CLASSIC EPISODE: How To Listen with Emily Kasriel

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: "CLASSIC EPISODE: How To Listen"

Podcast: This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil
Host: Nicole Kalil
Guest: Emily Kasriel
Release Date: July 6, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode explores the art and necessity of deep listening—what it is, why it matters, and how we can all get better at it. Nicole Kalil is joined by Emily Kasriel, a distinguished former BBC journalist and executive and now deep listening researcher, coach, and author of "Deep: Transform Your Relationships with Family, Friends and Foes." Together, they unpack why real, transformative listening is a rare skill in our distracted world and how reclaiming it can enrich relationships and even transform society.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Crisis of Listening

• Nicole Kalil (03:10): Sets the stage by noting that, despite being more connected than ever, people feel lonely and misunderstood. She argues that genuine, deep listening is a lost art that's essential for connection.
  • “We live in a culture that prioritizes talking over listening, debating over understanding, and charisma over empathy. … It scares the absolute shit out of me.” [03:26]
• Listening is presented as something more than just not interrupting—it’s about engaging “with your ears, brain, body, heart, and energy.”

Emily Kasriel’s Research & The Power of Deep Listening

• Shares insights from a study involving 1,000+ participants across 119 countries, revealing that when people truly listen, they feel more open, connected, and able to re-examine their own attitudes [04:56].
• The act of receiving empathy by practicing active listening increases one’s own willingness to share authentically.

The Difference Between Deep and Everyday Listening

• Emily Kasriel (06:02): Labels most listening as "lip service"—jumping to fix, solve, or respond, rather than immersing in the speaker's full experience, including what’s left unsaid.
  • “Let me solve your problem for you…we aren't really taking on board not only what the other person is saying but also their feelings and what they’re not saying, but communicating to us.”
• Introduces the concept of listening with a “third ear”—not just intellectually, but intuitively, tuning into emotions and the unsaid [06:30].

The Role of Silence

• Silence is spotlighted as a vital, if uncomfortable, element of real listening [08:06].
  • “When we give people a rich, spacious silence, we give them the space to unfold new thoughts.”
• Referenced Carl Rogers’ principle of “unconditional positive regard”—offering respect for personhood, not necessarily for beliefs [08:56].

The 8 Steps of Deep Listening [10:17]

Emily Kasriel outlines an eight-step method, punctuated with practical examples:

1. Create Space (physical & psychological)—make comfort and safety a priority (nature walk > open-plan office).
2. Listen to Yourself First—check your intentions, projections, and whether you’re prioritizing the relationship over being right.
3. Be Present—put aside distractions, center yourself for the conversation.
4. Embody Curiosity—don’t assume you already know, practice genuine curiosity.
5. Warm Gaze—maintain a compassionate, attentive gaze (except in cultures where direct gaze is disrespectful).
6. Silence—honor silence, recognizing its different types and its potential to lower anxiety, create space, and encourage creative solutions in conversation.
7. Reflect Back—articulate your understanding of the other's feelings and needs, including what’s not explicitly said.
8. Go Deeper—seek out underlying narratives, needs, and values to help speakers uncover hidden aspects of their own stories.

“We need to be present so they can be present.” – Emily Kasriel [11:17]

Demonstrating Deep Listening (Practical Example)

• Demonstration (20:26–23:57):
  • Emily demonstrates the method, asking Nicole, "What food reminds you of home?" and then listening deeply, reflecting back not just literal answers but implicit feelings—without peppering her with questions.
  • Notable Moment: [23:59]
    • Emily: “Just one [question]. I only asked you what food. … You decide where we go with a conversation, which is why it is so powerful…”
• Emphasized the ethical responsibility in deep listening: people may share more than intended, so boundaries and confidentiality need respecting.

On Questions and Advice: Less is More

• Emily Kasriel (26:28): Explains that asking lots of questions or giving advice often derails deep listening.
  • “By asking questions, I take the steering wheel away from you.”
  • Let the speaker guide the conversation; advice and solutions, even well-meaning, may not fit the other’s needs and generally have less impact if not arrived at by the speaker themselves.

Listening to Those We Disagree With

• Acknowledges that the hardest deep listening is with those we disagree with—but it's also where it's needed most [29:11].
• Recommends beginning with those we agree with to build skill and confidence, then applying principles more widely, even to family or workplace disagreements.
  • “Letting go of the feeling that we both need to agree can be really powerful. We don’t need to love each other. We want to try and understand...”
• Suggests the question: “What is it in your life experience which has led you to believe what you do?” as a bridging tool [30:23].

Listening to Yourself First—Prerequisite for Deep Listening

• If you know you’re not in a curious or open state, pause. Be honest:
  • “Hey, I really want to listen to you … At the same time, I’m noticing a resistance in myself. Can you just give me a moment to center myself so I can be truly open to understand?” [33:51]
• Authenticity and self-management are crucial for the integrity of deep listening.

Societal Impact

• Both guest and host agree: Reclaiming deep listening could bridge divides, reduce polarization, and foster more honest, compassionate communities.
• Nicole: "I have a firm belief that there are more things that connect us and that we have in common than separates and divides us.” [31:51]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nicole Kalil:
  • “Listening, really listening, is one of the most radical, generous and transformative things any one of us can do.” [34:42]
• Emily Kasriel:
  • “I like to think of our third ear being somewhat near our heart.” [06:32]
  • “When you give someone spacious silence, you give them the space to unfold new thoughts.” [08:10]
  • “If you haven’t come up with [the solution] yourself, you’re far less likely to implement it. But if you do the work and join the dots, it's yours.” [27:46]
• Demonstration (Practical):
  • Emily: “How many questions do you reckon I asked you?” Nicole: “Couple? Two or three?” Emily: “Just one.” [23:57]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:10 – Nicole introduces the crisis of true listening
• 04:08 – Emily describes her research on global listening habits
• 06:02 – The pitfalls of “lip-service listening” vs. deep listening
• 08:06 – The power of silence and its role in empathy
• 10:17 – The Eight Steps of Deep Listening explained
• 18:21 – How to use deep listening with children and in meaningful conversations
• 20:26 – Demonstration of deep listening in action
• 23:59 – Reflection on the exercise and ethics of deep listening
• 26:28 – Why asking questions and giving advice can hinder deep listening
• 29:11 – Strategies for listening to those with opposing viewpoints
• 33:28 – On self-awareness and honesty when not ready to listen deeply
• 34:42 – Conclusion: deep listening as radical, transformative leadership

---

Tone and Takeaway

This conversation is warm, candid, and practical, honoring the vulnerability and power in true listening. Nicole and Emily share stories, examples, and wisdom with humor and humility, inviting listeners to experiment with deep listening at home, at work, and especially across divides.

Key takeaway: Deep listening is not passive or easy—it’s an intentional act of leadership, love, and courage. Try Emily’s eight steps. Practice with those you love and those you struggle with. The world needs more real listeners.

---

For resources, Emily's book, and learning more, visit emilykasriel.com or read Deep: Transform Your Relationships with Family, Friends and Foes.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[B]

Listening to this podcast instead of doomscrolling. Smart move.

[A]

Another smart move getting help from one of State Farm's 19,000 local agents when

[B]

you choose to bundle home and auto bundling.

[A]

Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state. And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the machete spread. He's reaching for the buffalo wing. Perfect. Hang on. What's this? Oh, he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi. Zero sugar for today's match. It's poetry in motion. I am Nicole Kahlil, and you are listening to the this Is Woman's Work podcast, where together we're redefining what it means, what it looks and feels like to be doing woman's work in the world today. And today, we're going to talk about listening. And yes, I'm fully aware of the irony. But of all the skills we're losing at an alarming rate, listening might be the most endangered. And I'm not talking about how our kids never listen or how certain people in our lives seem to have selective hearing. I'm talking about real deep listening, the kind where you engage with not just your ears, but your brain, your body, your heart, and your energy. Where you don't interrupt or internally rehearse your response, where you don't try to fix or prove or win. Where the other person actually feels heard and seen. Because one of the things that people want most is to feel understood. And most of us don't. Maybe because we've never been taught how to really listen, or we don't value it, or we're too busy talking, scrolling, or mentally replying to emails while somebody tries to tell us something deeply personal. In my opinion, it's the reason why so many of us feel lonely, disconnected and divided. We're technically more connected than ever and somehow feel more isolated. We have more access to information than ever before and somehow less common ground. We live in a culture that prioritizes talking over listening, debating over understanding, and charisma over empathy. We fill space with words. We try to convince, correct, or bulldoze rather than asking genuine questions, practicing curiosity or, I don't know, shutting our pie holes long enough to actually listen to someone else and it scares the absolute shit out of me. So today we're going to learn how to listen and then we're going to practice with each other, with our kids and with the people we disagree with because I believe it's essential to our mental, emotional and spiritual health, maybe even our survival. And there's no one better to guide us through the how than today's guest. Emily Casriel has had a distinguished career at the BBC for over two decades as an award winning journalist, editor and media exec. But what brought her to this conversation is her deep commitment to, well, deep listening. She's developed the deep listening approach as a senior Visiting Research Fellow at King's College Policy Institute in London, blending research with real world experience as an accredited executive coach and workplace mediator. Her new book, Deep Transform youm Relationships with Family, Friends and Foes gets to the heart of what so many of us are missing and craving in our relationships today. Emily, thank you for being our guest and I'm going to start by practicing my own listening skills right now and ask you to share some of the learnings from your study of over a thousand people across 119 countries. So what have you learned about deep listening?

[B]

Well, I think that a lot of people feel quite hesitant to really listen. They don't know how and especially if people feel differently. So for this big project we recruited people from all over the world and the top four countries represented, just to give you a sense, were Malaysia, the uk, New Zealand and Iran. A friend of mine runs the BBC Persian Service so helped recruit those people. And so it was a really diverse bunch of people. But we found that when they learned how to deeply listen and this was compared to a control group because we work with academics that people felt more open to, more connected and more able to re examine their own attitudes, which was really exciting.

[A]

It kind of plays to this belief that I think many of us have that if we want to receive something, the best way to do that is to give it right. So if we practice deep listening, what I'm hearing you say is the outcome is that we feel more open to share and to be authentic and transparent in our communication when we practice deep listening. Am I understanding that correctly? Yeah.

[B]

I mean I think the very process of being curious about someone else's story because so often we just assume that we already know so we just preload our verbal gum with ammunition ready to fire rather than being truly open. But when we do step back and we honestly and authentically Listen to them with a curiosity to understand. They say things which increase our empathy and we feel more connected to them because we understand, understand them more fully.

[A]

Okay, so I guess share with us what the difference is between deep listening and what we're probably doing in our day to day lives.

[B]

Well, so many of us do lip service listening, even if, for example, we might have been on active listening courses. So I listen to you and say, yeah, yeah, I get it, I understand. So let me maybe pick up one word of what you said. Yeah, yeah, I get it. And now let me tell you how to. Let me help you. Let me fix you as you said earlier, let me solve your problem for you. Especially with our kids, we like to think that that's our role to solve their problem. We aren't really taking on board not only what the other person is saying, but also their feelings and what they are not saying, but they're communicating to us. If only we could truly listen. If only we could. One way to think about it, and this is something that Theodore Wright came up with, who is a student of Sigmund Freud. He said we can listen with our third ear. And I like to think of our third ear being somewhat near our heart. So we're not just listening with our intellectual brain, but we're intuiting what's really going on for the other person. And then after leaving an appropriate degree of silence, we have a go at summing up the essential core of what the person has said, what they have not said, and also of their emotions. And we offer it back with humility. So I don't say Nicole, oh, I get it. What you're saying is A, B and C. We rather say, I'm sensing that for you, this interview is something you've half done all the time, and yet it's a slightly different interview in the space of listening. Is that right?

[A]

Okay, so you mentioned the word silence and I think that that's hard for many of us. I'll be transparent. I often find listening but thinking about how to respond or what I'm going to say, and that to me is one of my biggest barriers to deeply listening. How do we practice allowing for silence? How do we. I don't know if leverage is the right word, but how do we get comfortable with silence and what part does it play in deep listening?

[B]

Silence plays a huge part. As somebody who used to be a serial interrupter and at many times, especially when I feel so strongly that I'm right, it's still an interrupter. Silence is truly hard and many of us also fear an awkward silence. We feel we're helping someone by completing their sentence for them, by filling in the gaps, by helping them to articulate something that they're struggling for words. But in doing so, what we're effectively saying is what I'm about to say is more important than what you're about to think. Because when we give people a rich, spacious silence, we give them the space to unfold new thoughts. And that what feels really inspiring. Because if you're able to be empathetic and warm hearted and give somebody what Carl Rogers, who's a fantastic psychologist born at the beginning of the 20th century in the US called an unconditional positive regard. And that means, I should say, for their personhood, not necessarily for their beliefs. We do not have to agree with them, but we can still respect their right to hold these ideas that like,

[A]

I actually kind of brought tears to my eyes. It feels very beautiful and respectful and kind to listen in a way that creates space for people. And I appreciate so much that you said that. That doesn't necessarily mean that we need to agree with them, but allowing somebody to exist unfold, as you said, I mean, what a honor that is for them and for ourselves. Okay, so then that leads me to the how to part of deep listening. I know you have an eight step process and I think that would be hugely beneficial to me and I'm sure everybody listening in because it's not a skill we're taught. Well, we're taught listening, but often badly. Right. Like as you mentioned earlier, we're initially taught by our parents who feel like the role is to advise, fix, solve, care for. And then we're taught it in gosh, there are lots of bad ways it's being taught. How do we listen?

[B]

You're quite right. In fact, if you think of a kid in the first year at school, their teacher says, listen to me. And what she actually means is obey me. Put your pencils away, be quiet. And that's why so many of us fear listening, because we think we have to obey once we listen. But to go back to the eight steps, the first one is about creating space. So that means psychological safety if somebody's not feeling safe. If you're an open plan office and you want one of your colleagues to explain why they're so late every day, open plan, not such a good idea. Nature far better or go for a walk. But it's also thinking about the physical surroundings so that if somebody's a bit hard of hearing, wood is much better. Material surroundings, which is why a posh restaurant works better than a cheap, noisy cafe. So that some people place that somebody's comfortable, both physically and emotionally, and maybe even cherished. Which is why I spent time with Japanese tea ceremony practitioners. So they would move, as I'm holding this mug in front of me, they move the mug to the exact position. So the most beautiful picture is to point to you. Everything is done with intention. For the speaker, the second step is listening to yourself first. Because if you are about to have a difficult conversation with somebody or talk to somebody who feels very differently, you first of all take the time out to say, what's really going on here? What am I projecting? You know, which are the characters in my shadows, in my past? Am I projecting onto the person getting in the way? And what's my real agenda? And wouldn't it be wonderful to actually think if perhaps the relationship is more important than proving that I'm right? Third step is about being present. Because so often we're distracted by our phone. We know how much money is being put into getting phones to distract us and with notifications. And it's not just external distractions like phones and noise. It's also what's going on in our own mind. So giving us a little time, just for a few breaths before those important conversations to become present. And that's what helps, as you were saying earlier, that honor of being able to truly let somebody else's thoughts unfold. We need to be present so they can be present. So the fourth step is about the qualities we talked about. Curiosity. Not assuming we already understand. And through that gateway of curiosity, we can lead to more empathy, more respect, and then being aware of our judgments and letting them go. We need judgments. If we didn't have judgments, we couldn't tell friend from foe. But we need to be aware of our judgments so we can move, move beyond them. The fifth step is the gaze. So unless you're somebody from first nation community trying to listen to an elder where it's not respectful to look, there's so much power in a gaze. And we're not talking like the French philosopher talked about the gaze in which prison officers would look at prisoners and be able to control them, we're talking about a warm, empathetic gaze. Often when I'm coaching people and I'm able to look them in the eye, they then go on a journey, a silent journey. They will often look up right as they think new thoughts, but knowing I'm staying with them, they'll go on a richer journey and then return to look at me and our gaze window will be re established. And that is very beautiful. And step six is silence and people. There's like nine different types of silence. The poet Paul Goodman wrote and actually did an illustration in my book about these nine different types. You know, there's the awkward silence, there's the animal ferocity face silence. There's also a companionable silence. There's different types of silence. And it's the same about the game. It's the more warm, empathetic silence we want to try and embody. And in fact, recent research showed in a paper called Silence is Golden, that even in negotiations, when both parties were using silence, they came up with many more creative win win solutions rather than the zero sum. If I win, you lose. And the reason being with silence, we could drop our blood pressure, our heartbeat is able to drop, our level of stress drops. So we're more in a state to be able to be listen and be open to. And then step seven is about reflecting back. And I was talking earlier about the words, the emotion, what lies between. And step eight is about the deeper narrative, go deeper. What's really going on for the other person. What are their needs that they're not even expressing or feeling they're allowed to feel, and what are their values. And if we can respect those things, they can come to a state of uncovering a different layer of their own story and perhaps feel brave enough to step inside a new story.

[A]

I'm here to confirm that I am fully committed to my European summer. Emotionally, spiritually, aesthetically, all of it. And the current star of the show, these 100% European linen pants from Quince that I plan on living in for the next three months. They somehow manage to feel comfortable enough for travel days, but still look like I have my life together, which, especially on sabbatical, is a complete illusion. Summer always makes me rethink my closet. And what I'm looking for is lighter fabrics. Better materials make pieces that feel effortless but still elevated. And that's exactly why I keep going back to Quint's. They have beautiful everyday pieces and their quality is incredible. But because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman, you're not paying insane luxury markups. And fair warning, quints is a slippery slope. You start with one pair of linen pants and suddenly you're browsing bedding and kitchen stuff at midnight, and your husband gets in on the action. And men's linen shorts start showing up in bulk. So go elevate your Summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com tiw for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com ti w w for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com tiww Uncovered windows can make your home feel up to 20 degrees hotter. Stay cool and save up to 50% off custom window treatments during the 4th of July mega sale at blinds.com from Outdoor Shades to room darkening blinds, finding the perfect fit is easy. Get free samples, expert design help and professional measure and install services or DIY with confidence and support every step of the way. Shop up to 50% off site wide plus huge savings on door busters right now during the 4th of July mega [e-mail] Hear that? That's the sound of busy. To a restaurant, all that shouting and banging might as well be a symphony. It means the long days and longer nights are paying off. Sure, it's noisy, but there's a worse sound. This not busy. Busy means business, which is why Toast gives restaurants the tools and tech they need to help them perform under pressure. Sounds pretty good, right? Toast built for busy. I mean, that was a masterclass. And I feel like every one of the eight I could recognize where I have opportunities to do and be better. And you know, I think we often learn best through experience and observation. So I'd love to maybe see if you could demonstrate this for us. But before we do that, I think the one thing that will be hard for people to hear is step five, the gaze. And I loved what you said about it being almost sending the message that I'm with you, I'm staying with you. Because that is true. I just did it right now. We look around while we're talking, while we're thinking, or we're trying to form our thoughts or figure out how we want to express them. And there is something so meaningful and powerful that when you come back and you can tell that somebody's still there, they're still with you. What? Again, what a gift. And I just keep thinking how I know I can be doing these things better. So, Emily, will you help us? I don't know if you can demonstrate or give an example or a story of where this eight steps of deep listening, how it would play out.

[B]

Yeah, so let's have an example. And I'll do my best, but maybe I won't do so well because I think deep listening is something you learn over a lifetime. And I Certainly know it's not something I always practice. And I would say, by the way, if I asked you, would you like a cup of tea and you practiced all those eight steps, I might just throw the tea back in your face or something. You know, it's not for every single conversation. It's for the conversations that really matter and for those where we disagree and also the way we listen to our children. And one thing I should quickly say about listening to kids is that so often we don't want to stay with the difficult stuff. So when your kid comes home from school and they say, I've had a really bad day and my teacher was really picking on me, and I know I would have said in the past, oh, I'm sure it wasn't like that. I'm sure, you know, she was just treating you equally. I'm sure it wasn't so bad. And all of those things to cheer somebody up, because that's another thing we do when we listen. Whereas, in fact, we just need to be able to stay with those difficult feelings. Sounded like you had quite a tough time at school today, huh? And that's all we're not saying, yes, your teacher picked on you. We're just acknowledging their feelings. And what I have certainly found with my kids is that after staying with the difficult feelings for a while and letting them explore them, they say might say something like, yeah, it wasn't actually so bad because I had a great conversation or, you know, I had a great talk, or I got a nice present from somebody or something else because they have been heard, rather than say, yeah, when they haven't been heard. So that's so powerful. But, hey, let's do a bit of a demonstration, Nicole. So if I. And I should say virtually is harder because I want to look you in the eye. So I'm trying to look at my camera at the top of my laptop screen, but in doing so, I can't see your body language, which I want to see, even though actually body language is not such a reliable indicator. But I want to in order to connect with you. So on the screen, what I try and do is move the image of the person, even shrink it so it's closer to the camera so I both can look at the camera and look at them more easily. So let me ask you, Nicole, what food reminds you of home?

[A]

Manicotti.

[B]

So I'm hearing you say manicotti with some enthusiasm.

[A]

Yeah, I actually had to think about it for a second because it's, you know, when you say the word Home I. My brain went to home like as in childhood or home as in now. And I ended up with manicotti because that's what my mom would make for celebrations or big occasions or when we had lots of people over. And it's something I pretend made for my now husband when we first started dating. And the reason I say pretend made is because I actually had my sister make it and claimed it as my own. But we don't eat it a lot now, but it still feels like home to me.

[B]

So I'm hearing you say in your childhood home, when you were growing up, whenever there was a big celebration on lots of people, that sense of people coming together associated with Manakote as a. As a way of drawing people together. And you on some level wanted to recreate it with your then boyfriend, now husband, but you weren't able to, but yet it was so important you got your sister to pretend to make it for you in order to be able to give that same nurturing to him. Is that right?

[A]

Yeah, I think. You know, I never really thought about it that way, but I think it is something very early on, he felt very safe and very comfortable for me and he shows his love through cooking. And it was something I wanted to give back, even though it's not something I'm great at. Cooking is not my skill set. And it's sort of ironic because he's gluten intolerant, he can't eat it anymore. But yeah, yeah, I. It just, you know, it's one of the foods that feels like home. I can actually kind of smell it and taste it and I just. That's when I knew walking in the door that it was going to be a good family meal or a good experience or something good had happened.

[B]

And so I'm hearing you say that when you. It's very visceral. It's very experiential that you feel it with all the senses. Even now as you're talking about it, I'm sensing that you are there in your childhood home and it being a signal of something good happening. And your husband who conveys love through food. It's something even though you haven't your skill sets not there, you still have the same intention to do that and to bring that signaling of good to your relationship and to him.

[A]

Yeah, again, I'd never thought about it that way, but I think that's what was unconsciously happening is it was a signal to him, but maybe even more so to myself, that this was good and that it was different. And safer than anything I'd experienced. Because it's funny, when I describe my relationship with Jay, it does feel like coming home.

[B]

So, yeah, that's so beautiful. It's good. And safer and coming home. What a beautiful way to describe your relationship. Thank you so much for sharing that, Nicole. We'll finish that little sort of exercise here, but I just want to say, how many questions do you reckon that I asked you roughly there?

[A]

Couple? Two or three?

[B]

Just one. I only asked you what food? Because if I was asking you questions, I would have asked, what is manicotte? I was thinking, this must be a kind of like panna cottage, like a milky custard. I hadn't got a clue. But had I gone down that route, we would have took recipes and you wouldn't have shared so much. And I feel so connected to you now. And I feel, and I know it's quite emotional with you talking about your husband and that sense of comfort and coming home. And I feel that this deep sense of connection to you and understanding you in the space of three minutes. Now, I would say there's ethical things around this because as you can see, people end up sharing perhaps more they intended. And if you're in a professional context, you need to say, whoa, wait a minute, I just want to stop there and check that you're happy and what you, you know, how you take that information, it is confidential if it hasn't agreed to be shared. So in my book, I have a whole chapter on the ethical side of things, because that's super important. In my book, I've got a chapter on the ethical guidelines around deep listening, because people can share more than they mean to. And also you need to know what you're comfortable bearing because somebody might share more than you're willing to bear or that you can hold. So you need to think around the boundaries of that as well. But that aside, it was really beautiful, the exchange. I don't know. How did you feel, Nicole?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I was surprised at how quickly it felt deep and personal. And, you know, we were talking about something that mattered. You connected to something that probably felt obvious from the outside looking in. But I'd never made that connection before. And what was really interesting or what is really interesting? And by the way, I'm really glad you mentioned the ethical and confidentiality components of this. I do think that's incredibly important. But I think we often think that the best way to listen is to ask questions. At least that's what I've been told a lot. Practice, curiosity, I think a lot of times we link that with asking a lot of questions. And yet you only asked one. So can you dive a little bit deeper into why asking questions may not always be the best way to make somebody feel truly heard, or even giving advice, which I think is a lot of our natural response. Why do those two things not really help as much as we may think that they do?

[B]

First of all, asking questions. As a journalist, I thought my questions were fantastic. I could get to the very core of an issue with my brilliant questions. But what we do when we ask questions, as in that example, had I asked about what was wasn't. Panna cotta. I can't remember.

[A]

Manicotti. Yeah, it's okay.

[B]

Manicotto. It's a pasta dish. Okay, I didn't know that. But manicotti. By asking questions, I take the steering wheel away from you. I decide what avenues we're going to have a conversation around. Whereas when I give it to you and I authentically and open without trying to manipulate you, what I truly understand is what is going on for you. You decide where we go with a conversation, which is why it is so powerful, especially when people aren't often heard, which includes our kids. And particularly if you're a boss at work, the people in your team, it will be surprising for them that you allow them to talk about what really matters. And of course, it's so fantastic because then they surface concerns and ideas which otherwise would remain hidden. With regarding our desire to solve and make things better, what we're doing is coming up with a solution that works for us, and it's not necessarily a solution which works for the other person. And not only that, even if it is a good solution, if you haven't come up with it yourself, you're far less likely to implement it. But if I give you the space to join the dots yourself, you will have done the work and you'll be far more likely to embrace and put into effect. Whatever solution you come up with, it's yours. You've created it for you.

[A]

I think you're dead on. When we ask questions, I should say, and be responsible in my communication, when I ask questions, especially in my work, there is a leading component to it. I'm trying to get someone somewhere, or potentially even a manipulation component, when I'm talking to somebody with opposing viewpoints, right? Asking questions to try to get them to see the folly of their ways or whatever, and how powerful it is to just simply be curious and allow space for somebody to say and share. I couldn't agree more. And my experience aligns with, if it's. If it feels like our own idea, we're so much more likely to do something with it. Okay, so my last question is around deep listening, specifically with people who have opposing viewpoints or who you want to punch in the face or who you can't possibly fathom ever agreeing with. How do we do this? And how important is it that we

[B]

do this, how we do it? First of all, it is hard. It is truly hard. It is the hardest. Which is why I. Which is why I suggest we try, first of all, deep listening to people we agree with and people who we don't have these challenges with. But, you know, listening to people we disagree with isn't only people who think different politically. They might be within our own family as well. And people who we're closest to, often those are actually hardest to listen to. So how we do it is be aware that the other person has a reason for believing what they do. One good question to ask is, what is it in your life experience which has led you to believe what you do? Because once somebody shares their life story, we relate to them more as a human being, less than an ideology, and therefore we find it easier to connect even if we don't still agree. I think letting go of the feeling that we both need to agree can be really powerful. We don't need to love each other. We want to try and understand, understand them in an open way. And listening to ourselves first and realizing what it is about the other person that triggers us so much. Often when I find if somebody really upsets me or triggers me, it's often not about them, it's often about me. And when I realize that, I can let it go and be more open to understand them. And it feels really exciting, I should say, when you do that, first listening to somebody who you think has abhorrent ideas and they are able to explain them to you and you feel a connection, it feels powerful, it feels exciting, and it is, I believe, truly important in the world. Because we know about the scourge of polarization. Even though when we carried out research for the book, we found out, and this is across the USA with YouGov and more in common, that people wanted to listen to each other, people wanted to learn to listen to people who think differently. So there is a desire to understand people who are different. And the people who are in the media are often the extremes. And we tend to have a lot of misinformation about people who vote for the other side There's a lot of research around that. So we might be making generalizations. We put people in a box rather than to understand their full humanity. And when we open ourselves up, all sorts of things become possible. And we need to work together, I believe, in order to tackle some of the biggest, you know, challenges facing our society and our world.

[A]

Yeah, I have a firm belief that there are more things that connect us and that we have in common than separates and divides us. Now that doesn't sell media. Right. So we do see that great polarization. But I loved what you said about and that question about what in your history or life experience has you believing this, I think, is what you said, something around those lines. Because I often think if I grew up at that time in that environment, in that town, in that family, what would I believe? And you know, we're so quick to want to believe that our perspective is right and best. And deep listening, I think, allows for that connection and that space to allow for other possibilities and different perspectives. So I said my last question was going to be my last question, but it triggered another, which is in the eight steps of deep listening. The second one is listening to yourself first. If you know going into a deep listening opportunity that your intention is to prove or to convince, or if you're just not entering that conversation with a lot of emotional maturity or curiosity or what have you, what would you recommend to stop, to acknowledge, to clean yourself up until you can get to that place before having the conversation? Like, what do we do when we, if we're being honest with ourselves, know we're not really in the best place or position to practice deep listening.

[B]

I think all of the above. I think it is about being authentic. If we feel comfortable to say, hey, I really want to listen to you, I'm really curious to understand why you believe what you do. At the same time, I'm noticing a resistance to myself to listen. So can you just give me a moment to center myself so I can be truly open to understand?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, how powerful that would be and what a level of trust I think it would build immediately and create that space for, you know, we're going to have transparent and open communication. And I just demonstrated that in some way. Emily, I often want to read my guests books, but this is one of the few times where I'm not just going to read it myself. I'm going to give a copy to my husband and even see if my daughter will go through it and practice these eight steps together. I can see how transformational that will be in my relationships, in my own life, and frankly, for our communities and the world at large. So thank you for being here today. Thank you for writing this book, and thank you for your incredible work.

[B]

Well, thank you so much for a really beautiful conversation and for your honesty and transparency too, Nicole.

[A]

My absolute pleasure. Okay friend, the book again is called Deep listening. Go to bookshop.org or wherever it is that you buy books. Go to your local bookstore. Let's keep them in business. And Emily's website is emilycasriel.com, we'll put that link and all the other links in show notes so you can find and follow her. And at the end of the day, I hope that you're walking away from this conversation not with just ideas, but with a gut level, knowing that listening, really listening is one of the most radical, generous and transformative things any one of us can do. Not to be liked. Not to win an argument, not even to be right, but to understand, to connect, to create space for others, to exist, to be heard and to feel seen. It's not easy. Not with our never ending to do list, jam packed schedules and all the shoulds and the supposed tos. It's especially not easy when emotions run high, opinions clash, and you're five seconds away from flipping a table. But it is necessary. We're craving it. And like most things that matter, the best way to receive it is to give it. And let me be real clear. Listening. Deep, intentional, honest listening isn't passive or weak. It's powerful. It requires great strength, maturity and confidence. It's leadership. Real leadership. Not the ranting, preaching, telling kind we see paraded around for sound bites and clickbait. Deep listening, the kind that creates connection, builds trust and allows for actual progress, is leadership, love, care, kindness and connection at their highest forms. And yes, it is also woman's work.

[B]

Hey there.

[A]

It's Wayfair here, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app when you spot it. A brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill too. All right. Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast expert setup on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app.

[B]

Wayfair Every style, every home.

[A]

A burst pipe, a dead water heater, the AC calling it quits who do you call? HomeServe is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs with plans covering stuff basic homeowners insurance usually won't Instead of scrambling for a contractor, you make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust HomeServe right now. Go to HomeServe.com podcast for 50% less your first year. That's HomeServe.com podcast savings compared to renewal Price void In Florida, the most memorable gifts aren't found, they're made. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you pick any product, a mug, a card, a tote, a phone case and make it personal. A photo, a name, an inside joke. The kind of gift that actually fits the person. That's what 30 million customers have been coming back to Zazzle for over 20 years to find right now. Save 25% on your first [e-mail] that's zazzle.com make it zamazing.