Podcast Summary – This Guy Sucked Episode: Ovando Hollister with Megan Kate Nelson
Host: Dr. Claire Aubin
Guest: Dr. Megan Kate Nelson
Date: April 2, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of This Guy Sucked dives into the complicated life and legacy of Ovando James Hollister — a little-known 19th-century figure whose contradictory beliefs and actions help illuminate the muddled moral world of western expansion, the Civil War, and American myth-making. Host Dr. Claire Aubin welcomes historian and author Megan Kate Nelson to discuss Hollister's journey from Shaker upbringing, through abolitionist ideals, to becoming a staunch proponent of indigenous extermination and anti-Mormon activism. Together, they unpack how personal and regional identities feed into historical myth and why even those with seemingly progressive values can be architects of exclusionary and violent futures.

Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Western Identity and Myth-Making

[Timestamps: 01:21–11:39]

• Both Claire and Megan discuss their experiences as “Westerners” now living on the East Coast, and the persistent hold of Western regional identity.
• Megan describes how the feeling of being “from the West” is physical and perceptual—the “high and dry,” chapped lips, the magnitude of the landscape.
  • Quote: “You know it when you feel it, instead of seeing it really. And so, the West for me is the high and dry: when your lips start getting chapped, your breathing gets a little more difficult...that’s how you know you’re moving into a different region.” – Megan [06:49]
• Discussion about balancing objectivity as a historian when writing about a home region steeped in myth.

2. Navigating Complicated Historical Legacies

[11:44–18:58]

• Claire praises Megan’s books for confronting and complicating the narratives Western kids grow up with—“pioneer mentality” included.
• The conversation centers on the dilemma of writing about your own place—how insider experience can both clarify and challenge historical interpretation.
  • Quote: “Do you need to be from a place in order to write about it, or does that make it more complicated? Are you not able to be objective if you are too embedded in that place...?” – Megan [05:08]

3. Introducing Ovando Hollister

[11:48–17:49]

• Megan introduces Ovando Hollister, unknown to most except niche history nerds.
• Flamboyant background: Born 1830s, family joins the Shakers, raised with practical education, chooses to leave as a young adult.
• Early abolitionist ideals; later legacy is deeply problematic.
  • Quote: “He develops a very anti-Indigenous stance that is very pro-war and pro-Native extermination...You find a lot of these people in mid 19th-century America who simultaneously argue for abolition of slavery and potentially Black equality at the same time that they are arguing for the extermination of Native people.” – Megan [15:57]

4. Chronological Deep Dive: Hollister’s Trajectory

A. Shaker Roots and Kansas Migration

[18:45–29:49]

• Raised in a Shaker enclave; chooses to leave at maturity; moves to Kansas in the 1850s, likely driven by abolitionist sentiment and family connections.
• Kansas of the era: Epicenter of “Bleeding Kansas” abolitionist/pro-slavery conflict.

B. Colorado Gold Rush and Civil War

[29:49–39:59]

• Hollister heads to Colorado during the Gold Rush, forms powerful connections (e.g., bunking with Samuel Curtis, see [29:50]).
• Joins the 1st Colorado Volunteers—a Union regiment—in the Civil War; overt abolitionist, yet later becomes a proponent of anti-Indigenous violence.
  • Claire: “Often this gets whitewashed...that everyone who does this is good and they’ve joined for good reasons and they want good things...But also they do a lot of terrible things, particularly in the West, especially their relationship to Indigenous groups...” [39:38]

C. Post-War Journalism, Boosterism, and Anti-Indigenous Crusades

[44:32–57:38]

• Owning newspapers in Colorado, Hollister amplifies white settler boosterism and becomes an advocate for policies of Native removal and violence.
• Quote: “Really at this point, Hollister embraces the Republican Party’s vision for the West, which is a white West of settlement and development and production. And he’s all in.” – Megan [49:16]

D. Anti-Mormon Activism & Utah Politics

[58:39–72:34]

• Hollister moves to Utah, takes a federal tax collector job (via marriage ties to Grant’s VP, Schuyler Colfax).
• Wages an anti-Mormon campaign focused on polygamy and women's oppression (“mansplainer” tendencies), while seeking federal dominance over Utah.
  • Quote: “He was definitely a mansplainer...This is what we’re going to do. This is the vision for Utah...it does not include Mormons or their wives, and it does not include the Ute or the Paiute or any...native people whose lands these actually are.” – Megan [68:29]
• Little tangible concern for Chinese laborers or their rights, despite benefiting from their work on the railroads.

5. The Problem with “Problematic”

[17:49–18:58, 53:17–57:38]

• Hosts discuss how “problematic” isn’t just a value judgment—it’s a literal problem for understanding Hollister, because his life contains irreconcilable contradictions that require reckoning, not dismissal.

6. Reflections on Historical Responsibility and Legacy

[72:34–73:54]

• Hollister’s exhausting career as a hater: dies before the federal government “conquers” the LDS Church; legacy as a myth-maker, propagandist, and cautionary tale.
• Quote: “He’s important for us to think about, to think about how, again, historians and writers have power...that we shape the way people see the world. And can shape policy, in fact. And people need to use that responsibly.” – Megan [73:13]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “You can’t libel the dead.” – Claire [00:15]
• “Do you ride your horse to school?” – Megan (recounting East Coast perceptions of Westerners) [02:03]
• “This is one of those things. It’s really hard to separate yourself and kind of tease out...all of the strands of what the mythic West is and not kind of buy into it yourself and feel romantic about it all.” – Megan [07:34]
• “All research is me-search—sometimes they’re saying it with derision, sometimes appreciatively...” – Claire [08:17]
• “And then he embarks upon a life as a writer and a booster in Colorado. This is where he starts to suck a little bit.” – Megan [16:16]
• “He’s both from the East and of the West. He’s an abolitionist but also believes in the extermination of Indigenous peoples.” – Claire [51:57]
• “Ovando, I thought you might be different...but really at this point...he just embraces the Republican Party’s vision for the West.” – Megan [48:55]
• “He was definitely a mansplainer.” – Megan [68:29]
• “You gotta live like someone’s going to make a podcast about you.” – Claire [73:54]
• “He’s a little stealthy. He’s a stealthy guy who sucks.” – Megan [75:15]

Segment Timestamps for Reference

• 00:00–01:21 – Show intro, episode context, and guest introduction
• 01:21–11:39 – Western identity, personal and regional meaning, the mythic West
• 11:44–18:58 – The difficulty and value of writing about your place; what’s problematic about “problematic” subjects
• 18:45–29:49 – Hollister’s early life: Shaker upbringing, Kansas migration, family dynamics
• 29:49–39:59 – Colorado Gold Rush, Civil War, Hollister’s abolitionist positions
• 39:38–44:32 – Overlooked history of the Civil War West
• 44:32–53:17 – Hollister as writer, myth-maker, white nationalist booster; contradictions deepen
• 53:17–57:38 – Specifics on Hollister’s anti-Indigenous writings, Sand Creek Massacre, Jim Beckwourth
• 57:38–61:47 – Moves to Utah, anti-Mormon agitation, impact on migration & policy
• 61:47–68:29 – “Mansplaining” liberation, racism, religious roots, complex legacy
• 72:34–73:54 – Tired, frustrated end; long-range consequences of myth-making
• 73:54–75:15 – Reflecting on the value of complicated subjects; closing thoughts

Summary & Conclusion

Ovando Hollister emerges as a deeply contradictory figure whose life story acts as a microcosm for the West’s tangled moral legacies. As a man who believed in abolition and Black equality, yet championed Indigenous extermination, anti-Chinese exclusion, and anti-Mormon persecution, Hollister “sucked” not simply by modern standards, but within the very contradictions of his time. Megan Kate Nelson and Claire Aubin unpack why even seemingly “good” historical actors contributed directly to shaping an exclusionary and violent West, and how the power of myth—in writing, politics, and policy—remains as important to interrogate now as it did then.

Essential Takeaway:
Ovando Hollister “sucked” in stealthy, complicated ways, demonstrating how myth, media, and boosterism can turn even a reformer into a perpetrator of violence and erasure. History’s “problematic” people are a problem to solve, not simply to cancel—and understanding their contradictions sharpens our understanding of both the past and the enduring myths that shape the present.