B (3:25)

Great. No problem. Yeah. So I am in a tiny little town called Lebanon, Pennsylvania. It's about 30 minutes from Hershey, Pennsylvania, where they make all the chocolate. And I started my business in 2019, the fall of 2019, which is the perfect time to start a business right before a pandemic. So I photograph families, newborn maternity, and graduating seniors. And as you might imagine, that year was a little bit of a rocky start. Rough start.

A (4:00)

Yeah.

B (4:00)

Right. And I also. I didn't know the first thing about what I was really doing. I was kind of just trying to figure it out as I went, which is totally fine. You gotta start somewhere, right?

A (4:11)

Mm.

B (4:12)

But by the end of that year, so we couldn't photograph basically, for that six months in the 2021 or 2020. But then by the fall, people were more willing to have outdoor photo sessions, and so I was photographing people. And by the end of that year, I looked at my numbers, and I was like, man, that was a lot of work for that amount of money.

A (4:39)

Yeah.

B (4:39)

And so I started kind of looking around and seeing what I could find, and that's when another photographer actually recommended your podcast. So I. What, got familiar? I totally binge listened to all of your episodes and then signed up for the little. What did you call it? It was a masterclass at that point. I can't remember. But anyway, yeah.

A (5:02)

For Simple Sales.

B (5:04)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I ended up fully on board, you know, drank the Kool Aid, 100%. And lots of people signed up for Simple Sales Blueprint, which totally revolutionized my business. I mean, to this day, I still say that was one of the best investments I ever made. And I'm so glad that I made it when I was basically a newer photographer, because it set me up immediately to be profitable and I didn't waste a whole lot of time. So. Yeah. So. But doing that, I was very familiar with the whole donkey Workhorse unicorn model, which I'm assuming your listeners will be too at this.

A (5:46)

Yeah, I have been talking about that all month, so.

B (5:49)

For sure, yeah. So I would have identified myself not quite as a full on unicorn, but a. I can't remember, I had this like certain term for, I think I called myself a shiny workhorse or something.

A (6:02)

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

B (6:03)

I remember.

A (6:03)

Sparkly, wasn't it?

B (6:05)

Sparkly or something like that. Yeah. So I didn't want the high touch point of a unicorn. Like I didn't want an after after session sales session, for instance. But I did want my clients to have the sale like the in home, like not in home, sorry, the product part to their session. And so I knew I didn't want to just be a digital photographer, you know. So anyway, I have been in business since and basically growing every year except for one year, which I want to get into.

A (6:41)

I was gonna say, sure, yeah, like keep it going. Like, yeah, okay, the story has started, you, you've hooked me in.

B (6:47)

So I, like I said, every year I was more and more profitable. Except I had one year in 2024 where I dipped way below and not necessarily in the red, but just I was asking myself all the questions of is this worth it? Should I be doing something different? My inquiries were really down and I was getting ghosted a lot, which is just so damaging to your self esteem really. Totally. And the clients that I was working with, they didn't really turn out to be super ideal. And so it was just felt like an uphill battle. Like I was just like pushing a rock up a big hill, you know.

A (7:32)

So before we get too much further on that, I would be curious now that that's a couple years ago and it's not fresh because I feel like when you're in the middle of it, it's very difficult to have any perspective on it. Do you have any sense whether it's like, you know, for sure or you just have like a clearer picture of what might have happened that year? Did you feel like there was a shift in your local market? Was it something, you know, a new photographer in the area? Like, do you have any idea what was going on?

B (8:04)

I still am not 100% sure. And I think that was one of the reasons why it was just so mind boggling and frustrating to me. It is because I, I was like, do I need a different homepage? And so I redid that and do I need a different marketing strategy? And so I like put all this energy into that and you know, do I need to be doing some sort of fundraising and, or like participating in fundraisers and so I can do all that. And I think the bottom line was as close as I can figure it. I think the bottom line is just that the economy was really uncertain and people, what we do is more of a luxury item. And I live in a really small town and you know, there's just not, not a, not a big appeal to luxury photography in the same way that I would have been if I was like in Philly or something, you know. So that's the best I can figure.

A (9:08)

Yeah.

B (9:09)

And I, I may never know.

A (9:11)

I was gonna say that is. I think that's true for a lot of photographers. And I was curious just because, like, I didn't know whether you were gonna be like, yes, I have an answer or no. It's very difficult in the moment. We have these like, you know, we wake up at 4 o' clock in the morning and our brain is like, it's because no one likes you or whatever the case may be. Your photos are terrible. But you know, those are, those are not necessarily the most rational of thoughts. And to your point, it's like when you're in that position, you're like, what do I change? Do I change one thing at a time? I don't really have time to wait for the results on changing my homepage to see if that like changes my whole business. Cause it'll take months. So it's a, it's a tricky thing to approach from like, you know, there's no scientific method when it comes to this stuff. Unfortunately, no.

B (9:58)

And I think it was just so frustrating to be like, if I only knew what to fix, you know, like, who, who can tell me what to fix? And I'll fix it, I promise.

A (10:08)

I'm happy to do the work. I'm here to work. Yeah.

B (10:11)

Yeah. So it was just a very challenging year. And by the end of that I was like looking around trying to see if I should do like a really hard pivot into a completely different business or a category. So. Yeah, but I had this little thing in my back pocket that I, I actually remembered you're teaching about donkey, workhorse and unicorn. And I was like, maybe I could just switch the model a little bit. And so instead of asking people to invest a whole lot of money into one photo session, maybe I, maybe there's a market for people who want tiny little photo sessions, more bite sized pieces. And I had been approached by my children's school, like I think it was the year that I started photography about doing their school photos, and again, I didn't know anything about what I was doing. I think I charged like, $5 for a digital download or something.

A (11:16)

Sure, yeah.

B (11:17)

But because I'm me and I like to do everything, like, 100%. Like, I had been developing it over time. So I had started out as a natural light photographer only, and I realized the limitations of it with school photography, because you go into a school and you don't always have access to a window or they want you to shoot in some random room. And I couldn't. So I was like, okay, I'm going to learn off camera flash. And so I did. And at each stage, I kind of, like, identified my own pain points in the process.

A (11:52)

Yeah, sure.

B (11:53)

Wherever I was meeting friction. And I took steps to kind of erase that. And so I realized at the end of that, when I was thinking about my business, I was like, I have this workflow ironed out. I have this system all mapped out. I have the tools I need to start offering this to other schools and to start seeing if there's, you know, a demand out there for this.

A (12:18)

Okay, so you're, like, imagining and, you know, dreaming and scheming and starting to do the work. But I have to ask at this point, because I feel like in every business pivot, there's this moment where you go from maybe this could work to like, oh, this is actually working. Did you have, like, a moment like that?

B (12:42)

I think the first time I got a school that had, like, you know, maybe 150 students, and I made about $5,000 from it. You know that the wheels start turning when you're like, okay, so this took me three days to photograph and two days to edit, you know, and all during while my kids are in school, by the way. So that's a nice little bonus.

A (13:10)

Amazing. Yeah. That's kind of a total paradigm shift, right? So once you had the workflow dialed in and you knew that this could be profitable, did you start looking at other places that you could apply the same model?

B (13:25)

So, yeah, so in the beginning, when I first started doing this, and I was kind of mapping it out in my brain, I was thinking, okay, this is going to be kind of like that sweet spot where income and marketing meet. So because I had already developed this workflow and this system, I knew that I could then take that and easily apply it. So I ended up taking the same model that I was using for my one school, and I offered it to a couple different musicals around, and they took me up on It. So right there, you've got, like, a whole new demographic. I was able to provide headshots for the actors and costume shots for the actors, and then I could show up at each performance night with a table full of gorgeous prints that everyone attending the show was gonna be able to see. Yeah, you're not paying, like, a Google Ad or something to get your name out there. You're actually. People are paying you to come show your work. And so all of these sessions, these tiny little sessions can naturally flow in to my more standard offerings that I still have. Although I will say, in the last year or so, now I feel like I have options. Now I feel like if I wanted to, I could just lean more heavily into this volume photography. Or I could. If I'm, you know, if it's doing its work and I'm getting more flowing into my business, I could back off of it. I have so many options because I didn't pigeonhole myself and I didn't, like, stick to my one. My one model where I'm kind of like, no, no, I'm a workhorse. I'm not donkey.

A (15:17)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and it is funny. I mean, that is the downside that I have seen about labeling these business models is that, you know, it's like you kind of get. There's, like, an identity crisis where you're like, this is what I am.

B (15:30)

Yeah.

A (15:30)

And of course, because I named them the way that I did, everybody's like, unicorn equals good and donkey equals bad. And I really have worked to dig myself out of that hole because I feel like this poor donkey model gets a bad rap. Whereas I feel like, to your point, it does give you a lot of options. And one of the biggest benefits about a model that focuses on volume is that when you lose a client to another photographer or they move or whatever, you barely feel it. Whereas when you're only doing, let's say, 30 photo shoots a year, and each one of those needs to bring in five grand, or whatever the numbers are, if one of your longtime clients leaves for some reason or another, you've got a big hole to fill, and you've got to find, like, a kind of a unicorn client to fill that space. Versus when you are working with volume, you can take those little ebbs and flows, and they're not as hard of, like, the edges aren't as hard, if that makes sense.

B (16:36)

That's very true. However, I would also counter with this. These are the types of clients who expect to get photos every single year. I have found that My upper level, the clients that do end up spending $5,000 or whatever, they don't want to drop five grand every year. They might still be your client, but only be like maybe two to five years or so.

A (17:02)

Right, right.

B (17:03)

But these clients, because you're in kind of the school photography mode of thought, you want to document your kid every single year, and even if that means, you know, buying like three prints every year, then that's what you're going to do. And so I have way more recurring clients with my school photography. I'm just saying that the percentage is quite high.

A (17:29)

Yeah, for sure. So talk to me a little bit about making that switch and how you went about ensuring that your volume model was still profitable.

B (17:44)

Yeah, I think the, the hardest thing for making the switch is just landing the client honestly, initially at least, you have to find the right, you still looking for the right demographic. So you have to decide, you know, are you willing to work with babies at a daycare or two year olds, which are notoriously the worst with back especially.

A (18:08)

Yeah, yeah.

B (18:10)

But I've found that the best method is just to poll your friends and see where are you taking your kids to school and do you have an in with a teacher or even put it in your newsletter. Would you like to see this style of photography in your school? And would you book me a meeting with your principal? Because sending out flyers, I think these schools get so many flyers and they get so many calls and things. So. Yeah. So in the beginning, you know, it's a little, it can be a little daunting. Similar to finding your ideal client.

A (18:44)

Yeah, I mean it is another client. It's just a different scale. And I, I imagine that is daunting when you're certainly when you're beginning. I think it's daunting for all of us. But I'm also curious about that, the switch, not just in terms of the model and all that, but like your pricing had to follow with that. Right. And I would love to hear how you went about figuring out what you were going to charge because you said that at one point you were doing, at the very beginning you were doing school photos and charging $5 a photo. How did you approach that this time around?

B (19:19)

Yeah, over the years with the school that I was working with, I developed a price sheet that seemed to work. And of course the first thing that you have to look at with anything is your cost of doing business. Right. You have to look at what, what you're charging versus what you're spending just to exist in that Space and there's different ways of pricing like digitals and things. And it's interesting anomie because I do think pricing is one of the hardest parts of this business because it's even different around the country or different, different demographics. Like you can find photographers selling like the digitals gallery for a hundred dollars or you can find them selling them for $200. And it really can kind of depend on where they live. So sure, yeah, so that is tricky. But as a whole I also like to just look at what people are spending per order and if each family is spending around 80 per order, then that's my target goal. That's like after all my, my expenses to the software, to the software that I'm using, like the credit card expenses and stuff. So yeah, that number is for school photography we should say and like musical photography. Now the thing with that is that all of those studies students and musical participants, they have been volunteered basically for your services. Their parents don't get a say in who the photographer is. They just get to see your work when it pops up. And so that number is actually a little bit lower versus offering a pop up. This is the other thing you can do is you can offer a pop, like a pop up studio. It's the same exact offer, but those parents frequently spend, I'd say around double what the volunteers spend. Yeah.

A (21:20)

So you've got your, you had a workflow that was sort of dialed in already. You worked on creating pricing that was not 100% locked in but scalable based on what your like market was or target location was. And I love that you're. I just, I guess I want to reiterate that your understanding of your numbers has to be pretty thorough in order to be able to switch that like turn the dial up or turn the dial down. Like it's really helpful to have that kind of baseline understanding of what your costs are, how much time things take you. So again, sometimes people think donkey model and they think, oh that's just a, that's a low priced photographer and they're only priced low because they don't know what they're doing. I actually feel like the art of volume pricing is, requires in some ways more knowledge and understanding because the, the margins are tighter.

B (22:19)

Definitely, definitely your profit margins are going to be tighter. Yes. And that's something that I would say to any volume anyone looking to get into volume photography. One big mistake that I see volume photographers making is trying to figure out all the ways they can save money. And so they're like Well, I could have all the products shipped directly to the client, but if I enter them into Rose myself and I, if I give, I could save a hundred dollars and girl, your, your time is your money, you know, like, yeah, there is no way you can scale that business by doing that. Like, can you even imagine if you know, the owner of Anthropologie was like, I know other people could set up the display, but I, I'm really good at it. I'm really good at this.

A (23:14)

Yeah.

B (23:15)

And I think I should do this exactly how I want. And anyway it's going to save me having to pay someone else to do it. You know, how many anthropology stores do you think there would be?

A (23:26)

You know, so one or zero.

B (23:28)

Only one people.

A (23:29)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

B (23:31)

So volume. When you're thinking about volume, you have to think in those terms that there is a real trade off. Like if you're still going in there and like airbrushing every photo and spending, you know, 10 hours editing because it's a ton of photos, like it's, It'll frequently be 500 photos per shoot. And that's a low number. That's a low number. And if you're going in and making all these tiny little galleries and, and each one has its own little password with the kid's birth date on it, you know, like, no, no, no, no, no. It's money well spent to learn how to like just pass that on to someone else who's really good at it or a software program that's really, really good at it.

A (24:21)

Right.

B (24:21)

Because then you can take on. You're not those 10 hours that you're spending on that editing could go toward a different school if you're, you know, and so like sure, you might save a hundred dollars, but you're going to lose $5,000 by not taking on that other school. So yeah, it's. I get a little worked up when I see people.

A (24:44)

Well, it's, it's really true. And I do think that automation and outsourcing are one of the things that I see not just with volume photographers, but with photographers at every level. It is one of the bottlenecks that are like those self imposed bottlenecks that really create kind of a ceiling for some people where until they get past that and kind of get out of their own way, they can't go on to make more money because the things that they're clutching onto as like, no, I have to do this because it's too expensive or it's going to take too much time to figure out or whatever they're excuse, honestly is for not taking that next step. It's just keeping them stuck where they are. So I really appreciate you saying that because again, I think another misconception with the lower priced model is well, if I'm going to lower my prices then all of my expenses are going to have to disappear basically. And that that's a completely unsustainable balancing act. So.

B (25:47)

No, I 100% agree. I, I think that it's more expensive to do volume. In my experience, it's more expensive to do volume photography because I'm bringing it. Because I'm using programs that I'm paying to do the tedious work that I don't want to do and that I don't need to do and that frees me up to do other projects, you know, that bring in money.

A (26:11)

So let's, yeah, totally. So let's actually talk a little bit about what you have found to be the non negotiable components in that system. Right. So what are the tools that you're now using that make this volume business tick?

B (26:30)

Yeah, so this past year I started doing, I started using Imagine AI. I built a profile specifically for my, my style. I use a white background. It has nailed it almost every single time. It has like got, I mean I'm telling you, anime. Before we, before we hopped on this call, I started editing a session, a school session. I started at 8:30, probably was done by 10 and.

A (27:00)

Amazing.

B (27:01)

Yeah. And the only reason it took me that long was, was because I also duplicate every photo. I'd make, you know, copies of every photo and I put black and white filters on. So that's the only reason it took me so long. If I was only using Imagine, it would have taken me maybe 20 tops 30 minutes I think. Yeah, yeah.

A (27:20)

Which is, I mean that is a new thing obviously since I have become a photographer and I guess even since 2019. Like the AI editing revolution is nothing short of revolutionary. Yeah, it is amazing.

B (27:33)

I will never go back.

A (27:35)

Yeah, yeah.

B (27:36)

But again I'm not like drawing them into Photoshop and like you know, doing all that. And I also utilize GOT photo, which I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it basically you can input the information like the student name, the parent name, the contact information, phone numbers if they want texts, blah blah blah blah. And the system will generate these little QR cards that you used. When you photograph each child, you photograph their QR code and then you photograph the child. And then when you go, once you've Edited everything. You edit the QR codes right alongside with the, the child, the child's photos. So when you export them and you load them into the program, it automatically sorts them, creates individual password or pass passwords. Well, individual galleries. The galleries will be sent directly to the parents. You know, there's no, oh, I don't want my kid shown on the website. You know, there's nothing like that. It's. I used to, I definitely used to upload, you know, however many hundred galleries, individual galleries, and I will never ever do that again.

A (28:55)

Yeah, the admin side of that of volume has again. I mean, these are all problems that some smart person looked at and said, this is not, you know, somebody needs to fix this. And now we have the tools.

B (29:08)

Yeah, thank God they did. But there's a cost to it. You know, you pay a subscription fee and they also take. What's that word? They take like commission. A commission. There you go. They take a commission based on your investment level into the program. And so. But it's. I look at it like it'd be the same if I was hiring a VA to do all that work for me. So, you know, I'm happy to pay it. And I know the program like the back of my hand at this point. Right, right. Yeah. I also have been using ChatGPT or you know, AI tools too, because with Got photo you have to create a spreadsheet like in a specific order and you can input that information. Sometimes you don't know who's, who's signed up and who hasn't. And so there's different ways that you can utilize CHAT GPT to make it so much faster. So that's becoming part of my workflow is. Yeah. Utilizing that. Yeah. And then of course I'm partnered with a lab. So I'm partnered with Color Inc. Which they are some things that are really important to me. They're like a small US based lab. Their prints are really high quality prints, but they're not super overpriced. You know, I shouldn't say overpriced. They're like reasonably priced prints. And so it does. That is one thing that I would look at as far as profit margin. But you want kind of a nice medium. You know, you're not going so far as like offering fine art prints where it's taking half your commission.

A (30:46)

Right.

B (30:47)

But yeah. So I mean, for the smaller schools, parents can just set up direct shipping or I can set up direct shipping and it'll just be directly shipped to their house. Or you can do a batch order through them and they will actually sort all the photos into like their individual envelopes with little name cards on each envelope and you can even have them insert marketing cards for you too. So. Yeah, so I mean, I know I've heard of photographers just inputting a batch order into, you know, Miller's or whoever their, their chosen lab is, and then they just get all these, this giant stack of photos and then they're, they're in there sorting them and I'm gonna pay $35 to Color Ink to do that for me,

A (31:40)

definitely. Okay, so that sounds very doable. If anybody out there is listening to this and is like, okay, I think I could do this, what would your advice be in terms of thinking it through all the way to the end before you dive in head first?

B (31:57)

Yeah, what a great question. So, so I do think that you need to do your research first. You need to know what you're offering. I mean, same as anything, right? And like I said, like, you need to find the tools that are going to smooth out those pain points. I would definitely recommend doing a trial run somewhere if you can, so that you can really see what it's like. I do have something that I'm offering for photographers to get them started and it's all of the tips and tricks that I have learned over the years of how to avoid those pain points, those like, places of friction. It's basically my workflow, start to finish. And so if that's something that appeals to you and you're interested, I'm just offering it over on my website.

A (32:54)

Love it. Yeah, I feel like being able to look over someone's shoulder and see like this is exactly how they're doing this and managing all of it, even if your process doesn't end up becoming exactly the same, is invaluable. Like it, it is so helpful to, to be able to not have to create that wheel on your own a hundred percent. Well, tell everybody where they can find you and see some of your work and get in touch with you if they've got follow up questions.

B (33:28)

Yeah, great. So I am at www.naomiboyerphotography.com and my email address is just Naomiomiboyerphotography.com not a lot of creative effort went into that one.

A (33:45)

That's quite all right.

B (33:47)

There you go. It's easy to remember.

A (33:48)

Oh, that's so good. Well, Naomi, it has been a pleasure chatting with you, catching up with you and honestly, I am so excited to hear how well things are going and always cheering you on. So it's been lovely to catch up. A thank you. All right, well, have a wonderful day. Well, that's it for this week's episode of this Can't Be that Hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads@thiscantbethard.com learn. If you like the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review in itunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.