Dr. Beth Kaplan (4:25)

Absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me.

Nicole Kahlil (4:28)

My pleasure.

Dr. Beth Kaplan (4:29)

So, yes, belonging as the innate desire to be part of something larger than ourselves without sacrificing who we are. When I went to find the definition of belonging in my research, probably as far back as I can remember as high school, I never got a straightforward answer. Some people thought it was membership, some people called it attachment. Some people even said fitting in. So I decided instead of really trying to go through all that messiness, I was going to clean it up a little bit. And that's where I came up with that definition. So what makes this unique, I would say, is that people associate their own definitions of what it means to belong. And when I looked at that, I didn't necessarily feel it was wrong, but there was something really missing for me. And the piece that was missing was this whole sense of individuality. So belonging is not something that others can determine for us. That's called inclusion. That's when other people say that you're allowed or you're accepted into something, right? And belonging is something we decide for ourselves. So when we look at how we construct belonging, it made a lot of sense to me to think about the fact that it's an individual's mission. And in order for that mission to be successful, you can't give up what makes you you. And that's what a lot of us do. And to me, that's the arch nemesis of belonging. That's fitting in.

Nicole Kahlil (5:55)

Okay, so a lot of things there. I want to hone in on the words innate desire. I think I have a firm belief that we're all wired for connection. And I am a die hard introvert. So like, I think a lot of times people think, oh no, you know, not everybody needs to feel connection or like they belong. And I love the very beginning part, the innate desire. Do you believe that we all feel this need, this, crave this?

Dr. Beth Kaplan (6:25)

Yes, absolutely. I believe it's hardwired in our DNA. You can go as far back as stone Age to really think about why we started to feel the sense of belonging. Initially it was for survival. So that's not changed if you really get to the. To the real root of this. I love that you brought up personality. I love that conversation. And I'm not surprised that introverts need belonging just as much as extroverts and ambiverts. Because the difference is really how much stimulation you take in. Right. And that has nothing to do with how much you expect back. It really doesn't. So I would say belonging is personality agnostic. And everyone needs to know what makes sense for them. At the same time, need to really protect yourselves and make sure that you're not giving up what makes you you. Because then no one wins in that situation. They really don't.

Nicole Kahlil (7:19)

Yeah. Okay. You kind of differentiated between inclusion and belonging and I loved the way that you did that. I also feel like this sort of idea that needing to fit in is the arch nemesis of belonging. But I think often that's what we think we need to do to experience the feeling. So how do we sort of separate this idea of belonging versus trying to fit in?

Dr. Beth Kaplan (7:47)

I love that question. So to me, fitting in requires you giving up what makes you you to be part of something else. And belonging requires that you be you. They're very different in that sense. I can give you so many ideas and reasoning why that is the way it is. But I always like to give the example that I am a Philadelphia Eagles fan. So I apologize. Anyone out there, don't shut me off yet. But when I go to a bar and I don't know anyone and I see anyone wearing an Eagles hat, I'm going to beeline to them. And it's not because I have to do anything, it's because I know I can be myself. I'm an Eagles fan. They're an Eagles fan. Does that mean we're gonna agree on anything? No, not even a little bit. But it means I don't have to change who I am. And that's an instinct that we all possess. Maybe not the Eagles fan part.

Nicole Kahlil (8:37)

I don't have an affiliation, so we're all good.

Dr. Beth Kaplan (8:41)

Okay. So I think to me, that's a really easy thing to understand. It doesn't require me changing anything about myself. It reminds me. It actually requires me to be myself.

Nicole Kahlil (8:51)

Now, in my personal experience, what I have found when I've tried to fit in is I may have, and I'm going to put in air quotes, belonged more from the perspective of other people. But internally I felt wholly and fully drained. It was exhausting. Whereas I think the flip side of showing up authentically and being yourself and bringing your full self is internally very inspiring and fulfilling. But externally can have some, I don't know, potential consequences. We can't control other people's reactions and behavior. So maybe this goes back to the difference between inclusion and belonging.

Dr. Beth Kaplan (9:39)

Actually has a lot more to do with personality. Introverts, extroverts, ambiverts. What separates them all is the amount of stimulation they take in. You can actually. This is going to mess this up quite a bit. It's going to make it even muddier than it already is. But you can actually be an introvert, go somewhere where you don't have to fit in and still be drained because that might just be the way you are and the way you process. But to your point, there's a really big thing missing when you go somewhere and you don't have to be anything but yourself. And the conversations are you just feel good compared to when you fit in or you tried to fit in. There may be a temporary happiness accompanied with that. Right. I didn't stand out. I didn't make a fool of myself. I didn't. But what happens is uncertainty sets in. I like to call that belonging uncertainty. I did not make that up. A lot people smart that are way smarter than me did. And that belonging uncertainty has a very intense ripple effect because you are left to question everything. Did I fit in? Did I do anything based on my own merit? Do they need me to fit in? Were they asking me to fit in? Did I try on my own? Did I guess something? And do I belong in general? So the interesting thing is we make up our minds whether or not we belong in a new scenario within the first seven seconds of being there. So you know, and when you give in to situations that have you giving up a part of your identity, whether it's big or small. It feels really bad. Right. You feel bad about yourself. So that's one of the big differentiators. And that has a lasting effect. We know already that from a neuroscience perspective, that interrupts our working memory. What allows us to retain information, to give information. We know that it has mental, not just the mental impact, but it physically hurts. I'm sure you've been somewhere where you've tried to fit in and it's worked or it hasn't and suddenly you feel achy or you're hungrier or you're, you know, can't sleep. There's so many different things that happen, but that is one of the biggest differences whether or not we, if we are being our true selves, we're not. There's such a gamut and spectrum of things that occur mentally and physically.

Nicole Kahlil (11:57)

Yeah. I think for me it is a dual thing. It is that kind of feeling sick to my stomach, you know, that feeling like I almost betrayed myself a little bit. I also have the tendency to overthink in those situations. It's like all one big mind fuck. And you kind of talked about that as like, did I do too much? Did I do too little? Did it? And it's like you lay in bed overthinking a 7 second event or whatever.

Dr. Beth Kaplan (12:24)

Yes.

Nicole Kahlil (12:24)

Okay. So I want to approach this a little bit from two different angles. The first is, what can workplace cultures, leaders, colleagues, peers, what can we do that has the biggest influence on an employee's sense of belonging?

Dr. Beth Kaplan (12:43)

Would you believe that the manager, your direct manager, has the biggest influence on your sense of belonging in the workplace? And let's take that one step further. You said to me, what could we as leaders do in the workplace to help people's sense of belonging? And the number one answer, which I never get, not one person has ever given me the real answer is care, believe it or not. And care has a very large spectrum. Care can be thoughtfulness, care can be clarity. Right. Clear is kind. Clear can be speaking someone's name in a room they're not in for opportunity. So care is huge, but it needs to happen. The person needs to feel like this is a mutual understanding of care. And believe it or not, it doesn't even have to be authentic care. And I know there are people that are probably throwing things at me right now, but the reality is it just needs. The person on the other line needs to feel like they're being cared for.

Nicole Kahlil (13:44)

Okay? I have found maybe more. Well, I guess it probably plays out in all relationships. Sometimes how we show care is different than how somebody receives care. Is there some benefit as a leader or as an employee to having that conversation? Listen, this is how I typically demonstrate care. Or hey, this is typically how I feel cared for. So I'll give an example. I know a lot of people I've worked with in the past. One of the ways they feel cared for is when somebody ask them a lot about their personal lives. Like, how was your weekend? What did you do? I gotta tell you, that is so hard for me. I can do it somewhat inauthentically if I need to, but the way I demonstrate care is by making sure people have opportunities. I do say their name in rooms they're not in. Giving credit where credit is due, championing that. Like, there's so many things that I can think of of how I would demonstrate care, but it might be different than how somebody wants to receive it. So is that a worthwhile conversation? Does it even matter?

Dr. Beth Kaplan (14:53)

Okay, absolutely. So there's a few things. It sparks a couple things. Yes, people just like you need to understand how people want to be praised. You need to understand how they want to be cared. Some people don't want to share information, believe it or not. Some people don't get their sense of purpose from work. I mean, that sounds blasphemous for nowadays, but that's what we call dissimulated belonging. You can feel a sense of belonging. You don't necessarily feel it to the workplace, and that's okay. That's where people need to respect and understand. But they can't do that until you tell them. So it goes both ways. If I am a leader out there listening, what I would say is, you ask people, how do you like to be praised? Some people want it written in the sky, and some people want a humble mention in a meeting. And some people want nothing other than job well done. Okay? So understanding what praise they want, how they receive praise, what works best from them, how they want to feel cared for. So that means meeting people where they are at. I would also say if you're out there and you are thinking to myself, God, I don't think that my leader or supervisor or anyone higher than me in the chain knows that about me. It's okay to tell them. It really is. The other thing I would say, if you're a leader out there, ask what the person liked about their last few leaders. What did you like about this person? Oh, you liked that they kept consistent one on ones with you. Okay, great. So then mental note, I won't be changing Nicole's one on one schedule or I won't be moving it randomly for her. At the same time, ask what the what they didn't like. I did not like when Nicole moved my meetings all the time. It made me feel like I was a lower priority on her list. So summarizing that yes, ask your people how they like to feel cared for, understand their boundaries and ask what they liked about their last three leaders and what they did not like.

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Dr. Beth Kaplan (18:22)

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Nicole Kahlil (18:42)

Great tactical things for both sides, right? Whether you're the leader or the employee or any version of that. One of the things that I like when I was doing my preparation that you say is that belonging is a choice and I think sometimes we're too quick to say we don't belong and it's this person's fault. What are some of the things that we can do internally within our workplace culture to improve our own sense of belonging?

Dr. Beth Kaplan (19:16)

So I would really set up boundaries. That's a really good way to understand your own sense of belonging, what matters to you, and what you need to do to protect your inner peace. I'd also understand what my values are and what I don't value. For example, I bet I could ask you what you don't value. It's probably very different than it was for you 10 years ago.

Nicole Kahlil (19:33)

100%.

Dr. Beth Kaplan (19:34)

I don't value being right anymore. I don't need to be right. And if I'm being honest, Nicole, I don't know if I necessarily feel like I need to be understood all the time either. So to me, if I'm in it with someone and we're going at it, I have to remember sometimes it's just not a hill we're dying on, and I don't need to be right. And there's a way that you handle yourself that makes you feel honest and good at the end of the day. And that's where I would have my guiding principles set.

Nicole Kahlil (20:02)

Okay. In your book, you've identified various types of belonging. Can we talk a little bit about those?

Dr. Beth Kaplan (20:09)

Yes. So in the research, I kept hearing various descriptions and interviews around what people thought belonging was, and they just. They felt a little icky to me. And I had a really deep seated question the whole time was, is belonging all or nothing? Can I belong to parts of something and not a whole? And I just didn't find the research anywhere. I mean, think about this. I have a gym membership. I have two gym memberships. I feel equal to both of them. So I can belong to more than one thing. And then I kept thinking, oh, my goodness, belonging is not all or nothing. And then it led me to ask myself, since it's not all or nothing, that means when I say belonging, it could mean more than one thing to each person that hears it. And what is the opposite? People kept telling me, professors, other researchers, that the opposite of belonging was exclusion. That's what I heard most of all. And it just didn't sit with me, because we know the opposite of exclusion is inclusion. So I really set out to understand that, Right? And that's where I decided to really make the understanding of belonging clear when it comes to true belonging. Right? So the innate desire to be part of something larger than ourselves without sacrificing who we are, which is actually a derivative from Brene Brown's definition. What I did was I added the sacrificing who we are part to it. She came up with the first half, so I want to give credit where it's due. There's so the opposite of belonging is thwarted belonging. Thwarted belonging is when we have a lack of belonging. So when we have a lack of belonging, there's some really bad hard ramifications. We won't go through all of them. But what I will say is the end result is that we know belonging is an antecedent to suicide. Thwarted belonging in particular. So when we feel a lack of belonging, when we feel like we are like the world would be better without us, when we feel like we don't belong anywhere, that all contributes to that word of belonging. So those are the two easiest. Now there's two more, and it's really interesting. I'm going to start with probably the harder one, which is dissimulated belonging. And that occurs when it's someone might not be candid or sincere about where they get their sense of belonging from, right? Or when they're disconnected from an environment on purpose. It doesn't mean the people with dissimulated belonging don't have a strong sense of belonging. It's just not related to the workplace in this context. And the reason that exists, if you think about it, is we got a lot of corporate cheerleaders out there. No one doesn't want to be labeled the corporate cheerleader. It's still taboo to not go out with your co workers after work. Dissimulated belongers don't want to deal with any of that drama. And when I was preparing for this, I actually thought of what I thought would be most beneficial for your listeners out there is sacrificial belonging. And that's when people consciously or subconsciously give up their wellbeing, the values, or their identity to feel accepted or for the greater good of something else. So they sacrifice that. And why it really felt like it was a calling for your podcast, Nicole, is because many women feel compelled to overcompensate in their roles. And they do that by sacrificing their well being, their personal values or their boundaries to meet societal or workplace expectations. So when I thought about that, I thought, wow, that's probably something that we could talk about and would be pretty powerful for people to hear about.

Nicole Kahlil (23:42)

Yeah, I can't imagine that this isn't something that a lot of people, women especially, are finding themselves consciously or unconsciously in. So Just to recap, the four types of belonging are true, thwarted, dissimulated and sacrificial, Correct?

Dr. Beth Kaplan (24:00)

That's right. You got it.

Nicole Kahlil (24:01)

Okay, so let's dive a little bit into sacrificial belonging. How do we know that we're headed in that direction and how do we, you know, what are some things that we can do to prevent, protect or redirect if we are going down that road?

Dr. Beth Kaplan (24:18)

Sure. So, so just to recap, sacrificial belonging for anyone, not just women, is when you give up a part of yourself, right, for what you believe is the greater good. So whether it's your mental health, your personal values, your boundaries, to fit into systems that quite honestly don't serve you very well. So this comes with the belief that your sacrifices are necessary to succeed, to earn your place. And unfortunately it takes a huge toll on people to mense. Burnout, anxiety, a deep sense of disconnection, they're all common symptoms of sacrificing too much for too long. Belonging should never come at the cost of well being. So it's critical for people to recognize when they're compromising too much and to redefine success in ways that align with your true sense of belonging.

Nicole Kahlil (25:07)

Now, the thwarted belonging, or really the, I mean worst case of not belonging, as you mentioned, being suicide. What are some things, subtle signs, cues that we can be paying attention to for ourselves and the people we care about that you know, give us some insight that that are the people we work with are feeling disconnected or that they don't belong.

Dr. Beth Kaplan (25:33)

The signs of thwarted belonging are a little harder. Sacrificial is really easy. Let me start there. If you think about sports culture, they do a real, a really good job of cutting you off when you're burning yourself out physically and mentally in the workplace. That's a lot harder to do because the more you give of yourself, the more you're typically rewarded. It is difficult to address a person with sacrificial belonging because of. Because they may think you're jealous, they may think that you don't believe their contributions are valid and they may up the ante. That's really, really difficult. Thwarted belonging is pretty similar. Typically you can recognize the signs of thwarted belonging because there's a lot of negativity that comes with it. There's a lot of emotions. I wish that emotions were not taboo in the workplace. They still are a bit, so people are inclined to hide them. Thwarted belonging usually is accompanied by masking or covering of some sort. People don't want to admit when they don't feel like they belong. It doesn't feel good. The word of belonging is not a common phrase we use in the workplace. There's a lot of emotions we have that we just simply don't have the language for. Or as I mentioned, they are taboo. So what I would say was sacrificial belonging. Let me give you a few signs. Working till all hours of the night, skipping life events to. For work and making excuses. Making excuses is another really good one. Oh, we didn't get, you know, 500% of our bonuses, but that's because the company really needed the money. So those are really good. They're, they're really easy. Telltale signs of sacrificial belonging. When it comes to thwarted belonging, it's a general feeling, you know, it. That being said, if you're asking about it like, hey, do you just don't feel like you belong here? It gets a lot more complicated. And here's the problem. Most of us are not trained psychologists in the workplace. So I'm not sure necessarily if it's anyone's place to diagnose that unless you see a professional and they could really help you understand your own sense of belonging if it's something you're just not capable of doing. Nicole, the other thing is, it's not realistic for me to tell anyone out there that if you are sacrificing too much of yourself to quit, it's not realistic. We're all tied to our livelihoods, so the book will give you ways to cope if that's just not an option for you. And it will also remind you that if you do quit without dealing with the symptoms of thwarted sacrificial belonging, it's not going to go away with your next job. It's going to follow you until you deal with it. And unfortunately, workplace PTSD has been known to last somewhere between five and ten years per person.

Nicole Kahlil (28:22)

So I love, by the way, that you said that it was going to be one of my questions of obviously the easy thing is, oh, just find a job where you do belong. But it's never that easy. Right. And I also like what I heard was play a part in getting down the sacrificial road or thwarted belonging. And if we don't address the root cause or what's going on within us that has that happen, we're just going to take it maybe not even just to our next workplace, but also to other aspects of our life.

Dr. Beth Kaplan (28:55)

Absolutely. It's not a nine to five thing. This is. This is it. If you Feel a true sense of belonging at work. And you're lucky enough to have that in your personal life. That's wonderful. That being said, if you have thwarted belonging or sacrificial, you have no choice. It will seep into your personal lives. It's not an if, it's a when.

Nicole Kahlil (29:16)

Okay, I want to ask this question. It's not as deep as the conversation we've been having, but I just feel like it's an important one because I think a lot of times when people think about the concept of belonging, there is an element, if physicality to it. And after Covid, you know, there was a lot of work from home and a lot of. And now it's the question of, do we bring everybody back? Do we do hybrid, blah, blah, blah, does it matter when it comes to belonging? And second, how can we ensure that our people still feel a strong sense of belonging no matter where they are?

Dr. Beth Kaplan (29:52)

So I'm going to go first with no. And the only time that place belongingness occurs is when something feels like home. So if you happen to be somewhere where you're working and there are padded couches and a stock fridge, I wish I had a barista. I wish I had someone creating people at the front door and all that good stuff. But I will venture to say that most corporates, or any office for that matter, do not feel like home. So the answer to should be no. That's the truth. And people will debate that because of so many different reasons. I will say in the past year, I have seen the trend digress from the conversation of belonging because people are getting real. They're saying, your jobs need you to be in person because of the type of work you do. I mean, right after Covid, if you remember, it was all about belonging. I don't believe that people are in that trend anymore. But if they are, the answer is no. The only time something will feel like place belonging is if it feels like home.

Nicole Kahlil (30:56)

I believe and agree with the answer. And I also will circle back to something you said earlier of like, hey, we're not all the same, right? And so there might be an element of asking, you know, I know for me, I don't physically need to be with people. I don't need to be in an office at all. And I always kind of chalk that up to the introvert thing. But that to me, just doesn't fulfill that sense of belonging. For me, it's about feeling like I add value and having purpose and having my work feel meaningful and all of that. But then I do know people who very much want to be with people in an office and that may be more important to that particular individual. So I believe your answer and I think there might be a little bit of what you had said earlier of like just having the conversation.

Dr. Beth Kaplan (31:45)

That's right. So let's take your example a bit further. I am ambivert to extrovert. I don't feel like I need to be in an office. One of the reasons for me personally is I work out at 6:30 in the mornings. I have a group of women I work out with. I really enjoy being with them. For me, I get a lot of fulfillment there. Do I have dissimulated belonging? Because that sense of purpose doesn't come from an office maybe. Right. And that's a positive thing. Right. Like I said, the simulated belonging is a positive. So for me, I get that sense of belonging in my mornings before I start my day. I also feel very good about getting my sense of belonging and getting to know people through the screen. The key to that is not limiting the interaction to the screen and it's learning and it's digging a little bit deeper. There are people that crave that closeness by proximity. I told you I do. Right. I do it in the morning. So. So you do not have to get it from the workplace. You can get it in other places. Are there people that need it from the workplace? Yes, there are. There. Those are. You know, they feel like they're their people. But make no mistake, they're your work people. They're not necessarily a family or any of the other things that the workplace may call itself.

Nicole Kahlil (33:02)

Right. Yeah. I always get a little angsty when workplaces refer to themselves as a family. I'm like, oh, you're dysfunctional. Like I don't, I don't know. That's my go to anyway. I know people are going to want to learn more and I love again, so many resources in the book. So find Braving the Workplace. You can get it on Amazon or go to your local bookstore. Let's keep them in business. And also Beth has a newsletter called the Belonging at Work newsletter. You can find it on LinkedIn as well. Well as all the other social medias. Her website. We'll put all the links in. Show notes. Beth, thank you for this important conversation. I know so many of us want that true sense of belonging in our lives and also in our work.

Dr. Beth Kaplan (33:50)

Yeah. So my, my leaving my departing words would be. When you're looking for that sense of belonging, look inward first. The most important thing you will belong to is yourself.

Nicole Kahlil (33:59)

I love that because the same is true with confidence, which is what I talk about all the times you look inward first. So, all right, going to close us out by saying belonging isn't just about feeling good at work. It's about knowing you're in the right place to thrive, contribute, and grow. It's a foundation that fuels everything from innovation to resilience. And when we recognize our own value and claim spaces where we can show up authentically, we make room for others to do the same. And that's how we transform workplaces into communities and high value opportunities. Because here's the truth. When you feel you belong, when you know you're valued, you show up, speak up, and make the kind of impact that only you can. And that, of course, is always woman's work.