Podcast Summary: This Guy Sucked – Episode on Charlemagne with Dr. Matthew Gabriel

Introduction In this episode of This Guy Sucked, host Dr. Claire Aubin delves into the complex legacy of Charlemagne alongside guest Dr. Matthew Gabriel, a professor of Medieval Studies at Virginia Tech. The discussion aims to peel back the layers of myth surrounding Charlemagne, presenting him not as the glorified figure often depicted in history, but as a ruthless empire builder whose actions had profound and often brutal impacts on Europe.

Charlemagne: The Historical Overview Dr. Gabriel provides a comprehensive overview of Charlemagne, highlighting his role as a formidable ruler of the Frankish Empire from 768 to 814 AD. He explains how Charlemagne expanded his empire across most of Europe through relentless military conquest, encompassing regions from the Pyrenees in Spain to Denmark in the north, and from the Rhine in the east to the Italian Peninsula in the south.

Dr. Gabriel [02:03]: "Charlemagne himself was an 8th and 9th century ruler. Under his reign, he expanded the empire to encompass almost all of Europe at the time... And he did that by violence. I mean, he did it by conquest..."

The Brutality Behind the Empire A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the violent methods Charlemagne employed to build his empire. Dr. Gabriel emphasizes that Charlemagne's expansion was marked by horrific violence, including the massacre of 4,500 Saxons to enforce Christianization and the strategic relocation of entire communities to maintain control.

Dr. Gabriel [15:29]: "The Saxons are converted and then they are forcibly relocated out of Saxony... Their entire way of life was broken down. This was a conquering force that was taking them over."

Aubin adds that the often-celebrated peace and stability attributed to Charlemagne’s reign were built upon these violent foundations, drawing parallels to other historical injustices where the suffering of the oppressed is glossed over in favor of a triumphant narrative.

Myth-Making and Legacy Building The discussion transitions to how Charlemagne's image was meticulously crafted posthumously to serve various political and ideological purposes. Dr. Gabriel explains that the first biography of Charlemagne, written by his courtier Einhard, was less an objective account and more a tool to model ideal kingship for his successor, Louis the Pious.

Dr. Gabriel [25:00]: "Einhard's biography of Charlemagne... is not intended to be a factual biography. It's supposed to be kind of a model of kingship for Louis the Pious and for subsequent rulers."

Aubin points out the extensive mythologizing of Charlemagne, noting that over a thousand legends were created shortly after his death, portraying him as an ideal Christian king and a pan-European hero. This myth-making effort was aimed at legitimizing contemporary rulers and fostering a unified European identity.

Modern Utilization of Charlemagne’s Myth Both Aubin and Gabriel explore how Charlemagne's legacy is manipulated in modern contexts to serve various agendas. Dr. Gabriel highlights how different groups, especially in the 19th and 20th centuries, appropriated Charlemagne's image to support nationalist and expansionist ideologies.

Dr. Gabriel [44:11]: "With Charlemagne, for example, like, he is infinitely malleable... people use him for whatever you want to justify and create a historical basis of justification, whatever belief you're trying to return to now."

Aubin elaborates on the reciprocal relationship between the myth of Charlemagne and the concept of a unified Europe, illustrating how each reinforces the other despite historical inaccuracies.

Dr. Aubin [37:58]: "Charlemagne as the Father of Europe props up the idea of a singular unified Europe, which then props up the idea of Charlemagne as the father of a singular unified Europe."

They also discuss contemporary examples, such as the Nazi Party's fluctuating portrayal of Charlemagne to fit their expansionist and nationalist goals, further demonstrating the enduring malleability of his legacy.

The Struggle of Historians Against Myth A significant challenge highlighted in the episode is the difficulty historians face in combating entrenched myths about historical figures like Charlemagne. Aubin and Gabriel express frustration over public perception and the resistance to nuanced historical interpretations.

Dr. Aubin [49:18]: "It's the opposite of the crypto Jew thing. It's like Trajan is a crypto Christian."

Dr. Gabriel underscores the importance of critical analysis and the meticulous deconstruction of historical sources to uncover the truths obscured by myth.

Dr. Gabriel [28:02]: "Trying to bring that kind of contingency that, that possibility of history, that the unknowability, but also how we can know what we know about the past to wider publics."

Conclusion The episode concludes with a strong affirmation that Charlemagne was not the paragon of virtue often portrayed in textbooks and popular media. Instead, he emerges as a complex figure whose empire was built on violence and whose legacy has been shaped by strategic myth-making to serve various political needs over the centuries.

Dr. Aubin [53:37]: "I think we've gotten to the point of me believing that he sucked... But I also think not only does he suck, but the image we have of him sucks."

The conversation ends on a note of advocacy for historians to continue challenging and refining our understanding of historical figures, ensuring that their legacies are portrayed with accuracy and integrity.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Claire Aubin [00:00]: "This Guy Sucked is the show where we prove that it's never too late to have haters and you can't libel the dead."

• Dr. Matthew Gabriel [10:47]: "The biggest problem with Charlemagne is that he's an agent of empire and in fact a creator of empire. He unleashed horrific violence for his own benefit and for the benefit of his family..."

• Dr. Claire Aubin [37:58]: "Charlemagne as the Father of Europe props up the idea of a singular unified Europe, which then props up the idea of Charlemagne as the father of a singular unified Europe."

Final Thoughts This episode serves as a critical examination of Charlemagne, challenging listeners to reconsider widely held perceptions and acknowledge the darker aspects of his reign. Through engaging dialogue and scholarly insight, Dr. Aubin and Dr. Gabriel provide a nuanced perspective that underscores the importance of scrutinizing historical narratives.