Dr. Claire Aubin (3:00)

Yeah. I mean, I. I will say there's something very funny, at least for me, and I. I'm sure this is also true for you, where, like, it's both a blessing and a curse to research something that is always relevant, like, politically and culturally.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (3:13)

Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Claire Aubin (3:14)

Sometimes I'm like, I wish I had studied something that other people don't care as much about so that I could just, like, hang out with my books and read this and think about it. Or just something that's not. Not that they don't care about as much. I don't think that's the right phrasing for that. But that is not in the headlines all the time. Or is not like, I want some peace.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (3:31)

Yeah. I joked on social media that my next book is going to be on the history of unicorns and lollipops. I think it's nice. Like, you know, when you study violence, you're constantly writing about things that are very hard and very harmful. You want a book that's just gonna be like, candy, you know, or just make you feel good, and they lived happily ever after. And the moral of the story is, winners always win. You know, whatever. I don't know. Like, I wanted something that would be a little bit more encouraging.

Dr. Claire Aubin (4:00)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (4:00)

But history is rough. It's not too many happy endings.

Dr. Claire Aubin (4:05)

Yeah. I mean, when I was in. Obviously, this show is not a good example of, like, positive history, but when I was in my PhD, I was part of this group or, like, helped found this group for people who work on, like, difficult and challenging and, like, traumatic histories. Because there was this moment where one of my very good friends and I had, like, met up after this big cohort meeting of all the PhD students, and everyone was talking about what they studied, and I was like, so I study the Holocaust. And she was like, I study child homicide. And we had this moment of being like, okay, other people are. Are not having the experience that we're having of doing this.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (4:50)

Yes, yes. And when I study slavery, it's like, it's the same thing. It's just. It's very. You know, I find that, like, doing that kind of research, I tell even my students, like, you got to give yourself mental care. You got to.

Dr. Claire Aubin (5:02)

Oh, yes.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (5:03)

Do not be in the archive reading testimony after testimony of just really sad, violent, tragic, horrific history. I don't think it's. I think it, erodes. The psyche after a while. Like, I find ways that I have to either walk away or take a breather or. Honestly, one of the ways that I find that I can bet a lot is that I'm always searching for, like, resistance. And so that makes me feel encouraged when I found someone who's like, no, this is someone who bought back or, you know, stood up to power, or, like, those are the stories that I often search for so that I have, if not hope, some sort of hero, at least to make me feel better about it.

Dr. Claire Aubin (5:42)

Yeah, certainly it is interesting. Like, for people, like, listening to this, you might be hearing it and thinking, okay, well, that's, you know, whatever they're working to archive. Sure. But as a historian, you are so immersed in the world of what you're researching, a lot of the time, you're so. You're thinking day and night about it. Sometimes it's really hard to switch off because you're always trying to make these connections, particularly when you're working on a project where you're writing a book or something like that. And it's. It's always in the back of your mind. At least for me, I would be reading, like, memoirs, listening to oral histories.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (6:12)

These.

Dr. Claire Aubin (6:13)

All these really intense personal stories about really intense violence. And so it is. I feel like this show has actually been this interesting, cathartic experience for me where I'm kind of like, okay, I feel really frustrated about some of these historical actors that I look at. I can't do anything about that professionally in terms of the way I write and think about them and put that out into the world through the lens of me being a professional academic. But what it can do is make a silly podcast where everyone gets to exercise their own demons in terms of this.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (6:43)

Yes. And frustrations. Yes. I love it. I love it. It's so needed. It's so needed. Because we often don't get to vent, at least professionally. It's almost, like, frowned upon. You know what I mean? Have a real. Like, this guy was a jerk.

Dr. Claire Aubin (6:56)

This person was trash. Totally.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (6:59)

To be able. I mean, we can't always write that, but we certainly can show it with the things that we do. Like, I'm gonna let this speak for itself. You know, like, he murdered 5,000 people. I'm gonna leave that right there, you know?

Dr. Claire Aubin (7:12)

Yeah, absolutely. And, like, my thought process on this is. And I've said this before on the show, but is, like, these are conversations that we're having with our friends and colleagues. Right. Like, I'll say, I hate this. Guy and I have to write about him. And he's so awful. And he did all these horrible things. Whatever. Like, this is a conversation we're having between friends around, like at a conference or whatever. And I just thought it would be fun to visible, or in this case, audible to other people, to kind of hear that we are. Even when we're presenting things with a critical lens and without as much obvious bias. But I don't know if bias is the right word here. Without that in our writing or in our speaking, lecturing, et cetera, that it still exists. And we are still people who think so. We're still human beings.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (7:54)

We're still judging. You know what I mean? We're still.

Dr. Claire Aubin (7:57)

Absolutely.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (7:58)

We are still making judgment calls about these people or about, you know, certain circumstances. So. Absolutely. And then, of course, who doesn't love good gossip? You know, I always love it when someone's like, oh, oh, you thought he was great. You know, he cheated on his wife, you know, he peed his kids. You're like, wait, what?

Dr. Claire Aubin (8:14)

There have been so many moments in the show where I'm thinking, especially of the Percy Granger episode, which, when we're recording this came out two weeks ago, where it was me and Imani Mosley. And we kept having to stop during the recording and being like, what? Like, he did. He wrote that. That is. What do you mean? Like, because it's just. So we need that.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (8:35)

Yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (8:35)

We should probably talk about who we're talking about today and get to the actual show itself. Who are you here to tell me is awful?

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (8:44)

Okay. So I've been thinking about this person unintentionally a lot. And that is D.W. griffith. So last semester I taught a course on understanding American slavery through film. And so we watched about 14 films every single week. And the first film we started with was Birth of a Nation, because the films go chronological. And I wanted students to see, like, how film changed over time, how storytelling changed over time, or remained consistent. Because there's a lot of consistency over 100 year period of filmmaking. And D.W. griffith is always what got my students and his film Birth of a Nation, like, so messed up. Because they were like, I cannot relinquish the ideas that are coming out of this film, like, have so much resonance for today and so much of the Lost Cause. I think, in general, whether you're looking at it through film or through Confederate statues or, you know, historical writings is still very much with us. We're like, in the Lost Cause 2.0 right now. Like, it's really jarring for them, I think, because a lot of these ideas or films or books that they've read are starting to make sense in their adulthood in ways that probably didn't really resonate as children. So I told them in full disclosure, like, my favorite film as a kid was Gone with the Wind.

Dr. Claire Aubin (10:06)

Whoa.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (10:07)

I know. I watched it every Christmas, like, and. But it wasn't until I went to college and I was an adult that I was like, yo, this film is really effed up on so many different levels. And so, I don't know, I just went down this deep dive with DW Griffith, with who he is, with his sort of his artistry, how he chose to tell these stories, what his intentions were behind telling these stories, and not just how he made film, but how he, like, politically navigated his life in order to ensure that he had power and autonomy over narratives. That, to me, was just sort of like, wow, someone who's doing this in 1915. It's just incredible.

Dr. Claire Aubin (10:52)

It's funny that you said the. You mentioned the Gone with the Wind thing, because I have. Not the same story, but a similar one, which is that growing up, we used to watch a lot of, like, Christmas movies in my house, like, holiday movies. And my mom is a huge fan, and as a result, I am a huge fan of, like, old noir films and films from the 50s and 60s and 40s.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (11:14)

Like it's a Wonderful Life.

Dr. Claire Aubin (11:15)

Yeah, that kind of stuff. And we used to watch on TV because it was on TV every year. Holiday Inn. I did not know until recently Holiday Inn. It features Bing Crosby, also a terrible person. So let's be clear about that. Shockingly bad person. But we used to watch Holiday Inn on tv. And I didn't know this until my adulthood because I, like, rented it or, like, got it on prime or something. There's a blackface scene in it that they cut out in the. In the TV version. Bing Crosby and blackface.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (11:47)

And I remember.

Dr. Claire Aubin (11:49)

Yeah. And I saw this maybe, like, five years ago or like, in the last five to 10 years. I watched it, like, via renting on prime or something and was like, what?

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (11:58)

That's crazy. That's crazy.

Dr. Claire Aubin (12:00)

I'm moving, like, what the hell is happening? I had no idea.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (12:04)

And that's why my students are so affected by Birth of a Nation, because when they see blackface, it's not intended to be a comedy. Like, it's. You know, normally when you see blackface on TV or either film, well, it's deeply problematic. It's also meant to offer up Some sort of comedic relief. It's always a punching down kind of moment. But in Birth of a Nation, it's like, it's for real. Like, they're using. They're using blackface in a way that is meant to terrify, in a way that. Where blackness itself is so violent, we actually can't have the real thing. So we're going to put it in blackface because we can't show you a real black person chasing down a white woman. That's too salacious. So we will give it to you in blackface so that it's more cool to see this sort of violence. It's wild, just wild.

Dr. Claire Aubin (12:57)

And we haven't even gotten into, like, Birth of a Nation itself and all these things. But it is interesting that, like, we both have had this sort of experience of being like, oh, I love this movie, or whatever, and then you go back and go, pause. Yeah, hold on.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (13:09)

Wait a minute.

Dr. Claire Aubin (13:10)

Actually, I don't know if I like this anymore.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (13:13)

Yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (13:13)

So, yeah, I just found that interesting. And also, like. So I will say, to speak to what you mentioned earlier, the first time I ever saw Birth of a Nation was junior year of high school. I was in a History of American film class because I went to this high school. I went to an art high school, and they had these, like, really interesting elective courses. And I watched it there and was like, this movie is crazy. Yeah, I. And we talked about it and whatever. And I hadn't watched it in full since then. Like, I'd seen lots of clips of it, like, for my own research, again, because I look at Nazis in America and these things show up. And for this episode, I rewatched Birth of a Nation because the whole. All three hours. Three hours. The song.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (13:56)

Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for you.

Dr. Claire Aubin (13:59)

But I just wanted to make sure that I, like, remembered everything, I thought. And this is a good refresher for me also. Just, I need to make sure I've got all of this in my head. I watched a bootleg version of it on YouTube because I was not about to pay to watch. That's what I tell my students.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (14:12)

YouTube.

Dr. Claire Aubin (14:13)

Yeah, absolutely not. I wanted to remember how awful it was, refresh my memory on the finer points of the plot, which, as it turns out, not that many points in the plot. Pretty. Pretty blunt.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (14:22)

Yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (14:23)

Yes, I would say. But yeah, so it was interesting to sort of revisit this with having experienced it younger and then seeing it now and being like, it's worse than I even knew, because at the time, I wasn't an Americanist, right. Like, I didn't even know a lot of these broader narratives that are happening here. And now you can look at it and be like, what in the world? Oh, my God.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (14:45)

I mean, I think that's why my students are so upset by it. One, it's three hours. It's a silent film. So, I mean, like, they have a hard enough time watching films with subtitles, let alone, you know, like, hey, oh, no. No speaking. No, it's just, you know, sort of the. The music is really all that. You have to sort of narrate these scenes or emotions or. Or sort of like suspense. But again, I always have to, like, take them back to, like, okay, it's 1915. Like, these are completely different times. These are moments in which people watch their first film, see a train coming at them and run out the theater. You know, the idea that film doesn't feel fake or cheesy or, oh, my gosh, you can totally see the string or whatever it is, you know, like, that is not how people are processing these films when they're watching in 1915. It feels like a documentary. It feels like D.W. griffith even says that, like, film for him is like writing history with lightning. And granted, this is not a documentary, but, like, for him, he is telling the story of history through film, and he can think of no more powerful medium. It is lightning that people get it, and they are struck by what they are seeing on screen. And he's not wrong about that. You know, I know 100 years from now, somebody will watch Avatar or they'll watch Titanic or a Marvel movie, and they're like, this is whack. This is like, this is corny, or this is so cringe, you know, like. Or whatever slang word they'll be using 100 years from now. And like, how could people have been entertained by this? How could have this made a billion dollars? The box office? And you're like, no, you don't understand. Like, you know, when Jaws came out, that mov us everything. You know, now we watch Jaws and we're like, this is not that scary. Yeah, or Jurassic park or something like that that, you know, has that kind of, at the time, cutting edge cinematography. You know, what D.W. griffith was doing was cutting edge. He was a pioneer in the film of history. And I usually never try to do that thing where people, like, let's just separate the gift from the giver, or, like, let's separate the art from the artist. I don't. I think that Makes a lot of sense. But I will say that, like, if you are looking at how D.W. griffith is using film, what makes his storytelling so problematic is what makes his filmmaking so powerful. Because he's able to use all of these different techniques that have not been used in film before that create intensity and suspense. And it's really just. It's quite remarkable. So if I look at the film now, no, it's whack lame. But if you look at the film when it was being made and what technology they had available, it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Dr. Claire Aubin (17:46)

Yeah. And I will say also what's worth thinking about here is that D.W. griffith also does not want you to separate art from the artist in a lot of these cases. Right. Like he makes a follow up film and we need to talk about him in just a second. But he also makes a follow up film to this, which we will be talking about.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (18:01)

Oh, intolerance.

Dr. Claire Aubin (18:01)

Intolerance. Which is him saying, you guys are being too mean to me.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (18:07)

You're being intolerant. I'm not the racist. You're racist.

Dr. Claire Aubin (18:10)

Yeah. So I mean, he also is saying we shouldn't be separating these things too. So I will say we're actually not doing a disservice to his legacy here because they're all tied up together in one another. Hi, it's Claire. Thank you for listening to the show. You're currently hearing the free version of this Guy sucked, so I'm here to tell you about our Patreon. In order to make the show sustainably and independently, episodes switch off between free weeks and Patreon weeks. So if you're a fan of good, accurate public history made by actual experts, consider supporting us and joining our honorary haters club. It's only one tier, which means everyone who subscribes gets access to the same perks across the board. For the price of a pastry at your local hip coffee shop, you'll get to listen to a new episode every week instead of just the bi weekly free ones. And they'll all be ad free for you. You'll also get access to the full episode archive, bonus content, early access to merch, and lots of other fun Patreon exclusives to sweeten the deal, just head over to patreon.com thisguysucked or follow the link in the episode description to sign up. But good segue into legacy in general. So part of DW Griffith's life, or that listeners have to understand, is that he's born in 1875 in Kentucky, but He's a filmmaker and, like, kind of active in the film world between 1908 and 1931. But he's born into a family that's very deeply steeped in the legacy of the defeated Confederacy. His father, Jacob Griffith, was a colonel in the Confederate army and a Kentucky state legislator. But he died when David was 10. David? D.W. griffith. Griffith. David Wark Griffith. He died when D.W. griffith was 10, leaving the family relatively impoverished. Because he's growing up somewhat in impoverished in rural Kentucky, Griffith is surrounded by stories that romanticize the antebellum south and the Lost Cause narrative, which could be its whole own show. And we don't have that much time to explain Lost Cause to people, but everyone at home get to Googling on this one because it is important to understand in order to understand America it is today.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (20:26)

Oh, my gosh. Yes, yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (20:28)

Lost Cause ideologies are, as Kelly said, totally prevalent even now and have Especially. Even, I would say, especially now at.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (20:37)

The moment, and oftentimes. It's interesting telling some of his backstory because, like, I think that a lot of times we think that the Lost Cause comes out of a narrative of racism and white supremacy, and it does. But also, the people who are most invested in the Lost Cause are not necessarily obsessed with the race as much as they are class. And so I think because of the fact that D.W. griffith had a father with status. He was this, you know, Confederate officer. He was a state senator. He had, you know, privilege. And then when his dad dies, he's about 10 years old when his dad dies, he never gets the full benefits of all that white privilege was supposed to offer him. And so it's almost like he falls from, you know, this economic platform of support to now he's impoverished. They have to move to Louisville, Kentucky. His mother is opening up boarding houses. He gets these jobs here or there, but he knows it gets a lot of success. He sounds like a lot of what we would call disgruntled or displaced people that have lost out on opportunities economically. Their towns have dried up. The factory town is no longer there. And who are you going to blame for your problems? Who is sort of at the root of all of this? It's that black guy that's taking your job or that other person that's taking your job. And, you know, he's born right at the tail end of Reconstruction. And so the stories that he's getting from his parents or uncles or, you know, family members, the story that's being circulated all around him is that we Are the victims that white Southerners are the victims. White Southerners have paid the greatest price, that we are not where we're supposed to be. And you see a lot of that even in his storytelling.

Dr. Claire Aubin (22:27)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's very, very blatant in Birth of a Nation, particularly the latter half of the film, where it really frames Reconstruction as the experience of political and economic disenfranchisement of white people in the south, and especially by black people. And Northerners are the people who are creating this. This new disenfranchisement. And so you can see that that starts very early on in his childhood, that this. It becomes a narrative that he believes and is willing to sort of to spread. He has very little formal education, so he spends a lot of his youth kind of developing a love of literature and Shakespeare on his own, which leads him towards the dramatic arts. And an important thing to understand about him is that he starts out as an actor rather than a director. And I think sometime you can kind of see that sensibility in the films that people produce when you see the way that they are influencing actors to behave in their films, which is a big, big part of why Birth of a Nation is so successful when it comes out. So he starts off in his early 20s. He's into acting, playwriting, touring with theater companies. He sees himself primarily as a stage actor. Starts a Cinema career in 1907 with very small acting roles and then begins directing for the American mutoscope and biograph company in 1908. This is wild. When I was looking this up. Between 1908 and 1913, he directs over 450 short films.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (23:55)

Imagine.

Dr. Claire Aubin (23:56)

Imagine having that research output. Can I just say, I was gonna.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (24:01)

Write a book a day.

Dr. Claire Aubin (24:02)

Basically. It's bananas. But when he's doing that, he also helps to develop and refine cinematic techniques that we still use today. Which is why it's very important to understand him as an incredibly powerful figure within film history.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (24:16)

Oh, yeah. And he's perfecting his craft. Absolutely. Like, a lot of film scholars credit him with parallel editing this idea that, like, if you watch Birth of a Nation, not just Birth of a Nation, any film where they show, like, a person, and then, like, they show the monster, and let's say the monster is chasing the person, and they cut from the person to the monster, the person to the monster, and you get this accelerated view of, like, they're being chased, and at any minute they're going to get pounced and, like, that kind of suspense. When you're the audience, you're not necessarily looking back and forth like a tennis match, but you are looking at how the conflict is reaching a crescendo on the screen during a time when again, there's not a whole. There's no cgi, there's no know anything like that. That to me is one of. I think the strengths of the film is that you are getting to see how the clan comes to the rescue and. And when they do, how it feels so climatic, how you're seeing like when it's floor and she like falls off the mountain and just like, you know, her being chased by Gus and all of these different things. Like. Yeah, there's so many scenes in the film that cinematically you get these big scopes, the battle scenes, you know, like the scenes in which they're in the forest and you can like the forest feels huge and massive in ways that I don't think people understood or appreciated what Griffith is trying to get you to see or feel in that moment. It's pretty powerful. It's pretty powerful.

Dr. Claire Aubin (25:49)

Yeah. So he does this parallel editing thing is a big part of it, also known as cross cutting for people who make films, which is, yeah, like you've said, two scenes happening simultaneously and you cut between them. But he also is very interested in close ups and medium shots, which are not popular before then. So he brings actors, emotions into the foreground, which is why things like Birth of a Nation are very effective. And for people listening, we will talk about the plot of Birth of a Nation. Yes, he does a lot of iris shots and fade outs. So like scene transitions, naturalistic acting to sort of like move away from what was previously in silent film. Like very hyper theatrical experience, exaggeration. All of these things contribute to him ultimately deciding in 1913 that he's gonna create the David W. Griffith Corp. He says, I'm done with experimentation on short films. It's time for me to make a feature length narrative film. And he says, should we make it longer than one of the Lord of the Rings movies? Should we go three hours long for our first feature length narrative film?

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (26:51)

Sure, why not? Go for it.

Dr. Claire Aubin (26:52)

And so in 1915, he releases Birth of a Nation. I think this is a good moment because we need to get into Birth of a Nation plot. But this is the perfect moment for me to ask you, why does he suck? What's wrong with D.W. griffith?

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (27:07)

D.W. griffith sucks because he legitimizes not only the Lost Cause mythology, but he makes the Ku Klux Klan heroes. He actually revived the KKK to where they had been sort of politically dormant, and that by the release of their film, over 15,000 Klansmen are marching down Peachtree street in Georgia, Fulton county, and Georgia gets their charter for the KKK as a result of this film. He has really given people, like, an ability to feel not just okay, but, like, prideful about their racism in a way that feels like, no, no, no. Racism is not wrong or immoral. Racism is divine. That God has actually endowed us to be these heroes to right the wrongs of white people. And this is the film that is going to tell that story. You remember the Civil War? Remember how we were all, you know, sort of, like, cut off and cut down and losers and how these black people, they came in, they were just slaves, and they come in and they are, you know, taking over the legislature and, you know, they're all corrupt. And he is manifesting somatically how people feel. He's taking everyone's anxiety and he's heightening and saying, I believe you. I believe. And let me tell you why this is true. Let me show you why this is true. This film, not only does it have, like, what people thought at the time was a ridiculous budget for a film. I think it's about a hundred $thousand dollars, maybe $110,000 is the budget for this film, which is nothing in today's, you know, filmmaking budget. But back then, I mean, people would have thought there's no way it would have been the equivalent of, like, a million dollars. Who's gonna spend a million dollars making a film? But the film goes on to make, some scholars say, on the low end, $20 million. On the high end, $100 million. So can you imagine $100,000, people, that. You're crazy. You're taking out loans left and right. You're telling Dixon, who wrote the book, Thomas Dixon wrote the book the Klansman, which is based off of the film, is based off of his book. And he buys the rights from him, and he can't really afford to buy the rights. He's like, you know what? I'll give you a cut of the ticket sales. If this film does well, then, you know, you'll. You'll make some money, too. Which it sounds like a huge gamble because nobody knew how big this to be. But the film is considered the first blockbuster film of its time. It takes off. He sucks. Because I think that people who particularly suck are not just people who are, like, bumbling idiots and, like, stupid villains.

Dr. Claire Aubin (29:56)

Sure.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (29:56)

They're actually really methodical, calculating people that can commit all crimes of harm or violence by making it feel like it's okay and not like it's okay, like it's entertaining, like it's laudable. That, to me, is the most dangerous thing ever. And film is such a powerful tool. You know, I tell my students all the time that, like, the five most powerful words in all of film is based on a true story. When you watch a film and at the start of the film it says based on a true story, you're like, oh, snap, we about to watch how it really happened. Yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (30:32)

They can commit all manner of sins in that because you don't know whether it's 1% is based on a true story or 99%. And people tend towards the latter when it's usually more like the former.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (30:45)

And you're like, well, this is a book. I'm about to watch a book.

Dr. Claire Aubin (30:48)

Yeah. A historian sat down and wrote this script. False. I wish. I wish that was an option for.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (30:56)

Us historians in Hollywood. Rarely. Rarely are bedfellows. Rarely. Yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (31:03)

I mean, one of the things that I think is interesting in this concept of separating the art from the artist. Right. Like, people will say that. And obviously based on this show and anyone listening, I am not really a proponent of that. But, yes, he is a pioneer cinematically. Absolutely. It's a pioneering use of cinema to spread bigotry. Like, sure. He's. This movie is incredible. Cinema is. Represents all these incredible cinematics, advancements in order to do this overtly horrific thing.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (31:35)

Yeah. I mean, same thing was said in the Holocaust. You know, they use films as propaganda to create more anti. Semitism to get. To get people galvanized around this idea in the same way that people look at, you know, like Superman as this American patriot hero and makes you have all these good warm fuzzies or Captain Marvel or something like that. There's all of the ways in which we can use film as a tool to do a lot of good things or to do a lot of bad things. I tell my students all the time, film itself is like a hammer. You know, it's. You can take a hammer and build a house. You can take a hammer and destroy a house. You can take a hammer and just renovate or tweak the house. But at the end of the day, the tool itself is not harmful. It's how you use that tool. And what makes Griffith suck is how he uses tools.

Dr. Claire Aubin (32:22)

Is how he uses the tool.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (32:23)

Yeah, it's how he uses the tool.

Dr. Claire Aubin (32:25)

Yeah. And I think it's interesting that you brought up Holocaust propaganda because it's also very common that people think of propaganda films as like the government makes this documentary and it's just propaganda. But there are also several instances of things like Birth of a Nation or the example that I use because I also recently taught a film class. I taught a Holocaust history in film class. I always use the example of Yudsus, which is a propaganda film that's similar to this where it's presented as this historical fiction where it's sort of like this is this of the medieval period and Jews in the medieval period taking advantage of good Aryan German women. It's this whole thing. But at the time people like believed it in this sort of based on a true story kind of way where they sort of were like, well the movie is fake, but the ideas it represents might have something to them which is what happens with Birth of a Nation. I want to talk about this, the plot of Birth of a Nation for people who haven't watched it haven't sat down to watch three hours of a silent film. So it's the first non serial, so not broken up into separate stories. The first non serial 12 reel film made in the US ever. So this is very important to understanding why now every avatar movie is 4 hours long or whatever. This. You can blame this guy for that. Yeah. So it's based like you said, on the 1905 novel and play The Klansman by Thomas Dixon Jr. It does a lot of stuff, A lot of stuff happens in it, but it partially tells the story of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. But it also mostly tells the story of two white families, the pro Union Stonemans and the pro Confederate Camerons, before, during and after the American Civil War. And it's split into two parts, the Civil War and Reconstruction. It is wild. Like trying to explain the plot of Birth of a Nation is bananas because so many things happen so layers, silly, so quickly over the space of three hours. Including God appearing.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (34:26)

Yeah. At the end Jesus comes back to the earth.

Dr. Claire Aubin (34:30)

Like a hologram of God appears. It's wild.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (34:33)

My students were like, who is that? I'm like, Jesus. And they're like, what?

Dr. Claire Aubin (34:36)

Oh, you don't know Jesus? It's. I mean I. And I think the Civil War part is bad enough and it's. That is sort of the emotional core of the first part of the movie where it's sort of, it's setting up the feelings that are going to be created later where like these people don't want, want to go to war and they spend all this time preparing for it and it's Horrible. And a bunch of them die. And it's like I said, I just watched this, so it's fresh in my story. But Reconstruction is where it gets really, really scary, I would say. And where it does, I mean, to me, where a lot of the, like, serious long term damage appears in the narratives of Reconstruction, which is also, historically speaking, where damage appears in terms of American historiography is histories of Reconstruction until recently, like until the latter half of the 20th century. The 80s, yeah, like I would say.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (35:31)

Like the 80s with Eric Foner's Reconstruction.

Dr. Claire Aubin (35:33)

Yeah, up until then. Like they're terrible. And there's a very specific ideological narrative that comes out of Reconstructionist histories or Reconstruction histories that is also existing in Birth of a Nation.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (35:47)

Yes, this is the one film in which the field of history is actually sort of of tethering itself to this film. People like historian William Dunning, who was known as like, the father of Reconstruction and telling this history, put forth these ideas that Reconstruction was a failure, that it was corrupt, that black people were not ready for freedom, that they were not worthy of freedom, that slavery was actually a good thing, it was a civilizing institution. And all he talked about was how terrible Reconstruction was, when actually Reconstruction was quite revolutionary. I mean, as a result of Reconstruction, you get the first universal public schools, you get the first public health departments. You get the 13th Amendment, which abolishes slavery, the 14th Amendment, which gives black people citizenship and equal protection under the law. You get the 15th Amendment, where black men get the right to vote. You get the first Civil Rights act of 1875. There are all these major political revolutions that are taking place in which you literally could have an enslaved person become an elected official. Like that doesn't happen anywhere else outside of maybe Haiti. That doesn't happen anywhere else in the world where you have enslaved people occupying positions like U.S. senator, like U.S. congressman, like, you know, town councilor, commissioner, or, you know, all of the local power, the state power, the federal power. Black people for the first time are able to have influence and they make their lives better for many in a very short amount of time. But it's warp speed, what they're able to accomplish. And that I think was even more terrifying to white people. Du Bois, W.E.B. du Bois, the scholar, historian, sociologist, he has this great quote where he says that what was more terrifying to whites than Negro, like, inferiority was Negro superiority. It was like the idea that if black people came out of slavery and they were lazy and they were drunkards, then that would have proved white supremacy and everyone could have been like, see, told you they were a balance. But the fact that they come out and they're like, oh, we're going to build schools. Oh, we're going to run for office, or we're going to do all these things, and people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And the fact that they were doing it not just for their children, but also for poor white children, that was. Was more than people could handle. And it really disrupts the myth of white supremacy. Well, you're not so great if this person can come out of slavery and, you know, create this whole town or create all these laws or create public schools or, you know, all of those things. So, yeah, that was. What was so terrifying was the fact that black people were actually capable, were actually worthy. And it ran up against everything that D.W. griffith believed in. And so he had to almost tell the story in this way.

Dr. Claire Aubin (38:39)

It is interesting that the way that we have talked about Reconstruction, or when I say we, the way that historians talked about Reconstruction prior to people like. Like Eric Foner, there's a level of grace that is very obviously not afforded to black people, and particularly formerly enslaved black people, in the sense that like. Like, even if these obviously false narratives had been true. Right. Like, even if they had been violent and done all these things after slavery, even if that had been the case, to me, that would have been a fairly reasonable reaction to the experience, you know?

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (39:19)

Yes. Yeah. And the fact that they're not retaliatory, the fact that they're not vengeful, the fact that they're like, you know what? I just want land. I want my children educated. I want literacy. I want to be able to vote. I want to be able to stay in my, you know, political, social, and economic livelihood. Like, what they were asking for was not. Was not even reparations. Do you know what I mean? Which some people do ask for reparations, but that's not as true.

Dr. Claire Aubin (39:46)

But.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (39:48)

But it is kind of mind boggling the fact that that is how people responded to black liberation, that black liberation was a horror story, that the monster is a free, black empowered man or woman. That's the boogeyman. And that is the myth that Griffith shows you over and over again. You know, who should be terrified of these black men that want to marry your daughters? Absolutely. They don't want to marry your daughters. They just want to rape your daughters. And what. And the irony is that, like, no, that's what white men did to black women. White men systematically raped black women with impunity. And that is A story that, of course, is never told. But the ideas that are put forth are black men are hypersexual. And this is why the scene in which Laura is a daughter of the Cameron family and she is resisting running away from Gus, who is a white actor in blackface, who is trying to pursue her as his love. Interesting. And really sexually assault her. That's the innuendo. That's the underlying sort of idea.

Dr. Claire Aubin (40:57)

It's very clearly implied that that's what he is going to do.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (41:00)

It's very clearly implied that he is a predator and that he is trying to get this innocent damsel in distress. And it plays into so many ideas that white people wanted to believe about black sexuality. That was just not true, that when the film is over, one white man leaves the theater, sees a black man and shoots him instantly. Shoots and kills him instantly. And felt justified in that because the film was that palpable for him that he felt like, I need to go and do justice, enact some sort of vigilante justice. You know, one less black man. I'm doing my part. Like, that is how dangerous this film was. It didn't just get people to think that black people were dumb. It got people to think that black people were so dangerous, so harmful that so unworthy of political enfranchisement that we better do something about it.

Dr. Claire Aubin (41:59)

And that scene is incredibly pivotal to the film. So I want to just talk about it for one second. So in these families that are at the center of the film, one of the families has, like, several, like, young, virginal, innocent white women in it. And in this scene, one woman is, like, doing her washing or doing something out with a basket, and she has to run away because a, again, white man in blackface is chasing her. And she throws herself off a cliff to avoid being captured and presumably assaulted by him. It was so interesting to me looking at that also, because then later, the solution to this is to form the KKK and lynch him. Like that is. The direct result is that the KKK is formed as a result of this horrific attempted crime. KKK is formed as a result of that, and they lynch him. And so, like, that is presented as.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (42:50)

The solution and bring his body to the Cameron family. Yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (42:54)

And that is presented as the solution for the danger, like, presented by black men. So, like, there's a very. You can draw a very clear line between that and people leaving the theater and saying, we should be shooting black men that we see on the street, because this is the danger that they present to us, to our to the women, et cetera. But the use of a white man in blackface for that scene I found particularly meaningful or important. Because these white actors in blackface, as you mentioned earlier, are particularly in important or very key roles. They mostly are the ones that have speaking roles. Speaking as in, like, are presented as talking. And then they'll put, like, words in a little, like, frame after them. But because that man is a white man in blackface doing this thing that then spurs all this other stuff, it really illustrates how much of the film itself. And D.W. griffith as the person who creates. And even though he doesn't come up with all the plot because of. He buys it from the. From Dixon, the person who is creating this world.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (43:56)

Yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (43:57)

It illustrates how much of it is just a racist fantasy. Like where black men in particular are cast as dangerous brutes and the people who are playing them are white men. Are the white men who are also imagining this reality?

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (44:10)

Yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (44:10)

So they are simultaneously creating and bringing to life a very monstrous view of black people. While then, even though they're the people creating and imagining and bringing this to the world, they're then blaming those same people for the fantasy that they have created about them.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (44:28)

And the fantasy is no longer a fantasy. The fantasy becomes reality. In 1915, this was not salacious. This was not like, oh, that's far fetched. It was like, this is confirmation for how I feel. This is documentary, you know, like it is for people who are watching it. And I think what it does, at least in terms of Hollywood, is that in Hollywood, there are always these tropes. You know, whether it's the damsel in distress, there's always a woman always falling and running and falling.

Dr. Claire Aubin (45:04)

These women can't just run. They gotta trip like three times.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (45:08)

Oh, my gosh. Like, even to this day, you will still always find some sort of woman who needs help. Some sort of woman who is in need of a man to rescue her, to save her. So damsel in distress is, like, done. That joke is done. You also have, like, again, the hypersexual male. That trope done. You have the loyal enslaved people or servants of the household who are also in blackface. And there's this line that after Flora dies, it shows the Cameron's house servants, and it says, and none grieved more than these. And it shows you these black people who are more invested in the lives of their owners or their employers than they are themselves. And that idea of, like the loyal black friend, servant, sidekick, whatever. We see those tropes play out again and again and again. And the clan is the hero is also a trope where maybe you might not see Klansmen in their full regalia, but the idea of the white man as the hero, as the savior, as the epitome of, like, all that is good and great in this world. We see that over and over and over and over again in every single film. In rom coms, in adventure films. He's always the smartest person in the room. He's always the one who knows who did it. You know what I mean? Like, I can't think of a film in which there is not this sort of dynamic where either one of these tropes are circulating around.

Dr. Claire Aubin (46:47)

Yeah, absolutely. And, like, it's important to understand that these tropes do create real world effects, right? Like, you have talked about this in terms of someone goes out and shoot them. And you mentioned that there's this resurgence of the clan, but it's very important to, like, like, really highlight how directly DW Griffith and his relationship to this film creates this resurgence. So right after it premieres, there are protests from the naacp, other civil rights organizations, because they see it as obviously incredibly demeaning. But the KKK begin using it as a recruiting tool for new members. Like, it's. It's not like people see it and say, I'm gonna go out and just join the clan. The Klan says, great, this is what we needed.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (47:33)

Like, uncle Sam wants you. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (47:35)

It's very like, this is what we needed for revitalization of an organization that has waned and experiences this enormous explosion, like you said. And it's not like, oh, this happens at a time where that was coming. No, this precipitates that.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (47:50)

Yes, yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (47:51)

This thing happens, and then that happens.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (47:53)

Happens. And then the clan takes off to the point where this film is 1919. By the time you get to the 1920s, you have 6 million members in the clan that are on the books. By 1926, they're like, that's the peak. Then the Great Depression hits and people don't have time to afford membership or whatever. But, like, by 1926, just 10 years later, 6 million members. And not just. Just white men. Their wives, you know, they have the Wives Auxiliary Club. Like, people. This is a fraternity in which people experience, like, barbecues and brotherhood. And it is not for just Bubba in backwoods Louisiana. This is the senator, the statesman, the police officer, the judge. I mean. And this is why Griffith is also so sucky, is that he suspects that the film will get backlash. He screens this Film for the White House in front of President Woodrow Wilson. He puts Woodrow Wilson quoted in the film, like, cause Thomas Dixon was a classmate of Woodrow Wilson at Johns Hopkins. And so there's, you know, these networks of who's who, who knows who. He screens it before the Supreme Court so that if there are any lawsuits, he already has the Supreme Court in his back pocket. Because they love the film. Members of the, you know, president's cabinet and their family members watch this film and they all praise it, they all love it. I can't think of a single film, past, present, where it's been a screened at the White House or before the Supreme Court. And people are like, oh my God, this is required viewing. Like, I can't think of a film that does that kind of work. We don't think of like, even how many directors think of showing their films to a president, you know what I mean? Let alone the Supreme Court. Like. But that kind of buy in is what gives it its, I feel like, longevity.

Dr. Claire Aubin (49:51)

Yeah, absolutely. It does something very important here, which is also deeply undermines the black political participation that you talked about earlier. And so having people like major politicians involved in the promotion and excitement around the film further underscores this desire or further, I would say actually even like undermines this increased political participation by black people. That it's saying, this is bad, it's dangerous. Like, even in the film itself, there's a scene during the reconstruction portion where it shows like all these black people and white people on blackface stuffing ballot boxes. Like, that's a big part of it is that they. That sure, they get into power because it also shows this all black legislature at one point, but being like, they get into power, but they do it through these sneaky, underhanded means. They do it illegally and all this other stuff. Stuff. And again, people watching this are like, yeah, okay, well, that's evidence of this conspiracy theory I had in my mind before.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (50:52)

You can draw a straight line from the ballot stuffing boxes of Birth of a Nation to conspiracy theories in 2024 about people feeling like the election was stolen, or in 2020 feeling like the election was stolen. You can draw a straight line from the reconstruction scene in which he shows black elected officials they are barefoot with their feet up on the table, cross legged, eating fried chicken or watermelon or whatever and you know, acting all kinds of buffoonery. And there is a picture of. And I show it to my students of Barack Obama when he's in the Oval Office and he has his feet kicked up on the desk sort of cross legged. There is a picture of every president in that position. George Bush does that, Kennedy does that. Linda B. Johnson sits like that. They put their feet up on the desk. Their feet when they finally feel sort of like comfortable in their power. It's an iconic presidential polls in the White House. I haven't seen Trump do that yet, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Dr. Claire Aubin (51:47)

I think he's done much more.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (51:48)

I'm sure I know much. But like drawing that line of seeing Obama in the Oval Office with his feet cross legged over this desk, kicked up and cross legged, and then seeing that image in Birth of a Nation consciously or subconsciously is letting the viewer know. Oh, yeah, see, that's real. Real. See, that's true.

Dr. Claire Aubin (52:10)

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it is. This is, you know, slightly off topic, but it is bananas that this photo of Barack Obama is received with all of this vitriol and people being like, how. Why would you do that?

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (52:23)

Disrespect the office. Yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (52:25)

When you have people. So I mean, I'm not even including Trump here because he's post Obama, but you have people like pre Obama. You have people like lbj, who was in the White House making phone calls using the word bunghole.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (52:36)

Yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (52:36)

Like all like, yes, this guy who.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (52:38)

And he's on the toilet.

Dr. Claire Aubin (52:40)

The toilet, taking meetings. And you're like, oh, Barack Obama has his feet, his stockinged feet on the desk.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (52:48)

What?

Dr. Claire Aubin (52:48)

How Disresp. No, like, but you're so right. There is a very direct through line here that, that you can just draw straight from one to the other. Hello everybody, it's Claire here again with my usual quick shout out to tell you about other multitude shows I think you'll like. If you're enjoying this guy's sucked. This week, I want to tell you about wow, if True. Wow, if True is an Internet culture show that explains how what's happening online shapes the real world and tech culture. Journalist Amanda Silberling and science fiction author slash attorney Isabel Kim are the right Internet experts and real life besties to help us all understand what the hell is going on. I recently recorded an episode of wow, if True about some Internet issues that are near and dear to my own heart. Namely, why being an academic online is so extremely weird. So I can confirm that the show is a very fun to be a guest on and B will take you on some unexpected journeys as a listener. More importantly, they're the only show that will explain both neopets and horizontal mergers in the same episode. So Go check out wow if True wherever on the Internet you find your podcasts. New episode drop every other Wednesday. That's Wow if True. Another show from the Multitude podcast collective.

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Dr. Claire Aubin (54:58)

There are so many other things that are insinuated in the film. Reconstruction fails because again, quote unquote, fails because freed black people are too incompetent to govern. The only that you can only kind of restore order through the violent intervention of groups of real upstanding groups like the Klan. There's also all this mythological language around the Klan. I took some screenshots of some of the stuff that were on the screen. Let me find them. Cause they're just so like, oh, there's some good ones. Some of the text is just so bananas. So for people to set the scene, some of the things they say are things like while helpless whites look on.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (55:34)

Yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (55:34)

And the former enemies of north and south are united again in common defense of their Aryan birthright. On the steps of the lieutenant Governor's house, which is where they drop the body of this guy Gus on the steps of the lieutenant Governor's house. The answer to the blacks and carpetbaggers. Brethren, this is a thing that Ben, the guy who founds the KKK in this, that he says to the new KKK members, brethren, this flag bears the red stain of the life of a Southern woman. A priceless sacrifice on the altar of an outraged civilization. Like the language being used here is this mythologizing, incredibly racist language. And it's still so early in cinematic history that we people are not being trained the way that now we are, I think a little bit more trained to look at stuff like this with a critical eye and say yes, hold on.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (56:32)

Yes. Well, I mean the NAACP is doing that work on deaf ears, you know, I mean.

Dr. Claire Aubin (56:37)

Yes, yes.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (56:38)

And to give the NAACP some credit, they do get some scenes removed. There are a scene, I think, in which Abraham Lincoln is trying to send free black people to Africa. They get that cut. They get like some other scenes, scenes that are cut from the film that are really, really problematic. They do get the film banned in a couple of towns, but you know, it's, it's sort of the proprietor's choice whether or not they're going to choose to show the film or not. Yeah, but because it's such a money maker, it's hard to get people to not want to show the film. And so they have an uphill battle when it comes to protesting the film. And the more a film is sort of seen at either great or controversial, the more people are gonna want to see it. And so it doesn't, it doesn't help to curve viewership. But it was really tough to get people to see this film as problematic. And the funny thing about Griffith though is that like, you know, he makes this film and really he could have stopped. He didn't really have to make. He does make films after this. They don't have, have. They have nowhere near the level of success and fame that Birth of a Nation has. But that is sort of like his legacy. I mean like I can't think of too many other filmmakers that have. Short of James Cameron maybe or Steven Spielberg I guess. But Steven Spielberg makes a lot of blockbusters, not just one. So yeah, he's kind of a one hit wonder. Intolerance does well after this, but after that the damage is done. So he could have made other films and does, but it doesn't really matter. It's sort of inconsequential in terms of where he goes after that.

Dr. Claire Aubin (58:23)

Yeah, he has his masterpiece right at the front of the career and that's kind of what people know him for now. And I think rightfully so. I think what's interesting, and I'm glad that you mentioned Intolerance because I want to talk about that, you know, before we and the show. So like you mentioned, Birth of a Nation becomes the highest grossing film of all time at the. Up to that point.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (58:44)

Not.

Dr. Claire Aubin (58:44)

Not now and.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (58:45)

But kept it for a while. Definitely.

Dr. Claire Aubin (58:47)

Yeah, absolutely. He toured with the film. Sometimes he would like personally introduce it or conduct the orchestra with it. Wild. But in places like Boston, Chicago, New York, there are these big demonstrations, sometimes violent clashes which of course, also underscore what he's saying in the film and saying, all these black people are so violent that there are violent clashes happening around my film. There's strong editorial criticism in black newspapers and some white progressive papers, but instead of seeing and hearing this and being like, oh, I might have done something wrong, Griffith is very deeply, personally offended and shocked by any negative backlash. He had seen himself as an artist and a storyteller, not a political propagandist. Kind of is like, well, anything you interpret in my film is your interpretation. Yeah, mine. Whatever.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (59:36)

Whatever.

Dr. Claire Aubin (59:37)

Yeah. And he genuinely does not seem to grasp or at least refuses to admit that the film has caused any harm to anyone. Yes.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (59:44)

I mean, there are riots. They're little riots. And when we say riots, I mean these riots are one directional. These are white mobs attacking black citizens, black residents, black communities. Yeah. These are not black communities attacking white communities.

Dr. Claire Aubin (59:58)

No. And. But the black communities are still blamed for them.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (60:00)

Yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (60:01)

And he's like, well, these black people who are upset that now they're being shot or having all these. Experiencing all these clashes or riots or essentially, like, these mobs that are coming after them, he's like, well, it's their problem.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (60:14)

Yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (60:15)

Like, because they said something mean about me in the. In. In their newspaper or whatever.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (60:19)

Well, it's not my problem because it's true.

Dr. Claire Aubin (60:21)

Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (60:21)

And so you can't argue with the truth. I didn't lie. Like, I mean, I think that.

Dr. Claire Aubin (60:26)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (60:26)

And it's. It's. It sounds so absurd. I can't believe that black people would not be on board with this film. And it's. And in a like, twist of, like, words and ideolog, he's. It's, again, I'm not a racist. You're a racist. You know, like.

Dr. Claire Aubin (60:40)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (60:40)

He makes Intolerance as a way of, like, doubling down on black people's intolerance for his film.

Dr. Claire Aubin (60:50)

Yeah. He does this sort of like, this is reverse racism, actually.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (60:54)

That's exactly it. Yes. And you're like, wait, you know.

Dr. Claire Aubin (60:57)

Yeah. And he writes all these articles and pamphlets defending Birth of a Nation, saying it's misunderstood. He frames criticism as, this is a classic, an attack on freedom of expression. He says censors refer, reformers are intolerant of artistic truth. So, again, he does not want to separate art from the artist here. And as his follow up to all of this, in 1916, he releases the film. So one year later, he releases the film Intolerance, which is his direct response to criticism of Birth of a Nation. But it is, to be clear, not an apology for it. He's responding to the haters by being like, Like, I'm gonna double down on this.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (61:34)

Yes, yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (61:35)

Which is crazy.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (61:36)

No, it's wild. That. And this film does. I mean, intolerance does really. Well, Intolerance is. It's not the same level of success as Birth of a Nation, but it's still, it's deeply received. He makes it one year. It comes out in 1916. So one year after the film, people are still watching Birth of a Nation, and he's got this next banger out. And it is mind boggling to think that someone can have these ideas and then think, think, you know, and one sort of be appalled that anybody would find it controversial. I mean, I feel like, you know, 100 years from now when we're doing, like, this guy sucked and someone picks.

Dr. Claire Aubin (62:08)

Joe Rogan when we're on episode 5000 of this.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (62:12)

Yeah, yeah. And they're like, you know, Joe Rogan was just asking questions. You know, he was just curious. You know, he just, he just wanted to, like, spot conversation. You know, I feel like that's how D.W. griffith is. Like, I'm just trying to. To make a film. I'm just trying to, you know, tell a story.

Dr. Claire Aubin (62:26)

Like, oh, the just asking questions thing is absolutely what's happening here. Like, it's just, you know, I'm just curious. I was just saying, well, what if. Well, what if this is how the KKK was founded?

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (62:37)

It's just art.

Dr. Claire Aubin (62:37)

You're saying it's possible, but, you know, I, I. It was just my artistic interpretation of it. So you can't be mad at me.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (62:43)

And I can't do anything with how people respond to us. I can't do anything about the new levels of Klan membership. I can't do anything about these riots. But it was like, no, you, you actually could have done something about all of this. You actually worked to ensure that you wouldn't have this by screening it for the Supreme Court in the White House. You were already shoring up protection for yourself. And so, yeah, it is hypocrisy in every aspect of it. But if there's one thing that does give me sort of satisfaction is the. That Griffith doesn't really get much praise or success.

Dr. Claire Aubin (63:21)

No, no.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (63:21)

You know, like, the damage is done, you know, sort of, like, culturally, but personally, professionally. You know, people praised him. They saw him as, like this icon, and he gets an honorary Oscar, I think, in 1936. He gets an Oscar, sure, our Academy Award. But no one Is like giving him more opportunities to make, make more films. Almost all of his films are silent films except I think three films. And so he's kind of a flash in a pan in a little bit, but a flash in a pan that was like, no, this was an incredible flash. Yeah, but yeah, I mean you could say the same thing about like Gone with the Wind, the aftershocks of this. Margaret Mitchell, who writes Gone with the Wind, says that she was inspired by Birth of a Nation and that is why she made, made this film. And I'm just like, oh, shut up.

Dr. Claire Aubin (64:13)

That's wild. Of course, of course.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (64:15)

Crazy. That is crazy. I mean, crazy. And she also was defensive and says that of course Mammy's not racist. We loved Mammy. Mammy's everything, you know, like, what's wrong? You're being too sensitive. Matter of fact, I think you're a communist. You know, that was like her. We ever do another person who sucks, Margaret Mitchell.

Dr. Claire Aubin (64:31)

Come back, we'll talk about Margaret Mitchell. No problem.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (64:34)

Yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (64:34)

Yeah. I mean, it just is. Even things like Intolerance, like, which is still kind of considered like one of the greatest silent films of all time, but it doesn't have. The average person does not have an internal list of greatest silent films of all time, to be clear. So it doesn't have the same long lasting cultural impact that Birth of a Nation does have. And intolerance also doesn't lead to like the resurgence of any, you know, major racist organization or anything. And Intolerance, which is funny if you think about it this way, is very much like it's him. The point of the film of Intolerance, which I think is worth people understanding a little bit. He makes a follow up film because he wants to dramatize the destructive effects of intolerance across history and is like, here are these four time periods, including ancient Babylon, the crucifixion of Christ, the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, and then the what he calls the modern American story. He like says, look, you guys have been intolerant to me, so I'm gonna talk about the intolerance and everything. And again, he is saying all this. He has his ego bruised by this minority of viewers who are watching it of Birth of a Nation and saying this is bad. The vast majority of the white audiences who are watching this are like, hell yeah, I'm gonna join the kkk.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (65:47)

Yeah.

Dr. Claire Aubin (65:48)

And he still is angry that everyone isn't on board with him. So that's awful. He sucks. Like that's, I'm like, that's yeah, totally.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (65:57)

I mean, if he were really about making money, part two would have been like. Like the clan as heroes. And now that's a whole film about the clan living their best lives or whatever.

Dr. Claire Aubin (66:07)

Yeah. Birth of a Nation. Two. Two births, Two nations or whatever.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (66:11)

Oh, my gosh. It would be the reiteration. It would be like that. The sort of like that Marvel superhero character coming back again and again. But he doesn't do that. He actually tries to win more people to his side, which, you know, it does not work in his favor in the end. But, yeah, that is why he sucks.

Dr. Claire Aubin (66:34)

Yeah. And there will be people who listen to this and have seen Birth of a Nation or do know about it. Like, there certainly will. But there will also be a lot of people who are listening to this who have not and don't know this. So for the people at home who are listening and being like, well, this is obvious that he sucks. Okay. But it's still fairly niche.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (66:49)

Yes.

Dr. Claire Aubin (66:50)

A lot of people who aren't familiar with cinema history are not. Or cinematic history are not actually that up on Birth of a Nation. And so it's important that we make sure they know.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (66:59)

No, but a lot of people are up on Gone with the Wind.

Dr. Claire Aubin (67:03)

Sure.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (67:03)

A lot of people are up on any of the tropes that I mentioned before. The damsel in distress, the white man is the hero, the loyal black servant or black sidekick, whatever you want to call it. Like, all of those ideas we have seen reincarnated again and again in different forms and fashion. And you might say, well, that's not Griffith, but. No, that's.

Dr. Claire Aubin (67:27)

It is.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (67:28)

That's Griffith. Like, those are the seeds that have been planted that lead to this fruit that's giving fruit every season. This tree is, like, you know, always on time. And Griffith planted those seeds.

Dr. Claire Aubin (67:40)

Yeah. Even people who will be familiar with things like blackface won't understand that. Like, it's not only this sort of, like, minstrelsy thing where it's only comedic, it's only artistic, whatever, that it also has this very sinister. Yeah, Very sinister use as well. They'll only be familiar with this sort of, like, music playing, dancing person in blackface. They will not realize that this is also used to be like, oh, well, here's a black man who's an attempted rapist in a show or something.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (68:09)

And that we're taking blackface seriously.

Dr. Claire Aubin (68:12)

Yeah, that we're taking it very seriously.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (68:13)

Yes. We have to use blackface, because to show a real black person engaged in this is, like, rated X.

Dr. Claire Aubin (68:20)

You know, it's too, too scary. Like, it's so. I mean, I. I hope people listening to this will, like, understand that that's the context. It's not just him, but it's what he creates. And that's true of a lot of people I've talked about on the show. But it. He creates this thing that lives far, far past him. The KKK exists, like, today. And there's no way to say, like, okay, well, he might have contributed to that and it might have. Like, he did. There is no. There's no question about this.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (68:50)

There's no question. There's no question.

Dr. Claire Aubin (68:52)

The KKK as it currently exists still will show things like Birth of a Nation, like memes. Like, obviously this is stuff that I work on, but, like, they'll use, like kkk, Birth of a Nation, screenshot memes and stuff. Like, it's there. It still exists. It floats around in this ideology right now. So it's really important.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (69:12)

The tree that he planted is still giving us fruit.

Dr. Claire Aubin (69:15)

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (69:16)

Fruit that we consume on a daily basis.

Dr. Claire Aubin (69:18)

On a daily basis.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (69:19)

And that is just astounding. And I think that's what's so powerful for my students in who take my class, is that they are sort of gobsmacked at how a film that was made over a hundred years ago that feels so fake and so phony and so outlandish could have that kind of staying power. And if that film could do that, what other films could do that going forward? How else might we be being sort of duped in ways that we don't even pay attention to because we believe that what we're seeing is either legitimate or credible or reinforcing ideas that we already have about a particular person or history or circumstance.

Dr. Claire Aubin (70:03)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that is a great place to end before we get chewing, overloading. But just so everyone knows, D.W. griffith, his career declines in the late 1920s, and then he dies alone.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (70:16)

He peaked early.

Dr. Claire Aubin (70:17)

Yeah. Peaks very early. He dies alone in an LA hotel room in 1948. He doesn't really have that much reputation in the film industry. And that's the end of it.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (70:26)

He's got no family either. He's like, twice divorced, no kids. I mean, it's kind of sad.

Dr. Claire Aubin (70:32)

I mean, yeah, I would feel bad for him, but also, I don't feel that bad for him.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (70:36)

No, I don't feel bad for him at all.

Dr. Claire Aubin (70:38)

It's one of these, like.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (70:38)

Well, okay, I listen. He still has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. They didn't take away his commemorative stamp, you know.

Dr. Claire Aubin (70:46)

Yeah, he.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (70:48)

He's gonna be just fine. Yeah, unfortunately.

Dr. Claire Aubin (70:50)

Unfortunately. Thank you so much for coming on. Normally I have to say something like, did you convince me? But I was there from the beginning and I should probably just take that segment out of this because I go into these hating these people. Thank you so much for coming on. Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson can be found on Twitter at K Carter Jackson Blue Sky. Also K Carter Jackson, Instagram is Ellie Carter Jackson to keep you on your toes. And you can get a copy of We Refuse at the link in our episode description.

Dr. Kelly Carter Jackson (71:16)

Thank you so much for having me. This is great.

Dr. Claire Aubin (71:20)

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of this Guy Sucked. A member of the Multitude Podcast collective. This episode was Hosted by me, Dr. Claire Aubin, featuring special guest Kelly Carter Jackson, and edited by Julia Sheffini. All of our theme music was written and produced by Supreme Pancake Flipper Marshall Dean Williams. If you'd like to support the show and get access to all episodes, including two extra episodes per month, and access to our full archive of episodes, you can subscribe@patreon.com thisguysucked See you next week.