← This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
AI, Hiring, and the Future of Work (Without Selling Your Soul) with Katie Fortunato | 395
00:33:23
Nicole Kalil and Katie Fortunato break down AI and the future of work—how to use AI tools like ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude to increase productivity without outsourcing creativity, critical thinking, or credibility. It’s a human-centered conversation about responsible AI, AI in hiring, and the guardrails women need to stay competitive (and stay themselves).
Loading summary
Transcript28 lines
- [00:01]
Katie Fortunato
This episode is brought to you by Peloton Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus, powered by Peloton iq. With real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go Explore the new peloton cross training Tread plus@onepelaton.com It's not just something you made.
- [00:28]
Sponsor Announcer
It's the privilege that you get to work with your hands. It's building something that serves a purpose, proof that you have the grit to keep going. At Timberland, we understand you take your craft seriously, and we do too, which is why our products are built to the highest quality. We put in the work so you can perfect yours with purpose, in every detail and crafted with intention. Timberland Built on craft. Visit timberland.com to shop if you love the show.
- [00:57]
Nicole Kahlil
The best way to keep it going is simple. Share it, rate it, and support the sponsors who support us. I am Nicole Kahlil and you're listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. From boardrooms to studios, kitchens to coding dens, we're here to shed expectations, give our finger to the shoulds, and remind you that however it is that you choose to do this work, that's the right way for you. Because you are always the decider. And today we're diving straight into something that's equal parts fascinating, inevitable, and mildly rage inducing. At least for me. But let's be honest, I'm prone to rage. Today we're talking about AI and its place in the future of work. This will shock exactly no one. But I'm struggling hard with AI. I use it at maybe 5% of its capabilities, and I know that I'm missing the boat. And yes, I'm also aware that it's wildly contradictory to my lifelong devotion to efficiency. I often feel like my parents must have when smartphones first showed up, suspicious and totally lost, convinced that this is the moment everything officially goes to hell in a handbasket, which is probably exactly how their parents felt about TVs and cars. AI brings out my inner curmudgeon. Get off my lawn and take your bots with you. Right? And I think it's mostly because it pokes at the creator part of me, the part that labors over words, obsesses over nuance rewrites emails for hours, and really, really, really cares about connection. The part that spends two hours preparing for every podcast episode, who writes and rewrites and tweaks every open and close. It's those parts of me that get annoyed watching people crank out thought leadership in 10 minutes flat. With AI doing all of the heavy lifting, I worry about losing creativity, critical thinking, humanity. Honestly, sometimes it just feels like everyone is cheating. And yet stubbornly refusing to learn and grow isn't exactly a power move either. I am missing the boat. And I also know that staying planted on the dock, yelling at the boat doesn't make me principled, it makes me stuck. Because the real question isn't whether AI is coming or if it's going to impact how every single one of us works. It's how we engage with it. Ideally without selling our souls, our creativity, or our humanity in the process. Which is why we're having this conversation with someone who lives at the intersection of innovation and people and refuses to treat those as opposing forces. Today we're joined by Katie Fortunato, co founder and EVP of Platform Innovation and Strategy at Haier Innovations. A global leader in human centered AI talent technologies, Katie helps major brands modernize hiring while keeping people at the center. With a background at mtv, AOL and the Wall Street Journal and a deep commitment to workforce equity and responsible innovation, Katie sits right at the intersection of AI hiring and the future of work. So Katie, welcome to the show and I want to start by kicking off from your perspective the good and the bad. So where does AI genuinely make work better? And I'm sure there are lots of ways and where might it be being misused?
- [04:38]
Katie Fortunato
Sure. So. And thank you for having me. Also Nicole, and your comments about how intimidating it is is is real for me too. Even though in your nice intro I'm living it and breathing it every day, I will say I spend 80% of that time in fear of it as well. Even though I am doing being as proactive as I possibly can to be that expert. The truth is you're feeling overwhelmed and spending only 5% of your time working with it because it's new. Everybody is learning and how we use it at work and how we use it in our daily lives is so individualized and it's easy to get intimidated by the headlines that you see day after day about AI. And also, you know, looking at what happened at the start of the year where the couple first major news stories where AI is taking your job. So is it showing up at work? Absolutely. Are you right to be fearful that if you don't adopt, it's going to take over? Well, not necessarily. But if you don't adopt, somebody who has adopted it is going to take your job. And Nicole, not you, because you are a. You are, you've got your own thing going on.
- [05:51]
Nicole Kahlil
You never know. I mean, they're producing podcasts nowadays by AI and that scares the shit out of me.
- [05:56]
Katie Fortunato
But you know, generally. And that is a brand choice, right? And there are podcasts where if you have been somebody invited on podcasts, they'll say, hey, send me your script. I'm going to put it in an AI format. I've got an AI avatar for you. For me personally, that's not part of my brand because what you said in my intro is we are all about the human centered nature of work and using technology in an ethical and responsible way. That that means people like myself, who, or yourself who are aligned with that want the human element to be the authentic, trustworthy part of their brand. As soon as you take that way with AI, you are risking your audience trust and credibility. So it becomes a brand choice. And that, that's as far as, you know, how are companies going to be adopting it? How an individual person is going to be adopting it is also an individual, you know, well, how does it best serve my needs and align with my values?
- [06:56]
Nicole Kahlil
So this might be a difficult question because I imagine each of us is, as you said, going to use AI in different ways for different reasons. What is something, though, that maybe most of us, or many of us should be adopting or aware of or leveraging in order to make ourselves not replaceable and to stay with the times and basically to get ahead of the future of work.
- [07:25]
Katie Fortunato
Here, here's what we're seeing on a personal productivity level. And this is where if anybody is starting out, they should absolutely focus. And this is also how I manage my teams and how I manage the way that I approached this practice. But for first of all, the first thing you need is a mentality shift from resistance. And I don't want to change, but for the same reason, all of the generations before us have evolved, you know, mindset shift, be curious, be open minded, approach it from. What can I learn from this? How can this help me as a tool? What I'd say to start with, if you're somebody who's just figuring out how do I use AI, is create a list of, of all of the things that you do on a repeat basis. And for me as a working mom and you know, I'M a founder, I'm a mom, I'm a wife. All the things I've got that list. And it's the personal things that I do on repeat, it's the things I do for the family on repeat. It's the things that I do at work on repeat in that priority, right? Like that's, that's how I'm going to set my life up with AI for success. Some of the things that I find are things like grocery shopping. Create your list. You don't have to think about it every week. Do you know what meals that you like? Well, hey, I love these meals, I love these recipes. Give me the basic ingredients that I need week over week. Takes a lot of the thinking and effort out of it. And then you build your skill. That's so basic, right? Like starting with the list of essentials and then figuring out like, that anyone can do that. And once you go through that list and say, you know, Here are the 30 things I always do on repeat daily or weekly, then decide what do I not like to do on this list. You might find it's scheduling, bills, accounting, and then figure out what's the AI tool that you're going to need to help facilitate those functions of your life. And if you get stuck and you're like, well, how do I even do that? This is something that my boss says to me all the time and I hate it. And they say, well, did you ask ChatGPT how to do it? Which is the beauty of ChatGPT and Gemini, and you don't know how to do something. You have an education tool for free.
- [09:44]
Nicole Kahlil
So I think you just answered my next question. For those of us who are really behind on the AI boat, how do we find which tool? And Maybe it is ChatGPT or Gemini. But like, even knowing which tool to use sometimes feels overwhelming because there's so much out there. So if we go through our list repetitive tasks, how do I we identify which AI tool to even leverage.
- [10:10]
Katie Fortunato
It's like going to the gym. You just have to start small, start obvious. You might join a major gym and you want the membership so you can try everything or you already know specifically exactly what you like and you know which. You know micro and fitness class to go check out. Same approach when you're selecting your AI tool. I'll tell you how I did it. I did the research on which tool serves which function best and here's what I've personally found. Gemini the Nano banana is lights out. Amazing for anything creative and graphic and visual. Now I am also a creator and a creative person, so I. I'm not using that in a way that it's like, this is my advertising and this is my art, but using it for things in my life where that human piece doesn't matter. The other thing is, like, I looked at all the numerical stuff that I do across the business, across my personal finances, across the household management, and at the time, that told me Claude was the best tool for that. And then I looked at, you know, what are the tools? Everybody's talking about that for my industry, I need to understand and know. And that was where OpenAI came in. So even then I did the research on which tool is best for me. And if you're starting out and you. You want to take out that step, I would just say sign up for those three. Personally, I'm a little cautious of going with the deep seq1 and trying to also just harness more American dynamism in general. And it's part of our brand, but, like helping some of the more native and credible and trusted platforms succeed. So. And here's the thing, they're all getting better. And if you're just starting out, it doesn't really matter which one you pick, but try to learn it to its fullest. That's the best way to get started.
- [12:08]
Nicole Kahlil
My next question is around. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a lot of the work that you do is around hiring processes and tools for that. Talk to us about something like that. Like, how do we incorporate innovation and responsibility at the same time? When I think of hiring people, there does feel like there should be some sort of human element. I also worry about, isn't it only as good as the information we put in? So, using hiring practices as an example, can you walk us through how responsible AI works? What does that look like? What does it mean?
- [12:47]
Katie Fortunato
So at Higher Innovations, we are a holding company. We do, we cover a bunch of different products and services in talent technology. That's where we got our start. And our founders from 35 years ago were on the cutting edge of the talent industry. So they've been developing products, launching them for decades at this point. And what has held true that entire time and goes down to our core mission, is we help employers find talent that they need to grow their business. And it is true. For no matter what size business you are, you need talent, and you need that talent to grow your business. And if you're a company who's also thinking about hiring, and how do I retain my employees, how do I grow my employees, how do I set them up for success and upskill them and then how do I evolve with the changing skill sets at the companies? That is all a hiring problem. And that's where we looked at in my role I manage the I think about platform innovation. So what are the other new innovative products and growth strategies for our company we should be looking at? That includes and M and A. That includes we have our own innovation lab which I run and it includes flourishing the features and products that we already have to continue to solve these problems of our customers. Most of our customers are like the center of people at an organization and or they're a founder and if you ask any founder or leader what they spend the most time doing is people related things and especially as an earlier stage company, that is the business 40%. If you don't get your team right, you don't meet your goals that you need for it to be a profitable, viable, thriving business. So we believe that the success for any company at its organization is its people. You don't have to become an AI engineer. You don't have to have everyone at your company become an AI engineer. There are other basic levels of AI that can help the business, but everybody should have and work towards a basic understanding of what fundamentally is AI and how do we predict and how do we predict AI is going to shape the industry that I am in and how does my business need to move to stay relevant? That those are the questions. Once you answer those, then you figure out what the plan is.
- [15:12]
Nicole Kahlil
Starting a business sure does sound empowering until you're staring at your laptop thinking what if this doesn't work? What if nobody ever buys? What if I just made a very public, totally mortifying mistake? I've built my business from the ground up and here's what I know. Confidence isn't the absence of doubt, it's building in the face of it. And that is a lot easier to do when you have the right infrastructure behind you. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from brands just getting started to household names with hundreds of ready to use templates. Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that actually matches your brand. It's packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. And you can create email and social media campaigns to find your customers without needing to hire a full marketing department. It's time to turn all of those what ifs into with Shopify Today sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com TIW go to shopify.com TIWW again, that's shopify.com TI W W
- [16:32]
Sponsor Announcer
membership means more with American Express Business Gold earn four times Membership Rewards points in your top two eligible spending categories every month, including eligible U.S. advertising purchases in select media and U.S. purchases at restaurants, including takeout and delivery. What are you waiting for? Get the card that flexes with your spending every month. Terms and points cap apply. Learn more@americanexpress.com Business Gold AmEx Business Gold Card Built for business by American Express. Your vehicle doesn't just get you from here to there. It's a bridge to the people and places that matter most. It's how you show up for your family, your community and everyone else that depends on you. That's why for 125 years Firestone has been building tires with one thing in to deliver products that are as reliable as you are. Firestone always dependable since 1900.
- [17:33]
Nicole Kahlil
So let's say somebody or a team of people does that and they're leveraging AI in ways that work for them. Any thoughts or tips on I'm just going to call it checks and balances for lack of a better term. But as you're using it to make sure that you're not losing the human, that you don't over rotate is basically the question I'm asking. Any thoughts?
- [17:56]
Katie Fortunato
There's the hard truth is, and you might not like this answer, but you cannot guarantee that because we live in a world where data breaches happen all the time. Cybersecurity is something that is consistently coming up in in the safety and privacy of major organizations. So if it can happen to them, yes, it can happen to anyone and there is no guarantee. So it becomes what Back to your point on creating the data and the foundation, what is the input? What data are we giving access to? And that's a brand decision that that you have to safeguard your brand. And there are tons of different compliance checkpoints that if you as an implementer of AI or you're shopping for an AI solution, you have to ask the right questions. And I'd start with a place of credibility and trust out of the gate and doing a vendor evaluation. How long have they been in business? If it's a new business, you might consider looking at who's on their board, who's on their leadership team. Do I trust these people to do the right thing is really what you're buying into? If you can't say that about the tool or you're not sure. You know, test it in a way that is comfortable to your business that you feel, you know, ask two questions. Does this put my business at risk? Yes or no? Is this going to produce a product that I can stand behind and be proud of? Yes or no. And you'll find that with the tool. Yeah, there are things like SOC2 compliance, like to get really technical that you want to be looking for if you're a major organization and you probably already have a data privacy and cybersecurity policy anyway to make sure that there's a checklist before you download and just start using something at your organization. Absolutely. Don't do that because that happens all the time too with this, how freely and easily it is to just download any AI tool.
- [19:55]
Nicole Kahlil
So to be fair to AI, I don't think there's any tool that you can have a hundred percent guarantee on. You know, if we think of hiring, even if it's just a hundred percent people, there's biases, there's, you know, there's all sorts of things. So I don't know that I, and I hope that Nobody's looking for 100% guarantee. I just think leveraging AI and maintaining some of the human people element might be the best way to ensure that we get the best of both worlds. So based on that, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see companies making with AI right now that could create some legal security or trust issues that they may not see coming until it's too late? Like as we're innovating, testing. What are some of the mistakes that we should be aware of so that we don't inadvertently fall in that trap?
- [20:41]
Katie Fortunato
So on the topic of creating trust, preserving the human charm, what is a big red flag is, are you seeing, and maybe this is more, I'm looking at this visually in the employer brand space, but are you seeing a company saying, hey, we are people centric, we love our people, we want the human elephant to be part of every aspect of our business, our customer service, this and that. And then are they advertising their brand with AI led people? That's a question. Like it's, I would question that value. And I mean, we made a decision at one of our startups that the point of our startup, it's called jobstream, but the point of it is connecting humans. So we are not going to be advertising fake humans talking about the brand doing that. So again, it comes down to like the, the, the value proposition of the brand and the employer. So I think it's deciding where for your business and you personally, where are your values? If you're an artist, you might be thinking of incorporating AI into the research and brainstorming stage of your artistry process, if you have one. If you're a writer, you might be considering AI for he hey, I need statistics, facts and ideas and sources. Help me get those quickly. Because we all know how long it takes to sift through a library and encyclopedia to find those things the good old manual way. But that helps you write more books more quickly, right? If you get the research part done faster. So thinking about, like, what are the things that are so authentically, uniquely me? And that is my value. My personal feeling is never give that up, never. And it becomes part of your personal brand, then that you know it's always gonna be you on the podcast and not some avatar.
- [22:38]
Nicole Kahlil
All of that speaks so much to my personal experience and sort of like belief I'm trying to create is my voice, is my work. And I need to maintain control and ownership and authenticity over that. And so as an example, I write out my emails and my intros and my exits and all of those things. And then I use ChatGPT, as I call it a cleanup service. I basically write everything out and dump it in and like bold anything that needs to be edited because it's flat out wrong or needs doesn't flow or whatever. And I'm sure that there are more optimized ways that I could use it, but for me, my voice matters so much that that feels right now, when it comes to my grocery list or even like show notes for this episode, we just go the AI route because it doesn't matter that much. This isn't my voice. This is like a SEO, you know, to help people find podcasts. So again, everything you said kind of resonated with me. I as you're talking, I'm like trying to wrap my head around it for me. So then my next question. Is it normal to feel like, like using AI is cheating or is that just a me thing? How do we decide? You gave a few examples, but like, how do we wrestle with the this is a smart and efficient asset versus I'm selling my soul over here. I'm being extreme. But you get the idea.
- [24:07]
Katie Fortunato
How do we wrestle with it? Is going through the same example. You just said that your process was, was what's important to my business and what am I going to make money doing? Can AI replace that or do it better? That's the question. And it no. The answer is no. For you, it's absolutely not. You're a, you're a Persona, you're a creator and that is authentically unique about you. As soon as you give AI that access, you democratize access to what is unique to you. So that's, that's how people should be thinking about it is like what is my, my personal identity that I need to protect? And protecting your own personal brand, that's the best starting point. The other things around like what, how else should I be using it? Does it feel like cheating? It depends on the situation and what's the outcome. I would say where I am very concerned and also involved in a philanthropic way and shaping is the digital well being of our youth. And it's so critical to address it now and get it right because this is the future of the workforce and we're not setting them up for success by taking things like learning how critical thinking is done in school and we're not teaching them how to do the job or how like we're not teaching them how to even create their own intuition and judgment making skills if we let Chachi Beatty and AI decide everything for them. So my prediction is and fundamentally believe that we need to protect our, our youth and we need to tell them what the rules are because nobody has them right now. And the federal kind of regulating of this is years away. But what, you know, it comes down to the working mother, how do you want to run your household and how are you taking responsibility for the collective future in. It really comes down to that for right now. Yeah, we don't want to be cheating with AI. We don't want that in school because it's not ethical and it can get you in trouble and in some cases cheating is against the law. So it's a federal or some kind of offense. But yeah, it's absolutely a problem that needs governance, but it needs self governance. And that starts with, you know, the self education on what is this tool and what do I need to know about it to, to make sure I'm being safe.
- [26:34]
Nicole Kahlil
So Katie, you took this exactly where I was hoping to go and I couldn't agree more. I worry for the younger generation learning critical thinking skills and so much more. I also worry for the older or adult generation that we're losing some of those skills not just because of AI. I'll, you know, blame social media too. There are lots of things that I think are contributing. I do think and I don't know if this is true but you know, we can go into things like ChatGPT and Ask it at a question, and it'll give us facts often that support our opinion. I feel like it's usually this very supportive tool. It often tells me I'm right, even if I'm like, I'm not totally sure I'm right. I guess I'm agreeing with you. And I agree that it is a personal responsibility thing and a collective responsibility thing. But it starts with, with us. What are some things that we should be doing differently or that we should protect at all costs? Let's get a little bit granular with this idea of making sure people are learning critical thinking and then making sure that we're not losing it.
- [27:42]
Katie Fortunato
Well, I'd say if you're on an airplane and they tell you if the oxygen mask drops down, put it on yourself first and then put it on your child. It's the same thing. Like, how are you setting your boundaries with AI? What are the guardrails and safety that you want to put in place? And then once you figure that out and what's aligned with your ethical and moral values, then go and do that for the people around you. And particularly if you are in a situation where you have little people, you have one of the largest responsibilities of probably any cusp of innovation has ever gone through. And it starts with educating. And it starts with educating everyone around you. Go to your school, tell them that you want to force this agenda. Go to your local governance, say, hey, what are we doing on a town level, region level, county level, state level, what are we doing? And get curious about the policies, because you actually can be more impactful in shaping what those are right now. And that's a blessing, too. But what we don't want is the wrong people shaping those policies. So I always say it starts with moms, because evolution tells us it does. And we believe we are literally put on this earth to meet people and repopulate. And in order for us to do that and continue to do that for our species, like, the next generation has to have a playbook for success. They have to be set up for success. So it really starts with, with the moms, the CEO of the household is what I like to say.
- [29:27]
Nicole Kahlil
Yeah, well, and I'll just throw out, like, as parents, we are responsible for ourselves and our future. That's just a fundamental truth. And as citizens, I would say the same thing. So, yes, I think being involved, being in the forefront, protecting our, our energy, our kids energy, and this critical thinking is probably one of the more important topics of the day. So, Katie, thank you for joining us. I Am sure people want to learn more about you and your work. So you can find Katie on LinkedIn @Katie Clark Fortunato and we'll put the links to find and follow her in show notes. Katie, you had mentioned something for our listeners.
- [30:05]
Katie Fortunato
So Nicole, for your community of listeners and what I really wanted, why I really wanted to come on your podcast was I understand this community that you've built. I, I consider myself one of you. And the, the tool that we have coming to market is, well, it's already live. It's, it's just we're launching it soon. It's called Job Stream. But it is a way for every person to take a hold of their own career. They it is a way to start giving yourself a platform. It's a way to start really cultivating your own community and network and it's tool in the field in the affiliate marketing space. So basically if you're a creator like yourself, Nicole, you would join, you would share jobs with your network and we're working with employers who are actively promoting and paying to advertise their jobs that you would get a commission for essentially making that referral. So I wanted to share that as I know there are many people looking for jobs right now. And if you are somebody who is having a hard time in the job market because again, this is our business, but if you are struggling with that and the jobs are the foundation of ourselves and provide us economical stability and independence, like there are ways to cut through the, the job application hell that's going on right now. And I'm just ultra sensitive to the headlines of, you know, peak unemployment rates. The next generation are also at the highest unemployment rate they've ever been. And what do we do about it? The current systems aren't working, and that's true. But JobStream is a solution that I'd love to share with you and your audience.
- [31:48]
Nicole Kahlil
Amazing. So we'll put that link in show notes so you're able to find it. Katie, thank you for your important work and for being here today.
- [31:56]
Katie Fortunato
Thank you, Nicole. It sounds like you're doing all the right things with it.
- [32:00]
Nicole Kahlil
I don't know about that, but working on it. All right, friend, here's what I am thinking. AI is neither a villain nor a savior. It's a tool, a powerful one. And like every powerful tool, it reflects the intention of the person using it. The real risk isn't that AI is replacing work. It's that we might be tempted to replace our thinking, our judgment, our creativity, our responsibility, efficiency without discernment. Isn't progress. Automation without accountability isn't innovation, and convenience without connection will always cost us more than we could ever gain. We don't need to opt out of AI to stay human, but we do need to stay awake at the wheel to decide what we're willing to outsource and what we're not. To use the tools to support our work, not strip the meaning out of it. To let AI handle the repetitive, the administrative, the tedious, so that we can double down on the parts of work that actually requires us context, curiosity, critical thinking, and care. Because the future of work isn't just about what technology can do, it's about what we choose to protect as it does. And choosing intentionally and thoughtfully is always what it means to be doing woman's work.
- [33:24]
Sponsor Announcer
Powerful doesn't just happen, you have to make it happen. So the moment Total Wireless offers a free Samsung S25FE with Galaxy AI. When you switch to total 5G or 5G plus unlimited 3 month plan, you take the network as powerful as you with unlimited 5G data that won't slow you down. Now that's a total power move. Visit your neighborhood Total Wireless store device taxes and fees may apply. Requires new activation on total 5G unlimited 3 month plan or higher. External port in and ID verification available only in total wireless stores. Limit to 4 devices per account. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Co. No matter how you do game day on the couch, in the crowd or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in with a full lineup of non alcoholic beer styles you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stock the first fridge for tip off with a variety of non alcoholic craft styles. Available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com near Beer Fit for all times Safeway and Albertsons have made saving easier than ever with great savings on family favorites this week at Safeway and Albertsons USDA Choice beef boneless tri tip, whole or flank and style ribs bone in are $6.99 per pound member price and asparagus or $1.99 per pound member price plus 16 ounce strawberries, 6 ounce raspberries or blackberries are 197 each. Limit 3 member price with digital coupon. Hurry in. These deals won't last. Visit safewayoralbertsons.com for more deals and ways to save.