Jan Juhas (4:13)

I think the biggest thing or the difference between ultimatums and boundaries is usually ultimatums come from the ego and they are more emotional. So it's like in their conditional terms, you must do X or else I'm going to do Y. And anytime we project a threat or a demand onto another person, more than likely it's not going to be met and it's going to, the other person is going to resist. Because nobody likes to be put in a position where they have to be forced to do something and they don't have a voice. And when it comes to that ultimatum that's being set now, I think when it comes to more like physically, you know, endangered type situations or something where you feel in harm's way, then we might have a hard ultimatum in that sort of situation to protect our well being. But otherwise, when it comes to setting boundaries, boundaries are more from a heart centered perspective and we make it more about a we mindset, not a me mindset. So ultimatums like me versus you, where boundaries are like, how are we solving this problem together based on the shared value of like, communication, honesty, transparency.

Nicole Kahlil (5:22)

Okay, great response. And I should have asked this before we even hit record, but I'm looking at two identical twins. And now I'm realizing that I don't know which of you is which. So, Jan, was that you or is that Jillian who just spoke?

Jan Juhas (5:35)

That was Jan. It was me.

Nicole Kahlil (5:37)

Okay, Jan. Okay. All right. Jillian, do you have anything to add or anything that you'd say differently about boundaries versus ultimatums?

Jillian Juhas (5:45)

Yeah, I think, like, she emphasized, especially with boundaries, it's all about how can we honor that relationship, that connection, how are we bridging the gap between our differences so that way we maintain that harmony and can still interact and engage with each other where it doesn't feel like it's one perspective is better than the other, but we're taking two perspectives and finding a mutually beneficial agreement that we both can live with and move forward with. And I think that's really important.

Nicole Kahlil (6:11)

Yeah, I love the distinction of the we versus me. I think both of you basically said that it's a great way for us as we're going through it, navigating through it to distinguish what we're doing. I also think, Jan, you had said something that made me think this is. It's like when we do it in an ultimatum way, unless our life is at risk or something like that, we have no choice but to put the other person on the defensive. It's like they're not even going to hear what we have to say because they're so trying to protect themselves or their intentions or their whatever that, like, it doesn't even land. Is that a fair statement?

Jan Juhas (6:54)

Yeah. More than likely they're going to just come, react, react back to the statement that's been said, and it's actually going to breed more distrust and disconnection in the relationship, which makes it harder to get your need met and feel respected in that moment.

Jillian Juhas (7:09)

I also think too, if you have somebody who's coming at you, if you think about the reverse and we're receiving this, how do we feel in that moment? Like, usually we get that gut feeling that doesn't feel good. We might get anxious, we might emotionally shut down. So I think it's always good to think about the reverse role to help us understand, too, how the other person may be perceiving if we were to set, you know, an ultimatum.

Nicole Kahlil (7:33)

Okay. I think as women, sometimes we veer towards the ultimatum route out of a misplaced desire to come across as strong or powerful or to have that, like, mic drop moment. But it almost ends up looking like, regardless of gender, more like drama or temper tantrum or something like that. Do you see that at all? Or any gender Differences as it relates to wanting to be firm about a boundary, but then kind of swinging the pendulum too far.

Jan Juhas (8:09)

So I think regardless of gender, it's going to come across as a very emotionally reactive or from an ego paced place perspective. Because when we're operating from our ego, we're in our emotional state, we're in that trauma response and we're triggered and so we're reacting without really thoroughly thinking through how can I get my need met, how can I work with this person in order for them to meet my need. Yeah, I don't know if it's necessarily like a gender thing because I think there's a big misconception in general across the board when it comes to boundaries. But women might be seen as more emotionally reactive or drunk, dramatic, where a man might be seen, or masculine energy might be seen as well, he's just, you know, putting his foot down. So yeah, I do think there might be that perception from the outside world that women are portrayed differently.

Jillian Juhas (9:01)

I also think too sometimes women stay silent too long. And so then all of a sudden when they've reached their ultimate limit because they didn't set the boundary when they first experienced that emotion, that signal in their body, saying like, this doesn't feel good. I need to speak up in this moment. But so many women are often told to like, I think growing up in the home, be the good girl or keep the peace and just go with the flow, especially if your job is on the line. So a lot of times women stay silent until then all of a sudden they reach this threshold where they have to like really say, enough, enough, like I can't take this. And then of course it becomes a much more emotional reaction.

Nicole Kahlil (9:38)

I think that's such a good point. I know I've experienced that myself where I just let it go too long and I basically like exploded because I couldn't take it anymore. So where do emotions fit into boundary setting? Because I think a lot of the times the way we recognize we need to set a boundary is from an emotional place. And I do think there's some value in communicating how we're feeling or how somebody else's. Our relationship with somebody or their actions might make us feel. But like, how do we do that without coming from the ego, emotional drama place?

Jan Juhas (10:12)

We have two different formulas when it comes to personal boundaries or professional. So if it's a personal relationship, such as a romantic partner or family member, then you might say, you know, I feel dismissed whenever my perspective's not being heard. I value mutual respect. Can we Each have a chance to share our perspectives and hear each other out. And so that would be more from a personal relationship. If it's a professional relationship, we come from a more big picture perspective in regards to the disconnect in the behavior. It seems like we're on two different pages here when it comes to really sharing all of our getting all the perspectives on the table. I really value, you know, constructive communication or I value mutual respect. Can we each share our perspective and then collaborate on what we think is the best method forward in resolving this, you know, situation?

Nicole Kahlil (11:05)

Okay, that was really good. I love the distinction between personal and professional. One thing I noticed in the personal is you said I feel versus you make me feel. Or sometimes we again, just inadvertently put people on the defensive as opposed to owning that our feelings are ours. I want to kind of dig a little deeper into that because it was really good. And I want to make sure we, and I mean, maybe me, don't miss the distinction. So between the personal and the professional, what are the key differences and how you approach it?

Jan Juhas (11:40)

Just the first.

Jillian Juhas (11:42)

So there's three sentences when it comes to setting the boundary. So the first sentence is pretty much really just the difference. So if it's a personal relationship, we're going to say I feel or I think. And so we're using I statements to own what it is that we are experiencing. And then we're also addressing the problem, not the person, in terms of what that disconnect or discord looks like.

Jan Juhas (12:06)

The behavior that we find uncomfortable or unacceptable.

Jillian Juhas (12:10)

And then in that professional atmosphere type setting of a boundary, we say it seems or it appears because reason why we do this is because we want to sort of depersonalize it in the professional world so the person who's on the receiving end can understand. This is a more of a joint kind of project. This is a joint decision making that. And so we're taking away because we're trying to really just focus on that productivity or the ultimate goal that we're trying to achieve. And it's not to say that there isn't empathy in the workplace, but obviously when there are differences, we want to remove as much emotion as possible because emotion does heighten the conflict. Yeah.

Jan Juhas (12:48)

Also our emotional triggers are actually our cue in order to. When we need to set a boundary. And usually the opposite of that emotional trigger in order to get the need met. It's the value that we're setting the boundary on, such as we're feeling ignored. The value might be communication. We're feeling rejected. It might Be that we value connection. So depending on what that emotional trigger is, that is your cue and that's your insight into what it is. You need to ask for the opposite to be met when you're setting the boundary, because that's where you're bridging the gap. Emotions are also one sided perspectives can be challenging for the other party to understand. So that's why when we set a boundary, we're using our values because the values are universally understood and you're more likely to feel heard and understood by the other person and receive a positive response.

Nicole Kahlil (13:40)

So what I'm hearing you say is that our negative emotions or reactions are giving us insight to what we really want. And it's typically the opposite of what it is that we feel like we're getting. And so being mindful of what is this feeling telling me about what I desire or what's missing or what I want from this relationship and then communicating that in a way. Okay, I love this. This framework is great.

Jillian Juhas (14:10)

Yeah. So we're, we're still talking about our emotions, but we're doing it indirectly in a way, like I said, because like she said, values are universally understood. And the more that we can articulate our value, we come across as high value, which people are more inclined to respect as versus saying oh, you're emotional or you're being aggressive. So we remove that ability for people to come back with that reaction.

Nicole Kahlil (14:33)

So smart. Okay, I have to ask you this because it was honestly what intrigued me most about this topic because we've covered boundaries a couple times on the show and it inevitably pops up a lot. But being identical twins and talking about boundaries, that just feels like that started a long time ago. Whether it was consciously or unconsciously. Talk to us about what you've learned and what it's like to develop and communicate boundaries with somebody who, I mean, I gotta assume a lot of times people think you're the same, so you feel the same and want the same and that cannot be true. And you probably shared way more than most people do way early on. So all that to ask, tell us a little bit about what being identical twins taught you about boundaries.

Jan Juhas (15:30)

So one thing, it's a little bit where our we mindset comes from. So we grew up having to. Usually if we were making a decision that impacted the other person, we would take that into consideration. So it was never just about like what I wanted because if it's going to impact her as well, since we are so close and even in business today, we have to sit and discuss these things in order to make sure that we're both perspectives are being hurt. So the we mindset is something that we've kind of always lived with our entire lives, and so it makes it really easy for us to apply that concept when we're trying to negotiate solutions. However, when we moved from a rural farm town of 900 people to a metropolitan city of 3 million, we went through a huge culture shock and we experienced a lot of me mindset individuals and realized our needs were not being heard or understood. And we and we were so used to listening and hearing what everybody else had to say because it was natural for us. But then we weren't receiving the same sort of respect from other people that we were welcoming into our lives. So we kind of learned the hard way that we need to have stronger boundaries in our lives.

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Jan Juhas (19:16)

So our boundary badass method is a four step method. It's the ASAP method. The first step is to assess rather than assume a lot of times what happens and I think this is more common with women is that when we're experiencing adverse behavior from somebody, rather than assessing where is this behavior coming from, what's behind this behavior, I need to further understand it. We assume and internalize it rather than really understand that this is, has probably nothing to do with us and this is all about the other person. And so discovery questions are open ended questions allow us to really explore where this behavior is coming. For example, if somebody says something that's really rude or inappropriate to just like that's an interesting statement. Can you share more about what you meant by that or where is that coming from? So we put it back on the other person to explain this adverse behavior so we don't misunderstand or where they're coming from prior so we know what boundary we're going to set next. Because if we don't assess the disconnect or the behavior, we're not really going to know what boundary we need to set in order to get our need met.

Jillian Juhas (20:22)

And this also buys you time to collect your emotions while you're also hearing what they're saying. And then it allows you also to pause and think, okay, this is the boundary I need to set in this situation. But if someone comes, let's say you do set the boundary and they're still not receptive, you're not receiving a positive response or they just totally walk away from you. That's when you're going to use your discovery questions again and, and try to engage them. Now if they completely shut it down or they're not open, it might just say listen, is this, maybe we need to have this conversation at another time. It doesn't sound like either One of us are receptive to moving forward. How about we talk about this tomorrow and set that time and day to talk about it? And then for completely dealing with someone sort of toxic really doesn't have your best interest. This is where you have to redefine that relationship and figure out how you're going just to engage with them and when you're going to engage. So it doesn't impact your life.

Nicole Kahlil (21:15)

Yeah, because sometimes you do need to stay engaged, sometimes you don't. Right. Sometimes the decision is my boundary is you and I are no longer going to have anything to do with each other. But especially professionally or in like family, extended family situations, you sometimes don't have a choice. So it really is about how do we make it work. So what I love about assess is grounded in curiosity. And I do think we all do this. And maybe just because I talk to women more, I think women do it more. I'm not really sure. But this sort of like this is what I would do in this situation or this is how I would feel, or this is how I would respond. And so we sort of take our way of doing things and assume it's true for the other person. And I think that is a phenomenal first step to actually ask some questions and figure out where the other person is coming from.

Jan Juhas (22:10)

Yeah. We can't expect other people to operate or think or behave like how we are because everybody grew up in their own families, they've developed their own belief systems usually by age 7. There's also usually childhood wounds or unresolved trauma that went on it somewhere. And everybody kind of has that somewhere in their like life usually. And so a lot of this time what's happening when there's disconnect, how we handle conflict really is rooted back to our childhood wounds and how we handle those things in the home and what defense mechanisms we developed to go into that fight or flight response in protecting ourselves. If we are expecting someone else to operate the same exact way we're doing, we're just creating even greater disconnects and miscommunication.

Jillian Juhas (23:00)

Well, I think if you have these expectations, they lead to disappointment at the end of the day. And so that's why we always really try to focus on values and goals versus expectations because then we get get out of our own way and then we're also not going to like hurt ourselves or feel let down if the other person does operate or think differently than we do.

Nicole Kahlil (23:20)

Well said. And you said assess was the first part of a four step process. Yes. So would you Mind walking us through the next three steps?

Jan Juhas (23:29)

Yes. And this once we've assessed the disconnect, then we would set the boundary, which is the S in the asap. So set the boundary on the value that you need to have met. And next step is a agree to a mutually beneficial plan. So we're negotiating a plan that works for both people and we're creating that actionable step in order to have the boundary in place. And then P is proceed with accountability.

Nicole Kahlil (23:54)

With the agree to a mutually beneficial plan. Is this a collaborative discussion or do you come in with an offering that you think is mutually beneficial? What are some tips about how to create that plan?

Jillian Juhas (24:09)

Yes. So when we're setting the boundary, we're ending with a discovery question, how can we get to X? So whatever that goal is, and so you're opening up the communication channels to give the person who sort of has disrespected you in some way, shape or form, or there's a disconnect, whatever that may be, you're giving them the opportunity to first lead and present solutions. And if they are able to, then you can say, have you thought about this? Or can we talk about this in further detail and look at it by impositioning two different solutions. And sometimes by doing that, you give the other person an opportunity to present ideas as well. And so then you're sort of having this ping pong effect where each person has a voice to come to that mutually beneficial resolution and agreement that you're going to be both honoring as you proceed forward.

Nicole Kahlil (24:56)

Okay, you said the last step was proceed with. And I don't remember what you said. Accountability. I was like, I feel like that word was in there. This feels like a incredibly important and very tricky step because I think sometimes people unconsciously are like, let's see if this person's serious about this or you're setting up something that's outside of their habit or outside of how your relationship has functioned up to this point. This is going to take some practice. So what are some suggestions, tips, ideas of how to have these accountability moments and conversations once the mutually beneficial plan has been set?

Jan Juhas (25:41)

Yes. So as you mentioned, yes, people have innate behaviors that they've been doing potentially, you know, for the last 30, 40 years that they've developed. And so when these innate behaviors, and you were asking for a change in behavior within the dynamic so it can function in a healthier way, sometimes that person, even if they agreed to the boundary, they might revert back to their old innate behaviors. And so if that happens, just like previously we agreed to xyz. It seems like we've got sidetracked from our goal. Does this boundary still work for us? Or do we need to find a new plan of action and they might say, oh, yes, sorry, I forgot about that, or yes, this no longer works for me, we might need to renegotiate the boundary. So we do need to have patience in terms of seeing a change in behavior, but also know that if that boundary is not being upheld, we need to reinstate it and reset it.

Nicole Kahlil (26:38)

So I often think, and I think you sort of said this as well, is like giving people a little bit of grace up front. That doesn't mean that you let them blow through the boundary. It just means we don't assume that they're automatically trying to be a jerk and give you, like throw your boundary at it. Like it might be an unawareness or outside of habit. So there might just need to be a reinforcement or a reminder of the mutually agreed upon plan and. Or do you get to a point with someone where they've not held up their end of the bargain, you've given them the benefit of the doubt, you've done the reminders, you've had the conversations. How do you know when a boundary is like, okay, we need to reset a new boundary? And that is, yeah, I think that's.

Jillian Juhas (27:28)

Going to be different for every individual in terms of what their ultimate threshold or limit may look like. So maybe you say, hey, I'm going to give this person like three chances to continue honestly honoring this boundary. If they can still continue not to honor it, then that's where you might have to say, I'm only going to limit my communication or interactions with this person one hour a day or two hours a month, whatever that may be. So you start, you establish a new personal boundary for yourself, not for the relationship so much, but for yourself to protect your own emotional well being and mental health and whatnot.

Nicole Kahlil (28:06)

So that brings me to one last question about some boundaries just being internal. Like not every boundary involves having to communicate with another person. Sometimes it's just deciding something for yourself, like limiting time or exposure or interaction or something like that. Any tips about setting and keeping a boundary with yourself? Because sometimes we get a little loosey goosey with ourselves. It's easier because we're not so public about whatever it is that we're setting a boundary about. Any tips there?

Jillian Juhas (28:42)

Yes.

Jan Juhas (28:43)

So when it comes to personal boundaries like I have, we have them in our lifestyle every day. Like I, you know, have to go to the gym or So I want to eat healthy meals. What are I have to stick to my appointments and be on time. So these are all types of personal boundaries we may have in our day to day life that protect our emotional and physical well being. When it comes to having personal boundaries, the best thing to do is align it to your value system of what it is that you value. So pick your top five values which the exercises in our book that we wrote, Boundary Badass. When you pick your top five values, you and create alignment to them every single day. That becomes your inner voice. That's your authentic truth. And so that can help hold us accountable. Accountable that we're creating fulfillment in our life by being in alignment to our values on a day to day basis.

Jillian Juhas (29:33)

Yeah, now you can create. So just like people talk about positive affirmations in order to have like a positive mindset or to be able to, or meditate, whatever it is, you're trying to really work on that mindset, our value system really allows us to align to like she said, have that alignment. And that's also going to help you if you're honoring your values. You're going to, that's how you're going to know if someone crosses one of your values in regards to that because you're living your value system every single day. So if I value communication as one of my top values, I'm going to make sure when I communicate with my partner or communicate with my business partner, my sister, like I, I'm going to make sure that my communication is on par and I'm going to make sure I'm honoring that every day in my life because I can't ask for something from someone else if I don't truly live by it first and foremost.

Nicole Kahlil (30:21)

So well said. Okay, one last question, Jillian, you had said earlier that one of the mistakes we often make is not communicating our boundary and waiting until like emotions are at its highest. When do you think that boundaries should be communicated?

Jillian Juhas (30:37)

I think boundaries should be communicated as soon as possible because if we wait too long to set the boundary and further explore what happened, that other person is going to be like, where are you coming from? Or all of a sudden, if you, especially if you approach it two days later or five hours later, they're going to be so confused about where you're coming. So if you can set it sooner than later, that's also going to show self respect for yourself and try to maintain that mutual respect because your communicating is so important. Voicing your value is the biggest tool and asset we have in life.

Nicole Kahlil (31:14)

Jan, anything to add?

Jan Juhas (31:15)

I just think if we stay silent and keep shoving everything under the rug, eventually, yes, it explodes like a volcano. And that's when we lose the power of our voice when trying to communicate what it is to have our needs met. But if we don't set a boundary and a behavior continues on and on, we're inadvertently agreeing to that behavior as acceptable. And that person's going to continue that behavior because they are not aware of the fact that this behavior is crossing our limits or making us uncomfortable.

Nicole Kahlil (31:46)

Yeah, I think you both make excellent points. It's silence is agreement. And if we're not communicating along the way, people are like, where is this coming from? Like, we've been doing it like this for five hours or five months or five years and now all of a sudden. And so that's not to say, you know, if it's been five years and you need to communicate a boundary, you got to do it, but do it sooner rather than later. I think it is beneficial to everybody involved.

Jan Juhas (32:14)

Yeah. Because we're all on our own self development journey. I think throughout our entire lives, I don't ever think like, I'll stop even working on myself. That's how we become, you know, high value in life. But yes, if something's going on for five years, it doesn't mean you can't change that behavior or ask for that behavior to be changed today.

Nicole Kahlil (32:33)

Thank you, Jan and Jillian, for being here today to talk about boundaries. And I know our listeners are gonna wanna learn more about you and your work. So 28Consultancy.com is the website that's the number 28Consultancy.com. And absolutely get your hands on their book boundary. Badass. You can get it on Amazon or go to your local bookstore, but what a great resource for all of us. Thank you both for being here today and for the great work that you're doing.

Jan Juhas (33:00)

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Nicole Kahlil (33:02)

All right, friends, before we wrap up, let me leave you with an example. A boundary for me would be to not entertain negative reviews that don't give any context. Like there's one out there that just says stop. That's it. That's the entire review. So I'm assuming they mean stop being so frickin awesome. To which I respond, no, thank you, I'm going to keep on shining. Or reviews that clearly don't align with what I know to be true. Like when people assume I'm anti men or any other gender, because I know that's just not the case. My boundary is to not let those reviews affect me an ultimatum, on the other hand, would be something like if you don't leave me a five star review, we can't be friends or I'm going to stop recording if I don't get a certain amount of reviews this week. Or I'm going to quit if I get a one star review. See the difference? One is about what I won't make space for in my life and the other is more like a temper tantrum. One is about being in charge of myself and the other is about trying to manipulate and control others. I'm not sure that's the best example ever, and I definitely had a lot to learn from Jan and Jillian in this episode, but it's one that I've had to practice in real life. And Practicing Boundaries is all about clear communication and mutual respect, whether you're navigating relationships or, you know, podcast reviews. So practice. Practice staying true to yourself. Practice prioritizing what matters most. Practice communicating your needs. Practice honoring yourself. One foot in front of the other towards what matters most. That is woman's work.

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