B (4:36)

Well, firstly, thank you so much for having me here. I love that introduction. And to answer your question, it sucks. And when it sucks, I feel like a fraud because I'm, you know, built this whole thing about talking about rejection, normalizing rejection, and then I kind of have to think about it and be like, well, actually, the science says it's going to suck. Like, that is literally an evolutionary response that's hardwired into all of us. We don't want to be rejected. We'll do anything to not be rejected. So it's going to suck. But just because it sucks doesn't mean that we shouldn't put Ourselves in the wake of rejection, we just need to figure out strategies to deal with the suck.

A (5:18)

Okay, so you heard it from the expert. You're not doing it wrong if it sucks. There's not, like, where you have a bad mindset or something like that. It sucks when you're in it. But we have an opportunity, as I'm hearing you say, to think about it differently, interact with it differently, maybe use it differently in our lives than may seem natural or easy.

B (5:43)

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. I think that our natural inclination in the wake of rejection, at least, is my natural inclination, and based on discussions, I think it's many people's, is to hide in shame and to sort of hide in the corner and not ever tell anyone that this thing happened. And there are studies that show that people who sort of bring in the community when they're rejected have a much quicker bounce back than people who do it alone. And so bringing in the community feels like the opposite to what we actually want to do. We don't want to go tell our community about a really horrible rejection that just happened from a client or a boss or a colleague or. But when we do that, we realize that we're not alone and that we're safe and that our tribe is not going to kick us out. Because the whole evolutionary function of hates and rejection is that we don't want to be rejected by our tribe because that would have meant in the past that we would have died. Like, if you're dependent on your tribe for shelter, for food, for security, this poses a huge threat. So when we bring in our community and talk to them and realize that they're not kicking us out, the shame of it and the hold it has over us diminishes hugely.

A (6:57)

So a lot of what you're saying aligns with what I've learned through my research about confidence. Meaning, I think this inclination to hide and to protect and to not share it reminds me of what I see when we look at perfectionism, right? This idea that we're supposed to have it all together so we don't want to let anyone know when we don't. And the reality is, perfectionism creates distance in our relationships and in our lives, whereas vulnerability creates connection, intimacy, and all the things that we're actually looking for. So I don't know if I'm reading too much into it, but is part of the reason why having a community that you share your rejections with is part of the reason, because of the connection that it creates, the intimacy, the feeling like you're not Alone part of it.

B (7:50)

Yeah, yeah. I think that's the, the like crux of it. And I think it ties very closely to perfectionism in the sense that someone who is very rejection averse is probably more on the perfectionist side of things, wanting to get things like.

A (8:06)

Right.

B (8:08)

And so I'm interested to know your research. But being able to connect with the community and realize that you will be accepted even if you don't show up, perfect is a huge part of it. It's. I mean, I think our greatest fear because we're so hardwired for connection is to not be connected. And being afraid of rejection or being afraid of being vulnerable ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy where you actually can be less connected than if you were vulnerable and put that part of yourself out there for people to connect with.

A (8:40)

Yeah, it's also counterintuitive. Right? Yeah. So let's talk about this rejection community. I would imagine there's some semblance of being selective about it. Right. We're not just going to go and blast our rejections out to everybody all the time. What does a rejection community look like? How do we build it?

B (9:01)

I love this question. I think it can look different for everyone. But you're totally right that you probably don't want to blast it out to everyone because I could do the opposite of what you intend. So. So for example, and I mean I've done this, but I wouldn't recommend everyone do it. If you were to write about a rejection on LinkedIn or Instagram, if you don't have a highly engaged audience there, you may feel more rejected after that. You know, if you're not getting a lot of people reaching out, often the opposite happens. People are inspired by your connection, but it's still a risk. It's not always going to happen. But if you talk to someone and talk to someone who you respect, so you may not talk to, like I don't know if your mother is someone that's just going to give you affirmations no matter what, you may not feel like that's an opinion that is, I don't know, going to be totally honest. But if you have a discerning but good friend, people you rarely trust and you know they'll tell you the truth, I think that can level set because in the wake of rejection our emotional brain takes over. So we're not seeing rationally. Like for example, I once got a really, really rude rejection when I sense a pitch like to someone to partner with my podcast. And I mean we've been Doing this for a long time. Our rejections are generally very nice, or there's no response at all. Like, almost never get a rude rejection. But this one, someone accused me of using AI to create fake authenticity and then computed with how disgusting. And, like, that was a rejection that came like, like six months ago. And it still, like, makes me feel sick. Like, it was so harsh. And so when my emotional brain took over getting that rejection, I was just like, oh, my gosh, like, I messed up. I went and crossed a line here. I did something really terrible. Like, how could I have pitched this person? Did I pitch them in the wrong way? And those are the sorts of ruminating thoughts I think that would come up when anyone gets a bad rejection. And for me to involve my community, it would be talking to my partner who is very rational and logical and I know is not just going to tell me what I want to hear that would say, this sounds like more of a them thing. Even if someone sent me a really bad pitch, I can't see myself. I can't see anyone reasonable responding in that way. The most you would do is say, like, sorry, no, thank you. Yeah, yeah, no, thank you. It probably reflects more on them. And so when you have someone like that, someone that's not just going to say what you want to hear, but is going to come in with a voice of reason and logic, I think that can calm that emotional brain down a bit and be like, okay, it's not me. It could be them as well. End of the world isn't coming. I'm not going to be rejected by everyone I know. I'm safe.

A (11:54)

Yeah. So I like the idea of having these people be somebody you respect and who will be truthful. Because I do think there could be the inclination to just go to the most positive person who's going to tell you what you want to hear. But somewhere deep down, I think we know that we're not getting the whole truth. And it still sort of sticks with us. Whereas I often think in coaching, one of the hardest parts is that you can't read the label from inside the bottle. So when you're the one experiencing the rejection, you go all over the place. You make it so much bigger and you make it mean more. And just having that person who can come in and from the outside see things a little bit more clearly and help you, like, rein it back in is so important and so helpful and as you said, help stop some of the ruminating that we're likely to do.

B (12:45)

Yeah. And I don't think I fully answered your question. You said, how do you find that community? I mentioned at the beginning that it can look different for everyone, so you may struggle to find that person for whatever reason. And I think that's the beauty of the Internet, as you see community come up in so many ways. There is a Facebook group that I came across all about rejection. There's thousands and thousands of people in this. I can't quite remember the name of the group, but people basically share their rejection stories in that group and they get hundreds of responses of everyone just saying, you know, it's not you, it's just affirming them. And if that makes someone feel less alone, then I think it serves the purpose of community. Reddit's where people can post anonymously. So I think that rejection holds a lot of shame. And depending on how personal the rejection is, maybe you got fired, laid off, and you don't want to publicly share that because that could have effects on your future career and your future job. It could actually have very negative ramifications. And so maybe if you don't have those trusted friends or you don't think that your existing community will understand, you can post anonymously on a forum like Reddit and connect with other people who've gone through something similar and can offer you kind of the support and advice there. Be discerning. Not all of it will be good advice.

A (14:09)

Right? But I mean, I'd never really thought about it. My inclination would be to avoid the Internet, but. But the way you frame it, that could be a really good possibility to get some unfiltered. And like, if you have a hundred comments, you can kind of look through and see what am I hearing the most or what doesn't make sense and sort of filtered that out. Which brings me to my next question. You said this, and I just want to reiterate, I think we all have the tendency when we get rejected is to first internalize it and think about what it means about us as opposed to what it might mean about the person doing the rejecting. Like, if somebody's being a dick, that's a them problem, not a me problem. Right. Like, there are so many ways that we can reject people with kindness and clarity is an option. Being a dick is pretty unnecessary unless you started by being a dick. Right. So all of that to say, are there any tips when we're experiencing rejection to get a little bit more objective about it, to not go into the spin automatically of what it says and means about us?

B (15:26)

I think trying to create as much distance as Possible. And one of it is, I think, bringing on your community. I'd say that's the first step. In whatever shape or form, once you are not ruminating completely alone and you're involving trusted people, I think you can just level set a lot more quickly. Aside from that, I think it could be things like journaling, taking a pen and paper, getting a story down, doing any kind of reframing exercises, rewriting the story, trying to get out of your emotional brain. So that tendency to take things personally you're going to immediately kind of jump into. It's because I example, someone rejected you for a proposal you send or a job application you sent. You could immediately say, it's because I'm not smart enough, I don't have the capabilities. Clearly I'm a weak link in this domain or whatever it is you would challenge that idea. So ask yourself, what else can be true? What else could be happening? Try put yourself in the person rejecting shoes. So I had a background in journalism and when you pitch articles, you get rejected a lot and you immediately assume that your idea is not worthy. And the minute you speak to an editor, you get on the other side. You realize there's a million reasons why you get rejected. You get rejected because they're out of budget. You get rejected because they just commissioned a story very similar last week because they only have enough budget to focus on these specific topic areas. So it can so often have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the work you're doing. So I think trying to get that perspective and just shift, shift the focus away from yourself and question what, what's happening on the other side?

A (17:17)

Close your eyes.

B (17:19)

Exhale.

A (17:20)

Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry.

B (17:41)

Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.

A (17:48)

I think you're on mute.

B (17:50)

Workday. Starting to sound the same.

A (17:53)

I think you're on mute.

B (17:54)

Find something that sounds better for your career on LinkedIn. With LinkedIn job collections, you can browse curated collections by relevant industries and benefits like Flexpto or hybrid workplaces so you can find the right job for you.

A (18:10)

Get started@LinkedIn.com jobs finding where you fit LinkedIn knows how this episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. From streaming to shopping, prime helps you get more out of your passions. So whether you're a fan of true crime or prefer a nail biting novel from time to time, with services like Prime Video, Amazon Music, and fast free delivery, prime makes it easy to get more out of whatever you're into or getting into. Visit Amazon.comprime to learn more. Yeah, great advice. I like the idea of creating some distance. I often think, like, what would I tell my best friend or my daughter or whatever she was in this situation? Like, if somebody I loved was experiencing this exact same rejection in this exact same way, what would I tell them? Because I have noticed that I tend to be way kinder to the people I love than I am to myself. And that has worked for me. I also love the ideas that you shared. So pick what works for you. Give it a try. One thing I say often on this podcast is that the way we get good at anything is to practice. But it seems counterintuitive to practice being rejected. How do we do that? So one thing you talk about is how micro rejections play a role in getting us more comfortable with rejection. Tell us about that.

B (19:38)

Yeah, yeah. I'm a big advocate for practicing rejections. So in my own journalism career, I set a 100 rejection goal that was like my first kind of entry point to the term rejection, I guess, in a professional sense, where it was a challenge that was set up by a group of journalists to aim for 100 rejections in a year. And that really reframed the way I look at pitching and getting myself out there and getting rejected by editors for publications are micro rejections. I define micro rejections as rejections that are not going to have a huge impact on your life, your reputation, the way the world views you. So a non micro rejection would be going to your boss and asking if you could have a massive pay raise. That could have. I mean, I'm not saying it would be a negative outcome, it could be a really great outcome, but it has the potential to also have more impact on your life and your reputation. But if you're pitching a stranger to publish your article, if you are pitching the hotel you're staying at to upgrade you to a free room, if you are pitching a proposal, a keynote address, you want to do a keynote for an organization, the likelihood of that having a long term effect on you if it goes wrong is very low. Because even if you are rejected, people generally don't remember who they rejected. Like the Number of times. I'm sure as a podcast host, you have to reject lots of people. And I don't know that you would remember everyone you rejected unless they were really rude and offended you in some way or shape or form. But if it was not a great pitch, I think that it would be easily forgettable.

A (21:23)

So that was a percent true. Actually, yesterday we got a pitch and I was, gosh, this sounds familiar. And I went back and looked. We had rejected this particular topic in this pitch from the same person four times already. And that's why it sounded familiar. But outside of that, I mean, literally, this is the fifth time I never remembered. I never made that connection. So to your point, we hold on to it sometimes, but the person doing the rejection probably moved on.

B (21:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For you, for the person sending it, like if it wasn't a PR agency, if they're sending it themselves. I know a lot of people would be like, I could never pitch someone more than once. Like, I could never pitch someone once. Like they're going to use, sort of personalize it so much where in reality it's so forgettable. I think on the receiver's end. But yeah, so. So I think micro rejections are a great way to normalize just that. That muscle, which I like to think of as a muscle. I like to think of it as like going to the gym and how you might not go straight for the deadlift. You might pick up some dumbbells and start with smaller things before you go into like, the really big workouts. And so micro rejections are the dumbbells of rejection before you can make those big audacious asks which come with risk. A big audacious ask comes with risks, but these micro rejections come with very little risk.

A (22:47)

I love this concept so much. I wish somebody would have taught it to me very long time ago. Because to me, there is a double benefit. First, you're practicing and developing resilience around rejection. And second, as you're collecting no's, as you're getting these hundred rejections, you're bound to increase the amount of yeses you get. Right. Just the act of putting yourself out there over and over and over and over again is how we get yeses.

B (23:19)

Yeah, yeah. And it's. And it's how you get good at something. Like you're gonna get better at whatever you're doing if you're doing it over and over again.

A (23:29)

Totally. But it's so. Again, I feel like counterintuitive is sort of the theme of this topic is almost to focus. Well, you're saying to set a rejection goal. 100 rejections we're focusing on. And I'm putting in air quotes. The negative. When we're so much taught to focus on the goal or the outcome that we want. I love this concept. It feels like collecting a bunch of no's so that we. Yes. Get better. Yes. Get more resilient. And in the process of collecting no's, you're bound to collect more yeses.

B (24:07)

Yeah, Yeah. I think. And may need to be corrected on this. But if memory serves, I think HBR did a study on sales target, like the way people working in sales go about meeting their targets and found that there was like a 30% increase of deals being closed when people focused on collecting no's then collecting yeses. And I don't know if that's a psychological thing where it's. You are no longer stressing. And so that comes across as a more natural sales approach or if it's the fact that you're just getting out there more often because you're not worried about like. But I think on your earlier point of perfectionism, it breaks down perfectionism. There's no room for perfectionism when you're out chasing no's. Like.

A (24:50)

Right.

B (24:50)

And in the process, I think it can create just a more like audacious and genuine and authentic approach in the way you go about doing your. Putting yourself out there.

A (25:01)

Yeah. And it triggers the thought that I think often we have unconsciously that when people are uber successful or when they are really good at something or really talented or really smart, that they don't get rejected, that they've somehow figured it out. Right. When the reality is there is no evidence that shows that, like, you know, baseball hitting analogy often comes up. It's like the best of the best of the best. Hit the ball 30% of the time. I know I should never use sports analogies because I don't understand it. But like, you're gonna miss more than you make. I know from my background in finance and on the sales side, it was for every 10 opportunities, one. And that was considered good. Right. So you got nine rejections to get the one. Yes. And that was built in as a success model. And I think we often forget that. We forget that there is no out talenting or outworking or outperforming or out successing rejection. It's just an inevitable part. Yeah, true.

B (26:13)

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think it's because I think we have a natural inclination to share our wins like humans do. I have it. Everyone has it? You know, if you land a sale, you might go to your colleagues and say, hey, I just closed this great deal. But every time you didn't, every time you got ghosted, you're probably not going to them and saying, oh my gosh, I just got ghosted for the seventh time this week. It's, it's not fun. It doesn't bring you dopamine to share that it does. No one can pat you on the back. And so as a result, we end up seeing the wins and so we see the successes. If you see someone who's extremely successful, we always assume that they've got this winning streak, things are just going right for them when my theory is that they're much more rejection resilience and they have been able to tolerate a lot more no's, and that's why we're seeing all of these wins and successes.

A (27:03)

Yeah. I'll also tell you, interestingly enough, and it's anecdotal, but with my email community, I often share stories of personal rejection or failure or things like that. I get so much more outreach and response and connection from those emails than any where I share any type of win. Like, I shared a really embarrassing story and I got, I don't, I can't even. People are still talking about it. Like I ran into somebody a few weeks ago and they're like, oh my God, I'm still thinking about this. Right. And, and then I sent an email about the success of the podcast over the last year and I got a couple little congratulations, but nothing comparatively. So it's really interesting again, anecdotally, that sometimes that's actually what creates that connection and that thing that we're looking for. Okay, I have two more questions that I want to make sure we get to. The first is how can someone assess their current relationship with rejection and then sort of put a plan in place for whether it's 100 rejections, goal or microaggressions, or you know, lifting the dumbbells of rejection. Like how do we figure out where we're at with rejection and then put a plan in place?

B (28:21)

This is a hard question because I think it takes a lot of self awareness. You know, I, I wish there was like a one size fits all when it comes to this, but I, I don't. And this is just my theory. But for example, for you, you might be able to go and do the deadlift up rejection essentially. Like you might be able to go and make the biggest, most audacious ask ever and get a very Public rejection. And that might be good for you because you might have the confidence and resilience already to survive that and then go for the next thing. And so I think the self awareness bit comes into, like, where are you with your confidence right now? And um, what, yeah, what kind of background? What, what has your relationship with rejection been in the past? If you are someone that is thinks you will crumble at the thought of someone saying no to you, then I would definitely say like, go for those micro rejections. Go for the very small asks that are going to have non consequential. No, those nos are going to be non consequential. If you are someone that is just like, I need to get to the next level. I'm tired of doing tasks that are not moving the needle. I want my next big contract, I want my next big role. I have been doing this. And you just feel very confident and very impatient and you know that you can handle being told no, then go for bigger ones. I think it's just assessing kind of. Yeah. What your relationship right now with rejection is.

A (29:52)

Yeah, as you were talking, I was kind of thinking about, like, how have you handled the rejections you've gotten in the last 30 days or in the last seven days? And if the answer is, I haven't been rejected in the last 30 days, well then, friend, you're avoiding it. Right. Like I was rejected this morning, I was rejected yesterday. You know, like, I think kind of doing a quick assessment of how often or how frequently are you being rejected, that might just give you some insight into how much you're putting yourself out there. And that could be a starting point. And then as you were talking too, like the, when you're rejected, how do you handle it? How quickly do you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back into action? Is it depending on the rejection? Obviously, like, there are some that knock me down for sure, but there are some that it's like, okay, back to it two seconds later. I like the self awareness. I think a little bit of self evaluation too. Just looking at how you've responded recently can maybe give you some insight into where your next action items are, your next opportunities to put yourself out there. My last question, I'm going to think out loud, but you had said this when you were talking about pitching articles. I sometimes think that rejecting people can help build your resilience and your relationship with being rejected. As you said earlier, we say no to probably 80 to 90% of the podcast pitches we get. And I know because we do that, that it is almost never personal. Like, it almost never has anything to do with the person or even the pitch. To a certain extent. It's mostly. We already covered this topic. We're not interested in this topic. It's too vague or too narrow or there's bazillion reasons, as you said. So my question is, is there something to be said for practicing rejecting and building your rejection tolerance? And when we're rejecting, are there any best practices? We talked about being kind, right? Like, that helps. Are there any things that we should be mindful of so we just get better with reframing rejection in general?

B (32:09)

I love this. I mean, I think if any, if you can ever be in a position where you're the one rejecting, I think it's great for having empathy for others and having empathy for yourself in the same situation. So, like, talking about the articles, I remember I worked just kind of on a voluntary basis as a submission reader for publication. Like, back then. I don't know what it was a couple of years ago. And I was the one rejecting, like, a lot of submissions. And so that teaches you all the millions of reasons why you get rejected. So you have a lot more empathy for yourself. But on the topic of. And I think, you know, if you think like a dating context, just to go back, if you had to, like, I don't know if anyone's been in a position where you've been rejected by prospective partners and then found yourself in the position where you've rejected, and suddenly you understand them a lot better. You understand because when they rejected you, it was so personal. But then you realize, like, when you're the one rejecting, that actually these things can just happen because you're not compatible, and it's not because they're a terrible, terrible person that rejected you. That's an experience I've had. But best practices for rejecting, my advice would be being as clear as possible. And I know that that's hard if it's something that you have to do a lot. Like if you are, for example, running your podcast, you can't. You can't really send a detailed email response to every single person. But maybe you know the reasons why the common practice is why you reject. So maybe you can write like a templated response that you have an assistant send out where it's like, you know, we're inundated with pictures at the moment. We are accepting a very select few. And these are the. This is the criteria that usually they be. And then you've got like a list of criteria of very Specific topic as related to women's work. You know, here are some examples of very successful episodes. So I used to love it when editors would do that. If they rejected me and said, this is great, but blah, blah, blah. Here are some examples of some really successful articles. If you can get something that's a bit closer to this, that would work and you can do that in a templated way. So I think being clear, that removes, I think, a lot of the personal rumination that someone might have with the imaginary reasons why they got rejected 1,000%.

A (34:41)

And I couldn't agree more. I think we often do a disservice when we get rejected and when we're doing the rejection of hiding behind typical excuses like, oh, we don't have the budget. Sometimes I just want to roll my eyes and the back of my head and it's like, maybe that's true, but more likely this wasn't a priority for whatever reason, or you didn't want to direct budget toward this for whatever reason. I'd be more curious about that, trying whenever possible to be clear and kind. I couldn't agree more. Our best practices. Okay, I could ask you questions all day, Alice, but I want to make sure people have the opportunity to find and follow you and learn more. So Alice's podcast is called My Rejection Story, which is, and correct me if I'm wrong, Alice, but you just interview people about their big rejections, right?

B (35:29)

Yeah, yeah, I talk to them about their personal rejections, their professional rejections. Most of them are authors. So often about their books, their journey to getting their book published. Because that's a journey that's marked by a lot of rejection usually.

A (35:43)

Yeah, I love that. If you're trying to build this rejection resilience muscle and you want to let go of the idea that successful people aren't being rejected, that is where you should go. And then, of course, her website is Hustling writers. Com. We'll put that and all other ways to find and follow Alice in show notes. Alice, thank you so much. This has been a really eye opening conversation.

B (36:04)

Thank you so much, Nicole. This was fantastic and I really appreciate you having me here.

A (36:09)

My pleasure. All right, friends, before we wrap, let me remind you of a few takeaways from today. Rejection isn't a reflection of your worth. It's a step toward whatever it is that you want. Building resilience isn't about avoiding rejection. It's about learning from it and moving forward. And sometimes the biggest opportunities are hidden behind a whole lot of no's. So make it a goal to gather those no's, track them, celebrate them, wear them like a badge of honor. Because every rejection is proof that you're putting yourself out there. That you're taking risks and doing the hard, messy and important work of choice. Chasing your dreams. Because rejection doesn't define you, but how you respond to it does. So go get rejected. Go gather those no's. Go hit that rejection goal. Because contrary to what we've been told, that is absolutely woman's work.