← This Can't Be That Hard
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- [00:00]
A
So as you may know, there are only so many hours in a day, and for most of us as photographers, that's just kind of that once you hit the ceiling of the amount of stuff that you can accomplish in that day, nothing gets you past it. Not your talent, not your marketing, not your pricing. There's just this hard limit on how much one person can actually accomplish. But there is a bit of a hack when it comes to how you run your business, and that is an associate program. An associate program is one of the most direct ways that you can work beyond the limits of your calendar. Step away from those prime golden hour sessions, the morning sessions, the weekends and evenings, and all that sort of stuff that you may feel like you need a break from without having to necessarily step back from the revenue that you're making. So an associate program allows you to build something that doesn't actually require you to be behind the camera every single time that you need to make money. But associate programs are less common than I think they should be. I think a lot of people get hung up on the fact that running an associate program sounds complicated, which is why today I brought Ali Lee on the show to explain that it doesn't have to be that hard. Ali Lee is a Minneapolis based wedding photographer who's been running an associate team now for almost a decade. And the story of how she got started with her associate program is honestly worth it just for that. You're about to hear it, so I'm not going to spoil a surprise, but the short version is that like with a lot of things, sometimes necessity opens a door and you didn't even realize that the door was there. Allie really dives deep with me today. She gets into the nuts and bolts of how she finds and vets the people that she trusts with her brand. She talks about how she pays them, how she talks to her potential clients about associates, and she talks about the honest trade offs that come with using this model, because of course there are some. She also talks a little bit about who is and is not the right candidate for running an associate program. If you have ever thought, I wish I could book more, but there's only one of me. Or if you are in a position where you're like, I'd love to shoot less, but I can't afford to earn less, today's conversation is a great one.
- [02:28]
B
Welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. My name is Anna Mi Tonkin and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable Strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it, and I can show you how.
- [02:58]
A
Allie Lee, welcome to this Can't Be that Hard. I am so excited to chat with you today and to meet you. This is the first time that we've ever had the chance to. I mean, we've corresponded a little bit, but I have really enjoyed getting to know you and your business and all this stuff. And so I'm super excited to dive into today's conversation. But I would love to get started by just having you kind of introduce yourself, talk a little bit about what you do and, you know, how you got into running an associate team in the first place.
- [03:29]
C
Yeah, thanks for having me. I am a Minneapolis, Minnesota based wedding photographer. I started weddings back in 2012. So been over a decade of just riding the roller coaster of whatever this decade has even been for all of us.
- [03:47]
A
All of us, indeed. It has been a minute.
- [03:51]
C
Yeah. So just taking the hits and the highs and lows of COVID World and all of that. And also throughout that whole journey, I started my business. I got married super young at 21. When I started my business, I was actually 19 years old in college. So I wrapped up my college degree and just went straight into my business. And it's pretty much all I've known since. And then with the young marriage, I also was a young mom. So I brought in a baby at 23 years old. And that's right when, I mean, any parent knows, like, once you get pregnant, you're like, holy crap. My world and priorities need to shift here a little bit. So, right. We had to look at the sustainability of what I was working on. It was a lot of fun and it just kind of rapidly grew. So I'm thankful for that. But I also had this little baby that I had to figure out, okay, I don't want to be away from her every single Saturday of my life. And then another piece of my journey is I moved multiple states throughout the Midwest within that timeframe too. So I would be booking weddings for the following year. And then we moved for my husband's job. And then I had to shoot all of those weddings with a newborn and have to do all these things, travel, road trips, back to where I used to live. So it was just a journey. But I actually started an associate team in 2016. 2017. But fall of 2016, it started because I had gotten food poisoning and my Wedding was like five to six hours away and I didn't want to be throwing up the whole way down there. I didn't want to be thrown up on their wedding day either. So that was my first taste of associate work and hiring someone out to shoot the wedding for me. And then I edited everything and I was like, wait, this could be my answer to balancing a family and balancing my own time, I suppose, and growing my business in a more unique way than I had.
- [06:18]
A
Indeed. Okay, so there's so much to unpack there. First of all, massive kudos to. I can't even imagine starting a business as a 19 year old, but it just seems like you were on the, like, mature, had your act together path with marriage and starting a family and everything else. I mean, that is a lot for anybody to take on, much less somebody who's like, just figuring out how to, I don't know, pay their taxes and like sign up for, you know, for rent or something. So that's amazing. I didn't start my photography business until I was 30, so it was like I was already married. I had two kids. It was kind of. That was my path and it was just a totally different kind of a thing. So I always love talking to people who started right out of the gate because I feel like I just have so much respect for that. So thing number one, thing number two, I think it's hilarious that your associate team was like founded by accident, basically.
- [07:19]
C
What?
- [07:19]
A
Tell me more, just out of pure curiosity about what happened. Like, how far in advance did you know? I need to get somebody to shoot this wedding for me. And did you know the person or were you just like googling around to try and find somebody?
- [07:35]
C
I think I made the call at like 5 or 6pm that night before the wedding. I mean, any photographer is like, okay, I must be on my deathbed. Yeah. Or I will be at your wedding.
- [07:48]
A
Yeah.
- [07:49]
C
So making that call is never easy. But I mean, a situation like food poisoning, you're just like gonna ruin.
- [07:56]
A
There's not really an option if you actually show up. Yeah.
- [07:59]
C
So I felt the confidence to be like, all right, someone else being in the right state of mind and physical body.
- [08:08]
A
Sure, yeah.
- [08:09]
C
And do so much better for this couple than I could have done. So, yeah, it was like 5 or 6pm I had a networked connection. This was in my college town that I used to live in. So I knew of the person. I don't know if I knew them personally, but I definitely felt solid in their work and their reputation.
- [08:31]
A
Nice. And did that person end up becoming one of your early associates, or was that just like a one and done scenario?
- [08:39]
C
That was a one and done, just because I wasn't marketing myself in that area anymore. So we were moving to a different market.
- [08:46]
A
Right, right, right, of course. Okay. So you had this taste of making money without actually doing the work of showing up. You obviously did a lot of work before and after, and that planted this seed of an idea. How did it grow from there? What. How did you begin that process?
- [09:07]
C
I think pretty shortly after that, I started marketing. I built out packages within my packages for my associate team that I didn't really have at the time, but I had people that had been working with me pretty consistently. So I started there. I. I still.
- [09:26]
A
Second photographers.
- [09:27]
C
Yeah, second photographers who become, like, friends after a while. Because you're working there.
- [09:31]
A
Sure, of course. Yeah.
- [09:33]
C
So I. And then I think I hired one cold associate. Like, I hadn't really had a relationship with her at that point, but we started there. We had 3ish people to start, and I kind of just jumped right in. I feel like in anything in entrepreneurship, you're just like, all right, we gotta take the first step. If it works. Yeah, yeah, make it till you make it. And built out my packages, started sending those to brides, and people started booking them.
- [10:06]
A
Nice. And so in the beginning, were you looking to use your associate team just to book dates when you weren't available, or were you truly looking to kind of remove many of those dates off of your calendar completely?
- [10:25]
C
Yeah, it was a mix of both. I was able to decrease my amount that I had to take on, but my team has always been structured in a way that their prices are different than mine by, like, a thousand dollars. So usually that decision for the couple is made primarily on financial reasons. Sometimes they're like, oh, I want the face of the brand. I want Ally. Sometimes they just want to save a thousand dollars. So that piece usually is decided by the bride and groom rather than me being like, oh, I'm not wanting to take a wedding. And obviously if I don't want to take a wedding that weekend, I can always just say my associate is available and I'm not available.
- [11:10]
A
Yeah, perfect. So obviously, it sounds like a lot of your associates came, at least in the beginning, came through the channel of having been second photographers for you. So you were familiar with the way that they worked. They sort of knew how you worked. And I guess that could make it an easy way to feel confident in somebody's ability to represent your brand. But when you F when you hired the woman who was new to you, and potentially you've done that since then, what are you. What are you kind of looking for? Are you looking for someone who works a lot like you work, or does that matter less than it matters that you know, that you're confident that they can do a good job?
- [11:52]
C
Yeah, I am primarily personality based. I would rather choose someone who can hold the space for a couple and really care about them and really go above and beyond and make them feel calm, rather than the person that. Who has insane work but just does not have that. You just can't teach that. So I've been pretty consistently looking for personality throughout the years because I know that that is something that you can't teach and that has served me so well. I feel like I also look at the reputation in a way of like, does this person know how to communicate with me well and efficiently, quickly, as far as, like the backend work goes and like getting. Making sure they go above and beyond. A lot of my associates are the personalities that really care to go above and beyond and to do what they can to like, drive memory cards to my house or something like that, you know, like, if it's. If something like that is needed, they will. Yeah, something like that.
- [13:02]
A
Yeah. And do you find that most of the people who are applying or who you're hiring have their own independent businesses and they're just looking to pick up extra work based on the fact that you've got, you know, potentially more like a more established business or better SEO or whatever? Or is it really people who are looking to avoid having to run their own business and they just like photographing weddings and they're able to do that and this becomes something that they can do two Saturdays a month or something like that to pick up extra cash? Like what? I'm just kind of curious what the breakdown is.
- [13:41]
C
Yeah. I don't think I've ever had someone who didn't have their own business. I think that honestly is the dream scenario, like having a stay at home mom or someone that is truly focused solely on your business. Yeah, I just haven't had that experience. And I think in a way I have. A lot of people have come back to me and be like, ali, I would not be where I am without you. And I think that's a cool legacy to leave. Like the way that they start out as my associate and they learn so much throughout that process and then build their own portfolio from there. I personally allow my associates to use the work that they create through my brand, and it just skyrockets their own business. So with that model, they have a higher turnover of, like, I like to say, like three to five years. They'll stick around with me and then maybe go on their own.
- [14:34]
A
But that's not bad.
- [14:35]
C
Three to five years is.
- [14:36]
A
Yeah, I know photographers who were in business total less than that.
- [14:40]
C
So.
- [14:41]
A
Yeah, no, that's good. So. But it sounds like generally they're earlier in their career when they're working with you, and then they sort of graduate out to where they're able to book enough work on their own that they're like, I'm gonna go just do my own thing. Talk to me a little bit about that. I think you were saying you do let them use the work that they photograph under your name in their portfolio. Talk to me a little bit about. Because I feel like that's a question that comes up a fair amount when it comes to working with associates. What do you kind of think about that? Are there any rules about it? You know, talk me through that process?
- [15:19]
C
Yeah, I asked them to give me credit at the bottom. So I actually, a couple years ago separated their brand from Ali Lee, which is my main brand, and I gave them their own brand, which is Aligned Photoco. So at the bottom of their caption, they just have to say, shop for Aligned Photoco.
- [15:38]
A
Yeah, perfect. And then that obviously those little links all come back to you eventually. Is there anything with pricing alignment between Aligned Photoco and their brand that ever gets confusing? If they're simultaneously, you know, actively looking to book work under their brand and they are listed as one of the associates under your brand, if those prices are totally different, I feel like that could feel a little dicey. Is that in your contract at all or is that just sort of a. Kind of comes back to the fact that you're hiring people based on like that gut of we're a good aligned match in terms of personality.
- [16:23]
C
Yeah. I do like to take into account the online presence that each associate has because I know, I'm not dumb. I know my brides are going to find them in some way, shape or form. And there have been a few situations throughout the the years where they inquire with me and then I'll send, hey, so and so is available. And then that person will get the same inquiry because probably something in the process wasn't clear enough or. Sure. I mean, even if it is the clearest thing in the world, some people just inquire because the pricing does look different on their website. So I have had associates who are honest with that and send me a text and be like, hey, by the way, I just got this same inquiry that you just sent. How do you want me to proceed? And sometimes I'm like, you know what, I already have three weddings that weekend. I am totally fine if you entertain this. And then other times I'm like, yeah, let's honor and send her back to the aligned photo call route and make sure that process is clear. It is so much more than the photographer, you know, like it's the brand experience, it's the timeline, planning, lead up, it's the editing that you're getting. Like the whole experience is so different from brand to brand. So I like to clarify that if people have any questions about that price discrepancy. But yeah, when you are looking for an associate, definitely keep into account, like what does their actual Instagram look like? Like it doesn't need to be exactly aligned with you, but like, does it show that they have substantial work that's elevated in some way? And is it going to properly represent the team that you want to represent your brand?
- [18:18]
A
Because to your point, people are going to find those people and they should. I mean, obviously like the person who's going to come spend the day with them at their wedding, they're going to get to know them and they're going to want to follow them on their independent Instagram and all that. So you, I, it makes sense to me that you would want to make sure that that was good, you know, a good representation of your business as well.
- [18:40]
C
Yeah. And I have found the girls that do have a great website presence have booked higher within my associate. They have a higher booking rate with my associate program. Sure. And I will also say I don't necessarily send them their direct Instagram or website.
- [19:04]
A
Yes, of course. No, that makes perfect sense. I just figure people do a lot of Internet stalking out there.
- [19:11]
C
Yeah. And sometimes they do ask for it. I'll send it to them. I don't really care at that point.
- [19:17]
A
Right, right. Well good. Okay. So talk to me about how you talk about the fact that it is an associate based business and how you talk potential clients through that process. It's a bit different from the way that you represent yourself when you are the only one who's going to be making any photos.
- [19:42]
C
Yeah. So I'll just break down the process. I'll say you have the option of working with me. I'll be there a day of your engagement session and your wedding day. Some people just prefer the face of the brand. I have been shooting weddings since 2012, so I have a lot more experience than a lot of the people on my team. However, a lot of the people on my team have been shooting for at least five years. So it's not like they have no experience.
- [20:07]
A
Right.
- [20:08]
C
But yeah, I just break down that different route and I say as the main point of contact throughout planning and I personally do all the. The editing as well. I have tried so many times to get an outsourcer to work throughout the years, but have not found that sweet spot without having to re edit everything. Sure.
- [20:28]
A
So, but the nice thing about editing versus photographing weddings is you don't have to do it on a Saturday evening.
- [20:34]
C
So yeah, for real, you could do it anywhere around the world. I will say that is my biggest pain point that I've had throughout this whole experience of having a team is the insane amount of editing workflow.
- [20:49]
A
Yeah.
- [20:49]
C
That is added to my plate. So you just have to take that into account. Know that your reality, you're going to be making more money, you're going to have more free Saturdays, but you're likely going to be editing a lot more.
- [21:05]
A
Yeah. Or less managing. Even if you do have an outsourced. Like I started outsourcing my editing many years ago and it's amazing. But there's still, you know, there's still back and forth, there's still upload and download time, there's still going through the final gallery and making sure that it's like all touched up. I mean it's not a zero process. Process, but certainly, yes, that it seems like a worthy, worthwhile pursuit to. To see how you can get some of that work off of your plate.
- [21:36]
C
Yeah.
- [21:36]
A
Do you do any. I mean, it sounds like your associates are taking engagement sessions, which is a kind of portrait session. Have you ever worked or talked to other photographers who are doing this in family photography or any other sort of niche other than weddings? Or do you have thoughts about how that could or could not work?
- [21:55]
C
Yeah, I have tried it a few times with newborn sessions. Like say they shot their wedding and I want them to do the newborn as well. Honestly, it comes down to a pricing and profit at that point. It's hard to pay them a fair wage while also pricing these smaller sessions. Depending on what the pricing is for. Makes a lot more sense for like a senior or a brand shoot that is higher than like a mini session for a family.
- [22:24]
A
Sure.
- [22:25]
C
So you really have to sit down with your profit margins and be like, does this make sense? Sense? So I think it could Work. I have a friend who is a brand photographer who has a whole associate team. Based on that, she charges, I think like minimum a thousand for a brand package shoot. So it makes sense in that setup to be able to afford to pay someone as well.
- [22:51]
B
Sure.
- [22:52]
A
So let's talk about how you pay your associates and how that works. Do you have kind of a model that you've stuck with over the years? Is that something that you've kind of refined over time?
- [23:03]
C
Yeah, I've always been hourly. I started at 100 an hour and now it's like 1:25 to 1:50 an hour. And I have enjoyed that setup. I think you could also look into percentage base. I haven't ever dove into that world or tried to figure that out. It's just simplest and easiest for me to be like, hey, Ashley's shot for nine hours on Saturday and then send it over that way. Yeah.
- [23:36]
A
And it sounds like it's pretty straightforward in terms of you're doing all of the pre work, prep work, all that sort of stuff, communication with the client, and then you're doing all of the editing and delivery process after. So the hourly really comes down to just the shoot time. Is that accurate?
- [23:54]
C
Yeah, yeah. And then the engagement session. I paid them a flat fee of 200 for this.
- [24:00]
A
Yep. Nice. I wanted to ask about the sort of legal side of when you're signing a contract with somebody. Is that pretty? Do you do a standing contract? Do you do a per job contract with your associates or how does that work?
- [24:20]
C
Yeah, I used to do a single contract per wedding. Honestly, my team has gotten to the point where we know each other so well and I am so comfortable with them. They're like my real life friends at this point. So contracts get loose at some point, which I don't recommend necessarily, but as
- [24:41]
A
I say, not as I do usually
- [24:43]
C
at the beginning of the year now I'll just send them like a contract that has their specific dates and then if we add anything on, I'll just send a separate one for that.
- [24:54]
A
Sure. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And I totally get it. I mean, I'm a big, like, have your legal ducks in a row. You don't ever want to be in a position where you are on, you know, the. The losing side of an argument if you get into a sticky situation. But it does change when you know people and you've worked with people for a long time and there's that mutual trust.
- [25:15]
C
So.
- [25:15]
A
So. And I think that, you know, as long as you are maintaining, you know, we have A standing contract. We've worked together this way, operated this way for years. That's good. When you first got into it, did you like talk to a lawyer or did you just look for a contract template?
- [25:34]
C
I think I originally found a template online, but I did have girl named Winnie Reese. She's from the Creatives Council. She works with creative entrepreneurs on contract based stuff. So she's looked over my contracts multiple times. She's a great resource if anyone's looking for someone to just look over with a creative's eye in mind. I think she was originally in the wedding industry as well, don't quote me on that. But she definitely is very familiar with the wedding space and creative space. So nice always having a lawyer look over whatever template you end up stumbling on and they can piece together like, okay, within the state of Minnesota, does this work?
- [26:22]
A
Right? Yeah, I think having it looked over by a local lawyer is always a good idea. Especially when you're then juggling kind of a three way contractual obligation because your clients are signing a contract, you know you're in. And so it becomes. It's just that one further step removed. And you want to be really clear on who's responsible for what and you know where. Because at the end of the day, if you're the company that the couple is hiring or the family is hiring or whoever, you're going to have to be the one. If anything were to happen that would answer for that.
- [26:59]
C
Yeah. And I also have a pretty similar contract within working with my couple that's similar to my weddings. But I think I've adjusted a few things. Like it's very clearly stated at the top of the contract, this is an associate wedding. Allie Lee will not be present that day.
- [27:19]
A
Right.
- [27:20]
C
So it just has slightly different lingo but pretty similar if you base that contract off of your own contract. And one thing I have learned over the years is that it's very important to have a clause within your associate contract for what happens if a client cancels. Because it's something that we think about maybe ourselves with the retainer. But if your associate is holding this date for you, they're going to want some sort of compensation. And even if they don't specifically ask for it, I think like building that team structure and the, the trust and the leadership, it's just fair to be able to offer them something and have a clear plan in place.
- [28:02]
A
Yeah. Does. Has that ever come up?
- [28:05]
C
Yeah, it has.
- [28:06]
A
Yeah. And do you mind me asking what that clause is? Like what. How does that trickle down to Your associate.
- [28:14]
C
My contract says 50% of the wedding payment minus any travel costs will be paid to the contractor. So if they were contracted for 10 hours, I might send them like 500ish dollars.
- [28:28]
A
Right, nice. This has all been great. I love just kind of getting the nuts and bolts of all of it. But I am curious whether there are photographers out there who you would say, I don't actually think that this is the right model for you. Like, what do you feel like are the necessary markers that make a photographer ready or not ready to take on running an associate business?
- [28:54]
C
Yeah, I have personal friends who are like, oh my gosh, this is not for me. After running a team for even like six months, you have to enjoy the backend at some level. You have to enjoy building out timelines, managing an email inbox, unless you have an assistant running that for you. But like you said earlier in the episode, like, whatever happens falls under your name. So there have been sticky situations in the past where I've had to just take the brunt of it and say I'm sorry and just have that humility and business customer service to be able to offer what I could in that moment. I think the best way to know if it's for you is to try it on in some capacity. Maybe taking on like one or two, or you could just dive right in for a year and see if it's for you. But it's going to come with an increased workload, which is primarily backend. It's going to come with some leadership and you're going to have to have hard conversations with people and have clear expectations. If it's clear to you, it probably needs to be even clearer. You know, for anyone who's digesting your info and the specific training that you're going to walk your associate through. So it's very, very important that you either do like a complete deep dive into the interview process, multiple interviews, and working with an associate for three to six months minimum before you're booking anything for them, or you're just so comfortable with your regular second shooters that you're like, all right, the next step here for us is to move into the associate space. I trust you wholehearted heartedly and I trust what you're going to say in a room, in a getting ready space, or speaking to the uncle of the bride. You know, like, right. You have to have trust on multiple levels with your associates.
- [30:56]
A
Right. So good leadership, good communication, good organization. It sounds like all the running, all the workflows and inboxes and all that sort of stuff. And that willingness to be sort of the, I don't know, tip of the spear or whatever, you're the one who is at the. Is at the front when people are happy and when people are upset. Yeah, I think that that's good. And I think that in some ways I've never run an associate program, but I have run a team and it is a different role. So even more than maybe your own level of experience as a photographer is your ability and your willingness to step into that role of being kind of the manager, the boss, which is more responsibility in a lot of ways, but. But also to your point, potentially more profitable and frees up your time for money trade that so many photographers feel.
- [31:57]
C
Yeah, I would say the industry is probably made up of 70% more creative people than business focused, system focused people, maybe like 30% and are able to really enjoy the business practices as well and marketing themselves and keeping things organized. So if you feel like you're in a space that in your business that is set up well for your own weddings, you have a pretty good understanding of how to rinse and repeat at that point, I would say you have a solid foundation for that.
- [32:33]
A
Well, Allie, this has been a pleasure. As I said, I really appreciate you coming on the show and talking so openly about this. Tell everybody where they can find you and maybe where they could reach out if they have any other questions.
- [32:46]
C
Yeah, I am Ali Lee Co on Instagram, which is a L I L E I G H C O. So feel free to send a DM on there or alili.com perfect.
- [32:59]
A
I appreciate you and hope you have a great day.
- [33:03]
C
Thanks for having me. Bye.
- [33:06]
B
Well, that's it for this week's episode of this can't be that Hard. I'll be back same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads@thiscantbethathard.com learn. If you like the podcast, be sure
- [33:24]
A
to hit the subscribe button.
- [33:25]
B
Even better, share the love by leaving a review in itunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.