Aging Out of F*cks (Your Confidence Upgrade) with Ellen Scherr | 394

Summary

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Podcast Summary

This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil

Episode 394: Aging Out of F*cks (Your Confidence Upgrade) with Ellen Scherr
Release Date: March 11, 2026
Host: Nicole Kalil
Guest: Ellen Scherr, licensed clinical therapist & writer (Life Branches)

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Episode Overview

In this candid and empowering episode, Nicole Kalil welcomes therapist and writer Ellen Scherr to discuss the concept of "aging out of fucks"—the liberating shift women often experience in midlife when they stop prioritizing others’ opinions and shed the weight of people pleasing. Underscoring the neuroscience behind this transformation, Nicole and Ellen unpack midlife confidence, the biology of perimenopause, emotional labor, and how women can find power and authenticity as they age, rather than despairing over societal “decline.” This episode encourages women to view this shift not as loss, but as an upgrade.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Neuroscience of “Aging Out of F*cks”

• Estrogen’s Role in Caring & People Pleasing
  • As women age, the decline in estrogen (the "popular girl at the party" as Ellen calls it) impacts multiple neurochemical systems tied to anxiety, anger, emotional labor, and the desire to please others.
  • Quote: “Estrogen’s like the popular girl at the party, and when she leaves, everyone leaves.” — Ellen (03:54)
• The connection between perimenopause, decreased neurotransmitters, and reduced tolerance for "bullshit."
• Women’s confidence increases with age, often surpassing that of men by their 60s.
  • Quote: “Women’s confidence actually increases with age, surpassing men’s for the first time in our 60s. Which is why I fully plan to throw an absolute banger for my 60th birthday.” — Nicole (02:34)

Emotional Labor and Its Burdens

• Decades of Emotional Labor
  • From reading the room to managing others’ feelings, women carry an invisible workload for much of their lives.
  • Quote: “All this emotional labor… What is the cost over our lifetime and why does that start to break down?” — Nicole (10:37)
• The compounded exhaustion leading to a “breakdown” in midlife, accelerated by hormonal changes and self-awareness.

Cognitive Reframing & Neuroplasticity

• Mindset Work in Midlife
  • Ellen emphasizes the power of reframing thoughts to cope with anxiety and shifting self-perception:
  • Quote: “We all have what’s called cognitive distortions. And those are primary ways that all of us think — unhealthy, dysfunctional… But by controlling those… we can control some of the behavior and things going on.” — Ellen (08:18)
• The brain’s plasticity allows us to “undo” automatic people-pleasing by intentionally changing our thinking, although midlife offers a natural biological advantage to this shift.

The Cost (and Consequence) of Always Giving

• Guilt, Growth, and Enabling
  • Nicole reflects on how people-pleasing not only exhausts women, but impedes others’ growth, accountability, and participation, both at home and work.
  • Quote: “I have limited people along the way and enabled people and created codependent relationships and that there was an actual cost not just for me, but for the other people I worked with in my life.” — Nicole (12:41)
• Ellen shares her own story of career change and divorce in her mid-40s, and the guilt that cropped up even as reclaiming her life felt necessary.
  • Quote: “That guilt we feel as women can get so heavy that it prevents us from doing what we really want to do.” — Ellen (15:46)

Taking Risks & Redefining Happiness

• Why Midlife Is a Time for Change
  • Many women hit a point—often in their 40s or 50s—when they are simply “done” being unhappy and move jobs, states, or relationships despite social pushback.
  • Quote: “I was the least happy in my entire lifetime in my 20s, but I also did the least about it because I was so focused on proving and pleasing and performing.” — Nicole (21:28)
• Ellen observes the prevalence of negativity bias in society and how women brave (and often succeed) big life changes anyway.

Navigating Backlash and Social Punishment

• The Double Standard
  • As women assert their needs or set boundaries, they can face being labeled “difficult” or “too much.”
  • Quote: “Sometimes we don’t [know the difference between true feedback and social punishment]. So it’s an issue of, do I want to be my true self or what persona do I want to put out into the world?” — Ellen (25:56)
• Ellen encourages risk-taking balanced with self-curiosity and honest self-assessment. Social negativity rarely matches actual danger.

Practical Wisdom for All Ages

• Can Younger Women Speed This Up?
  • While the biological factors make this shift easier at midlife, Ellen says it’s possible for younger women to challenge people-pleasing and set boundaries — but it takes intention, therapy, and practice.
  • Quote: “Can you manage the people pleasing?… Can you set boundaries?… Yes you can. But we’re never taught how to do that.” — Ellen (30:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Confidence Upgrade:
  “It’s your nervous system choosing honesty over harmony. It’s biology backing up when your mouth finally says what your soul has known for years.” — Nicole (31:53)

• On Being Your Authentic Self:
  “If you have to play that role in corporate America … that doesn’t mean outside of work you can’t be your true self.” — Ellen (26:16)

• On Trusting Yourself Through Change:
  “If we look back at all of our challenges and obstacles … we have a 100% track record of figuring it out. Why? Because we’re still here.” — Nicole (29:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:50 – Ellen explains the neuroscience of estrogen’s role in people pleasing and emotional regulation
• 08:12 – Cognitive distortions and reframing thoughts in midlife
• 10:37 – Costs of emotional labor on women over a lifetime
• 12:41 – Nicole on the unintended consequences of always stepping in for others
• 14:00 – Ellen’s personal story: career change, divorce, and guilt
• 19:50 – The “I’m done” moment: midlife as a catalyst for intentional change
• 23:33 – How to navigate the backlash or judgment that comes with midlife shifts
• 25:55 – Distinguishing legitimate feedback from social punishment
• 29:12 – On women’s capacity to figure things out, even through drastic change
• 30:27 – Can women in their 20s/30s let go faster? (Answer: With effort and support, yes)

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Episode Tone, Style, and Closing

Nicole and Ellen’s conversation is honest, validating, and empowering—equal parts science, storytelling, and humor. The tone is unapologetic: listeners are encouraged to embrace the confidence (and relief) that comes with midlife, and to see the process of “aging out of fucks” as a profound developmental stage, not a decline. Nicole sums it up: “You’re not here to be palatable. You’re here to be you.” (31:53)

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Resources Mentioned

• Ellen Scherr’s Substack: Life Branches
• Connect with Ellen: Website and Substack links in episode notes.

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For all women wondering if they’re “changing” or just becoming more themselves, this episode is a reminder: you haven’t lost your magic—you’ve just lost your tolerance for the unnecessary, and gained an upgrade in confidence.

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Co. No matter how you do game day, on the couch, in the crowd or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in with a full lineup of non alcoholic beer styles. You can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stock the fridge for tip off with a variety of non alcoholic craft styles. Available at your local grocery store or [e-mail] you can near beer fit for all times. This episode is brought to you by Peloton Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq. With real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go explore the new peloton cross training Tread [e-mail]. I am Nicole Kahlil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. Sometimes that work looks like building companies, raising humans, or leading teams. And sometimes that work looks like realizing you physically, mentally and emotionally cannot be be bothered with other people's anymore. And I for one, love when the work looks just like that. I mean, the older I get, the fewer I have to give. Which might be my favorite thing about aging. If losing your tolerance for bullshit is part of the deal, and neuroscience apparently says that it is, well then sign me up. Because somewhere along the way, usually midlife, something shifts. We stop cushioning our words. We stop pretending not to notice what stuff staring us right in the face. We stop managing everyone else's feelings like it's our unpaid side hustle. And suddenly people start asking, are you okay? You're damn straight I am. I'm just done worrying about you and everyone else's crap. We're told that this means we're getting bitter, difficult, batshit crazy. But that doesn't jive with the research. Confidence, for example, tells a very different story. Women's confidence actually increases with age, surpassing men's for the first time in our 60s. Which is why I fully plan to throw an absolute banger for my 60th birthday to celebrate my extreme confidence in having zero fucks left. People will call me crazy and I will not care. And it's not just confidence. There's actual neuroscience behind this shift. So Imagine my delight when I came across an article called Aging out of Fucks that explained this change not as a phase, but as biology, not anecdote, neuroscience. I read it and immediately thought, I have to talk about this on the show. So that's what we're doing. Our guest today is Ellen Scher, a licensed clinical therapist who helps women over 40 rebuild their lives when the old version stops fitting through her substack Community Life branches. She writes honest, cutting, deeply validating reflections on midlife identity, divorce, anger, ambition, and the grief and relief that come with outgrowing your own life. She creates space for women to stop performing strength and start telling truth about aging, about becoming, and about what happens when your brain quite literally runs out of the chemicals required to give a. About what other people think. Ellen, clearly I could not be more excited about this conversation. So let's start here. When women hit this point where they just can't pretend anymore, what's actually happening in the brain? And why does it feel so sudden?

[B]

So what. What happens is the. The neuroscience behind it, Nicole, is that women, we start to lose our estrogen, which everyone knows. But what we don't realize is the impact that has on so many different factors in our brain. And so in one of my posts, you'll see I made a comment that estrogen's like the popular girl at the party, and when she leaves, everyone leaves. Okay? And everyone does leave. I mean, like, at least five major neurochemical systems in our brain that help us to function. So whether that is maintaining anger, anxiety, people pleasing, whatever it might be, all of those chemicals are on its way out. And so we're never really taught to understand that these are actually biological functions that we have no control over. We can pay attention to them, but we don't have control over them. But nobody ever talks about it. And so that's why I decided to write this post of, we get to a certain point and we, the estrogen that was kind of keeping us together as. As, quote, women starts to disappear. So all of a sudden we go like, yeah, I don't think I want to be pleasing everybody anymore. Yeah, and they'll go to Target in my pajamas. I don't give a shit.

[A]

Which I absolutely love, by the way. But so I guess it explains what's happening. But what does estrogen do in our younger years? Is it about social pleasing and conformity? Is it about community and collaboration? What is it that it is having us do in our early years when we have more estrogen? That's like, kind of going away.

[B]

So when we're younger, that estrogen kind of keeps us encapsulated in a little bubble in a way. And so all the conditioning and all the things we're taught as women from a child early on are all kind of protected by this estrogen. Now. Some of us have more people pleasing than others. Some people don't have it at all. So again, a lot of it's, you know, upbringing, life experiences, personality. But when you start to strip away, think about it like stripping away an onion. When you start to strip off off some of those layers now some other things start to happen. And as women, we're like, oh my gosh, what's going on with me? So I, it's funny, I had a client a couple weeks ago and she said, I've been working with her for a while. And she said, ellen, I, I need anxiety medication. And I said, well, tell me what's going on. And she proceeded to name like five different things. And I said, no, that's not anxiety, that's perimenopause. And so a lot of us just aren't aware of all the different changes we really go through. It's getting better. But back when I was going through it, you know, doctors just kind of poo pooed it. Nobody really talked about it. It's like, yeah, it's part of life, deal with it. But we're becoming more educated as women as to really what's going on, not only in our bodies but, but in our brain as, as well.

[A]

Yeah, it is getting better. And I'm about to turn 50 and I will tell you that I feel like most of my symptoms were dismissed or just sort of like, yeah, that's part of the deal. And I really didn't make that connection between more of the mood or behavior or feeling side of it. Like the weight gain. I was like, okay, that makes sense. But I didn't equate it to giving less fucks. Right? So as this is happening, I think a lot of us worry that we're becoming depressed or anxious or bitter or difficult or too much or fill in the blank. What are your thoughts and why is it important to reframe this shift as it's happening?

[B]

So what I'm, I'm recommending that women do is they take a look at where their, their life is currently. We all go through a certain point in our life where we're like, I don't know if I want to do this job anymore, I don't know if I like this anymore or Whatever. We start to reevaluate all these things, probably because we're getting older and we know now we're going towards the second half, so we're paying more attention to it. So most of it is understanding what you're going through and using your thoughts to control what you're going through. And so what I mean by that is we all have what's called cognitive distortions. And those are primary ways that all of us think. Unhealthy, dysfunctional, whatever word you want to use. But by controlling those cognitive distortions, we can control some of the behavior and some of the things that are going on with us at that time. And it's not just for this time of life, but it particularly helps women during this time, since the hormones are just like roller coaster up and down. Yeah. And it's very hard to manage that for yourself, much less other people around you. So you have to start being conscious of what those thoughts are, Whether it's negative thinking, it's doing the what ifs and trying to project into the future, looking, regretting from the past, whatever it might be. You need to start to work on reframing those thoughts for a new chapter in your life. And we know it can be done because scientists uncovered that our brain is neuroplastic. What that means is those automatic connections, let's say, people pleasing connections, they can be undone. It's just a matter of using your thoughts and training your thoughts to undo some of that. We just reach a point in our life when I think we just say, I'm done. You know, I'm just. I'm tired of just saying yes all the time.

[A]

So I clearly am very excited about heading in this direction of stepping further and further away from people pleasing and from everybody else's opinions and from caring about things that I don't actually care about. Seems to me like there is a lot of upside. But I think that there is always upside and downside in every stage and every phase and every thing that we do. So let's talk first about all this emotional labor we have and continue to do as women. The reading the room, the managing the reactions, the softening the truths, the people pleasing, the paying attention, the nurturing the. All this stuff. What is the cost over our lifetime and why does that start to break down?

[B]

Midlife, I think, age, we just. We get. We just get tired of it along with all the other biological changes. But it's difficult when we're in our 20s and 30s, so it's not so easy when you're in the workforce to as a young woman to open your mouth around the table and say yeah, I don't think I really agree with that. So we're kind of conditioned not only from childhood but, but just even culturally, especially in the workforce, to just be agreeable and go along with everything. Then we get older, we get more experience. Now like I said, some of those hormones are changing, some of that estrogen is reducing. And so now you get to the point where you're like, I don't care anymore. I've got an opinion and I'm going to say it, whatever would cost me. But women are so conditioned to be afraid to open their mouth that they just don't.

[A]

Yeah. I'm curious your thoughts on this. As you were thinking. I think like many women I have taken on the lion's share of emotional labor and the extra work, whether that be in the workplace or at home or whatever. And one of the learnings I, I've had that makes me feel better about giving less fucks and not stepping in all the time and not doing all of that labor is a realization that I have limited people along the way and enabled people and created codependent relationships and that there was an actual cost not just for me, but for the other people I worked with in my life. The example I always stepped in and made sure things got done on my work teams. Mm. And I limited people's growth opportunity, I limited their accountability, I limited their learning and leadership or like taking on the lion's share of things at home, I'm actually limiting my partner's ability and capacity to step in as a parent and be a dad and be engaged and make decisions. So I think there are personal costs to us that we get done with. But sometimes as I think about the earlier years, recognizing that there is a cost to everybody involved, somehow it like it makes this feeling of wanting to get there faster, of wanting to give zero fucks faster, not having to wait till menopause. Something about that triggers that for me. What are your thoughts or reactions?

[B]

Well, it's interesting. I got, I got thrown into that point in my life without me unexpectedly. So I had a long term, long time sales career and I got to the point I just hated it. But financially it brought in nice money, helped household, my marriage, kids, whatever. When I was 45, I started and this is kind of typical of a lot of women, maybe not just at this age, but in 40s, 50s, sometimes even 60s. I don't want to be doing this for the rest of my life. And I started questioning what I wanted to do. And so took me a year. I finally decided that I wanted to give that career up and go back to grad school and become a therapist. Was it a big decision? Yeah, major. I had to take out a major student loan. I hadn't been in school in a while, so it wasn't a decision taken lightly. So at 46, I started grad school and two weeks, literally two weeks into the program, my husband, 18 years, decided he didn't want to be married anymore and left. So here I am without any financial support from him or emotional support. I've got an 11 year old and a 15 year old. All of us are devastated and shocked and I'm like, oh my gosh, there's no way I'm going to be able to do this. And luckily I think because I was at that point in my life that I finally said, no, I need to do this for me. So when you talk about the cost, yeah, I've got an 11 and 15 year old at home and I'm at school and I'm studying, but I'm still trying to take them to hockey and all the other stuff. So that guilt we feel as women starts to come into play and sometimes that guilt can get so heavy that it prevents us from doing what we really want to do.

[A]

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[C]

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[A]

I just, I don't know if there's researcher data behind this. I wonder how many women are making big changes proactively and purposely, like changing jobs or ending relationships or whatever, or when it happens to them, approaching it differently than they would have 10 or 20 years previously. I'm curious if there is anything out there about that.

[B]

Most of the women that I work with and I have spoken to over 15 plus years practicing is that they get to a certain point in their life and they're just done. They're not happy. So for instance, I've just been working with a client, 46 I think, and not happy where she's been living. Want to move to a different state. So then go move. She's like, I can't. I got a good job. And you know, and that's the, you know, the Stuff we do, and guess what? We worked it out. She still doesn't know really what's going to happen. I don't either. I don't have a crystal ball. February 1st, she's going to be in her new place in a new state, and she's never been happier. So sometimes we need that little push because our brains have what's called a negativity bias, inherently, every human brain. And so when you talk to other people, which we tend to do, especially as women, to get opinions, it's usually negative. So, of course, when I did that, it was, why would you leave a good sales job? You know, therapists don't make a lot of money. Well, how are you going to do that with two kids at home? It's always negative comments. Even the head of the grad school program, when he interviewed me for the program, said, you do realize you're not going to make as much money in this profession as you did in sales? I said, yeah, I'm very well aware of that.

[A]

Right. I hear you and completely agree from a personal experience that it's like, I'm done not being happy. Right. And that does become often the reason. But what's really curious, at least for me personally, is I was the least happy in my entire lifetime in my 20s, but I also did the least about it because I was so focused on proving and pleasing and performing and all the things. So what I really love about whatever's happening in our brains is that being happy, generally speaking, or not being happy, generally speaking, becomes a good enough reason for us to move for, like, us to do or choose or be something different. Where. And again, I know my experience isn't everyone experience, but all of those things existed in my 20s, but I didn't do anything about it.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's funny you said that, because that is very true, is when we're in our 20s and 30s, we're too scared to. To make those changes. But then we reach a certain point in life and, And I. I do believe it has a lot to do with the hormonal changes going on as well as just reaching that a certain point in life. I mean, men go through a period of midlife changes too, just not to the degree that we do. But the risks become greater. But more women tend to take more risks in midlife than they do in their 20s and 30s.

[A]

Okay, so aging out of fuck seems like all upside to me, but I know that that's not the case. So let's talk about some of the potential challenges or downsides first. The backlash can and might be really real for some people. Whether it's people like going, are you okay? Or deciding that you're difficult or changing and shifting relationships or ending relationships. Talk to us about how to navigate or move through some of that backlash.

[B]

Yeah, when I talk about making the changes, I'm not talking about, know, blowing up your whole life. You know, if you haven't been happy in your marriage for 30 years, okay, yeah, maybe you need to leave it. But I'm not talking about going to that extreme, but at least starting to expand your life outside of. Of that and looking for other opportunities. You know, most women right now in their 60s are. Majority are forming their own companies. And if you look at the women on substat, many women, 70s, 80s, they're writing books, they're doing all sorts of things. They're saying, I don't care what people say. You know, yeah, I'm old, but I still have other stuff I need to get done. It's really important to try to maintain what's right for you. I'm not suggesting everybody go and, you know, change the career if they're not happy or. Plus, you've got other constraints from society. Right now, I talk to a lot of women, unfortunately, that are in their 50s. They're being pushed out of corporate America, and to some degree, the good and the bad is just forcing them to now say, okay, well, I hated that job anyway, so now what do I want to do?

[A]

Yeah, again, anecdotal, but my mom a couple years ago got divorced after 50 years of marriage. I should say my parents got divorced after 50 years of marriage. But. And people are often like, oh, my gosh. And I'm like, it was a long time coming. The difference from my perspective is that my mom finally was like, I can't do it anymore. Nothing actually changed or was different or whatever, other than I think, you know. And again, I'm with you. We're not encouraging everybody to go get divorced or leave companies or make radical changes. It's just curious how this sort of perfect storm happens with perimenopause and neuroscience and all that. So a kind of offshoot of that question is, how do you help women separate legitimate feedback from social punishment? I know there are times where I am, in fact, being difficult. I also know that there are times where society deems me too difficult for breathing. How do I tell the difference?

[B]

Sometimes we don't. So it's an issue of, do I want to be my true self or do I want what Persona do I want to continually put out into the world? So, yeah, when we're at work, there is a certain Persona we have to put out into the world. But I can't even tell you how many jobs I've been fired from from opening my mouth, just making suggestions either. You know, I'm not a team player. I talk too much. I ask too many questions. I couldn't do it didn't work for me. Now, if I had a different personality, yeah, maybe I could have tempered it a little bit more. I could have found ways to deal with it. But it really comes down to your authentic self. Who are you really? Now, if you have to play that role in corporate America because just the way it is, okay, them play that role if that means your livelihood. But that doesn't mean outside of work, you can't be your true self. And that's where women tend to stop. They'll do it at work. They'll put up with everything they have to do. Maybe put up with spouse behavior, whatever, but they don't do anything for themselves. And so my suggestion is be curious. No matter what age you are, just be curious. And by that I mean see what opportunities there are. You know, we think we know everything. We don't know everything. And do some research. Go figure it out. One of my clients yesterday just told me she's quitting her job at a major bank. She hates it, and her dream was always to get a food truck. Yeah, go for it. Right. But again, it also comes down to your. For risk, reward and what kind of tolerance you have for that. So five years ago, I moved to Florida because I got tired of the Chicago winters. And I said to my kids that are adults. Wrong. I said, mom's moving to her happy place. If you want to come see me, fly to Florida. And I took off and I left. Yeah, of course, again, I heard all the negative from friends. What happens if you don't like the weather? Well, but you don't know anybody there. I mean, there wasn't one positive statement. There wasn't one person that said, that sounds awesome. Go for it.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting. It is really that negative bias, right, that you, you talk about. We see all the potential things that could go wrong. I often ask myself, like, what's the worst that could happen? Because that's what my brain defaults to anyways. But then I force myself to ask, what's the best that could happen? And the reality is, more often than not, it's somewhere in the middle. What actually happens. But often leans a little bit more towards the best that could happen. And to your point, like, okay, let's say you move to Florida, you don't actually like it being hot all year round and you don't meet anybody you like, well then you just move again. I mean, that's what I said. Not oversimplifying, but I don't like it.

[B]

I'll move back. It was a one way ticket. You know, it's like I can do whatever I want, but a lot of people don't think about that in, in terms of leading our life. Just like this young woman who's moving to a different state, something doesn't work out. So figure it out. We always seem as women to figure it out.

[A]

If we look back at all of our challenges and obstacles and all the things that have happened in our life, the reality is we have 100% track record of figuring it out. Why? Because we're still here. And I always like to think about that. I don't know how it's going to work out, but I trust myself to figure it out because that I've done and women are doing everywhere we look. Ellen, my last question is obviously I have a lean towards loving this idea of aging out of Fox. I'm super excited about it. My last question for anybody who's listening, who might be in their 20s or their 30s, is, is there any way to speed this up? Is there a way to let go of care less about everyone and everything else, or do we actually have to wait till perimenopause and menopause for it to happen?

[B]

I don't think we have to necessarily wait for perimenopause or menopause, but I think it's extremely difficult to do it when you're younger because our brain is operating differently. We're young, we don't have as much experience, There is more fear involved. There's a lot of other things. But can you temper some of it? Can you manage the people pleasing? Can you manage not giving in and being everybody's emotional sounding board? Can you set boundaries? Can you do those other things? And yes you can. But we're never taught, we're never taught how to do that. And that's part of what I do in therapy is with cognitive distortions and is how do you undo that? There's a reason you're people pleasing. It doesn't just happen out of nowhere. Okay, so why is it happening and how can you change it?

[A]

Well, I am sure people want to learn more of how to do that. So I want to remind our listener that you have a substack called Life Branches. And Ellen also has a website, life branches.com we're going to put the links to both in show notes as well as any other way to follow Ellen that we have. Ellen, thank you for writing this article. I'm so grateful it found me. And thank you for being our guest today.

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Well, thank you. It's a pleasure.

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