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- [00:00]
A
My dad was the original systems person in my life when I was growing up. If you needed something out of his office, you could go to him and ask him to locate anything, no matter how small or irrelevant, and he could walk into his office and come out 30 seconds later with exactly that thing in his hand. The problem was that nobody else could, because to the untrained eye, his office was like a secret sea of piles of paper, which drove my mom completely bonkers. Like, she was constantly after him to clean the office up. And, you know, we need to get this organized. And his answer was always the same, which was that it is organized. I know exactly where everything is. For him, that worked great, right? It was a system that he created. He understood it. It worked all fine and good, except that the problem with a system that only lives in one person's head, or in my dad's case, in one person's office, was that if he wasn't available, then those things couldn't be located, right? The thing is, a system that lives in one person's head, or in my dad's case, in one person's office works fine as long as that one person is always available, always healthy, always, you know, present, you know, never wants to take some time off or get some help. Because the second that my dad wanted to hand anything off and have somebody else go fetch a piece of paper or whatever, he was out of luck, right? And if you are in a situation where you are the only one in your business who knows where things go, how things work, where things live, then anytime that you want to hand anything in your business off, whether it's to a person or a tool or to AI, then your own personal set of piles becomes a problem. And that's exactly what today's episode is about. We are in the midst of our beyond the Bottleneck series, where we're talking about what it actually looks like to build a business that doesn't depend entirely on you doing every single thing, every single time. And I've got my friend Kolee James back on the show today. If you've been listening for a while, you know Coley well. She's been on the show a whole bunch of times. She's a systems expert. She used to be a photographer. She is a genius at all things automation and organization. She is a CRM specialist. And every single time that we talk, know that not only is my audience going to go away with good information, but I know that I'm going to leave with something that I can actually use. And today is no exception. Today, Coley and I are diving into the practical side of what it means to get your business ready to hand things off. Whether that's in the immediate future for you, or whether it's just something that's kind of on your horizon, right? Whether you are looking to hire someone, create some sort of automation or system, or even turn to AI. The more organized and available your information is, the faster and easier those things become. Because if the information that someone or something needs doesn't exist outside your head in a form and a place that they can actually access, access it, then you are still the bottleneck, no matter how many tools you bring in. So let's get into it. Welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Anna Mi Tonkin, and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it, and I can show you how. My dear Coley, how are you?
- [04:03]
B
I feel like that's a loaded question at the beginning of summer, but I guess my answer to you is doing pretty decent. I mean, I. I haven't been to Disney in a while, so the other day I posted on threads. I feel like a Disney trip would make me feel better. It would bring me out of my funk. So, I mean, maybe I should just schedule one and just go and just, you know, just do it.
- [04:23]
A
I hear it's the happiest place on earth, so when is funk?
- [04:30]
B
Yes. And actually I don't think I've talked to you since I went on a cruise. So now I've been on an entirely new Disney, you know, experience. I mean, that's what I really want to do. I want to go back on another cruise, but and cannot live on a cruise ship, especially when they're an online service provider. So, you know, I have to limit.
- [04:48]
A
This is the perfect example of like, you are my dear friend and I love so much about you and everything else and that I'm like. What you have just described are my own two personal ideas of hell.
- [05:02]
B
I know that, I understand that, but
- [05:04]
A
our free time is apparently spent differently.
- [05:07]
B
Spent so differently. And James was such a good sport about going the first time, he actually let me book another one. So I'm going on another one in October and this time we're taking the kid because we didn't take her last time.
- [05:18]
A
Well, good. Do what Makes you happy. That is the whole purpose of being your own boss, right? Yeah. Well, I am thrilled to have you back on the show. I feel like it's been a minute for a while. I felt like we were in a nice little rhythm and then I was sort of doing some planning and I was like, I haven't talked to Coley recently enough. But it really came up just because the topic that I wanted to talk about today is like, has your name all over it. So in our businesses, and I know you and I have talked at length about this, we often become our own, I don't want to say worst enemy, but kind of like the bottleneck in our business where we are the thing that is stuck. Like our limitations on time, on energy, on whatever, are the thing that, you know, it's like you're pushing a rock up the hill and then at some point the rock starts to move of its own accord. And sometimes you get in front of it inadvertently and you're slowing it down. And when that happens, there are a bunch of ways that you can get out of your own way. You can hire people, you can lean on systems, you can work with AI. I mean, there's so many different tools and resources out there. But again, you can be in your own way around that, where you've got systems in your head. You have, you know, all of your processes are. They just live in this way that makes sense to you. But without an effective means of communicating those things to someone or something, handing anything off becomes really difficult. So I wanted to bring you on to talk about this because I feel like you know this as the service provider, like your work as a photographer and then in the education space, and then also the fact that you are a service provider to other people who come to you with, I'm sure, various states of chaos in their businesses. And just the fact that like your brain works in this very sort of systems driven way I think will lend a lot of insight into how people can get started or even just kind of check themselves about where they are. Because in theory, this episode and this series is all geared toward people who are at that point where they're like in their own way and they're the bottleneck. But the truth is that even if you are brand new to business and you're like, there's no bottleneck. The bottleneck is, I need more clients. Or if you haven't even started a business yet, there are ways to sort of prevent that from becoming a bottleneck for you in the future. Because even though It's a good place to be. It's still a problem when it happens.
- [08:06]
B
I feel like. And I feel like I've talked about this a couple times in, like, the last month to other people where that wasn't even the thing that we were supposed to talk about. I was recently a guest on a podcast where she was basically telling me, how do we convince people that they need to take the break from client work in order to set up systems that will then do the work for them? Because, you know, a lot of people will get in that, let's call it booked and busy phase, where you feel like you're getting enough clients, everything is working together, but you know that you legitimately could not take one more client without everything falling apart around you. And it's the thing where, you know, you sit down and you're like, wow, it would be really great if I didn't have to do this. But you feel like you can't afford to take the time to train somebody else to do it or to set up systems to effectively do it for you. So it becomes you are the bottleneck because you might recognize the problem, but you feel like you can't afford to hit pause, even temporarily, to fix it. And so then the thing is, well, how do I convince you that, you know, spending 10 hours this week, even if you get behind on editing, is worth it? Because then it's going to give you 10 hours back next week to work on your editing and probably 10 hours back the next week to work on your editing. And so it's just like, hey, like, recognizing that you're the bottleneck is the first step. But then making time for the change, whether that is outsourcing, like you said, to a piece of tech or an actual person, or delegating it to someone else on your team, if you already have team members, is like, it is a problem. And it's something that you have to just decide is worth it to you, your business, and overall, like, your sanity.
- [09:54]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I heard this described, and I know I've said this before on the podcast, as you're riding, you're pedaling a bicycle, and you're like, pedaling, pedaling, pedaling so hard. And a car pulls up alongside and said, hey, can I give you a ride? And your answer is, no, I'm too busy pedaling my bicycle. And it's like, if you could just pump the brakes for however long it takes you to come to a safe stop, get out, get off the bike, and get in the car, you'd get there a lot faster. But you do have to stop the bicycle, which feels like a slowdown. And so, yeah, it is a. It's like the problem, I think, is that a lot of people recognize that when it's like the wheels are coming off, like it's a real problem. And then they legitimately don't have the time or they, you know, they're running into like things are kind of falling apart.
- [10:50]
B
And then there's this thing that my friend Zoe talks about called object permanence. And it's. She talks about it in a way where if you're not in front of your clients, they kind of forget you exist and they don't, you know, come back to rehire you again. But I think that that happens to photographers between like busy season and then slow season. I feel like if I can get those people like right at that moment, like you said, where, you know, it's like everything is about to come apart, if I could convince them that right then spending, you know, however much money it is to have somebody else do it or to take the time to do it themselves would be better for themselves and their business, long run, it would be good. But then after busy season, you know, you're delivering all the images and then you come into January and February and you forget what it was like in the fall when you were about to lose your mind. And so it's making sure that it's connected to. Yes, some people wait until that moment, but then that's the moment that you have to decide, even if you can't take a break right then, that it is a high enough priority to where you never want to be in this position again. But if you wait too long, you don't remember what it feels like and then you forget what a priority it should be.
- [12:03]
A
I love that she uses object permanence. My other major as an undergrad was developmental psychology. And so object permanence is a big one, right? Like the baby, the 10 month old. The experiment is like you show them a teddy bear and then you hide the teddy bear behind a wa. And then you pull it back out and they get surprised because, you know, to them when it went behind the wall, it disappeared completely. Yes. So it's like a magic trick. And that is, it's a funny way to think about, like when it's right in front of you, you're like, I will never not be thinking about this ever again. And then it does, it falls off. And I think that it's important to remember that that happens. For us. And it sounds like you and Zoe were talking about. It happens for our clients too. So when we feel like, oh, I'm trying to, you know, I'm sending too many emails or on social talking about the same thing again or whatever, it is like we have to do that because otherwise we are essentially the teddy bear behind the wall for. For our clients. So.
- [13:00]
B
Yes, they just forget that we exist.
- [13:02]
A
Yeah. Well, okay. So, side note. So on both sides of this, I'd love to just kind of have you dive into what is your approach. Let's say somebody comes to you and they're like, everything in my business exists basically in my head and I have no idea where to start, because I think that's the other piece of it is that it feels really overwhelming. You know, that you know what you need to know, but you don't know how to convey that or in what order. You know, it ends up being quite the cluttered closet in there.
- [13:36]
B
I think the first thing that everybody thinks is really overwhelming, but you just have to get it out of your head. Whether that is you voice noting and basically putting it on your computer to deal with it later, or if you are still a pen and paper person and you start, you know, drawing out diagrams and making lists of all the things that you do with one particular client from beginning to end. But then the second part of that is that once you get everything out of your head, nothing is requiring you to solve the entire problem at one time. I think if I've learned anything in the last two years, because my business in the last two years is very different than what it was before. I am all about micro tasks and micro wins, because my brain does not allow me anymore to keep track of everything. Even though that was what I was really good at before, I can't do it anymore. And so I do feel like it has kind of put me in the place of my clients a little bit more. Like I'm a little bit more understanding. Not only do I. I mean, I could see what you're doing and I can understand it. So once you've got everything done, I think the key to making success towards systems, getting you in a position to again, outsource it to a piece of tech or to a person, is to tackle the things one by one and not feel like you have to do everything at once. What you do need to do is get everything out of your head. Because if you are the only person in your business that knows everything that's going on, you will never be able to outsource it to anybody else besides yourself. So I think that we overlook the value of just getting everything down on a piece of paper and it doesn't have to make sense. I think the problem is people try to make sense of it as they put it down and the whole purpose of getting it out of your head is not to kind of create the systems then it's just basically to write down all the touch points of everything that you do with your clients and then you can make sense of it later. Then you can create workflows and automations and improve your assets and do all of those things later. And all of that is getting you to a place where you would be able to create workflows inside of a CRM or hire a virtual assistant or whatever your version of help is to help you do that. Or I mean, we're talking about your business, but there's so many facets. I mean, there's the client experience, there's your marketing, there's your sales, and all of those have systems overall, or at least they should because that's what helps you see, stay consistent in the different parts of your business.
- [16:02]
A
Yeah, yeah. So I met you when you were a very well established photographer. You'd been doing your own systems for a long time. You were really good at them. At the point that I met you was that, although always the case, I mean, I know you're a pretty analytical, what's the word I'm looking for? You seem, at least on the surface, like an extremely organized person in general. So maybe that's just the way you started. I don't know that I've ever asked you that before.
- [16:30]
B
I mean, I did and before I knew what a CRM was. So to give context, because I feel like you and I are both so far out of photography at this point that like, I have to remind myself what I used to do. I started my photography business in 2012. I didn't have a CRM until 2015, so I did manage it all on my own for three years. And in those three years, if we compared what I did to other people, I was probably more on the organized side. I mean, I thought that I had invented something miraculous when I made templates in Google and started resending those to clients instead of copying and pasting. The last time that I sent it to a client, I mean, I wasn't using a CRM. I had something called Jotforms, which allowed me to do the questionnaire, the contract or whatever, and then get paid at the same time again. I thought I had, like, invented bread. It was so fabulous when I was able to do that. And then in 2015 was when I discovered the first CRM that I ever had. And I was like, oh, wow, like, this is great. And I went, like, all in on anything that I could organize and streamline and automate. And then I was like, yeah, but this is so ugly. So then two years later, I switched to a different CRM, and then I switched to the one that I, you know, now help everybody set up. But way back when, I mean, I think I was trying to invent my own CRM, which. Hey, Onomy, I think you and I can agree on this. If I was starting as a photographer now and I didn't want a CRM, I could figure out how to make it work in Airtable. Or now that we're in the coding phase. You and I were talking about AI before we started. I could probably code myself my own CRM. Like, I'm too lazy for that now.
- [18:06]
A
But if.
- [18:07]
B
If that existed back in 2012, 2013, oh, I would have totally used something like lovable to code my own CRM because I wasn't happy with what the ones that were out there did. But, like, I didn't have the ability to just run out and make my own.
- [18:23]
A
Right. Okay, but that actually brings up something that's kind of an interesting piece because I was talking to somebody who actually works for Make.com recently, and they were saying they were talking about how, like, the entire Internet is built more or less the same way, and everybody's tech stack. Like, you can say whatever you want, but it was like, there's the. There's the database layer and Airtable. It's like the baby data base. And then there's like, Salesforce and, you know, whatever the other ones are. HubSpot. I don't even know because I feel like I am married to Airtable, which,
- [19:03]
B
I mean, going back Automy, I feel like this is my moment in this conversation where I can be like, I really tried to bring you to the dark side, and it took way too long for how obsessed you are with it now.
- [19:13]
A
I know, I know. I admit, I concede that I owe you. If I had an art. If you. If. If you want my firstborn child, I'll talk to him and see how he feels about it. So anyway, so he was talking about this layer, the database layer, where all the information is stored, and then there's like, the internal systems that companies use to access the data, and then there's the External layer where it's like, you know, the website that you go to or the whatever, that's sort of generally available to the public, whether or not that's gated with some kind of login. Anyway, it was kind of an interesting simplification to me of the Internet, which just sort of seems like this, like, magical unicorn cloud when I think about it. But the reason that I bring that up is that the. You're saying, like, if I knew then what I know now, I would build my own CRM. But the only way that that's possible comes right back to what I wanted to talk about, which is that you've got this data organized in a way that you could, you know, I mean, yes, there are tools available, but the data and the. When I say data, I feel like it sounds maybe to other people like I'm talking about, you know, numbers and graphs and whatever. And I just want to point out, like, I'm saying that the information, your clients, your processes, your, you know, this is step one, this is step two, this is step three. All of that is data. When it's structured in the way that I'm talking about. Is any of this making sense to you?
- [20:44]
B
It is.
- [20:45]
A
Okay, well, hopefully it's making sense to somebody else, too. But I think that that is really the reason that I wanted to talk. Let's get back to your work with photographers or other clients that you work with, where you are helping them do things like set up CRMs, organize their. Their chaos. How do you help them extract what's necessary in order to get that stuff organized?
- [21:12]
B
I literally ask them the question, and what happens next? Over and over again. I mean, I think this is two layered. So first, when I'm working with someone to help them organize their life and their business, I want to know what you're doing now. And then I make suggestions on how to make it better. But literally, to get you to tell me what you're currently doing with your business now, or what your clients need to know from you at every step, I just ask you, okay, when someone comes to you to work with you, like, what do they do? And they're like, well, you know, what do you mean? Because I'm asking the question in such a simple way that they're like, that can't be what she's asking. And I'm like, literally, what do they do? Some of my clients say, oh, they contact me on Instagram. And other ones say, oh, they fill out my website contact form. Okay, and then what happens? And I'm Just I'm continuously asking that question so that they can tell me all of the ways that they have to make a decision on what to do with their client next. And then that's when we start to, you know, like, make decision trees. And, like, okay, well, if you tell them to book a discovery call and they do, well, what happens then? Okay, if they don't, what happens then? And then I say, well, how much time do you want to give them before you give them a friendly nudge? I mean, that is literally my entire job when I am trying to figure out what you are currently doing with your clients, because that's something that photographers don't realize. But maybe it's a little better now than it was like, 10 years ago. When I say, what are your systems? People look at me like I'm crazy. But when you start to tell me the things that you're doing with your clients, even if it's all in your head, that is your system now. Could your system be improved? Probably. That's why you came to me in the first place.
- [22:52]
A
Yeah.
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B
But we all have systems. We all have processes in the ways that we work with our clients, and we just need to figure out if those are currently working for you or if they're harming you in your business and how we could make it better to free up time to where you could go do something else, anything else in your business or your life besides manually managing your clients every single step of the way.
- [23:17]
A
Mm, absolutely. I love that. It reminds me of that. Have you ever heard, like, the five whys? You know, where when you want to get to the heart of a matter, you ask the question why? Five times. So you know, why. Why did you start a photography business? And then somebody answers that question, and then you follow up with another why. And if after you've asked it five times, you really get to kind of the heart of whatever the.
- [23:42]
B
Whatever the question is. Yeah.
- [23:44]
A
And I feel like, obviously you're. This is a little more linear, whereas that's intended to dig down to the bottom and perhaps they could be used together. But I do think that just sort of using that toddler brain and being like, okay, now what? Okay, now what? I just wish I could hit a
- [24:02]
B
button every time I ask them. And then, like, it also helps me uncover the things that they're doing because someone else told them to do it. And it's probably not the way that you would do it if you, like, really sat down and thought about it. Because, like, I have a lot of people that are like, oh, well, you know, I give them a week, and I say, okay, but why a week? And they're like, oh, I don't know. I've just always done that. And I'm like, okay, but, like, does a week make sense? And then I start asking him more questions and they're like, well, no, actually, I. I would prefer to do that in two days. Okay, well, let's change it to two days because you're the boss of your business. But, like, unless you actually think of all the things that you do. Because one thing that's coming up for a lot of people, and this is photographers, designers, copywriters, all across the board, is that a lot of us are feeling like our clients are not doing things in a timely manner. And then I always flip it back to the business owner. Okay, but do you know what a good timeline for this is? And a lot of times they don't know it, but then when we go through it and we think about it and I say, okay, so how can we make sure that your clients are doing, you know, step A to step B in less than three days? Well, we're going to tell them that we expect them to do it in three days. We're going to send them a reminder to do it, and then when they do it, we're going to give them the immediate next step so that we can keep the process going. I think that not a lot of people really own up to the fact that it's your business. And if you want something to happen on a timeline, you are the reason that it does or doesn't get done. I mean, you can blame your clients until the cows come home. And at the end of the day, if they don't do it, that is on them. But if you have not made an attempt to, like, remind them of a deadline, give them all the information and educate them so that they can do the thing in the timeline that is all part of organizing your business in a way to where you can stop doing everything at every step, all on your own.
- [25:48]
A
Like you. I started using a CRM. I think mine was, like, 2015. But prior to that, I had been emailing people a contract that they then had to like. At the time, I think they were actually printing it, signing it, scanning it.
- [26:04]
B
We feel so old when we say that now, though.
- [26:06]
A
I mean, I'm like, how has the world changed so fast? But that's what was happening, and that was a real bottleneck in the process. So, you know, there's. Yes, there's like, reminders and stuff like that. But there's also examining each of those steps and thinking, how, what are. What's the friction here? Why is this slowing people down? Is it like a huge block of text? I mean, it can be such small, tiny improvements, things that cost nothing and don't, you know, like even just the layout of text, or am I making somebody read a bunch of text or did I make them a little video or, you know, whatever, just to make things easier and faster, more digestible for people. Those things can really improve. Not just like staying on task and staying on track, but ultimately, like your client experience. People don't want to feel like they hired somebody, spent a whole bunch of money, and then had a whole bunch of homework to do.
- [26:59]
B
That's true. And right now, one of my kicks, and I'm literally planning a free training around it right now, but eliminating discovery calls and sales calls, I don't. I don't know if it's just our current climate. I feel like if I tried to. Well, I did try to have this conversation with people three years ago and they all ignored me. But at this point, everybody is like, not wanting to be glued to their computer 24 7. And so part of that is, do you really need to get on a call with every single person? Some people say, yes, my process is so custom. Other people say, well, I do things different than other people and I need to make sure that they have all the information. Yeah, but getting on a call with them one to one, synchronously, is not the only way that you can disseminate that information and make sure that they understood it. So, like, I am going through this, like, decoupling of. But if you're insisting on a sales call or a discovery call, why? What are the things that you're actually doing on the call that you think make it required, important, whatever word you want to use and really take a step back. And is there any other way for you to disseminate that information to where you don't require every single person to get on a call with you? Because this is about bottlenecks, right? One of the biggest bottlenecks, if you require a sales call of every single person, is availability. And if you can't talk to that person for four or five days, they might find someone else. So is there a way that you can communicate that information in a system better that could, you know, not have to make them wait four to five days and maybe you still get on a call with them? But did you make an attempt to not make the process stop until you are available for your client. So I mean, that's just like an example of how I would take a process that you are currently doing and figure out if there is a way to get it done in a way that, you know, doesn't require you to, to be an active participant.
- [28:52]
A
Yeah, that's like a bottleneck within a bottleneck. Okay, so let's get back to the, the main plot here, which is we've got all these systems and processes and ideas and information and whatever the case may be in our minds. Maybe we have some of it in a CRM, maybe we have some of it in a spreadsheet somewhere. Maybe somebody has listened to us and gotten involved with airtable. Other than your process, are there other things in somebody's business that you coach them to kind of move out of their mind and into some sort of systematized, organized place when they are considering starting with a new piece of software or trying to hire somebody or are there any of those things that you organize that you feel like are really important at this point?
- [29:48]
B
I mean, I, I really focus on the client experience. So I think we talked about all the things that like I focus on in a paid capacity. Yeah, but like when my clients have their clients, their client experience, you know, dialed in in a CRM, they may have hired a VA or not. I mean then most people get obsessed with, okay, but like I'm spending too much time marketing my business. What does it look like for me to create a system around that to make sure that, you know, you're not doing a lot of things that you don't have to. And I can't believe that we've gotten 27 minutes into this conversation. And while you said the data many times, I don't think that you meant it in this way. But like you and I are both big components of looking at what you've done in order to make data driven decisions in your business. So I do feel like this is that point where when you've got one system down, you should then analyze the data of your other aspects of your business to see what is more pressing to address next. So like, one thing that a lot of people, a lot of photographers feel is that they just waste so much time on Instagram. Well, if you're writing every single caption from scratch, if you're not getting any kind of AI help when it comes to writing blog posts, you know, writing the captions, creating the carousels, all of those things, I think it's time for you to figure out well, how much of your week is actually spent creating content for Instagram? How much money is that actually bringing you? Are you getting clients from Instagram? And if you are, then what kind of system can we create to make the activity of creating these things less for you? Or if you're not making sales from Instagram, what are you actually making sales from that you could put more time into? So, I mean, I think that once you've done this process for any of your systems, whether it's marketing, it's the actual sales process, it's managing the client experience, you can take what you learned and just apply it to the new way. In terms of what are you currently doing? Are you getting an ROI from it? Are there any tools that would help you save time on it? And then how can you take what you're doing, put it in the tool, and then measure how much time it's actually saving you going forward?
- [31:57]
A
Yeah, yeah. So it's almost like the second wave where you've got that information organized and over a period of time, you're collecting the results of whatever those efforts are, and then you take that. And I think this is where you were going with this. I feel like this is one of the better uses for AI is to say, okay, look, here's how my last 15 emails performed, or my last, you know, six months of emails performed. Look at all of this information and pull out for me what is working, what's not working, what should I be doing more of, what can I let go of? And I mean, email is kind of a very specific thing. You can get granular like that, but you can also look at, you know, can very quickly serve up to you all kinds of angles and ask questions that will help you think about, you know, what are the decisions going forward. It is so hard in our industry to, and especially when you're working solo to get any perspective on, like, what's working and what's not. It's like, ask me on a week when I got a bunch of inquiries and booked a bunch of work, and my answer is totally different from when, you know, things are feeling slow and scary and whatever. But data, I feel like, helps level the mental playing field a little bit so that you can be a little more objective about it.
- [33:23]
B
And I want to give an example because I feel like you and I think about this in a totally different way as we are both educators. We both have, you know, things that are not just a service provider, but, like, let's talk about specific photographers. I have been talking all the Time about giving your clients a feedback form. We ask multiple things on this feedback form. Why did you hire me? What did you love about working with me? What could have been better? Like we're asking these questions and if you're reading every person individually as they submit it to you, and let's even say that there's maybe a couple weeks between when you're reading these, or maybe people submit them and you just glance at it and you just, you know, okay, they submitted it, you pull one thing or you know, whatever it is and then you move on. But once you've got 20, 30 of these, you know, feedback forms that have been completed and sent to you, if you run back through them and you read the answers to one question at a time among 20 to 30 people and you look for a pattern that is such rich data to help you figure out what is working. Because you know, if 13 out of 25 people, let's say, tell you that they loved this one thing about working with you, and that is not something that you are talking about on your sales calls, on your website copy, in your emails, but 13 people said that this was the thing that they loved. That's data that, that's something that you need to bring forward to see if it would attract more like minded clients. The same thing though, if they say something that they didn't like about working with you, you might have thought, oh, this one person said this, but really that was just them. But if seven people said it in like various degrees. But you might not know this unless you're bringing all of the data that you're collecting together and synthesizing it. And this is my absolute favorite use for AI is letting it read everything at once because it works much faster than we do and it can spit out the patterns that it actually sees.
- [35:20]
A
And it doesn't do the thing that we all naturally do, which is as soon as the yeah, get in our feelings. But also as soon as you see something like feedback about, oh, well, we wish that X, Y, Z had happened or this didn't go very well, you're thinking about that specific session or that specific client and your brain is throwing up all these like, it wasn't my fault this is what was going on and it was because of this, that and the other. If you can strip those feelings out of it and you know, maybe it is a one off or maybe a few people are bringing that up. The other thing that I was thinking about as you were talking about feedback questionnaires, you get similarly good data from Onboarding questionnaires. You know, when somebody first signs up and you send them the questionnaire, that's like tell me about your family, blah, blah, blah. Actually, I was going to say that information isn't necessarily important, but maybe it is. When you start to see patterns in the people who are actually hiring you, you can lean into marketing to those kinds of people more. You know, maybe you start to notice patterns that you're wedding clients. Are they all like outdoorsy type venues or something like that?
- [36:33]
B
You're going to that ica.
- [36:35]
A
Yeah, yeah. But you know that because that, that's sort of an outward thing. But sometimes you can find these little nuggets that are, that then become buzzwords on your website or in your social media. Seeing those patterns and getting objective can be super helpful.
- [36:52]
B
Absolutely. So coming back around to like where we wanted this conversation to go in that it really is just as simple as thinking about all the things that you're doing in your business. Figuring out what is taking the most time, what is giving you the best roi, figuring out places where you are forcing yourself to be the bottleneck and do something before the next thing happens. I mean, you just need an hour or two and you need to go sit in a corner with some music and a piece of paper or your computer if you're a typer and just write all of the things that you can think about that you do with your client from the beginning to the end. And then just pick one thing that you think you can tackle this week. And if you do one thing this week and you do one thing next week and you do one thing the week after, that is how you get momentum in terms of figuring out systems for your business to make your entire business run better. But also, I don't think that we think about how much mental health like strain it takes to run these businesses until you start developing systems that allow you to not do it 24 7. And so, I mean, if you are tired of your business, if you have been thinking that, you know this business is going well, but is this really what I want to do for the rest of my life? Like, I would take a gander that if you sat down and you tried to figure out how you could outsource even the smallest tasks and buy yourself back some time, you would fall back in love with your business in a way that you probably haven't felt in a really long time.
- [38:24]
A
Yeah, it is often the things that we never intended to sign up for that cause those bits of burnout, I mean, you know, it's rarely like, I hate working with the people that I love working with. It is usually, you know, it's the drudgery that goes with running any business. And there are tools and people to help with just about every bit of that drudgery. But you do have to give yourself the time and headspace to put that into place. And the best thing you can do, whether you are at that point, that breaking point, or you are way ahead of it, is just start to, like, get yourself to a place where if somebody came in and said, hey, coach, put me in. How can I help? You would actually have something that you could hand them and say, here, this is what I want you to do.
- [39:22]
B
I think the best thing that you could ever do, and I am definitely not the person that did this well, but when things happen in your life that actually prevent you from running your business, if you are the only person that is able to do things, that is when your business, you know, stops. It's when it crumbles. It's when it does all of these things. But if I could just tell you, you know, what happened. If, you know, your kid needed something next month and you were unable to work, or if you got sick or, you know, I don't. I don't really want to put all my trauma on someone. But when you know, something big happens and you can't see having the same amount of time to run your business, I think you should prepare for that now. Now, before it actually happens to you. Because when the thing happens, that is, when, you know, you dig yourself a hole or you get sucked in by quicksand or whatever analogy it is that we want to use. And like I always go back to, I didn't outsource a single thing in my business until I went blind. And when you go blind as a photographer, you don't have a choice. That is, I should be everyone's like, warning, you know, when this happens, you know, what is it that you're going to do? And if you start making strides now, even if it's as simple as writing the things down that you are currently doing in the form of a. And I really hate to say this out loud, but an sop because people get scared of those, like, that is the beginnings of letting someone else help you inside your business. Even if you don't think that it's a goal that you want, it shouldn't be something that isn't possible because you've never taken the time to write down the things that are currently happening inside your business.
- [40:56]
A
Right. And it doesn't have to be going blind. It could be somebody hands you a ticket for a month long trip around the world and says, but you have to leave next week. You don't want to be like, I can't leave because my business that I run is keeping me tethered.
- [41:14]
B
So, I mean, I want a Disney cruise for a month. It's funny, my sister got confused about the Disney cruise that I took. She thought it was three weeks. And I was like, they don't even really do three week cruises. She's like, I'm sure they do. And then I was like, yeah, actually they do. When you're going from, like, Australia back to the. But anyways, I would love if someone handed me one of those tickets and was like, oh, Coley, oh my God. I wouldn't. I wouldn't be able to say yes fast enough.
- [41:37]
A
You'd be like, I have the systems for that.
- [41:40]
B
Yes, I do.
- [41:41]
A
Amazing. So good. Well, it is always a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming back. For anybody who's new to you and your world, let everybody know where they can find you.
- [41:52]
B
Websites coleyjames.com and my podcast is Business First Creative site.
- [41:57]
A
Amazing. So good to see you. I'll talk to you next time. Well, that's it for this week's episode of this can't be that hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads@thiscantbethard.com learn if you like the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review in itunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.