885: Bless This Mess

Summary

This American Life – Episode 885: "Bless This Mess"

Date: April 12, 2026
Hosted by: Emmanuel Berry (sitting in for Ira Glass)
Main Guests: Nicole Hill, Jason Reynolds, Laurence Fishburne
Theme: Exploring erased, overlooked, and messy histories—particularly those of Black Americans—through personal stories, archival drama, and big feelings.

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Episode Overview

This episode, “Bless This Mess,” excavates the “messy” stories left out of sanitized American histories—stories about Black lives' complexities, drama, and resilience, both celebrated and erased. Host Emmanuel Berry and featured guest Nicole Hill (host of “Our Ancestors Were Messy”) dive deep into lost narratives, with a centerpiece on the rise, fall, and shadowy legacy of iconic couple Paul and Eslonda (Essie) Robeson; plus, Laurence Fishburne reads a legendary letter from a freedman to his former enslaver. The episode interrogates how history is constructed, who gets erased, and the emotional costs of lost legacies—mixing laughter, gossip, pain, and resistance.

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Key Discussion Points & Segments

I. Formative Black Movie Obsessions and Gaps

[00:00–06:13]

• Emmanuel Berry and Nicole Hill bond over their middle-school obsession with classic Hollywood movies—and the ways Black presence in those films was both enticing and troubling.
• Nicole recalls her realization, as a child, that seeing Black characters often meant seeing harmful or shameful stereotypes:
  • Notable Quote:
    “I remember the first time I noticed that I didn’t want to see a black person in the films because of the way they were gonna show up, which was Gone with the Wind… I just remember feeling really ashamed of like, that’s what I would have been.”
    — Nicole Hill (03:34)
• Nicole’s curiosity led her to Black newspapers’ archives to “follow those characters home” and uncover rich, complex Black dramas and lives omitted from Hollywood:
  • Advice columns, community gossip, political debates, and love triangles in Black press (i.e. “Court of Afro Relations” column)

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II. How History Gets Sanitized

[06:13–08:06]

• Emmanuel touches on contemporary arguments around “restoring truth and sanity” to American history—i.e., excising “mess.”
• Rejects the urge to scrap the uncomfortable, asserting the need to know granular, sometimes ugly, truths.

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III. Act One – The Was-it Couple: Paul and Essie Robeson

[08:06–27:10]
Nicole Hill’s “Our Ancestors Were Messy” (live episode adaptation)

A. Meet Cute & Romantic Origins

[10:18–15:09]

• Nicole and guest Jason Reynolds reimagine the Robesons’ first meeting in 1920s Harlem—a comedy of opposites:
  • Essie: Elite D.C. daughter, Columbia science student, wild party host, dating a doctor.
  • Paul: Star athlete, law student, actor, the toast of Harlem; dating many women.
• Pop-Casting Fun: Who should play Essie? “A young Halle Berry” (Jason, 13:27)
• Their intense friendship shifts to love, despite friends’ warnings: “They also want an unconventional arrangement where instead of man and wife, they are going to be equals.” (Nicole, 15:00)

B. Marriage, Partnership, and Celebrity

[15:09–21:13]

• Paul, the son of a man born enslaved, aspires to help build post-slavery Black prosperity; Essie becomes the first Black woman to lead a Columbia Hospital lab, then pushes Paul into acting.
• Memorable Moment: Essie coaches, manages, and champions Paul’s talents, urging him to give up law for performance—a move Jason reveres as a testament to “love and support” (17:02–18:20)
  • Quote: “She deserves a round of applause… What an incredible example of love and support.” — Jason Reynolds (17:02)

C. Roaring Success and Personal Mess

[21:13–27:10]

• Paul’s star rises; Essie and he travel Europe, enjoy Black bohemia, have a son—Paul Robeson Jr.—but infidelity mars their marriage.
• Open Marriage & Drama: Paul asks Essie to “open up” their marriage (to justify his affairs); public and gossipy fallout ensues.
  • Essie pens a sharp biography—part tribute, part roast—exposing his flaws, causing Paul to demand divorce; later, they reconcile and promise a lifetime partnership but with new, explicit arrangements.

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IV. Act Two – Political Activism and Consequences

[29:06–47:00]

A. The Robesons in the World: Global Politics, Communism, and Hope

[29:06–35:56]

• Paul and Essie emerge as major anti-fascist, anti-racist figures, attending rallies for Ethiopia, advocating for African independence.
• Trips to the USSR: Enthralled by the Soviet Union’s promises of racial equality—Paul sings spirituals both in English and Russian, receives rapturous treatment.
  • Nicole and Jason discuss the poignancy of being “treated like equals” abroad, while risking everything at home.

B. Growing Suspicion & State Repression

[35:56–41:15]

• Their support for Communism and the USSR earns them state surveillance—CIA and FBI open files on both.
• Turning Point: In 1949, Paul is misquoted as advocating for Black violence against the US in support of the Soviet Union; it goes viral and they become pariahs.
  • Nicole: “Paul’s viral moment… has big consequences for him and his family. They’re now targets of the US government, and a coordinated effort to discredit… and ultimately erase him from every corner of public life begins.” (38:05)

C. Erasure & the Toll of Blacklisting

[41:15–47:00]

• State Department revokes the Robesons’ passports; they are blacklisted, archival records destroyed, their accomplishments erased from history—even from Rutgers, his alma mater.
• Testimony & Defiance: Paul’s contemptuous, defiant congressional hearing becomes legendary (“I’m not being tried for whether I am a communist. I’m being tried for fighting for the rights of my people…” — Jason as Paul, 40:49)
• Paul's mental health crisis in later years—Paulie (their son) suspects CIA and MI6 involvement (MKUltra), a detail that rattles Jason (“I think they poisoned him… for his son to get sick, too. Yeah, come on, man.” (Jason, 45:11)).
• On Erasure:
  • Nicole: “It just makes me sad to know that that’s possible. It feels like it should be impossible to erase a legacy of that size, but it wasn’t, which means it probably still isn’t.” (46:20)
  • Jason: “You say we forgot. We didn’t forget. We never knew… If you can’t beat me… The only thing left to get me is to make it so that I never existed… turn me into a ghost.” (47:00)

D. The Enduring Power of Black Archives

[48:00–49:56]

• Nicole concludes with a reflection on discovering this history through relentless archival research:
  • “We have the power to articulate our lived experience in such a way that people all around the world rise up and say this is wrong and join movements and fights for people they’ve never met… and that is by design.” (48:21–49:56)

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V. Interlude: Paul Robeson’s Lost Song

[50:06–51:00]

• Airs a rare Paul Robeson song, “Glory, glory, hallelujah,” resurrected from obscurity.

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VI. Act Three – The Letter of Jordan Anderson

[51:00–57:10]

• Laurence Fishburne delivers a live reading of Jordan Anderson’s 1865 letter, responding with sharp wit and righteous accounting to his former master’s request that he return to work for him.
• Memorable Excerpt:
  • “I served you faithfully for 32 years and Mandy 20 years. At $25 a month… our earnings would amount to $11,680. Add the interest… Please send the money by Adams Express…” (Fishburne as Anderson, 54:36)
• The letter is both biting and profoundly moving—a blueprint for resistance couched in politeness.

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VII. Coda: On Museums and National Memory

[57:10–59:53]

• Emmanuel recounts a moment at the National Museum of African American History and Culture, reading the phrase, “Forged by slavery,” and realizing how loaded and embattled even objective history has become.
  • Quote: “It wasn’t about what I knew to be true, but what’s allowed to be true in this country right now.” (58:50)
• The episode ends with a spiritual: “Did my Lord deliver Daniel?”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Black Movie Escapism and Pain:
  “I don’t want to see a Black person in the films because… they were always serving, they were always poor. They were always versions of myself that maybe I feared.” — Nicole Hill (02:40–03:08)

• On Partnership:
  “She deserves a round of applause… What an incredible example of love and support.” — Jason Reynolds (17:02)

• On Erasure:
  “If you can’t beat me at any of the things… the only thing left to get me is to make it so that I never existed, right? Is to turn me into a ghost.” — Jason Reynolds (47:00)

• On Archival Power:
  “We have the power to articulate our lived experience… and that is by design.” — Nicole Hill (49:56)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | Key Content | |------------|-----------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–06:13| Black classic movie obsession| Nicole & Emmanuel discuss representation and gaps | | 06:13–08:06| Sanitizing messy histories | “Restoring truth and sanity” critique | | 08:06–27:10| Act 1: The Robesons’ rise | “Our Ancestors Were Messy” on Paul & Essie Robeson | | 29:06–47:00| Act 2: Activism & Erasure | The Robesons’ politics, blacklisting, and legacy | | 51:00–57:10| Jordan Anderson’s letter | Laurence Fishburne reads a legendary freedmen’s letter| | 57:10–59:53| Blacksonian reflection | Emmanuel at the National Museum of African American History|

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, curious, and warm—a blend of intimate storytelling, humor, reverence, and righteous anger.
• Ranges from gossipy banter (“He was dirty Mackin”) to sobering historical argument and mournful reflection.

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Memorable, Shareable Moments

• Nicole reflecting on research:
  “And then what became this question that drove Nicole? …What was the Black version of the diva on Diva Cheesecake Showdown, whose passions and jealousies were people gossiping about?” (03:34–04:41)
• Jason’s advice for Essie in her marital mess:
  “I only got toxic advice in this moment. …You’re gonna have to go and figure out how to find your own peace and happiness if you’re gonna keep this marriage together.” (24:32–25:16)
• Fishburne’s reading of the $11,680 invoice for unpaid labor.

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Essential Takeaways

• Black history is lived in complexities—gossip, romance, activism, and error—erased by both Hollywood and official records, but traceable via Black archives and oral histories.
• The Robesons were icons erased by America’s anti-communist and racist backlash, whose love story intertwined with culture, politics, betrayal, and enduring resistance.
• Sanitizing history is an act of power. Recovery requires curiosity, archival digging, storytelling, and defiance.
• Legacy can be destroyed not just by physical violence but by deletion, redaction, and forgetting—a fate that, as the episode warns, still threatens vital histories today.

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Further Listening/Reading

• Nicole Hill’s “Our Ancestors Were Messy” podcast (especially the two-parter on the Robesons)
• The “Letters Live” YouTube channel for historical correspondences
• Paul Robeson’s own memoir and archival materials (when available)

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This summary is a guide for listeners and researchers, capturing the tone, depth, and arc of an episode that brings forgotten messiness back into American memory.

Transcript

[Emmanuel Berry]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Hulu. From the executive producers of the Handmaid's Tale comes the Testaments, a new Hulu original series based on the novel by Margaret Atwood. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. For bundle subscribers, terms apply. From WBEZ Chicago, it's this American Life. I'm Emmanuel Berry, sitting in for Hour Glass. As a middle schooler, there was always one channel I wanted to watch. Tcm, the Turner Classic Movie Channel. An entire channel dedicated to old movies from Hollywood's golden age. I loved these films. The Lady, Eve on the town, Mr. Smith goes to Washington. Shout out to my boy, Jimmy Stewart. I was fascinated by the dramatics, the over the top slaps, the sultry looks, the glamorous makeup and hairstyles. To my delight, I recently learned that I was not the only black middle schooler spending her spare time glued to this channel. Nicole Hill was also sad.

[Nicole Hill]

Anything with Bette Davis, I was like, her eyes are so big and she's so bad, and I, like, need to watch everything that she does. Marlon Brando was my first really big crush, and Guys and Dolls was my obsession. And I used to, like, every Friday night, God bless my mom and my aunt, I would invite them up to my room and we would do a viewing of Guys and Dolls, like, every single Friday. And I would share new facts that I had learned. Like what? Okay, so, I mean, this is like a very basic fact, but Marlon Brando and Frank Sinatra hated each other. And there's this scene where Frank Sinatra has to eat cheesecake, and he really hates cheesecake. And so Marlon Brando keeps messing up the scene so that Frank Sinatra has to keep eating the cheesecake. And I was like, they are so dramatic. Oh, my God. The behind the scenes, whenever I talk

[Emmanuel Berry]

with Nicole, she always has some fact like this. You mention some historical figure, an actor, heck, even a mutual friend, and she'll tell you some obscure detail that you've never heard before. She's always clocking these things. I think it's why, as a kid, she noticed something about these movies that I never did.

[Nicole Hill]

I remember the first time I noticed that I didn't want to see a black person in the films because of the way they were gonna show up, which was Gone with the Wind. And I remember not knowing anything about Hattie McDaniel's history.

[Emmanuel Berry]

Hattie McDaniel plays Mammy, an enslaved house servant.

[Nicole Hill]

I just remember feeling really ashamed of, like, that's what I would have been. I was going to these movies as a form of Escapism. And then whenever black people showed up in the movies, they were always serving, they were always poor. They were always versions of myself that maybe I feared. I was like, I don't. No, no, no, no, no. I don't want to grow up and be that.

[Emmanuel Berry]

That's not. Well, that's not the light. You want to be out on the town with Marlon Brando. You don't want to be Scarlett Ohares made.

[Nicole Hill]

Exactly. That's exactly it. So I was sort of like, oh, man. I see them in the background being, like, porters and maids and things. And I would sort of picture, like, them getting on a train. They're in New York City. They get on the train. They go home. And then I was like, and then what?

[Emmanuel Berry]

And then what became this question that drove Nicole? It stayed in her mind for years. What would it look like if you got on the train and followed those characters home and went with those actors into their real lives offstage and the lives of their families, their community? What was the black version of the diva on Diva Cheesecake Showdown, whose passions and jealousies were people gossiping about? Where could she find those details? That drama. A couple years ago, Nicole was searching through black newspapers from the 1930s through 60s, researching for her job at the time. And Nicole, being Nicole, ended up deep in online news archives and in back rooms of university libraries, looked at all the microfiches, tried to get her hands on any and every archival black paper, from the Chicago Defender to the Detroit Tribune to the Washington Afro American. And this is where she got the answer to her question. And then what? It was all in there. The drama, the details, the lives. Like this from a 1938 paper.

[Nicole Hill]

I always remember, the first thing I noticed is a woman in a bathing suit, and they're saying, like, pretty hot a or something like that. And then on the side, they're talking about, you know, this baseball player that they'd run out of town because he'd been talking wild, and they're talking about voting. And then I keep flipping through, and they're talking about dating, and they're talking about. People are giving one another advice.

[Emmanuel Berry]

The paper had an advice column. It was called the Court of Afro Relations.

[Nicole Hill]

And they have, like, a picture of a judge. And so you write in, and then the judge tells you, like, gives you advice for how you should handle it. And so there's a woman, and she is married, and her sister is in town, and her sister is seeing a married man. Okay, I might be conflating two stories, but there was some type of confrontation at church between the mistress and the wife. And it involved an umbrella. Oh my goodness. An umbrella at church, at church, like in like a love triangle. And there was another one where it was this guy wanted to marry this girl, but she like loved to spend money and she like, likes the fancier things in life. And he's like, oh my gosh, like what should I do? And they were just like, she needs to get it together. Why is she spending all that money? I'm like, oh my gosh. This is what they were doing when they went home.

[Emmanuel Berry]

Almost every country everywhere has argued about its history at some point. We are certainly in one of those moments right now. A couple of months after Trump entered office, he issued an executive order called Restoring Truth and Sanity to American History. The order basically says, stop disparaging America. Focus on its achievements, its greatness. Or as I read it, just get rid of all the mess. So like George Washington, he's great, but maybe don't mention the black people he enslaved. Personally, I want to know about that kind of mess, not just the fact that Washington enslaved black people. I want to know who those people were and the details of their lives. I want to know about all of our ancestors mess. So that's what we're going to do today. And there's no one I'd rather do this with than Nicole Hill. Detail hunter, amateur historian, renowned gossip. She is going to take us inside a very big American life. A man who became one of the most famous people in the world and then all of a sudden was not. This story is hilarious and moving and it is very messy. Stay with us.

[Podcast Announcer]

Support for this American Life comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast Choiceology, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics of behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes and more about why people do the things they do. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] podcast or wherever you listen.

[Emmanuel Berry]

Each story you hear on Planet Money starts with a what happens if we refund tariffs? Why are groceries so expensive? At npr, we stand for your right to be curious because the forces shaping our world can be hard to see. Follow NPR's Planet Money wherever you get your podcasts and start seeing how the economy really works. It's this American life. Act one, the Was it couple so Nicole Hill has a podcast that I love called Our Ancestors Were Messy. Every show is a true life saga that she tells someone. And there's, of course, drama and glamour and heartbreak and poor judgment. All the best ingredients. Some of these stories are about capital F, famous people. Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston, and Paul Robeson. Paul Robeson exists in this weird twilight, right? Like, I think he's still famous enough that a lot of people know his name, but probably in a way that's like, oh, yeah, he sang that song, right? Old Man River. And it is shocking, as you'll see, that this is all that's left because Paul Robeson was so famous. Like, I can't even think of a modern celebrity to match how big he was. He was an athlete, an actor, a singer. It's like he would have sung the national anthem at the beginning of the super bowl, played in the football game, and then performed the halftime show. He was also a lawyer and spoke a bunch of languages, including Russian, Greek, Swahili, and French. His wife, Eslonda Robeson. Essie for short, was also famous and also an everything at once type person. Scientist, writer, anthropologist. So what the hell happened to these two superstars that now America barely knows who they are? Well, you will find out not just what happened, but also how and why. And you'll see what a marriage between two superstars looks like inside and out. Basically, we're going to Kiki and catch up on all the drama of the Robesons. Here's Nicole and her guest author Jason Reynolds with her show Our Ancestors Were Messy

[Narrator/Storyteller]

the Secret Adventures of Black People presents Our Ancestors Were Messy. Today witness a roaring twenties meet cute.

[Jason Reynolds]

You didn't tell her she had a boyfriend?

[Nicole Hill]

Boyfriend? A doctor.

[Jason Reynolds]

He was dirty Mackin.

[Narrator/Storyteller]

This episode stars novelist, poet, and bonafide genius, as in MacArthur genius. Jason Reynolds and your host, Nicole Hill live in front of a studio audience in a living room in Washington D.C. this is our Ancestors Were Messy.

[Jason Reynolds]

I feel like this is a setup,

[Narrator/Storyteller]

a show about our ancestors and all their drama.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the salon recording of Our Ancestors from Messy. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, my God, I'm so excited. I just had like 10 thoughts run through my head. Okay, so this is Jason Reynolds. This is my guest for today. You have a beautiful and very impressive resume. I'm not gonna thank you. I won't do that to you. So I'm going to tell Jason a story I want you to imagine. We're going to just do this little exercise here. If somebody were to be given a black history report like the average American on the street, any age. You give them a black history report, you say, I want you to do it on Paul Robeson. What do you think that they would say?

[Jason Reynolds]

Who's Paul Robeson?

[Nicole Hill]

Mm.

[Jason Reynolds]

Yeah. I think that the average American has no idea that Paul Robeson ever lived. If they've heard of him, I think they'd probably say he was an actor, but they would know that he had something to do with a freedom fight of sorts, I think.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah, I think people know he's an important figure, but they probably don't know why. So, Jason, I'm gonna tell you Paul's story in four parts. This is how he came to know, to love, to fear and to forget the revolutionary Robesons. So first, how he came to know the Robesons. The year is 1920. We're in Harlem. It's summertime and 24 year old Islanda Cardoza Goode, or Essie as everyone calls her, she lives with her best friend Minnie Sumner in a tiny studio near all the action. They're like in it in Harlem. By day, Essie is a level headed chemistry major at Columbia University. She's studying to be a doctor at the Teachers College. She's also dating a doctor at Harlem Hospital. She's pledged Delta and is a descendant of one of the elite Black families in D.C. known as the First Families. By night, she and her roomie Minnie are throwing ragers. They're known around Harlem for how wild their parties get and for Essie's bathtub gin that would reportedly mess you up. So she is vibrant, she's opinionated, she's hot.

[Emmanuel Berry]

Who could play her?

[Nicole Hill]

This is a picture of her. Who do you think could play her?

[Jason Reynolds]

Essie?

[Nicole Hill]

Mm.

[Jason Reynolds]

A young Halle Berry. Oh yeah, we always going like Halle Berry, man. You know what I mean?

[Nicole Hill]

It's a real, it's a romantic town. Essie enrolls in a summer chorus at Columbia. She shows up to class and spots a 22 year old nicknamed Harlem's Darling. This is Mr. Paul Robeson. He's 6 3, he's chocolate, he's got a smile, he's got a voice. He's studying at Columbia Law and playing in the NFL, which doing both at the same time is obviously wild. He's pledged alpha. Who could play him?

[Jason Reynolds]

Ooh, that's a tough one. What about the young brother who played in Sinners who played the guitar?

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah, Miles something.

[Jason Reynolds]

Miles something.

[Singer/Chorus]

Yeah.

[Jason Reynolds]

Maybe that young brother could pull it

[Laurence Fishburne]

off, man, the pressure. I felt the pressure. I felt the pressure.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, look at that. We're gonna give him the role of a lifetime. Well, that was the role of a lifetime. The second role. Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna picture Miles. So Essie's seeing a doctor, and Paul is seeing, like, all of the women of Harlem. So they're just friends. Friends who go out to dinners and to the all Negro tennis matches and to plays, some starring Paul, because he's an actor, he's pretty good at it. They're just two friends taking in post World War I Harlem. Somewhere along the way, if you can believe it, Essie and Paul become more than friends. I know nobody saw that coming. I know how shocking it is. She dumps her boyfriend, and he dumps all the women of Harlem.

[Jason Reynolds]

He was dirty. MacKinnon, leave that man.

[Nicole Hill]

They dump all their people. And our ancestors start dating. People are like, okay, but do not get married, because this is the thing. His boys think that she is too ambitious. Her girls say that he's a player. Plus, Essie and Paul, by their own admission, argue a lot. They're opposites in temperament and style. They also want an unconventional arrangement where instead of man and wife, they are going to be equals. So one rainy day in August 1921, a year after they started hanging out, Paul and Essie elope. They move into a tiny apartment in Harlem. Their friends and family are like, God bless. So Paul is studying to be a lawyer, which is a huge deal for many reasons, not least of which because he and Essie are the first generation to come up in an America without slavery. His dad was actually born enslaved and then escaped on the Underground Railroad as a teenager. All around them, Americans are trying to figure out a way to beat Jim Crow, and Paul hopes to do his part as a lawyer. So while Paul is studying, Essie supports the couple as the first black woman to lead a lab at Columbia Presbyterian. In hospital, Paul lands a job at a law firm where he's subjected to all kinds of racism, all kinds of indignities. They hate that. So Essie's like, paul, you know what you should do? You should quit being a lawyer, and you should become a full time actor. Paul is like, what are you even talking about? But she's like, no, no, no. I think you're a generational talent. I see something here. And so she stays on him for years until he does it. She becomes his manager, publicist, acting coach on top of her day job.

[Jason Reynolds]

Can we. Can we pause? Can we just pause for a second? We should pause for a second to talk about Essie.

[Nicole Hill]

What are you feeling? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Tell us where you're at.

[Jason Reynolds]

So Essie said, listen, I know you a lawyer, which still in America is one of the most prestigious jobs one might have, but I think you should quit to become an actor full time. Cause she believed. I just want. She deserves a round of applause. I appreciate.

[Nicole Hill]

That's amazing.

[Jason Reynolds]

Cause, I mean. I mean, that's a different. You think about the time. What a. That's a pretty bold risk.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes.

[Jason Reynolds]

But what an incredible example of love and support. I mean, like, I also have a serious, serious commitment to black women for this reason, I think. Cause I also think that, like, you know, we live in this time now. It's funny, we're talking about our ancestors, but we live in a time where, like, the Internet has convinced us that we all hate each other, that we all are terrible to one another. Black women are terrible. Black men are terrible. We're all terrible. And I just. We've always been awesome. Things have always been tricky.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes.

[Jason Reynolds]

But we've always been supportive and loving. And I just want to say to Essie, like, that's. It does my heart good to know that somebody would say, you know what? They're killing you at work. And I know where your heart is and I know what you're capable of. Yes. And so I'm gonna go ahead pour this into you.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes.

[Jason Reynolds]

Now, I'm hoping as the story unfolds, you know what I'm saying? Cause I know how it go. So I'm hoping that my man hold us. Come on, Paul. You know what I mean.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay. How we came to love the Robesons. For the next four years, our 20 something year old ancestors grind. Paul's profile and his star rise and rise until everyone is talking about Paul Robeson. In 1925, he lands his first film role in a movie called Body and Soul, directed by the hardest working man in cinema, Oscar Michaud. And between Paul's acting skills and Essie's PR brilliance, they score invites to house parties in Harlem where they could have run into the likes of Louis Armstrong or Josephine Baker. And they're like, let's go. So in the movie version, it's wintertime. They get to a house, they take off their jackets, they put it in the back room. It's packed. It's a Harlem brownstone, so it's loud. It smells like booze. All around them, people are talking about art and jazz and dance. Our ancestors stop in on a conversation about a thing that we all think of. When I say the Harlem Renaissance, you know it. You love it. Let's say it together. 1, 2, 3. The Russian Revolution and the rise of communism.

[Jason Reynolds]

I was going to say jazz. I was going with jazz. But you know,

[Nicole Hill]

so close.

[Narrator/Storyteller]

Four centuries. Russia's labor system of choice was serfdom. Everyone always points out that it's not slavery. Peasants were just legally bound to the land they were born onto and they had to work that land and couldn't leave or change jobs or travel or marry without the landlord's permission. But the landlord didn't own the people, just the land. Russian czars kept this up until around the time of America's Civil war. Then they freed the serfs who were not slaves, but left them with no resources and forced them to live under Jim Crow esque restrictions. Black people around the world began to identify with Russian serfs. In 1917, Communist Party leader Vladimir Lenin, with the help of the peasants, labor unions and soldiers, overthrows Russia's czar and forms the newest, largest country in the world, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The USSR bills itself as a workers utopia with a without capitalism, colonialism or racial hierarchies. Black people across the diaspora, including Paul Robeson, are so into this.

[Nicole Hill]

Now, I know when we think of Harlem Renaissance era black folks, we don't really think, oh yeah, super into Russia. But the Soviet Union is promising to be a place that's going to be free of racism and a haven for workers. So while Paul and Essie are taking in these ideas about Russia, his success as an actor continues to grow. The couple moves to London and Essie quits her job to manage him full time. So goodbye being a doctor. Paul lands his career defining role in the musical Showboat, where he sings what will become his signature song, Old Man River. I think we all know it. Should we all sing it together right now?

[Singer/Chorus]

Old Man River.

[Jason Reynolds]

That's the only part I remember. That's how it starts. That's the melody, you know what I mean?

[Singer/Chorus]

At Old Man River At Old Man river he must know something but don't say nothing he just keeps rolling. He keeps on rolling low.

[Nicole Hill]

People cannot believe his voice. America's number one black newspaper, the Chicago Defender, celebrates him as a generational talent. Essie's like, I already knew that. Essie and Paul spend the rest of their twenties traveling Europe for his plays and experiencing being black outside of America. They say it's divine. Essie is trying absinthe in Paris. Paul is studying every language. He's posing nude like they're bohemians. Then in 1927, Essie gets pregnant. She delivers an 11 pound baby boy. They name him Paul Robeson Jr. Essie calls him Paulie for short. She's in love, but in the background of all this, she's dealing with the fact that Paul is cheating on her.

[Jason Reynolds]

Come on, Paul. Oh,

[Nicole Hill]

yeah. Essie sort of knew that there were always other women, but he'd been keeping it on the low before. Then one day he comes to her and he's like, essie, I love you so much. We both said we want an unconventional relationship. Why don't we open up our marriage? The room has feelings.

[Jason Reynolds]

This man been dead forever. Like, it's not happening right now.

[Nicole Hill]

He's also seeing, among others. He's also seeing, among others, a wealthy white British party girl named Yoland Jackson. She's described as just, like, fun and carefree and a sometimes actress. Between the women and the fame and his growing activism, Paul is getting sloppy. The papers catch wind, and they're speculating that he wants to marry Yoland. Plus, Essie is finding love notes. She's pissed. So what would be your advice to our Auntie Essie as a man about how she should navigate this conversation with Paul?

[Jason Reynolds]

She doesn't want to leave her husband.

[Nicole Hill]

She does not want to leave him. She built him.

[Jason Reynolds]

She did. She doesn't want to leave her husband. I only got toxic advice in this moment. Normally not, but in this moment, I'm like, go get you some more on the side. Like, I don't know what else they Like, I don't know what else. You're gonna have to go and figure out how to find your own peace and happiness if you're gonna keep this marriage together. You're gonna have to go find some outside happiness. Unless you get a divorce. If you don't wanna get a divorce.

[Laurence Fishburne]

I don't.

[Jason Reynolds]

To me, I don't know what the other option. You don't deserve to suffer, so you're gonna have to go find you some happiness on the outside. I don't know what else I'm supposed to like. What's a better piece of advice? What would you tell her?

[Nicole Hill]

I will tell you what happened. No, no. I'll do you better. No, no, no.

[Jason Reynolds]

What would you tell her?

[Nicole Hill]

I would tell her to do what you said.

[Jason Reynolds]

Okay,

[Nicole Hill]

I'm gonna tell you what she does. She decides to write a biography about Paul. She names it Paul Robeson, comma, Negro. He's like,

[Jason Reynolds]

it's a date test. Disney.

[Nicole Hill]

It's written in the third person to make it seem more scholarly, and on the surface, it reads like a loving tribute to his life. And accomplishments. But if you read between the lines, she's calling him lazy. She says that she has to constantly chase after him to get him to rehearse and be a professional. She says that he is barely interested in Paulie. She calls him a massive flirt who is not cheating on her, but if he did cheat on her, he would never leave her. And Paul is like, I want a divorce right now. After that there are messy headlines. They kind of spend some time apart. There's this like Eat, Pray, Love, Summer in Paris for Essie. And then in the movie version of this, so it's all in my head. One day Paul shows back up on the stupid their flat. He says, essie, I've made a terrible mistake. Paul and the sometimes actress Yoland broke up. Essie says that Yoland chickened out. So he comes back home and he and Essie essentially start dating again in 1933. The two make each other some promises. They will never get divorced or discuss divorce again. They will be together for the rest of their lives. There will never be headlines or gossip about them again. No more Yelans. They will have an open marriage.

[Emmanuel Berry]

Coming up, Paul and Essie fall in love again, but this time it's with the Soviet Union. That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

[Podcast Announcer]

Support for this American Life comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast Choiceology. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes and more about why people do the things they do. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] podcast or wherever you listen. Support for this American life comes from BetterHelp. Financial stress affects more than just your bank account. It can impact your sleep, your relationships and your overall mental health. If money worries are weighing on you, you're not alone and it doesn't mean you failed. Therapy isn't about financial advice. It's about working through the anxiety, shame or overwhelming thoughts that that money stress can bring when life feels overwhelming. Therapy can help get 10% [e-mail] tal support for this American Life and the following message come from EasyCater, the workplace food platform. EasyCater helps organizations order food from favorite restaurants, meet dietary needs and stay on budget with employee meal programs, flexible payment options and 247 customer support all on one platform. Learn [e-mail]

[Emmanuel Berry]

it's this American Life. I'm Emmanuel Berry, sitting in for Hourglass. Today's show. Bless this mess. Today in our program, we are hearing the story of Paul and Essie Robeson. When we left the couple, the newspapers couldn't stop talking about their unconventional relationship. In part two of our story, all the headlines become about their politics. Here's Nicole and Jason.

[Nicole Hill]

So while Paul and Essie were dealing with all their drama, the world around them was changing.

[Narrator/Storyteller]

Over. In Italy, Benito Mussolini is running the world's first fascist dictatorship. Mussolini invades Ethiopia, forcing the country's emperor into exile. Ethiopia, the only nation in Africa that hadn't been colonized, is of enormous symbolic importance to the black diaspora. In response, black men across America train in hopes of joining the Ethiopian resistance. W.E.B. du Bois and Paul Robeson hold a rally at Madison Square Garden, and 25,000 New Yorkers march through Harlem to show their support for the African nation. Mussolini's fascist movement spreads. So does Hitler's. America chooses isolationism. The Robisons do not.

[Nicole Hill]

Here is how we came to fear the Robesons. All right, so now we're in the mid-1930s. Essie and Paul have remixed their vowels. They seem to be doing well. They are splitting their time between London and New York. Now, Paul, at this point, is so wildly famous. I saw this quote that said that he was as well known during his lifetime as. As Abraham Lincoln. Essie, meanwhile, is still managing Paul, which is just, like, amazing. She's killing it. But she's decided that she's going to go back to school for anthropology. She wants her own outlet. And then Paul gets this invite to go to Moscow, and he and Essie are like, you know what? Let's do it. We've been curious about Russia since way back in the day. Let's go. So the Robesons arrive in Moscow around Christmas time. They receive the red carpet treatment. It's all the best, this. It's state of the art that Paul performs Negro spirituals for huge crowds. And you have to picture this. He is the son of a slave singing the plantation songs of his parents to the children of serfs whose parents had their own versions of plantation songs and similar struggles. So they're listening and they're vibing. And then he sings the songs again, but in Russian, because he's fluent now. They adore him. The Robesons are part of a whole wave of black intellectuals that are visiting the USSR at this time. People. People like Langston Hughes, W.E.B. du Bois, Opera singer Marian Anderson, and all of them are saying the same thing. They're like when we are in the ussr, we are being treated like equals, which like, I can't really even imagine what it would have felt like to finally be treated like a human being.

[Jason Reynolds]

First of all, it's hard to travel now. Imagine how difficult it was to travel then. And then also, I just think they were creative people. You better get out here and see what's happening. It's good for your imagination, it's good for your creativity. It's good to know that maybe the thumb of oppression might not be as heavy everywhere else. Right. And that that's a possibility. Right. That maybe there is freedom at some point. If I could be free here, maybe someday I could be free there.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Storyteller]

The Robisons are getting a very particular experience of the ussr. But the reality is Stalin at this point has perpetrated a genocide in Ukraine. And within two years of the Robeson's visit, Stalin will enact the Great Purge in which he imprisons or executes his so called enemies.

[Nicole Hill]

We don't really know how much Essie and Paul knew about Stalin's actions. Maybe they'd heard rumors, but maybe they viewed those rumors as US propaganda. Obviously in hindsight it seems like a clearly controversial thing to have looked past, if they knew anything at all. But what we do know is that after their visit, Paul becomes one of the world's most famous supporters of the ussr. And his son Paulie will later learn that the CIA opened a file on his dad. Essie, meanwhile, is doing some traveling of her own, inspired by her interest and curiosity about Africa. In 1936, ESI goes to places like South Africa and Uganda and it kind of radicalizes her. So she writes this article being like, attention everyone. Paul and I have traveled essentially earth at this point, and everywhere we go we see the same thing, which is workers of every race being exploited. After that, she steps away from Paul's world to be a writer and an international speaker on Pan Africanism, Communism and women's and civil rights. Pauli will later learn that the FBI opened a file on his mom. What are you thinking right now, just

[Jason Reynolds]

at the FBI and the CIA and the State Department and just thinking about all the people who's had files opened up on them for. For having an imagination, right? These people are doing nothing other than imagining a better version of the life in which they've been, the life that has been foisted upon them, you know what I mean? And trying their best to imagine a space where people who, who are experiencing similar things might be free and they're being punished or at least being sort of investigated due to said imagination. You know, it's just. It's interesting to think about.

[Nicole Hill]

So from the 1930s and into the 50s, the two devote themselves to fighting racism, colonialism, and class oppression. Paul becomes one of the leading figures in the civil and labor rights movement, and he uses his fame and fortune to put on benefit concerts that black and white people attend. Paul is organizing against lynching, job discrimination, and mob violence, and he's campaigning for progressive causes around the world.

[Singer/Chorus]

I would just like to add one other word, that this is a time of struggle.

[Nicole Hill]

Paul would speak to packed out venues, bars, churches, concert halls, even to kids at summer camp.

[Singer/Chorus]

And that we have to fight against people who are very powerful. People whom it seems, are pretty hard to bring down from those top places, but they can be brought down.

[Nicole Hill]

This activism, it doesn't really impact Paul and Essie's popularity. They continue to be stars, but they are called extremists by some. They're told to leave America all the time if they have so many problems with the country. But they're like, we're Americans. Our parents built this country. We're gonna stay, and we're gonna help America realize her promise. This is always their position. But then in 1949, public opinion starts to shift. So that year, Paul joins a peace conference in Paris, and he gives this speech. And in it, he's basically like, black and white workers built America. We want to share in its wealth. We're not interested in a war with the ussr. The press falsely reports Paul, saying black people would help the Soviet Union in a war against America as revenge for slavery and Jim Crow. This goes viral. Every paper covers it. Public sentiment turns on Paul. The Chicago Defender publishes an article with the headline, paul Robeson. Is he a man or a Soviet mouse? So Essie is like, in Mexico when all this happens. And she's like, oh, my God. She gets out her typewriter. She's like, everybody, you know us, we've been in this for 20 years at this point, 20, 30 years. We understand that tensions are high, but you know that we are doing everything that we're doing to help America realize its promise. And the public is like, oh, well, yeah, that's kind of a good point. And then Pauli marries a white girl, and the public is like, boo. You guys are communists. We hate you. Essie goes back to her typewriter, and she writes, oh, yeah, I declare war on all of our enemies. And then she just, like, writes this article going off on everybody. She's like, you booed my son. I'm coming for you. I'm coming for you. I'm coming for you.

[Jason Reynolds]

She just like, I'm still a fan. This is what I'm talking about. Yolande would never.

[Nicole Hill]

Paul's viral moment when he was misquoted has big consequences for him and his family. They're now targets of the US Government, and a coordinated effort to discredit and ultimately erase him from every corner of public life begins. Which brings me to how he came to forget the Robesons. It's 1950. The State Department demands that Paul and Essie sign loyalty oaths disavowing Communism. They refuse. Their passports are revoked. So you're Paulie. What are your conversations like with your parents at this point? They're in their 50s, and they're taking on the United States of America.

[Jason Reynolds]

I'm proud of my parents. If I'm me and then my parents, these are people who raised me, I think I would have been sad, and they would have been. It would have been anxiety inducing. But I also know that it would have been a waste of my time, a futile endeavor to try to convince them otherwise. Yeah, right. If you got if them, your parents, then you go ahead and you sign up for what it is.

[Nicole Hill]

So in 1956, the Robesons get called down to Washington to testify in front of lawmakers. They're going in hopes of getting their passports back. So now you have to just remember that this is during the era of the Red Scare. So even though the Robesons by now would have learned that the USSR under Stalin is this, like, violent, authoritarian regime, they remain unwavering in their belief in Communism. So Essie's question by Joseph McCarthy and his little protege Roy Cohn, who is the mentor to the current president, that they want to know why she's so obsessed with Africa, if she's, like, an American, and why she love it there so much. Essie's like, why is everybody on this committee white? McCarthy's like, because we are who the American people voted for. Are you a Communist? And she says, well, you know, Jim Crow is making it very hard for a lot of the American people to vote down South. Maybe if they could, we wouldn't all be here wasting our time. Paul testifies before the House UN American Activities Committee. He's asked if he's a Communist, why he loves Stalin so much, why he keeps criticizing America even though he's rich and famous. His contempt for the committee is hilarious. You should absolutely read the transcripts. He's just like, I'm so bored. Why am I here? He reminds him that he's literally a lawyer. If you'll recall, that's where all this started. Plus, he's an orator and he's a genius. And they're like, obviously we forgot that. Otherwise we wouldn't have invited all these reporters in here. He's just, like, posing for the reporters. He does not care. They ask him over and over again if he's a Communist. And he says the.

[Jason Reynolds]

I'm not being tried for whether I am a communist. I'm being tried for fighting for the rights of my people to be full citizens in this country. And they are not. They are not in Mississippi and they are not in Alabama. That is why I am here today. You want to shut up. Every Negro who has the courage to stand up and fight for the rights of his people, for the rights of

[Nicole Hill]

workers, if you can believe it, after these testimonies, they do not get their passports back.

[Jason Reynolds]

I can't believe.

[Nicole Hill]

I know, I know, I know. After the hearings, the Robesons are declared anti American Communists. Paul is labeled the most dangerous man in America by the State Department. And other institutions are like, all right, let's go. And they try to make it so the Robesons never existed. Like, literally. Paul's university, Rutgers, erases any record of his football or sporting career. Newspapers destroy archival materials that mention Paul. The NAACP denounces them. The concert halls that Paul had once filled, they won't book him. He writes a memoir. The mainstream white press refuses to promote or even review it. His films and recordings get taken out of circulation. He's blacklisted from the radio movie screens. And he becomes one of the first artists to be blacklisted from television. He's banned longer than any other performer from this era. Black churches and unions around the world send their support, but it's not nearly enough. To make up for so much lost income, Paul and Essie have to sell their home and move in with Paul Holly. And all of this is what erasing them from the history books looks like. So Paul's actually going to live into the 1970s, but he is hidden from view. And let me just tell you that when I tell white people this next part of the story, they're usually like, what? But as a black person, I'm like, obviously, because none of this feels unbelievable to a black person, right? But let's get into it. In 1958, after eight years, the Supreme Court rules that the state can't take your passport over your politics. And the Robesons get Theirs back, they relocate to London. A couple years later, Paul is in Moscow. He's entertaining in his hotel room and some uninvited guests arrive. Then Esi, who's back in London and gets a call telling her that Paul is in the hospital. She rushes to Paul's side and is told that at some point during or after this party, Paul went into his bathroom and slit his wrists. He was discovered and brought to the hospital experiencing some kind of a mental breakdown with severe hallucinations and extreme paranoia. The doctors treat him with mild tranquilizers. This seems to help. Paulie arrives in Moscow. He checks on his dad, then he grabs a meal. He suddenly begins experiencing some kind of a mental breakdown with severe hallucinations and extreme paranoia. After a week, Paulie recovers, but Paul does not. At times he seems fine, and other times he's dangerously depressed and completely disoriented. And then Paul's London doctors suggest that Essie check him into a clinic called the Priori to receive special treatment. Essie agrees, but after a few months, she finally lets it slip that she's worried about Paul's treatment plan. So Paulie rushes to London and he's horrified. At the clinic, Paul has been subjected to near daily debilitating electroconvulsive therapy and a cocktail of powerful drugs. He's a shell of himself. Some historians say that maybe he had a mental break. Others wonder if he had bipolar disorder and it appeared in his 60s. They don't like Pauley's theory because he can't produce enough evidence for it. But I'm going to tell you it anyway. He says that he finds compelling evidence that the CIA and British intelligence may have conspired to administer LSD and ECT therapy as part of the COVID CIA mind control and chemical interrogation research program known as MKUltra.

[Jason Reynolds]

I'm obviously a little more toward the Paulie side, where it's like, I think they poisoned him and for his son to get sick, too. Yeah, come on, man. We know what it is like.

[Emmanuel Berry]

I just.

[Jason Reynolds]

I didn't know that part. And I think that part kind of has me a little emotional and a bit rattled. Just because. I mean. I mean, because there's anger there for me.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah. Cause it's a pattern, right, actually, of Paul. Coretta Scott King will later say he was buried alive even before my husband, for tapping the same wells of latent militancy. Essie passed away in 1965, and Paul died a decade later. He was 77. You know, I. When I talk about Paul and Essie, it's a little bit painful to tell a story like that as a black person to another black person. And think about the amount of research that I had to do to know it and that it isn't already known. And I have this feeling, you know, there's this belief that if you do enough. If we do enough, then maybe we can change everything. Maybe we can turn it around or, you know, be the change we want to see. And then I read everything that they did. They did every single thing it feels like a person could think to do to make not only black life, but all life better. And we forgot. And I just. It just makes me. It makes me sad to know that that's possible. It feels like it should be impossible to erase a legacy of that size, but. But it wasn't, which means it probably still isn't.

[Jason Reynolds]

But that's the thing, right? You say we forgot. We didn't forget. We never knew, right? The information, like his life had been redacted, right? And I think. And this is the thing that I think about all the time, is that if you can't beat me at any of the things, right? If I am objectively better at all of the things, my intellectual capacity, my athletic capacity, my creative capacity, my fervor and spirit, the only thing left to get me is to make it so that I never existed, right? Is to turn me into a ghost. The moment that the opportunity arose, he was turned into a ghost. And this is a tricky thing to talk about, right? Cause it's one of those. Cause it sounds so tinfoil.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jason Reynolds]

But if I'm only looking at what is happening, right? It's like James Baldwin. No. I don't know if you hate me, but I know that. I know my kids ain't got no books in their schools. Because I don't necessarily think that they're taking these things down because they don't believe them. I think they're taking these things down because they don't want everyone else to believe them. They know exactly who we are.

[Nicole Hill]

You know, when you say they know who we are, people know who we are. I think a lot about the fact that there is something in our ability to disrupt the economic systems of America, the social systems, the political systems. I mean, the whole country had one system that it was built on, which was the enslavement of black people. And then it ends, and it has to be overturned. And so they create a new system where it's like, all right, well, fine, we'll be separate. And then through our strategy, through our art, through our humanity, through everything that we are, we overturn the social, political, cultural, religious, all these systems again. And I, when I'm in archives, when I'm reading the, like, diaries of ancestors, that's the thing that sticks with me of like, oh, this is who we are. We have the power to articulate our lived experience in such a way that people all around the world rise up and say this is wrong and join movements and fights for people they've never met, in a lot of cases have never even seen. And I think like, man, there's so much power in that. And I didn't know. And that is by design.

[Emmanuel Berry]

Nicole Hill, she's a host of the award winning show Our Ancestors Were Messi. What you just heard was an adaptation of her original episode. That's right. There is even more Paul and Essie drama.

[Nicole Hill]

It's a two parter.

[Emmanuel Berry]

You can find that episode and more wherever you listen to podcasts. And there are so many wonderful stories that Nicole tells. I highly recommend checking out the episode about Nora Holt and the one about Zora Neale Hurston. Go listen. What you're hearing right now is Paul Robeson singing a song he himself wrote to the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. It was kind of lost to history until a sound designer and editor, John Delore, found it last year at a thrift store and gave it to Nicole.

[Singer/Chorus]

From the Bay of Massachusetts out into the Golden Gate Henry Wallace leads his army Gainst destruction, fear and hate We Americans will save the precious land that we create for the people marches on. Glory, glory, hallelujah.

[Emmanuel Berry]

Act two. Sincerely, Absolutely not. Okay, so you're emancipated from slavery. You resettle in Ohio. Then you get a letter from the man who used to enslave you asking you to come back and work for him again. That is exactly what happened to a man named Jordan Anderson. Anderson wrote a letter in response and it was published in a newspaper in 1865 and is read here at a live event by Laurence Fishburne.

[Laurence Fishburne]

To my old master. The letter. Dayton, Ohio, August 7, 1865. To my old master, Colonel P.H. anderson. Big Spring, Tennessee. Sir, I got your letter and was glad to find that you had not forgotten Jordan and that you wanted me to come back and live with you again, promising to do better for me than anyone else can. I have often felt uneasy about you. I thought the Yankees would have hung you before this. For harboring rebs that they found at your house. I suppose they never heard about your going to Colonel Martin's to kill the Union soldier that was left by his company in their stable. Although you shot at me twice before I left you. I did not want to hear of your being hurt. And am glad that you are still living. It would do me good to go back to dear old home again. And see Miss Mary and Miss Martha, Alan, Esther Green and Lee. Give my love to them all and tell them I hope we will meet in the better world, if not in this. I would have gone back to see you all when I was working in the Nashville hospital. But one of the neighbors told me that Henry intended to shoot me if he ever got a chance. I want to know particularly what the good chance is you propose to give me. I am doing tolerably well here. I get $25 a month with victuals and clothing, have a comfortable home for Mandy. The folks call her Mrs. Anderson. And the children Millie, Jane and Grundy go to school and are learning well. Now, if you will write and say what wages you will give me. I will better be able to decide whether it would be to my advantage to move back again. As to my freedom, which you say I can have. There is nothing to be gained on that score. As I got my free papers in 1864. From the Provost Marshal General of the Department of Nashville. Mandy says she would be afraid to go back without some proof that you were disposed to treat us kindly and justly. And we have concluded to test your sincerity by asking you to send us our wages for the time that we served you. This will make us forget and forgive old scores. And rely on your justice and friendship in the future. I served you faithfully for 32 years and Mandy 20 years. At $25 a month for me, $2 a week for Mandy. Our earnings would amount to $11,680. Add this, the interest for the time of our wages have been kept back. And deduct what you paid for our clothing. And three doctor visits for me. Pulling a tooth for Mandy. And the balance will show what we are in justice entitled to. Please send the money by Adams Express, in care of v. Winters, Esq. Dayton, Ohio. If you fail to pay us for our faithful labors in the past. We can have little faith in your promises in the future. We trust the good Maker has opened your eyes to the wrongs which you and your fathers have done to me and my fathers. In making us toil for you for generations without recompense. Here I draw my wages every Saturday night. But in Tennessee there was never any payday. For the Negroes any more than for the horses and cows. Surely there will be a day of reckoning for those who defraud the laborer of his hide. In answering this letter, please state if there would be any safety for my Millie and Jane, who are now grown up and both good looking girls. You know how it was with poor Matilda and Catherine. I would rather stay here and starve and die if it came to that, than to have my girls brought to shame and violence by the wickedness of their young masters. You will also please state if there have been any any schools open for the colored children in your neighborhood. The great desire of my life now is to give my children an education and have them form virtuous habits. Say howdy to George Carter and thank him for taking the pistol from you when you were shooting at me, your old servant, Jordan Anderson.

[Emmanuel Berry]

Lawrence Fishburne, reading Jordan Anderson's letter to my former master. What you just heard is a slightly shortened version of the original response. You can find the whole thing and countless other amazing letters on the Letters Live YouTube channel or at their website, letterslive.com Letters Live is actually coming back to New York City on the 14th. Tickets are on sale now. One last little thing to end our show. Recently I went to the Blacksonian. That is not what it is called. It is called the National Museum of African American History and Culture. But Blacksonian is more fun. Anyway. It was a winter morning, busy, full of school children and teachers, parents and chaperones. I took the escalator down to the bottom floor to the history galleries. And there, in big white letters against a black wall, it says slavery and freedom 1400-1877. And then this short caption. 500 years ago, a new form of slavery transformed Africa, Europe and the Americas. For the first time, people saw other human beings as commodities, things to be bought, sold and exploited to make enormous profits. The system changed the world. The United States was created in this context. Forged by slavery. I stopped reading there. Forged by slavery. And my first thought was, how are they allowed to say this? Like, why hasn't this been flagged? And then my next thought was, what a fucked up thought. I know the US does not exist without slavery.

[Nicole Hill]

And.

[Emmanuel Berry]

But it wasn't about what I knew to be true, but what's allowed to be true in this country right now. And it freaked me out because what the hell, Emmanuel? But there was also something comforting about recognizing what my brain was doing. The way history is being reshaped in this moment, it's about power. It's about how the United States is changing. I think I've read the phrase sliding towards authoritarianism countless times this year. But it's not a slide, is it? It's more like steps. Steps we the people are taking. Not just politicians, all of us. We're changing too. Taking steps so small you can miss them. But here in this museum, I caught my foot middle.

[Singer/Chorus]

Did my Lord deliver Daniel deliver Daniel deliver Daniel did my Lord deliver Daniel and oh, why not every man he delivered Daniel from the lions den, Jonah from the belly of the whale and the Hebrew children from the fiery furnace and why not every man did my Lord deliver?

[Emmanuel Berry]

Our program today was produced by Emmanuel Jochi. The people who put together today's show include FIA Bennen, Dana Chivas, Michael Kamate, Molly Marcelo, Tobin Lowe, Catherine Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Ruthie Petito, Nadia Raymond, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumry and Ike Srishkandaraja, Lily Sullivan, Frances Swanson, Christopher Swatala, Marisa Robertson, texter Nancy Updike and Julie Whitaker. Our managing editor is Sara Abdurahman. Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum. The original Our Ancestors Were Messy team includes executive producer Adriana Ambries, sound design by Kyle Murdoch, research producer and narrator Chioke A story producer Martina Abrahams.

[Nicole Hill]

Ilunga.

[Emmanuel Berry]

Special thanks to Nate Wong, John Delore, Shawn Usher, Angelina Moser Salazar, Abby Conklin, Tom Preston, Benjamin Dolly and everyone at Virginia Public Media. Also thanks to Connor Anderson and everyone at WDET Detroit. Thanks also to our this American Life Partners premium subscribers who support the show financially. Which means we can continue making this show life Partners. Let's and ad free receive regular bonus episodes and more. And we're relying on more people signing up. Go to this American Life.org Life Partners. That link is also in the show notes. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by prx, the public radio exchange. Thanks as always to our host, Ira Glass. I swear that man can never remember hit songs. He keeps calling me asking what's that one that made Rihanna famous?

[Nicole Hill]

It involved an umbrella.

[Emmanuel Berry]

I'm Emanuel Berry. Ira Glass will be back next week with more stories of this American Life.

[Singer/Chorus]

Daniel and why not. Every.

[Podcast Announcer]

Support for this American Life comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast Choiceology. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes and more about why people do the things they do. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] podcast or wherever you listen.

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