848: The Official Unofficial Record

Summary

This American Life - Episode 848: The Official Unofficial Record

Host: Ira Glass
**Produced in collaboration with WBEZ Chicago
Release Date: November 24, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 848, titled "The Official Unofficial Record," This American Life delves into stories of individuals striving to set the record straight against formidable odds. Hosted by Ira Glass and featuring narratives by Nancy Updike and other contributors, the episode explores the intricate dynamics of Venezuela's contested presidential election, the persistent skepticism surrounding U.S. elections, and an unconventional campaign to redefine the reputation of black widow spiders. This summary highlights the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from each segment, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps.

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Story 1: Venezuela's Rigged Election and the Opposition's Grand Plan

Narrative by Nancy Updike

Context and Background

The episode opens with a focus on Venezuela's contentious presidential election held in July 2024, where incumbent President Nicolás Maduro sought re-election amidst a crumbling economy exacerbated by his policies and U.S. sanctions. The country faced severe government repression, including increased surveillance, arbitrary detentions, and violent crackdowns on protests, as reported by the United Nations and human rights organizations.

"President Nicolás Maduro was up for reelection in Venezuela in July. A lot was on the line in this election."
[00:28] – Nancy Updike

Despite these challenges, Venezuela maintains a structured electoral system designed to prevent fraud, established under former President Hugo Chávez. The credibility of this system was lauded by Jimmy Carter as, "the best in the world" ([00:28]).

The Opposition’s 600k Plan

Amidst the tense atmosphere, the opposition devised an ambitious plan named "Sesientos CA" or "600K," aimed at meticulously documenting the voting process to ensure transparency and credibility of the results. This plan involved a nationwide relay of 600,000 volunteers tasked with collecting and verifying paper copies of vote totals from each voting machine.

"Sesientos Ca was created because we knew winning the election was not enough. We need the capacity to prove and demonstrate that we won the election."
[05:35] – Nancy Updike

Personal Accounts: Maria and Pedro

The story centers around Maria and Pedro, two dedicated volunteers whose real identities are concealed for safety reasons. Maria, a seasoned reporter with 15 years of experience in Venezuela, recounts the eerie announcement of Maduro’s victory announced solely through percentage figures without actual vote counts—a first in Venezuela’s electoral history.

"It was weird."
[03:24] – Maria

Upon suspecting election fraud, the opposition swiftly mobilized thousands of volunteers to collect and verify the actas (vote tallies) from over 30,000 voting machines. The relay system they implemented relied heavily on technological tools like QR codes and secure websites to disseminate accurate vote counts in real-time.

Pedro elaborates on the training process, emphasizing the importance of negotiation skills and steadfastness in upholding election laws under pressure.

"The training was about how to negotiate and how to really communicate and create harmony with people..."
[12:19] – Pedro

Election Day Challenges

On election day, Maria and her team faced numerous obstacles, including deliberate attempts to slow down the voting process by manipulating voter distribution and increasing bureaucratic resistance. Despite these hurdles, the 600k plan enabled the opposition to gather and publish comprehensive vote data, revealing a decisive victory for the opposition candidate Edmundo González Arrutia over Maduro.

"The Electoral Council proclaimed Maduro as the winner with only the percentages of the voting, not the actual numbers of how many votes Maduro got. This is very irregular."
[02:47] – Maria

Aftermath and Impact

The accurate dissemination of vote totals exposed the discrepancy between the official results and the grassroots data, undermining Maduro’s claims. International media organizations like The Washington Post and Associated Press verified the legitimacy of the opposition's actas, further delegitimizing the government's assertions.

However, despite the clear evidence of electoral fraud, Maduro remained in power, leading to widespread detentions and human rights abuses against opposition members, journalists, and activists.

"This effort showed that a majority of voters in this country want a change in government."
[39:41] – Nancy Updike

Conclusion

The story underscores the resilience and strategic ingenuity of the Venezuelan opposition in their quest for electoral transparency. Even in the face of systemic oppression and violent retaliation, the 600k initiative stands as a testament to the power of organized, grassroots efforts in challenging authoritarian regimes.

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Story 2: U.S. Election Skepticism and the Michigan Experience

Narrative by Nancy Updike

Introduction to Election Doubts

Transitioning from Venezuela’s plight, the episode shifts focus to the United States, exploring the persistent skepticism surrounding electoral integrity, particularly among certain Republican groups. The narrative features an encounter with Jeff Schaper, a dedicated election skeptic based in Michigan, who remains unconvinced of the 2020 election's legitimacy despite extensive investigations clearing widespread fraud claims.

"If you don't know the process, you see something and yell, you know what that is?"
[45:18] – Jeff Schaper

Election Night 2024 in Michigan

On the night of the 2024 election, Nancy Updike meets Jeff at the Detroit Convention Center, where he and his team monitor the vote-counting process with heightened vigilance. Jeff recounts tracking anomalies, such as unexpected ballot arrivals and procedural adjustments supposedly aimed at preventing fraud.

"Ballots were counted in batches of 50 by small teams. Nobody moved on till there was agreement about each batch."
[47:06] – Jeff Schaper

Despite procedural safeguards, such as the use of tabulator machines and bipartisan oversight, Jeff maintains his stance that the system is prone to manipulation. However, his interactions with Nancy reveal a complex landscape where some skepticism persists even when evidence suggests a transparent and orderly election process.

"This, it wasn't like that, and it's not at all."
[22:05] – Ana Vanessa Herrero

Shift in Public Perception

The episode highlights the contrasts between the 2020 and 2024 elections, noting a relative silence among Republicans regarding claims of electoral fraud when outcomes favored Trump. Jeff expresses a tentative sense of satisfaction with the 2024 results but acknowledges ongoing efforts to address perceived vulnerabilities in voter rolls and electoral processes.

"It's just like a football game or a basketball game. You have one day to enjoy it, then you prepare for the next game."
[48:56] – Jeff Schaper

Conclusion

This segment sheds light on the enduring challenges of combating misinformation and restoring trust in democratic institutions. It underscores the difficulty of changing entrenched beliefs, even in the face of transparent electoral outcomes, and the continuous efforts needed to uphold electoral integrity in a polarized society.

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Story 3: Debunking Black Widow Spider Myths

Narrative by Lily Sullivan

Introduction to Myths

The final story pivots to an unexpected topic: the black widow spider. Kelsey Padgett, a former New York park ranger and co-host of the podcast Fierce Rivalries, takes on the mission to dismantle widespread myths about black widow spiders, particularly the notion that females routinely kill and consume their mates.

"Black widow spiders were not always called black widow spiders. They've had many different names."
[58:09] – Kelsey Padgett

Common Misconceptions

Kelsey addresses two primary myths:

1. Sexual Cannibalism: While females may occasionally consume males, especially in captivity, this behavior is rare in the wild and not representative of black widows compared to other spider species.

   "Sexual cannibalism... is very common in the spider world. But you know who is not common that much for is black widow spiders. They only do this in captivity."
   [52:15] – Kelsey Padgett

2. Fatal Bites: Black widow bites are rarely lethal, with fatalities primarily occurring in the mid-20th century due to circumstances that have since changed, such as improved medical care and reduced human-spider interactions.

   "The majority were on penises."
   [55:41] – Kelsey Padgett

Interviews with Victims

Through interviews with individuals bitten by black widows, Kelsey illustrates the exaggerated fears and myths perpetuated by sensationalist narratives. Victims describe severe but non-fatal reactions, highlighting the gap between public perception and biological reality.

"I imagine, like the worst cramp that you've ever had in your life... like a really bad charlie horse that doesn't stop and envelops your whole chest."
[58:53] – Victim

Efforts to Rename the Spider

Kelsey proposes renaming the black widow spider to "shoe button spider" to shed its fearsome image. However, feedback from those interviewed reveals a strong attachment to the traditional name, emphasizing the cultural and psychological weight such labels carry.

"No one was into it. I do not like that at all."
[59:42] – Victim

Conclusion

This segment highlights the impact of myths on public understanding of wildlife and the challenges in altering deeply ingrained perceptions. Kelsey's endeavor underscores the importance of scientific literacy and the need to critically examine and challenge misconceptions.

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Closing Thoughts

Episode 848 of This American Life masterfully intertwines narratives of political turmoil, election integrity, and debunking wildlife myths, all unified by the central theme of striving to set the record straight. Through in-depth storytelling and personal accounts, the episode illuminates the complexities of truth-seeking in diverse contexts, from the battlegrounds of democracy to the microscopic interactions of nature.

Notable Quotes:

• "I didn't want to feel defeated at that moment."
  [32:34] – Pedro

• "It was like my whole chest was in a vice grip."
  [58:45] – Ira Glass

• "A different future is closer than you think with Capella University."
  [00:01] – Ira Glass (Ad Segment)

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For listeners seeking comprehensive insights into the unfolding narratives of power, truth, and perception, Episode 848 offers a compelling exploration of the human drive to document and defend reality against overwhelming odds.

Transcript

[Ira Glass]

Support for this American life comes from Capella University. Learning doesn't have to get in the way of life. With Capella's game changing flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your own schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to earn your degree. Instead, enjoy learning your way and pursue your educational and career goals without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Eduardo.

[Nancy Updike]

There was another presidential election that happened recently in another country, and it was an astonishing one and it has an aftermath that is ongoing. I don't know if you followed this very closely. I did not. President Nicolas Maduro was up for reelection in Venezuela in July. A lot was on the line in this election. Their economy is in ruins, partly because of Maduro's policies, but made worse by US Sanctions. Millions of people have left the country. One in five people have emigrated. Also during Maduro's time as president, there's been an increase in government surveillance and government repression, arbitrary detentions of government opponents or perceived opponents, security forces arresting people or killing people during protests. This is according to the United nations and human rights groups. But every six years in Venezuela, there's a presidential election and the country does have a real political opposition. And the way they conduct their elections in Venezuela has all kinds of safeguards against election fraud. It's a system put in place by the socialist President Hugo Chavez because he didn't want there to be a shadow of a doubt. He wanted to prove to the world and to his opponents that he really had gotten the most votes every time. Jimmy Carter, whose Carter center observes elections all around the globe, once said that out of dozens of elections that they'd monitored, Venezuelan's election system was, quote, the best in the world. And this year that got put to the test when this brutal government went to the polls with the very real possibility that they might get voted out of office. And the way it played out on the ground was this vast national drama and thousands of polling stations. Really, when you hear the details, it is remarkable what people did hoping for a fair election.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Today.

[Nancy Updike]

On our show, we have that story and also a couple of other stories of people trying to set the record straight against very great odds. From WBEC Chicago, it's this American Life. I'm Ira Glass. And let's just get to it. One of our shows called Best Actor in a Dramatic Role, Nancy Updike has our story about Venezuela.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Here she is the night of the election. The results were Announced a little after midnight on television. One of the people watching was Ana Vanessa Herrero, a reporter for the Washington Post. She'd been out covering the election all day. On election night, she was alone in a hotel room watching the results.

[Maria]

The Electoral Council proclaimed Maduro as the winner with only the percentages of the voting, not the actual numbers of how many votes Maduro got. This is very irregular. We have never seen this before.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

It was weird.

[Maria]

I was absolutely shocked. As a reporter covering Venezuela, I prepared for the worst. The most crazy things that you imagine, I prepare for that. But I've never, ever could have prepared for them. Not giving the specific number for each candidate. That was the first time.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Did you say anything out loud? Just alone in this hotel room?

[Maria]

I said, I don't understand.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

You said, I don't understand out loud in Spanish.

[Maria]

Okay. Because I didn't. I didn't understand. Like, I. I didn't. I didn't understand.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

The Electoral Council said they'd been hacked, but presented no credible evidence of the hack. All they would say is that President Nicolas Maduro had won with just over 51% of the vote. No vote totals, just the percentage. And the opposition. One hour after the Electoral Council's announcement, made their own live announcement on X. They said, actually, we won, and we can prove it. Turned out tens of thousands of volunteers in the opposition had managed to collect paper copies of the vote totals from most of the voting centers in the country, down to the level of each voting machine. The opposition began publishing those results on a website that anyone, anywhere would be able to access. And overnight, the world became different. Ana's been reporting in Venezuela for 15 years. She's lived there all her life. And this election was not like others she's covered.

[Maria]

The very next day, early in the morning, I opened my eyes to a country out in the streets, asking the government to count the votes, asking the government to give the country the numbers and show the numbers that they had. Here in Caracas, where I was, I interviewed so many people who were. Who started walking for hours, just. I spoke to this person just there standing, and I asked him where he was coming from. And he was coming from a neighborhood near La Guayra, 40 minutes by car. He started walking with his people, just. And I. And I asked him, where are you going? And he said, I don't know, but I'm not leaving until they show the results.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

I clued into this election after it happened, and I could not stop reading about it. This was a plan to document the country's entire voting record. It was extraordinary. The plan was called Sesientos CA, 600K for the network of 600,000 people around the country. The opposition estimated they would need to be in place on election day. I wanted to see inside this election, inside the opposition's plan. I wanted to know how the opposition did what it did and how they did it so fast. In an era of chronic virulent misinformation and mistrust, they pulled off a giant convincing. So I talked to an organizer of 600k. You won't hear his voice. Police have been stopping people on the street looking in their phones to see if they've been to protests or have expressed doubt about the official election results. The organizer told me he went into hiding after the election. Now he's left the country. He said Sesientos Ca was created because we knew winning the election was not enough. We need the capacity to prove and demonstrate that we won the election. Some of the plan was carried out in secret. Other parts were done in plain sight. 600k was set up to work essentially like a giant relay race. And instead of a baton, people would hand off a piece of paper. Every voting machine in Venezuela prints out a long, narrow sheet of paper at the end of the voting day. Looks like one of those epic receipts from CVS or Rite Aid, but on special paper. And the receipt shows a tally of all the votes made on that specific machine for each candidate on election day. Those receipts, the voting tallies, are called in Spanish, actas a C T, a acta. And the first runners in the relay race to get the acta in hand would be the witnesses. In Venezuela, each candidate is allowed by law to have an accredited witness at each voting machine in the country, not just in each voting center, at each voting machine. Over 30,000 machines. Some voting centers have only one machine, some have more. The witnesses can't see people's votes. They just keep an eye on the process. And then at the end of the voting day, each witness is legally entitled to get a printed copy of the acta, the voting tally, from their voting machine. The 600k plan was each opposition witness would get their acta and hand it off to someone else. The next person in the relay, that person opens an app the opposition created and then scans a QR code that's on the acta. The QR code contains all the results from that voting machine, and the app would send those results to the opposition's national command. Then another person in the relay would take the okta, the physical sheet, to a secret Location, there were over 100 in the country. Once the runner got to that place, they would hand the acta off to the person there who had a whole setup. A laptop, a scanner, starlink, Internet access and a little generator, like for camping, the organizer said. He said we needed electricity that can't be turned off and Internet access that can't be blocked. The person with the scanner would run the okta through the scanner and the image of the okta would be uploaded to the website the opposition had set up where anyone could see it, along with the vote totals from that acta. Then the acta itself, the long piece of paper would go into a box. The box, when it was full, would be kept at another secret location. There were layers of support for each part of this relay all around the country, organized by state, city, parish and voting center. The organizer said every process had a person responsible for it, with defined work and the tools to make it work. The organizer said even inside the plan, no more than 10 people knew all the parts of it. He said they mapped this out 600k based on lessons learned from counting votes in previous elections. And this time around, one thing that made a big difference was that for the first time in a national election, the actas had this QR code, which meant if the opposition witnesses could just get the actas, the full election results could go up on an opposition website right away. The whole operation depended on tens of thousands of witnesses, each getting their acta, no matter what. A process that seems to have required a combination of stamina, quick thinking and strategic belligerence. Maria was a witness. Maria is not her real name, and this is not her real voice. We recorded someone else copying what Maria said as closely as possible so we wouldn't put her at risk of being identified. Maria and her husband Pedro, also not his real name, Both volunteered for 600k.

[Pedro]

I'm so worried. I wasn't worried before, but I'm so worried now that I'm not giving you my real name. I'm not giving you Pedro's real name. I was worried enough to not want my kids to participate in the election or in any of these movements. In the end, they did participate. But now I'm very worried. And it's not my style to not give you my name. But here we are.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Maria's in her 50s. She was a social worker, Worked for the government for years. She said she grew up without money. Maria was the first in her family to go to university. That's when she met Pedro, who was into politics. She and Pedro went all in on getting Hugo Chavez elected the first time he ran because he promised changes that Maria and Pedro believed in. Poor people getting access to university and healthcare and opportunities for a better life. They saw those changes happen, then over time saw them unraveling. Maduro Chavez's successor, Maria said she never liked and never voted for him in this election. She said she volunteered as a witness because she wants a different country for her kids and she believes in the opposition. So Maria trained to be a witness with a bunch of mostly other women, she said some retired like her, some lawyers meeting in someone's living room. As an overall plan, 600k had so many technological aspects, but the witnesses training focused on the most analogy lo fi part talking to other people inside a voting center.

[Pedro]

The training was about how to negotiate and how to really communicate and create harmony with people that were going to be there representing the regime and that we're going to have a certain disposition and just how to where to tighten and where to stretch. Like how to be flexible in the negotiation, being kind of in harmony with communication but not being pulled into submission. How to negotiate and how are we going to get what we need to get, which is the actas. That was my sole role. I was a witness at the table trained in how to get what we needed to get, which is the actas entonses. So what happens if you don't get the acta? So all these scenarios would be played out in the first four hours of that training of like, okay, if you don't get the acta, this is what you put into place. First of all, what are they telling you? Oh, the machine wasn't working or I can't get you the acta because of X reason. And at that moment you would be like, okay, I can be friendly and have a communication, but if I'm not getting the act, as I would tell the Pedros quote unquote, or someone like Pedro who's monitoring outside, I would say, hey, they don't want to bring us the actas. At that moment they had their own strategy and training on how to mobilize, which would involve either bringing lawyers or journalists or very courageous people to be like, this is the law. We need to put pressure on getting the actas.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Maria and other witnesses were being trained for essentially a mass act of civil obedience, following and insisting on the law. At the training, they got a pamphlet outlining election law and procedures that they would take with them on voting day and be prepared to wield as needed. For instance, in Venezuela, there Are military personnel at every voting center on election day. And Maria's training got into that specifically.

[Pedro]

And then we would act out different scenarios where like, we had to face the military, in this case the army. How to be on the one hand, very, very charming and very, you know, like friendly. And, you know, we're in this for the right reasons. We're all citizens and we're voting together and kind of be on the same page as citizens, shoulder to shoulder, but with the brochure in our hand, knowing the we're not here to negotiate the law. We're here to be in this process together, but making sure that we are following the law. So at first, you know, you're very friendly and you're moving toward this. But they would train us. If there's any deviation from what's stated in the brochure, then at that moment you would take out your brochure and say, hey, I'm eagle. We're not following the law. In this particular case. Look here.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

There are videos of witnesses in other parts of the country on election day who were locked out of their voting centers reading the law out loud, saying, let us in. Some never got in, but Maria got in without problems. This is her account of her experiences on voting day. We've corroborated as much as we can without exposing her. Polls opened at 6am she and Pedro got to the voting center around 4:15am Pedro would stay outside the voting center all day, rallying voters, keeping the peace, and being Maria's liaison to the rest of the 600k network. Inside, there were two tables with voting machines. Maria was the opposition witness at one table, and she had an ally, the woman who was the opposition witness at the other table. From Maria's description, the two of them spent the day at their voting center playing tag team chess. A CO obstacle course. Hurdle number one. Maria's first argument with the other side was about how many witnesses would be allowed inside the voting center. Every accredited witness has two backup witnesses.

[Pedro]

No, by law, they have to wait outside. Only the active witnesses are allowed inside. But one point, the government side wanted their backup witnesses inside, but they weren't allowed. So it was like a little bit of a bickering fight because the woman who was kind of running things, she was a Chavista.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Chavista, meaning here, a supporter of Maduro. Maduro is the successor to Hugo Chavez.

[Pedro]

So Chavista, a very older woman who was very arbitrary, very kind of not following the law. And this woman, me and my co witness from the other table Did a strategy where she was good cop and I was bad cop. And the reason we did that was because my co witness knew this woman from their neighborhood and from their life. So she couldn't be overtly kind of mean or just kind of overtly bad cop. So my co witness would be talking to her and be very friendly. And then I was kind of the complainer. And I was actively complaining, you know, to the point that, you know, they were like, well, you're really complaining a lot. And she was like, I complain, I'm not complaining. I'm following the law. That was the whole point. To fully understand the law and to be able to bring in the law in the moments where I saw that there was deviation from that election law.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Hurdle number two. On this election day, Maria's voting center had only two tables. Even though in past elections it's had more. Not only that.

[Pedro]

The way they distribute amongst the two tables is by age. So this I had never seen before that suddenly on one table they have everyone over 57. So why that matters is because suddenly if you don't have people that are of mixed ages, suddenly one table, if everyone is over 57, the voting time goes from one minute to like five minutes or more. So it was just like the slowpoke table.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Each vote requires a person's government issued id, their fingerprint, a choice on the voting machine, and a paper copy generated by the machine that the voter has to put in a box. So there are many points in the process where a person moving slowly can really gum things up. Maria suspected that putting all the old people in one line was a deliberate attempt to slow the process and discourage people from voting.

[Pedro]

You know, I could not actually intervene as a strategy in any way because my role was to be a witness. But what I could do do and what I was doing, I was complaining and complaining and complaining and you know, saying, hurry up, hurry up. Oh my God, these people, they put all the older adults here, we need to hurry up. But the strategy was to then tell all the Pedros, all the monitors, or tell my Pedro on the outside, this is what's happening. They put all the older people in one line. Please tell them to be patient.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Looking into this, I think it's likely this was just random chance that more older voters were concentrated at one voting machine. Voters are pre assigned to specific voting machines long before election day. But Maria still believes it was a deliberate attempt to slow down and discourage voting. Everyone. In Maria's account of this day, she just refers to by their title, like they're in a play. First, the Chavista. Next up, the soldier. There were actually three soldiers at the voting center. The soldiers are in voting centers, supposedly to guard the voting process. Maria focused on the one in charge, prodding him if she saw anything that went against what was outlined in the election law pamphlet she was holding all day. She was on him. Any small deviation from the official process. And she said in the middle of the day, she really got on his case because the line for the other voting machine stopped altogether. And she said it stayed stopped for more than two hours.

[Pedro]

And, you know, telling him, I need you to pay attention, and I need you to be on top of things. He directs himself toward me and says, senora, please stop talking to me that way. You can't talk to me that way. And then there was one point that it got so tense that he turned around and said, bueno, usteba, sero. What you're going to cause with all your complaining is that we closed down the voting center. And then I turned around and looked at him and said, then close it. You need. You need for big issues. You need big remedies. You need to close it. And you know what? You will know that you close it. It's on you, because you were not able to control the situation.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Maria, is it hard for you to be vocal like that, to stand up? Or is that how you usually are?

[Pedro]

So when you asked her, when you asked me, when you asked Maria, is this normal for you? She said, pedro, serie por que no, no estimating. Pedro laughs because this is purely a part of who I am. You know, I come from a very humble place in a place where, like, if you don't have a voice and you don't speak up, you don't move ahead. But I will say that my companera, the other witness from the other table, she was scared for me. She was trying to tell me to calm down. She's like, oh, my God, they're gonna close the centro because you're speaking up too much. And, you know, I had to be very vocal and be like, que losier? And they should close it. So speaking that way to a soldier is no small thing. But I felt like I had to. That it was my job. It was also good that I had my Pedro outside and that he was, you know, that allowed me to feel a certain confidence that I'm sure not every witness felt.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

There's a fervor in the way Maria describes her own vigilance that day that might sound familiar to Americans. Like in Other countries, stop the Steal movement, which also mobilized voters around the country to go to their voting center on election day with a copy of local election laws and their suspicion and their willingness to speak up. Venezuela's election was like that, and it wasn't at all. The politics in Venezuela don't really map onto a sort of, well, who are the Republicans and who are the democrats? Grid, the political party in power, has the word socialist in its name, but mainly it's an authoritarian government. The opposition is a coalition that ranges in economic ideas from center left to Margaret Thatcher, and it hasn't been in power for 25 years. Venezuela's voting system is very different from ours in the United States. Each state has different rules and procedures for voting. Different days and hours people are allowed to vote, different timelines for counting votes, different officials who certify results. In Venezuela, it's one system across the whole country, and one of the most important things they have is that for every vote, the voting machine produces a paper copy of the vote that the voter takes in hand and puts in a box at the voting center. And at the end of the day, about 30% of those boxes are randomly opened for a hand count of the paper ballots as a cross check on the machine's count. Witnesses watch this hand count often, not just the accredited witnesses. By law, anyone is allowed to watch the hand count in their voting center as long as there's enough room. And then at the end of the day, there's the ACTA, a summary of vote totals from the entire day. ACTAs look the same all over the country. They are a recognizable and agreed upon measure of voting results in Venezuela, each one with a unique identifier tying it to a specific voting center and voting machine. So Maria was at the voting center to keep an eye on the process, to complain, to make a fuss if she thought something was unfair or if the process was stalling out. But at the end of the voting day, if the law was followed, she would walk out, not just with a bunch of stories about what looked fishy, but with the actual results in her hand. The acta. The ACTA isn't about suspicions and observations and complaints. It doesn't raise questions about who won. It answers them.

[Nancy Updike]

The last hurdle of the day, and it's a big one. After the break. Stay with us.

[Ira Glass]

Support for this American life comes from. Indeed, people are driven by the search for better. But when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search match with indeed Use Indeed for scheduling, screening and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster. Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com American terms and conditions apply. Need to hire you need Indeed. Support for this American life comes from Capella University. Learning doesn't have to get in the way of life. With Capella's game changing flexpath learning format, you can set your own deadlines and learn on your own schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to earn your degree. Instead, enjoy learning your way and pursue your educational and career goals without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.

[Pedro]

Edu Throughline is a podcast where we.

[Nancy Updike]

Tell stories about a place shrouded in mystery, the past. And to really understand it, we take you there. Something happened to our collective psyche after the atom bomb.

[Pedro]

Listen to hear us reopen stories from.

[Nancy Updike]

The past and find clues to the.

[Pedro]

Present on Throughline, the history podcast from npr.

[Nancy Updike]

This American Life. Myra Class we are in the middle of Nancy Update's story about the Venezuelan election and the opposition's very elaborate attempt to get a real vote count. Nancy picks up where she left off.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

The last hurdle of the day came after voting closed. Maria calls the character in this part the bureaucrat, a woman from the electoral council who stepped in to deal with the voting machines. The machines finalize the numbers and transmit them to the electoral council. The data are encrypted and sent through a dedicated wireless phone line that is just for the voting data and is only accessible through the voting machines.

[Pedro]

And only this bureaucrat person can handle the machine. So the one assigned to our voting booth was very, you know, she was very professional, very technical. She didn't have opinions, doing her job. So from 6 to 7pm Basically, the bureaucrat is in charge of the machine, right? So what that means is that everyone's tired, no one is fighting anymore. The tension is like, it's like a release. There's nothing to do, there's nothing to fight about. It's just the bureaucrat and the machine. So that takes, let's say, an hour or two. And then the aberration begins. Suddenly, you know, the bureaucrat is sitting there and it's like, oh, we can't transmit the data. It's the signal. The machine can't process and transmit the data. It's the signal. It's the signal. And then it's clear that the data isn't transmitting in many, many voting centers. And there are People outside of her voting center and others pressuring the members of the voting center.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

The electoral council later blamed the interrupted transmission of voting results on a hack, the one they never provided credible evidence for. Maria, in her voting center, was watching the transmission problems in real time, standing next to the bureaucrat at the voting machine.

[Pedro]

I'm standing next to her, and she's trying and she's trying, and she's trying, and she can't get it to work. And then the soldier that I was fighting with, he starts to get tensed up. And then the Chavista other person, who's my companera's neighbor, she starts to get fired up after being tired. And then the people outside start to demand a hand count. And then the tension starts to rise all over again with this bureaucrat person basically saying, I can't transmit the results. I don't know what's happening, but I can't do it.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Maria said she couldn't get her copy of the acta until the machine transmitted the results. So this problem with the machine, this breakdown in transmission, led to a sort of slapstick routine inside her voting center.

[Pedro]

The moment that the data is not transmitting, we all start to help the bureaucrat to find signals. So we move the table from one side, we move the table to the other side. We try to kind of not touch the machine, but help her move the table to find the signal there, where, you know, we're all trying to help the bureaucrat find some kind of signal so that the machine can transmit the data. She was trying to get signal like one would on their cell phone when there's no cell phone coverage, helping her find a solution to this issue.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Oh, my God.

[Pedro]

Si. Muy loco.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Muy loco.

[Pedro]

Solo que viv lo por quesino no sentiende. Only living it. Can you fully understand it? Because it's just too loco. It's too crazy.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Versions of this happened at other voting centers, including people moving the machines outside to see if they could get a signal there. Maria could only spend so much time on this table moving craziness, though.

[Pedro]

I went into robot mode because my role was to get the acta, the voting tally. The acta, the voting tally. So all I could think of was, acta, acta, acta. I'm not leaving this place without an acta. And then even at one point, I went up to the bureaucrat and I said, hey, you know, she's like, and I'm playing dumb a little. Sometimes I get a little bit lost, you know, and like, here I took out you know, here's the pamphlet in the brochure we were given with the law. Here are the instructions. And then here it says that you're going to give me the voting tally, correct? You're going to give me the actor. And she said, of course, si, si, si, claro. Of course I am. And then I could relax. But there were other people where they closed the voting center. And even my Pedro went to another voting center where they completely closed it down at this point and refused to give people actas. And people had to go mobilize and protest outside of the voting centers. Luckily, that was not the case in my voting center, because I was like a robotic soldier next to this bureaucrat.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Finally the data were transmitted and the results at Maria's voting center were official. It was a blowout.

[Pedro]

And we all looked at each other, the soldier, the bureaucrat, the chavistas. All of us just looked at each other knowingly that the opposition had won. I finally get my ACT that really, it's a long paper, like a chorizo, like a sausage. You see all the numbers and all the data. But to be honest, I didn't even really have time to look at it closely because I handed it over like kind of like a relay race. It really felt like being part of a movie. And so I give it to my companera and my companera rushes out of the door with it. I didn't even take a moment to process so much because I was just so rushed to get the ACTA out into the public view. We didn't really know why we had to hand it over so quickly at the moment, we just did.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Maria's euphoria was short lived. The electoral council, known as the cna, made their announcement just after midnight, saying Maduro had won.

[Pedro]

And then as I was leaving, my sister called the one who I told you worries about me. And she said, look, I'm watching tv. And the sene says that the results are different, that they're in. I immediately hung up on her. Oh wow. I immediately hung up on her. I had done my job and I was on such a high and it was such a victorious moment for me that I just didn't want to feel like hearing that. I didn't want to feel defeated at that moment.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

On election night, Venezuelans uploaded videos recorded outside different voting centers all around the country. A similar scene repeated over and one person in front of a crowd at night, reading the voting center's results out loud, sometimes holding the ACTA and using a cell phone light to read the tiny print straight from that announcing totals for President Maduro and for the opposition candidate Edmundo Gonzalez Arrutia. This is a video from Lawyera. There's a woman reading results from a piece of paper, shouting to the crowd. Table 2. Edmundo 303 Maduro 194. Table 4. Edmundo 342 Maduro 162 Mesa Cuatro Edmundo.

[Nancy Updike]

Maduro Una Ceylo.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Hundreds of these videos. The opposition website had actas from 83% of the voting machines in the country. The numbers showed the opposition had won 7.3 million votes. Maduro got 3.3 million. According to these numbers, it was 2 to 1 in favor of the opposition. Even if Maduro got every vote in the remaining 17% of the ACTAs, he still couldn't win. And since the actas showed data down to the voting machine, they also showed that Maduro lost in lots of places he had won in the past. There was a frenzy of people after the election, combing through the website with the actas and the vote totals. Were the numbers real? Were the acta's real? The Washington Post looked into the website's data and concluded, yes, the actas were genuine and accurate. The Associated Press also concluded the ACTA's information was accurate. Another website collected the videos people had uploaded reading the results on election night, geolocated them and matched them to the actas from the voting center where they were from. Academics in Venezuela, Brazil and the United States analyzed the website's actas and totals and concluded, yes, they're real. As for the Electoral Council in Venezuela, the cna, the website has been down almost continuously since the election. We reached someone there by phone. When we asked for an email address to send questions, the person who answered the phone said, we don't do email. When we asked for a spokesperson we could contact to ask our questions, they said, there isn't one at the moment. Maduro has called the opposition effort to create their own vote tally quote a couple. The Electoral Council still hasn't published voting machine totals to back up their claim that Maduro won. It's as if what 600k did was so decisive, the government's not even bothering to argue the case and propose an alternate set of facts. Instead, in the absence of evidence, they're relying on force. After the election, there were mass detentions. Over 1,500 people. According to the Venezuelan human rights group for Opinel, the UN put out a report last month about the post election detentions and violence. The Report said people charged with terrorism and incitement to hatred after the election included opposition political leaders, individuals who simply participated in the protests, persons who sympathized with the opposition or criticized the government, journalists who covered the protests, lawyers for those detained, human rights defenders and members of the academic community. End quote. A member of the UN Fact Finding Mission said in a statement that out of the people detained after the election, many were subjected to torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, as well as sexual violence which was perpetrated against women and girls, but also against men. The opposition candidate for president, Edmundo Gonzalez Urutia, fled Venezuela and got asylum in Spain. The leader of the opposition, Maria Corina Machado, is in hiding. I sent an email asking about the UN report to multiple email addresses for the Permanent Mission of Venezuela to the UN and got no response. An email we sent to the Ministry for Communication and Information came back with a reply saying our email had been blocked. Nicolas Maduro is still the president and in January, if nothing changes, he will take office for a third six year term. To state the obvious, elections aren't democracy. They're not enough. Venezuela's great voting system was created under Hugo Chavez after he was elected, and over the course of successive elections, Chavez ended presidential term limits. He consolidated control over the Supreme Court and the military. The legislature is no longer a check on presidential power, and now Maduro has all of that at his disposal as he tries to put the results of this election behind him. I asked people I talked to for this story, what is the value of this huge effort by the opposition to document the outcome of the election if it doesn't lead to political change? What does it mean to try and create the conditions for certainty about an electoral result and have that not carry the day? For some Venezuelans I talked to, it was simple. This effort showed that a majority of voters in this country want a change in government. And it showed the government pretending that's not true. What the opposition effort led to is a record, and from that record a broad consensus about the election. Even among Venezuelans, who may have very different ideas about the country's problems and solutions, its history and its future, there is value in knowing whether the person who holds the most power in your country is there because a majority voted for him, or in spite of the fact that a majority voted against him.

[Nancy Updike]

Nancy Updike. Her story was produced by Anayance Diaz Cortez. Anayance was also the interpreter for Maria's interview. The story was edited by Laura Starcheski. Just this week, for the first time, President Biden started referring to the candidate whose 600k showed got the most votes, opposition leader Edmundo Gonzalez Urutia, as the president elect of Venezuela. Coming up, an entire class of animals calls for a recount. They want an end to the lies about them. I mean, okay, I guess it's human beings who want to recount, not the animals themselves. But you get the idea anyway. That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

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[Nancy Updike]

I D I.com this message comes from our sponsor, Grainger. This is the story of the 1. As a maintenance engineer, he hears things differently. To the untrained ear, everything on his shop floor might sound fine, but he can hear gears grinding or a belt slipping. So he steps in to fix the problem at hand before it gets out of hand. And he knows Granger's got the right product. He needs to get the job done, which is music to his ears. Call click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. This is American Life from Ira Glass. Today's program, the official unofficial record. Stories about people trying to set the record straight against great odds, real and perceived. We have arrived at Act 2 of our show, Act 2. Meanwhile in America. I thought this was an interesting sign of the times. It started out in a very familiar scene and then went into a direction I did not expect. It happened on election night. My coworker Zoe Chase and I were in Michigan in separate locations. It was late, but nobody knew yet who was going to win. And Zoe was at what would later become the Trump victory party in Michigan. And she ambled up to some people she's talked to in the past, Republican activists, including Todd Gilman. Now we're just talking about when the cheat's gonna happen in Detroit.

[F]

Are you serious?

[Nancy Updike]

Cheat's gonna happen at 2 in the morning? Already a report of a truck with California plates showing up in the TCF Center. I don't know if you could catch that. He said the cheat is gonna happen at 2 in the morning and that a truck with California Plates showed up at the convention center where they were at that very moment counting absentee ballots for Detroit. Online. There was a video of three supposed culprits carrying suspicious packages into some building at 11pm it's posted on, it's posted on Twitter.

[F]

I gotta tell Ira because he's down there. He's watching for the seal to come in.

[Nancy Updike]

Well, yeah, tell him that. The word has it a truck with California planes showed up. But why is the truck showing up this time of night? All about it.

[Pedro]

Should be there already.

[Nancy Updike]

All right, let's do a quick camera cut to the convention center. Nice. Wow. Good music too. Okay, so I'm there in the convention center that night with hundreds of other very tired looking people. Not exactly watching the steel come in, but with someone who was on high alert for any possible vote stealing shenanigans. One of the lead Republican poll challengers at the convention center, a guy named Jeff Schaper. So Zoe told me what you just heard about mysterious ballots arriving at the convention center at 11pm on a truck with California plates. And this next moment, the one where I told Jeff about it, is the moment that I thought was so interesting. And to get its significance, I should tell you first that Jeff Shaper is a serious election skeptic. Back in 2020, he was one of hundreds of people who rushed to this very spot, the Detroit Convention center, certain that Democrats were here stealing the election for Joe Biden. Maybe. Remember the crowds in Detroit chanting stop the count, stop the count, stop the count. Okay, so that's where Jeff was back then. A Republican led investigation in the state Senate later found no fraud, no harm to the vote count in Detroit. But Jeff is still convinced to this day the Democrats were in there throwing illegal ballots into the system.

[G]

Now you gotta understand that in 2020 a lot of ballots were put out into the public. So they had a store of ballots, progressives that they could use.

[Nancy Updike]

Use for fraud, he means.

[G]

That is what I understand and that is what I believe.

[Nancy Updike]

Just started to work on election stuff full time after that. Became the number two person at an activist group called Michigan Fair Elections that does all sorts of lawsuits and election monitoring and public education. That's how he ended up on election night 2024 as one of the lead Republican election challengers in Detroit. The location in Michigan, I think it is fair to say that Republicans were most suspicious about. Before he retired, Jeff was a systems guy in the auto industry. And he's got the air of a very sincere dad, patiently helping you with your homework. Yaso likes A good tagline, educate, investigate, litigate. That one came up in a bunch of stories.

[G]

He told me my goal again, remember, investigate, educate, and if need be, litigate.

[Nancy Updike]

So that's Jeff. And here's the moment that I thought was interesting when I told Jeff this breaking news about the trucks with California plates at 11pm this election, skeptic was not having it.

[G]

How to say this? If you don't know the process, you see something and yell, you know what that is? And looking at it, that looks like it's an election board.

[Nancy Updike]

He tells me that 11pm is when you would expect ballots to show up at the convention center. And there's three supposed boat stealers. In the video posted on X, they're carrying a white box, a red bag, and another box.

[G]

You see these white boxes? Okay, That's a tabulator inside. Okay, you see those gray metal boxes? Those have the ballots in them. And then they have the poll book, which is in a red sealed bag. And that's normal process.

[Nancy Updike]

It's interesting that you activists have become such experts that you're correcting misinformation that other people are putting out now.

[G]

Well, back in 2021, we did no squat and it was a process of learning. We learned, I should say, for all.

[Nancy Updike]

The factual information that I saw Jeff give out on election night, he and his group do also spread information that does not seem as credible. Like, for example, the idea that Michigan's voter rolls, which, like other states have a lot of inactive voters on them, are a real problem and might be used for widespread fraud. Michigan's Secretary of State disputes that. He and I talked about it. Neither convinced the other. On election day, Jeff and the other Republican poll challengers that I talked to, they were pretty happy with what they were seeing. Throughout the day, they all said the same things to me, that Detroit had adjusted a few procedural things in handling ballots since 2020, and those fixes were working. Ballots were counted in batches of 50 by small teams. Nobody moved on till there was agreement about each batch. It was a good, clean count.

[G]

All I can say is what I've witnessed, witnessed the voting process has been orderly, organized, invalid.

[Nancy Updike]

And what's the mood inside between the Democratic and Republican vote watchers?

[G]

Calm and cordial. Yeah, I mean, there's not much to argue about. There's been very few needs for adjudication.

[Nancy Updike]

Adjudication to settle disputes. Jeff is involved in those because he's one of the lead Republican challengers. He says in eight days of counting.

[G]

I've seen adjudications maybe 15, 16, 17 times.

[Nancy Updike]

15 times or so.

[G]

Out of how many votes is that 78,000 processed.

[Nancy Updike]

If Harris wins, say, in Michigan, would you believe the result?

[G]

Yes, I would. Based on what I've seen here.

[Nancy Updike]

That is a really remarkable change, that in 2020, you're saying you don't believe the result, and you're saying this time around, even if Harris wins, you're inclined to think that you're going to believe the result.

[G]

That's right, I do. Yes.

[Nancy Updike]

He and other Republicans said this to me throughout the day, well before the results came in. And I'll be honest, I am not sure I believe they all would have stuck by that if Harris won. After all, last time, it seems like nothing happened that could throw an election. Many court cases and a bipartisan state Senate investigation found no evidence of a steal, but they found all kinds of evidence and continue to believe it. But this time, Trump won. And the election doubters have been pretty quiet. Late in the evening, or I guess it was the early morning, after it became clear that Michigan and the rest of the swing states were going to go for Trump, I asked Jeff if he felt like this was partly his doing, like his years of work on election monitoring had paid off in an election that he could trust. Did he feel a sense of victory?

[G]

Not victory. Satisfaction. Satisfaction. Satisfaction. And the job is not done. Tomorrow we go back, we start working on the voter rolls that are bloated. Our work is not finished here. This is a satisfying moment. It's just like a football game or a basketball game. You have one day to enjoy it, then you prepare for the next game.

[Nancy Updike]

This is not going away. The doubts about elections in our country, the scrutinizing and arguing over them. It was interesting in the wake of Trump's very solid victory, that it was mostly the Democrats you saw on social media wondering if the election was stolen. There wasn't a ton of that. It was a tiny whisper of a complaint compared to the nonstop multimedia barrage of videos and charts we got in 2020 from Republicans. But if the election had been more of a real squeaker and Harris lost, I bet we would have heard a lot more of that. It is easy to see the appeal of that kind of doubt. Fact 3. Oh, what a hangled web we weave. Okay, quick heads up before we start this next story that it mentions a part of the male anatomy. Take that under advisement, pro and con. Decide what you're going to do. It is not what the story is about. The story is about a creepy and dangerous creature that does all kinds of terrible things. It's also about somebody who takes issue with every word that I just said about that creature. And they want a recount. They want a reconsideration. They want us all to examine the facts and stop believing the fake news about this creature. Lily Sullivan met up with this person to hear her out.

[H]

This person is my friend Kelsey Padgett. And if you run into her at a dinner party or a bar, maybe you happen to be standing behind her in the security line at the airport, she might ask you this.

[F]

What do you know about black widow spiders? What do you know?

[H]

Okay, I know that they're very poisonous. Like, they have a really bad bite. Like a bite that can kill you. And. And I know that the female, after mating, like, kills the male and eats him.

[F]

Fantastic. That is exactly what most people know about black widow spiders, and you're totally wrong.

[H]

And this is Kelsey's mission to expose the lies about this spider being a wanton murderess, correct the record, and restore her good name. Kelsey used to work as a park ranger in New York, by the way. She also used to report science stories. And over the years, she's amassed an absurd amount of information about these spiders.

[F]

So let me tell you, I'll start with the black widow name. The idea that the black widow eats her husband, or the spider they just mated with, that she, you know, is a. Is a murderer dressed all in black, mourning a husband that they just killed.

[H]

Kelsey says the female eating the male. Okay, this has happened, but very rarely, and it's barely a noticeable trait if you look around at what the rest of spiders are doing.

[F]

Many species of baby spiders, which are called spiderlings, often eat their siblings right after hatching. And some species of spiderlings even eat their own mother after hatching. And sexual cannibalism, which is like eating your mate after he has done the deed with you, is very common in the spider world. But you know who is not common that much for is black widow spiders. They only do this in captivity. It's practically never been seen in the wild in the Northern Hemisphere.

[H]

Meanwhile, the male spider, he's no Mr. Rogers. Check out what he does.

[F]

So the male black widow will sometimes go around to the female's web and sort of clip off little parts of it so that she has no exit routes. And then he will go up next to her and, like, calmly, like, sort of caress her. And then he throws a web of his own over her to then copulate with her. Oh, and the scientists have called that web the bridal veil. Which is so not what that should be called. Are you serious?

[G]

Oh, my God.

[F]

But this, it strikes me as a very weird behavior. And if I were a person naming spiders and saw that sometimes the female ate the male after eating, but also that the male does this crazy thing and like ties down the lady, basically I might name the spider after that. But why didn't they? Because they were men and they thought it was exceptional that the female killed the male. Oh my gosh. Can't have that.

[H]

A lot of species of spiders do this bridal veil thing. One theory is the one Kelsey lays out, that the male's trapping the female. There's another newer one too, which is more accepted by scientists now that it's more seduction than a trap, as the scientists put it when they explained it to me. It's bondage. Yep, spiders do bondage. Myth number two, that her bite is fatal.

[F]

So from 1950 to 1959, the data we have says that there were 63 deaths in the US from Black Widow spiders.

[H]

Interestingly, most of the black widow bite victims back then seemed to be male. In an older study, they were 80% male. Here's a theory as to why.

[F]

So most of the reported black widow bites from this time happened in what were called outdoor privies, outhouses. So black widow spiders, they enjoy dark, low, to the ground sort of places. They especially love to make their cobwebs between two objects. And so because bugs like stinky places, you know, like imagine flies, right? There's flies in outhouses that it makes a great, like food supply, right? Uh huh. And to get to the stinky stuff, you got to go through the bowl, right?

[H]

Right, right.

[F]

So putting your web there is excellent. So imagine this. It's 1950s, you're a dude, you need to go number two. You make your way out to the outhouse, you sit down and your junk. Hangles there.

[H]

Hangles. Yep, that's what she said.

[F]

And as it does, it hits the cobweb and the usually non aggressive black widow instinctually runs over and bites down on the new creature that has landed on its web.

[H]

Oh my God. Okay, that is like kind of terrifying though.

[F]

It is, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. There's like not even. You can't even imagine a better situation tailored to getting bit by this like usually very non aggressive spider. They don't come after you.

[H]

And the statistic that you saw how many bites were on penises?

[F]

The majority were on penises.

[H]

Oh my God. She thinks all these penis bites happening so regularly might be one of the reasons there were so many deaths back then.

[F]

The skin there is less thick and there are lots of nerves there. Right. And this is a neurotoxin venom. So.

[H]

Oh, oh, oh.

[F]

Perhaps being bit on the genitals sends the venom going into your body in, like, a faster or stronger way than, say, if you were bit on a callus on your foot.

[H]

Anyway, the point is, once more people had indoor plumbing along with improved access to medical care. The numbers, which weren't that high to begin with, they've gone way down. And in the last several decades, there's no record of anyone dying from a black widow spider. No one. In fact, black widow is usually a pretty shy spider. Scientists have even done tests where they poke and prod her, trying to elicit a bite. And she turns to other defenses first, tries to run away, Curls up into a little ball no bigger than a quarter. Sometimes she throws silk at the danger to try to escape. The bite is her last resort.

[F]

So, yeah, I think that the world should know that they've been lied to and that this, the black widow spider's not that bad.

[H]

And Kelsey has a proposal to set the record straight. Just change the spider's name. Easy. Get rid of the name that mires her in all this twisted lore she doesn't deserve.

[F]

I think that's what it looks like renaming her. Black widow spiders were not always called black widow spiders. They've had many different names. Some of the names are the hourglass spider, the T bar spider. The Miwok people indigenous to California, called the spider pocomu.

[H]

The one she likes best, though.

[F]

The shoe button spider.

[H]

So cute.

[F]

The shoe button spider, yeah.

[H]

She looks like a button after all. A little round one. So I decided to test out this new name on the people I thought were the best suited to judge.

[Ira Glass]

It was like my whole chest was in a vice grip.

[H]

I spoke with eight people who'd been bitten, talked to 11 others over email. Here are some of them.

[Nancy Updike]

I imagine, like the worst cramp that you've ever had in your life.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Like a charlie horse in your leg, but that being my whole back.

[Ira Glass]

Like a really bad charlie horse that doesn't stop and envelops your whole chest, right? I was, like, twisting up my body and I was, like, holding onto the side panels of the vehicle and bracing myself when it was happening.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

And so, weirdly enough, I kind of wondered, like, is this, like, what it.

[Ira Glass]

Feels like to go into labor?

[H]

Not everyone who's bit has a bad reaction like this. And again, bites are very rare and a lot of the time, they're mild, but when it's bad, it's bad. So I ran Kelsey's idea by them. Do you think we should rename the Black Widow spider the shoe button spider? 13 people weighed in. No one was into it.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Oh, my God. I do not. I do not like that at all. No offense to the people who named that the Shoe Button Spider back in the old days, but that is a very lame name.

[H]

This is Jenna. She got bit eight years ago in a porta potty at Coachella.

[Pedro]

Have you ever seen a black widow spider?

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Like, they look cool, you know, they.

[Pedro]

Are sort of like, sort of a.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Spider you shouldn't mess with and they probably have a bad rap. But I do like Black Widow. Like, it gives it some power.

[Pedro]

And I think those spiders definitely have power.

[H]

Someone else who'd been bit told me, honestly, I think Black Widow is an excellent name. And were I a spider, I would feel really cool with a name like that.

[Nancy Updike]

Lily Sullivan is one of the producers of our program. Kelsey Pageant is the co host of the podcast Fierce Rivalries. About big rivalries in history, but also gossipy petty feuds of all sorts. It is available wherever you get your podcast.

[G]

Baby, write this down Take a little.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Note to remind you in case you.

[G]

Didn'T know Tell yourself I love you.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

And I don't want you to go.

[Pedro]

Write this down.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Take my words and.

[G]

Read them every day Keep them close.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

By don't you let them fade away.

[G]

So you'll remember what I forgot to.

[Nancy Updike]

Say Write this down World program was produced today by Zoe Chase. People put together today include Michael Comete, Emmanuel Jochi, Henry Larson, Seth Lynn, Kathryn Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Christina Olias, Nadia Raymond, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, Alyssa Shipp, Lily Sullivan, Christopher Sutala and Matt Tierney. Our managing editor is Sara Abdurahman. Our senior editor is David Kessenbaum. Our executive editor is Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks today to Tim Daly, Dorothy Kronek, Ana Lisa Pineda, Javier Corrales, Veronica Balleta Flores, Francisco Toro and Francisco Rodriguez. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by prx, the public radio exchange. To become a this American Life partner and get all kinds of bonus content, bonus episodes, AMAs ad, free listening, plus hundreds of greatest hits episodes right in your podcast feed. Go to ThisAmericanLife.org LifePartners. That link is also in the show notes. Thanks to life partners Jahan Gibson, Priya Elizabeth Harmon, Kelly Shereen and Sally Sloan. Thanks as always to our program's co founder, Mr. Tori Malatia. You know. He says that every weekend he sits there listening to his local public radio station.

[Pedro]

My voice comes on and then the aberration begins.

[Nancy Updike]

I'm Eric Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American life.

[G]

Oh, I love you and I don't want you to go.

[F]

Baby.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

Write this down.

[Nancy Updike]

Next week on the podcast of this American Life. Yellowstone Park. Two wolf packs charging at each other. One led by a massive, powerful wolf, the other led by an old wolf, much smaller, near the end of his life.

[Ana Vanessa Herrero]

They got to within 40 yards, 30.

[Nancy Updike]

Yards, 20 yards, 10 yards. And I knew just in a moment it was all going to be over. The wolves leading the packs about to face off. One of them raised the other. What happens next week on the podcast on your local public radio station? This message comes from Bolin Branch. Bolin Branch's best sale of the year is right now. Try the organic cotton sheets loved by millions. Go to bolinbranch.com and use code NPR for 25% off everything. Limited time only exclusions apply. See site for details.