310 - Building a Business That Lasts with Stacey Rolfe

Summary

Episode 310: Building a Business That Lasts with Stacey Rolfe

Release Date: April 1, 2025
Host: Annemie Tonken
Guest: Stacey Rolfe

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Introduction and Background

In this engaging episode of This Can't Be That Hard, host Annemie Tonken welcomes Stacey Rolfe, a dynamic force in the photography business landscape. Annemie recounts her initial meeting with Stacey in Australia in 2022, highlighting Stacey's prowess as a community builder and connector. Stacey's dedication to helping photographers create profitable, organized, and sustainable businesses aligns perfectly with Annemie's mission, setting the stage for a rich and insightful conversation.

Transition from Law to Photography

[04:11] Stacey Rolfe:
"My name is Stacey Rolfe. I am English, as you can probably hear, but now live in Sydney with my husband and my two little kids. I was not a photographer my entire career... I actually trained to be a lawyer."

Stacey shares her remarkable journey from practicing employment law for 12 years in London and Sydney to pursuing her passion for photography. The catalyst for this transition was her desire to take affordable newborn photos for her daughter—a venture that quickly revealed the complexities of running a photography business.

Building a Flexible Business Model

[07:16] Stacey Rolfe:
"Coming from a world where things were very inflexible, one of the big drivers for me in leaving that career was the complete lack of flexibility... I really wanted to create a life that would flex around me, my kids, my priorities, and just allow me some breathing room."

Stacey emphasizes the importance of flexibility, especially for parents balancing family and business. She discusses the challenges of unlearning workaholic tendencies ingrained from her legal career and the ongoing effort to build a business that adapts to her personal life rather than the other way around.

Impact of COVID-19 and the Creation of Tog Hub

[14:20] Stacey Rolfe:
"Covid threw us the curveball and it really just like everybody really made me reassess what I wanted from my life and what was important."

During the pandemic, Stacey was on maternity leave when COVID-19 hit, providing her with the unexpected opportunity to pivot entirely to her photography business. The lockdowns led her to develop Tidy Tog, a service focused on setting up CRMs for photographers, which later evolved into Tog Hub. This initiative was born out of necessity, helping photographers manage their businesses more efficiently during uncertain times.

Importance of Systems and Client Experience in Photography Business

[10:53] Stacey Rolfe:
"I have always spent a really long time getting the back end of my business, working well, and investing in places that I think the return on investment is much higher."

Stacey delves into the critical role of robust systems in running a successful photography business. Drawing from her legal background, she prioritizes contracts, insurances, and client experience systems—elements often overlooked by photographers. She highlights the significance of automating administrative tasks to free up time for creative work, ensuring a seamless experience for both photographers and their clients.

[13:59] Stacey Rolfe:
"There is a foundational level of what you need... And then when you've got the foundation right, you just move up to the next level and that's when you refine, refine, refine."

Stacey introduces her "pyramid" model, advocating for a strong foundational setup before moving on to advanced optimizations. This approach ensures that every aspect of the business is stable, allowing for sustainable growth and continuous improvement.

Persistence, Foundations, and Continuous Optimization

[25:20] Stacey Rolfe:
"To succeed in business, you either have to be incredibly talented or incredibly stubborn... for most of us, the rest of us, it really is just about persistence."

Stacey underscores the importance of persistence over perfection. She argues that while exceptional talent can drive success for a few, the majority of photographers will thrive through relentless perseverance and dedication to foundational business practices. This mindset aligns with her philosophy of continuous optimization—constantly refining and improving every aspect of the business to achieve long-term success.

Helping Photographers Through Tog Hub

[28:27] Stacey Rolfe:
"They are all at all stages of business... They feel overwhelmed, they feel chaotic. They are usually incredibly talented."

Stacey explains how Tog Hub assists photographers at various stages by alleviating administrative burdens. Her services are tailored for those who recognize the chaos in their businesses but are unsure how to streamline their operations. By designing bespoke workflows and automating client interactions through CRMs like Studio Ninja and Pic Time, Stacey helps photographers reclaim their time and focus on what they do best—capturing stunning images.

[35:03] Stacey Rolfe:
"This is what I say to my clients. I'm like, this is the easiest thing to outsource because I just, I can do it all for you. You don't really have to do anything."

Stacey highlights the hands-on approach of Tog Hub, ensuring that clients feel supported and confident in their business systems. Her team's expertise, coupled with their understanding of the photography industry's nuances, makes the transition to automated systems seamless and stress-free.

Conclusion and Connecting with Stacey

[36:08] Stacey Rolfe:
"I am on Instagram @toghub... www.toghub.com... stacyrollphotography."

In the closing segment, Stacey provides listeners with ways to connect and engage with her services. She encourages photographers to reach out via Instagram or her website to explore how Tog Hub can transform their business operations.

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Key Takeaways

• Flexibility is Crucial: Building a business that adapts to personal life enhances sustainability and reduces burnout.
• Systems and Automation: Implementing robust systems like CRMs can significantly streamline business operations, allowing photographers to focus on their craft.
• Persistence Over Perfection: Success often comes from relentless effort and continuous improvement rather than waiting for perfect conditions.
• Foundational Strength: Establishing strong business foundations is essential before moving on to advanced optimizations.
• Support Networks: Leveraging services like Tog Hub can provide the necessary support to manage and grow a photography business effectively.

Notable Quotes

• Stacey Rolfe ([07:16]):
  "I really wanted to create a life that would flex around me, my kids, my priorities, and just allow me some breathing room."

• Stacey Rolfe ([10:53]):
  "Investing in places that I think the return on investment is much higher."

• Stacey Rolfe ([25:20]):
  "To succeed in business, you either have to be incredibly talented or incredibly stubborn. For most of us, it really is just about persistence."

• Stacey Rolfe ([35:03]):
  "This is the easiest thing to outsource because I just, I can do it all for you. You don't really have to do anything."

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Connect with Stacey Rolfe

• Instagram: @toghub
• Website: www.toghub.com
• Photography Portfolio: StaceyRolfePhotography

For more resources and actionable strategies to build a profitable and sustainable photography business, visit ThisCan'tBeThatHard.com.

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the conversation between Annemie Tonken and Stacey Rolfe, highlighting Stacey's journey, business philosophies, and the invaluable insights she offers to photographers striving for success.

Transcript

[Annemie Tonkin]

Sometimes I start a podcast interview with one sort of idea in mind about what the conversation is going to be about, and then it ends up landing in a completely different place than I anticipated in. Today's interview with Stacey Rolf is very much one of those interviews. However, I really love all the different ground that we covered in this conversation. Stacy is a friend of mine who I met in Australia in, I think it was 2022 when I was invited to speak for her community in Sydney and give a talk about portrait memberships. And I was so taken by this woman who was just a powerhouse community builder, people connector, idea spread spreader, sort of energetic person who had all the same feelings and beliefs that I did about helping photographers run profitable businesses that are organized, sustainable, all that sort of thing, but was really pretty new in the industry at that point, not just in the education part of the world, but in photography in general. You're going to hear more of her backstory from her in this conversation, so I won't spoil all the surprises there, but I just want you to go into this thinking about listening not only to what Stacy is saying, but to the what her story is telling us about what it takes to be successful and what success means when you define it based on sort of your overarching goals, strengths, things you enjoy, all of those kinds of things, as opposed to some sort of, you know, metric that is locked in with finances or locked in with somebody else's definition of success. Anyway, Stacy is such a breath of fresh air. I really enjoyed our conversation. I know you will too. And I hope that at the end of this, whether or not you have any need of her services, you start to follow her because her online presence is really just as inspirational as what she has to share today. Welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Annemie Tonkin, and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it, and I can show you how. Stacy Rolf, welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. This is way, way overdue. I am so excited to chat with you today. How are you?

[Stacey Rolfe]

I am really well. I'm so glad to finally be doing this. It's been on our list for years now.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Yeah, I mean, let's see. I've known you for a solid two years and would have been happy to have you on the show at any point in that period of time. And yeah, here we are. This is the. This is what happens when two busy women are like, we should get together. And then two years later, they finally have lunch.

[Stacey Rolfe]

That's right.

[Annemie Tonkin]

But it is great to see you. How have you been?

[Stacey Rolfe]

I have been really well, thank you. Yeah, we've just got back from a big trip. We spent winter in Europe, and so that was really nice to switch the brain off. And then I've come back to big, exciting things in my business. So, yeah, it's been. It's been kind of up and down. Big whirlwind, really.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as it always is. And I guess I should probably back up and have you introduce yourself. You are based in Australia. Traveling to Europe is a big deal. From Australia, obviously. But tell us a little bit as we kick things off about. And actually, I guess we could just sort of kick off with your story because that's where all of this starts.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Yeah.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Why don't you give us the short version of your origins in photography?

[Stacey Rolfe]

Sure. Well, my short version, I'm not very good at short versions, but I'll try my very best. So my name is Stacey Rolfe. I am English, as you can probably hear, but now live in Sydney with my husband and my two little kids. I was not a photographer my entire career, as I know a lot of photographers are not. I actually trained to be a lawyer. So I spent 12 years in London and then Sydney practicing employment law at big corporate scary firms. And when I had my daughter, I decided that hilariously, newborn photographers were far too expensive. And I'm sure I could just buy a camera and do that myself. I mean, how arrogant is that? And of course, I worked out pretty quickly that I couldn't. That it was a lot harder than it looked.

[Annemie Tonkin]

This can't be that hard.

[Stacey Rolfe]

It can't be that hard. Oh, my gosh, the naivety of you. Anyway, I obviously have no good pictures of my daughter as a newborn, but that is fine find because over the years I just developed this love for photography and built this gorgeous little side hustle. But the reason I met you onomi is because I also have a business called the Tog Hub. And in that I kind of put all of the corporate skills that I have to use and I help photographers to make their business easier. So you'll find me both at Stacey Rolf Photography, but you'll also find me over at Toghub.

[Annemie Tonkin]

I love that. And when I was first put in touch with you, it was because I was going to be traveling to Australia and I was looking for ways to extend my trip, to be quite honest. And then we were connected because you were having the first of what has now become a series of sort of get togethers in the industry. And maybe I'm getting ahead of. Maybe this is like getting ahead of where we need to be in this story. But yeah, I got to come and meet you in person, which was really fun. And seeing what you were doing in Sydney was really inspirational, really exciting. The people there were so enthusiastic about this community that you were creating and I was frankly just inspired by how you had sort of. Even as a relatively new, I mean, at that point, I guess you had been in photography for 4ish years. Yeah, but like as a relatively new photographer, just being like, yeah, this is a missing piece of the puzzle. This is, you know, I see something that I want in this industry that doesn't exist, so I'm going to create it. And I love that kind of energy. Honestly, it requires a lot of energy to do that sort of thing. So. So it was a, it was a big inspiration to me.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Oh, thank you.

[Annemie Tonkin]

But I think that that's kind of the more I get to know you, that's really a through line in your career. And I don't know much actually anything, I guess about your law career, but it seems like from the get go in photography you took a more flexible approach than I think a lot of photographers do. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

[Stacey Rolfe]

I think coming from a world where things were very inflexible, one of the big drivers for me in leaving that career was the complete lack of flexibility. It was very much that your job came first. And, you know, there was a time in my life where that was fine and the job was really interesting and I was surrounded by great people and I was being paid a really good salary and it was kind of exciting and it was cool to be up working all night and working on these big deals and, you know, it was cool. I was young and it was cool and it was London and it was the heyday.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Sure.

[Stacey Rolfe]

But I think as you get older, certainly when you have kids, the all encompassing nature of that is just frankly impossible to manage. It was completely impossible for me to manage and my priorities had shifted to such a degree that the job wasn't the most important thing in my life anymore. And I could feel that that was becoming a real problem. So when I shifted into my photography business, it was largely for that flexibility. I really wanted to create A life that would flex around me, my kids, my priorities, and just allow me some breathing room, really. Now, I cannot say that I've always done that really successfully because I think old habits die hard. And lawyers are type A. They're very driven. They're driven by deadlines. I, as I said, I was really used to working quite horrific hours, in all honesty, and I have found that habit very hard to unlearn. As soon as you come into a business where there is no boundary, you love it so much that you want to do it all the time. Certainly in the beginning, it is really, really hard to switch off. And so the workaholic side of me has not died, but she is certainly quieter than she used to be. And I'm very focused on building businesses that flex around us and not the other way around.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Yeah, I think that for one reason or another, a lot of us fall into, you know, we are lured by the sense of, or the potential for freedom and flexibility and setting our own hours and all these sorts of things. And then as soon as it's up to us to set our own hours, we're like, well, you can just work around the clock. You're, you're, you're, you're chained to your desk. And so I don't, I don't think that you're alone in that. I'm glad to hear I'm not alone in that. But I also think that your approach to, to filling your time has not just been spent doing the thing that sometimes we all tend to do, which is like banging our head against one wall.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Yes.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Like, I'm, you know, I want to get as many photography clients as possible and serve them. So I'm just going to spend. And actually, when I talk to a lot of students, and I would love to hear if this is true for you too. A lot of other photographers will say, like, I'm so busy, I'm so busy, I'm so busy. But if we start to do some kind of time audit, the things that they are actually filling their time with are not moving any needles. Like, it's, you know, there's a lot of perusing other people's websites or other people's social media or looking into, you know, going down these deep rabbit holes about things that they could be doing or should be doing, but they're not actually taking action on any or many of them. Versus I feel like from what I know of your story, you kind of set to work and very quickly filled your time getting things done.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Yeah, I resonate with so much of that, I think, when you're new, the lure of Instagram in particular, I mean, what a rabbit hole that is. And we spend so many hours, too many hours thinking of what to write and formulating things and whatever. And Instagram is a really important tool, don't get me wrong. But it just doesn't give you the return that you expect it to for the number of hours. If you really think about it as a return on investment, it just. It just doesn't do it. I mean, unless you are really taking an aggressive approach to that marketing strategy, which takes an enormous amount of time, you know, if you really do want to go viral or whatever. But for most of us, it just doesn't have the payoff. I think of it much more like a shop window. It's just where I show off my best stuff, where people can kind of check if they like the vibe and decide if they want to come inside. That's how I view my Instagram. But, yeah, I. I have always spent a really long time getting the back end of my business, working well, and investing in places that I think the return on investment is much higher. So, you know, obviously I'm a lawyer, was a lawyer. So the first thing I really did was get things like contracts and insurances in place. I was really a stickler for things like that. I was essentially trained to look out for the disasters coming down the road. To me, I remember my husband telling me he thought I was a pessimist. And I was furious about that. At the time, I was like, I'm just a realist. But over the years, I've come to realize I really was such a pessimist. And it was because we were trained to be looking for all the problems all the time. So I spent a lot of time getting all that ready. And then I put a lot of time into client experience systems, which I know is your jam. And I put a lot of time into that because returning clients are your easiest source of anything in every business. And I think this is one of the things I've realized over the years, is that when I came into this business and started working for myself, I moved from this very, very ultra corporate world to a very incredibly creative world. And on the surface, people are like, oh, my God, what a huge career change. Like, it's complete 180. And, you know, the thing is, the longer I'm in it, the more I realize how much I was taught in that service industry, which people who are just photographers, who've just been photographers for a Long time or they've had a regular office job or whatever, they're just not taught that. And the amount that it was drilled into us about client experience, about maintaining relationships, about bringing clients back, about retainers and flexible pricing and innovative quoting and pricing theory, these things were just part of my day to day. And I think when that's your world, you assume that everybody knows that stuff. And over the years working with more and more photographers, I've really realized that people don't. So yeah, I've taken a very flexible approach to what I do in my business and I've taken a very holistic approach to what, where I should be spending my time in my business for sure.

[Annemie Tonkin]

So you were busy setting all this up. You had some early success it sounds like in your photography business things took off pretty quickly.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Yeah.

[Annemie Tonkin]

And then you and the rest of the world got thrown into like, or got thrown a massive curveball when Covid hit. Remind me exactly how far you were in at that point.

[Stacey Rolfe]

At the point of COVID I actually hadn't left my job. So the first lockdown, the first wave in 2020, I actually hadn't left my job. I had gone on maternity leave in March 2020 with my second baby.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Got to spend a lot of time alone.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Oh yes. So I'd gone on maternity leave with my second baby in March 2020. So I'd been doing photography for two years by then and I had what I would call a really solid side hustle and I actually had no plans of becoming a photographer. So I knew I hated the job and I knew I wouldn't go back to that exact job after maternity leave. But I did not expect to do what I ended up doing. I thought that I would go and be an in house counsel or an HR director or something like that. So Covid threw us the curveball and it really just like everybody really made me reassess what I wanted from my life and what was important. And it also gave me, I was lucky I think with that timing because it gave me like carte blanche. I was on maternity leave. Here in Australia you are allowed to take two years off if you want to. Yeah, not all of it paid, but up to two years off. And I had this crazy unprecedented circumstances and I just thought no one's going to ask any questions if I take longer. No one is going to ask anything if I decide not to go back to work after nine months as I originally planned to do. So it was this quite risk free break in my life. So I decided to go full time in January 2021. As you say, things picked up really fast. That post Covid world was a very easy time, actually, to build your photography business. There was a lot of work around and of course, people had really recognized the value of what we do. But then in, I think it was June or end of May here in Sydney, that's when we went down into our biggest lockdown. So we actually were locked down for four months. So that was the lockdown that changed my business completely because I'd gone really hard in the January and I'd filled my books and I had a lot of bookings and things were going really, really well and I was earning more than I was earning as a lawyer already. And then, boom, overnight it all stopped. And so the first thing I did, it was a weird lockdown. They basically said, oh, we'll just lock you down for a week. Oh, it's two weeks. And boom, suddenly it was four months.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Right.

[Stacey Rolfe]

So the first week I was just like, this is a gift. I can catch up. I'm going to go back and revisit my systems and make sure they're all ticking along nicely and they're all, you know, top notch. And then we went into a second week. So I did my. My mates, I did my friend's one, and then I did another friend's one, and then I did another friend's one, and then I was like, oh, you know what, maybe I could just do this and charge something for it to get me through Covid. So that's kind of where the Tidy Tog came from. And the Tidy Tog was the first thing. It predated Tog Hub. It predated all of this other education and community stuff that I've been doing over the last couple of years, three years now. And it was just setting up people's CRMs for them. That's what it was. And it got me all the way through Covid. I did that. I did some virtual shooting for new newborn clients. I did some doorstep shooting for family clients, and I did a lot of system setups.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Amazing. And so you are a studio ninja person. Am I correct about that? You do studio ninja setups specifically for CRMs. And that was. That was basically you saying, I know how to do this. A bunch of people have a hard time doing this. I'll just help you out. Like, that was. That was as complicated and uncomplicated as the offer started out.

[Stacey Rolfe]

That's right. And I think that. Yeah, and I think that one of the things that I recognize in myself is that I just get started, I will just do things. I'm not particularly worried about having a very big, shiny, foolproof plan. I've never been particularly concerned about that. I'm quite happy to just pick up the camera and start charging. I'm quite happy to just start setting up Studio Ninja and doing a good job and doing the best that I know how to do. But I don't worry about whether I'm the best in the world at it or whether I've got all of the qualifications you need for it. I'm quite happy to just get scrappy and get started. And I think that that has really stood me in good stead in both of my businesses.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Yeah. And I just want to like sidebar talk about that for a second because that is something that time and again in the role of educator I feel called to remind people of. In this industry there are no catastrophic mistakes in terms of the way you run your business. I always say, you know, get yourself legally in order. That could turn out to be a catastrophe. Pay your taxes. These are things that are sort of baseline. But beyond that, when it comes to trying something out in your marketing or signing up for a course or putting together an offer that you're not really sure how it's going to land or trying a new niche, I think that I come across a lot and I think it's probably baked into many artists personalities. There is this sort of need to make something perfect before, you know, like have it delivered whole as opposed to kind of saying, well, I don't know, let's just take the first few steps and see where they lead. But I agree with you. I think that, that if I had to point to one personality trait or thing that I'm willing to do that has helped me succeed, it's just sort of this willingness to try with the understanding that like it may not go well at all. Yeah, it certainly won't go perfectly. But it'll probably take me somewhere different than where I am right now and hopefully somewhere in the right direction. Hang on guys, I have a quick message for you. Hey friends, Just a quick interruption. I wanted to take a minute to thank you as always for listening. If you're a new listener, I have a special welcome basket that I've put together just for you that includes three of my most popular actionable resources to help you build a more profitable, sustainable photography business. You can grab [e-mail] welcome. But if you've been a long time listener, if you've been here for a while. I would really appreciate it if you could take a second to leave a review on Spotify or Apple or wherever it is that you're tuning in. Your support helps the show grow, reach more photographers like you, and elevates the industry as a whole, no matter who you are or how long you've been listening. Thank you so much. And now back to the show.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Exactly that. And I think the more you stay still, like everyone else is moving forward, everyone else is going to overtake you. You have to just try. You can do that at a lower price point. You can work for free. You can try things out. You can let people know that this is kind of an experiment. Like when I started, I was charging a couple of hundred dollars for this service, and now we charge over a thousand dollars for the same service because everything is slicker. We have a lot more resources. It's. It's a much better service now, of course, but I don't feel bad for the people that did it in the beginning. They had a really great service at a really great price. And I spent a lot of time and effort and energy on it. And I think that the, the perfectionism and what I, what I see in a lot of my clients is a fear of judgment as well. So it's both self judgment, which my goodness, I'm very guilty of doing, but self judgment if you fail is a huge one. But also the fear of what other people will think. The fear people pleaser in you. Like all of these traits that we hear about, they're not bad. They serve a purpose. But we have to be aware of what they're doing to our businesses. And 99% of the time they're holding us back. And if we can see that happening, we just need to make. You have to make a decision. Am I going to move past it anyway, feel the fear and do it anyway, or am I going to let this stop me? And those are the only two choices that I'm aware of. I don't see really a middle ground. And for me, I mentor a lot of photographers. I have a lot of photographers going through my courses. And the one factor that differentiates the people that succeed and the people that stay still is the action that they take time and time again. If you do the thing, whether you do it perfectly or not, if you do the thing, you move forward and you see results. And I just see our businesses in every way, shape and form. Our businesses are just like this pyramid. There is a foundational level. There are things that you have to have, you need a camera, you need a computer. You're going to need some kind of system. However experience that is or however, however developed that system is, you're going to need certain things, you need lightroom, you need pick time or whatever. But ultimately there is a foundational level of what you need. And then when you've got the foundation right, you just move up to the next level and that's when you refine, refine, refine. And when you've refined that, you just go right back to the beginning again. What I'm learning, the longer I'm in business, both of my businesses, is that it's, it's a never optimization loop.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Yeah.

[Stacey Rolfe]

And I think those are the people that really succeed are the people that are willing to do the foundations right. And then go back and optimize. And then go back and optimize rather than trying to get to the top of the pyramid from the get go.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Right. One of the. I love that you say the longer I've been doing this, the more I notice that it's this never ending loop. I love coming across old notebooks that I have, you know, laying around in drawers or whatever and, and I'll crack one open and it'll be like I was at a conference or I was signed up for a class or I was just journaling about, you know, this is what I want to do in the next year. Here are my plans. And the themes are so repetitive. They're so like similar to what is happening now, but it's just different versions of the same, it's different iterations on the same. But I think that what I see in those is like the commitment to action constantly. Just like, well, this year I'm going to try this or this month or this week. This is how I'm going to chip away at this particular problem. The problems don't really change and neither do you know, it's like we always have to market our businesses and we always have to create good client experiences and all those kinds of things. And there's the repetition is not a bad thing. I mean now we have to be somewhat repetitive in what we're doing, but at the end of the day we also have to keep showing up. Like there's. I think for a long time I thought, okay, once I figure this out, once I crack the code, then I'll just be able to set that on, you know, Evergreen repeat to like it can just do its own thing in the background and this is just not that sort of business.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Yeah. You know, I had a quote probably a year ago now and it was, to succeed in business, you either have to be incredibly talented or incredibly stubborn. And I love that quote so much because there are probably a handful, there is like the 1 percenters for whom their talent is just so ridiculous and so incredible that it really doesn't matter. They're going to succeed because they are just pure talent and people will put up with crappy experience or systems or whatever. But for most of us, the rest of us, it really is just about persistence. You have to stick with it. You have to, as you say, do the same things on repeat over and over and over. And that is just a business. That is just a business where you have to churn out your marketing and get a steady stream of clients. And yeah, we refine and we optimize, we get better, we get more efficient, but we still have to do the same fundamental stuff. It's why I'm so incredibly like, I never stop talking about the foundational level because if you skip that, if you just try and optimize one part of the pyramid, it's all going to fall over. You have to have all of the bits in place, all four parts of your pyramid, and you just have to have those foundations strong. And if you have those, you can iterate and optimize as fast as you want over and over and over. You build this as high as you like, but without those, without understanding the basics, you really can't go anywhere. You are completely stuck.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Yeah. In a sort of prison of your own making.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Yes.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Shortcuts rarely work. I think is the, is the other way to say that. And that's true. It is funny how, like, you can't get to the, to the finish line without going through the miles in the beginning.

[Stacey Rolfe]

That's exactly right.

[Annemie Tonkin]

So, you know, obviously in all this repetition, as creatives, we have to do something to keep ourselves entertained. We have to. You know, that's why I feel like doing the same thing on repeat, but changing it all the time is the way that I have been able to maintain my focus. The other way that I think that you and I should spend at least a few minutes talking about is by getting rid of the things that are necessary, but that I don't like doing it, that I. Each individual one of us has certain strengths and certain weaknesses. But I think no one gets into photography to, for instance, write the same emails or answer the same questions or, you know, like send out contracts by hand every single time, which is where those kind of foundational Systems really do come into play. Tell me a little bit about. I mean, now that you are well into doing system setups, you've done hundreds of CRM setups and now you're doing PIC time as well. Talk to me about how the photographers who come to you, are they new, are they experienced? Where are they on that kind of arc of their business? And what are the, like, what are the major pain points that they're coming to you with?

[Stacey Rolfe]

They are all at all stages of business. And actually that has been one of my key marketing challenges. Funny enough, because I actually don't think that our service, it's not about how many years you've been doing it. It's actually more about the kind of person that you are. So the key themes that I see of people coming through the tidy talk, they feel overwhelmed, they feel chaotic. They can't stay on top of things. They are usually incredibly talented. A lot of them have some kind of neurodivergence that makes it really hard to stay on task. They often have really established businesses and really established ideas of how they want to service their clients, how they want to say certain things, the copy they want to give. But they're doing things in the most inefficient way that they possibly could. Like, it just feels to me that there's, there's repetition. The clients are getting the same stuff over and over and they're missing certain things all the time. They are having to go back and forth about upgrades and invoicing and which images you're going to choose and what prints you want. And for me, I'm like, this is literally all at your fingertips. Like, you can outsource this for cents on the dollar. Like, right, you can get a program that will literally do this for you. I think a lot of them are like, right, I need a va. And you think, well, sure, like, maybe you need a va. But first you need a system that's going to take on 90% of that work. Because really, if you program it right, you don't have to do anything at all. You can just let this run. You deal with your leads and you sell to your leads. You make sure that you convert those and then between the lead and the session, there's nothing to do. All of that can be automated. Then obviously the hard work starts. We start editing and culling and we're doing all of those things. But then again, you can systemize all of that through pick time. You can have the whole system sell for you. The client can upgrade on their own. They can download the right images on their own, there's nothing left. You don't have to do these tasks. And so to go back to your question, the people that come to me typically either they are very self aware beginners. So people who already know they're going to struggle with this. So there is like this small subset of people who recognize how important the client experiences. They recognize how admin overwhelms them and they're just like, you know what, I have to get this right because this is going to be a disaster if I try and do this on my own. That I would say is a small number of people that have enough self awareness and enough understanding of the importance of that to come to me kind of right at the start of that business. Much more commonly, I'm talking to people who are totally in the weeds, completely overwhelmed. Their business has taken off, they are booked for months and months and they just do not know how to claw back time, they do not know how to stay on top of things. And they come to me in this quite chaotic panic. And so what we do is we kind of teach them how to develop a workflow. I sit with them one to one and we literally nut out exactly what they want. We will design all of their copy and every single step of their workflow together and we'll create them like a bespoke plan and we send that to them so they can just read through it, give us the green light, and then we go off and build it. And then we also have like a small, very short, very quick academy for them to watch that teaches them how to use it. So what it does for those people is it's just, it feels like it's this never ending pressure of I should sort that, I should do that. I'm writing this email again, I should probably do something about this. And eventually they just get to a breaking point where they think I'm going to have to get someone else to do this for me. And my goal is to take all of that off them, like as much as I possibly can take away from them. So those are the people. Typically it's anyone who really recognizes that this is crushing them or is going to crush them. Anyone who recognizes that admin is not their strong suit and they need to get rid of it somehow. And usually people who are just so busy doing the thing they're brilliant at that they feel incredibly stressed and overwhelmed about the rest of it.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Yeah. Oh man. And I love that. So I have this sort of inside joke that dates back to When I was in high school where I was talking to a friend about the, like, the feeling of having things all tangled up like a ball of yarn that, you know, feels super chaotic and confused and difficult to manage. And then the opposite of that, what we said when we were in school together was, I feel like my strings are flat. And I love what you're describing because for me, that is that perfect, like, strings flat moment. It happened for me when I first got my CRM set up. It happened for me again when I built the simple sales system in my business. And all of a sudden it was like, I'm doing a fraction of the work and getting the same results. It was like, how did, how did that happen? And, and so I love. I'm, I'm almost jealous I don't do, like, done for you services, but I am almost jealous of what it must feel like to be the one handing that over to someone because it is such a gift.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Yeah, it does feel good. Like at the end of that call that I have with them and I'm like, right, this is what we're going to do. I'm going to send you this plan. You just need to read through it and tell me you're happy with it. And then we will build the whole thing. Every single time, it's like this. It's this deep exhale. It's like, oh, I'm so glad that's done. I'm so glad that this is going to be all done for me now, you know? And it does. It feels really nice to be able to take something really so simple off the plate of somebody so overwhelmed. And, you know, the other thing is our team, we're all photographers, so we totally speak the language of the people that we're working for. And I am a working photographer. I still have, like, I don't work full time in IT anymore, I suppose. What does full time even mean? But, you know, I split my time between my photography business and tog hub, so I'm still doing 10 or 12 sessions every month. So I understand what's going on in the industry. I understand what you need, I understand what the trends are. Like, I'm still very much there and working in IT and so on my team. So, yeah, it's just, it's a really nice. It's the easiest thing. This is what I say to my clients. I'm like, this is the easiest thing to outsource because I just, I can do it all for you. Like, you don't really have to do anything. You just have to sit on a call with me for an hour and a half. That's it.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Amazing. Oh, well, I don't doubt that there are going to be some people listening who are like, wait, where do I get in touch with this person? And we will get to that. But as I'm sitting here thinking about the conversation that we were sort of planning on having and like, where this has evolved, which always happens because I sit down with like a few notes and then I'm like, just open, open the book. Tell me all the things. I love everything that you've said today and I love sort of the, the frame story here about that. It really is about flexibility. It's about, you know, approaching your business with a curious mind, keeping your eyes open to what's available, what's needed, you know, where your strengths lie, what kind of lights you up and gets you going. And I love your example in the industry of someone who has taken action again and again and iterated over and over in a relatively short period of time and had such incredible success doing it. And so to that end, tell everybody how they can connect with you online and potentially sign up for your services.

[Stacey Rolfe]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I am on Instagram @tog hub. T O G H U B and I often get messages asking what a tog is. It's just short for photographer. So Tog Hub, that's me. You will find me there. And www.toghub.com and you can also come and follow me at stacyrollphotography S T A C E Y R O L F E so all the e's and I'm over there doing, living my best life over here in Sydney.

[Annemie Tonkin]

Love it. Well, one of these days I will be getting back over there to visit you again, but in the meantime, I will see you online again soon. But thank you so much for joining us here today and thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. That's it for this week's episode of this Can't Be that Hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. If you like the show, be sure to check out thiscan'tbethard.com to explore all the resources we have for photographers. And of course, it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review of the show on itunes or Spotify. As always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.