15 Lies Women Are Told At Work with Bonnie Hammer | 330

Summary

Summary of "15 Lies Women Are Told At Work with Bonnie Hammer | Episode 330"

Podcast Title: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Host: Nicole Kalil
Guest: Bonnie Hammer, Vice Chair of NBC Universal
Release Date: July 28, 2025
Episode Title: 15 Lies Women Are Told At Work

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Introduction

In Episode 330 of This Is Woman's Work, host Nicole Kalil engages in a candid conversation with Bonnie Hammer, Vice Chair of NBC Universal and author of 15 Lies Women Are Told At Work. The episode delves into the pervasive myths that hinder women's professional growth and offers strategies to overcome them. Bonnie Hammer brings her extensive experience in the entertainment industry to shed light on the unrealistic expectations and false affirmations women often encounter in the workplace.

Dismantling Harmful Lies

The Impact of "Follow Your Dreams" ([02:34])

Bonnie Hammer critiques the well-meaning but ultimately misleading advice to "follow your dreams." She explains that many women base their career aspirations on fantasies shaped by childhood, fairy tales, and external influences rather than real-world experiences. Hammer emphasizes the importance of being open to opportunities:

"When we're young, you can't dream what you can't see and you can't dream what you don't know. So we start with very false dreams that are based on fairy tales, superhero movies, and what our parents whisper in our ears." ([03:03])

Instead of rigidly adhering to predefined dreams, Hammer advocates for a flexible approach, allowing women to explore various roles and adapt as the job market evolves, especially with the advent of AI and changing economic landscapes.

Rethinking "Know Your Worth" ([07:37])

The phrase "know your worth" is commonly touted as empowering, yet Hammer identifies it as a double-edged sword. While inherent self-worth is undisputed, translating that into professional value requires active effort:

"In the work world, you have to earn your worth. Just because you show up doesn't mean you are worthwhile. You have to basically prove that you have the right attitude, you're willing to learn, you're going to work hard." ([07:45])

Hammer underscores the necessity of not only recognizing one's value but also strategically demonstrating it through actions, understanding company dynamics, and effectively negotiating for raises and promotions.

Navigating Professional Relationships

The Myth of "Having Friends in High Places" ([20:35])

Contrary to the popular notion that knowing influential people guarantees career advancement, Hammer argues that meaningful mentorship trumps mere networking. She differentiates between superficial connections and "challenging mentors" who provide honest, constructive feedback:

"Forget about people in high places. Find challenging mentors who are going to push you, who are going to teach you, who will be your devil's advocate... they are pushing you to do better and be better." ([21:50])

Hammer highlights the importance of mentors who are invested in personal growth rather than opportunistic relationships aimed solely at climbing the corporate ladder.

Honest Feedback and Its Complexities ([22:40])

The conversation shifts to the challenges women face in receiving genuine feedback at work. Hammer points out that fear of being labeled as abusive often stifles honest communication:

"People are so afraid to be honest and direct for fear that they'll be called abusive, as opposed to they were just giving good advice to help grow somebody." ([23:03])

She encourages women to view critical feedback as a tool for professional development rather than personal attacks, fostering a culture where constructive criticism is valued and utilized for growth.

Embracing Female Strengths in a Male-Dominated World

"It's a Man's World" ([28:18])

Hammer addresses the misconception that certain workplace qualities are inherently masculine, asserting that traits traditionally associated with women—such as empathy, collaboration, and caretaking—are powerful assets in professional settings:

"The empathy we have, or being a caretaker, caring about other people, the trust that we have because we are family raisers and we take care of others all the time, are incredible qualities that... create stronger teams, more capable teams, more trusting teams, more loyal teams." ([30:00])

She challenges women to recognize and harness these strengths, which contribute to more effective and harmonious workplaces.

Balancing Professional and Personal Responsibilities ([30:40])

Hammer also emphasizes the remarkable ability of women to juggle multiple roles, especially highlighted during the COVID-19 pandemic. She praises the resilience and efficiency women demonstrate in managing both professional duties and personal responsibilities:

"Working women were still the ones responsible for the homes, still responsible for the meals... juggling everything at the same time." ([30:29])

This adeptness not only showcases women's capability but also serves as a foundation for building successful and balanced careers.

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Bonnie Hammer effectively unpacks several of the 15 lies women are told at work, providing insightful commentary and practical advice on navigating and dismantling these misconceptions. Her emphasis on earning one's worth, seeking challenging mentorship, embracing inherent strengths, and valuing honest feedback offers a roadmap for women striving to build authentic and fulfilling careers.

Nicole Kalil wraps up by encouraging listeners to engage with Hammer's book for a deeper exploration of these topics, framing it as a "mentor in your pocket" for ongoing professional guidance.

"The lies we're told at work don't sound like lies. They sound like guidance, like wisdom... but the real wisdom, it's messier, bolder. It challenges instead of comfort." ([32:08])

This episode serves as both a call to action and a source of empowerment, reaffirming that redefining "woman's work" involves rejecting outdated myths and embracing truths that pave the way for genuine success.

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Learn More:
For additional insights and resources mentioned in this episode, visit nicolekalil.com.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Nicole Kahlil]

I am Nicole Kahlil, and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast.

[Host]

And today that work looks like grabbing.

[Nicole Kahlil]

A sledgehammer, or in this case, a Bonnie Hammer, and leveling the lies that women have been told at work. Because we've been fed a lot of.

[Host]

Cliches dressed up as empowerment.

[Nicole Kahlil]

You can have it all. Fake it till you make it. Good things come to those who wait. Cute, catchy, and wildly unhelpful when you're navigating pay gaps, glass ceilings, or your.

[Host]

Third meeting of the day where somebody else explains your own idea back to you.

[Nicole Kahlil]

At best, these are empty affirmations that sound good on paper but fall apart in real life. At worst, they're outright lies designed to keep us pleasant, polite, and palatable and just uncomfortable enough to stay quiet. What we really need at work isn't more inspirational fluff. It's clarity, truth, strategy, and a woman who's calling bullshit. So I'm going to keep this intro short because we've got 15 of these lies to dismantle, and I want to.

[Host]

Make sure that we have time to call out as many of them as we can.

[Nicole Kahlil]

So joining me is Bonnie Hammer, vice chair of NBC Universal and the most powerful woman in entertainment. According to the Hollywood Reporter, she started her TV career picking up dog poop on the set of a children's show and then went on to run the cable division that brought us suits, psych, Mr.

[Host]

Robot, and so many more.

[Nicole Kahlil]

She's been called the queen of cable.

[Host]

By the New York Times, and her.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Book, 15 Lies Women Are Told at Work is a no BS guide to building a career on your own terms by rejecting the myths that hold us back and replacing them with the uncommon sense that that women need to succeed. Bonnie, welcome to the show. And I think the best place for us to start is with some of the lies that you think are doing.

[Host]

The most damage to us as women at work.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Well, first of all, I'm delighted to be here and I love your podcast and I think you're doing an amazing job in the industry and for women, period. That said, asking me to choose which of my 15 lies are the most harmful for women is like asking me to choose my favorite child. It's really difficult because they all are invalid. And if you buy into the cliches, earnest and self sabotage to what the world is like. But these days there are a couple of things I think are very, very important. I think most of us have been brought up to believe that we should be following our dreams. And then if you don't have your dream job, you're not succeeding. The reality is when we think about where these dreams came from, they're from our childhood, they're not from real experience in the real work world. I'm a big believer in following opportunities. And the more open you are to opportunities, the more possible it will be to find a dream job later in your life and your career that actually fits. Because when we're young, you can't dream what you can't see and you can't dream what you don't know. So we start with very false dreams that are based on fairy tales, superhero movies, and what our parents whisper in our ears. And when you follow or take those jobs, the other thing that's happening a lot right now, especially for the younger kids that are coming out of college, they're grunting at grunt work. They don't understand that you have to earn your worth at work. Just because you've gone to college, you've gotten a degree, doesn't mean you've earned that dream job or that perfect opportunity. So just take anything that's out there and prove to the next employer that a you're willing to work, you have a positive attitude, you could stay at a job, you can raise your hand and ask questions and, and grow. That's really what it's all about.

[Host]

When you were talking, I was reminded of it's pretty old. It was an Elizabeth Gilbert talk that she did on the Oprah network and she talked about the hammer versus the hummingbird. And basically the hummingbird is somebody who learns about their purpose or their mission via experiences they kind of go from opportunity to opportunity and collect nectar. And that's how they figure out who they are, who they want to be when they grow up. I put in air quotes because what.

[Nicole Kahlil]

You said is so true.

[Host]

The amount of people who think they want to be what their parents are or what they've experienced in their narrow set of circumstances growing up, it's hard.

[Nicole Kahlil]

To know what you actually want to.

[Host]

Do until you experience it.

[Bonnie Hammer]

You can't. You can't. Just because you took an interesting course in college doesn't mean that's what you want to do for your life's work. You have to understand who you are. Are you an introvert, an extrovert? Do you want to be around people? Do you want to be siloed and alone at home? All these things come with life experience. And I do believe in this hummingbird analogy because the more things you can learn and pick up and experience and. See, my analogy is what you want to do, rather than climb a ladder is basically create a spiderweb. You want to go to the right, to the left, up and down so that you have this vast, incredible net of things to fall back on. Because as we know, the world is changing. Jobs are being restructured, right? Restructured right now because of what's going on in the economy. AI is coming in and going to take over a lot of different aspects of the workplace. So what you may be trained in and what you think your dream job is, may not even be there. Think about all the young kids who learn coding because parents said you have to learn computer science, you have to learn how to code. It's gone. AI is going to take that over. So those who mastered that, but with little else, experience, where are they going to go?

[Host]

One of the things that's hard about that lie, follow your dreams. And many of the others that you have in the book is they sound really good. So I want to address a few that I know I'm guilty of saying myself or believing myself and sort of poke holes into them. So a few come to mind. But let me start with this one.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Know your worth.

[Host]

That sounds great. And we're told that very often as women, we've got to know our worth. Where is the lie?

[Bonnie Hammer]

The reality is we all have personal worth. We are born with it. And no one can should take that away. That is just law, if you will. But in the work world, you have to earn your worth. Just because you show up doesn't mean you are worthwhile. You have to basically prove that you have the Right attitude, you're willing to learn, you're going to work hard. You have to earn that worth. Now, later on in your career, assuming you've proven yourself, you, you raise your hand, you say yes, you have the right attitude, you succeed. There's a difference at that point in terms of putting your having the confidence to be able to say, you know, I expect a raise at this point. But again, the expectation is different from a earning that raise and knowing how to ask for it, as opposed to assuming it's going to be handed to you or, or you demanding it. You can't be entitled. It has to come out of the right way. You approach the right way. You read your boss the right way, you read a room to allow that to happen naturally and organically. Again, it's not just because you earned it. You have to figure out the best way to get it from the specific person who needs to say yes.

[Host]

Okay. There are a lot of components of that. I think first what I heard was we are inherently worthy and valuable as human beings. But that doesn't translate to we're inherently worthy and valuable in our workplace or to make a crap ton of money, that we have to both prove ourselves but also figure out what are the best ways, what does the company need, or what are the most important aspects of your career.

[Nicole Kahlil]

I think one of the things we.

[Host]

Do as women, trying to prove our worth or trying to prove ourselves, is we say yes to everything and we end up minimizing or diminishing our worth because we're doing things that are like volunteer projects that don't have a high connection or high correlation to the company's core goals or values.

[Bonnie Hammer]

I'm on the fence on that one because I do believe if you take advantage, whether it's a volunteer situation or a work situation or a project, in some ways you think may be beneath you. Taking advantage of each of those situations, getting to know the people around, really, in a sense, exploiting even the smallest situations you're in somehow down the road lead you to something else. You, if your eyes are open and if there's an opportunity there. So even in those situations where you've known you've taken a step back, at some point you're going to realize that did lead you to something else, whether it's a skill set, person you met, an opportunity that became available. So I'm kind of open to that in terms, but in the back of my mind, making sure I'm aware of what's around me, I think one of the weaknesses women tend to have is the ability to read the room and to read people. And I think the best way to navigate businesses, regardless of what profession you're in, is learning how to read that room when you walk into it. Learning how to read your boss. I went through, I think was seven or eight different corporate changes, eight different bosses, and every single time the change happened, the boss and the culture were a 180 from what I had before. A lot of my colleagues and buds just really complained and bitched about, oh my God, here we go again in the person's a turkey. This is ridiculous. They don't know what they're doing. Instead, I sat back and tried to figure out, okay, what are their values? Are they creatives who only care about fabulous content, or are they bottom line people? Are they people who are going to take a look at the budget and they don't care how good a series is? It's all about the bottom line. It's understanding who I'm working for at that moment and delivering to them in a way they understand. Which doesn't mean I'm not going to still make great content, but it's how I present what I want to do in a language that they understand. Because if I'm talking to them in the same way, if, you know, talking to a very dealer was very different from talking to a Steve Burke. Talking to Steve Burke was very different from Jeff Zucker. So all of the different bosses I had, I had to understand what their values were in order for me to succeed, but also for me to get my team to deliver what they were going to respect.

[Nicole Kahlil]

So I'm interested in this.

[Host]

I want to dive in a little deeper because I would imagine, well, I'll speak for myself, but I would imagine a lot of people listening in would guess that women are better at reading a room or have greater instinct or have been so others focused that we pick up on social cues a little bit better.

[Nicole Kahlil]

But you're saying the opposite.

[Bonnie Hammer]

No, no, I'm saying not that women don't do it. They can read the room, but they view some of what they find. You know, the warmth, the consideration, the ability to do that as a weakness rather than a strength. They don't understand or appreciate how powerful it is. You're 100% right. The EQ, the, you know, emotional intelligence is far greater and they can be far more collaborative, but they don't often give themselves credit or have the confidence to then use it. But they are there observing, but they don't take that observation and act Gotcha.

[Host]

So using that information, you used the word exploiting earlier and I'm going to say that as a positive. Right. Like we have this unique ability or this talent we should be leveraging at a high level.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Correct. But again doing it in a non entitled, non cocky way. There's a huge difference between confident and. And cocky. Self assured versus self entitled. And that's what every, whether it's male or female, but in particular women have to understand. There's a huge difference in those words. And you can be confident without being cocky. Cocky is going to push people away. Confidence is going to get you your. Yes.

[Host]

Yeah. I often say cockiness or arrogance is basically a mask for a whole host of insecurities. So.

[Bonnie Hammer]

So hundred percent right.

[Host]

Confidence I define as firm and bold. Trust in self. It's understanding who you are, what you bring to the table, those types of things.

[Nicole Kahlil]

One of the things that I do.

[Host]

Say a lot about confidence is trusting yourself. But one of the lies that you address in the book is trust your gut. Let's talk about that. Where is the lie in trust your gut?

[Bonnie Hammer]

I believe you have two brains. You have a brain in your head and you have a brain in the stomach. And when the two are lined is when you are in a sense cocksure that the decision you're going to be making that's right in front of you is the right decision. You know, I believe in the ABCs of gut which, you know, it's everything from finding the foil who basically can help you make the decision or devil's advocate. But looking at the facts, evaluating, doing everything you have to do to prove that that brain in that stomach, the physical gut and the brain somehow come together. When they do, it's really hard to make a horrible mistake. You still may, but at least you know you've thought it out to such an incredible degree. I'm a big gut. I do trust my gut a lot. But I have forced myself to take a step back and do a lot more analysis before I just go. And I think I learned a lot of that from some challenging mentors.

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[Nicole Kahlil]

Yeah, I think when.

[Host]

We talk about trusting our gut, especially when it comes to business, that's not meant to be at the sacrifice of data, strategy, information, collaboration. It doesn't work in a professional environment. If we just go, well, this is how I feel, right.

[Nicole Kahlil]

So I really like and agree there.

[Host]

Are those two brains and understanding in which situation you can rely on one or the other. But in business there is more likely to be a situation where you need to rely on both.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Now that's very true and I'll give you one quick example. We were about to greenlight a show which we love the writer, we love the talent. We thought it was very of the moment, but it did not necessarily fit on USA because it was darker than some of our shows. This was Mr. Robot with Rami Malek. Everything about it from the analysis and you know, our audience structure, everything said, this will not work on usa, but our guts, the developers, my team and I believed it would. So we looked at everything, but we decided, decided consciously to go against that and trust our gut. But we still did the research to get there. Every now and then you have to just go with that. But having done the research, at least we could say after the fact, well, we basically broke our own rules. We went with our gut, but at least we know why or how we did it and we still chose to act. It was very conscious. And it's one thing when you go with your gut but don't have the conscious background of knowing that it's likely it won't work. But we're still. Because it's so good. We're going to go ahead anyway. It's a different kind of analysis.

[Host]

Yeah, I love that example because it's not trusting your gut in the absence of other information. It's having the information and then making the conscious choice.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Correct, Correct. Yeah. And that goes back to what you said earlier. That's a form of rather. Rather than cockiness. That's confidence. You're making decision with your team after collaborating and doing the research and having the confidence still to say, yes, we're going ahead. Green light.

[Host]

Love it. Okay, let's talk about the lie of having friends in high places. We hear a lot of versions of this, right? It's not what you know, it's who you know where is the problem or the lie in, like, the knowing people in high places.

[Bonnie Hammer]

I think people believe that if you know people in high places, there's a ladder in front of you. They're going to help pull you up along the way. And my attitude is have friends in all places because you never know where you're going to meet, who you're going to speak to, who's going to end up being in a high place at some point. But to just make sure you take advantage of all the people around you. But more importantly, the people who are going to teach you how to grow, and in a sense, if there were a ladder to climb that, or if they were a spider web to maneuver your way around, are a certain kind of mentor that I think this generation and also unfortunately, HR doesn't like. Either are what I call the challenging mentors. These are the people who are truth tellers. These are the people who put the tough in tough love. These are. These are the people who will challenge you and say things to you that might not feel good, but they are really trying to push you and show you you are capable of stuff that you don't believe you are even capable of. And I'm a big believer that forget about people in high places. Find challenging mentors who are going to push you, who are going to teach you, who will be your devil's advocate, your sparring partner, your drill sergeant, who's going to kind of not only get you ready for the battlefield, but help you win the war, because they are pushing you to do better and be better. Unfortunately, these days, because of how human resources has been run, you can't even get an honest review, oftentimes from your boss, because people push back from bad. You know, basically saying, that hurt. That was negative feedback. I grew up on negative feedback. And after a While you realize they're not trying to hurt me, they're not nasty people, they're not terrible. They're trying to help grow me. And once I understood that, I survived some really, really challenging, challenging mentors.

[Host]

Okay, I want to dive into this a little bit deeper because I think it's so, so, so important. There are a few things at play here. First, I'm curious your thoughts on this. I have a belief that women especially are given less honest feedback at work, that I don't want to hurt their feelings or, you know, worrying about our emotions.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Or do you believe that to be true?

[Bonnie Hammer]

I do believe it, but I think it's more complicated than that. It's not only people not wanting to hurt your feelings. I think in a world now where so much has been done and said about abusive behavior, that people are so afraid to be honest and direct for fear that they'll be called abusive, as opposed to they were just giving good advice to help grow somebody. And especially if the boss is a guy and it's a woman employee, it's very, it's very difficult these days. And I think even if certain guys want to give honest advice, they really respect the people they're giving it to. They're not often trained in a way to give that advice, which is hard and tough, but in a kindness where somebody can absorb it and they're not just going to run to HR and say, you're not going to believe what he said to me. And I think on the other side of it, I think the women to woman thing is complicated. And I think sometimes it's the same thing. They don't know quite, quite how to articulate tough advice to other women. But unfortunately, I also see another side of this, of women not necessarily liking to bring up other women with, you know, relatively few seats in that C suite, that I often think women, it gets very complicated because it becomes competitive and then it becomes negatively competitive because if there's only one seat at the table, they're going to want it. So if they really grow somebody who becomes a competitor, where are they? And I think that's awful. I think the more of us in C suites, the better. The more of us that pull, you know, really grow other women and bring women along with us. So much better.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Couldn't agree more.

[Host]

We had a guest maybe a year or so ago who talked about the concept of ampleship, publicly supporting and promoting the work of other women and how important that is for us, all of us, to get more and better seats at the table. As opposed to this competitive, there is only one slice of pie and we're all going for it, you know, type of approach. Another thing that you said that I want to circle back on is this.

[Nicole Kahlil]

I think, knowing where somebody's coming from.

[Host]

When they're being a truth teller, are they doing it because they care about you, or they want the best for you, or because they see potential in you, or because they see the role you play in, you know, what you're trying to accomplish?

[Nicole Kahlil]

There's a difference between challenge and cruelty.

[Host]

And I do think that there is.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Fear, legitimate fear that challenge will be perceived as cruelty. And I do think we as women.

[Host]

Need to be careful that just because.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Our feelings are hurt doesn't mean it was cruel.

[Bonnie Hammer]

You're 100% right. And I tell that to so many of the women that I've mentored that just because somebody's going to tell you something that hurts your feelings, they are not trying to hurt you. They're trying to prepare you for the real world. They're trying to help grow you. So don't just assume when something doesn't sound right, it's for negative reasons. It's more often than not, they're really trying to help you to grow you. And again, I think sometimes it's stylistic, the way the information is given, but we've been brought up to knee jerk against anything that doesn't feel right and just assume somebody is just trying to be a jerk when more often. I'm not saying that there aren't situations where that exists, but I honest, I honestly believe it's rare because they're taking the effort to sit down and talk to you to begin with. There's a reason they're trying to grow you. They're trying to have you do better for the team at large. They want to win as a whole team and make everybody bigger. There's so many positive reasons why, but the knee jerk is to, oh, my God, person's being an ass. I'm going to hr. I'm going to go tell hr. That's not a healthy attitude.

[Host]

Yeah. I'm also reminded, I don't even remember when many years ago, somebody gave me the advice when you get feedback and you, it's uncomfortable or you don't like it to respond with something to the effect of thank you for telling me the truth as you see it, or thank you for sharing your truth with me, or something along those lines. Because what we're saying is we want to encourage people to be truth tellers. We're Reminded that everybody's truth is a matter of perspective, unless they're sharing facts. It's a matter of opinion or perspective. So we're acknowledging that.

[Nicole Kahlil]

And it also buys us a little.

[Host]

Time to process the feedback. I have found my first reaction to feedback is usually the worst reaction. And so just buying myself a little time to sit with it can be really helpful. Bonnie, I cannot let you go without asking you about lie number seven in your book, It's a Man's World. Talk to us about that.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yeah, especially when I started media broadcasting was very much a guy's world to the point that the only reason I went into cable was, was because it was almost impossible at that time for a woman to navigate her way through broadcast tv. But I'm a big believer that it's man's world only if you let it be. Meaning we have so much in our DNA, in our chromosomes that set us apart from guys that just. We need to take advantage of. And if, when you just look at what oxytocin does in our systems in terms of empathy, collaboration, being a caretaker, these are things that unfortunately too many women view as weaknesses, when in fact, the empathy we have, or being a caretaker, caring about other people, the trust that we have because we are family raisers and we take care of others all the time, are incredible qualities that if used well and right, create stronger teams, more capable teams, more trusting teams, more loyal teams, which not only get the job done better, but it's also a hell of a lot more fun. And unfortunately, the warmth, the collaboration are often viewed as weaknesses by women to other women and by guys about women, when in fact I find them the most incredible traits in terms of creating really hardworking, incredibly successful teams. So my thing is, you know, you can say whatever you want, but if you have a great team put together with some strong women on it, they'll. They can just take off with great success.

[Host]

I could not possibly agree more. I also think too, of all of the skills and characteristics that we're told.

[Nicole Kahlil]

That people are looking for in their.

[Host]

Leaders and their cultures. Empathy, transparency, vulnerability, like these are things that women absolutely bring to the table.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Juggling everything, you know, if you think about, especially if you're a working mom, juggling everything to get everything done and still showing up and still winning at work and still having a healthy family no matter what. Even during. If you think about during COVID working women were still the ones responsible for the homes, still responsible for the meals so many of us were doing, juggling everything at the same time. And we don't give each other enough credit for doing that and how successful that is in a work environment, in.

[Host]

A life environment, how capable we are, it's just incredible. Bonnie, I could talk to you all day. And I know we didn't even get to half of the lies, so I'm gonna let our listener know.

[Nicole Kahlil]

You can find more information in show.

[Host]

Notes, all the ways to find and follow. Bonnie.

[Nicole Kahlil]

But for the love of all things holy, go get the book 15 lies women are Told at Work.

[Host]

And while you're at it, pick up an extra copy.

[Nicole Kahlil]

We have a lot of women graduating.

[Host]

From college or starting new jobs and.

[Nicole Kahlil]

New careers and new industries.

[Host]

And I, for one, wish I would have had something like this starting out and today as well. So, Bonnie, thank you for being with us today and for writing this book.

[Nicole Kahlil]

And for helping us to see the.

[Host]

Truth in our careers.

[Bonnie Hammer]

My pleasure. This is fun. And I view the book as basically mentor in your pocket.

[Host]

I love that.

[Nicole Kahlil]

Thank you. Okay, friend, here's what's tricky. The lies we're told at work don't stay sound like lies. They sound like guidance, like wisdom. Like someone's doing us a favor by reminding us to know our worth or follow our dreams. But it's not helpful if it doesn't work and it's not empowering. If it keeps us stuck and it's not the truth, if it asks us.

[Host]

To shrink, to wait our turn or to strive for perfection. The real wisdom, it's messier, bolder. It challenges instead of comfort.

[Nicole Kahlil]

And it asks us to let go of who we and everyone else thinks we're supposed to be so we can finally become who we're meant to be. Letting go of the lies and leading.

[Host]

With truth, well, that is woman's work.