Podcast Summary: This Guy Sucked

Episode: Martin Witherspoon Gary with Vanessa Williamson
Host: Dr. Claire Aubin
Guest: Vanessa Williamson (Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution; Author, The Price of Democracy)
Date: November 13, 2025

Overview:

This episode of This Guy Sucked investigates the legacy of Martin Witherspoon Gary, a former Confederate general and architect of post-Civil War racist politics in South Carolina. Host Dr. Claire Aubin and guest Dr. Vanessa Williamson discuss how myths around taxes, “taxpayer” rhetoric, and white supremacist politics intersected during Reconstruction. The conversation draws a direct line from post-Civil War Southern politics to present-day anti-tax arguments, showing how the language of fiscal conservatism often masked (and still masks) efforts to disenfranchise marginalized groups.

Key Discussion Points & Insights:

1. Why Study the History of Taxes? (02:03–06:40)

• Dr. Williamson shares that her fascination with taxation began during the Tea Party movement’s rise. At a Tea Party rally, she observed a Gold Star mother equating her sacrifice for the nation to paying taxes, revealing a deep, almost moral anger at tax obligations.
• Quote:

  “[T]here's something that happens when you actually just hate taxes... what you're really saying is you hate the government and in particular you're saying you hate the government that responds to the needs of other people.” (04:21 – Vanessa Williamson)

• Taxes provide a unique moral and cultural touchstone in American political discourse—revealing anxiety about government legitimacy, citizenship, and who deserves to belong.

2. Retconning the Boston Tea Party & American Tax Myths (06:40–10:28)

• The popular understanding of the Boston Tea Party as an anti-tax protest is a myth. It was in fact a reaction to a tax cut for the East India Company, fueling fears of monopoly, not high taxes.
• Quote:

  “The original Tea Party... it was not about high taxes. It was about a tax cut... it would allow [the East India Company] to become a monopoly. Sam Adams talks about this Tea Act... as introductive of monopolies that were a danger to public liberty.” (07:30 – Vanessa Williamson)

• This misconception feeds a broader (false) narrative that Americans have always been fervently anti-tax.

3. Birth of the “Taxpayer” Identity and its Racial Politics (10:28–13:03)

• The concept of the “taxpayer” as an identity emerged post-Civil War, primarily as a rhetorical tool for white elites seeking to delegitimize multiracial Reconstruction governments in the South.
• Quote:

  “The development of the idea of a taxpayer... is very wrapped up in a new kind of argument... to discredit the multiracial democracies of the American South.” (10:28 – Vanessa Williamson)

• Former Confederates reframed themselves as “taxpayers” to regain political power after losing military and political authority.

4. Who Was Martin Witherspoon Gary? (13:03–15:13)

• Gary, born to a wealthy South Carolina planter family, was a Confederate general who refused to surrender at Appomattox, later dedicating his life to restoring pre-war white supremacy.
• Quote:

  “He refused, famously, to surrender at Appomattox... Gary rides away... goes and finds Jefferson Davis and resigns his commission to the Confederate former Confederate president.” (13:42 – Vanessa Williamson)

5. Reconstruction’s Challenges and Rise of Taxpayer Rhetoric (18:15–23:46)

• The devastation of the South required investment—public schools, infrastructure—but former elites never accepted the legitimacy or taxation of Reconstruction governments.
• “Taxpayer” rhetoric allowed elites to:
  1. Recast themselves as patriots, not traitors
  2. Unify rich planters and poor whites
  3. Appear respectable and nonpartisan to the North
• This language disguised racial motives and reframed anti-democratic campaigns as fights for fiscal responsibility.

6. The South Carolina Taxpayers Convention & the Edgefield Plan (27:19–35:44)

• Gary chaired the Taxpayers Convention, which, despite ostensible focus on corruption and electoral reform, was a cover for organizing violent efforts to overthrow Reconstruction governments.
• Quote:

  “...Gary and his buddies set up this thing called the South Carolina Taxpayers Convention... nominally nonpartisan... they hold these conventions in 1871 and 1874... and they managed to get a couple Republicans to come who, frankly... should have known better.” (27:19 – Vanessa Williamson)

• The “Edgefield Plan,” masterminded by Gary, explicitly orchestrated voter intimidation, violence, and murder to suppress black political participation and reinstall white supremacy.
• Quote:

  "Democratic military clubs are to be armed with rifles and pistols. Every Democrat feel honor bound to control the vote of at least one negro by intimidation purchase keeping him away or as each individual may determine…” (51:45 – Vanessa Williamson, reading Gary’s plan) “Never threaten a man individually if he deserves to be threatened. The necessities of the time require that he should die.” (52:48 – Gary, via Vanessa Williamson)

7. Redemption and the End of Reconstruction (35:44–42:12)

• The violence and fraud of Redemption, culminating with the 1876 election, signaled the overthrow of black political power in the South.
• The federal government (Rutherford B. Hayes administration) chose capitulation over protecting black citizens or multiracial democracy.
• Quote:

  “Hampton said, every Republican tax collector in the state will be hungry by morning... the President of the United States would think, you are threatening members of my party... But…it was capitulation time.” (39:13–39:46)

8. Rhetorical Legacies and Enduring Racist Strategies (42:03–50:00)

• The alliance of white elites and poor whites was forged by the mythos of shared “taxpayer” status, masking the real project: restoring elite dominance and disenfranchising black citizens.
• This language and strategy echoes in contemporary anti-tax, anti-government rhetoric.
• Historians (and the hosts) argue for a more honest retelling, rejecting the “failure” framing of Reconstruction in favor of acknowledging its overthrow by force.

9. Corruption of the Taxpayer Crusaders (53:18–56:55)

• The “taxpayer” conventions proved rife with self-dealing; leaders like Gary and Butler personally profited from state bonds under the guise of “fighting corruption.”
• Redeemer governments that replaced Reconstruction were notoriously corrupt, with treasurers embezzling entire state revenues.

10. Tools of Disenfranchisement (60:20–65:20)

• Discussion of the origin of the “grandfather clause”—created to allow illiterate or poor whites to vote while disenfranchising black voters.
• Quote:

  “Grandfather clauses... were discriminatory voting laws... that exempt people whose grandfathers had been eligible to vote before the war…so it’s like…everything we say and do in America is based in these horrible, horrible things.” (60:20 – Claire Aubin)

• Poll taxes and “policy innovations” became techniques for mass disenfranchisement during and after the Redemption period.

11. Black Political Agency and the Hope of Reconstruction (65:20–70:15)

• Vanessa shares the story of Texas State Senator Matthew Gaines, a formerly enslaved man, who advocated for the right to pay taxes as the foundation of political participation.
• Quote:

  “Before, I didn’t pay taxes because my enslaver paid my taxes for me. And now I pay taxes... I would rather pay something and have it be a burden on me... than be in the position I was in before where someone was paying taxes for me... but that I was not free.” (65:20 – paraphrased by Claire Aubin, originally from Matthew Gaines)

• Black Americans saw taxes—and the ability to pay them—as fundamental to their new, hard-won citizenship and democracy.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When you've come to the point that you just hate taxes, conceptually, in any form, you hate them, what you're really saying is you hate the government—and in particular, you're saying you hate the government that responds to the needs of other people.” (04:21 – Vanessa Williamson)
• "[The Boston Tea Party]... was not about high taxes. It was about a tax cut..." (07:30 – Vanessa Williamson)
• “He refused, famously, to surrender at Appomattox... this guy Gary rides away. He's not going to be there to surrender.” (13:42 – Vanessa Williamson)
• “Never threaten a man individually if he deserves to be threatened. The necessities of the time require that he should die.” (52:48 – M.W. Gary via Vanessa Williamson)
• “They were using this like convention that was nominally about being anti corruption to in fact enrich themselves through corruption.” (54:24 – Vanessa Williamson)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–02:03 — Introduction; why talk about taxes?
• 06:40–10:28 — Myths about the Boston Tea Party and taxes
• 10:28–13:03 — Emergence of "taxpayer" identity after Civil War
• 13:03–15:13 — Martin Witherspoon Gary’s biography & refusal to surrender
• 18:15–23:46 — Reconstruction, taxation, and elite resistance
• 27:19–35:44 — Taxpayers Conventions and the Edgefield Plan
• 35:44–42:12 — Redemption, violence, and the end of Reconstruction
• 51:45–52:59 — Reading from Gary's 1876 plan (“Never threaten a man individually if he deserves to be threatened…”)
• 53:18–56:55 — Corruption among “taxpayer” elites and aftermath
• 60:20–65:20 — The origin and impact of the “grandfather clause”
• 65:20–70:15 — Senator Matthew Gaines’s advocacy for taxation as freedom
• 71:55–74:03 — Contemporary legacy of anti-tax rhetoric; concluding thoughts

Takeaways

• The myth of America’s inherent anti-tax stance was constructed for political purposes after the Civil War, specifically to destroy Black political power.
• Martin Witherspoon Gary was a primary architect of violent Redemption and the anti-tax "respectability" veneer that enabled it.
• Many anti-tax arguments, “taxpayer” rhetoric, and policy choices of today have direct continuity with white supremacist strategies of the late 19th century.
• The language we use ("taxpayer," "grandfather clause," etc.) carries powerful, often disturbing historical legacies.
• The fight over the meaning and distribution of taxes is fundamentally a fight over democracy, inclusion, and justice in America.