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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everybody, it's Dana. I am back for the fifth and final week of our marketing month, and I have so enjoyed taking over the podcast for this month of marketing. I really hope you guys have enjoyed it as well. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to give you a little backstory. So Anime and I originally recorded this episode for the Consistency Club, but it came out so good, and the lesson is so gravity defying that I decided we had to share it on the main podcast as well. And honestly, the timing is perfect because if you've been following along, all month, we've been talking about how to build a strong marketing ecosystem, how to show up consistently, how to build trust. But there's one part of marketing that we haven't yet talked about, and that is how it interacts with sales. So today's episode is all about that intersection of sales and marketing, how they support each other, and honestly, how you really can't have one without the other. Now, in true data fashion, I've got a metaphor for you, and I think you're going to be obsessified with it. So when you finish listening, make sure that you log into the darkroom to tell me how much you loved it and also to get your daily action items for the week. And if you've been wanting to try the Consistency Club but haven't yet signed up, make sure you check the links at the bottom of the episode for a special $1 trial for your first month. Okay, without further ado, let's cue the music and start the show.
- [01:36]
B
Welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Anna Mi Tonkin, and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it, and I can show you how.
- [02:08]
C
Dana. Pardon me.
- [02:10]
A
I am so excited.
- [02:11]
C
I love that you brought your wand, you guys, this episode. Dana, first of all, this is 100% Dana. She came up with this whole concept and has been just like killed it with this one. I am so excited to. To jump in. But this, I'm going to let you introduce it because honestly, like, this is your. This is your jam and your brainchild.
- [02:32]
A
Okay? So if you're listening, first of all, and you're not seeing the video, I just want you to know I'm wearing pink and I have sparkly earrings on and a little wand And Automi is wearing green and not wearing a witch hat. But we wish she was.
- [02:46]
C
I wish I was wearing a witch hat. And I very specifically put away my pink background for today's episode because I was like, I think pink is off brand for this particular role that I'm playing today.
- [02:59]
A
And so if you haven't figured it out from the context clues, we are doing a Wicked themed episode around marketing and sales, where Glinda is your marketing side of your business and Elphaba is your selling side of your business. As I was coming up with this idea, you know, I feel like a lot of people really struggle with switching hats between doing their marketing and then hopping over to selling. And I feel like selling gets a bad rap and is looked at as wicked. And I was like, oh, this is going to be an amazing episode. And I convinced Anna me to get in semi costume and here we are.
- [03:38]
C
Yes. But before we go any further, like, quick primer, in case you haven't seen Wicked or read the book or anything, the Wicked is sort of a prequel that was written about the backstory of the two witches from the wizard of Oz. So, you know, like Dana said, Glinda is the good witch. Right. She's polished, she's charming, she's very well liked. And Elphaba is the name of the so called wicked witch because she is intense and direct and powerful and green and totally misunderstood. And the whole backstory is basically about how one of them gets celebrated and the other one gets totally villainized.
- [04:16]
A
I was gonna say. So, like, very naturally, I was like, well, I'll be Glinda. Yeah.
- [04:21]
C
This is one of those where when you're. When you're little girls and you're playing with your friend and the one friend is like, I'm the good witch. Yeah, of course Dana was the good
- [04:30]
A
witch because she is sparkly and approachable. Popular. Popular, yeah.
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C
Which obviously then leaves me to be Elphaba, which makes total sense.
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A
You're very powerful and direct and like, we're all a little intimidated by you.
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C
Oh, no, Misunderstood. I'm not. No one should be intimidated by me. For sure.
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A
The real hero of the story. So in the end, you are our hero. So I think this makes perfect sense.
- [04:59]
C
Well, I think what the whole point today is that we make a good team.
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A
So. Yes, we do.
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C
Glinda, as Dana was saying, is sort of the marketing component of your business. Right?
- [05:11]
A
Yeah.
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C
Yeah.
- [05:12]
A
Sorry. It's like. No, that's okay. It's like marketing. You know, whether or not you love marketing, marketing is, you know, sparkly. It's like, look at this pretty picture. People like it. It's like, it feels kind of, like, good. You're getting that good feedback. It's like, all about visibility. You know, you're like, putting your bl blog posts out. You're, you know, people are liking your reels and saving them or, like, sharing them around. It's all about getting seen. And, like, people are like I said, it's like, you want to be popular, right? That's what marketing is all about. And I think that feels really safe. Even if you don't, like, love doing marketing, living in that space of being like, the glinda of the story is safer, right? And that's what we learned from the story is like, you know, she. Galinda. In the beginning, Galinda is like, you know, I'm gonna live in my little bubble world over here where everything is like, perfect and easy and I don't have to do anything. That's hard. And sometimes I think that is how I see people getting stuck in only doing their marketing and not wanting to step over into a different part of their business, which is to do their selling.
- [06:27]
C
And I want to hold space for the fact that that is really compelling. I think that our society right now, and certainly social media, makes it really easy to have this kind of influencer Persona where you're just out there talking about you're giving the Instagram version of the world, right? Where it's like, look at my cute little square. And everything is good and easy and happy. And so certainly one of the main pieces of our. Most of our businesses is creating beautiful content or positive content. You know, content that is validating to people and rewarding to people. And there's nothing wrong with that. Right? I think it's important to share that piece of what you offer, which is aspirational for people. Nobody's going to get mad at you or dislike you for posting the work that you do. I think that that's good and it helps, like, build awareness and drive interest, and those things really matter. However, it is really important to remember that popularity, this is not a popularity contest. Like, running a business isn't about being popular for the sake of being popular. It's about making money and, you know, being able to provide art to people as your job. So if that's the goal, if that's why you're here, and most of the people obviously here in the consistency club are running businesses and trying to be popular or popular. And so we have to kind of take off the tiara sometimes and put on our witch hat.
- [08:04]
A
Yeah. And I think, like, this kind of fits into. We've talked about this before, this idea of, like, your client's journey that they take with you, right? Which goes from like, okay, in the beginning, it's like they just become aware, either of you or your niche of photography in general. And then they start to be interested. And then they. After the interest is consideration, they're like, considering. Maybe they're considering if they want session at all, or maybe they're considering you and between you and another photographer. And then they're going to make a decision, right? So marketing does the first half of that, right? Like, that's gonna. It brings awareness whether you're meeting somebody in real life or they're googling and finding a blog, or they find you on social media, right? And then hopefully you're keeping their interest because they have followed you on social or they've opted into your email list, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, I think right around consideration and decision is when, like, again, like you said, I love that visual. Take off the tiara, put on the witch hat, right? And I think that, you know, that is where it gets bumpy for people, right? Like, they're like, I don't. I don't want to be the wicked witch. Like, I'm just. I just want to be the good witch. And then, like, you know, if people want to buy, they'll just buy.
- [09:25]
C
Well, okay. And let's take this out of the context of, like, a client coming to us. I want all of you to think about when you first started your business, because I know for me, in the lead up to actually starting my business, as I was talking to people about, I'm, you know, ooh, yeah, I'm getting ready to open the doors on my photography business. And I was building my website and I was posting on what was then a very, very early version of Instagram, and, you know, all this other stuff, and zero people gave me any negative feedback. It was like, your photos are amazing. You're amazing. Oh, that's so cool. You're starting a business. I can't wait to hire you. This is going to be a massive success. It was. I mean, you know, obviously there are instances where maybe your spouse or your parents or your family are like, you're doing what? But for the most part, when it comes to the content that you put out there, you're. You've probably gotten a lot of positive feedback and it feels really good, which is important because it gets you to actually do the work to start a business. But if you're anything like me, when you actually then open the doors of your business, you were like, okay, here's the price. All of a sudden, things got a lot quieter. And most photographers that I've talked to have had some version of that exact same experience where they were like, everything was so exciting, so exciting, so exciting. And then as soon as there was a price tag put on it, as soon as sales came in, right, Elphaba walks in the room and it's like, oh, here she is, the bad witch. And. And I feel like what happens is that experience in, early in our career as a photographer can really taint what selling feel.
- [11:16]
A
Or it.
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C
Like, it taints our experience of selling and makes us feel like that's the part that should be avoided at all costs. So what we want is what you were just explaining. Like, we just want to be like, here's some pretty pictures, and then have people, like, falling all over themselves to throw money into our bank accounts. And that's if you have some sort of magic formula for how to make that happen, we would be happy to hear about it.
- [11:43]
A
You have some magic the way that work.
- [11:45]
C
Yeah, exactly. Sadly, it's not the way that it works most of the time. Hang on, guys, I have a quick message for you.
- [11:55]
A
Hey, friends, it's Dana. Just popping in here with a quick reminder in case you haven't signed up for it yet. The Darkroom is our free companion app for the podcast. And inside there, you will find weekly action steps to go along with every week's episode so that you can actually start accomplishing things that you are hearing about on the podcast. And then what you might not know is that also inside the Darkroom, we have a special offer each month for the people who our members. And this month, because it's marketing month, the deal is when you join the consistency club, you get the Lead Magnet Lab for free. The Lead Magnet Lab is an AI powered tool that helps you really quickly brainstorm and create a lead magnet that will help you attract new clients. It's really cool. So just head on over to thiscan'tbethard.com darkroom. Sign up for free and start checking things off your to do list. I think that's a really good point because I, you know, I wanted to talk about, like, why does selling get labeled as, like, wicked? Like, why is selling such a bad word that everybody, like, cringes away from? And I think that's a really good point is like, early probably in your business, you had this experience of people saying one thing and then doing something completely different. And that made you feel like anytime you ask people to spend money with you, that was wicked, was bad. Right, Right. So let's undo that. Like, let's dig into that. Like, what is it about the actual selling process that feels so ick?
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C
Well, I don't know. I mean, I know ick gets a lot of traction these days. I feel like the real word there that I would use is vulnerable. Because unlike asking someone, you know, do you like this photo? Where it costs them nothing. A compliment costs nothing. Right. You can. You can tell somebody, honestly, I love your photos.
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A
Like, liking an Instagram post costs you nothing.
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C
Costs nothing. Although, damn if you wouldn't think that, like, it costs something. Sometimes it's hard to get those likes, however, so those, you know, compliment talk is cheap. And then. And then when you're actually saying, okay, here's the price. Are you going to hire me? The answer is binary. Like, it's either yes or no. And sometimes somebody will be like, oh, yeah, well, you know, not right now. Da, da, da, da, da. That's no. Let's. That's just no. Dressed up in a different skin, but, like, at the heart of it, you get a lot of no's, and that does not feel good to anyone. It's important that you build up your thick skin, like Elphaba, right, where you can handle that, because you have to ask, you have to get an answer from people. And that requires selling. It requires saying, here's how much it costs. Here's what I'm going to give you for what it costs. What'll it be?
- [15:03]
A
Yes. And I like what you said about Elfie has a thick skin. You're right. And I think the other thing about her is right. She is so sure of her morals and her. What she believes in. Right. So again, if you guys haven't seen the movie, there's like this moment where she goes to meet the wizard of Oz and turns out, spoiler alert, he's like, not the good guy everybody thinks he is. And Glinda is like, that's okay. It's fine. Let's stay on good terms with everybody and, like, be popular. And Elfie is like, no, dude. Like, we're going to do the right thing here. And so I think that's also a lesson we can take from, you know, marketing versus selling is like, yeah, it feels really hard when somebody says no to you, but if you can, like, put your Elphaba hat on and just be like, no, but like, this is what's right for my business. And so by asking someone to spend money with me and, you know, if that's not right for them, that has nothing to do with me. Like, I am still confident in myself and my business and my magical power.
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C
Okay, I. This is actually making me think of something that I teach in simple sales, right? So one of the major pieces of the simple sales blueprint is me helping people walk very thoroughly through their numbers so that when they set up their pricing in simple sales, it is custom built for their business. Right? It's going to make sure that their offer is profitable, that every single session that they photograph is. Is profitable. What ends up happening with the probably vast majority of my students is that when they go through that process and they run those numbers and they look really carefully at all the different costs in their business and everything else, I'm going to say 75% of the time, those students haven't done it thoroughly or even at all before. And they come out the other side and they realize, oh, I need to be charging a lot more money for what I'm offering. And that's a hard. It's like, it comes up a lot. It's in our Facebook group all the time. And we have to do a lot of talking about, you know, okay. Because what a lot of photographers do. And I would be surprised if anybody in the consistency club listening right now hasn't had this experience where maybe early in your business you get a phone call from somebody or an inquiry from someone and like, you just instantly are like, I love this person. I really want to photograph them. This is the perfect fit. You know, maybe you go stalk them on Instagram and you're like, oh, this would be great for my portfolio, whatever. And then they come back to you and they're like, I can't do it. It's too much. And your Glinda reaction is, well, never mind. You don't need to pay my full prices. Like, the wizard of Oz is a pretty good guy. Or like, we'll just pretend like he's fine. And so you make some big, you know, song and dance about like, oh, we'll just do it as a freebie for this time and maybe they'll come back and hire me later, Whatever. I'm sure that everyone who's listening to this is nodding along and being like, yep, yep, done that, done that, learned that lesson probably the hard way. Because even though every once in a while that'll work out well, most of the time, it's. It's almost like you get punished. You know, no good deed goes unpunished where you try and do something to
- [18:26]
A
like a wicked song without even knowing you did. I'm so proud of you.
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C
Where you're smoothing out, you know, you're trying to, like, make everybody happy, and then you end up just doing so much more work on the back end and you're not getting paid, so you're feeling that, like, resentment or you're not getting paid as much as you should be getting paid. So in the simple sales blueprint and that. That community we talk a lot about, look, once you understand your numbers, you know that if you're not charging enough to. To make those numbers work, then you are running a business that will eventually fail. Like, it's just reality. There's nothing. There's no. It's not good or bad or anything else.
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A
It's real.
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C
And I feel like that approach is very Elphaba, right? It's like again, taking off your tiara and being like, look, in order to continue doing this as a business, in order to continue making art, if that is what you in fact want to do, you have to be able to say, it sounds like it's not the right fit right now. And I love stories. I've had them myself. I've heard them from other people millions of times. Where you have that conversation, it feels vulnerable. You mourn that loss in some ways, but the right people ultimately will come back to you and they say, oh, man, you have been on my wish list for three years. We have been saving up money, and then they turn into the best clients. So I just. It's like, I know it's hard, and it is totally appropriate that I'm the Elphaba character here. When I was. I've. I've told this story before, but when I was like, in my early 20s, just out of college, I was being hired for a job and they were talking to me about the different positions, and I was like, well, the one thing that I don't do is sales. I really had this fear of selling. And then fast forward 10 years after that, I started my photography business and I had to get comfortable with sales. So I just kind of leaned into it. I learned everything that I could, I did in person sales for a long time. It's one of those things where you do have to thicken your skin up a little bit, but it allows you to be the best version of your business because you are operating profitably. And it's A win win because. Because it works.
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A
And so when I was thinking about this episode and why I wanted to bring it to you guys is because, you know, we spend so much time market spend so much time with RTR on in our little bubble, making people obsessified with us, right? That I don't want you to forget that you have this second part of your business where you know, you need to be the powerful witch that you are. And like anime is saying do what is right for your business. Because if you are familiar with the wicked story, really, in the end, it is this story about how, yes, Elsie is misunderstood, but really, in the end, what the story is about is together, they're unlimited, right? That's one of the little songs that they sing is like that they're unlimited their power together. And that was really the idea that I wanted to get across to you guys is like, if you're only doing marketing, right, you're just creating people that are like obsessed best with you, but there's no action happening. And if you're only selling, which I feel like is not many photographers, right? But like, you know, if you're only selling, that feels really abrupt and cold, right? And maybe that looks like you don't do any email marketing except when you're asking people to book sessions.
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C
Buy now.
- [22:10]
A
Yeah, yeah. Then people are like, right, you can't do either one without the other, right? To get the power. Is that them together? Glinda and Elphaba, marketing and sales handshake situation, right? That is where the magic will happen in your business. So I want you guys to start to think about in as you're doing your marketing, like that you are teeing. Glinda is teeing up Elphaba, right? Like, it's like you're doing all this work over here to make your sales part a lot easier, right?
- [22:44]
C
And if we all had a huge business, like a team that we were running, we might have people who were stronger at one and some other people that were stronger at the other as photographers. Most of us are wearing that tiara and that witch's hat, and you just need to practice switching them up and taking one off and putting the other one on and understanding that they do
- [23:08]
A
work best together as a team. Honestly. Do you remember this? I feel like it was like when Covid happened and people were like all working from home and there was like this thing going around a little for a little while that was like, if I. People were literally wearing a hat in the house to be like to their spouse don't talk to me. I'm working right now, and it really worked. And I think this. This visual of, like, taking off the TR and putting on the witch's hat, like, if that works for you guys, like, take that like you. You do. I think one of the hardest things about being a solopreneur that has to wear so many hats is being able to code switch between all of those different things. So. Helps.
- [23:50]
C
Yeah, I was gonna say, as visual people, I feel like it is kind of good to imagine those two characters and understand that neither of them is wicked. Like, they are your. They are your team, and that is, you know, that's the support. So if you haven't seen the movie, you should totally see it and sort of think about this at the same time and then use that as your motivation. If you ever are, you know, somebody who waffles when it comes to sales or you struggle when it comes to pricing, this is a good way to think about it. I love. You know, this is. This is why I love working with you, Dana. You're. You and I do we make a good team, and. And it's a sales and marketing combo as well.
- [24:34]
A
Yep. All right, you guys. Well, I hope you really enjoyed this episode. And I guess that's it. Just let your witches live in harmony and make sure that you tell us how much you love this episode, because I have been just so obsessed with doing it.
- [24:49]
C
Yep. Absolutely amazing. Okay, we'll see you guys next month.
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A
See you then.
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C
Well, that's it for this week's episode
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B
of this can't be that hard. I'll be back same time, same same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode along with all the relevant links, notes, and downloads@thiscantbethard.com learn. If you like the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review in itunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.