← This Guy Sucked
Loading summary
Transcript55 lines
- [00:00]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Hi there, it's Claire. If you're hearing me, that means you're listening to the free preview of one of our Patreon episodes. We switch off every week between free and Patreon exclusive episodes. So if you'd like to hear the rest of this conversation, head over to patreon.com thisguysucked and join our honorary Haters club. A list of sensitive themes and topics covered in this episode can be found in the episode description. Welcome to this Guy Sucked the show, where we prove that it's never too late to have haters and you can't libel the dead. I'm your host, Dr. Claire Aubin, and I'm a historian, writer, and most importantly, certified haters. On this show, we talk about people from throughout history with legacies that need a little updating. Whether it's because of their politics, their behavior, or their impact on society and culture, these guys actually kind of sucked. And we bring in a new scholar every week to tell us why. With me today is Dr. Chance Bonar, who is an advising fellow at the University of Virginia. He's got a PhD from Harvard in religion with a focus on the New Testament and early Christianity. His research focuses on religion and slavery in the ancient Mediterranean and the early history of Christian anti Semitism. And he has a book coming out this month, August 2026, called Go Slavery and early Christianity. So thank you so much for coming on and welcome to the show.
- [01:31]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Thank you so much for having me. Looking forward to it.
- [01:33]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Okay, so we always do like a little bit of pre show patter so that people understand that you're like a person, not like a robot that I just talk to about this. And usually I ask a question like what would you study if you weren't a Christian antiquity historian or something? But I decided to needlessly make this more difficult for you, which is I'm going to give you a list of early Christian authors and I need you to sort them into the following online personality types because I think too often this is also wild. This is I. None of this is going to make sense, but whatever. I think too often when we look at people from 1,000, 2,000 years ago or obviously further back than that, it's very easy for us to sort of imagine them as having utterly different personalities, utterly different experiences of the world, of humanity, et cetera, than our own. When I think people are basically just people, they just react differently to the environment around them. So I feel like people can all be categorized into either podcaster, Twitter, poster, blogger, or tiktoker are. Are the four personality types. So I'm going to give you a list of early Christian thinkers and see what kind of online person you think they would be if they had access to the Internet.
- [02:51]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Let's do it.
- [02:53]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Okay. So sorry if I pronounced any of these wrong. Firstly, Ignatius of Antioch.
- [02:58]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Yes, Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius would be. Oh, my gosh. I think he would fall mostly into the blogger category. This is just. Ignatius is a guy who's, like, writing a bunch of letters to people even as he's, like, literally being arrested and taken to Rome to be martyred. He's like, hey, so don't worry about me at all. Just let me die. I want to be crushed like wheat for God. I feel like he's someone who just kind of, like, sends his messages out into the world, whether or not anyone's listen.
- [03:25]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Okay, next. And I do know how to pronounce this guy, because this is one of the few people that I know about Augustine of Hippo.
- [03:32]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Augustine, my boy Hippo. Augustine's hard because he's so damn prolific. Right? This guy is doing everything. But that also might be why I feel like podcaster works really well for him, because, like, he's doing biblical commentaries. He wrote the goddamn City I got. He's trying to one up Plato, and whether or not you think he's successful at it. And his Confessions, right, where he's just, I ate a pear and now I feel horrible because I've sinned. I feel like he falls into that category. This may also be my own trauma, because in undergrad, I had a professor who, like, an early Christian history class was like, oh, yeah, we're going to get started. If you haven't read Augustine, just read the Confessions over the weekend, which is a horrible thing to do to any sophomore in college. You cannot just pick that up.
- [04:18]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Yeah, terrible. And I will also say we, like, three sentences into this, have already used the phrase the goddamn City of God, which is like, we were like, straight. Straight into blaspheming. Okay, next up. Also, this. That was a read on what podcasters do, which is like, give our thoughts all the time. Like, just. Just do random stuff and are like, look, this is my job. I'm theorizing, actually. Okay, next one. Justin Martyr, AKA Justin the Philosopher, AKA Justin Timberlake.
- [04:47]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Yes, of course. Justin. My boy Justin is. Oh, this is hard. Justin's kind of a Twitter poster, in a way. He wrote, like, fake dialogues between Jews and Christians so that he could win an argument about who's better, Jews or Christians.
- [05:01]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Who won?
- [05:02]
Dr. Chance Bonar
I mean, you can guess who won based on what he wanted. Yeah, but like, you know, that feels like something that, like especially people that are still on the thing that we are being asked to call X. This feels like something that's, you know, fitting. Like, you know, it's just like a. You're having a one sided dialogue with an imaginary enemy that doesn't actually exist and you've just kind of made them up.
- [05:23]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Okay.
- [05:23]
Dr. Chance Bonar
And same goes for his apologies where he supposedly writes like these defenses of Christianity to the Roman state. Who the hell knows if they actually ever read them?
- [05:33]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Okay, next one. I don't know if I'm going to say this one right. Irenaeus. Irenaeus of Leon.
- [05:38]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Irenaeus.
- [05:38]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Irenaeus got it right on the first try. Hey.
- [05:41]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Yeah, Irenaeus also. Oh gosh. So I feel like Irenaeus falls somewhere between Twitter poster and at time Tiktoker. Mostly because this is a guy who is most known for just like blathering on about his opponents in ways that don't really make sense if you not aren't in on the group. Like he'll make fun of people for thinking that everything is sacred. And he's like, what do you think this cucumber is sacred? Is that what's really important to you? And it feels like it fits well for either like just like creating extremely long threads on Twitter or like short form TikToks where he's just like, this is heresy number one. This is heresy number two as he's just like making his different. You know, he would also do good on Instagram reels. I could see that paying off.
- [06:25]
Dr. Claire Aubin
So someone that I would mute expeditiously is what I'm hearing.
- [06:29]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Yes. Yeah.
- [06:30]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Okay, last one. We have a gigantic list, but I'm only going to make you do. Actually we'll do two more. This one. I know I'm saying it right. John Chrysostom.
- [06:37]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Everyone has different pronunciations. I do. Chrysostom.
- [06:39]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Son of a bitch.
- [06:40]
Dr. Chance Bonar
But it's Chrysostom. It's John. Just call him Johnny.
- [06:44]
Dr. Claire Aubin
John.
- [06:45]
Dr. Chance Bonar
So Johnny is. Johnny is like right wing conspiracy post blogger. This is a guy who, for example, like one of the articles I've written on this guy before was his. He wrote an eight part sermon series called Homilies against the Jews where he just complains because all of his. I know the anti Semitism.
- [07:06]
Dr. Claire Aubin
A classic.
- [07:06]
Dr. Chance Bonar
A classic. The sad thing is it truly is a classic in early Christian literature because he gets so mad at Christians in his congregation because they're going to synagogue. And he's like, excuse me, these are different religions. And of course, his congregants are like, really? I mean, there's nice stuff over at the synagogue. So he feels like someone who's like, actually blogger, but in the sense of like a substack blogger, like, but like a right wing angle in that, like, he's definitely, like, he has his audience that he wants to gain traction with, and it becomes really popular in that way.
- [07:40]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Okay, last one. And this is just because I think this name is really funny. Jerome.
- [07:45]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Jerome, yes. Jerome also falls under podcaster, partially because he. It's hard because, like, he's the guy who, like, makes the Bible accessible in Latin for the Latin west, right? So he's like, he's kind of an important figure, but he's also an absolute ass. So he has, like, his niche of the podcasting world that listens to him and is interested in what he's doing. Best way to describe him is like, someone who, like, has like a. A conservative turn after being shunned from, like, you know, an Ivy League university and is like, I'm gonna use my prestige to, like, gain popularity and get a platform. He kind of falls into that category for me.
- [08:25]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Many such cases. The Jordan Peterson.
- [08:28]
Dr. Chance Bonar
He is the Jordan Peterson where you're.
- [08:29]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Like, okay, so you were working, you were writing all these things. Okay, you had a great job. You took truly a turn for the worse in this. Okay, so you've been put through your paces. That's. It is wild that I just asked you about six different people and you were like, oh, yeah, well, he wrote this and he did this. And okay, so congratulations on being really good at your job. So for everyone at home, because my wonderful partner Ben has not had a cameo in this show for a long time, I just want to make it clear to everyone that this list, which is actually 17 people long, but we only did six of them, was produced by my partner and also partially from. From the Internet. Before becoming a therapist, he was a religious studies PhD guy. And he was so ready to contribute to this that I kept having to be like, okay, that's enough. I don't want any more. Nope, that's enough. No, thanks. The list is long enough. And so, you know, other honorable mentions are Origen of Alexandria, Athanasius of Also Alexandria. Everyone's in Alexandria. Basil, the great. Clement of Rome, Polycarp. I was like, brother, I have never heard of any of these people that.
- [09:36]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Might be a Pokemon.
- [09:37]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Who knows at this point, Polycarp okay, let's get into what we're here for today. Who are we talking about or who are you talking about?
- [09:46]
Dr. Chance Bonar
We're talking about Tertullian of Carthage today.
- [09:50]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Okay, so before we talk about him, I said this online, but I had never heard of him before in my entire life. Before you responded to the invitation email saying that's who you wanted to talk about. And I was like, yeah, great, that sounds amazing. And then was like, googling, type, type, type, type, type, type. Who the fuck is Tertilian of Carthage? People who know or have followed me for a long time will know that I started my PhD in Edinburgh's history, Classics and Archaeology school and ended it in the Divinity school because my PhD supervisor was in Jewish studies, which is often sort of like bounced around and shared between departments or put in a school that it kind of fits in or kind of doesn't fit in. So I ended up in Divinity, despite having nothing to do with religion in my research. So looking at my cv, one might think I know basically anything about religion and theology, when in reality I know nothing outside of the context of far right Christian, American Christian, religious stuff and the origins of Christian anti Semitism, which is why I knew about Augustine. But other than that, I know nothing. So this is going to be fun for me and for everyone at home. Enjoy an episode where I will almost certainly sound stupid repeatedly in it, because we all, everyone deserves to have that. For all of you, I've got the basic facts of this guy down, but I'm very ready for you to tell me what they mean. Firstly, is he a podcaster, poster blogger, a tiktoker, is the question.
- [11:03]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Okay, this is so hard because, like, I feel like he fits all of these categories in different ways. I mean, to fit the theme of the show. He's kind of a hater that can switch between platforms depending on what audience he's trying to reach. But he really does. I mean, actually, no, he's a podcaster with. If I had to choose one. If you've got into my head, choose one. He's a podcaster, but he has a following of like three people, but, like, puts out an episode a day for them and kind of acts as though everyone in the world is listening to him, but actually it's just like him alone in a room.
- [11:36]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Okay, okay, I can see that. So on that basis, what is Slash? Was Slash? Should he be famous for? Like, probably a lot of people will not have heard of him. That's just my guess. I might be wrong. Will not have heard of him. But what are his major contributions to the world at large and Christianity in general?
- [11:55]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Sure. So Tertullian, Carthage. He's this guy who's born sometime in the middle of the second century, dies sometime in the early part of the third century from the city of Carthage, which was at the time a Roman province of Africa. And probably what he's most important for is that he's kind of one of our earliest writers in Latin that's kind of within the early Christian tradition. So sometimes he's called, like, the Father of Latin Christianity or the Father of Western theology. This is a guy who, like, is a predecessor to bigger names after him in kind of the Latin West. People like Augustine, who we've talked about, or Cyprian, another major bishop coming out of Carthage. So he's kind of a couple centuries earlier than them, is kind of the one that kickstarts Roman, African theological discourse in Christianity. And this guy becomes so important in part because he's part of the people who are starting to formulate the idea of the Trinity in Christian thought. He really contributes, and we could save this for later, but, like, contributes to Augustine's concept of original sin, the idea that there's something that's kind of passed down from person to person, from Adam all the way to today, that makes us inherently sinful. So this is a guy who, even though, like, a lot of people haven't heard of him unless you've done, you know, graduate work in early Christian studies, this is a guy who, you know, has impacted the lives of billions of people because he's been influential in kind of the background of kind of influencing Western Christianity.
- [13:20]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Yeah. And for people living in the contemporary west, which most of the people listening to the show are like, people who influence early Christianity are influencing your life right now because of the way that that has filtered down through time in Christianity and in this, especially people living in, like, the US or the uk, which is where the majority of our listeners are living. Like, Christianity as a force enormously shapes the life that you live. Even if you are not Christian, are not raised in something like that. The way that it shapes your country means that it impacts your life every day and you might not even sort of be aware of it. So people like Tertullian are, you know, have been dead for the better part of 2000 years and still have an enormous impact on the world that we're living in, even if you've, like, never heard of him in your life, like me. So he is born at Some point between 155 and 160 CE. ISH. This is one of the wilder parts of when I'm doing research for episodes with people who work on things that are like, in the ancient period. Because I'm like, what the hell do you mean? You don't know when he was born or when he died? You say ish, 155 to 160 ish, and then he dies at some point between 220 and 240. So he's either 60 or 80 when he dies. Yep.
- [14:39]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Yeah, we have no idea. It's just like, you know, we know the point at which he's kind of like flourishing and writing a lot. We know some people that he's engaging with. We have some like, stories about him written down by people in like the 4th and 5th centuries. But like, can we really rely on those? You know, it's like us telling stories about Washington or Jefferson today. Like, hell if I know if you know, if we'd be making up stories about that are actually accurate about them.
- [15:01]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Yeah. And I think it's also a sort of thing where it's about the years that they're active, if that makes sense. Right. Like when there isn't like a database of when people are born and died. Right. Like that you can go on ancestry.com and look up when that's not like a widespread in that way. I mean, you just kind of have to rely on when you know, they're writing things or have reliable information regarding their interactions. But There is a 20 year period here, especially at the end of his life, where we're like, yeah, maybe. Yeah, possibly. Which I think is funny. Looking this up was like all these different dates. I kind of thought, okay, here's ish, the beginning, ish, here's the end, ish. And then in the middle, who knows? But yeah, he is born into a pagan family. It's possible, what I saw online, that his father was like a Roman centurion or held some sort of official post.
- [15:53]
Dr. Chance Bonar
We get that from Jerome. Jerome says this and we're like, yeah, maybe his dad was part of the Roman military in Africa.
- [16:00]
Dr. Claire Aubin
A little unclear also for people at home who are like, where is Carthage? It's now in modern day Tunisia.
- [16:05]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Yes, yes.
- [16:06]
Dr. Claire Aubin
If you're curious about Carthage, right next to Tunis, there are some really interesting books written on early Christianity in Africa that are like, really fascinating, by the way, for people at home who are curious about this.
- [16:18]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Yes. And when we're talking about Africa. Right. We're talking about like the Roman province of Africa. So not like the entire continent, but like just like this northern part. That's mostly what today is like Tunisia and Algeria. So Roman Africa is like. Yeah, just this northern part.
- [16:30]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Yeah, absolutely. He clearly, from like his writing and from what some other people have kind of said about him, receives a very thorough education in rhetoric and in law. He trains as a lawyer, is a very accomplished rhetorician. Rhetoric. Rhetorician.
- [16:46]
Dr. Chance Bonar
I guess so. Rhetorician. Orator. Is a good orator.
- [16:49]
Dr. Claire Aubin
We'll go with that. He's accomplished orator, unlike myself. But key to this is that he converts to Christianity. So he is a convert. And we know they say no zealot like a convert. He converts to Christianity around 190ish CE.
- [17:08]
Dr. Chance Bonar
Yeah, sometime in his 30s, maybe his early 40s. So he's very much an adult convert and he acts like an adult convert. And the other thing about him is this is a guy who. He calls himself a Punic among Romans. So he seems to understand himself to have some kind of indigenous African or Berber ancestry that he doesn't seem to be just someone whose parents came from mainland Italy and were part of just the colonizers. He seems to also have some African roots that come up sometimes in his writings.
- [17:40]
Dr. Claire Aubin
Oh, that's interesting. I did not know that. And I think it's also for people also at home. His name is Tertullian, AKA Tertullian of Carthage, but also Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, which is really a Roman name. I will.
- [17:54]
Dr. Chance Bonar
It's a very, very Roman name. Right. He has all the parts of the name right there.
- [17:58]
Dr. Claire Aubin
All of them. Thanks for listening to this preview of a Patreon exclusive episode. To subscribe and listen to it in full, head over to patreon.com thisguysucked.