just talked to Waleed, he says one of the leaders and the unofficial press guy for the uncommitted Waleed just.

[Zoe Chase]

Told me that people have been calling Abbas to tell him to not say what he's about to say right now, but he won't be talked down.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Okay, got it.

[Zoe Chase]

Whatever he's about to say, he's been told not to say.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Okay.

[Zoe Chase]

Then Abbas calls people over for a press conference.

[Ira Glass]

All right, let's get started.

[Zoe Chase]

There's a huge mass of press, like five different mics, it seems, from Democracy now alone. He asks for a moment of silence for all the lives that have been lost in the Gaza war. He recaps the ask for the Palestinian speaker, recaps the no. And then he sits down on the sidewalk and whips out his phone in front of all the reporters. And he calls a DNC official he's been talking to.

[Ben Terras]

I gotta make a call. Hey, Roger, how are you? We're at a press conference right outside. Okay? We tried everything we can. Okay? We're just asking to be heard. We're asking for our voices not to be suppressed. And Roger, you know, I'm someone who works within the system, okay? And the vice president's decision to suppress us is unacceptable. And so I've run out of options from my position as a delegate. And so I'm leaning into my power as a regular everyday person. And I'm sitting here and I'm not going anywhere, Roger. I'm not going anywhere. You all. You all need to change your mind. I hope you change your mind. Call me if you change your mind. Yeah, call me if you change your mind, Roger. Thank you. Thank you. Please pass it along. Tell the vice president that I'm. I'm sitting outside. I'm not going anywhere. I hope she changes her mind. Thank you. Okay, I'm going to be sitting down right here. I'm not going anywhere. If any of my. If any of my uncommitted delegate siblings. Choose to sit down with me. Please say your name, say who you are and feel free to take a seat.

[Zoe Chase]

And also, Abbasa pulled his whole community into this effort. He drew tremendous attention to the Democratic party's lack of interest in what mattered most to them. Now he's drawing attention to a tremendous failure. Is it his own, the Democratic Party's? Either way, it's gotta be crushing.

[Abbas Alawiya]

What follows is a long night inside the convention center. Oprah speaks. Tim Walz speaks. The whole thing is being broadcast on a big screen that hangs on the UN United center wall just behind the sit in. The screen keeps showing images of the crowd dancing and laughing and giving standing ovations. But the press has noticed the sit in and so did the Harris campaign.

[Zoe Chase]

At one point, Waleed, the uncommitted press guy comes over to us and says, can I tell you something?

[Ira Glass]

Can I tell you all something?

[Abbas Alawiya]

Yeah, let's go over here.

[Ira Glass]

Every one of the dead senior staff is standing right there and are trying to make a deal. And the deal is not, none of the deals have, none of the proposals have anything to do with the speaker or policy change.

[Zoe Chase]

Well, lead motions at one of those outdoor bus shelters. And sure enough, there's a clutch of people, two women, three men on their phones looking in our direction. One of them was hitting a vape like a steam engine locomotive. It was pretty funny actually watching them on their phone with people who were like 100ft away.

[Abbas Alawiya]

What kind of deals are they?

[Ira Glass]

They're like a meeting with a campaign manager, a meeting with this person, a meeting with that person.

[Zoe Chase]

What about a meeting with Harris? Would that be enough?

[Ira Glass]

Not happening? They said, yeah. So we said it's going to be a speaker. They said no.

[Zoe Chase]

Have they said why at all?

[Ira Glass]

Nope. They said how can we get the to end? And I said, well, he wants a speaker. And then they said what else? And I was like, an arms embark. And they're like, well, that's not going to happen. So I was like. And I'm like exactly. That's why we're asking for a speaker. We've tried to make it easy. And so they asked what's your plan after Thursday, after the convention is over? And I was like, well, I think where he's betting that you guys will be so embarrassed that he'll give a speaker. And they're like, well, I mean the.

[Zoe Chase]

Other thing was like, they were like.

[Ira Glass]

Well, she can't give in on the.

[Zoe Chase]

Last day of her.

[Ira Glass]

She can't let the last day of the convention Be that she's been bullied by young activists and Arab Americans. And I was like, that was your decision to wait until the very last minute? I mean, we are. I don't know, they found themselves in this position.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Can you picture how it ends at this point? Are you just as curious as us?

[Zoe Chase]

I think.

[Ira Glass]

I think we're going to get a speaker. I think you can find us Palestinian American who is palatable for the Democratic Party. I mean, this was also like, I told you this, but like several people call me and him to tell us, not allies who've been standing with us told us not to do this. And they say why? Yeah, that they thought it made us look fringe and small and.

[Zoe Chase]

Yeah, fringe and small. Not like organizers who could turn out 100,000 votes in a swing state. We've reached out to the Harris campaign about why they didn't agree to a speaker. They declined to do an interview. Usually when they talk about this issue, all they'll say is that they're working around the clock on a ceasefire. But they were clearly doing some political calculations on this question around a speaker. My best guess, they worry that agreeing to a speaker would risk controversy and turn off as many voters as it might appease, including Republicans they hope to win over. Also, they might not feel like they need an endorsement from uncommitted. They feel like they'll be able to pick up a bunch of their voters anyway and they might be right about all that.

[Abbas Alawiya]

The sit in goes all night without too much drama. They keep sitting the next day in the August heat. It's tiring. They look a little defeated at times. They're getting a lot of press attention, though, which is a small win for them. In the evening, they give one last press conference, they end the sit in and they head back inside the convention.

[Zoe Chase]

Help me singing out nice and loud.

[Ira Glass]

You're ready to get down and party with me one time.

[Zoe Chase]

Dncc.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Why are you crying?

[Ben Terras]

It's not in the mood to party.

[Abbas Alawiya]

The party is winding down. Kamala Harris speaks and then the convention is over.

[Zoe Chase]

We head outside. While people are streaming out of the United center, they're carrying giant signs that say Kamala and they're popping balloons on the street. Abbas has barely slept in days, but he's still standing. He's in a bind at this point. He came here with leverage, sent by a voting bloc in a swing state. He said they could be convinced to turn out for Harris if the Harris campaign gave them something in return. But what did they give them? No policy change, no Speaker, There's a big risk that these voters could be left even angrier or more hurt or more unheard than they were before. Amidst the celebrating from the DNC faithful, a number of people come up to Abbas, many of them wearing keffiyyahs, which have emerged as a sort of visual symbol, support of a ceasefire, to thank him, to embrace, to tell him to keep up the fight. And then a woman dressed in all white comes up. Abbas tells us she's a friend.

[Ben Terras]

Hang it on. You good?

[Ira Glass]

Yeah, I'm good.

[Zoe Chase]

She's Arab American, a friend from Capitol Hill, and she didn't want us to use her name. She's an aide to a Democratic member of Congress.

[Ira Glass]

I have a little bit more hope.

[Ben Terras]

Okay, let's build on it. Yeah.

[Abbas Alawiya]

What scares me is what if this.

[Ben Terras]

Movement doesn't move them? And if we. If we don't.

[Zoe Chase]

If we don't succeed, Trump, he's.

[Ben Terras]

They have so. They have so offended our people. They have so, so offended our people. Our people being people for whom Gaza is a top policy issue. They have so offended them that the. In my opinion, the people who we're inspiring and we're animating and we're motivating are so pissed off. Are so pissed off by 16,000 children dead and not have that mentioned from the stage that this is like. They're like, I don't want anything to do with any of this. I don't even want to vote. We don't want that, boss. We don't want that. We can't have people think that people.

[Zoe Chase]

Have to come up.

[Ben Terras]

You gotta give them something to vote for. I'm sorry. We know what to not vote for.

[Abbas Alawiya]

We.

[Ben Terras]

Staying inside is like. And I know. And I know with Trump, he's gonna fuck us over. There's no Palestinian anymore.

[Zoe Chase]

It's destroyed.

[Abbas Alawiya]

The entire Middle east is done.

[Ben Terras]

We're done.

[Ira Glass]

Yes.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Create this movement.

[Zoe Chase]

Create, like, this platform for us.

[Ben Terras]

Give us this national recognition of platform.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Which this has done. But we can't.

[Zoe Chase]

We can't have people not go out and vote.

[Ira Glass]

There needs to be.

[Ben Terras]

What I'm telling you is, unless we. Unless we intervene, those people aren't going to go out and vote right now if the election was tomorrow. They're not convinced that Trump is going to be different on this issue. No, but he will be. I know, I know he will be, but this movement has a responsibility to.

[Zoe Chase]

Make sure our people know we can't.

[Ben Terras]

I'm a million percent with you.

[Zoe Chase]

But if we can't, if our people.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Can'T get what we want and we're used to that. We still have to go out and vote.

[Ben Terras]

And we try again next election cycle.

[Abbas Alawiya]

We keep trying, but we can't have Trump win.

[Ben Terras]

And you gotta make sure you, you've led this, you've led this amazing, beautiful movement. You created this. I'm doing everything that I can.

[Ira Glass]

I know, I know.

[Ben Terras]

And that includes necessarily like having the tough conversations about Trump. I mean, come spend, come spend some time with me in Michigan and hear about how people talk, how people are talking about Trump.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Now Abbas has to go home to Michigan Dearborn and have the hard conversations. He wants Harris to win. He convinced a lot of people to vote uncommitted so they could nudge her position on Gaza and Israel. They didn't succeed at that. How can he possibly get them to vote for Harris when he's coming back empty handed?

[Ira Glass]

Zoe Chase and Ben Terrace, we go to Michigan in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues. Support for this American Life comes from Capella University. Learning doesn't have to get in the way of life. With Capella's game changing Flex path learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your own schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to earn your degree. Instead, enjoy learning your way and pursue your educational and career goals without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail] support for this American Life comes from Squarespace, the all in one website platform with features like Squarespace Payments, an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. Turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates and contracts and simplify your workflow and manage your services business on one platform. Head to squarespace.comamerican for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This is American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Today's show a little bit of power. Ben Terras and Zoe Chase now continue their story about Abbas Alawiya and its block of uncommitted voters. They pick up the story three weeks after the Democratic National Convention. It's now mid September. Abbas and other uncommitted leaders organize a community meeting in Michigan.

[Zoe Chase]

Remember, Abbas helped convince 100,000 Michigan voters to check the box for uncommitted in the primary. Now if they don't flip back and vote Democratic, it could really determine the results in Michigan. And without Michigan, Harris could really lose.

[Abbas Alawiya]

That little bit of power it felt like they had back in February has not gotten them an arms embargo. A ceasefire, any suggestion of a policy change from Kamala Harris or even a speaker on the stage of the Democratic National Convention. Still, Abbas and the uncommitted leadership needs to deliver some kind of guidance about what to do to these same voters.

[Zoe Chase]

So we're in Dearborn, where this movement began in the first place. Many people here have family in the Middle east and lots like Abbas in Lebanon, which has been bombed and invaded by Israeli ground forces. The day we arrive is just before that. It's the day a bunch of pagers exploded all over Lebanon in an Israeli attack that killed dozens of people and injured thousands. Abbas phone is flooded with messages from his family in Lebanon, who are really frightened. Even people in Dearborn seem freaked out by their phones. Abbas has this dread hanging over him of what's to come before the meeting.

[Abbas Alawiya]

We meet Abbas at the coffee shop in town. He calls the office. He's scrolling through his laptop, through the statement he's gonna read.

[Zoe Chase]

Are you nervous at all going into tonight?

[Ben Terras]

I. I didn't think I was. And then I felt like I was gonna throw up earlier. And I don't know if it was related to this, but it might have been.

[Zoe Chase]

I think it might have been.

[Abbas Alawiya]

This is a tough crowd he's about to face. It's a bunch of people who are going to render a verdict on what he's been doing, and he's balancing a lot at once. He does still want people to vote for Harris, but Uncommitted promised they wouldn't mobilize get out the vote operations for Harris without getting something from the campaign.

[Zoe Chase]

Later that evening, a boss joins uncommitted voters and organizers at this huge Islamic community center in town. It's got tiled floors. It's very echoey. Chairs are set up in rows facing a panel of speakers. It definitely does not have a cozy vibe. It does not feel like it's set up for a discussion. Maybe 50 people show up. They're primarily older Arab men from the area. And it feels a bit like a meeting of the dads. The organizers sit at a long table with microphones and talk for a while about what they have accomplished and how they got here. And finally they talk about what's next. Abbas delivers Uncommitted's official word.

[Ben Terras]

At this time, our movement number one cannot endorse Vice President Harris. We've been very clear that the word endorse is a very specific thing. It means our organization that did 1.5 million voter contacts that proactively reached out to people and told them to Vote uncommitted. We had said very clearly, publicly, publicly, to our community and to the Vice President, to the Vice President's team, if you change your policy, we will endorse. And endorsing means we'll get out the vote for Vice President Harris. Her campaign made it impossible for us to endorse. Now, that might mean that some of us still vote for Kamala Harris, some of us vote against her, some of us might not vote at the top of the ticket. And, and that's the conversation we want to invite. But an endorsement would mean us mobilizing. Number two, we oppose a Donald Trump presidency whose agenda includes plans to accelerate the killing in Gaza while intensifying the suppression of anti war organizing. And number three, we are not recommending a third party vote in the presidential election, especially as a third party vote in key swing states like Michigan could help inadvertently deliver a Trump presidency, given our country's broken electoral college system. Okay, so that's what this statement says, and I wanted to make sure that you all hear it. And I want. Huh.

[Zoe Chase]

The feeling in the room is people are confused. This muddled statement which does not endorse Harris, but seems to be telling them to vote for her anyway and definitely do not vote for Trump or a third party. When it's finally time for questions, many hands go up. An early question is about strategy. Are we throwing away the power of our voting bloc by not recommending one person for us all to vote for?

[Ira Glass]

So now how are you going to count our vote? The second thing is, why don't we.

[Ben Terras]

I know the third party is not.

[Ira Glass]

Viable, but isn't it better that we.

[Ben Terras]

Put our vote there so we can count them? The percentage, at least we can say that. 1%, 2%, 3%, especially in our community.

[Zoe Chase]

Abbas is pretty mad about the way the Green Party has been talking to voters in this part of the state and he jumps in.

[Ben Terras]

I wanted to take a moment specifically to address the third party question because I know it's a question that folks might have. My concern is with any candidate that comes to our community and says things like, I have a shot at winning and if you vote for Trump or for Harris, you endorse the genocide. And the only way not to endorse the genocide is to vote for me. I am very concerned about that.

[Abbas Alawiya]

They get asked about a third party over and over again. Jill Stein, the Green Party, she says, no more war. We're going to stop Israel. And she's been making a real play in this area, Southern Michigan, committing to no more War specifically. And another thing people are asking. Democrats need to learn to listen to us. How else will they listen if we don't withhold our vote from them?

[Zoe Chase]

Some people at the meeting are sick of listening to Abbas altogether. And I'm voting my conscience as a position to.

[Ben Terras]

Which means no genocide.

[Zoe Chase]

I'm voting my conscience as a physician. Which means no genocide. He says we as a community see.

[Ben Terras]

That uncommitted now itself doesn't know what is doing. If you by the next week don't come up with a clear act, no children, then you don't represent us. Please dissolve. And going forward, you don't not represent us. You represent your interest, your individuals. And that is my call. All third party. And we know Trump is terrible.

[Zoe Chase]

We are not stupid.

[Ben Terras]

But he will stop the. He might do worse things, but he will stop the. Thank you. Thank you so much. We're going to, we're going to do one more comment over here.

[Abbas Alawiya]

The meeting ends pretty abruptly, but no one leaves. People stay trying to talk to Abbas and the other organizers. They have a lot of feedback. Remember, most of these guys voted uncommitted in the primary. Some of them volunteered, organized, phone banked. Like this guy Amin Hashmi, who's one of many swarming Abbas after the meeting is over. He's considering voting for Trump.

[Ira Glass]

I've been praying for the last two months.

[Ben Terras]

I'm going to pray more. Make sure in three weeks I'm telling you Trump will change his position. I'm guaranteeing you because he's changing already. Remember in second debate he, he said Arabs are also dying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I saw. He was trying to speak to us. But we have what Trump says. We can't believe what Trump says. Yeah, but come on, Democrats also do the same thing. True, true. Let's see if he comes up openly and says something instead of private. Let's see if he does that. If he does that, I would vote for Trump, man. I wouldn't recommend it. I think he's a bad guy. But what else you have? I mean they're not change their position. Neither have not moved. It's going to be one or the other. And under Trump it would be a lot worse in my opinion. But how would you change the Kamala, I mean not on 10 months didn't do anything right. What studied you have left. I think our. You have only four weeks left. And here's what I. No, I'm not hoping. I'm organizing. Okay. Because here's, here's, here's what here's what we've been doing in the meantime. Whatever happened with dnc, it's a shame for us, man. No, but what I'm saying, I felt bad for you sitting outside, like encamping outside. I mean, this is nonsense. Doesn't look good. And it's already showing their neck to neck right now, right? Yeah. All the polls are showing. It's back and forth, is swinging right three or four states, so it's already there. Why she's not feeling the pain, why she doesn't want White House? What is her strategy? Who's telling her behind that? No, it's open. Okay. You can live without Muslims or Arab boards. Let's keep the conversation going. Great to see you.

[Zoe Chase]

Abbas knows pretty much everyone in this room and some for sure are offering their support. Like, nice job. I get the feeling that most of these guys, though, are thinking like this voter, Rafat Dika, he's Lebanese, lived in Dearborn for 40 years now, and he's.

[Ira Glass]

Not convinced I am voting third party.

[Ben Terras]

I'm not part of third party. I'm not the Green, but I'm a Democrat. But if I want to vote my.

[Ira Glass]

Conscience this time without political calculations, I.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Mean, I don't mean to say the most obvious thing. I just want to know what you think. Like, Michigan went to Trump 2016 by 10,000 votes. If you vote third party, you're not voting for Harris, so you're taking your vote away from Harris.

[Ben Terras]

That's their problem, not mine.

[Zoe Chase]

As a boss heads for the door, people are still coming up to him making the case for voting third party.

[Abbas Alawiya]

One uncommitted leader I talked to worried that maybe this whole thing had backfired. That by making it so that the Democrats weren't listening, by asking so publicly for a speaker and then not getting it, they lost more votes for Harris. Like, who's going to support a party that humiliated us like that? I asked Abbas about this, and so it's arguable that maybe people got more turned off by the Democratic Party because of that whole thing. And do you think about that and how do you think about it?

[Ben Terras]

Yeah, I do think about it. And I think that's why the Democratic Party should continue engaging in this kind of discrimination.

[Abbas Alawiya]

But you don't think that it turned. It possibly turned off more voters?

[Ben Terras]

I mean, I think it's possible that it turned off more voters. That's why the Democratic Party shouldn't have made that decision.

[Abbas Alawiya]

But it never makes you question your tactics.

[Ben Terras]

I didn't make that decision, Zoe. I. You Know, I. I don't think they should have done it. I. I can't. I can't. For me, as a. As someone who experienced the discrimination, I don't think it's appropriate for me to be asked and for our. For our group to be asked. But don't you think that you shouldn't have put your. The person who discriminated against. The group that discriminated against you in a position to discriminate against you? I don't think that's a fair thing to ask of us.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Abbas had hope that the uncommitted movement would be out now, making calls, knocking on doors, mobilizing people like they did in the primary. But for Harris, this time, that's not happening. He figures the best thing he can do with the time left is talk to people, person by person in his life, to convince people not to vote for Trump or for a third party. One of those people is his own dad. He was at that community meeting and still isn't sure how he's going to vote.

[Zoe Chase]

We meet up with his dad at his warehouse in town. He is in sales, not car sales, though. Abbas was trying to convince him it's two options.

[Ben Terras]

One of them is going to be president. So we have to vote against Trump and for Harris. Like, that's. That's how I feel about it. But do you think that resonates? Do you think people are going to understand that? No, Baba. Even me, huh? You know how much I love you. You know, and even if you want blood, I will give you my blood. But for this one, I'm not convinced to. To give her my voice. I'm not convinced. Do you think if she moves before November 5th, you mind? If she gives, we will give. But if she wants only to take, we are not gonna give. That's it. You stand with my people, I will give you my vote. You stand against my people, you are not gonna see my vote.

[Abbas Alawiya]

That's it.

[Ben Terras]

Easy. And. Well, we'll keep talking, Bob. Okay. You know, Abbas is one of our leaders that we are so proud of him, not as a dad, but as a community. And because we are proud of him, we don't want him to fall in a hole in losing his principles.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Yeah.

[Ben Terras]

Do you think me voting for Harris means I'm losing my principles? For right now, I'm not happy with that. That's what I want to say.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Conversations like that have only gotten harder to have. The war in Lebanon has escalated. It all feels very close to home. In Dearborn, Abbas was recently at the funeral of a friend's father who was killed in Lebanon. Honestly, every day feels like a funeral. Some people told us. People are so upset and so consumed by what's happening overseas. It really doesn't feel like a time to have these difficult conversations about the presidential election.

[Zoe Chase]

Still, the polls in Michigan continue to be incredibly close. The Harris campaign has made some attempts to reach out to Arab and Muslim voters. Recently, VP nominee Tim Walz met with a Muslim political organization which endorsed Harris. A group of 25 imams threw their support behind Harris, saying in an open letter that she represents, quote, the best option for ending the bloodshed in Gaza and now Lebanon.

[Abbas Alawiya]

One uncommitted organizer told us, listen, it's just too late to change minds. People she's talking to are sure they will not be supporting Kamala Harris no matter what she does. Abbas was not impressed by those gestures from the Harris campaign. He said that is an insular, limited and woefully inadequate approach that does not do much of anything to persuade people.

[Ira Glass]

Ben Terrace with Zoe Chase. Zoe's a producer on our show. Ben is a political reporter for the Washington Post and the author of the book the Big Break. The Gamblers, Party Animals and True Believers trying to win Washington. While America loses its mind.

[Ben Terras]

The water's on the rise let's move to higher.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Ground there's nothing left to spend why.

[Ben Terras]

Don'T we buckle down?

[Abbas Alawiya]

Cause nothing's ever fair A dream that never was so hope and then a prayer Keep pushing, disregard.

[Ira Glass]

Might get another chance I know my head don't work.

[Zoe Chase]

In all the plan I'll keep keep.

[Abbas Alawiya]

On trying to give a little to.

[Ben Terras]

Step out in the cold but doesn't.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Kill you, makes you stronger you got.

[Ira Glass]

To take a risk My moves are.

[Abbas Alawiya]

Getting bold Keep pushing just a little.

[Ira Glass]

Longer well our program is produced today by Lily Sullivan. The people put together today's show included Jindahi Banz, Sean Cole, Michael Kamate, Valerie Kipnis, Henry Larson, Tobin Lowe, Kathleen Mondo, Stone Nelson, Nadia Raymond, Ryan Rumory, Ike Shris, Kondaraja, Lara Starcheski, Frances Swanson, Christopher Sutala, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updike, Julie Whitaker and Diane Wu. Our managing editor, Sara Abdurrahman, our senior editors, David Kestenbaum, our executive editors, Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks today to Asmaan Mohammed, Layla Elabid, Lexiz, Abbas Hajj Ahmed, Saul Levin, Jeremiah Ellison, Bernie Porn, Rima Mohammed, Bilal Beydoun, Jordan Acker, the Washington Post style section and the Post Reports podcast. Our website, thisamericanlife.org where you can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by prx, the public radio Exchange. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Mr. Tori Malatia. He got a Rolex the other day. All he does now is party with his new Rolex friends overnight, an extremely unusual watch party. I'm Aaron Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American Life. Next week on the podcast of this American Life.

[Abbas Alawiya]

This is the case of Henry D. Number C04.

[Ira Glass]

Parole board hearings are this weird backwater of the judicial system doesn't get a lot of scrutiny. Next week we listen in as board members discuss one case. We see people get persuaded as they try to adjudicate these very squishy, nearly impossible questions like when is a person rehabilitated? What is justice? That's next week on the podcast or in your local public radio station. Support for this American life comes from Solventum 3M Healthcare is now Solventum, a new company with a long legacy of creating breakthrough solutions for their customers. Solventum's diverse experience spans the healthcare industry and they're ushering in a new era of care, pushing the boundaries of health material and data science to break through barriers and solve big healthcare challenges. Because at Solventum, they never stop solving for you. Learn more at Solventum, combination.