Episode Overview

Podcast: This Guy Sucked
Episode: The Orientalists with Rhiannon Garth Jones (Subscriber Preview)
Host: Dr. Claire Aubin (A)
Guest: Dr. Rhiannon Garth Jones (B), Teaching Fellow, University of Leeds
Air Date: December 4, 2025

This episode explores the problematic legacy of “The Orientalists”—Western scholars in the 19th and early 20th centuries whose studies of “the Orient” were deeply entwined with colonialist ideology, imperial politics, and lasting cultural impacts. Dr. Rhiannon Garth Jones, whose research focuses on early Islamic art, material culture, and cross-cultural connections, joins Dr. Claire Aubin to dissect who the Orientalists were, why they “sucked," and how their ideas still reverberate in academia and the wider world.

Main Themes and Purpose

• “Updating” Historical Legacies: The series’ core conceit is to scrutinize historical figures whose reputations need revisiting—from admiration to deserved criticism.
• Orientalism in Context: This episode focuses on “Orientalists,” especially those active in art history, archaeology, and anthropology from the early 19th to early 20th centuries, showing how their academic pursuits often furthered imperial aims.
• Continuing Impact: The discussion highlights how Orientalist worldviews and institutional frameworks continue to shape modern understandings (and misunderstandings) of the regions formerly labeled “the Orient.”

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. “What’s Your Roman Empire?”—Obsession and Academic Fixation

[01:48–05:33]

• Dr. Aubin and Dr. Garth Jones relate the meme of “everyone has their Roman Empire” to the historian’s tendency to view everything through specific academic lenses—such as taxation or textiles.
• Dr. Garth Jones: “I think an awful lot about, like, what’s commonly called Byzantium—sky quotes—or like, what I would just call the Roman Empire, actually, because that’s what they call themselves. …And I also just think constantly, all the time about, like, textiles.” [02:45]
• The conversation humorously acknowledges how passions “bleed” into daily thinking and students’ work (“I have succeeded in textile-pilling”). [05:00]

2. The Structure and Legacy of Orientalism

[06:41–09:09]

• The hosts clarify they are discussing “a group episode,” focusing on Orientalists collectively rather than a single figure.
• Dr. Garth Jones: “The three I want to talk about are…sympathetic…and nuanced. But they do also suck. They suck hard, in my opinion.” [07:04]
• Orientalism is described as a professional field arising amid European imperialism, with roles in museums, universities, and, crucially, imperial administration.

3. How Orientalism Worked—and Why It Sucked

[09:09–12:41]

• Orientalists approached “the Orient” as an unchanging, essentialized entity—a society with a “constant sort of, like, societal personality.”
  • Dr. Garth Jones: “They’re obsessed with this idea of civilizational hierarchies…Is this Eastern or Western? Which direction does the influence go in? Which society is better…more worthwhile for the government to engage with?” [09:32]
• Their work was inseparable from government and military interests: mapping, planning, and sometimes directly enabling colonial conquests.
• The hosts stress how Orientalist perspectives still structure whose histories and knowledges are valued.

4. Defining the Field—Institutions and Academic Pathways

[12:41–16:42]

• Dr. Aubin explains the rise of Orientalist institutions, starting in the 1820s-1840s alongside European imperial expansion:
  • Establishment of formal chairs in Arabic, Persian, Sanskrit, etc.
  • Creation of “Orientalist societies” in Paris, London, and America.
  • Orientalist became an academic profession: journals, conferences, and government funding.
• Training focused on classical texts, philology, biblical studies, comparative religion, and archaeology—primarily through a Western lens.
• The problematic and slippery definitions of “Near East,” “Middle East,” and “Far East” highlight the Eurocentric logic underlying the field.
  • Dr. Garth Jones: “Historically, the Near East is…basically the Ottoman Empire, because that’s where you would get first by train or by boat…But now those terms are quite interchangeable…and [can mean] literally anything.” [15:14]
  • Dr. Aubin: “What are you saying the regional relationship is here other than the people are brown and may or may not have a certain relationship? Because I think that’s really how you’re categorizing this.” [16:11]

5. Orientalism and Military–Imperial Frameworks

[16:22–16:42]

• The hosts point out the close historical connection between Orientalist scholarship and imperial military intervention.
  • Dr. Garth Jones: “It’s really defined by like, kind of military intervention and imperialism actually. Like, who do we feel okay in a certain framework invading is actually kind of the definition.” [16:30]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Claire Aubin [02:28]: “In fact, chill. Everyone needs to chill.”
• Dr. Rhiannon Garth Jones [03:08]: “Textiles is the economy. Textiles is craft. Textiles is power.”
• Dr. Claire Aubin [04:03]: “Oh my god, everything is taxes.”
• Dr. Rhiannon Garth Jones [09:32]: “They’re obsessed with this idea of civilizational hierarchies and relationships…which society is better and therefore, like, more appropriate for us to have an interest in.”
• Dr. Rhiannon Garth Jones [16:30]: “It goes back to this thing. Like, it’s really defined by like, kind of military intervention and imperialism actually. Like, who do we feel okay in a certain framework invading is actually kind of the definition.”

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|--------------------------------------------------| | 01:48 | Roman Empire meme/Obsession in historical study | | 03:08 | Textiles as a lens for understanding history | | 06:41 | Introduction of the “Orientalists” as a group | | 09:09 | Defining Orientalist worldview and structure | | 12:41 | Historical context for institutional Orientalism | | 15:14 | Geographic definitions and the “Near East” | | 16:30 | Orientalism’s role in justifying imperialism |

Tone and Style

The tone throughout is spirited, irreverent, and deeply informed, blending scholarly critique with conversational humor and contemporary cultural references (“textile-pilled," “everything is taxes,” “it’s all Freud”). Both speakers emphasize the seriousness of Orientalist legacies while modeling approachable, self-aware academic discussion.

Conclusion

This preview episode offers a clear, dynamic unpacking of Orientalism—not just as a discipline, but as a set of attitudes and processes embedded in Western power structures. Dr. Aubin and Dr. Garth Jones lay a strong foundation for understanding why challenging the legacies of even “interesting and nuanced” scholars matters, both to history and the present. Their examination leaves listeners primed for a deeper dive into specific figures and impacts in the full episode.