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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to this Guy Sucked, the show where we prove that it's never too late to have haters and you can't libel the dead. I'm your host, Dr. Claire Aubin, and I'm a historian, writer, and most importantly, certified hater. On this show, we talk about people from throughout history with legacies that need a little updating. Whether it's because of their politics, their behavior, or their impact on society and culture, these guys actually kind of sucked. And we bring in a new scholar every week to tell us why. With me today is Marlena Doubt, who is a professor of French and African Diaspora studies at Yale, which is also where I work. So this is my first institutional colleague on the show. I shall try not to embarrass myself too much. Marlena's work is primarily in the realm of Haitian cultural and intellectual history, and she has several incredible books on the subject, including one that was a 2025 Kundal Prize finalist, which is extremely cool. This most recent book is called the first and Last King of Haiti, the Rise and Fall of Henri Kristoff.
- [00:55]
B
Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.
- [00:58]
A
I like to start, and listeners will all already know this, but I like to start with a little question that's not related to the work that you've just done. Just because I think it's fun. If you were a scholar in anything other than the fields that you currently work in, what would your other dream area of scholarship be? So, like, it could be something that's totally off the wall, you've never studied, but just is like a little passion of yours that you could imagine yourself doing.
- [01:24]
B
I would be a Shakespeare scholar. Like, no hesitation. Or I would. Or like an actor. Like a Shakespearean actor.
- [01:30]
A
Cool. I love that. Is there a specific Shakespeare piece or type of Shakespeare, like sonnets or something that you feel particularly like, attached to?
- [01:41]
B
I love the Tempest. I just love the Tempest. I love reading it. I teach it sometimes just because I love it, even though it's not in my area. But the Caribbean writers also, I wouldn't say they loved the Tempest, but they talked about it a lot because of the character Caliban. So I have been able to sneak a little Shakespeare into my classes by yoking it to Caribbean writers.
- [02:05]
A
You know, what's funny is we have one episode on a Shakespearean actor, but Shakespeare has come up in so many of the episodes because people use him to teach lots of things, and he shows up in all these random places, and I always just think it's so Funny. Cause I'm also a huge Shakespeare fan. Glad that you said that. I have two Shakespeare tattoos, which is really embarrassing, but I love Shakespeare same.
- [02:32]
B
In fact, when my kids were little, my brother gave me a little figurine of Shakespeare. And so my kids were playing with it and some of my friends were just like, only you would have a Shakespeare little doll for your children.
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A
I'm like, that's true.
- [02:47]
B
Only I would do that.
- [02:48]
A
Yeah, there's my kid in his little. Shakespeare is emotional support Shakespeare.
- [02:56]
We should probably talk a little bit about the person that we're going to be making a whole episode about. So can you tell me who the person you've chosen to hate on a little bit today is?
- [03:07]
B
In a move that will surprise no one who knows me, I chose Napoleon Bonaparte.
- [03:13]
A
I want to start this part off by saying that this is our. For listeners who, most of whom, some of whom will already know this, this is actually our second Napoleon episod being a few months ago with Nicole Cochrane, who is a historian primarily of European Napoleonic culture. So when you said that you wanted to talk about Napoleon from the view of his colonial relationships and perpetration of violence in French colonies, I was really, really excited because I felt like we didn't have enough time to cover that in the first episode and the first part of the Napoleon story. And because we've talked about him already, we don't have to stick to the straightforward here's what you need to know about him. Here's what's bad format that we usually use on the show, because I want to hear the story that you would like to tell about him. Listeners will already have engaged with that, hopefully. And if you haven't, go listen to the first. If you haven't, pause and go listen to the first episode. But because of that, we're going to skip some of the biographical stuff because people can go back and listen instead. I want to maybe do. Because we like to give some context. We do like biographical context on the person initially. But instead I would like, if you could give some context on, or maybe cultural context in the Caribbean before the rise of Napoleon, so that we can see him as a sort of interlocutor in Haitian and Caribbean history rather than the start of them, which I feel is often the framing. So can you tell us about life pre Napoleon? Basically, yes.
- [04:42]
B
So my research is largely on Haiti and the Haitian Revolution, but I also work on the French Caribbean. And so really the kind of Napoleon in the Caribbean story starts with Christopher Columbus. Sure. Because this is the moment when colonizers, right, And Napoleon is going to join this club. But colonizers, you know, come to the Caribbean and begin to set up settlements and. And then begin forcibly transporting Africans across the oceans to work as slaves in Hispaniola, which Christopher Columbus renamed the island of Haiti. Hispaniola. They bring slaves to work the land. It's a sugar colony. And then the French come. By 1697, the French have taken over the western third of the island, which is of course, today Haiti. And they basically transform the island into a full blown plantation society. The colony of Saint Domingue, as the French call it, becomes the quote, unquote, pearl of the Antilles, which is a dubious label because this is all from sugar and slavery. And so it's really not a surprise that it's a very brutal place because it is a slave society. The only reason that Europeans are going there at that point is for slavery to perpetuate it, to make money off of it. And the Haitian Revolution breaks out in 1791, and still Napoleon is not really in our frame yet. But that is kind of the beginning of the story that he will enter into is when the Haitian Revolution breaks out.
- [06:17]
A
I want to spend just a little bit of time, like, in this world, because I think, and I tried to kind of like, allude to this, but there's this thing where people seem to believe that anything that Napoleon touched began with Napoleon, if that makes sense, that there is no pre Napoleon. There is only what comes after him. And I think that is a huge part of the problem with his legacy. And I don't know if that's how you would characterize that as well. Traditional European history of Haiti often starts the story with the appearance of the French or Napoleon's appearance. And that, like, there's nothing before, which I find as a scholar, even as a scholar of not this very dubious. And that to me is like an immediate red flag when you look at a history that seems to, like, start at a point where you're like, what about what's before that? Right? So before Napoleon, this society is built on this extreme inequality, right? Like, it's also one of the most, if not the most profitable colony in the world because of sugar and coffee and indigo, again, all of which is produced via slave labor or enslaved labor, I should say. And this generates this immense amount of wealth for France, really becoming France's economic engine, while also not offering any sense of, like, humanity for the people that are producing all of this wealth. Can you tell me a little bit more about, like, what life Looks like there for people.
- [07:52]
B
Yes. So this is a place of extreme brutality. Saint Domingue in the 18th century in particular. So if you think about this, brutality existed under Spanish rule as well. Right. And in fact, it's under Spanish rule that the genocide that happens against the indigenous population of the island and the Spanish have decimated this island in terms of its indigenous population. So when the French get there, they are entering into a kind of the world that Spain has left to them, which is, you know, maybe 10% of the indigenous there, there's already enslaved Africans there who have been forcibly transported. And then the French, in between 1697, when they formally take over the western side, and 1791 when the Haitian revolution breaks out, they forcibly transport more than 900,000 captive Africans to this tiny sliver of the island that is no bigger than the US state of Massachusetts. This is astonishing. It is several times more than they will do on the island of Martinique, Guadalupe, there are other possessions in South America and on the African continent. This is astonishing. And of that more than 900,000 they will land more than 800,000. So many die. So that's the first level of brutality. Of course, then again, this plantation world that they set up is one where enslavers have almost completely way to do whatever they want. And anytime, even back in France, when they try to make some rules, they reform the Code Noir several times, the colonists always find a way to skirt it. In fact, there's scholarship, legal scholarship, that shows literally only one person was potentially ever punished for killing an enslaved person. And when I say potentially, it's like he was indicted and tried and found guilty. But did he actually suffer the punishment that the law stated?
- [09:59]
A
No.
- [09:59]
B
It was common for enslavers to cut off ears, fingers, arms, legs. We know this because even in their own ads that they would place in newspapers to recapture fugitives from slavery, because of course people wanted to run away from this. They would say missing an arm, missing a leg. They would say walking with a 30 pound NABO, which is a weight on their foot. This was supposed to prevent them from running away. And I think it must be very bad if you're running away with this entire apparatus. And one of the things that breaks my heart about reading these fugitive slave notices is how often children ran away. Yeah, of course, say a five year old, a seven year old girl alone. And I think, my goodness, you're running away. You're a child. You'd prefer the wilderness and the outdoors than staying where you are. That's what life was like on this island.
- [10:58]
A
I'm glad that you mentioned also this sort of, like, feeling of heartbreak when you look at these things, because obviously, it's infinitely worse for the people experiencing them, like, by you a million magnitudes. There is this thing when you're a historian who's interacting with really horrific histories and you're looking at them and thinking, like, that is a child. In a lot of cases, it'll be like, I have a child, and I'm thinking about my child off in the wilderness or whatever, making this choice. And there are so many moments like that where you're like. I mean, for me, the way I'm dealing with this, right, is by creating this, like, silly show where we say how much we hate people. But, like, there is this feeling of just, like, abject horror and sadness that happens a lot when we encounter some of these histories. And I think for me, and for a lot of historians, particularly historians who work on the history of chattel slavery, there is this, like, that everything is suffused with that. Like, is. That is just part of the experience of looking at it. And so it's like. Because the horrors are so far beyond what people imagine them to be or what they learn about in high school or whatever. But I don't know why I thought. But I just. It just, like, struck me at one point. Let me see if I have the numbers on this. Right. But at one point, by the late 18th century, enslaved Africans are about 90% of the population in Saint Domingue. Is that right?
- [12:22]
B
I'm terrible at statistics, but, yes, by the time the Haitian Revolution breaks out. So somebody out there. I can do the statistical math, but there's about 450 to 465,000 captive Africans or enslaved Africans in 1791. And there's about 25 to 30,000 white French colonists. And then there's about the same amount of free people of color, many of whom are also enslavers, because they are the products of white enslavers and African women, whom sometimes they got their freedom, they were manumitted, and then they became plantation owners and enslavers as well. So, yes, there's a huge imbalance in terms of the number of captive Africans versus kind of quote, unquote, people with free status.
- [13:07]
A
One of the things I kind of came across in looking at some of your work on this is also trying to understand Haitian culture or culture and sending, whatever people want to call it at this moment in time is that it's not a French society, because 90% of the population are not French. Right. Like it's profoundly African, not even like a Creole. Like it is a profoundly African society. Is that a reasonable characterization for part of this? If you consider everyone who lives there to be part of its society, which I do, yes. So it's an African majority society under French occupation at this point?
- [13:44]
B
Basically, yes. Because what you would see, right, if you again, look to those newspapers, you would see, oh, plays, they're putting on a play by Moliere or they're putting on, you know, in the theater, that's what you would see. But in the streets, 60% of, again, going by the 1791 number, 60% of the captive Africans are literally from Africa. At least 60% have been forcibly transported within the last two to three years. Because if you think about that earlier number I gave, if the French alone land 800,000 captive Africans on the island in 100 years, then the fact that there's only half that amount 100 years later, which also takes into account the ones who are born there, you see the extremely high death rate. So that's why they keep having to bring more and more ships. When I was reading the newspaper one day, again, one of these visceral moments, in just one week span, a ship had 800 captive Africans on it and another one had 1100. And I'm trying to wrap my mind around a world in which this came to seem normal to people. But again, think about all the languages that you would hear on the plantations, in the streets of Cap, where enslaved people would be on errands for their enslavers. And they had their own dances, they had their own religions, they had their own lives and stories that were the French were trying to snuff out. But we can clearly see from Haitian culture today that they weren't able to do it entirely.
- [15:17]
A
Sure. And like leading up to truly, even as a precursor to the Haitian Revolution, this is a site of very active resistance too, but in ways that a lot of people don't often catalog as resistance, which I think is very interesting. Like it's not a place of just like passive suffering where something bad happens and people are just, you know, you're talking about people running away all the time, like children running away. That is an example of active resistance, whether people are willing to recognize that or not. There are those day to day acts and then also these very large scale things too. So you have things like sabotaging plantation tools was a common problem. I'm saying problem in quotation. I don't think that's A problem, but you know, a problem. Faking illness, running away, forming things like maroon communities where people would. Who all ran away would go form little communities, organized uprisings, secretly teaching each other to read and speak different languages, maintaining African languages and rights. Like this is a site of resistance too, before the revolution happens. And I think that gets missed a lot in this history too. And this is still like all pre Napoleon stuff that I think is. Is worth talking about.
- [16:30]
Hi there, it's Claire. The episode you're currently listening to is free for everybody, but the next one won't be because we're trying to make this show independently and sustainably. We switch off between free weeks and Patreon weeks. So if you're a fan of good, accurate public history made by actual experts, consider supporting our Patreon. It's only one tier, which means everyone who subscribes gets access to the same perks across the board. For the price of a pair of socks, you'll get access to a new episode every week instead of just the biweekly free ones. And they'll all be ad free for you. You'll also get access to the full episode archive, bonus content, early access to merch, and lots of other fun Patreon exclusives to sweeten the deal, just head over to patreon.com thisguysucked or follow the link in the episode description to sign up.
- [17:16]
And from your work, you can also see that it's a site of intellectual life in a way that a lot of people are unwilling to acknowledge or view because they can only view things in light of the Enlightenment. Yes, there are people who are thinking this whole gamut of people who are thinking outside and around the context of the Enlightenment, which is, I think, is very threatening to people who are kind of dedicated to a singular white European view of what an intellectual is.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Can you talk to me a little bit more about this sort of intellectual life happening here?
- [17:48]
B
Yes. I want to do it in a kind of perhaps non conventional or a less intuitive way, please. So in these fugitive slave ads, which I always take issue when people say, oh, well, Saint Domingue, comparatively didn't have a lot of, you know, maroon societies. It's like they had constant mellonage in terms of people being fugitives. It's just that the apparatus of the French was so strong to recapture them. They had what are called mera chaussees, which were these kind of sometimes enslaved people were forced to work on them to go out and find the maroons and bring them back. So in reading These ads, once they captured, recaptured someone who had ran away, they would put another ad. So sort of the first ad would be, here's what the person looks like. If you see them, please, this is the owner, and return them. But sometimes the enslaved person would not either know how to say their name. According to the French colonists, refuse to say their name or say something else, say the wrong name. And so there's this case of this man. He's captured and he's thrown into the jail I call Saint Domingue the Carceral Colony, because every single little hamlet had a jail, no matter how small, for these fugitives to put these fugitives from slavery in. So they wrote in the ad that his name was Liberty, because when they asked him what his name was, all he said was liberte. The minute I saw it, I said to myself, that man's name is not Liberty. Well, sure, you know, he was making a statement.
- [19:18]
A
Yeah.
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B
And so often, even now I see people talking about the American Revolution, put the words liberty in people's mouths, you know, and in the streets, it's like, absolutely not. You know, I've done a lot of research on even the indigenous population and their struggles to defeat the Spaniards who invaded after 1492, and also to coexist with them and strike treaties with them. And so the idea that things like liberty and equality came from the American Revolution in 1776 is so ahistorical to me. And especially when I'm reading these ads and I'm saying to myself, running away, this is an intellectual project. They are saying no. People of all ages and they're saying no. And so a large part of my work has been been about not just the pamphlets, the anti slavery pamphlets that crop up in the late 18th century in Saint Domingue and that crop up after the French Revolution, but about showing how we get to that idea of citizenship and equality is from much, much earlier. And even many of the philosophes, the French philosophes, only derive these theories after learning about slave revolts and rebellions, after learning about indigenous resistance. And I feel that we're still not quite fully to the realm of fully acknowledging this. I see a lot of talk right now about the American Revolution and about how it is the single force that changed the world. Only if you believe that the world started with the American Revolution.
- [20:55]
A
Yeah, I mean, it is interesting when people are talking about things like no kings, right? Where they're like, we're opposed to kings. And the, the no kings thing. The only frame of reference they have is like, King George or whatever is like America apparently throwing off the yoke of the monarchy. Which, again, for who was this yoke thrown off? Can I just start there? But also, like, it is interesting that people. When I say people, again, I'm not saying you and me, and I'm also probably not saying a lot of the people who listen to this show, but that there is this belief that, like, this first real thrusting off of the yoke of monarchy or of oppression comes from the US and even, like the French Revolution, people are like, oh, well, that kind of fails afterwards. And then they go back. But I'm like, we actually have another very good example of this elsewhere that. I don't know why we're not talking about that one.
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B
Yes.
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A
I just say there's another one that we should really be talking about here that keeps getting left out of this broad public narrative, in part because of who is doing the overthrowing or who is doing the revolting. Because it's not, you know, white landowners in America who are doing the revolting. It's formerly enslaved people. And I think that's worth talking about. And also the idea that I like this story about this enslaved person or enslaved man saying his name is. Or people assuming he's saying his name is Liberty, because they just don't believe that he would know what liberty is or what the concept of freedom is, when clearly what he's doing is asserting his agency and saying, I am a person possessing of this thing and this thing which I have taken for myself. Right. By running away, freeing myself, I have taken this thing for myself. And people are like, he said his name was Liberty. And reproducing this over and over again. Yeah, I don't know. I can see that being a source of frustration in looking at this.
- [22:50]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Because it eclipses.
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A
Right.
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B
An entire world. Like, we cannot see the world of intellect that enslaved people were engaged in. And we can't see it because the French colonists didn't want us to be able to see it. Right. So if you say to someone, what's your name? And they say you're jailing them, and they say Liberty, Like, I think, what kind of person, what kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to think that that's the person's name? But that's what the project of French colonialism was about, that denial. There was another man in a different jail. He ran away so many times that he had multiple stamps brands on his body. And finally, I'm thinking, this man wanted liberty so badly. That in this final notice that I find of him, I didn't find any more notices for him after this. It said that he was stamped with Je suis Maron or I am a maroon. Like, they literally tried to brand that on him so that anyone who encountered him would know that he had been engaged in maronage multiple times. But instead, he's portrayed as highly dangerous, rebellious. Like, if you see him, you know, watch out, immediately arrest him. It's like, this is a true freedom fighter. Yeah, he was determined.
- [24:04]
A
Well, also, I mean, not in a. I don't want to sort of romanticize this, but in a beautiful way also, them saying, you know, this is bad, you're someone who runs away. On the flip side of that is this is a person who seeks out their freedom. Like, this is a person who, yes, at their core, they are someone who is seeking freedom at all times. Like that is also not. Again, I'm not saying beautiful as in, like, this is beautiful and romantic, but that is a beautiful thing too. But truly in the opposite way of how it was intended, at least to me, I see that as like an incredible thing. Like, yes, this is a person who runs away. And some people interpret that as a sign of danger. But I think that's also a sign of like deep personal conviction in terms of one's own worth and one's own.
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B
Sort of will to live.
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A
I think that's something. We're so far away from Napoleon.
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But that's totally okay.
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B
But actually not really we're not. Because this is helpful. I was thinking about this, like, to understand the magnitude of what Napoleon did, we have to understand what he tried to bring back.
- [25:06]
A
Yeah.
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B
Right. Because otherwise slavery is like an abstraction.
- [25:10]
A
Yeah.
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B
Instead of a real thing that is going to drastically change people's lives because of something that Napoleon does.
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A
Yeah. I mean, okay, so to get there, let's start with at one point, slavery is allegedly abolished.
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B
Yes.
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A
So that's an important thing to know. It really is. In order to get us to Napoleon, slavery is abolished in part because of this long term struggle that's happening there. This constant active resistance. And then the Haitian revolution, which you can explain a lot better than I can. Can you tell me what happens in terms of the abolition of slavery? Slavery or abolition? Abolishment.
- [25:50]
B
Yes, abolition, Abolition, Abolition.
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A
My brain, just like, I like short circuit it. Yes.
- [25:57]
B
So I mentioned the revolution kind of formally breaks out in August 1791. And so for two years there's fires, the plantations are on fire, the northern plain, basically the plantation economy is stopped. And you can imagine the French are freaking out, and they want to do anything possible to kind of get things back together. So they send three commissioners who are supposed to, quote, unquote, restore order. Now, whenever the French in this time period say restore order, it's a euphemism. They mean bring back slavery, bring back French domination, bring back the plantation society. So the three commissioners they send end up getting to the island and going, this is after the French republic has been declared. Then the French kill their king. So now we're in 1793, and these commissioners are like, oh, my God, this is way worse than we thought it was going to be. We are never going to get these enslaved people to all put down their weapons en masse and pick up gardening tools and, you know, agricultural tools. Like, this is not going to happen.
- [26:58]
A
Yeah.
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B
And so they actually abolished slavery. Two men, Soto, nax and Povera, formally, Because obviously, from what I just said, you can see that the enslaved have already abolished slavery. So they formalized this, which the French colonists are so upset about. They have these two commissioners recalled to France, where they basically have to kind of undergo a trial. But in the meantime, the French national convention, because France, as I mentioned, had a revolution, got rid of their king, and now has a new government. And the French national convention not only ratifies the abolition of slavery in Saint Domingue, but abolishes slavery in all French overseas territories. This is astonishing. Remarkable. Remarkable. This is where the story could have ended.
- [27:44]
A
Sure.
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B
And it could have been a huge turning point for the world if it weren't for one single man, and that is Napoleon Bonaparte. And I'm not even being hyperbolic.
- [27:54]
A
Yeah. Like, that could have been the end of this story, and, well, the end of one story and the beginning of another if it wasn't for this freaking guy. Like, this one person shows up, and, I mean, well, he reestablishes slavery. Like, one of the things that I find so insane in terms of the way that Napoleon is framed. And also, for people who want to learn more about this, go read Marlena's New York Times article from 2021. It's called Napoleon is not a hero. Napoleon isn't a hero. To celebrate, one of the things that I find so strange about this framing is that France still now celebrates the fact that it was the first European country to abolish chattel slavery, glossing over the fact that they are also the only European country to re establish it. Yeah. That is wild to me that this is part of the national mythology, because It's. It's also part of the way that they can glorify Napoleon forever and ever and ever, while also being like, some things are kind of bad, but he's also really great and we love him, is by saying, well, we abolished slavery and we do not need to talk about the fact that we're the only ones to bring it back. Also, that makes me feel crazy.
- [29:09]
B
It is because you think about it as. Not only does Napoleon reinstate slavery on the island of Guadeloupe and elsewhere in French overseas territories with a July 1802 law, he maintains slavery in Martinique, which has now been returned by 1802 to French hands. Martinique did not fall under the 1794 law because the French had lost the colony or relinquished it to Great Britain. As you know, during this time period, they traded around the islands like little pieces of negotiating pieces after. During treaties. And so Napoleon is going to be forced to abdicate his throne for the first time in 1814, the second definitive time in 1815. But slavery persists in the French overseas territories until 1848. So his actions, it's not like, oh, once he was gone, I mean, it would be a long time anyway, 1802 to 1815. Right. But it's longitudinal consequences. Great Britain abolishes slavery before France does. So this really sets the cause of human rights back. And yet the French will tell you that they created the modern discourse of human rights with the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen, which not only did not include women, as Olam de Gouge famously reminded the world with her Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Citizen, but it didn't include black people, it didn't include people of color. It was nothing like what would be the true beginning of modern human rights, which is actually the Haitian Revolution.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so then when you put it in that frame, you see that it's. It's an orchestrated silence that is meant to prop up one story at the expense of another truer story.
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A
I will also say that sometimes, for context, for people, it's hard when we'll say, like, okay, so this thing happened in 1802, and then it doesn't get abolished again until 1848. And people are like, okay, so that's only 46 years. Right. But a good example of this, if people want to go back and listen to another episode that's somewhat related. We talked about Henry Dundas with Ashish Kapoor, Siddiq, and we talk about the fact that during the 40 years that one of these people that this guy Henry Dundas delayed the abolition of slavery in Scotland. 500,000 more people were enslaved. 40 years is so long in terms of a lifespan, even just in a human's life. That's one half or more than one half of your life being spent in slavery. Like, imagine your, for listeners, your life right now that you're currently living. I'm 31. And imagine all of that is under a system of slavery. Like that's actually so long in a human lifespan and the number of people, the human cost of that is enormous. And it's this guy's fault, like, truly. So I just, I'm hoping people are listening to this and thinking like, wow, that is actually because when we look at history, some people see it in this sort of telescoping way where they think the further we get away from something, the smaller it is. But people are living just normal lives like you and I are living. Like their lifespans are similar to the lifespans that you and I have. Like, this is a very long time for a person to experience this. And for example, in the case of someone who might already have been older, that's the rest of their life. That's it. And that's it.
- [32:35]
B
Or a child.
- [32:36]
A
Or a child.
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B
It could be their whole life. Because people didn't live that long and enslaved. Well, definitely didn't.
- [32:42]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And I should have said that to be fair. Like for a lot of these people, that is their entire life.
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B
It's their entire life.
- [32:47]
A
It far exceeds the length of their life. And when you think about it that way, the like, for me, the like gut churning hatred of Napoleon Bonaparte, like the feeling of like, I can't believe it just makes me feel so angry and frustrated and like, I can't believe that you have to like sit here and write books where you say like, like you're not being nice to Napoleon, but you have to act like this is just a thing. Thing that happened, like a reasonable debate. Sure.
- [33:16]
B
When I'm like, it's not, it's like you with Nazis in them in America. It's like I have to treat this as a serious, the serious historical subject that it is. But I cannot say, you know, as we're saying here, I cannot say he's a monster though. Yeah, he is an absolute monster. Because, you know, I haven't even talked about. One of the objections that I got when I first came out with the New York Times article was that, oh, well, he did it for commercial reasons, as if that would make it better.
- [33:44]
A
Right.
- [33:44]
B
He did it for commerce. Oh, he had no choice. So, you know, and the thing is that when you go into his own statements, Napoleon is a white supremacist.
- [33:54]
A
Absolutely.
- [33:55]
B
I am for the whites because I am white.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah. I mean, it is also. I mean, okay. And this is my own maybe me being a little bit, like, spicy or reactionary or whatever, but sometimes I'm like, I wish that he had just said it was because. Or that we all just understood that it was because he just was a white supremacist. Like, in the sense where people are like, well, it's for commercial reasons. Well, can we just stand on business with this? Like, can we just be real about this? And, like, I wish that we could just be honest that this is actually the reason, because then we can actually move forward, because if you forever do this thing where you obscure what's actually happening, we can't actually understand it. So even if it were just commercial reasons and someone is making that argument. Okay, then you have to believe that enslaved laborers are simply economic actors. Like, that they are, in fact, the profit centers that these people see them as. That they are actually not people. They're simply. Yes, they are goods in and of themselves and things which produce goods.
- [34:52]
B
And that they don't matter.
- [34:53]
A
And that they don't matter. In order to make the commercial argument, you have to yourself, personally be engaging in dehumanization of these people. Like, you have to be objectifying them. Otherwise, your argument doesn't exist. Right, right. Like, I wish. And I wish people were just honest about that.
- [35:10]
B
Yeah. Because it's not better, like, for commercial reasons. In fact, in certain ways, there's another argument. You could say it's actually worse. Right. Because another thing that you bump up against is, like, if you say, oh, Napoleon was racist, they're like, everyone was racist. I'm like, first of all, not everyone was racist, but you know what I mean? Like, they can excuse that. Almost like, oh, he did it because he was racist, but everyone was racist. He's the man of his time. So it's interesting to me. The commercial argument is exactly what you said. That means you think that black lives matter so little that they can just stay 46 more years in slavery to prop up the economic system of France and make France rich.
- [35:47]
A
Yeah.
- [35:47]
B
It's a crazy argument.
- [35:48]
A
Yeah. I've talked about this so many times on the show that people are probably, like, tired of me saying this. But just in case someone's new here, as a side note to people, there may or may not be a book in the Works based on this exact thing coming out in the next couple of years. But the man of his time thing just simply does not hold up in particular because people will say, well, everyone was racist back then. And I have to say, okay, but what about the people they were being racist towards? Yes. Were those people racist?
- [36:14]
B
Yes.
- [36:14]
A
Like, what about the people being oppressed by this? Because in order to make that argument, you have to believe that those people are not people. Yes. In order to say everyone is racist, you have to feel like some people don't count as everyone.
- [36:24]
B
Right.
- [36:25]
A
And I don't think that that's how we should be counting humans personally, as either. As if they already have power, then they count as a person. And if they're being dehumanized, then they don't count as a. Because that, to me is like, well, you're just doing the exact thing. You're just being a racist, basically, if you say that. And. But people are unwilling to acknowledge that that's what they're doing.
- [36:44]
B
Right. That they're people of their time.
- [36:46]
A
Yeah.
- [36:46]
B
In most slave societies, enslaved people outnumbered the enslavers by a lot. So who are the real people of their time?
- [36:54]
A
Exactly. This is a thing that infuriates me. And the further we get into the show, the more angry I get about it, because I do run up against it all the time, like, constantly. And I have to constantly reassert the same thing over and over again and say, who do you count as a person? Like, at base. That's the main question you need to answer before we continue to have a conversation about this. Who do you count as a person? Because if you'd count Napoleon, but not the people he's keeping enslaved, this is not a conversation worth having, basically, because you don't think the people that I think are people are people. So we're gonna get. We're gonna get nowhere basically with this. And there's no convincing you at this point. You know, I don't know. I.
- [37:38]
B
Know. It's so sad to me also, because Napoleon is responsible for millions of people's deaths.
- [37:46]
A
Yeah.
- [37:46]
B
Sometimes when I really. I step back and I think about why the French, in particular, would want so ardently to defend this man who is a mass murderer of other French people, even gets French people killed of other white European. And I think, what is that impulse that makes people want to defend? Why does it mean so much to them, so much more than any other life?
- [38:11]
A
Yeah. I mean, I do think it's also interesting that people will spend all this time saying this is how many millions of people who die in Napoleonic wars. Right. And then all these people that die in French colonies are not counted in his body count.
- [38:25]
B
No.
- [38:26]
A
Which would be magnitudes higher if they were. Yeah. There is this. You're right. This impulse to simply, like, keep some people out of the story no matter what, despite the fact that actually their inclusion would make the story a lot more interesting and tell a much broader story about the world in general, actually, if they were included. But people want it not to be part of the story. And as a historian, that makes me so. That feels like, so devastating to want to keep something out of a story, if that makes sense, or to keep something out of a history. It just makes me so frustrated. And I wrote down all these questions to ask you that I was like. But so many of them have been answered a little bit over the course of this. But, like, one of the things that I have come across before, and I don't know if you've come across this, but I think it fits into this, is this, how do you fight back against the stupid question where people are sort of like, the Haitian revolutionary struggle, the Caribbean struggle, and ultimate establishment of self governance are only kind of possible without a tyrant to struggle against. Right. Like, why do you think people still want to lay the successes of Caribbean peoples still at the feet of people like Napoleon, to sort of redeem him? Like, why is there this need for redemption in all of these? Do you have any ideas?
- [39:52]
B
You know, I think part of the effort to do what you were talking about just prior to. To that. Right. Which is to, like, make sure that a certain part of the story gets left out. Because if you wanted to tell a story about modern genocide, Right. Most people would say, oh, I'm going to talk about the Holocaust. Right. They would start there. But Napoleon and his army, under his directives, they try to perpetuate another genocide. On the island of Saint Domingue, they institute what are called these kind of vapor ships. They would allow the hold to fill with sulfur and they would trap people down there. The principally people of color who had fought in the French army, who. They had this policy. They wanted to get rid of all of them, even the ones who had previously fought on behalf of France. And then they would release the hold, suffocate their bodies and just drop them into the sea. They also did mass drownings. There are literal, actual engravings of it. That's how well known it was. So to go from something that basically everyone in the 19th century knows that France has done this this is the shame of France, to see it being silenced and then to see the story get kind of reframed. As for those who want to see in this a positive outcome, they say, well, you know, at least the Haitian revolutionaries, you know, got their freedom. They got liberty. But the other part of that story, of course, is that they get punished first. Under Napoleon, he still has designs to, quote, unquote, retake Saint Domingue, which means to bring back slavery, the saints. And think about it from his perspective, he had done it in Guadeloupe, so he's thinking that potentially it's possible. And in fact, he receives multiple reconquest plans in the Bibliotheque Nationale and in the National Archives of France are folders and folders of former administrators from Saint Domingue, regular people, ex French colonists, submitting to him reconquest plans that include things like kill Haiti's founders, current leaders. Jean Jacques Dessalines, who had become emperor of Haiti, Henri Christophe, who I wrote my book about, who becomes the king of Haiti, turn them against each other. At one point, one of the former administrators suggests to Napoleon and his administration that they can use Christophe's child, who is going to school in France, against him and hold him captive the way they had previously done with the famous revolutionary general Toussaint Virtue's children. And then, just to show you the callousness on this particular report, so there must have been a gap between when the man wrote it and when he was about to submit it, because then he put a little asterisk by the name of Christophe's son, and he wrote, actually, I just found out his son has been killed. That he died because the French threw Christophe's son into an orphanage following Haitian independence to retaliate against him. They kicked him out of the school, closed the school, threw him into an orphanage, and allowed him to be beaten in the streets of Paris, where he died. And this, again, is a child. These are things that happen under Napoleon.
- [42:58]
A
And it's the sort of thing where you say, I'll put an asterisk here because he's already died. But, like, if he hadn't died, we would have taken him hostage, right? Like. Like, that would have been okay, his murder, you know, obviously bad. But also, if he hadn't been murdered, we would have done this other horrific thing to him, to use him as this political pawn instead. There's no side of this that comes out not looking good, but, like, looking even moderately morally ethically acceptable. And so it is so bizarre. Like this New York Times article that you wrote or op ed that you wrote was because they were doing a 200th year celebration.
- [43:36]
What?
- [43:38]
Like, people can't see this, but I just made a face that's like, I actually. I cannot believe it's the same thing. We had a Christopher Columbus episode, and I think we're gonna make that one public because it was. It was private, but I think we're gonna re release it eventually as a public episode because it's like France has a million other people that you could think were great. Yes. And French colonial subjects that you could elevate. Why does it have to be him? Like, why is he the one that you are all so attached to when there are so other incredible people, thinkers, whatever. Yes. In France or in the places that they were calling France that now you still say actually these weren't France, even though French people were saying they were France back at the time. Like, it's crazy making. It's actually crazy making. It is.
- [44:22]
B
It is because. Because as you mentioned, there's so many other figures to prop up and you know, I went to this exhibit, so it was an exhibit that came out in 2021. It was a little belated because of the pandemic, but it was to commemorate the 200th anniversary of Napoleon Bonap death. Died in May 1821, famously in exile after he escaped from the island of Elba and then was re exiled on the island of St. Helena.
- [44:53]
A
Hello again, it's me, and I have a very, very exciting thing to tell you that I've been waiting for months to be allowed to say. Multitude has a new show out and it's hosted by my friend, medievalist and noted Charlemagne haters, Professor Matthew Gabriel. American Medieval is a podcast about the Middle Ages, but with an American twist. Every week, Matt is joined by an expert scholar to talk about either some bit of the medieval world itself or how Americans have, throughout our history, used the Middle Ages to say something about ourselves. Because if America has never been fully modern, it might be because we've always been a little bit medieval. Matt is the best, and I'm so incredibly stoked that this show exists, if only because now we're close to having a critical mass of historians that can bully all the SC Here at Multitude, new episodes are available every Wednesday. Look for them wherever fine podcasts can be found. Next to those podcasts, like on a lower shelf is American Medieval. And probably also this guy sucked. So go give it a listen and check out americanmedievil.com to learn more. Hey, again, it's Claire, if you spend any time online, which I'm sure you do, because that's how you're accessing this podcast, then you've probably heard of HelloFresh. They're the number one meal kit in America and they make home cooking easier with chef crafted recipes and fresh ingredients delivered straight to your door. And they've totally revamped their offerings. This isn't the Hellofresh you remember, it's bigger. They've doubled their menu with 100 meal options every week and recipes from around the world. It's healthier with over 15 special high protein meals each week and dishes packed with more vegetables than ever. And it's tastier. Steak and seafood options are delivered for no extra cost and hearty seasonal recipes also include a variety of seasonal produce, leeks and broccolini and Italian eggplant. Between my book, academia and the pod, I currently am working crazy hours. So I'm being very genuine when I say that having Hellofresh has made my life a lot easier. Just because I don't have the time or energy to grocery shop or come up with recipes anymore. I use it and I genuinely recommend it. The best and easiest way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com TGS10FM now to get 10 free meals plus a free breakfast for life. One per box with active subscription. Free meals are applied as a discount on the first box for new subscribers only and it varies by plan. That's hellofresh.com TGS10FM to get 10 free meals and a free breakfast for Life. Save over $200 when you book weekly stays with VRBO this winter. If you haven't seen your college besties since, well, college, you need a week to catch up in a snowy cabin. Take a week long vacation and save over $200. Book now@vervo.com.
- [47:40]
B
Okay, so this exhibit, it was kind of horrific in certain ways because there's a tiny little room that talks about, you know, slavery and Napoleon in the Caribbean, but it's called the American Dream. It says Le Reve American on the wall. And then all around the exhibit, like near the ceilings are Napoleonic phrases. And again they're like, I love Egypt. It's like, yes. Where you also led a massacre.
- [48:07]
A
Yeah. Where you invaded that Egypt.
- [48:10]
B
Yeah. Like, and then you abandoned your troops. And I will say the strangest thing about the exhibit was they had the movie. I can't remember what. I looked it up at one point because there are so many Napoleon movies, but they had a movie and it was depicting Napoleon's forces invading Russia. And remember the snows of Russia. And in this movie, all you see it's super eerie, is just French soldiers plopping down, dying in the snow, like. And so you're hearing the sound of their bodies hit the snow. And I'm looking around going like, this is your hero. Yeah, the man who abandons his troops on fields and saves himself. Like, it's crazy. And that's before you even get to again, as you mentioned, all the terrible things he does, you know, in the Caribbean. And you know, for me, someone who studies Henri Christophe, this callousness about the child, which it's just so indifferent because when the French try to figure out what happened, so there are records of this, they're like, oh, he died. Like, what happened then? As you get further into the records, and this is all still under Napoleonic rule. They only care because they believe that Henri Christophe has given his child a lot of money and treasures to pay for the schooling and his housing. And they want to know where it is so that they can confiscate it. And they want to know if someone has stolen it so they can get it back. Because it was evidently quite a large sum because he had sent him there with his aunt and to pay for the schooling and their housing and to live. And so you just think, oh, it's all just sums and dollars. That's it. People have a dollar sign above their head in this world. And to this man.
- [49:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, I can't stop thinking about this exhibition that you're talking about, where they, even the things they're including work against the narrative. Right. And I also, I wanted to talk about the film and TV and book InterPR of Napoleon. Because, for example, in this most recent was a Ridley Scott film or whatever that came out a few years ago. Where are the calling? You're in Prussia in it, you're at El. But like you say, this is another film where people are dying in the snow. And like, where is Saint Domingue? Like, where is Guadalupe? Where are all these places that are very much also a part of his story? Where are those in all of this?
- [50:20]
B
You know, and there was chance to do it because Napoleon's first wife, Josephine is from Martinique.
- [50:26]
A
Sure.
- [50:26]
B
Like, there was an opportunity to write it into the story, to show her reactions to this. Because, you know, Josephine is a very interesting historical figure. She actually, in the era before Napoleon, decides to send troops to reinstate slavery on Saint Domingue. So he sends his brother in law, Leclair, who is married to his sister, Napoleon's sister, Pauline Bonaparte. So he sends him, initially with 30,000 troops to the island. So this is late 1801. They arrive in 1802. But before doing this, Josephine counseled Napoleon not to do it. She said, the island is peaceful now. Toussaint Virtue is in charge, and he has revived the plantation economy. And using the euphemism with free hands, which. It's a little more complicated than that. It wasn't a totally free labor system, but it wasn't chattel slavery. People weren't being bought and sold anymore. And it's true, the plantation economy was being revived. And she told him, don't do it. Keep Toussaint there. And like the idiot he was, he doesn't listen to her. But actually, on his deathbed, you know, people confiscated his papers and everything. And afterwards, he acknowledged. He didn't acknowledge that Josephine was right, because that would have caused him to have to acknowledge many things. Like, he abandons her since she can't have babies anymore and trades her in for a new wife. But he says, you know what? I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have. That was a mistake. Invading Saint Domingue. But he didn't say it was a mistake to reinstate slavery on Guadeloupe and Martinique. It's his mind was, I could have still profited. Yeah, that's how I read that.
- [51:59]
A
Absolutely. I wrote something down here on this Napoleon, he expresses this regret, but he regrets the loss of the colony.
- [52:06]
B
Yes.
- [52:07]
A
Not the restoration of slavery. Right. Like, he calls it his great administrative mistake when he's on St Helena after the Haitian defeat, because he gets. Also. We didn't talk about. He gets defeated by the Haitian army. So that's a big part of this story, is he gets wrecked by them, basically. He calls this a great administrative mistake, but when you look at it, he's referring to losing France's richest colony, losing the chance to rebuild a profitable Caribbean empire, because he was. He at this point, also is obsessed with creating this new Atlantic empire to rival the British. So that's part of this. He sees this as an imperial project. And then he underestimated disease logistics, because, again, he constantly is underestimating these things, underestimating disease, logistics and the strength of the Haitian army. His regret is strategic. It's not an ethical regret.
- [52:54]
B
No.
- [52:55]
A
You know, so there's still this desire to rehabilitate this and say, well, on his deathbed, he feels bad. And again, you know, maybe this is youth talking or whatever, but I don't actually care if someone feels bad when they die because they shouldn't have done the thing in the first place.
- [53:08]
B
And it's too late.
- [53:09]
A
Most people know not to enslave someone, right? And at the time, people like, okay, to add to this, I made this little chart when I was looking at this because I was like, can we directly draw a line between things he said he was about and things he was clearly not about? So like, when you talk about him as seeing himself as an heir to the Enlightenment, because he did see himself as this like, person who is, you know, inheriting all these Enlightenment ideals, but only for some people, his colonial policies are truly the opposite. So like liberty re enslaves tens of thousands of people. Equality reinstitutes racial hierarchies, fraternity declares genocidal wars against black revolutionaries. Civilization commits colonial atrocities. Why would you take him at his word on any of these things? Historically, that's wild.
- [53:55]
B
And not only that, but like his reputation as being this heroic soldier who fights with his troops in battle. Except not in the Caribbean.
- [54:03]
A
Well, yeah.
- [54:04]
B
Where's the place? He won't show up. He's a coward. He shows up in the snows of Germany or Prussia and the Battle of Wagram. He's far from home. He's in immense danger. Right. In societies he doesn't understand at all. And yet he from an island, from Corsica, he who's been to Egypt. But he will not show up on Saint Domingue and fight. He doesn't show up on Guadalupe where he also has to send troops to reinstate slavery. So it's not like, oh, you know, slavery, they snap their fingers. It happens. No, they gotta go and blow people up. Literally actually blow them to smithereens in on Guadeloupe to reinstate slavery.
- [54:41]
A
Slavery.
- [54:41]
B
It's terrible.
- [54:42]
A
He's either a coward or he sees them as so far below him in personhood, in humanity, that attending this is worth his time. Both of those are bad. Like, both of those views are bad.
- [54:55]
B
And he also knows, I mean, his brother in law, Leclair, who he sent, dies of yellow fever on Saint Domingue. Like he's getting reports. So, yes, I think there's two parts to it. I think that probably both of those things are true.
- [55:09]
A
True.
- [55:09]
B
He's terrified. And part of that terror is because he doesn't think that they're human.
- [55:14]
A
Yeah, right.
- [55:15]
B
And so he knows that they're engaged in kind of warfare that is not the same kind. Like they're not going to stand on a line and you fire and we fire.
- [55:23]
A
Oh, no, no, no, no.
- [55:24]
B
They're going to surprise you.
- [55:25]
A
Sure.
- [55:25]
B
They're going to be, because they are in an ardent fight for freedom. And when they say liberty or death, they mean it. It is not a pretty slogan.
- [55:32]
A
Well, because not being liberated is also death. So it's not. I don't mean, like, what do they have to lose? But I mean, like, they either die enslaved or they live free or they die free. But either way, two of the three outcomes involve death, one involves freedom. So you would try for that.
- [55:52]
B
Absolutely.
- [55:53]
A
I also was thinking about some of the framing on this. Like, even now. Not as much now, but I'll say now, meaning the 20th century, early 21st century. You'll see both European and American writers portraying Napoleon as this civilizing hero or this civilized hero. And invariably alongside that, in order to create this narrative, you have a foil, which is this sort of, like, barbarous black revolutionary who they're fighting against. And it'll be like, well, maybe the liberation struggle is reasonable, but they're still doing it in a way that should feel terrifying. Right. And what that is ultimately is just this sort of, like, white supremacy that you're disguising as this, like, genteel European enlightenment universalism stuff. But, like, it still ultimately ends up working in Napoleon's favor and not in favor of these people who are seizing their freedom. And it is very strange to see that still be replicated over and over and over again, you know, because you can go and fight in Prussia where it's civilized. Right. You know, where the fighting is. It might be brutal because everyone flipping dies. Truly, everyone dies in it. But at least they did it wearing fancy uniforms and, you know, shooting from a reasonable distance, you know.
- [57:16]
B
Yes.
- [57:17]
A
It just makes me. I don't know. It's. I'm saying I don't know a lot, but this is all so frustrating to me. And there's no real answer for it other than, like, our society is spoiler alert for everyone, just built on white supremacy. And that includes the histories that we tell. Like, that is the histories that we have available to us. And there are people like you who are working very hard against that. But that's. We have hundreds of years to try to either work against or reinsert a new narrative into. And that's a very, very difficult task.
- [57:46]
B
It's going to be more difficult now.
- [57:48]
A
Well, yeah, it sure is.
- [57:50]
B
Especially, you know, 2026, the whole American Revolution at 250 thing. Because I'm seeing resurface some of these narratives. Because when you were talking about the kind of civilized battle. Right, right. I was thinking about the way that the British characterized how the American patriots, quote, unquote, engaged in war, which was at the time. They were like, it's not civilized. They don't have uniforms. They're, like, ambushing us. They thought it was, but because there wasn't a white supremacist angle attached to that, that would endure through the centuries. Now it's the greatest freedom struggle on the planet or whatever. But the Haitian revolutionaries, who also didn't have proper uniforms, especially in the beginning, had to steal all their weapons, had to engage in non conventional, quote unquote warfare, were brutes. There's even pieces now saying that the Haitian revolutionaries are the ones who committed white genocide. It's crazy to me.
- [58:40]
A
If anyone ever says white genocide in front of me, I lose my mind.
- [58:44]
B
It's on Wikipedia, honestly. Like, I have to pretend it doesn't exist so that I can get through my scholarship, like, because it makes me so mad. And we've tried to change this article before, but there are people who watch that page.
- [58:55]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [58:56]
B
And if you change things, they'll change it right back.
- [58:58]
A
Of course.
- [58:58]
B
Their investment in making sure that Haitians committed white genocide on Wikipedia is, like, so strong. I don't even know.
- [59:06]
A
This is such a digression, but it always makes me think of. This isn't a digression. The thing I'm about to say is a digression. But there's a podcast that I used to listen to that I thought was, like, amazing, called Bodega Boys. And it's these two comedians, Kid Marrow and Jesus. Nice. And one of their running jokes was that they had a metal band, like, a metal band only by black men and men of color called White Genocide and that.
- [59:30]
And. And they would used to, like, sing songs, and it just. No, it's just, like, the funniest thing ever. I don't know why I can't hear the. Because it's so ridiculous to me. Like, the concept is so ridiculous to me that I can't hear it without thinking of this stupid, like, gag that was, like, this bit that was going on in this. In this podcast.
- [59:47]
B
No, we have to laugh or we'll cry. Because it's so ridiculous that it almost doesn't seem real. Like, Europeans commit hundreds of years of genocide on this island. The Haitian revolutionaries fight back, and they're the genocidal maniacs.
- [60:02]
A
They're the bad guys. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I also. For people who are listening, if whenever I Teach like one of my Holocaust survey classes. Because I'll often get like, tapped to do the history of the Holocaust class or whatever, I always start by being like, we need to talk about the history of genocide. We will certainly not be starting with the Holocaust. Like, we need to start. A lot of times I'll start with chattel slavery, because that will be the thing that people feel most like, that they know the best already. Already. And be like, how have you not thought about this as genocide? And why have you not thought about this as genocide? And you have to understand this in order to understand all these other things that also happen afterwards. But it is it. Some of these things are so ridiculous. And on the white genocide thing, which is also people are going to listen to this and be like, how have we gotten here? But on the white genocide thing, even now, because you're seeing this insanity about people saying that there's a white genocide happening in South Africa and you are seeing, seeing white South Africans now being like, everyone needs to chill out. This is not happening. Like, you're seeing white South Africans being like, absolutely not. This. Everyone has gone too crazy with this. It's not real. In real time, we're telling you this isn't real. And you know it's bad. You know it's bad and fake. When the people who would ostensibly have benefited from this narrative are even being like, you guys need to calm down.
- [61:15]
B
Like, it's taking it a step too far.
- [61:17]
A
Yeah, everybody, we've. We've jumped a shark on this a little bit. So, yeah, I don't know where a good place to end this episode is other than we hate Napoleon. And I hope everyone has come out of this knowing more both about the pre Napoleonic context of the places that he attempted to, in some cases, successfully re enslaved other places, attempted to re enslave, but also that you emerge being like, wow, there is a global Napoleon that a lot of people are forgetting about and that is very frequently forgotten about. Is there anything else about Napoleon that you want to make sure people know and understand in order to properly despise him?
- [61:56]
B
Yes. I want to read a quote, please, from a 19th century writer named Julien Prevost. He was the Comte de Limonade in Henri Christophe's administration. So just to give you a sense, he wrote these words in 1814, so the Napoleonic sort of legacy as a cure was already in force. And this is what he said to counter that, he wrote, whether or not Napoleon has the qualities of a great man hardly matters to me if he has done great things, so be it. He extended and receded the limits of his empire. Still, what interest can I take in his greatness, in his glory, even None. I see and want to see in him only the enemy of my country, who through his agents covered it with ruins, blood, dead bodies and wreckage.
- [62:46]
A
He is also officially the enemy of our podcast. I just add to that. Thank you.
- [62:52]
B
This is now my favorite podcast in the world.
- [62:54]
A
That is a wonderful place for this to end. Thank you so much. I did not need any convincing on this one, but thank you for coming on it and talking with me about Napoleon. For people who are listening, you can check out Marlena's website at Marlena TV and get yourself a copy of the first and last King of Haiti at the link in our episode description. And I think that's it.
- [63:16]
B
Thank you.
- [63:20]
A
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of this Guy Sucked. A member of the Multitude Podcast Collective, this episode was hosted by me, Claire Aubin, featuring special guest Marlena Doubt, and edited by Julia Sheffini. All of our theme music was written and produced by Insert Nice thing here Marshall Dean Williams. If you'd like to support the show and get access to all episodes, including two extra episodes per month, and access to our full archive of episodes, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or to our patreon@patreon.com this guysucked. See you next week.
- [63:59]
B
Ra.